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From the FA page rejection (i feel this was a very helpful review and so I am discussing it here.

"The article is woefully unbalanced, therefore not comprehensive, favoring an account of his commercial releases and his private life based on media sources, while almost completely failing to cover his basic artistic skills and talents as, primarily, a singer and dancer, and also actor, and his involvement in music production and choreography."

I agree. Somebody previously offered to make a section on his musical abilities which I agreed with, and which was rejected by other members. This is now appropriate.

"On this basis, the article needs considerable amount of additional material, sections such "Training, Style, Influences", comparisons or other measure of his abilities with professional peers, and so forth."

Agreed. Vice article - influences: Fred Astaire is a huge one for him. Training - Vegetarian, rigorous strict schedule, religious, says his melodies come from God. Style - Pop with rock (black or white), soul (rock with you), R&B (99% of Dangerous), Rap (2bad, Jam, track with wyclef on blood on the dance floor), dance (blood on the dance floor), gospel (heal the world, they don't care about us) , heavy metal (beat it) and industrial (morphine) influences.

"This imbalance also creates a bias towards MJ's (sensationalized) media image rather than a rounded treatment of all the relevant aspects,"

I completely agree. 210%.

"The lead is not neutral and not particularly readable"

I agree, but I note this is now practically fixed.

"The lead gives equal emphasis to MJ's entertainment career and his controversial personal life."

I actually believe that's unbiased.

"While this is perhaps warranted in the lead, freely mixing career and "media findings" without distinction is not IMO encylopedic."

Agreed, the article should not be like this all the way through, it should be more interesting than that.

""King of Pop" and "Wakco Jacko" are not equivalent terms. His marriages and children are included up front presumably only because of his notorious association with "children"."

Agreed, they are not equiv, but they are both warranted there, I feel his children are worthy of mentioning, he did after all dangle the youngest off of a balcony.

"there are too many citations, which is entirely distracting: ideally, the lead should be citation free, summarizing material developed (and cited if necessary) in the main text."

I agree here. Let's duplicate the material in the relevant part of the text and only have that cited.

"Business career is not covered A brief mention and a link to a three-paragraph article, Michael Jackson finances, do not adequately cover his business dealings. The Beatles catalog, his lavish spending, his sponsorship deals, are all of an MJ proportion equivalent to his "kiddy" stuff, yet they are given little mention."

I personally am currently writing a version of this article with information on the ATV buyout which is factually accurate, I will do this, anyone is free to add the lavish spending. Bashir documentary quotes on his spending between the shop owner and bashir would be good.

"*Periods of success, particularly Thriller area, not accurately presented This is a writing issue. I don't find the different stages of his career are well-explained. The stats are there, but there is no summary of the incredible wave of popularity around Thriller, the impact of the moonwalk, the cross-demographic appeal."

Agreed. Again, I have fixed this in my version of the article, this doesn't need doing by anyone else, I've got it covered and it will make it into the article at some point.

"The article skims over these areas, and relatively lavishes attention on his trials and publicized personal life."

Agreed!

"MJ as dancer not covered His abilities as a dancer, which have been widely noted in many media, are not explained."

Yes. Needs a section on dancing, musical instruments, vocals (i'm working on this with the MMSS parts in songs where he sings certain notes (high, low, money).

"MJ behavioral theories are not mentioned There has been much published speculation about MJ's "behaviors". Considering the amount of coverage given his personal trials and tribulations, a summary of the analyses and speculation about his behavior deserves some mention."

I'm not sure a page on MJ's behaviour from some shrink who just reckons he's a paedo and is using their qualifications to push that theory is entirely a good idea.

"some of the sources are questionable. That every single source is online bothers me too."

Agreed, something needs to be from newspaper articles found in a library, and something needs to be from books with sourced ISBN numbers.

"Suggests (rightly or wrongly) a Google copy and paste job."

Interestingly, the article has a number of parts similar with the about.com article... I'm working on fiddling with that at some point.

"What about books, journals and (pre web) press coverage?"

Well said.--Manboobies 19:48, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I can certainly help with obtaining newspaper articles on Jackson from Factiva. And if you want to give me specific parameters for the question below on recessive/dominant characteristics for skin colour in biracial children, I can search one of the scientific/medical databases I have access to. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 22:30, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I can also give you some book excerpts. Just a quick search of his name in the database brings up a number of apparently relevant books about music and culture, including one about African-American culture identity that includes a discussion of his marriage to Lisa Marie Presley and the fact that he was accused of "molest a 14-year-old LA boy, whom he paid an undisclosed sum, rumored to be over $25 million." Let me know if you think some books and/or newspaper articles would help and I will make them available. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 22:48, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Charts

"#1 Pop, #1 R&B" What is that? The global Pop charts? Or just the american one? (I think thats it) This is not America Misplaced Pages so it must be said. 亮HH 05:31, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, yes it is refering to the US TOP 100 (i.e Pop Charts), R&B Charts is just one of the categories. Actually, when an artist hits the Charts it is always concerning the US Charts and/or UK Charts. Due to history reasons, those 2 charts (UK ans US) were always the reference but since music industry and music associations increased wordlwidely, other country charts turned out to be a heavy rating such as Japan, Australia, France, Germany, Brazil, China, etc... Michael Jackson is the only artist to have sold worldwide in a lot of countries (poor, developing and rich countries). That's why it sounds a little weird that The Beatles, Elvis Presley or Frank Sinatra (and many others still) have sold millions and millions worldwide : they have sold in America especially and in Europe (UK, France, Germany, Danemark) but since the 80's the world music industry changed substancially. It's not my opinion, it is the truth, the only pop artist who get through different countries and people by selling records and performing live concerts in those 5 continents is definately Michael Jackson. Readerweb 19:41, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Berlin

Made a new section from the special Berlin Controversey page. It's pretty much a rough paste, though I also cleaned up some other sections and the part about Living with MJ. Please clean up that section if you can. Thanks! Avraham 22:03, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Biggest selling solo artist

The introduction to the article should be amended to make it clear that Michael is the biggest selling solo artist in history, as stated on hsi official website. This explains why he was given the title "The King of Pop" by his fans.—This unsigned comment was added by 195.93.21.131 (talk • contribs) .

