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User:Cool Cat's disruption of Kurdish categorization efforts

Minutes after I add Category:Kurdish inhabited region to a half dozen articles , User:Cool Cat nominates the category for deletion.

This is confusing, because Cool Cat contacted me via IRC to get me to create just such a category. Unless I'm misrembering (I _am_ getting old, you know ;-) this. --Uncle Ed 15:04, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Really? It seems that his objection is not in the category's existence but in its use. Thanks! --Moby 09:45, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 May 8#Category:Kurdish inhabited region

User:Cool Cat has a history of #POV editing, and has been enjoined from disruptively editing articles relating to Turkey or the Kurds.

He has vociferously sought the deletion of all categories related to Kurds:

Misplaced Pages:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 January 17#Category:Kurdistan
Misplaced Pages:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 March 3#Category:Kurdistan

plus the current votes:

Misplaced Pages:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 April 30#Category:Kurdish provinces
Misplaced Pages:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 May 6#Category:Kurdish cities

During the second CFD for Category:Kurdistan he stated: I dont care about this vote at all. I have no reason to keep nonsense like this on wikipedia, I will eventualy get it deleted, watch me.

Category:Kurdish inhabited region was created by User:Ed Poor as part of discussion on Category talk:Kurdistan where User:Cool Cat has been adamantly opposed to all efforts to establish consensus on usage of this category. User:Francs2000, whom User:Cool Cat asked to comment, ended up telling him that you need to change your attitude.

I agree, he needs to change his attitude. --Moby 10:56, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I do agree entirely with Moby's summary. Cool Cat's disruptions do it hard to write articles about anythings related to Kurds. And it is indeed not an extenuating circumstance that user themselve stated, as quoted above, that they intended to sabotage the Category:Kurdistan, as it during the debate for its deletion was clear that it would stay. I hope some action will be taken, since the alternative seems to be continuing of disruptive edit wars. Bertilvidet 13:27, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment! --Moby 09:45, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

The ArbCom verdict which you've posted above says that he should be blocked for up to 3 days if he engages edits disruptively in Kurdish related areas. We've got several people saying he has done so, therefore I block 2 days. -lethe 13:58, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. --Moby 09:45, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify my position here, Cool Cat invited me into the discussion claiming that he was having POV issues with Kurdistan related articles, implying that he had received death threats from other users as a result of the discussion getting heated (see here). I got involved and made some progress with the other users in getting some agreement over the inclusion of Category:Kurdistan in articles, and this I believe has led to some of the sub-categories such as those listed above being created. I have since stepped back a bit due largely to real life events. I will say that although Cool Cat had some valid points in his arguements against the inclusion of material in articles about the disputed region, the way he went about making his point was unnecessarily aggressive, in my opinion. I also stand by telling him that he needs to change his opinion, after he stated (and I paraphrase) that he would be unable to negotiate a consensus on certain subject areas. -- Francs2000 14:10, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

It appears to me that the comments you're referring to as death threats were targeting you (for reasons I have no clue about) and had nothing to do with User:Cool Cat or anyone else involved in the Kurdish categorization discussions; I certainly made no such threats. And thanks for your comment! --Moby 09:45, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I've had enough of this. As Cool Cat's mentor I'm banning him from editing articles, templates and categories related to the kurds. He may still edit related discussion pages. This ban is initially to run for one week, to be made permanent subject to the agreement of the other two mentors. --Tony Sidaway 05:01, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

The ban includes creation or nomination for deletion. See the announcement on WP:AN. --Tony Sidaway 05:24, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, too! --Moby 09:45, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

• If this is to be kept it should be called Kurdish inhabited regions as per the naming policy to use plurals in categories. How long was this ban on Kurdish related articles for Coolcat? (Mgm - not logged in) - 131.211.210.16 07:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Use of plural makes sense to me, I'll suggest it on the CFD. Thanks! --Moby 09:45, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

• Here's a copy of a message I posted to Tony Sidaway:

While I agree, the best way for Coolcat to stay out of trouble is to edit other articles, I think he made a valid point when he nominated this particular category for deletion. And now people are voting keep based on his involvement rather than the merits or demerits of the category itself (which is in my opinion even more disruptive -- bad, bad!). The thing is the category is vague. Should London be considered a Kurdish inhabited region? And what kind of precedent will it set? American inhabited region, German inhabited region, French inhabited region?

I think Coolcat was right to nominate such a vague category and I don't think banning him for it is the right thing to do. If someone else had nominated it, this whole thing wouldn't have happened. - Mgm| 10:42, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

The nomination of Category:Kurdish inhabited region was the action that prompted me to start this discussion here, but the disruption has been on-going on pages such as Category talk:Kurdistan and Talk:Batman, Turkey for some time. He has removed Category:Kurdistan from many article (awhile ago...) and has been rather clear about his intent to oppose all efforts at categorizing Kurdish articles. Given his history, I would think a ban on Kurdish-related editing an apt remedy. An hour ago I left a note on his talk page and he screamed at me. I don't see him as willing to work with others on this subject. --Moby 10:52, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

As mentors I see it as our main jobs to keep Cool_Cat (talk · contribs) editing effectively and to avoid another rendezvous with the arbitration committee. As always, it is not Cool Cat's judgement on content that is in question but the way in which he interacts with others on some subjects. Yesterday he was blocked for forty-eight hours by Lethe (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) as a result of the complaint by Moby_Dick (talk · contribs). In Lethe's view, Cool Cat has edited disruptively on the subject of the Kurds so arbitration remedy 5 is invoked.

This isn't the first time since the arbitration that we've had trouble with Cool Cat over Kurds. From early March he has made some unconstructive AfDs:

• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kingdom of Kurdistan
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Mykonos (restaurant)
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Turkish Kurdistan

and some unconstructive comments on others:

• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Genetic origins of the Kurds
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Stub_types_for_deletion&diff=prev&oldid=44203127

There is an ongoing concern, and I think a valid one, that Cool Cat permits his edits on such issues to be influenced too strongly by his sympathies with Turkish nationalism. He repeatedly attempts to promote the removal of categories, templates and content related to an ethnicity that, while not having a single national entity of its own, is significant enough to be treated seriously by an encyclopedia.

Editors who complain about his activities and his attitude thus have a solid basis upon which to do so.

It is for this reason that I announced the one-week ban.

However, User:MacGyverMagic is also one of Cool Cat's mentors, and although in this case I have acted alone I do not intend to take actions with which any of my fellow mentors disagree.

In view of MacGyverMagic's opposition, I rescind the ban pending further discussion. --Tony Sidaway 15:13, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for documenting these other activities; the scope of the issue is greater than I was aware (and I now understand the restaurant references).

While I disagree with User:Cool Cat's judgment on many of the Kurd-issues here, it is his attitude that is most troublesome. In his response below I see no sign that he sees any validity to the objections others have raised -- he appears to be simply digging in his heels. If no action is taken on this issue, what's to stop him from continuing to obstruct efforts involving Kurds in the future? Presumably this whole incident will have been noted by a variety of people, but I don't expect many to involve themselves in the issue (which I would welcome).

I understand that banning someone is a serious step and should not be taken lightly. I will avoid editing any of the Kurd articles and categories against consensus. If a clear direction on an appropriate course to take on Kurdish categorization comes out of this whole dispute I'll be pleased. --Moby 09:31, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Disruption of Batman, Turkey

A review of the editing on Batman, Turkey (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) over the last two months will reveal that User:Cool Cat has edit warred and generally disrupted all efforts by a number of editors, including myself. He has repeatedly removed categories related to Kurds, and sources and statements about Kurds, and he has been joined by anons that make the same redactions that he does. At the moment the article is protected due to an edit war (that I was not involved in) over the addition of a paragraph about the killing of a Kurdish child by Turkish Security Forces (I did add the paragraph and a source). While it was anons that edit warred with various users, it was User:Cool Cat that argued on the talk page against the inclusion of the paragraph . --Moby 10:18, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

And you have declared the place predominantly kurdish when neither a census nor any other reliable source to base this on is avalible. You have also declared many other cities predominatly kurdish.

My 'disruption' is explaining that a census was not held even though the BBC claims the place is predominantly kuridsh (in a random news coverage)

--Cat out 17:53, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Also regarding that incident, if I recall correctly davenbelle had it on his userpage... Something about a "bullet riddled child". Admins can check the delet history. --Cat out 23:11, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, I think adding a cunk of 'sensative information' irrelevant to the topic covered is most certainly not in the best interest of wikipedia. It only leads to a revert war as we can observe. --Cat out 23:27, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

You must be recalling some other "bullet riddled child" -- Fatih Tekin was killed recently.

According to the EU-Turkey Civic Commission Submission on Recent Violence, on March 30, 2006, Fatih Tekin, a 3 year old boy, was shot and killed by Turkish Security forces during a police raid on a civilian house in Batman during a series of violent clashes in the Kurdish regions of Turkey.EU-Turkey Civic Commission Submission on Recent Violence on khrp.org

--Moby 06:33, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Has to be a coincidence... Now what did I say about coincidences...

How does this "bullet riddled child" expand the article? How does it give the reader a better understanding of the city? As unfortunate and tragic the boys death is, wikipedia is not a memorial and the incident has no significance to the city to be on the article. It might have been an interesting wikinews article, though I am not even certain of that. It is equaly irrelevant to talk about that kurdish boy pkk shot and killed or that teacher that died due to a heart attack.

Recently two little girls were abducted, raped, and murdered in texas (IIRC). No referance to the incident is made in the article about the region as it shouldn't.

--Cat out 08:16, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Cool Cat's response to all of this

It is quite pathetic when one has to defend himself to his mentor... I'll list the articles, categories, and templates I have placed for deletion below. I am going to include ones Tony Sidaway did not include as well.

I'd like to point out the reason why we do not do polls for deletion. All deletion processes are a concensus gathering process. However on occasions disruptive behaviour such as Vote Stacking do happen.

Hence I will explain all of the deletion votes I started or participated. I will try to be brief for all of them.

• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kingdom of Kurdistan
  • Article was originaly talking about two countries that have supposively existed. One only lasted 2 years while another lasted less than 6 months. The article(s) barely occupy a paragraph and had two sections I believe.
  • Article at a point was comparing the british goverment with saddam as "the british goverment gassed the kurds".
  • I was in contact with Tony on IRC about this deletion, I do not recall the details but he did not say or imply such a deletion would be disruptive.
  • During the vfd the articles quality was improved sligtly
  • Perhaps article is much suitable to be a section on an article with the title "Modern History of the Kurds" as article cant grow much even when inflated with lists of cabinate members.
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Mykonos (restaurant)
  • When I placed this article up for deleteion it was talking about an insignificant restourant which two kurds supposively had been shot. At the time the article barely could be considered a stub. After the deletion article was slightly inproved and renamed. It became a historicaly significant incident and hence became article worthy as an incident rather than info about the restourant.
  • I discussed the possible afd of this article with Tony Sidaway on IRC and he said it was pretty useless and that he said it wouldnt probably survive a deletion.
  • The result of my Afd is a better article with a better title.
  • This article should be a section at "Modern history of the Kurds" as article is too short and cant grow as the incident was quite minor and all details have been presented.
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Turkish Kurdistan
  • Other editors, one being Gruntness feels this article exists soely as a pov fork. Syrian Kurdistan was deleted for that reason
  • There was a case of vote stacking over 14 people were notified of this afd of which all but one voted favorably to the advertisier (user:Bertilvidet) with keep. My complaint about a vote stacking generated milimal response and no action.
  • Article currently gives a short intoduction to kurdish history which is a copy of History of the Kurds and a number of articles. Kurdistan is not oversized and we do have a Kurds in Turkey if we are to talk about the kurds. We can talk about Kurdish nationalism in its own article.
  • If we had a sensable deletion process this article would have been deleted. If you think otherwise please provide a rationale at what purpose does this article with pov titile, Turkish Kurdistan, serve that cant be achieved through Kurds in Turkey and Kurdish nationalism.
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Genetic origins of the Kurds
  • It is a strange article. I believe this article is nothing but pusedo science and promotes racisim. When I nominated this article for deleteion there was a VERY LARGE dna picture and it was less than neutral. it might be a nice addition to a section under Kurdish people. BUT etnicity is a cultural concept not genetic. Genetic would be race and last time I checked Kurds were just an ethnic minority.
• Category:Kurdish terrorists
  • I got this category speedy deleted.
  • I personaly believe Abdullah Ocalan is a Kurdish terrorist. Hence my nomination is in conflict with my personal views.
• Category:PKK victims
  • I got this category speedy deleted.
  • I personaly believe PKK is a Terrorist organisation and anybody they killed is a victim. Hence my nomination is in conflict with my personal views.
• Template:Kurd-politician-stub
  • I participated in this vote expressing why the stub category is pov. Stub types have very explicit guidelines.
  • I'd like to point out comments of some of the people voting keep... They are by far intruguing
  • I have not initiated this deletion
  • The "unless we consider kurdish a nationality and kurdistan a country which would be pov not shared by international treaties" comment tony highlighted is in parallel with stub guidelines.
    • While a Category:Kurdish politicians may be approporate. I would however prefer a categorisation similar to the format politicians in United States is covered such as Category:African American politicians. Tagging a Kurd in Iraq and Turkey under the same category would be problematic and confusing. However I do not intend to do anything about it as my block is proof wikipedia is not worth my devotion anymore.
• Template:Kurdistan-politician-stub
  • Speedy deleted as per vote mentioned above.
  • User:Retau created this
• Template:Kurdistan-bio-stub
  • Probably will be deleted as a back log as per stub sorting practice.
  • User:Retau created this
• Category:Kurdish provinces and Category:Kurdish cities
  • We do not categorise provinces, cities, or other landmarks based on ethnicity. I do not see why kurds are treated diferently from rest of wikipedia.
  • If demographic information about an ethnicity is avalible it can be presented in an article.
  • Who determines which article fits in these category or not? Kurdistan does not have defined borders nor are there any reliable data on Kurdish population.
  • Categories are navigation aids. The basis of such categories for provinces and cities is based on "who owns the place". Categories are not tools for territory grab. We do not tag every province and city in mainland china under Category:Taiwan just because the goverment claims it. Kurds do not even have a country to claim territory from.
  • User:Retau created both of the categories
  • See User:El_C's comment about User:Retau on the next section.
• Category:Kurdish inhabited region
  • Originaly intended to be a comprimise to Category:Kurdistan. I requested its creation from user:Ed Poor via email and/or irc.
  • I later changed my mind as categorising based on ethnicity still is a poor practice. No example of ethnic tagging exists in articles like New York or California.
  • It is more problematic as we do not have any reliable statistics regarding the Kurds. We do not know how many kurds there are let alone know what fraction of the population they occupy as no census about ethnicity was EVER held in the past 7 decades at least to my knowlege.
• Categories I haven't touched nor intend to touch Category:Kurdish people, Category:History of the Kurds, Category:Kurdish musicians, Category:Kurdish politicians, Category:Kurdish writers,... List goes on I am well aware of many other categories, articles, and templates related to the kurds. So I am definaltly not trying to delete everything related to kurds at random.
• My actions are infact reactions to mass creation of many contraversial categories all only exist soley to grab territory. I also raise concerns about tiny articles that have no way of growing. None of my actions have "distupted" the articles in question unless you consider improvement as disruption.