Being the supposed biggest seller hardly "explains" the King of Pop moniker. However, I do believe Elvis Presley is ESTIMATED to have sold more records than Jackson. At the end of the day it can really only be an estimate. Chrisc21

No, Michael has sold more because most young people have never heard of the obese drug addict, and all young balck people hate him for stealing black music. —This unsigned comment was added by 195.93.21.131 (talk • contribs) .

According to the Guiness Book of World Records, the top selling album of all time is Michael Jackson's Thriller . There is no official tracking mechanism for worldwide sales, so this figure cannot be verified. According to the RIAA , the top band is the Beatles and the top solo artist is Elvis Presley followed closely by Garth Brooks. However, in the top albums , Michael Jackson's Thriller takes second only to the Eagles. In the UK, Michael Jackson takes two slots in the top ten albums of all time with Bad and Thriller. DavidBailey 02:25, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, some are having a conversation about best-selling music artist, and have given a reference that shows sales of 60 million for the Thriller album, although it definitely is not an authoritative source. DavidBailey 17:57, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Photo

Can somebody please change the photo?

There are some better photos of Michael Jackson and I simply can't bear to look at the one which is there at the moment.

I think that's actually quite a good pic and you could do a lot worse! Cheers, Ian Rose 03:43, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Thriller's global sales

The article claim's Thriller has sold 60 million worldwide.

The source for the claim though isnt reliable. It cites a fake IFPI list that circulated the internet earlier this year: the IFPI have never released such a list and the majority of the figures are inaccurate.

A better indication of the albums sales comes from the sleeve of The Ultimate Collection, and official box set released in 2004:

"As of September 2004, Thriller remains the biggest selling album of all time, with over 47million albums sold around the world!"

If you add Thriller's sales for 2004 and 2005, the album will be around the 49million mark now (it still sells about 1million a year w

CHINESE HISTORY RELATING TO MICHAEL JACKSON'S TRIAL IN 2005

• XIA (Prehistory - 1760BC)
• SHANG (1760 - 1110BC)
• ZHOU (1110 - 221BC)
• QIN (221 - 206BC)
• HAN (206BC - 220AD)
• THREE KINGDOMS: JIN, NORTH AND SOUTH DYNASTIES (220 - 581AD)
• SUI (581 - 618AD)
• TANG (618 - 907AD)
• FIVE DYNASTIES PERIOD (907 - 960AD)
• SONG (960 - 1279AD)
• YUAN (1279 - 1368AD)
• MING (1368 - 1644AD)
• QING (1644 - 1911AD)
• MODERN CHINA (1911 - PRESENT AD)

orldwide...).Rimmers 16:34, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Michael is the biggest selling artist in history.

Well that claim is highly disputable - ever heard of The Beatles? Elvis? But that doesn't matter - this isn't about who is the biggest selling - its about Thriller's sales and the inaccuracies within the article about the claim its sold 60million when it hasn't. Rimmers 18:39, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

According to the International Federation of the Phonographic Industries in 2006, the Beatles are the biggest popular music act of all time, with 400 million albums sold (50 million more albums than their runner-up, Michael Jackson).

Elvis was just a fat racist who stole black music. Good that he died on the can.

Yawn. And if those figures are from that all time biggest selling list that was going around the internet recently, then they are false. The IFPI has never released such a list. ANYWAY: who cares - I'm talking about Thriller's sales, not all time biggest selling artist. Rimmers 23:33, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I would put money on it having sold more than 47 million. I saw that figure quoted about 10 years ago by both 'Guinness' and "The Top 10 Of Everything" books - this being prior to the Special Editon re-release in 2001. I think it would be safe to assume Thriller has broken the 50 million barrier by now. Unfortunately I have not seen any definitive source on this. With the re-release, frequent chart appearances throughout the world, and the US re-certifications, someone could tally it all up I guess. To whomever said it "hasn't sold 60 million" - says who?? Chrisc21 16:00, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Thriller sold more than 60 million many years ago. motowon albums are not major releases - oz

See info in Biggest selling solo artist section above. I have added references. DavidBailey 17:53, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Thriller had sold well over 25 million copies by March 1984, so it has to have sold over 60 million as of 2006.

Headings

I think the headings need to change. Some of them sound clumsy. I also think there is too much info in the post-trial section. There's more text about stuff that happened in 6 months than stuff that happened over in decade. Just some thoughts. Street walker 13:18, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Which headings? I also think the lack of detail in initial sections is a problem that should be fixed with more detail in them, rather than less in the latest news section.--Manboobies 06:22, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

"Which headings"? these ones...

• 1 The Beginning of Jackson's Career: 1969–1980

that one's fine --Manboobies 08:42, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

• 2 Chart Domination and Media Controversy: 1982–1992

I renamed that one to that because jackson quite obviously dominated the charts between those dates. I didn't think it needs changing --Manboobies 08:42, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

• 3 'Healing the World', alleged Improprieties and Further Career: 1993–2002

I like it better than the one before that put this article into a dodgy tabloid zone. but yes it's still crap.--Manboobies 08:42, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

• 4 Berlin: baby at the balcony causes controversy

agreed, it's dodgy and is inherent tabloid fodder of which this article already has too much.--Manboobies 08:42, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

• 5 Trial and acquittal: 2003–2005

hmm. not sure about this one.--Manboobies 08:42, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

• 6 Post-trial life and career: present

again, not sure what you'd change this too, this section needs a once over, perhaps without a strip down of content. a theme perhaps. --Manboobies 08:42, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

• 7 New album: 2007

Street walker 07:17, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think this should be a section. We're on a timeline structure, not a album by album thing, I've put great effort into rewriting the thriller era one, i'm not changing it again.--Manboobies 08:42, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

i deleted the written part of 2003 - 2006 ,oz

Error on "2006 sexual allegations"

These allegations were filed in 2004 and related to an alleged incident in 1984. The accuser Joseph Bartucci claimed supressed memories he managed to recover following the worldwide sweep of media exposure of the Arviso case.

This ridiculous civil case was dismissed by a judge in April 2006.

where does it say 2006?--Manboobies 08:44, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

It says: "In 2006, allegations of sexual assault were leveled against Jackson by a man who claims Michael Jackson molested him, intoxicated him with drugs and alcohol, and forced him to undergo unnecessary cosmetic surgery. Michael Jackson's lawyer Thomas Mesereau, who successfully defended him against allegations of child molestation in 2005, said "the charges are ridiculous on their face. They will be vigorously defended." Since this news came to light in early 2006, nothing further has happened regarding the supposed charges."

However, I've just realised this may be a completely different case? I'm losing track with all these extortion attempts. --Chrisc21 18:06, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

yes it is--Manboobies 06:34, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Why is there a completely vague summary of some random 2006 allegations and no mention of the Bartucci case though? --Chrisc21 23:40, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Here is a link to some information on those 2006 allegations, could do with improving the complete vagueness of it all http://cbs2.com/entertainment/local_story_114210511.html

How should we refer to him as?

Instead of writing Michael Jackson all the time, is it better to refer to him as Michael or Jackson? Street walker 12:34, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

In the article it should be "Jackson". Michael is too personal for an encyclopedia. But here on the talk page it doesn't matter. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 12:44, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

What more can I give?

see:] The song was a blatent rip off of Jackson's first charity single combined with Earth song and Heal the world.--Manboobies 04:21, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

That said it's rather good--Manboobies 04:21, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Listen to the chorus of "I Just Can't Stop Loving You" and then listen to the chorus of "What More Can I Give". Notice the similiarities? Street walker 08:04, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Other than Earth Song and Heal The World being "world conscious" records - there's absolutely no similarity to What More Can I Give? The concept is virtually identical to We Are The World. --Chrisc21 18:08, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

No! there is, listen carefully, the verse in the intro is the same as part of Earth song. And Street Walker is right, I just can't stop loving you is in there too. It rips off songs from his earlier career. It's the most dervivative pap i've ever heard. And yet it's still great! --Manboobies 06:23, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

How many people will have to die before we will take a stand How many children will have to cry, before we do all we can If sending your love is all you can give To help one live, mmm ^sounds like earth song, lyrically similar.

Just sending your prayers Is something you feel Helping one heal ^We are the world melody.

What have I got that I can give (What have I got that I can give, tell me) What have I got that I can give, yeah, oh To love and to teach you To hold and to need you What more can I give (what more can I give, yeah) ^flips between Man in the mirror and I just can't stop loving you.

What have I got that I can give (It's not a lot to give, just a little bit) What have I got that I can give (Everyone should be a part of it) To love and to teach you To hold and to need you What more can I give ^I just can't stop loving you.--Manboobies 06:33, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh yeah! You're completely right. They're all songs, consist of words and music, last about 4-5minutes - sheesh what a rip off! Streetwalker! Come on now. ----Chrisc21 23:44, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Nationality

As per Misplaced Pages guidelines, his nationality should be in the 1st para. Design 03:04, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Header dispute

I just want to take one last opportunity to jump in on this.

I don't believe that the issue at hand is the notability of the terms. Both are used in widespread context, both are notable. The problem is the way the sentence is currently phrased. It provides zero context, and implies legitimacy for a potentially illegitimate term.

The failing here is that at no point has there been a negotiation to find a way to include the terms in an encyclopedic and NPOV manner. For my own opinion: I think the terms have merit to be included in the first paragraph, but not in the off-hand namedropping manner that exists now.

The poll below is entirely flawed, as it only discusses including them or not, not how they're included. Arbitration won't solve that. Again, I think it would be acceptable to have both included, but the current version is grossly unfair to one point of view.

My suggestion: spend some time working on a version that people can live with. I think even those who dislike one of the terms would have less of an issue with it if it were provided in proper context. Adding one sentence to provide context would in no way damage the article. (And I readily submit that it would improve it.)

I'll again offer my edit, but I will accede and not personally add it to the article again:

Michael Joseph Jackson (born August 29, 1958) is an American musician and entertainer whose successful music career and controversial personal life have been at the forefront of pop culture for the last quarter-century. Jackson has often been referred to in the media by the nicknames The King of Pop, particularly during the peak of his musical fame, and Wacko Jacko, a nickname given to him by the tabloid press as result of his seemingly eccentric behavior.