--Cat out 17:24, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

On at least one matter of fact I must correct Cool Cat. He and I discussed the article Mykonos (restaurant) and I edited to add a reference from a Time article. I told him at 2007 UTC on March 1, 2006, that, as with all deletion candidates I edit, "I don't think it stands a snowball's chance in hell of being deleted." I had told him at 2000, "the case is obviously notable. It led to an international incident" -Tony Sidaway 20:36, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I actualy interprted that as the article has a chance to survive as much as a snowball in hell. In any case my nomination was for a non-notable restourant. Overal the nomination improved the article, not disrupt. For instance it was renamed as it was not about this random restourant. --Cat out 16:03, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I can see in retrospect that my wording was unclear. I can see how this unintentionally misled you on the subject. --Tony Sidaway 12:44, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

No harm done, I do however owe you an apology for misinterpreting your words. I can also finaly understand why you kinda acted wierdly (from my perspective) at the time. Having said that, I am curious on what you think of the evidence I presented below? --Cat out 22:42, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Curiously, User:Cool Cat has responded here while blocked . His post is interesting in that he has basically documented more of the disruptive behavior that I have objected to and for this I thank him. --Moby 09:28, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment: I would just like to say that I support Cool Cat on this matter. The Kurdish categories were deleted before by nominations because of the vagueness of the borders of the proposed "Kurdistan" region - which had lead to edit wars in the past, they were created again by the User:Retau (Who may be a sockpuppet of User:Xebat according to CheckUser - who was banned recently for a year according to the Aucaman ArbCom ). I believe User:Moby Dick has turned this simple matter to something very personal which I regret to say that will not help the matter. -- - K a s h 15:28, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I've little opinion of the conjecture of a reincarnated Davenbelle, but there is a qualm in this editor's behavior. As per the above edvidence, this editor's initial confrontation with me conflicted over a userpage misunderstanding. This is a archived discussion on my talkpage which can be found here. After the I refuted the accusation, said editor took to being my shadow, which I noted after a number of appearences in locations across the encyclopedia which were in direct contact to my usertalk page (he has it consistently watchlisted you see). I made a final verification of this after he made a spell check on my talkpage, confirming he sees almost every comment posted there. This has been prevelant ever since the allegation on AN/I, but I never gave it much heed and it didn't bother me, so I let it alone. There were no subsequent direct confrontations after this incident, so I assumed good faith, and didn't have a valid complaint anyway, since, despite his occasional trolling, Moby makes excellent contributions to article space, not to mention ground-breaking work. Proceeding that incident, I took his talkpage off my watchlist and went about other things. I soon forgot the subject and the user, and made the presumption he had as well.

During some article expansion, I ran into two disruptive editors (BIG (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and 70.231.130.128 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)) on Talk:Colonel (Mega Man) and Ridge Racer during which said editors introduced/removed content from article space without any sources and any factually correct rebuttals. I made many reverts, for which I was subsquently blocked for , but respected due to the fact one must accept the consequences of his actions regarding the violation, despite the fact I was correct. I questioned the point of the blocks due to the fact, neither admistrator had taken the discussion on the talkpages into account and how each of the blocks were issued large timeframes after said violation (The first block occured 24 hours after the edit war was nullified and the page protected; the second several hours later, and after I had reverted myself to reach an comprimise). This incited a more active response from the editor, who had merely been watching my talkpage and contributions to this point. Druing the timeframe of my second block, He posted a note on William's talkpage (Another one of my elaborate plans to take the wiki by storm) concerning an established contributor engaging in vandalism. I had extreme difficulty believing this post when I first saw it. I posted a reply rearding this shortly afterward detailing my surprise at this bad-faith attempt to descend me into scurtuniy. William percieved this as a personal attack and threatened to block me shortly afterwards . It certainly wasns't intended as a personal attack, but I removed the comment as I don't believe personal attacks accepteble on anyone. I complied and altered my comment as I deemed necessary , after which William decided to block me anyway for being insolent. Not too much of a problem, since it was bedtime anyway.

The editor in question persisted. After a clearly confused william asked how it was relevant, Moby replied I circumvented my block and I was still up to something (I was still plotting my master scheme, you know) and that I should still be punished. Now expasperated, I made another note on the talkpage and explained the situation in full. which defused the matter. Around the ensuing timeframe, he proceeded to conflict in the Kurd-nonsense with Cool Cat, who was subsquently blocked. I'm aware that Cool Cat has a aggressive viewpoint on this subject and has encountered much opposition on this before, so I didn't comment on the matter, although it was quite obvious to the informed Moby didn't report the rfar violation in good faith. I took note of this after seeing his replies to various editors on subject on WP:AN/I, which gave me great cause for concern on his intent:

Revision as of 09:45, May 9, 2006 - "Thanks for you comment!"

Revision as of 09:28, May 10, 2006 - "..His post is interesting in that he has basically documented more of the disruptive behavior that I have objected to and for this I thank him."

I drew the line there. At wikipedia we report violations to enforce stability on article space and the workings of the site. Seeing this joy in the punishment of another user was very disturbing. One must really take into account weather this user is advocating the well-being of the article or muggery of those he disagrees with.

There certainly is a problem here.

At the current date, I was prompted by MONGO on my talkpage to accept an rfa , which I was hesitant, but felt I was ready for the additional workload. Before I accepted the nomination, I made note that I was being closely survallianced by Moby and I had no doubt a opposition would arise. I was correct in the assesment (I would have been honestly surprised had he not taken participation) , with said user agressively making the point of my image forgery and the rebuttal I made regarding his outrageous accusation. I was presently away from the computer, so when I returned I was atonished to find my rfa had already been withdrawn in an act of kindness by the nominator.

I stress that its not obtuse to believe Moby may be Davenbelle, as I'm still utterly baffled as to how a new user can simply migrate to a userpage, search the history extensively, and blow an ensuing argument about a misunderstanding out of porportion. It also strikes one as odd when a user immediately engages in long-standing conflict about aftermentioned article and makes reverts unusual for one so new. However, despite the sockkery or not, it needs to be known this editor has engaged in trolling and many contributions have been verified to be unwelcome at this encyclopedia. -Zero 16:23, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, look who showed up. Yes, I opposed your RFA -- what were you thinking, with blocks just last week?

As to being your "shadow" -- hardly. Yes, you are on my watchlist and have been since you deleted my legitimate comments from your talk page. Please do not feel that I consider your talk page surveillance-worthy -- it is mostly extremely banal chatter about video games. Your poorly-affected adult-English, however, does occasionally provide some amusement, as does your spelling.

I do thank you for your praise of some of my edits; hope you don't take offence -- In the Heart of the Sea: The Tragedy of the Whaleship Essex is a wonderful book.

Also, you did comment on the matter involving User:Cool Cat and Kurds -- remember now?

--Moby 10:34, 11 May 2006 (UTC) (who is not a troll, thank you)

You sound just like a pouty child trying to lie his out of a fix by pretending it's all Cool Cat's fault. Give it up. I'm not impressed. -Zero 11:04, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment: While I believe that CoolCat hasn't looked especially open to compromise, it is unfair to declare that all of these actions are "disruptive" - it is unfortunate that he changed his mind about a compromise category but changing your mind should always be allowed. There is no general consensus about ethnic-geography categories. Indeed, these Kurdish examples seem to be the sole example of the type; presumably because most people find the idea of an ill-defined ethnic-geography category a bad idea. I am open to the idea if implemented properly, but the three ethnic-geography categories CoolCat has nominated were all, quite simply, dire. They had POV issues. They were poorly defined. The most recent one even had a grammatically incorrect name! I do not believe it is disruptive to nominate for deletion something that, in the reasonable opinions of many well-respected Wikipedians (and there are many who agreed with CoolCat - see the votes), does not belong on Misplaced Pages. CoolCat has not been mass-deleting Kurdish-related articles. He has not been attempting deletions of neutral, generally accepted, Kurdish categories. He has made a contentious attempt to expunge ethnic-geography cross-over categories, but these have widespread opposition from many sources so I don't think that it is genuinely disruptive. Nobody should be forced to compromise on the issue of ethnic-geography categories, since many Wikipedians reasonably disagree strongly with their creation - failure to agree on a compromise isn't necessarily a sign of disruption if you honestly believe (especially with something as "binary" in nature as a category) that something is a harmful or damaging idea. The fact that many of his nominations were speedied is an indication that he isn't being entirely disruptive, perhaps the restaurant and genetics AfDs were the closest to that mark. The thing that seems to be the real problem is that CoolCat isn't making a secret of his personal views. While sometimes he edits in a way that shows he is actually being a "Good Wikipedian" and going against personal preference in the interests of the encyclopedia (e.g. with the Kurdish terrorist category) when he is making a positive, useful contribution that seems "in tune" with his views, he looks like a disruptive POV-monger. Which in turn makes people vote against him unthinkingly... It would be better, perhaps, if he kept some of these topics at arm's length and merely brought these instances to the attention of Wikipedians known to be neutral on the Kurdistan question, to allow them to decide whether to make a deletion request or not. I simply can not believe that anybody would have cut any slack to Category:Hispanic inhabited region for instance: it would have been wiped off the face of the 'pedia without any second thoughts; however, the fact that it is CoolCat and the Kurds has meant that this category has a surprising number of keep votes. However, whether CoolCat wants to take this degree of extra care (and restrict his editing accordingly) in cases which are fundamentally non-disruptive should really be for CoolCat to decide, not any of us. TheGrappler 22:06, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Moby Dick (talk · contribs)

I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences.

1. User:Moby Dick has a total of 344 edits as of the preparation of this report.
   • I'd normaly consider him to be new to wikipedia as he has been a wikipedian since december. This alone is not a problem though.
   • User:Davenbelle's last edit was on 03:20, 6 December 2005, User:Moby Dick made his first edit on 01:29, 23 December 2005
2. On 03:02, 26 January 2006 users makes his first edit into the wikipedia namespace and it is opposing my RfA
   • He seems to have located my RfA conviniantly. It his his 84th edit. He also makes a very professional edit by incrementing the oppose counter. Its something often oldies fail to notice
   • We have not edited any articles in common meaning he did not know me at all.
   • He participated in a total of 2 RfA aside from my own. One for Megaman Zero (as oppose) and another for Khoikhoi (support). Both are figures I know. He is definately not a frequent voter.
   • User:Davenbelle had opposed my other previous two of my rfas.
     • One of these RfAs were filed by MegamanZero
     • User:Davenbelle managed to oppose it before the nominator, megaman zero, could support
3. On 07:57, 25 February 2006 MobyDick conviniantly discovered "forgery" on Megaman Zero's user page
   • Long ago, on 20:05, 2 January 2006, User:Megaman Zero complained about User:Davenbelles behaviour on User:Davenbelles talk page.
   • This is just 3 edits after him opposing my rfa. Mind the month long gap. It is strange to say the least.
   • User:Davenbelle gave User:Megaman_Zero the award.
   • This incident had made its way to the ANB. This is mobydicks first post to the ANB
4. On 07:21, 10 March 2006, Moby Dick informs user:Aucaman about my RfAr
   • It is possible that he could have learnt about the existance of the RfAr from my 3rd rfa nomination as I have mentioned it there. However a key question is why did he tell this to Aucaman. He has no edits in comon with Aucaman. Nor was he involved with anything related to the kurds.
   • This is his first post for 11 days, in the previous post he was complaining about megaman zeros award on the ANB.
5. On 02:41, 11 March 2006 user participated in his first deletion votes, both were initiated by Megaman Zero
6. On 05:09, 11 March 2006 this user oposed the copy vio nomination I made
   • This is the first and last time the user participates in copyright matters
   • Davnbelle was involved with the Armenian Genocide article and was practicaly opposing anything I suggested. It can be said that was his entier contribution.
7. On 05:58, 11 March 2006 user opposed the deletion of Category:Kurdistan which I initiated.
   • user had not been involved with any other issues regarding Kurds or any such deletion votes for that matter.
8. On 02:51, 13 March 2006 user got involved with an article about kurds for the first time on Batman, Turkey article. He has repetively restored "Kurdish dominance" line by reverting my edit. This continued on
   • user:Bertilvidet is one other party desperately working to force "Kurdish dominance" to the lead.
   • Davenbelle also prefered to oppose me whenever possible. This might be too vauge to be considered as evidence but take a look at and
9. On 02:20, 1 May 2006 user created the KHRP redirect.
   • There is nothing disruptive with that. however if you take a look at you will see Davenbelle had initiated the article redirect leads to.

These are the coincidences I have found on frist sight. There are of course other cases I can post but I want to keep my report brief.

Among 6,929,878 many articles and 48,457,995 number of users, MobyDick's edits intersect with Davenbelle on more than one ocasion. Would make a great statistics research paper.

I wont come up with conclusions but I find the material I just posted very interesting.

--Cat out 14:21, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Wow, I actually liked this evidence gathering. Interesting indeed. -- ( drini's page ☎ ) 03:22, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Too long, didn't read. Telex 16:53, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Too long, indeed -- however I felt obliged to read it. User:Cool Cat is making this false allegation in order to divert attention from the issue of his behavior and, it would seem, in order to entangle me in his arbitration case. It is also not the first time has has made this sort of claim: Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Cool Cat. While the factual details -- who has edited what, for example -- of his accusation appear to be accurate (I've not checked), his spin and interpretation are entirely self-serving.

I believe I first encountered User:Cool Cat on the first CFD of Category:Kurdistan and did not like his obvious intent of limiting Kurdish content on Misplaced Pages. I have used Misplaced Pages as a reference for years and its greatest problem is inconsistent accuracy of information and it is the behavior of editors such as User:Cool Cat that is responsible for this.

User:Cool Cat's implied accusation (which he makes explicit here) can easily be explained by the fact that articles and users he refers to are all related; they involve Kurds or they involve him. He expresses concern that my edits are too "professional" for one so "new" -- as if this were the only wiki in the world.

I would add again that he does not appear to be interested seeking a consensus. He efforts here only serve to make the editing environment hostile.

--Moby 10:31, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Interesting argument. What wiki do you normaly work for? Tonikaku, I may have been wrong on Amask's case but that has nothing to do with your case. Amask has participated in only two votes and one or two articles. Since the nonsense I had to deal with davenbelle, I had been somewhat jumpy... Lets consider your statistics.

• You have participated in a total of 3 rfas, the first one you have ever voted was my rfa and you voted oppose, just like davenbelle. After Coincidentaly the other two rfas are people who I know about. Of that MegamanZero is the person that told Davenbelle to stop stalking (See User Talk:Davenbelle). The other RfA you participated was for Khoikhoi who at the time in dispute with me. Lets call all that circumstential evidence and discard them.
• You have participated in a total of 8 deletion votes. 5 of them opposing me, 2 of them opposing megamanzero. So thats 7 out of 8 deletion votes we have in common. Again lets call that circumstential evidence and discard it.
• There is this hole case of you and megaman zero. You were complaining about something megaman zero recieved from davenbelle. MegamanZero at a point modifed the bycycle award to an exceptional newbie award long ago at 10:50, 18 January 2006. I Had to dig through the userpage history to discover the actual modification of the award and I knew what I was looking for.
  1. So we have an award given to MegamanZero by davenbelle.
  2. We have MegamanZero warning davenbelle to stop stalking me on a much later date. (a motive for davenbelle to seek "revenge") as MegamanZero and I had been close and still are close.
  3. We have megaman zero modifying the given award in 12 january (hey he can its his userpage)
  4. We have you detecting and "correcting" it on 25 february.
  5. We know you never met megamanzero on any article, meaning you didnt know him.

  So among 48,457,995 registered users, you found Megaman Zero at random. You also discovered "forgery" of an award on his userpage which required me to load a dozen diffs even though I knew what I was looking for.

• You make edits such as this or this. While to an untrained eye it is a simple vandalism reversion. Davenbelle was also very interested in the contravercy surrounding the Southeastern Anatolia Project , an article I mostly wrote. Among 6,929,878 we meet on the same article as davenbelle edited on the same section.
• We also have you removing/objecting a copyright issue I posted concerning a letter and the Armenian Genocide . It spikes my curiosity how on earth have you noticed that post? And if you are so concerned about copyrights why havent you ever commmented on another copyright issue?
• I noticed recently. So you have randomly discovered an edit of mine and since it is a redirect that is among 4,190,567 pages. You have reverted an edit of mine from 04:20, 12 April 2006.

You are complaining about me creating a hostile enviorment... How productive is you complaining about megaman zeros award? How would you describe your attitude?

Coincidences? Sure. A striking question is why would a user who had only edited articles about the novel featuring the whale Moby Dick suddenly start to edit articles related to Kurds, Armenians, and Turkey practicaly opposing me on every opertunity?

I said I wouldnt come up with the conclusions and I wont, however if davenbelle made edits like yours... he would be considered stalking in my view.

--Cat out 19:22, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh and before I forget comments such as the one below create a hostile environment. Not just that, it is also very incivil.

As to being your "shadow" -- hardly. Yes, you are on my watchlist and have been since you deleted my legitimate comments from your talk page. Please do not feel that I consider your talk page surveillance-worthy -- it is mostly extremely banal chatter about video games. Your poorly-affected adult-English, however, does occasionally provide some amusement, as does your spelling.

Misplaced Pages prizes itself for its coverage on topics such as hard science as well as video games and Anime episode descriptions. Founder of wikipedia had made his view on this issue quite clear.