I do not have a vested interest in this debate, thus I will pull myself out of it. At the same time, I firmly believe that the issue has been caught in an Us vs Vandals problem at the expense of article content and true consensus. -- ChrisB 22:13, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

If 4 pages of archived talks plus a vote show most of us want the names there then that is consensus. As you only stepped into this debate in order to continue to wage your war of attrition and hate against me, which began with your repeated troll like behaviours, repeated reversions and the deletion of the first article I created and it's subsequent merger into another article just so you could feel like you had some how achieved something, do you feel like you have? Because it's just an encyclopedia. While you're reading up on that "Polls are evil" which says we shouldn't try to summarise a subject in one sentence and then vote on it, not that we should use a poll to officially cement an already reached majority consensus you might want to check out Misplaced Pages:WikiHate as well. Ciao.--Manboobies 22:40, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Seriously? The version I'm offering is less of a summary than the one that's there now. The version that's there now is far too simplistic, and that's the problem. I'm trying to add content and solve a dispute, not "summarize a subject in one sentence". Can anyone read the voting and say that there's consensus, and precisely what that consensus is? I don't see it. I see a handful of keeps, a handful of remove one or the other, and a handful of remove both. I don't see a majority position there, and, regardless, voting "consensus" requires something more than a simple majority.

And I feel like the three or four of you have gotten so caught up in the battle that you've neglected the dissenting opinions. You don't have to "appease" them, but you should at least keep them in mind.

Furthermore, if the so-called consensus is "keep both names in the lead" (as the poll suggests - the poll does not specify lead sentence or lead paragraph, and it's too late to make that specification), the edit I'm offering maintains that. It's still in the lead, but with appropriate context. I still insist that the people upset with the nicknames would be less inclined to vandalize if the nicknames weren't simply namedropped at the immediate beginning of the article.

Again, not my battle. If you want to try to make this about me, fine. But I don't think this problem will solve itself after I've pulled myself out of it. -- ChrisB 04:07, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Utilizing controversy to forstall changes to very-POV Michael Jackson intro paragraph

I have been watching the ridiculous nit-picking, haggling, arguing, and stalling going on regarding the inclusion of nicknames in Michael Jackson's opening paragraph. It is obvious that the tactics used by those who feel the current very POV and non-encyclopedic opening paragraph is what they want are using the debate to maintain the existing state of the opening paragraph.

What has been discussed ad nauseum is that there are four camps: one wishes to have one name remain, one wishes to have the other name remain, one wishes to remove both, and one wishes to keep both. The voting has been inconclusive as there is not an obvious overwhelming support one way or another. And yet, action must be taken. The current opening paragraph is obviously wrong.

I have proposed a compromise that keeps both nicknames in the opening paragraph, but removes them from the opening sentence and explains which groups use the nicknames so as to remove the slander component to the current paragraph. It uses actual phrases from the discussion from those who have been trying to resolve this rather silly feud. I think this is the best compromise that exists right now, even though I feel that neither nickname belongs in the opening paragraph and should be discussed, as it is, later in the article. I feel this should satisfy everyone's demands, except perhaps those who really are just trying to call names which is slanderous and against Misplaced Pages policy.

If someone has a valid, thoughtful reason why the following paragraph cannot replace the current one, I want to hear it. Otherwise, I think consensus has been reached, and this edit should be permitted by the revert watchdogs that are misusing this feature to further their ends.

Michael Joseph Jackson (born August 29, 1958) is an American musician and entertainer whose successful music career and controversial personal life have been at the forefront of pop culture for the last quarter-century. He has at times been referred to by fans, promoters, and the popular media as The King of Pop, or so-called King of Pop, and by detractors and the tabloid media by the pejorative name, Wacko Jacko.

Thanks. DavidBailey 19:27, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

First off, and before getting into the meat of your compromise, please explain to those present why the pejoratives should be removed from the opening sentence (as opposed to blanket changing without discussion, and giving an opportunity for those present to add their commentary) to begin with.

While the debate has gone on awhile, stepping in and making wholesale changes without discussion will do nothing but garner antagonism from those present, and turn into the same sort of revert war that has permeated the topic for months now.

Secondly (and more personally, in my own opinion), I think your compromise on one hand (moving the nicknames from the first sentence to the second) is good, content-wise, I find it to be overly wordy, especially considering that a further explanation is contained later in the article. I would propose the second sentence to read: "He has been referred to as King of Pop and Wacko Jacko."

Any further exposition should, IMO, be placed later in the article. --Mhking 22:41, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I think David Baliey's suggestion is an ideal solution to a rediculous argument. This is an encyclopedia article, so it should be a bit wordy and it is important to stress who gave him those nicknames.

However, I feel the real problem here is you all seem too worried about how these bloody names will fit. There is so much to say about Jackson and yet the opening paragraph inexplicably focuses on some nicknames that he occasionally gets called. aren't there more important things to write about? Who gives a toss about his nicknames? Stop arguing about this, it's sad.--Crestville 22:50, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Crestville, I think the problem is that the opening paragraph, and those staunchly defending it, have become the loud drunken dealer at the Oriental in the movie Tombstone. All the reputable types are staying away because of it. Once we fix the opening, serious work can commence on the remainder of the article. The opening paragraph sets the tone. DavidBailey 01:08, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Mhking, my reason is that this is an encyclopedia. There are standards when it comes to encyclopedias. One is that you don't use nicknames when introducing the reader to the subject. Those follow later in the article. To illustrate, here is the beginning of the Encyclopedia Brittanica article (and yes, I realize Misplaced Pages isn't EB):

"Michael Jackson: born August 29, 1958, Gary, Indiana, U.S. Michael Joseph Jackson American singer, songwriter, and dancer who was the most popular entertainer in the world in the early and mid-1980s. Reared in Gary, Indiana, in one of the most acclaimed musical families of the rock era, Michael Jackson was the youngest and most talented of five brothers whom his father, Joseph, shaped into a dazzling group of child stars known as the…"

Now I don't have a subscription to EB, so I can't (and shouldn't anyway) give the remainder of the article. But it is likely that it examines both the highs and lows of Michael Jackson's career. Casually slinging around such emotional and non-objective names as "Wacko Jacko" (and "King of Pop") or other often used praising or derogatory nicknames in the opening paragraph would not be tolerated in Misplaced Pages on even Osama Bin Laden or Adolf Hitler's entry. In fact, here is the entry for Osama Bin Laden:

Usāmah bin Muhammad bin 'Awad bin Lādin (Arabic: أسامة بن محمد بن عوض بن لادن; born 1957-03-10 ), most commonly known as Osama bin Laden or Usama bin Laden (أسامة بن لادن) is an Islamic fundamentalist, a primary founder of the al-Qaeda Islamic fundamentalist organization and a member of the immensely wealthy bin Laden family. Bin Laden and al-Qaeda have allegedly carried out a number of attacks worldwide, including the September 11, 2001 attacks on The World Trade Center in New York City, The Pentagon in Arlington, Virginia, and the failed hijacking of United Airlines flight 93, which killed at least 2,986 people. In addition, they have been linked to the bombings at the U.S. Embassy in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania and U.S. Embassy Nairobi, Kenya, the USS Cole, the Bali nightclub bombings, the Madrid bombings, as well as bombings in the Jordanian capital of Amman and in Egypt's Sinai peninsula.

And here is Adolf Hitler:

Adolf Hitler (help·info) (1889-04-20 – 1945-04-30) was Chancellor of Germany from 1933 and Führer (Leader) of Germany from 1934 until his death. He was leader of the National Socialist German Workers Party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei or NSDAP), better known as the Nazi Party.

Now, if you think my rewrite is too wordy, I'm perfectly happy to use ChrisB's rewrite of the opening paragraph in Header dispute above. I think the point is, this is an encyclopedia, and we should write the articles as though they are worthy of being in an encyclopedia, not a copy of The Sun, the Daily Star, or The National Enquirer. And finally, Michael Jackson is a person, just like you and me, and frankly, I don't think any person deserves to be mocked or called names in a serious, deliberate, public forum such as Misplaced Pages. Thanks. DavidBailey 23:54, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

It's not really mocking though is it? not in this context. These are names which are used often, and are therefore encyclopedic and worthy of note. Just not in the first paragraph, because it looks unprofessional.--Crestville 11:02, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

It's mocking when it's included in the opening paragraph, because it is being portrayed as who he is, rather than identifying them as nicknames that were given him by specific groups. I agree that they, and really all of his commonly used nicknames, should be discussed in the larger article. Any other comments? Any other objections to moving ahead with this edit? DavidBailey 00:00, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

The nicknames are discussed in detail further down in the article, having them in the introduction is just that, an introduction. Its common place in wikipedia articles to have prominent nicknames in the introduction. Keep in mind that 'Wacko Jacko' is in the article for same reason as 'King of Pop' because its a common nickname used by a lot of people, it is not included simply as means to mock Jackson. I'm not entirely against removing the nicknames from the introduction, but I really don't see the point of it as both 'Wacko Jacko' and King of Pop' redirect to this article.--Count Chocula 00:36, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I have no intention of removing them at this point. We're only discussing using my paragraph above or the one that ChrisB wrote in the section Header dispute. DavidBailey 01:04, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Thats not such a bad idea, though I think it be better to expand the nickname info in the body of the article rather than the introductory paragraph.--Count Chocula 01:16, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I would agree, except for the fact that those nicknames are quite controversial (see 18-20 pages of discussion just since the beginning of the year), and therefore, they must be kept and must be explained. DavidBailey 12:37, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay, if there are no more disagreements on the topic, I'll perform the edit, using ChrisB's contributed introduction paragraph above, because it is very similar to mine, but is less wordy as Mhking has observed, and I believe reads better. Thanks Chris! DavidBailey 11:08, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll agree that the paragraph you used was less wordy, though I'd suggest an additional set of eyes take a look to see if that second sentence can become less convoluted. But barring that, I have no problem with the compromise text. --Mhking 15:13, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I reckon the new wording is reasonable and doesn't subvert the earlier consensus, which I don't think specified keeping the nicknames in the first line, only the first paragraph. If it helps restore some stability to this article it will be worth it. Cheers, Ian Rose 16:08, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I thought that ChrisB's was less wordy than mine. I guess not. Okay, then how about this one?

Michael Joseph Jackson (born August 29, 1958) is an American musician and entertainer whose successful music career and controversial personal life have been at the forefront of pop culture for the last quarter-century. Jackson has often been referred to by fans and the popular media as The King of Pop and by detractors and the tabloid media by the pejorative Wacko Jacko.