--Cat out 19:30, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I, for one, consider an ethnic group of twenty-odd million people to be a bit more encyclopaedic than a bunch of doe-eyed adolescent cartoon characters. --Moby 10:28, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

You are entitled to have your opinions. I for one consider all topics equally relevant and important. Certainly you appriciate fiction on wikipedia. You contributed a great deal to articles such as In the Heart of the Sea: The Tragedy of the Whaleship Essex. I do not understand why you think so 'lowly' of articles about 'a bunch of doe-eyed adolescent cartoon characters'. The ethnic group of twenty-odd million people is no more significant than Chaos theory. --Cat out 23:08, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

In the Heart of the Sea: The Tragedy of the Whaleship Essex is not fiction. --Moby 06:30, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Very well it isnt fiction and is 100% factual. --Cat out 21:46, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

You think I'm stalking you? I want nothing more than to be rid of you. You are the one who seems to have studied every edit I've made, and who will spin any yarn it takes to minimise Kurdish coverage. --Moby 10:39, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Do not blame me for 'exposing' you monitoring my edits. I merely reviewed your contributions. I never accused you of stalking, I told everyone I wont be making the conclusions.

First step of any kind of investigation is to determine a motive. Based on your statement you confirm that your intentions are simply 'to get rid of me'. Thats not exactly an example of a friendly enviorment. Davenbelle was also pretty desperate to get rid of me.

--Cat out 02:07, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Please to not misrepresent what I said. I said that I wanted to be rid of you not that I wanted to get rid of . The meaning of what I said is that I do not want you opposing everything I or others try and achieve on articles and categories related to Kurds; you spun it so that it sounds like I want to put you in a river. --Moby 10:18, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I frankly do not see the difference in your comment. 'to be rid of you' and 'to get rid of you' sounds pretty much same to me. So you want me to leave the topics you disagree with me? Are you suggesting that I can't disagree with you? --Cat out 17:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Cool Cat has problems with Kurds and Kurdistan. I remember reading a comment by User:Cool Cat stating how Kurds had a president in Turkey and what else could they want. I've asked the user politely to stop contributing on the PKK article because this user had a political point of view. But told me I couldn't ask him this. Ozgur Gerilla 02:41, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Ozgur you have a "I support PKK" userbox, so you have a POV too, in order to maintain WP:NPOV on an article both view points should be presented not just yours, please try to understand this. -- - K a s h 10:42, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

No, you have got it all wrong. What you need to understand is that my support has nothing to do with WP:NPOV because I believe that could be controlled by a person. But I told User:Cool Cat that I did not contribute to the PKK article because I thought it will be wrong and asked him to not contribute too. Ozgur Gerilla 17:17, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh but he doesn't. You cannot possibly expect any editor to cease editting a article simply due to the withdrawal of your own insertions. I have a stupendous point of view on Keiji Inafune, but that does not interrupt my ability to leave my feelings at the door. However, it is known that Cool Cat is somewhat aggresisve on this subject, and a small amount of leeway for other subject matter would behoove him. This certianly dies not mean he isn't a valuble contributor to these articles. -Zero 17:36, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I am the person who gets categories like Kurdish terrorists AND Turkish terrorists deleted. I will 'agressively' remove Category:Kurdistan from articles related to turkish provinces and cities (reasons have been discussed to death). In parallel I will also 'agressively' remove "terrorist" referance from Kurdistan Workers Party even though I belive it is indeed a terrorist organisation. I am impartial when applying NPOV. --Cat out 20:43, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Zero, I wasn't aware of a few rules or the way people behave on subjects such as this one because I was a new Wikipedian. I was making a point to User:Kashk despite its correctness. What I mean is, if there is information users want to add to the article no user should restrict the individual from doing it; I have only ASKED CoolCat to stop contributing because I saw this user making offensive comments on KURDS not the PKK.

CoolCat, I think you need to learn when to use your anger. Agressively removing Category:Kurdistan from articles related to Turkish provinces and cities isn't the right way to act in my thoughts because many unbiased books have used the term for the region. Ozgur Gerilla 21:15, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a classical "wrong version" argument there. Oh and btw, I am not an emotionaly motivated person. What offensive comment are we talking about? --Cat out 09:47, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

"Kurds Turks and others use the same fountains, they can elect their leaders and be elected, hell there was a Kurdish President, even Americans dont have a Latino or Black President." that's from you. That's offensive. I don't know where in Turkey you've lived and for how long but in east and especially in southeast Kurds are discriminated and there is evidence for this. So instead of classifying my comments try to understand other point of views on the issue. Ozgur Gerilla 12:42, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Which part? Forced labour camps or the Colored seats/fountains? Take a look at 1960s and the US will ya?

For all you know I could very well be a kurd. You can't criticise me for my opinions on some random talk page. I cant even remember when I made that comment.

--Cat out 17:55, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

The part where you say "hell there was a Kurdish president" as if thats enough for the Kurds and they don't need anything else because they had a president. You probably visited Turkey for a month and you're talking from that experience I've lived there for years and I've seen how many Kurdish politicians or artists can be successful in Turkey. Yilmaz Guney, Leyla Zana and Ugur Mumcu some of those who were killed or jailed because they were Kurdish. Oh, you more likely to come out to be a MHP Turk then a Kurd with comments like those. I am free to criticise you on a comment because your later on actions are pretty aggressive on Kurdish articles. I can remind you when you've made those comments if you think I've made them up. Ozgur Gerilla 01:35, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Slur is not welcome. Calling someone a "MHP Turk" in my view is more than a violation of WP:Civil and perhaps WP:NPA too. Something tells me your intention was not a compliment.

FYI, I visited turkey for over two years and I was in the SE region. I am not affiliated with any political party in Turkey or outside. My comment was pointing out the obvious, a kurd was elected as president in Turkey. I find that it is fascinating for a member of the ethic minority supposively discriminated to be elected as president. If you are offended by that I cant quite help you.

You are under the impression you are free to do whatever you please. WP:ANB/I is not a place where you get to discuss politics. This is also not the place to criticise anyone. Take it to a talk page, not here.

I will not bother responding to your comments posed here further as per the warning on top of the page. Best to ignore.

--Cat out 10:16, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Go ahead ignore me. I am not here to discuss politics I am here to tell people that User:Cool Cat is disrupting the Kurdish categorization efforts. You've said, for all I know you could be a Kurd and my opinion is with that attitude towards the Kurdish articles you're more likely to be a ultra nationalist Turk. Ozgur Gerilla 12:46, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

'Aggressively' removing Category:Kurdistan from articles related to Turkish Provinces and Cities constitutes disruption in cases where Kurds are, and have long been, the majority. --Moby 07:53, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I beg to differ. Its probably the tenth time I am posting the same argument... but here it is:

Do you have a census to back that up? No. Do we have any 'traditional' borders? No. Then it is disrupion to add a Category:Kurdistan as it neither has defined borders nor basis. Every corner of the United States or North America is Native american territory with that analogy.

Kurdistan is a proposed political entity (country), kurds are a cultural entity (ethnicity). My problem is with the proposed political entity in the light of wikipedia policies and guidelines.

--Cat out 09:47, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Strawman argument again; no one is characterizing it as a proposed country -- Kurdistan is a geographic and demographic region. --Moby 10:05, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh really. So PKK isn't campaigning for a country called Kurdistan... Seems like a pov fork attempt to me. In any case, I will not be pulled into this useless 'debate'.

The questions still are:

• weather or not User:Moby Dick is stalking me.
• weather or not User:Moby Dick is a User:Davenbelle sockpuppet.

If both questions answer a Yes, then an admin intervetion is definately necesary and perhaps more serious mesures.

--Cat out 14:37, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Back to the stalking sock/question

I suppose I can understand people not commenting much on the evidence presented, as it's hardly short and simple. However I think Cool Cat deserves it to at least be assessed. I'm not at all familiar with this dispute, or the history of either editors editing. There is probably far more to this than I've had time to look at (although I have tried!), so I certainly don't feel confident enough to take any specific action. However, the evidence presented by Cool Cat with regard to "weather or not User:Moby Dick is stalking me." and "weather or not User:Moby Dick is a User:Davenbelle" does seem fairly convincing. It is a shame that for technical reasons the checkuser was inconclusive, so it can't be verified that way. There does seem to be far too many co-incidences listed above to suggest Moby Dick is a new user that had nothing to do with Cool Cat before registering, and does seem to be paying just that bit too much attention to his actions.

I also note that as Moby Dick as stated a desire to 'to be rid of' Cool Cat, and I can't imagine Cool Cat wanting Moby Dick to stay around him, I suggest that both users take each others pages off their watchlists, don't check each others contribs, and don't make any effort to interact with each other (and actively try and leave article disputes to other editors if you come across each other that way). Outside of this situation a quick glance at contribs suggests very different interests, so there should be plenty of editing to get on with away from each other.

Please note by me saying this I am not commenting on Cool Cat's behaviour with relation to the Kurdish related disputes. I don't know enough about that, however he came here with a request for admin review on this specific issue and I feel it should be addressed one way or the other. Petros471 09:19, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I do not monitor "User:Moby Dick", I wouldn't have had the time to prepare my evidence has "User:Moby Dick" didn't get me blocked and give me the free time. As per advice of User:InShaneee I have initiated an RfC Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Moby Dick as the matter is complex in nature and requires more than a short review here as you point out :) --Cat out 09:52, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

• I have also assessed these coincidences, and have come to three conclusions:

1. There isn't a snowball's chance in hell that Moby Dick was a real newbie when the account started to edit in December 2005.
2. Moby Dick is someone with a previous grudge against Cool Cat.
3. I don't know how likely that makes it that Moby Dick is Davenbelle. Pretty likely, I guess, but I wouldn't undertake to say. But I suggest that Moby Dick needs to avoid Cool Cat from now on, or he may find himself in ArbCom trouble in his own right, quite apart from the Davenbelle question. Bishonen | talk 01:56, 19 May 2006 (UTC).

I am fine with this suggestion but under the circumstances I feel checkuser data of User:Moby Dick should be kept longer than a month (of course concealed from the general public as per privacy reasons). User:Moby Dick, weather or not he is Davenbelle, now knows how to evade detection.

I guess The matter has gotten me quite paranoid, but I'd see this as a wise precation. What do you think?

--Cat out 10:40, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

That seems reasonable and harmless. Bishonen | talk 00:11, 20 May 2006 (UTC).

I have already stated that I am not User:Davenbelle's sockpuppet. And I am hardly stalking User:Cool Cat. I believe I first noticed him on the CFD for category Kurdistan and took a dim view of his attempt to minimise Kurdish related material. I feel that the Kurds deserve to be fairly presented on Misplaced Pages. I have looked at his history and this is how I learned of his arbitration case and users like Davenbelle. I also noticed User:Megaman Zero on both of their talk pages.

This whole discussion is supposed to be about his disruption of Kurdish issues and I believe that his accusations are merely an attempt to change the subject. Since I reported this, he been all over my editing, showing up on pages I've just edited and badgering me (see: )). He has been hyper-aggressive in all of his talk towards me - I could easily make a counter argument that he is stalking me.

What I want out of this process is a clear path to proceed on towards a consensus on the various Kurd issues. He does not seek a consensus, he seeks his way. --Moby 07:04, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

The title of this sub section is "back to the stalking sock/question", and hence I am under the impression you are trying to change the subject.

My "hyper-aggressive" tone in question is only demanding sources for the 'contraversial' section you have restored. I am not condoning ruzgar in any way but in order to restore a section on an article, you should have a basis I suppose?

As for the 'stalking' argument, hardly. I monitor many articles related to Turkey, Kurds, Armenian Genocide, etc... especialy high profile articles such as politics related ones. I noticed a revert war on Nationalist Movement Party (I have a script for that). I was suprised to find you as the other party revert waring. Thats one way to seek a consensus... more like force it. What caught my attention most was the false rv vandalism claim by ruzgar. I am not willing to stop monitoring articles I had been monitoring for months just because you have started editing them. My topics of interest currently is limited to Star Trek, Kurds, Turkey, various anime... surely its not all that much...

--Cat out 10:40, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean to imply that you have some sort of priority over me in regard to Kurdish articles? --Moby 12:18, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I do not see where you got that idea. I monitor a large number of articles for vandalism etc... My bot also monitors every edit made to wikipedia on over 12 languages for vandalism... --Cat out 18:01, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Since I am involved, I have investigated the talk page of the article in question. It is definately a smart move to place the kurdish flag on the talk page of an article about a "far-right nationalist political party in Turkey". How would you define your tone and actions? --Cat out 15:54, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Ruzgar stated that there was no Kurdish flag and I showed him that there is indeed such a flag. I would characterize my tone and action as polite and encouraging. --Moby 12:18, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't. Firstly, revert wars are bad taste. I am sure there are better ways to discuss the article rather than pouring gasoline on fire... I am not going to bother discussing the content here. --Cat out 17:32, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

MobyPenis and PenisMoby

It would appear that someone created these accounts based on my username:

MobyPenis (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
PenisMoby (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

--User:Moby Dick 11:19, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Then report them in WP:VIP. I have gotten 44 such accounts blocked. Shanel had 212 such impostors --Cat out 13:32, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

both had been blocked already for several hours before Moby Dick even reported them here. ;) Syrthiss 13:37, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Probably by either my or Curpses script... --Cat out 13:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Stalking

The stalking question and the unanswered question of whether Moby Dick is Davenbelle are quite important here. In Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Coolcat,_Davenbelle_and_Stereotek, the following remedy was passed:

Davenbelle (talk · contribs), Stereotek (talk · contribs), and Fadix (talk · contribs)

2) Davenbelle (talk · contribs), Stereotek (talk · contribs), and Fadix (talk · contribs) are counseled to let other editors and administrators take the lead in monitoring Cool Cat (talk · contribs). If subsequent proceedings which involve Cool Cat show that he has been hounded by them, substantial penalties may be imposed.

Passed 6-0

If Moby Dick is performing substantially the same function as were Davenbelle, Stereotek and (to some extent) Fadix prior to the arbitration case, then his behavior is of a kind that is clearly described as problematic by the Arbitration Committee.

If Moby Dick is Davenbelle himself (and I think there is a very strong circumstantial case for this) then substantial penalties are merited.

As a corollary, Moby Dick merits a strong administrative warning, which I now issue in my capacities as a sysop on English Misplaced Pages and Cool Cat's mentor.

I warn you to keep away, as much as is reasonably possible, from articles, talk pages and other pages edited by Cool Cat. There is substantial evidence that you are following a pattern of stalking or harassing behavior towards Cool Cat, similar to that described in the arbitration case. Should you continue on your current course, substantial remedial action may be necessary. --Tony Sidaway 16:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I have answered this question already. As to the view that I am stalking User:Cool Cat, I feel that it is an unwarranted description. I will not belabor the point.

I have no interest in dealing with this disruptive user. I will remove his page from my watchlist (Zero's, too). While I can hope to not encounter him again, one can not know the future; if we do meet again, I would ask all to carefully look at whether one of us followed the other into an article. I will avoid editing articles that he has recently edited. I can hope that he will show me the same courtesy. --Moby 10:18, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

You say that and your next edit is to Category talk:Kurdish inhabited regions, a category I "negotiated" its creation as an alternative to Category:Kurdistan with User:Ed Poor, my infomral mentor...

In your words, what would you consider stalking?

--Cat out 12:42, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I was anwsering a question put to me by User:Hattusili. Please do not stalk me. Uncle Ed said that his offer to mentor you didn't work out. --Moby 13:13, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Fascinating. Now he accuses me of stalking him... I am not stalking you. I am merely watching articles, categories, and templates especialy the ones I create or help create, edited etc as I have done so since long before you even registered.

He said that to you didn't he. FYI we straightend it out the misunderstanding via email, a matter of no conern to you....

Oh and btw "text-decoration: blink;" is annoying, please don't use it.

--Cat out 15:00, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

As a participant in the ArbCom case against Coolcat, I would like to comment on this. The first thing that should be mentioned is that Tony Sidaway should read the decision of the ArbCom again, and accept the fact that any penalties can only be issued as a consequence of "subsequent proceedings", that find that I, Davenbelle or Fadix has done anything that is not according to policy. The ArbCom decision doesn't give him any right to use his adminship and mentorship, to harass and issue "warnings" to any user that oppose the POV editing that the ArbCom mentioned that Cool Cat had engaged in, and perhaps still might be engaging in. Sidaway has no right to issue any "administrive warnings", and demands that editors such as Moby (or any other editors) should not edit any articles that Cool Cat is interested in. If he believe that Moby or other editors do something wrong by opposing Cool Cat's editing in some specific articles, then he should start an RfC or an RfAr against them instead of engaging in any such threatening behavior. Tony Sidaway should accept the fact that he is Cool Cat's mentor, and not the mentor of any editor that might oppose Cool Cat's POV editing. He doesn't have any special authority over any editor, except Cool Cat, and he should stop pretending that he has that. -- Karl Meier 15:42, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Your participation wasn't voluntary on the arbcom case last time I checked.