Is that acceptable? DavidBailey 17:37, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

The current version you put in seems fine to me, I don't think you need to tinker any more with it.--Count Chocula 17:49, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm fine with the current version as long as most everyone else is. DavidBailey 18:22, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Change the Photo

And replace it with a picture of Michael in concert, circa the Dangerous Tour (1992). It really must be something to have three hundred thousand American teenagers in the audience. Fat Man Elvis with his elderly fans in Vegas looks so dated.

I agree, and please sign your comments. Four tildes in a row does the trick. DavidBailey 00:11, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I disagree -- the main pic should be reflective of what he looks like today; placing a concert photo from nearly 15 years ago is fine within the body of the article, but it certainly would not be encyclopedic. --00:32, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Presley's article shows a picture taken of him 7 years before his death. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.93.21.2 (talk • contribs) 2006-05-09 16:26:00.

It is common for encyclopedias to use photographs of iconic figures at the peak of their popularity. DavidBailey 12:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, which is why Michael's picture should be from 1982-1995, not 2006.

Because Jackson is a living person the most recent photo of him is used. Believe me, it could be a lot worse than this photo.--Count Chocula 11:51, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I understand that it could be worse, although that would tabloidish, but I disagree that all living figures in Misplaced Pages have current photographs. Some examples: Mr. T, Gary Coleman, Elton John, Gene Simmons, Elizabeth Taylor, George Michael for starters. In my opinion, current photographs should go in the part of the article about his current events, not at the top where a summary of his career is presented. I don't think anyone would argue that Michael Jackson is currently at the peak of his career. DavidBailey 22:39, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

His peak ended in 1995.

I'm not sure any photograph from 2006 would look worse, because Michael has only appeared in public twice this year - once while visiting a friend in Berlin at the end of January, and then for the official record signing deal in April.

How does Michael look so much like Bjorn Andresen?

Quality of his voice

A while back there was a brief discussion - in the body of the article - of the quality of Michael Jackson's voice. It covered his technique (e.g. accurate staccato singing) and crucially listed examples of songs which show it to best effect. Does anyone know what happened to that section, what was in it, what were the songs? They were all quite obscure (i.e. not Thriller/Bad/Dangerous) I recall. Thanks. Stroika 21:35, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Misuse of the talk page

Could editors please keep the talk page for discussing how the article can be improved, not for discussing personal opinions about Jackson. The rule does not have to be interpreted rigedly: a certain leeway is allowed. But this have got completely out of hand, with obscenities, insults, and long off-topic posts. AnnH ♫ 10:52, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I would agree with this. Let's keep the discussions on-topic, please. DavidBailey 00:01, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Typo

Just thought you may like to know, under Berlin and Bashir: 2002 - 2003, there appears a double "also", reading "also also".

You may want that fixed...

Article too biased

I belive that this article's introduction paragraph is too biased as it mentions 'Wacko Jacko' in the first line. Some have countered this much agreed with statement by saying that the paragraph is balance because it contains 'King of Pop', but there is a difference. King of Pop refers to Jackson's incredible musical talent (which the article does not mention to a great enough extent) whilst Wacko Jacko refers to Jackson's personal life. These are two very different aspects. The introduction, therefore, is saying basically that "Jackson is a good singer, but a freak at the same time". This statement is too biased, as it clearly outlines the article writer's opinion. The introduction should be absolutely neutral, not hinting at one opinion or another. I would like my vote to be added to the current poll asking whether Wacko Jacko should stay, and I say NO. --138.130.219.205 01:57, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh God, why did you have to ... ;) Monkeyman 02:02, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree entirely, the evil nickname must be removed NOW. Nicknames should only be listed as "The King of Pop", "MJ", "The Gloved One", and "Jacko".

So now that there has been compromise on the section, those who wanted the names excised want to overrun everything. Just damn. At this rate, we may well have left the opening the way it was. --Mhking 13:11, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

• If what I have read is true, the vote goes until the end of May. I am submitting my vote that Wacko Jacko SHOULD be removed. Is that a problem? I have not read about a compromise of any sort. --138.130.216.14 07:23, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

The nicknames were kept in the opening paragraph, but moved to the second sentence with a description of the origin (or common use) of the nicknames. Manboobies has ended his efforts to keep the page opening paragraph as it was through a never-ending voting process, and a compromise opening paragraph was submitted, discussed, and accepted according to Misplaced Pages's consensus process. Any additional efforts to alter the opening paragraph will be reverted as vandalism, unless a new consensus can be made. DavidBailey 10:44, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Eccentric behavior isn't "seemingly" eccentric. The reported behavior is clearly eccentric. (It could, however, be "seemingly" erratic, which may be a better choice.) Regardless, went for NPOV by changing "seemingly" to "widely reported" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TheEditrix (talk • contribs) 2006-05-15 21:47:49.