Is it pov to suggest that a census determining ethnicity hasn't been preformed in Turkey or is it pov to remove pictures of corpses from PKK. Thats the entirity of my edits in articles related to Kurds, Turkey, Armenians that one can vaguley start argue about the controversial nature... I also "disrupted" categorisation efforts by gathering concensus (regardless of the number of politicaly motivated keep votes) that over a half of the categories were inaproporate.

Lets assume I was indeed pov pushing for the sake of argument. What did MegamanZero do to deserve Moby Dick's special care?

Arbcom desicions on occasions have had direct impact on policy. Behaviour arbcom found inaproporate will still be inaproporate weather or not if arbcom has a ruling spesificaly against a person. Constantly nit-picking is always a violation of required courtesy and hence falls under harassment.

--Cat out 08:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Where do I claim that I volunteered to participate in the ArbCom case? You should stop making such false and irrelevant claims. I have no opinion on the specific matters that you have been disagreeing with other editors such as Moby Dick, because I don't know the details of these disagreements. What I do know however, is that the ArbCom found that you have a history of POV editing in articles re Kurds and the Turkish state in general, and I should be surprised if you have changed your ways and ended your violations of NPOV. The fact that you are getting yourself intro trouble and POV disagreements when editing the same articles that the ArbCom declared that you have been POV editing on, just make it more obvious that you continue your POV editing, to promote your pro-Turkish government/anti-Kurdish POV.

Regarding your claims that editors that is opposing your editing, which you have a history of POV editing on should stalk you, harass you or whatever, then that is something the ArbCom should make a decision about. There is nothing in policy that support that a admin can block anyone, just because such allegations has been made. -- Karl Meier 22:27, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Sock investigation

• A sockpuppet check through checkuser to compare davenbelle and moby dick is not possible due to technical reasons.
• Similar editing behaviour between Davenbelle and Moby Dick has been presented above.
• We have been told by davenbelle that he lives in Bali which according to the article is +8 UTC
• According to
  • Davenbelles most active times are 3:30 UTC (11:30 bali time) 9:00 UTC (17:00 bali time).
  • Sharp drop at 5:00 UTC (13:00 bali time). Looks like a lunch break given its afternoon
  • 14:30-16:30 UTC (22:30-24:30 bali time) appears to be the time where lowest number of edits are observed. Not too early to sleep
  • Number of edits increase after 24:30 which is odd but he said he was traveling so it may actualy be consistant if he was traveling 3, 4 or more timezones practicaly shifting day/night a few hours... Smaller volume implies that he was temporarily in this location.
• According to
  • Moby Dicks most active times are 9:00 (17:00 bali time) and 12:00 UTC (20:00 bali time). 17:00 spike is identical to davenbelle.
  • Moby Dick edits after 6:00 UTC (14:00 bali time) with minimal numer of edits prior.
  • Sharp drop at 15:00 UTC (23:00 bali time) to 0. 23:00 is not a bad time to sleep.
  • Edit pattern resumes at 1:30 UTC (9:30 bali time) not a bad time to wake up.

Data is consistant with a person editing from +8 UTC... Or at least editing at same hours.

--Cat out 21:48, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

This is ridicules. It doesn't prove anything regarding time zone, and of course absolutely noting regarding the identity of the editor. I remember that you have also accused me of being Davenbelle (and Fadix) and even demanded that it should be investigated in connection with the ArbCom case. Some months ago I was actually editing from + 8 UTC (Cebu City, Philippines in my case) so according to your logic you should now have a strong case that I am Davenbelle. Or, even better Cool Cat, maybe you should just accept the fact that every editor that oppose you is not the sockpuppet of somebody else. -- Karl Meier 22:43, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Not really. The statistics are based on the percentage of total edits. In order to have a "spike" you would have to make hundereds of edits at the exact hour.

Besides why are you trying to get involved in a case in an attempt to disrupt my efforts to present evidece on a case that does not involve you in any way? What would you consider as "stalking"?

--Cat out 23:59, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Freakofnurture move warring

Freakofnurture (talk · contribs) has moved more than a hundred pages related to Washington state highways based upon his unilateral interpretation of what the "correct" article names should be. His edit summary seems to indicate that he believes that this is some sort of game, the object of which is to "pwn" whoever he's determined his enemies to be. As User:Tawker notes, move warring on these pages while the matter is pending resolution is a blockable offense. As before, if nothing happens I'll assume that means it's okay for me to move the pages back. Thanks. —phh (/_c) 15:13, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Move warring is a blockable offense, as is any other kind of warring (wheel, revert, edit). My personal preference would be to leave the pages where they are *now* pending whether the parties in that proposed arbitration accept the arbitration. The statement supplied by Freakofnurture with a slightly incivil edit summary can be submitted to the arbitrators as evidence on the side of SPUI et al. Moving them back would just be another salvo in the move war, however objectionable the current naming is to the other side in the dispute. Just my opinion. --Syrthiss 15:32, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Freakofnurture at least appears to have a solid reference to base the move on. Is this reference in some way suspect? Kim Bruning 15:44, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

The reference doesn't strike me as neccessarily relevant. Imagine Nevada's state highways are officially named "Nevada State Route XXX", as opposed to Washington's official "State Route YYY". Misplaced Pages reasonably might still prefer to use a uniform name scheme for all US state highways, so one of the official nomenclatures would have to be ignored. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 15:52, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Thats my read on the situation as well. --Syrthiss 15:53, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

No one is arguing that the reference is suspect. The point of dispute is whether "correct" should be the principle to apply in deciding what the article names should be (WP:NC(CN) gives several instances in which it is not). Regardless, the facts of the matter are that Freakofnurture is aware that this dispute is taking place, is aware (if he keeps an eye on this page, as all administrators should) that multiple admins have said that move warring on these pages is a blockable offense, yet chose to aggravate the move wars anyway. —phh (/_c) 15:59, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Especially seeing the length of the dispute and the RFAR, moving the pages again was inappropriate. Snoutwood (talk) 16:14, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

This is getting somewhat tiring. Could everybody at least agree upon not moving hundreds of pages around until it's clear what becomes of the ArbCom case? -- grm_wnr Esc 15:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. For those of you who'd like a link, here is it. Snoutwood (talk) 16:01, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I strongly suggest not moving the pages back, on the grounds that if moving them while mediation is pending is bad, unmoving them would be equally bad, and presumably you would like to take the high ground here (perhaps only minimally higher in this case, but still...) Thatcher131 16:06, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry, I wasn't planning on it. Snoutwood (talk) 16:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that was a general "dont move them" to the assembly, not a "dont move them snoutwood!!1!!" ;) --Syrthiss 16:22, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. Thatcher131 17:45, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry... indentation confusion. :) Snoutwood (talk) 17:53, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that moving the pages back would be equally bad—if anything, not moving them back is tantamount to rewarding bad behavior. Regardless, if I am being asked to "take the high road" by leaving them where they are for now, then I shall take the high road (a road I seem to be taking a lot these days, with no reciprocation from the other side… but never mind). However, I'd appreciate a clarification of the situation here, because I can only see three possibilities:

• Move-warring over these pages is a blockable offense, and therefore Freakofnurture will be blocked for having done it.
• Move-warring over these pages is not a blockable offense, and therefore anyone may move them with impunity, although they shouldn't.
• Move-warring over these pages is a blockable offense for PHenry, but not for Freakofnurture.

…and I'd really like to know which of these rules I can expect to be subject to today and in the future. —phh (/_c) 18:11, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Blocking exists only to prevent offenses, not punish them. If Freakofnurture isn't move warring anymore, then there's no point in blocking him - for the time being. And anyhow, the idea on Misplaced Pages is to take the high road. Someone has to do it, and it sure as hell won't be the other guy. Also, maintaining the status quo isn't meant to "reward" any kind of behaviour. It's meant to give us time to chill out and talk about the issue rather than bash our heads together repeatedly. The encyclopaedia won't die if people are directed to the wrong article for a day or two. Johnleemk | Talk 18:27, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Moving them back would be equally bad because it would start and/or perpetuate an edit war, and the only way edit wars ever solve content disputes is when one side or the other gets worn out and quits. I express the hope that some kind of dispute resolution process (article RFC, user RFC, a policy debate somewhere, or RFAR) will lead to a settled final answer and the articles can be moved to their final names then. In the meantime, names of the style Washington State Route 599 should all redirect to State Route 599 (Washington), so ordinary users of the encyclopedia should not be affected.

Problem is it's been 3 months and neither side has tired. Infact both sides have just become more determined they're right and now it's moved beyond the point where either side will budge per vendetta that they are "right". The only recourse at this point is a binding decision by the Arbcom that is currently in progress. JohnnyBGood t c 20:42, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Move warring over these pages is a blockable offense, for Freakofnurture and PHenry (and SPUI, and anyone else) IMO. I personally am not inclined to block FoN now because it is after the fact, though I might have blocked him at the time if I (1) had noticed it and (2) I had been cognizant of the RFAr related to such moves. Personally I would haved probably just asked him to stop, but thats me. I think it was a good faith move based on what he felt was compelling support, based on a possibly erroneous assumption (to be decided by the arbcom if all sides agree). I wanted to thank you for your forbearance in taking the high road. As you say, too often people feel that two questionable actions balance out at a reasonable action...when really they are equally questionable. --Syrthiss 18:33, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd say to add him to the RfAr and leave them as is, assuming the previous names redirect. Reverting all those movies would probably be messy. --Avillia 18:55, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Just because this bloody stupid move warring has been going on for so long, I'm inclined to block on sight any editor who renames any state highway article (that's not an obvious typographical error).

I would do this for the good of the encyclopedia—the editors involved are generally productive, helpful, positive contributors (mostly). It's a terrible waste to soak up their time and energy on such a bloody stupid set of wars, and I'd like to think they will appreciate an intervention from their friends and colleagues to help them break this bloody stupid habit. Is there support for such an intervention? We can save them if we make the effort! TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:17, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

So you'd block me for doing this? Seems like disruption to me. --SPUI (T - C - RFC) 01:52, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

What's so complicated about this? Most pages linking to individual, state-maintained, numbered highways will be other pages related to the same state. Within the boundaries of each state, such highways are referred to by their proper names, i.e. "State Route 599" or "SR 599". However, since other highways with the exact same name also exist in other states, the parenthetical disambiguation is used. In the infrequent event that these are referenced from an an article pertaining to a different state, then specifying forms "Washington State Route 599" or "Washington's SR 599" can be used for clarification to the reader. Furthermore, User:Atanamir has a letter from the Washington State Department of Transportation supporting this nomenclature.

What more do you need? Demanding that I be blocked and reverted on proceedural grounds is ridiculous, because:

• This is not a move war.
• I moved the pages once each.
• They had not been recently moved.
• The moves were based on newly presented evidence from WSDOT.
• This "moving a bunch of roads at once is a blockable" idea is something Rschen7754 came up with so he could block SPUI and Locke Cole, with whom he was engaged in personal conflict.

Suggesting that "not moving them back (to the wrong titles) is tantamount to rewarding bad behavior" is itself tantamount to rules-lawyering of the highest order. — May. 16, '06 <freak|talk>

Uh huh. This "I'm right and everyone else is wrong, so nyaah!!" attitude is exactly why the arbitration case needs to be taken up, the sooner the better. —phh (/_c) 06:03, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

(Translation: "don't cloud the issue with the facts"). Let me know if you have a satisfactory reason to moving the pages back. I have given several reasons to leave them at the titles I moved them to. If, however, you are firmly convinced that anybody agreeing with SPUI is full of shit, then it's a waste of time to even talk about this. — May. 16, '06 <freak|talk>

God! Haven't you been paying attention? Or do you just not care what anyone says unless they agree with you? No one is arguing about the facts. The question is about the best way to apply the existing principles and conventions to these articles—a question for which there are valid arguments on both sides. But you've decided that none of this matters because you're right and evvv-erybody else is wrong, so you prefer to bludgeon everyone with your move warring rather than run the risk that the normal discussion process might arrive at a solution that you disagree with. —phh (/_c) 14:54, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

You could go on all day about how you don't like me, but once again, do you have any rebuttal other than smearing my name? If so, spit it out. — May. 16, '06 <freak|talk>

Well, I'm someone who doens't dislike you, and I think you made a very poor call, right or wrong, in moving those pages. The issue's been mediated, edit-warred over, and is in an RFAR. Moving those pages did nothing but exacerbate the problem. I do not understand how you can justify your moves by saying "I'm right." Wait until the RFAR is over, then follow the decision. My sentiments echo Tawker's below; however, I will also add that had I seen it happening I would certainly have blocked you for it. Snoutwood (talk) 20:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I would be happy to provide a rebuttal other than smearing your name. However, to quote what PHenry has already said, "No one is arguing about the facts. The question is about the best way to apply the existing principles and conventions to these articles." WP:D is clear that parentheses is not the only way to disambiguate on Misplaced Pages, furthermore, it's not even the preferred way. To quote, "When there is another word or more complete name that is equally clear, that should be used." (emphasis mine). Thus, in these cases, the more complete name (Washington State Route 539) should be used.

Also, you state in your post: "However, since other highways with the exact same name also exist in other states, the parenthetical disambiguation is used." (again, emphasis mine) This may have been a grammatical oversight on your part, or you may be referring to your newly imposed standard for Washington. However, in the 28 out of 50 states (30 counting Washington and California), the articles are named with the state name first.

(AK, GA, HI, ID, IL, IN, IA, KY, LA, MD, MN, MS, MO, MT, NE, NV, NH, NM, NY, NC, ND, OH, PA, SC, SD, VT, VA, WV, and WI, plus D.C., Guam, Puerto Rico, and the U.S.V.I., since I know someone's going to ask.)

An additional two are named not with parenthetical disambiguation, but with local common names: Kansas with K-xx and Michigan with M-xx.

Now I'm not saying that just because it's 28-18 (leaving out Kansas, Michigan, California, and Washington), that must mean that I'm right and you're wrong, because that's not what it means, and I'm not saying that this constitutes some sort of official naming convention, because it doesn't. What this does mean, though, is that the "State Route X (StateName)" format doesn't follow any sort of naming convention either. To rephrase your statement more accurately, "Even though other highways with the exact same name also exist in other states, the parenthetical disambiguation is not used with any sort of regularity. -- Northenglish 00:33, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

News media may quite commonly use the phrase "Attorney Jack Thompson" to distinguish him from "Actor Jack Thompson", but these designations are not part of either man's proper name. Given two topics with the same proper name, we disambiguate them using words or phrases in parentheses, ideally something short, and something that best illustrates how they differ from one another, e.g. Jack Thompson (attorney), Jack Thompson (actor). If we have two people with the same profession, say, two U.S. Congressmen, we would disambiguate by state, or if they were from the same state, we could go by term of office. Since each state, in and of itself, has its own nomenclature for numbered roads, we should, in the innumerable cases where these names are non-unique, disambiguate by specifying in parentheses, the name of the state where each road is located. For a road with a non-unique name that is not limited to one state, we sometimes disambiguate using a region, e.g. Route 26 (New England).

As for the highways in Michigan named "M-XX", see this clarifying post by User:CBessert (Christopher J. Bessert, webmaster of michiganhighways.org, an expert witness, if you will). Let's be clear here: M-1, etc., are not "local common names", as stated above, but rather the proper names given to them by the Michigan Department of Transportation (www.michigan.gov/mdot), which refers to them by no other names than "M-XX". However, this naming system collides with (among other things) that of various firearms, making the disambiguation "... (Michigan highway)" necessary. — May. 19, '06 <freak|talk>

Tawker's 2 cents

Blocking anyone for a week old event seems to be rather pointless and I am not suggesting anyone in any way shape or form does such. With respect to moving it back, it is best to simply avoid any more moves until a reasonable response to this dispute has been settled. As far as I am concerned there is no right or wrong naming scheme, we have a dispute and lets settle it like the mature human beings we are not 2 year olds in a sandbox -- Tawker 03:39, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Even two year olds in a sandbox can work harmoniously... ;) --Cat out 13:10, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

User page use and definition of "personal attack"

Moving this to User talk:Circeus as it doesn't seem to require administrator intervention. --Tony Sidaway 01:16, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Copyvio

I have been alerted in the past that I have breached Copyright. I am not knowledgeable in this area and need help. I suspect others do too. Can anyone explain to me clearly as to when an article or part of it violates this rule, giving examples. Thank you very much. Kind regards. Wallie 19:35, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

For text, it's really very simple--all text should be original. There are certain circumstances in which public domain text can be incorporated, but only if it's explicitly and unquestionably in the public domain, which generally means it was published (not written) before 1923 and its source is stated (we generally take a "better-safe-than-sorry" line on text that might or might not be PD, so it's best to steer clear of it altogether). But for all intents and purposes, you should only put text into Misplaced Pages if you wrote it yourself. Images are far more complicated, but you referred to articles, not images. Chick Bowen 23:01, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Chick. You are the only one who replied. I suspected I may not get many replies, as this is a difficult and complicated subject. However, some admins are quick to mention that someone has breached Copyright, but I am unsure if they are just guessing. Wallie 05:58, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Until you know how to drive, don't drive. Until you understand the following don't add anything you didn't create yourself and don't delete what others have added under the claim of copyvio (it is actually quite complicated):

• Misplaced Pages copyrights
• Public domain
• Fair use
• Reusing Misplaced Pages content
• Copyright violations WAS 4.250 12:46, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for this, WAS. Doesn't this contravene "Be Bold"? Wallie 17:53, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Not really. It all boils down to "Do your own work. Don't copy that of other people." The rest of it just describes the very few exceptions to that rule. --Carnildo 23:08, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Is that not Original Research? Wallie 06:40, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

No. Let me explain with excamples

Original reserch would be for example writing about your own theories of physics.

"Do your own work. Don't copy that of other people." means you can base the birth date of Albert Einstein from a website but you can't copy paste everything on the website...

Of course this is a rough explanation. It can be quite complicated...

--Cat out 12:39, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Excessive userboxes for deletion

I'm moving this to Misplaced Pages talk:Templates for deletion because it is clearly not something that needs administrator attention. --Tony Sidaway 01:08, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I tend to see it differently. As this pertains (among others) to an Administrator and his use of his administrative authority (closing TfDs, making deletions, etc), I think this belongs here. When I asked for informal mediation, the consensus of the mediators was for me to come here, because the issue was of such scope that the mediators felt it should be dealt with here. Even granting the possibility your premise, that this issue may not need the attention of an administrator, I can't see where it clearly doesn't. I hope that the Admin community will consider acting to cool the fire under these deletions which seem only to increase divisiveness by applying unadopted policies & undermining attempts to reach consensus on userboxes.

In support, here are three administrators' comments from the discussion showing that this isn't something clearly outside the scope of WP:AN/I, since they identify policy issues, disruption issues, and adminship issues that this involves:

• BorgHunter: I think the mass TfD flooding constitues WP:POINT. Not really a very good way of making it, either, just makes everyone mad.
• Aaron Brenneman: Excessive nomination for deletion are disruption. Excessive deletions are disruption. Having some patience is a good thing.
• CBDunkerson: Mass listing of userboxes which violate no existing policy or guideline. Userbox deletion debates routinely being closed by the nominator. Templates being deleted even over an obvious super-majority consensus to keep. Such actions are clearly disruptive and even abusive of administrator powers and need to stop. If it is really so vital that we 'cleanse' the Template: namespace of all references to the value of the circumference of a circle divided by its diameter, boxes providing a link to the person's blog, boxes indicating the person lives in the UK, et cetera then we discuss it and agree on a policy to that effect. Trampling over people and deleting regardless of the outcome of the TfD discussion isn't the way we do things and must not be tolerated.

Please bring the discussion back here. --Ssbohio 02:29, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Every single comment you have cited above refers to excessive nomination for deletion. This is not an admninistrative matter, but should be dealt with by the normal dispute resolution process. And as we speak, there is an application on WP:RFAR concerning this matter. --Tony Sidaway 16:44, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Nomination by PZFUN, and Speedy keep of several articles by Slimvirgin

PZFUN nominated 36 Judaism-related articles for deletion in what, to be honest, looks like a WP:POINT (though I want to AGF), apparently supported by NicholasTurnbull, who also voted to delete, and was on most of them the only person other than PZFUN to do so. Many of the articles seemed to be legitimate, although some could use tidying; for example, there were pages about important rabbis like Dovber of Mezeritch, one of the most important figures in Hasidic Judaism. This almost certainly has to do with a recent row between PZFUN and User:IZAK, where IZAK objected to PZFUN's AfD nomination of another Jewish article, and the row led to harsh words, which led Nicholas to block IZAK, and a fuss ensued. This seems to be some sort of follow-up. I've closed the AfDs as speedy keeps, which is not to say that there aren't some that might be legitimate noms (I did find one that clearly was, so I didn't close that one), but these bulk deletions coming so soon after an argument seem inappropriate. I'd welcome other input on this. SlimVirgin 15:50, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

While I would tend to agree that some of the articles nominated do seem non-notable, I do question his motivation behind the mass of nominations, especially due to the timing. --InShaneee 15:54, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't know, should a user or admin be slowed down, just because someone else has been uncivil at them? He's been doing cleanup, by the look of it. If I had looked, I might have even speedied some of the nominated articles, as they simply do not establish notability at all.

I agree with Slimvirgins Ignore All Rules speedy closure, just to keep the peace for now, but those articles really really need review. (some of the articles so speedy kept had like 5-10 delete votes on them... not normally a speedy keep :-) ) Kim Bruning 16:12, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that some need to be tidied, but it might have been better to do that than nominate them, and in some cases just as fast. For example, all that was really wrong with Ben Zion Halberstam (The First), a notable rabbi, was that someone had added a long list of his descendants, so I deleted the list, and the article, or stub, is fine now. It's not exactly an FA candidate, but it should certainly survive an AfD. SlimVirgin 16:48, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of the situation, the closes were a poor idea, IMO. They certainly weren't speedy keep candidates, they had opposition, and some of them certainly wouldn't meet standards. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEMES?) 16:16, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the closures were a bad idea. Most of those articles clearly needed review. --Strothra 16:27, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I too agree. Irrespective of the motivation for a nomination, once an article is AfDed, the discussion belongs not to the original nominator but to the community writ large; where other users have expressed support for delete on legitimate grounds, the debates oughtn't to be closed (to be sure, where all "votes" were keep and where no legitimate reason was given for deletion in the nom, a speedy keep, per WP:SNOWBALL and WP:IAR is in order. Finally, the timing of these AfD is, of course, rather interesting, but we ought to continue to assume good faith; one often finds that, after a vociferous debate has ensued apropos of a given AfD, other similar articles may be AfDed, primarily because, in looking at one article one thinks to be deficient/unencyclopedic, one often finds articles that share characteristics with that which one has AfDed. Joe 16:35, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Many of them were speedy-keep candidates. But regardless, the row between PZFUN and IZAK got pretty nasty, and then Nicholas blocked IZAK for NPA, so it's inappropriate for those two editors to try to delete 36 articles that IZAK probably cares about just a day or so later. I'm assuming good faith here (I don't know PZFUN but I understand he's a good and trustworthy editor, and I know Nicholas is), but you can see why they might look like bad-faith nominations, and the appearance of that should have occurred to them. If the articles are that bad, someone else will nominate them. SlimVirgin 16:30, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Which ones were speedy keep candidates? Like, how so? --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEMES?) 00:08, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, while you have a bit of a point, it would mean that to prevent a legitimate (set of) edit(s), all one has to do is start a row with the editor in question. :-/ Kim Bruning 16:40, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I take that point too. I think perhaps part of the problem here is that many of these figures are not written about on the Web, or not much, and so much of the sourcing is in books. It would help in future if the editors on these pages could make sure they add full citations for their sources, then editors reviewing the articles can at least see that someone has done careful research, even if they can't immediately check the source. SlimVirgin 16:52, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed! :-) Kim Bruning 17:01, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

There are some difficulties with these personalities with reference to finding references. Most of the legacy of a particular Rebbe will be various teachings that have been passed down and quoted, and the mythologies of tales told about them. Often they will be collected in a book, but in some cases not. If they are collected in a book, it may well be in Hebrew or Yiddish - their communities are often quite closed and isolated. You will likely find mention of a rabbi (or of their magnum opus, by which they are often known, or of their title ("Kotzker Rebbe", "Skulener Rebbe", " Bobover Rebbe")) with reference to a particular teaching used in an article. On the other hand, these personalities could be treated like royal families- they are members of dynasties where patrilineal descent plays a major role in heirdom: for some of the more minor personalities, they may only be mentioned in a listing of the chain of Rebbes in a Hasidic group. In this sense, while Misplaced Pages has articles on even the most obscure members of some royal families, the chain of descendency of Rebbes should definitely be kept, as long as their existence in that chain is verifiable, even if no extensive references on the individual can be found. jnothman 00:59, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

That completely flies in the face of Wikipeida:Verifiability. We can't and shouldn't have articles that are based solely on hearsay, particularly on hearsay that cannot be proven or even demonstrated in any way. Páll 01:03, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I only said it may be hard to find any verifiable sources. It is clear that these people exist. Even some facts about them may be findable and verifiable. But even those of their teachings or stories that may only be "hearsay" are still noteworthily associated with that person. Misplaced Pages documents myths in great detail - although their subjects may not be verifiable, the existence of the myth about that subject is highly verifiable. I certainly hope that more accurate and verifiable written information can be found, but I'm not sure where to look. Still these discussions on the difficulties of finding highly verifiable information on these personalities doesn't in any way excuse your nominating 16 of them on the basis of no references, specualativity, sounding like an ad and non-notability, when these factors were often simply untrue: see my arguments below. jnothman 01:54, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Nominating so many articles for deletion at once was a bad disruptive thing obviously, but I think SlimVirgin doing a mass-keep was not a good idea either. That gives the (most likely false) appearance that an administrator is using his/her adminship position/leverage a bit beyond what one should do. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 17:02, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

While discussing of policy is great fun, what needs to be done now is to actually get these articles cleaned up. Preferably to featured status, of course ;-) Any suggestions that might help with this? Kim Bruning 17:09, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I feel SlimVirgin's action was wise, even though obviously not conforming to standard policy, and indicated for the greater good of the Misplaced Pages project. --Lambiam 17:49, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I also think that SlimVirgin's intervention was justified; among these AfDs there were articles that were very obviously not reasonable candidates for deletion - Dovber of Mezeritch - and that casts the other nominations in a rather bad light as well. I do have one minor quibble though: maybe it would have been better to close the AfDs by explaining why the bulk nomination was a mistake, rather than by saying "the result was speedy keep" - as that was not where most of the actual deletion debates seemed to be going. David Sneek 18:24, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with the Speedy Keep action. It seems heavy handed, given that there was no consensus, even if you ignore the original parties. Yes, it makes sense that old rabbis are notable, but their articles are not exempt from the same scrutiny and process as all others. If they have verifiable sources, the sources should be cited in the articles - they don't have to be instant Web or google sites. Same goes for the schools and camps, although one would expect those to have a google-space presence. WP rules are there to be followed even if a mass AfD nomination casts doubt on AGF. Crum375 18:21, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Nominating 36 articles like this is disruptive behaviour, which can only cause bad feeling with editors involved in them. The proposing editor should have considered the likely inflammatory effect on others of such a mass proposal deletion and made some attempt at communication with those likely to be affected by it, if only to make the reassurance that there were genuine grounds for making so many all at once. The articles I have checked have nothing at all on their talk pages. This situation can only be interpreted as AGF, if one also assumes that the proposing editor is quite insensitive to others. The mass speedy keep of the articles was not ideal, but it does allow a breathing space, instead of provoking a war. Tyrenius 19:05, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

"Speedy keep" was definitely the most appropriate thing to do under those circumstances. Nominating for deletion Israel ben Eliezer, the founder of Hassidism, was so obviously contrary to WP:POINT that no result other than speedy keep could be expected. We already have a precedent when mass AfD nominations by Striver done to prove a point in a discussion on List of Muslim athletes were speedily kept. Going through the entire procedure of voting, commenting, and closing during such mass nominations is a waste of Wikipedians' time. Pecher 19:16, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree totally with your point about Israel ben Eliezer, and anything like that (if any) - and in that case I would second a Speedy Keep of course. But at the same time I would probably warn the nominator and follow with a block unless the behavior can be explained away, unlikely in this case. But I think the Speedy Keeps of other, unsourced articles is improper. Crum375 19:37, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

In case it helps, I'm in the process of going through the articles to tidy up the writing and request sources. It'll take some time given that there are 36 of them. From what I've seen so far, some are taken in part from the public-domain 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, which is written in a style that's completely inappropriate for Misplaced Pages, so that explains some of the writing issues. As for the unsourced ones, if the requests for sources aren't answered fairly soon and/or if I can't find any, I'll put them back up for AfD myself, so hopefully that'll remove any lingering unease. SlimVirgin 19:49, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Here is PZFUN's explanation, which seems rational enough to me. But I am sure SlimVirgin acted in good faith and her constructive response above makes sense too. So let's hope all these articles are cleaned up or deleted as appropriate. Crum375 20:17, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

• I'm just wandering since when AfD supplanted {{verify}}, especially when it comes to established editors. This en mass wave of deletion strikes me as rather discourtious, possibly even a provocation. The question arises as to why the user in question did not place pertinent tags, pose querries on article and user talk pages? Also, as a secular & atheist, I recognize quite a few of these names, perhaps to the (dis?)credit of the IBoE. Anyway, what I wish to bring to Kim's attention (why am I picking on him? let's just say I gots my reasons! :p) is that en mass acts which are likely to involve heated emotions, should best involve a centralized discussion prior. Basically, established editors are entitled to some fair warning when their entries are not viewed as being up to par, and an AfD isn't the first step, it is the last. El_C 21:51, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I quite agree, however the attitude by the previous editors has made it quite clear that non-Jewish or non-Jewish imput is not welcome, as per IZAK's comments on a previous AfD: "People should stick to their areas of expertise and not stick their noses into subjects" Páll 00:34, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

It is rather striking to me, that on the one hand, you appear to agree with me on AfD being the last recourse, and on the other, you justify the need to do so by quoting material from an AFD. But what about the monolithic ("reads like an ad"?), en mass nominations? El_C 03:40, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I feel a speedy keep was the only option here. Although some of the noms might have turned out to be okay, it is clear the PZFUN decided to nominate these articles in bulk without forming an objective opinion on each one. It looks even worse since most of these articles were actually created by IZAK and were linked to his userpage. I am also a secular/atheist but unlike El C I have had no formal Jewish education and even I recognize a lot of these name. All of this gives the appearance of the worst kind of WP:POINT.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 22:52, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Wow, I find this discussion slightly disturbing. While it is true that IZAK and I did have a row, that had nothing to do with my abilities as an editor here. Some have said that I disrupted Misplaced Pages to make a POINT, but what point was that? That there are many articles, regardless of what they pertain to, that merit listing on AfD? The subtitle of WP:POINT is "dont' disrupt Misplaced Pages to make a point," which I did not do. I listed articles which many agreed with as meriting deletion before SlimVirgin Speedy Kept them. While the merits of SlimVirgin's actions there are debateable, I'd like to know what kind of disruption I made. And to reply to the allegations of bad faith, I will copy what I wrote on IZAK's talk page:

"Uh, I have a lot of Jewish family members, including my father. If you want to make this personal, so be it, but it is hardly bad-faith to list articles that currently meet none of the Misplaced Pages checkpoints, such as Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, Misplaced Pages:Sources, and Misplaced Pages:NPOV. Just by merely saying "If you were Orthodox, you'd know him" does not make something notable. Such statements need to have third-party references (ie, they can't just be on their personal page) and must be verified, in otherwords, they must be proven to exist. When an article has no sources, it cannot be assumed by a secular institution that something is indeed encyclopaedic. As for groups, there is a certain level of Misplaced Pages:Notability requirements; in other words, just because something is there, doesn't mean it necesarily deserves an article. There is no article on my Street Association because I can't prove it exists since we've never published anything, nor would an informal organisation of 500-1000 people be encyclopaedic. Please read Misplaced Pages policy before accusing me of bad faith." Páll 00:02, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