I have reverted the edit to the opening paragraph. While I personally would agree with you and the language used, we must use the consensus discussion process to avoid another lengthy edit war. Please discuss changes here before making them. DavidBailey 11:31, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the original poster. Although personally I think MJ is a cherry short of a fruit bowl there is absolutely no need to call him wacko in the first two sentences. The man has so many more notable qualities; eg: his guiness world records (3-4 of them if I recall) for being the best selling artist of all time is far more notable. Especially since the article goes into the whole wacko thing in detail further on. Unless there's serious objections I believe this should be changed immediately. - Glen _C (Stollery) 11:54, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that the original poster makes a good point. 'Manboobies', as we should all be able to see, has succeeded in his attempt to keep the opening paragraph the same. The names are still there, and still just as irrelevant for an introduction as before. Common sense is no longer a part of the Michael Jackson page, because it has been wound in red tape so many times that no one dares touch anything for fear of banning and vindiction. The opening paragraph is also still biased, as the original poster has pointed out. I think that the red tape surrounding this controversial page should be cut, because at the moment the vote has only worked in favour of 'manboobies' who has kept the introduction almost identical to what it was before. Common sense must prevail. Nicknames have no place in the introduction. An introduction should be quick, clean and concise, and not be bogged down with nicknames, wordiness and otherwise irrelevant information that should be dealt with in the main body of the article. Currently, no one dares to change the introduction, which is a blatant contradiction to the wikipedia philosphy that anyone can edit anything. How can this article expect to grow and improve if so many restrictions are placed on what can and cannot be edited? we should allow the public to edit the introduction as they see fit. surely people who are vandals here at wikipedia won't bother reading this talk page or listening to a few silly rules preventing them from editing the michael jackson article's introduction. However, people here who really want to see the article improved are the ones being restrained by these rules, because they respect the wikipedia community and would not go against it. they are not allowed to improve the article's introduction, so the GOOD wikipedians are being blocked from improving a far from polished introduction, while the vandals can continue unhindered. this defeats the purpose of this whole vote, which was to IMPROVE THE ARTICLE. Now we can't because 'Manboobies', who orchestrated this little melodrama to keep the article as it was before - and no doubt also wanted rules to be imposed blocking the article being changed in the future, which have now been implemented - has won, and wikipedia as a community has lost. I say that the rules should be removed, because this article will suffer if editing and improving the introduction is restricted. --Paaerduag 07:17, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Paaerdaug, no one is being kept from editing anything. The only requirement is that a consensus is reached before the opening paragraph is edited. Otherwise, your edit will be reverted. Manboobies wanted to keep the nicknames in the first sentence unexplained, that gave them legitimacy. At least with the current format, the terms, while noted, are not given legitimacy. If you wish to have a different opening paragraph. Create a new section and discuss it. If you get consensus (IE- most agree), then go ahead with your edit. I'm just trying to keep another edit war from happening, which benefits no one. DavidBailey 14:34, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

It is not appropriate that the opening few lines insult the subject of the article

New opening paragragh

Michael Joseph Jackson (born August 29, 1958) is an American musician and entertainer whose successful music career and controversial personal life have been at the forefront of pop culture for the last quarter-century.

If insistance further reference to his "behavior" must be made then I would add:

Jackson is most famous not only for his achievements as a musician, but for his seemingly eccentric behavior.

However personally I see no real need to add the second part as a reference to his "controversial personal life" has already been made in the first line, and obviously much further detail is expanded upon further on.

Rationale

As I have said there is no need to insult him in the opening paragraph when the nicknames are gone into in detail barely a paragraph or two later (yes I realise there was a King of Pop reference as well, but regardless the specific naming him as Whacko is uncalled in the opening couple of lines).

I would like to remind any objectors that WP:MOSBIO states:

WP:MOSBIO Opening paragraph guidelines

The opening paragraph should give:

1. Name(s) and title(s), if any (see, for instance, also Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (names and titles))
2. Dates of birth and death, if known (see Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Dates of birth and death)
3. Nationality (In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable.)
4. What they did
5. Why they are significant.

In summation

As such the reference to media nicknames in the opening lines is far too specific and I believe any user who is insisting that they remain is simply looking to discredit the subject. Finally, suggest anyone who has a problem with this to inspect the George W. Bush article, an article whose subject is more contraversial, has many more critics and has a notable "nickname", and whose opening paragraph reads:

George Walker Bush (born July 6, 1946) is the 43rd and current President of the United States and a former governor of Texas. He is currently in his second term as president, which runs until January 20, 2009.

Infact there is no reference to criticism nor "Dubya" until the eighth paragraph

I await your thoughts, - Glen _C (Stollery) 16:24, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I would say Michael Jackson is more controversial than President Bush. 195.93.21.2

So? I think this is an ideal solutiuon, though from what I've read, everyone seems to be arguing the same point - the nicknames should go - but agressively and vindictively as if they are up against the world. Obviously the nicknames should be mentioned later in the article, because they are very significant. For Good God's sake can you just change it now and leave in at that? Thank you Stollery.--Crestville 10:48, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, let me admit right off the bat, I am a Michael Jackson fan thus my opinion may be biased. However, having said that I think it's rediculour to include nicknames in the opening paragraph of a person. Especially when the rules of wikipedia, as previously mentioned, state that that sort of information should not be included. While I do think that the nicknames should be included at some point in the article, they do not need to appear in the opening paragraph. While I understand some articles such as Elvis Presley or Alfred Hitchcock do contain nicknames, these are not only non-disputed nicknames, but they are also given to a person who has been long deceased and these monickers have become synonomous with these individuals. As both nicknames of Jackson are in dispute, and arguably both reflect bias, it seems they should be removed. Once again, I do not think they should be removed from the article entirely. However the opening paragraphy should not contain either of them. Let us not forget that an encyclopedia is supposed to reflect the facts. I'm not trying to start an edit war, but to me it just seems logical that nicknames should be kept out of any general overview of a person, because they are just that. Nicknames. There is no one TRUE nickname, and thus they should be removed. But those are just my opinions. :: ehmjay 02:24, 20 May 2006 (UTC)ehmjay