PZFUN: I'm not sure I can take the argument, "what point was that? That there are many articles, regardless of what they pertain to, that merit listing on AfD?" as sufficient. As I noted when voting "strong keep" for many of the articles, you had completely false claims in terms of your reasons for nomination. For instance, you used on many of your nominations "No references, speculative, and reads like an ad. Not notable for Misplaced Pages" including on the nominations for Moshe Zvi of Savran, where there was a clear reference and the article did not read like an ad, and on Dovber of Mezeritch, which - if you put in any thought before nomination - you should have found that "not notable for Misplaced Pages" is clearly false as well. It is similarly strange to claim "utterly non-notable" to an organisation with a membership of 8000 (if we have high schools and small townships included in Misplaced Pages, surely this should qualify), and others with multiple international branches and an 80-year heritage. If you were not making a WP:POINT then you were simply being reckless. jnothman 00:46, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it is very much WP:POINT — marking tens of articles for deletion with the monlithic, copy-paste "No references, speculative, and reads like an ad. Not notable for Misplaced Pages" line, regardless if there are references. What I find surprising is NicholasTurnbull's participation in these, with the equally robotic "Delete as per PZFUN." This is highly questionable, at best. El_C 03:40, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Some of them I withdrew after having further discussion, however I might bring up Misplaced Pages:Verifiability and Misplaced Pages:Notability. Páll 00:50, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I did not see any withdrawals when looking now. Feel free to bring up verifiability, but until you go and borrow from the library the books referenced clearly at Yekusiel Yehudah Halberstam or Moshe Zvi of Savran, you can neither claim lack of references, or verifiability, or notability. They are clearly referenced! jnothman 01:03, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

The mass deletion request, particularly of articles created by IZAK, smells of personal vendetta. The fact that a number of them are indeed referenced and the subjects quite clearly notable makes things worse. Speedy keep was obviously the right action under these circumstances. Jayjg 03:05, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I certainly would have done the same thing; likely in a less nonconfrontational manner. El_C 03:40, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I support SlimVirgin's move. A note on PZFUN's talkpage might have helped, but the WP:POINT was showing. JFW | T@lk 19:50, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

SlimVirgin is to be commended for her quick and judicious response to these malicious actions not in the best interest of Misplaced Pages. --MPerel 20:25, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, she did it to prevent all kinds of nasty people from making this kind of personal attacks against PZFUN. Unsuccessfully, it now turns out. Kim Bruning 22:36, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

"Nasty people"? Hmm. HKT 03:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

For the record: Haha! I doubt that I am the original writer or creator of any of the articles that were nominated for deletion by PZFUN, and which ones link to my page? Rather, I may have edited a few of them at some time or other over the years, and perhaps I placed them in their respective categories at some time or other, so it is not because of that that I brought this entire exercise into question. My concern/s remain to protect articles and stubs that contain valuable and notable information related to the general subjects of Jews, Judaism and Israel, and NOT to lose them in a hasty drive of "The New Deletionism" that seeks a shortcut to Misplaced Pages's normal process of seeking improvement and sources which should NOT be pushed aside in favor of hasty deletionistic tendencies which merely create a short circuit, and causes more harm than good as the potential for conflict between editors is raised. IZAK 05:56, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your ideals but not with your methods. Kim Bruning 22:36, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Why was it inappropriate for PZFUN to nominate those articles for deletion, and for me to support his various nominations? There was a disagreement between PZFUN and IZAK over a particular AfD, granted, and I did once block IZAK. I accept that. But I can't see really how that had all that much bearing on my ability to vote on Judaism-related articles, and more importantly how that renders PZFUN's nominations illegitimate. If I was forced to stay away from all subjects which I'd ever been in a dispute with a user over, I would almost not be able to edit Misplaced Pages, if I counted the various cases I've mediated, and the same goes for PZFUN I believe as a very experienced Wikipedian who has contributed a lot to the project. Really, I think it's awful that standards of Misplaced Pages article quality are somehow suspended merely because the articles in question fall within a single category, or more importantly a category which has heated connotations I suppose. The amount of bad faith cast against PZFUN is even worse, in my opinion, and is quite at odds with the culture of Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith that we inculcate on Misplaced Pages. Especially since, at the time of writing, PZFUN appears to have decided to leave the project, deleting his userpage - for merely trying to nominate articles that were substandard for deletion, in accordance with both policy and Misplaced Pages standards of editorial judgement. --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 22:32, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

• Christopher: If an article is below par, and at the same time also has importance to a significant sub-set of editors (and hence readers) who understand its notability, the logical thing to do is to request that that article be IMPROVED but not to rush headlong into rash VfD votes which, as you can tell, enrages people. Articles or stubs that in some instances took years to collect should not be mass speed deleted willy-nilly, a symptom of the "New Deletionism" which needs to be slowed down to a c r a w l (where is everyone rushing to exactly?) Obviously some fairly wise and knowledgeable editors are willing to give these articles time and the benefit of the doubt because they know something about the subject. Assume good faith, plenty of articles will improve in good time, Misplaced Pages was not built in a day. IZAK 05:56, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

• Let me begin by apologising for posting here if it is not appropriate, as I am not an administrator. I was dragged into this mess by Kim Bruning, and now feel that it is appropriate that I state my case here.

I first encountered PZFUN at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/First American-Romanian congregation, where PZFUN was nominating a religious group with over a century worth of history for deletion, and mine was the only keep vote. After several days of monitoring this discussion, as well as PZFUN's contributions, it occurred to me that I should mention PZFUN's recent history of nominating Judaica-related articles for deletion ought to be mentioned, viz: . The strongest language used in my comment was as follows: Much as I like to assume good faith, I can't help but see an agenda here. After reading the discussion here on AN, I see that it is largely agreed that my reaction was exactly what should have been expected as a result of such a mass nomination.

I did (sort of) apologise to PZFUN, but I did so largely because Kim Bruning told me to do so on my Talk page. This in and of itself bothers me. After reading this AN discussion, I do not think that my reaction was unreasonable, and I do not think that Kim Bruning's comments on my talk page were appropriate. This was not simply a matter of sub-sorting. A user who, as far as I could tell, had no user page or talk page nominated Menachem Mendel of Kotzk, and over thirty other Judaica-ralated articles for deletion. Menachem Mendel of Kotzk is a name that I've known since I was twelve years old, and I'm not even Jewish (see my userpage; I'm Hindu). I stand my my assumption; I think that it was reasonable; I think that PZFUN's actions did violate WP:POINT, and I'm offended that I was asked to apologise for having stated such reasonable opinions in such a gentle manner. ergot 01:52, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll answer on your talk page, I think you did the right thing apologising. Kim Bruning 22:40, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Ergo: Thank you for your wise words! IZAK 05:56, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

PZFUN and Jewish Summer camps

Why is it very hard to assume that PZFUN is acting in GF when he basically nominated the entire contents of Category: Jewish summer camps, but left the non-Jewish ones in Category:Summer camps alone? --Shuki 23:29, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

WP:AGF: "...here's a difference between assuming good faith and ignoring bad actions. If you expect people to assume good faith from you, make sure you demonstrate it. Don't put the burden on others.... This policy does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary." HKT 17:56, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

This campaign by User:PZFUN and User:NicholasTurnbull attempting to massively delete articles pertaining to one particular ethnic group is highly disturbing. --MPerel 20:17, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

See below, basically it was a stub category cleanup. Thank god he didn't try to cleanup the schoolsstub category. Kim Bruning 21:43, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Kim: By the way a number of the articles in question are clearly NOT stubs. IZAK 05:56, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank goodness, because even more people would have attacked him without reason, that is. Kim Bruning 21:44, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

This doesn't seem to be routine stub-clearing. The timing (and specificity) of the multiple AfDs reflects what is most likely a personal jab at IZAK. Regardless of prior provocation and incivility, passive-agressive editing is inexcusable (not to mention that it contravenes WP:POINT). Additionally, cursory (5 second) research of some of the articles listed for AfD (such as Israel ben Eliezer) would show that "No references... and reads like an ad" itself reads like a bad joke. As such, one may fault PZFUN, beyond violating WP:POINT by deciding to particularly AfD some of IZAK's interests, for either malice or irresponsibility. Assuming good faith when even marginally reasonable leads me to assume the latter. (By the way, IZAK's recent conduct deserves extensive scrutiny, as well.) HKT 00:43, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

• HKT: NO need to point people my way, they have their own views by now in all probability. IZAK 05:56, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Re MPerel - It was not a "campaign" - PZFUN merely went through the Judaism categories and found articles that didn't conform to Misplaced Pages standards of quality - things like copyvios, uncited sources, NPOV issues, lack of notability, etc. all of which are common standards within Misplaced Pages. That's why I supported his various nominations, because I think there are too many crap articles on Misplaced Pages. That's all there is to it - I couldn't care less whether the articles were about Judaism, or anything else (vacuum cleaners, road systems, Pokémon, sex toys, etc.), it just happened that PZFUN had found a whole load of bad articles. And besides, PZFUN is of Jewish extraction anyway, so the implication that it the move was ethnically-motivated is frankly ridiculous. --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 22:20, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

• Nicholas: To be repeat: I for one do not believe the issue had anything to do with ethnicity or religion. Let's put that aside. This is a about KNOWLEDGE, FACTS, and LOGIC all of which are essential to function as a respected and honored editor. (People will definitely sense very quickly if one is genuinely knowledgeable about a subject or not as Misplaced Pages has many experts in many fields and they are quite capable.) Rather I believe the crux of the issues here are about Wikipedians' modus operandi and how Misplaced Pages functions, how it solicits articles, organizes, digests them, and then finally presents them to the world. I see the creation of Misplaced Pages articles as a "birthing process" and just as you cannot produce instant humans and expect them to become adults at birth, often what is required is a show of patience and nurturance allowing the material to evolve and grow. This can't be rushed! The way to deal with issues of quality, NPOV, sources, and notability spread out over more than fifty articles is not by seeking the remedy of "The New Deletionism" whereby articles are nominated en masse for deletion. Each article is different and deserves unique attention. The ones about Hasidic Rebbes were written by many Hasidic editors whom we are happy to have, even though they may have a lack of good English writing skills, they bring invaluable information to Misplaced Pages that cannot be found anywhere else, and we have made great strides. The ones about the Summer Camps are written by more liberal Jews some Reform, Conservative, secular, Zionist writers, basically editors who come from all walk of life, so it's false to label them all as having this or that collective failing when each article needs its own remedies, but does not deserve to be lumped together with all sorts of others not connected to it. You're not being fair when you blithely associate a discussion about Judaism with "sex toys etc" as not all of us are willing to go so far afield. To talk like that is to belittle our seriouness of purpose and challenges our ability to be true Wikipedians always trying to meet the required NPOV standards. It is perfectly correct, logical, and Wikipedian for editors to restrict themselves to areas they feel most comfortable with and not wander all over the place stepping in invisible minefields and causing inevitable disruption when none was necessary. IZAK 05:56, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

The claim that none of the articles nominated for an AFD were verifiable is clearly erroneus, as is the claim that an objective opinion was formed for every single article, almost every single nomination summary was the same, it was a clear cut-and-paste operation. Many of the articles had sources, they just weren't on the internet, they were books that were properly cited at the bottom of the article. Even if it was true that they had no references that does not make the subject any less notable, you do not nominate an article that is about the founder of Hasidism for deletion, you request more sources, or possibly a cleanup (although many of the AFDs didn't even need that). Also the idea that being part Jewish makes his actions any more valid is ridiculous.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 22:48, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

It seemed to me, Nicholas, that you didn't actually evaluate the individual articles and voted on the basis of their nomination by PZFUN. That is not assuming good faith, that is following in blind faith. I had assumed that PZFUN was making the nominations for the sake of Misplaced Pages, and had thought him sincere, but he didn't seem to put enough care into making his nominations truthful. jnothman 22:55, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm tough on notability (in my opinion there should not be any articles on summer camps, whether Jewish, Christian or secular) and I would have supported the deletion of many of the articles, but I declined to participate. Nominating several similar articles at once is okay sometimes, but mass nominations are disruptive. People comment on the articles that matter to them and nominating so many articles at once wears them out because they'll want to participate in many or all of the discussions (also they probably have other things on their plate, like creating articles and/or real lives). Most likely, they'll eventually resort to a copied and pasted comment or just say "keep", or they'll assume bad faith never even try to justify the articles on an individual basis. This upsets the nominator and he or she thinks that they are just voting keep because the articles are all about Jewish, Christian or Pokemon topics. Another problem is that some truly notable articles are often nominated along with the cruft, like in this case. This makes the other side think that the nominations were bad faith and makes it even less likely that they will participate in the nominations in a normal manner.

My advice is to not overload AfD participators by nominating too many articles at once. Also, make sure that there is not even one notable article in the group. Don't count on AfD to sort it out. People will probably think that all of your nominations were in bad faith and all of the articles will probably be kept because of that reason. Also, I think that people should assume good faith even if some notable articles get mixed into a mass nomination. Although some nominations may be so blatantly bad faith that this does not apply. If possible, editors should participate in the AfD as if it was a good faith nomination. If there are just too many articles to do this, the nominations should be closed and the truly bad ones should be renominated slowly and carefully. -- Kjkolb 09:03, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Cyde Weys

Template:TrollWarning

I've moved this section started by User_talk:PHDrillSergeant to his talk page, and am urging him to take this to the next step in dispute resolution. This page is not for resolving longstanding disputes between editors, but for dealing with relatively urgent incidents that may need the attention of an administrator. --Tony Sidaway 00:04, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

This is a place to put a complaint against an administrator isn't it? --mboverload@ 00:07, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, Tony does have a point... This isn't the place to complain really. What action are we suppose to take? Sasquatch t|c 00:10, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

A discrete complaint about a discrete administrative action, yes. A neverending diatribe more suited to RFC, no. · Katefan0 00:11, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

It is a place to report an administrator, but only if the user has discussed it with the administrator first. It's also recommended at the top of this page, to use WP:RFC rather than this page. --lightdarkness 00:22, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

There isn't a argument on whether or not it's been discussed with Cyde. I'd also note that Please is not You must. --Avillia 00:32, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

This is not the place to "report" an administrator. It's a place to come to for the attention of an administrator. --Tony Sidaway 01:01, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

"If you want to make an open informal complaint over the behaviour of an admin, you can do so here, but <blahblahrfc>" --Avillia 01:16, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

The complaints against Cyde seem to be in accord with the instructions for the use of this page. Tony's decision to move the ongoing conversations (both this section and mboverload's above) elsewhere smack of censorship, or at least trying to quelch arguments he doesn't agree with. Tony shouldn't close arguments that he has taken part in. -lethe 01:22, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

You actions smack of wikilawyering, Tony. --mboverload@ 01:25, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Assume good faith. If a section is created on this page that doesn't require admnistrator intervention, it makes sense to move it to a more suitable location. The section can still be located and the discussion can continue. But in a more suitable venue. --Tony Sidaway 01:29, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Well it's not going on my talk page. It says clearly this is the place to report an administrator, and action may be required against Cyde --mboverload@ 01:32, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

If you have a case, then "action against Cyde" would be something that the arbitration committee would be able to take. They're thataway. --Tony Sidaway 01:39, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

And do you do that regularly? Can you show me other examples? It seems to me that you did this in particular to silence a whole lot of people who disagreed with you, but I'll be happy to admit I'm wrong if you show me some other examples. -lethe 01:32, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

How do you reconcile your sense that the Cyde discussion was inappropriate for AN/I with the open informal complaint prescription? To be sure, one doesn't want general discussion to clog a board to which many users otherwise unfamiliar with WP come to report disruptions with which administrators ought to deal; where one wants to solicit opinions apropos of the conduct of an admin, though, it would seem that a noticeboard frequented by other admins, who are likely well able to adjudge whether one would be wholly off-base to question a given action, would be a fine place for the discussion. The point is to solicit the views of the community writ large (especially of admins, who are likely to have experienced situations similar to that about which a complaint is made); an RfC, of course, effects the same result, but we are to look with disfavor upon formalistic and quasi-adversarial proceedings here wherever we can. Joe 03:40, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, this simple move seems to have attracted precisely the same kind of trolling that has made it necessary. ;) --Tony Sidaway 01:37, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

That's a neat trick how you can tell people to assume good faith and accuse them of being trolls in the same breath. -lethe 01:39, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

When you say things like "It seems to me that you did this in particular to silence a whole lot of people who disagreed with you", you leave me with little choice. Stop trolling. --Tony Sidaway 01:41, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Be mindful of WP:AGF and WP:NPA, please. -lethe 01:46, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

How does it work where I get accused of personal attacks for saying someone doesn't like women as a joke, and you go and call him a troll without repercussion? We can't state out opinions about people's behavior anymore? --mboverload@ 01:50, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Given that there is an ungoing issue over that admin's behaviour, it seems reasonable to discuss here, not fork it off somewhere else. Given the sheer scale of endless controversy over Cyde's behaviour, perhaps his conduct needs to be examined by the Arbitration Committee. FearÉIREANN\ 01:48, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure we need an RfC before that can happen. --mboverload@ 01:52, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Repeating for the record: There have already been two filed, one by Lulu of the Lotus Eaters, the other still up at RFC/Cyde2 --Avillia 01:58, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but I belive we have seperate issues. That one seems to be pretty narrow. --mboverload@ 02:05, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Cats out of the bag now. WP:RfAr. --Avillia 02:01, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Tony, I find your decision to delete this discussion a bad one. -lethe 03:34, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. As I said in my earlier post (which was removed when Tony moved the original post), I do think some of the complaints against cyde have been unjustified or plain trolling, but the fact that so many have been made, some of which seem possibly legitimate, suggest that this issue should be investigated. And since this a recurring complaint, not just a one-time disagreement, I think this should be discussed openly and not on some obscure user's talkpage. The Ungovernable Force 05:38, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Was Avillia's note above too terse? People seem to be carrying on without taking in that an RFAr has now been filed against Cyde. Could this thread be moved somewhere more appropriate, please? Bishonen | talk 05:51, 21 May 2006 (UTC).

Tony, please do not call people trolls all the time. It just causes trouble. Thank you. Wallie 07:34, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I see no reason to object to Tony's actions. PHDrillSergeant was calling for Cyde to be desysoped, which is not something admins (or even bureaucrats) can do. (A key requirement for ANI listings is that they require admin intervention. The only actionable portion of the diatribe was the part pertaining to an alleged sockpuppet of Cyde (whose evidence was not convincing; a checkuser conducted by two different users has confirmed that Cyde and Fake User are not related). People who want an open discussion on an admin's actions ought to open an RFC, not make their diatribes on a noticeboard for actions requiring admin intervention. ANI is not a part of our dispute resolution process. Johnleemk | Talk 11:27, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and re the "If you want to make an open informal complaint over the behaviour of an admin, you can do so here" clause at the introduction of ANI, the complaint was not informal. It was calling for Cyde to be desysoped, something which (rightly) is not and cannot be done informally. An RfC or RfAr should have been filed; if all that was wanted was community comment, RfCs will do the job. Having two RfCs open at the same time on the same user would be a bit unprecedented, but not wrong in any sense. Johnleemk | Talk 11:30, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I think it's probably time to reconsider the "informal complaint about an admin" clause. We're getting some ridiculously petty complaints and they and their associated trolling are beginning to dwarf and severely degrade this page.

Even so, the existence of the clause does not mean that WP:ANI is the most appropriate place. One section I moved was simply a complaint about TFDs of userboxes. This is already a very high traffic page and we should feel free to keep it uncluttered by removing nonsense and hopeless rubbish. --Tony Sidaway 13:06, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd say that that clause if working just fine. The completely trivial are mostly ignored, the complaints about proper actions usually get appropiate feedback that the admins is doing a fine job. A single instance (or three) where one or two people disagreed with an ongoing discussion does not an allowance to sweep clean make. - brenneman 13:19, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Maintaining this page is the responsibility of all of us. Nobody needs "allowance" to tidy it up. --Tony Sidaway 16:34, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Moving this discussion to the talk page is a nice attempt at comprimise, much better than outright deletion, but I still cannot agree with the decision. -lethe 16:47, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Can you honestly look at the complete bilge above and claim that it has any place on this busy page? --Tony Sidaway 16:52, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand why you want to silence complaints about Cyde. OK, it's clear that you think Cyde's actions are acceptable. But why not let the rest of us discuss the matter? You are of course free to join in the discussion, something which you have been doing. -lethe 16:58, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the issue is with this matter being discussed here. It is not at all clear what purpose it could serve. If there is a general issue with Cyde's behavior there should be an RfC. If the RfC has not cleared the air then mediation might be a good idea. If mediation doesn't go anywhere there's arbitration. What is being discussed here that requires the specific attention of administrators? Mackensen (talk) 17:04, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I think it's appalling and disappointing that reasonable steps to move discussions to more appropriate locations are being resisted on transparently spurious grounds. Nobody has tried to stop discussion. There is no appropriate place to engage in these little hate-fests against Cyde, in defiance of the dispute resolution policy. However there are legitimate issues that can be discussed at other venues and where such venues exist I have made reasonable attempts to move discussion there. To call this "silencing complaints" is utter rubbish. --Tony Sidaway 19:36, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Schutzstaffel

I ask other admins to keep an eye on this article. There is a user making questionable edits and possible POV statements about German translations. When I attempted to compromise with the editor, he reverted my changes as "vandalism" and then filled the talk page with some very heated remarks and openly stated I was vandalising the article. I anticipate he will continue to revert any changes to his original edit (possibly breaking the 3 revert rule in the process). I'm just asking folks keep an eye out for this. Thank you! -Husnock 23:38, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I put a note on the discussion page of the article. German translations are reasonably clear cut. Hope that helps. Thanks. Wallie 06:39, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmmm....

202.40.137.201 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) - Is clueless to how Misplaced Pages works and has called several users bad names. He is also getting on users nerves. ForestH2

Block of user, reporting here

I'm still a new admin, so reporting this block here as well to make sure it was correct. I've blocked User:58.162.234.115 for violating remedy 1 of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Agapetos angel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JoshuaZ (talk • contribs)

Oh, grr, thanks for that. Can't even sign my comments... don't know how anyone trusted me to be an admin ah well...JoshuaZ 03:52, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Pansophia again

Can someone please look into User:Pansophia's conduct again? He has been abusing open proxies in order to circumvent the 3 revert rule on Kaiser Permanente. I decided it would be best to semi-protect the article, so now he is logged in and continuing to revert. He's reverted 8 times today, no discussion. I think the continued open proxy abuse deserves a community ban or a very long block. Thoughts? Please see Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Pansophia for some background. Rhobite 03:51, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I've blocked him for 48 hours for chronic reversion. I have not blocked for longer because I haven't had a chance to check if the IPs are in fact open proxies. If someone else has the time they should check and verify that and possibly consider lengthening the block if they turn out to be open proxies. JoshuaZ 04:01, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Here you go: 201.6.255.175, 210.182.62.41, and 58.239.206.239 are all in the DSBL and I already blocked them indefinitely. Thanks for blocking User:Pansophia. Rhobite 04:08, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Potentially Offensive Pages

What I'm talking about here is pages that involve controversial material and pictures(!)such as Penis, Naturism, et al. Is this really appropriate for a family encyclopedia? We always browse Misplaced Pages as a family and if I were to click on random article and a page of that nature were to load, I dont know what I would say to my 3 adorable children. I highly recommend that at the very least you remove the photos, thereby saving this dad some unnecessary explanation and embarrassment. Daddy loves you Jake, Haley, and Ashley!Family Man 07 04:32, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

As is so often said, Misplaced Pages is not censored for minors. Sorry. --Mark Neelstin 04:36, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I feel for you. Em bare ass ment is certainly the right word. But I think you need to reconsider your adjective "unnecessary". It is a wonderful opportunity to teach your loved children what you wish them to know about things like penis. If you don't teach them, they will just learn it elsewhere. Maybe from Misplaced Pages without you by their side lovingly explaining things. WAS 4.250 14:27, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a "family encyclopedia". We try to compile "all human knowledge" (impossible, but a lofty goal!). Moreover, I agree with WAS. Kids are a rather resistant to shock from nudity, especially if a grown-up can explain the situation. However, if, for some reason, you still want to avoid exposing your kids to "questionable" images, you can configure most web browsers to not display images. For Apple's Safari, go to Preferences->Appearance and uncheck "Display images when the page opens". For Firefox, go to Preferences->Web Features and uncheck "Load Images". For IE, get a real browser ;-) Have fun browsing (and contributing)! --Stephan Schulz 15:14, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

My son just saw the page on Hitler. Now he won't stop having nightmares. I may have to take him to a psychiatrist. My wife won't stop screaming-hold on a second....Ashley, do your goddamn homework! Anyways,...um....HELP!Family Man 07 23:39, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

You may wish to find another place to discuss this, as our Administrators' noticeboard is certainly not the place to complain about your troubles at home. Werdna_T@CL 01:47, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Slight problem here. After again reading the Hitler page my son is no longer "afraid" of Hitler. No, now he wants "to be like Hitler"! Misplaced Pages, don't get me wrong, I love ya, but....What I'm tryin to say here is are you gonna help me fix this kid or what!? How bout we go halfsies on the -Jake, put that goddamn thing down!

I gotta go.Family Man 07 01:51, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Hey look, it's the ANI troll again! Blocked. --Cyde↔Weys 01:53, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Bad Astronomy, I suppose

New user User:Bad Astronomer added links to his forum to about 15 different pages. He has slowed down after a few warnings, but would now appear to be claiming to be Philip Plait, I suppose, by copying Phil’s article text to his user page. He has now added links to his forum to Phil’s main article, including a few misleading re-directs and has removed the link to the actual Bad Astronomy forum. Since I’ve already exchanged words with him on the spamming; I would appreciate a second set of eyes for his recent edits. Thanks! Kuru 05:00, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

He's being pretty deceptive with his spam. I gave him a final spam warning and reverted his latest edits. Rhobite 05:14, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Morale!

I have been doing some small investigations, and I know exactly where to look. Certain people, mainly admins, are taking a decidedly adversarial stance with users, when coaching is what is needed. HRM would not tolerate this in a large Corporation. The result is that decent people are being driven away. I look at certain people's talk pages, see repeated confrontations, and blocking, when the admin can't get his (yes usually his) way. I look at the other party's user page, and guess what... "I've had enough." "I'll never come back" etc". The good work that many many people, both admins and users, in building up morale is being quickly dissipated by a few bad eggs. This CAN be rectified NOW. What are you going to do about it, guys? Wallie 20:04, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Drink a milkshake and watch television? --Avillia 20:10, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

That's not funny. Wallie 20:17, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I got a giggle out of it. --InShaneee 20:55, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

You would! Wallie 21:06, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Any editor can be a mentor; it's not only up to administrators to teach new users how to conduct themselves on Misplaced Pages. · Katefan0 22:47, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

"Nothing's gonna' change the world," said the one man in the last century whom everyone thought capable of making a difference. There will always be a few bad eggs, and the only thing you can do is to try not to be one yourself. AmiDaniel (talk) 22:53, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The blockings will continue until morale improves. --Carnildo 23:12, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

• Note: Tony took this seection away, saying it is trolling. This is not trolling, at least that is definitely not my intention. This is a serious issue to my mind. However, if it is in the wrong place to discuss this, then say so. Thank you. Wallie 07:02, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

How can blockings improve morale? Wallie 07:27, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Really, Misplaced Pages is unusually polite with vandals. First they get the nice {{test}} message, and then the {{test2}} message, and only by the time things reach {{test3}} are the messages even threatening. Then they're blocked for maybe 24 hours. It takes major obnoxiousness to be blocked for an extended period. If anything, the ease of repeat vandalism is driving away serious editors. There are articles that have to be fixed several times a day, every day. This is bad for morale. --John Nagle 07:34, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

31 hours :P. --Celestianpower 18:49, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I clearly agree and empathize with that. I guess that admins get upset and have morale lows too.

The main point I wanted to discuss was that people are getting banned or as least annoyed over edit wars in which an admin or his (usually) friend is one of the participants. If an admin disagrees with another editor, irrespective of who is right, the admin pulls rank and bans, warns, or is insulting to the competitor. The other person feels very hurt, as one does when slapped down by your Line Manager. Wallie 07:42, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Wallie is complaining about the banning of User:Aidan Work, who in his brief time here engaged in personal abuse, homophobic rants, widescale vandalism, posting libellous comments on his talk page about a politician (I think it was) and insulting everyone who wouldn't let him write in extreme right wing POVs into articles or wouldn't let him delete non-extreme right wing edits. Work was finally axed after a reign of abuse. Wallie doesn't seem to understand the scale of Worth's behaviour and thinks that a gang of nasty admins ganged up on poor elderly Mr. Work, beat him up and kicked him off ruthlessly. Some incautious comments were made about Worth by some users in sheer frustration at his abuse of them (often he laced those comments with extreme homophobia and rascism). Adam called him a "homophobic slimeball". That user may well have been tactless and offensive, but given Work's comments against gays (and everyone else to the left of the KKK) it pretty much summed him up. FearÉIREANN\ 09:45, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Nope. OK. I will be a little specific, while not going into too many grubby details. I was objecting to one particular guy who I though was still trailing after Aidan, baiting him, and I thought gloating. I hate that sort of thing. Yes, I had crossed swords with him in the past too. In Aidans case, I always say if you do the crime you do the time. No more no less. As for the slimeball remark, I was just using this as an example that we can all get annoyed at times when baited. I can fully understand why he said it. It is the baitor I have an issue with, not the baitee. The "victims" I referred to in this section do not include Aidan. Wallie 20:17, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

(Reply to Wally): When you have concrete cases of admin abuse bring them here. As you may have noticed, Misplaced Pages is not a corporation, but an encyclopedia. We do not have a strong hierarchy. Essentially, everybody who has been around productively for a time can become an admin. If some admins "pull rank", they are wrong. I have not, however, experienced that more than once or twice in my 2.5 years on Misplaced Pages. --Stephan Schulz 11:11, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

• Some points here, in response to Wallie: (1). If you compare Misplaced Pages to other community-type websites, you'll find that we're actually more tolerant than most when it comes to not blocking/banning users. For all but the most egregious offences, we give warnings (usually several) before blocking. That's more than, say, the average video game forum will do. (2). Misplaced Pages cannot really be compared to a corporation, as corporations often have high employee-acquisition costs. However, you'll find that corporations are pretty quick to get rid of bad employees too. If FearÉIREANN's statement above is true, and you're posting to protest the banning of someone for homophobic and/or racist remarks, then you'll find that coporations have NO tolerance for that sort of crap. (3). An admin taking a bad user under his wing and slowly but surely rehabilitating them and turning them good is a nice story, but it's basically just that: a story. Admins don't get paid here, and most of us have jobs and/or school and social lives outside of Misplaced Pages. Homophobic and racist feelings tend to run very deep, and getting rid of them could take years even for a trained counsellor, which wikipedia admins generally are not. We can't expect to purge the world of all its racists, homophobes, or other miscelleneous bad guys through "coaching". What we're here to do is make a great 💕, with as little trouble as possible. No more, no less. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 13:27, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Well said, Sir. --Celestianpower 18:49, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

At Misplaced Pages you get lots of warnings before banning/blocking, that's true but some other websites you can get away with extremely bad racial/religious trolling. Have you gone to http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport, go to the cricket section, the message board, and looked at what goes on in the South Asian noticeboard??Blnguyen | Have your say!!! 07:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

• Hi. Just to clarify. I was not actually thinking about the case that Jtdirl is mentioning. That is a separate issue, and is definitely outside the scope of the issue here. I also agree that you can't have as you say "this sort of crap", and I don't think admins should have to or are up to counselling of that sort. I am not suggesting that either. That is the dilemma... if I make a general inquiry, it is up to interpretation - someone may get the wrong idea. If I give a specific example, then attention gets diverted onto that case, and everyone focuses on that, and not the general issue. Anyway, back to the topic. This is meant to be a general observation, not a specific case study. Thank you. Wallie 19:30, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok. Our way of dealing with the general problem is to look at each case individually - for simple cases by discussion here, or through conflict resolution.--Stephan Schulz 20:08, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

• What it comes down to, I think, is whether "coaching" is really a task suitable for administrators. Let's imagine a possible scenario: I'm patrolling recent changes, and come across the Martin Luther King article, which a vandal has blanked and replaced with racist remarks. What would my most reasonable response be? (1) To revert and warn the user, then block if it reoccurs? (2) Or to take the user under my wing, try to find the reason for his hostility toward blacks, and through tender care and love, rehabilitate him into a respnsible citizen? Even if successful, the second option would be an enormous investment in time, which in my case would be better served writing and editing articles. At the very least, to expect "coaching" from admins is asking a lot. Worse still, it could actually make the situation worse, as few admins are trained counsellors or therapists, and few have the qualifications necessary to properly rehabilitate miscreants. What if I did try to coach the imaginary MLK vandal, and botched the job so badly that he went from vandalising wiki pages to burning down black churches? Wouldn't that be partly my own fault? The responsibility of transorming wayward people lies with their own parents, school guidance counsellors, church leaders, etc. It's unfair (to say the least) to expect website admins to do the job. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 16:35, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrator intervention against vandalism Need help please!