I have been out of pocket much of the week. I have no problem with the new opening paragraph, as long as neither name is included (I have been of the 'all or nothing' mindset -- either have both names or neither one). The descriptions within the bounds of the article are likewise satisfactory -- I'll have to find the original reference to his own PR people (or Jackson himself) creating the "King of Pop" name (I seem to remember an AP or Reuters article that explained that, but off the top of my head, I cannot recall exactly where/when I saw that). --Mhking 13:35, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

From what I can remember, the first person to use the term King of Pop was Liz Taylor at an award show when she presented Jackson. :: ehmjay 15:21, 20 May 2006 (UTC)ehmjay

DONE. Sentence removed from first paragraph

This is already discussed in detail further in article - DO NOT REVERT THIS WAS CONSENSUS ON TALK PAGE discuss there BEFORE changing - changes without WILL BE CONSIDERED VANDALISM. - Glen _C (Stollery) 08:12, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I just went and read the site, and it looks much better to me. Showing no bias and summing up Jackson quite well. :: ehmjay 15:27, 20 May 2006 (UTC)ehmjay

Jackson at the 1996 Brits

I can see no harm in putting this picture up to illustrate and interesting tale from Jackson's life. I feel that this article lacks good images of Jackson as is illustrated by the use of album covers portraying his image to "fill in the gaps". I would point out that featured music artiles tend not to use this approch. However, SixOneSix or whatever the name is, is persistant in removing this image claiming I "lack justification". How is this so? I may be wrong, but I can only guess that this editor is one of those annoying Jackson "superfans" who thinks he has never done wrong despite... well we all know. I'll revert their edit and then let the rest of you decide on here like civilised adults (!) and not petulent children who just revert edits without a proper explaination. And, with a bit of luck, this will turn into a big edit war, just like the nickname thing! Won't that be fun! (BTW, the nicknames should be moved)--Crestville 10:28, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi. Lets compromise. The picture is OK. The bit about the repeated kissing is not. It is placing interpretations on the picture based on what someone thinks TODAY, not what they thought in 1996, before Misplaced Pages began!! We should not try to rewrite history. Wallie 20:56, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Everybody thought it at the time as well, because of the Jordy Chandler scandal in 1993-4.

Probably, yes. But to be honest I didn't actually write the caption, nor did I upload the image. I never really read the caption and if I had, I probably would have changed it. I continued to resotre it (as I've said above) becasue this page lacks proper images of Jackson, because it draws attention to one of the more interesting tales of his life and because I do not like to give in to vandals. Thanks for helping though.--Crestville 13:10, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

We need your help for the french version of Misplaced Pages !

Hi ! Can someone upload a personal, good and recent (less than 5 years) picture of Michael Jackson on Wikimedia Commons ? In France, we can't use "fair use" rule. It is very strict, so we can't upload a lot of picture. Our pictures must not violate any copyright. Thank you for your help, and sorry for my english. SpeedDemon74, from the french Misplaced Pages version.

What a nice French person. (English CAPITAL "E". I know your game, son)--Crestville 10:50, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

There is never any need to be rude like that, ever. Páll 08:29, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I was not being rude. It's hard to be rude by calling someone else "nice". That's a bit wet.--Crestville 13:06, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I think it's called sarcasm, and it's rude to extra-lingual people. --138.130.218.188 08:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I wans't being sarcastic at all. He genuinely was nice. Frankly I think you should be slightly ashamed for assuming such.--Crestville 13:57, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Debts

Should not the article mention more about Jackson's financial problems, especially his $170 million debts?

arguably, yes we should add those, however since it is something that there is no true hard facts on (most are projections, or rumours) and no one has access to his actual financial statements, it is my opinion that this shouldn't be placed in an encyclopedia article dedicated to facts about the person. :: ehmjay 15:25, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

- I'd like to fix something on this page plz (update: fixed, thx for unprotect)

what would that be pray tell? - Glen _C (Stollery) 09:09, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Article formatting

Something is really messed up in this article's formatting. Quite a few sections appear to be duplicates, and differing from each other. --maru (talk) contribs 19:32, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Just an opinion...

I'm assuming that 99.99%-100% of people here hate Jackson? I agree that he's a weird person and all that, but I've grown up hearing all of this. I've heard that he's a sicko, and used to be black. But when - believing this - i saw the video for 'Earth Song' I thought that maybe he isn't such a sicko after all. I mean, he does care about the planet, and it seems that the media and almost everyone in the world has conveniently forgotten about that. Is the world really such a mean place? I mean, it's kind of sad that everyone sees through two holes in a box, not looking at the wider picture. And I thought this was an age of equality for all, AND equality. but it seems that this world just LOVES to pick targets and keep on firing them missles, over and over again, until finally we all jump on the 'Let's criticise Jackson!' bandwagon. I know that people here will immediately turn on me for my opinion. In fact, i'm sure there will be smart comments about me being a superfan (which i am NOT) and other such ludicrous nonsense. This post has NOTHING to do with the article (in fact, i'm sure someone will pick on me for that as well, saying that this post is useless and should be removed). But i'm just wondering what others (that won't shun me) think. I mean, Saddam Hussein was a nasty man, but not even HE got this amount of negative media attention, and worldwide hatred. --138.130.218.188 08:12, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Just of interest, the 2005 Michael Jackson molestation trial page now claims that Jackson molested "an elephant" among other things, and that the jurors thought that the prosecution's case "just wasn't enough" to convince them that the elephants were molested. all i can say is... RIGHTIO... --138.130.218.188 11:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

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