List backing up. As does Misplaced Pages:Administrator intervention against vandalism/TB2 is anyone here? - Glen _C (Stollery) 07:14, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Elliott Small's disruption

Elliott Small (talk · contribs) has unilaterally moved race and intelligence to Race and IQ Scores and created a new page at race and intelligence in order to prevent the other editors from undoing his action, as had been done shortly before. He states this is legitimate because another user previously argued for such a page rename, but he didn't notice that user soon after conceded the point (view Macgruder's concession at the bottom of this section: Talk:Race_and_IQ_Scores#The_Huge_Problem_with_this_article:_IQ). (Editors have expressed their disagreement with Elliott's action here.) There are no grounds to retain his unilateral move, and I request it be undone.--Nectar

Done, and move-protected. NSLE _(T+C) at 08:53 UTC (2006-05-21)

Soliciting votes

Schuminweb (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is soliciting votes for a WP:TfD vote. Anyone care to block him? True to form Schuminweb is blatently breaking WP rules (if he isn't unilaterally blanking templates he is trying to tell his friends to vote for the ones he wants. Some things never change. lol FearÉIREANN\ 09:51, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

When his spamming hit at least 20 and rising, I had to take immediate action. As I was initially involved the vote I am taking no more part in the discussion. I only intervened because at 20 and rising, the spamming had to be stopped immediately and no other admin seemed to be around. But the vote is probably worthless in any case given that he has rigged it. Plus ca change. lol FearÉIREANN\ 10:33, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

As far as I can ascertain, he only asked them to give their opinion, not to vote one way or another. Without further knowledge of the situation, I'm reluctant to comment further. Johnleemk | Talk 11:20, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

That doesn't mean anything, John. If for instance I go around and find 20 people who have said nasty things about Tony Blair and tell them an article on criticisms of Tony Blair's foreign policy is up for deletion, then I'm trying to influence the outcome of the discussion. Even though I haven't actually instructed them what to say, I'm still taking action with a reasonable hope,and an obvious intention, of influencing the final decision. --Tony Sidaway 13:00, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

It seems that the template belongs to the WikiProject Anti-war, and all of the people User:Schuminweb was contacting (along with himself) are listed as members of that WikiProject. This seems legitimate to me, as opposed to cherry-picking spam targets based on previous *fD votes, for example. Of course, leaving a note on the project's talk page would seem the more sensible course in future. I've contacted Jtdirl to suggest unblocking. --bainer (talk) 13:12, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

That seems better, with the caveat that I suspect that there is an issue of whether the membership of that wikiproject is a suitable criterion for selection. Wouldn't you expect editors who put their name to such a project to have a slanted view of warfare? I would. --Tony Sidaway 16:29, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, but as a member of several WikiProjects, I would certainly like to be informed if any of the project's templates were up for deletion (although probably on the project's talk page more than on my talk page). Is the topic a WikiProject writes about grounds for discriminating between it and another WikiProject? --bainer (talk) 05:24, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually providing a page for communication and coordination is precisely what WikiProjects are for. If you want all members of a wikiproject to know about something relevant to that project, put it either on the project page or its associated talk page. It will show up on people's watchlists. There is never a need to spam people about a wikiproject. --Tony Sidaway 16:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Jtdirl, could you point out where Schuminweb was warned about not page spamming? I can't seem to find it, all I see is an abrupt block without any warning whatsoever. I'm assuming good faith that you did warn him to stop, and he persisted. (as blocking without asking him first would be assuming bad faith) PS which arb case did talk page spamming come up in? Regards, MartinRe 20:28, 21 May 2006 (UTC) Regards, MartinRe 20:28, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I have informed members of the Wikiproject-antiwar of votes for deletion of pages covered by the project before not knowing that this was controvercial.

While I appreciate that there is a case against informing people on their talk page about deletion votes because of vote rigging, informing people who have expressed an interest in the topic in question by joining a wikiproject on that topic seems to me to be appropreate. Yes it is true that a message could just be put on a the project talk page but users are often slow to check that page, checking their talk page more often.

I think that we need to have a debate about the issule in general. If such a discusion has allready taken place please point me to it.--JK the unwise 11:38, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Bobblewik at it again (date delinking at bot speed)

Tried to discuss on the user talk page, but whatever I try, the discussion appears to be going nowhere, see User talk:Bobblewik#Date delinking --Francis Schonken 12:19, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I've blocked him. Feel free to revert him, if you want Will (_@) T 12:33, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I endorse the blocking. The lenghts of blocks should increase with each spree. User:Zoe| 20:08, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Question

Is cheering people in their talk page when they vote for your position agaisnt AfD Rules? See http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Lentisco. He makes alot of fun comments regarding me and the proposer. Yanksox 12:38, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I've asked him to be more civil. Of course he is permitted to communicate with other participants in the discussion on their talk pages, but he shouldn't be badmouthing you like this. --Tony Sidaway 16:26, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

He was just blocked for this, and began his personal attack spam just after his block expired. --InShaneee 18:09, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Ghajini uploading images

Ghajini (User talk:Ghajini) has been uploading unlicensed and unsourced images for 2 days. After 2 messages no change has been observed, and uploads continue. Usually (Image contributions) images are uploaded with summaries like: "http://www.indiaglitz.com..." i.e. no source and license (or with false license). Perhaps one more warning by an admin or block since 2 warnings have been given. feydey 13:35, 21 May 2006 (UTC) -- Here's the log with deleted images. feydey 13:37, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry about this guys, I will from today onwards give a specific clarification of the source, rather than a overview. Thank you User:Feydey for specifing my fault. I will improve my uploading. Ghajini 19:15, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Category:Candidates for speedy deletion

This category is getting increasingly large, if someone would like to do something about it. --Telex 15:58, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Just removed the backlog marker, only a few images left. — xaosflux 17:42, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

You wanna talk about huge... Category:Images on Wikimedia Commons. Although I don't really understand what needs to be done. Just thought I'd remind those that do know what to do, that they could be doing it. :-) --Mark Neelstin 17:48, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I do some of that, but it is pretty low-priority. Jkelly 18:31, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

SirIsaacBrock

SirIsaacBrock (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is placing his comments out of order (at the top) at Misplaced Pages:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 May 17#Category:Anti-Semitic people, and adding {{cfdend}} on that page (not appropriate), and has several times reverted moving his comments back into the correct order (although always with another edit to avoid 3RR). He is also trolling user pages (2006-05-21 10:36:10 onward) to garner support, and this is annoying even to me, a potential ally. Please block him for 24 hours.

-William Allen Simpson 17:01, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I am warning him against spamming talkpages, but it wouldn't do any good to block him now. He's also been mischaracterizing the nominator's actions and generally failing to assume good faith, so I'm afraid I'm going to have to get out the heavy stomping boots soon. Syrthiss 17:26, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

User:SPUI move warring (shocking, I know!)

So I create a page, and then SPUI comes right along and moves it, despite many, many warnings that moving these pages pending resolution of the dispute is a blockable offense. Is there anyone here who entertains even a fraction of a shadow of a doubt that he's going to move any other pages that I create, thumbing his noses at you guys yet again, if he is not blocked for this stunt? —phh (/_c) 17:41, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Just to check, you're absolutely certain that creating pages like that given the current situation isn't just a teensy bit provocative? —Phil | Talk 21:52, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I've been creating missing pages, one every few days, in numerical order, for several months , so I would have to say… no. It is true that I chose a name that is consistent with the standard that was in place before Freakofnurture moved them all in what appears to have been a deliberate attempt to be disruptive regarding a matter that's currently before the ArbCom because of his and SPUI's actions. I was asked, and agreed, not to try and move the pages back in the meantime, and so I haven't. But I certainly have no intention of rewarding Freakofnurture's and SPUI's bad behavior by adopting their pet naming convention when I create entirely new articles. I've put a lot of time into creating missing articles for the WP:WASH project, since long before SPUI decided to start move warring with everyone, and I don't intend to allow two editors' disruptive behavior to stop me from continuing to do so. —phh (/_c) 22:18, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

While it may have provoked SPUI into moving by creating these new articles at the name he current says we're all stupid for using, that's no reason to for him to go on a move spree, AGAIN. JohnnyBGood t c 17:10, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Nope - nothing wrng with his creation of these. The naming conflict shouldn't affect the writing of articles. --SPUI (T - C) 23:28, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Vlatkoto

Use of obscenities.

Previous offenses:

 /FunkyFly.talk_   17:48, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I gave him a short block to get his attention and left a explanation on his talk page. Rx StrangeLove 19:04, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks.  /FunkyFly.talk_   19:22, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Rms125a@hotmail.com

Banned user User:Rms125a@hotmail.com is editing again. See. Please investigate. Djegan 18:02, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Looks like Sceptre took care of it. Mackensen (talk) 19:23, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

• And back again as 216.194.3.120 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) . Demiurge 20:56, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Block request: mnij92

User mnij92 is giving multiple vandalism

It's Mnij92. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 18:14, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Who hasn't edited past their final warning. --InShaneee 18:30, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

User: Anwar saadat

I am a newbie to Misplaced Pages, but looking at past archives in the Wiki Commuinity, I have clearly spotted that Anwar saadat is a POV. He is biased towards Ajith, a South Indian filmstar. For example if you see here , and he constantly changed the articles back to POV Version and got in trouble with several users including User: Zora, User: Bhadani, User:Prin, User:Plumcouch and several other users. (Please refer to them for more info). He is returning with his boastfulness of Ajith here saying that Paramasivan and Thirupathi are the most successful films of the year and changing success stories for the rest saying they 'also ran'. He is also a known vandalist here showing his particular dislike of Vijay , shockingly he has also labelled Vijay as a murdere of ilm producer G.V! He also has written insulting messages threatening others in tamil such as where he says 'therinju pesu' which roughly translates into be careful idiot, which is not welcome socially! He has also blanked my copyright tags in order to get me in trouble look here he has removed my source, my copyright and my license tag! As far as I'm notified he has been blocked a couple of times (24 hours) but constantly returns with the user ID (212.32.76.121). He constantly abuses Misplaced Pages. I would like to see petition here of people who want Anwar to change his ways quickly. Thanking You. :) Keep Going! Prince 06 19:18, 21 May 2006 (UTC) (P.S. He is also a stalker)

Block Him, obviously Prince 06 19:24, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Both articles, Ajith and Vijay are difficult to edit and in a very bad shape, since fans of each actor are constantly trying to prove their actor is the greatest - indication for that is the filmography and the edit history. It's impossible to add a neutral POV since it is constantly reverted back to fangush. --Plumcouch 19:36, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree totally with User:Plumcouch and it is almost as though, Anwar is the main Vijay disliker and the main Ajith lover constantly praising Ajith and hating Vijay like this ! Prince 06 19:44, 21 May 2006 (UTC) :)

83.30.8.56

Can anybody translate the two edit summaries by the anon here? They added Image:Wolyn1943.jpg (it's unpleasant) to both and it appears to be some sort of anti-Ukrainian attack. And here by 83.30.20.27. Thanks. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 19:12, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Featured Article Editor being attacked for cleaning out a stub category

PZFUN (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) recently cleaned out Category:Judaism_stubs, putting many articles that did not meet Misplaced Pages:Verifiability criteria on Articles for Deletion.

But now people are attacking him left and right and assuming bad faith and whatnot.

Good grief!

Kim Bruning 20:24, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh yes, and he got mad and deleted his user and talk pages. Happy joy joy. Kim Bruning 20:30, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

What does being a featured article editor have to do with anything? This gives him/her no more or no less power, authority or credit than any other editor. The fact that PZFUN is on a campaign to remove ONLY articles about one ethnic group is problematic. User:Zoe| 20:31, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Try again Zoe. PZFUN was cleaning out stubs. Stubs are divided into sub-catagories these days, and he happened to be working on the judaism stubs catagory. If you had cared to actually check the links, you would have found that the articles nominated on AFD are all precicely in that cat. Kim Bruning 20:42, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I think he was just lucky he didn't try this in an area people really care about like schools. There is a reason bulk listing for not meeting Misplaced Pages:Verifiability genraly isn't done (in fact bulk listing is generaly a bad idea for whatever reason when it comes to articles).Geni 20:49, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

(Apologies for my reply above being slightly unfriendly, I'm fairly angry at the moment.) Kim Bruning 20:54, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Zoe, the reason featured article writers are important is because they are involved in the minor&controversial activity of writing a great encyclopedia ;-) We should chase them all away as quickly as possible and rename the site to wikimyspace. :-P Kim Bruning 21:01, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Maybe someone uninvolved should go through the recent stack of speedy keeps of Jewish this-and-thats and re-nominate the obvious deletion candidates on AfD. It would make all the invocations of "good faith" (PZFUN in nominating them, SlimVirgin in closing the nominations) more credible. Just a suggestion. Dr Zak 21:57, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you so much for volunteering to do that! :-) Kim Bruning 22:17, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Nominating major Hasidic Rebbes with random summer camos was something of a faux-pas. Anyone remember Asterix on Corsica, when Asterix and Obelix are in that cave and Obelix mistakes a Corsican chieftain for a boar? ("Never had Corsican chieftain for dinner, and please don't stare at me like that, it gives me a headache!") Per Kim's suggestion I'll go and close all of PZFUN's nominations and will then re-list the non-controversial ones with a suitable note. Dr Zak 22:50, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Re Zoe above - Frankly, I am appalled at how a well-meaning, experienced editor on Misplaced Pages can be accused of poor faith to the degree that they feel it necessary to leave Misplaced Pages, when merely carrying out a task that is perfectly legitimate and in pursuit of improving the editorial quality of the articles in question. To accuse PZFUN of a "campaign" is quite wrong; it was merely a case of having "cleaned out" articles from a particular category, that did not otherwise conform to Misplaced Pages editorial standards such as Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, Misplaced Pages:Cite sources, Misplaced Pages:No original research, etc. I supported PZFUN in his deletions of the various articles, because I agreed with him about them, and we'd talked about them on IRC. I'm not terribly happy with many of the nominations being speedy delisted especially since some had already received delete votes from other participants. I think Dr Zak is correct in his suggestion above. --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 22:10, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I am greatly disturbed by the accusations made about me for stub-cleaning. While some have chosen to view such pruning as an attack on their religion, such a conclusion is entirely erroneous. I am not an anti-Semite. My grandfather is a Holocaust survivor, and I have no place in my life for anti-Semitism. That being said, I am greatly disturbed that nominating articles that do not meet any of the current Misplaced Pages criteria for inclusion as an article, notably notability, verifiability, and referencing has been met with such hostility and anger solely because the articles pertain to Judiasm. As a thank-you for trying to clean up some of the JudaismCruft to be found in ] and other related categories, I have been extremely angrily attacked and had accusations levelled against me that I have either been a Crusader, a POV-pusher, an anti-Semite, etc, all of which are bogus. The only WP:POINT I had to make was that there are a lot articles related to Judaism on Misplaced Pages that do not meet any critera for inclusion. If that is a POINT made in bad faith, as I have so been accused, then Misplaced Pages is in a far more unhealthy place than I ever thought possible.

At no point were other users unable to make their views known in a healthy, non-confrontational manner on all of the AfD pages, on my talk page, or anywhere else: had I really wanted to make a POV-push or make a POINT, I would have circumvented community imput and listed them as Speedy candidates or just deleted them myself. Yet I remain deeply disturbed by the lack of regard for one of the few policies that have yet to make an appearance in this debate: Misplaced Pages:Ownership. Neither Jewish editors nor those involved with the Judaism WikiProject do not own any article nor the right to edit it. If this is the welcome given to anyone who attemps to clean up articles within their scope, then I am not surprised that the article quality remains low throughout.

I am more than happy to apologise for some of the things I did. Yes, perhaps some of the historically rabbis should have had tags applied to their articles before being listed for deletion. But I do not apologise for my attempts to clean out what has become an unhealthy part of the Wiki-verse. Páll 22:12, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Besides the fact that no one called you an anti-semite, your claim that none of the articles you nominated for an AFD were verifiable is clearly erroneus. Many of the articles had sources, they just weren't on the internet, they were books that were properly cited at the bottom of the article. Even if it was true that they had no references that does not make the subject any less notable, you do not nominate an article that is about the founder of Hasidism for deletion, you request more sources, or possibly a cleanup (although many of the AFDs didn't even need that).- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 22:39, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I've taken a look at some of the articles that PZFUN nominated and the notion that the AfD nominations were a matter of clearing out a stub category is not upheld by the array of articles that were nominated. For instance, Moshe Zvi of Savran and Eliezer Zusia Portugal (there might be more; I stopped at finding two) were not tagged with the stub template at the time that they were nominated for deletion. User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 22:58, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

They were, however, in Category:Hasidic rebbes, which is I expect where PZFUN looked, browsing from the top level of Category:Judaism downwards. --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 01:50, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Which makes one wonder why that category was chosen to be the one to be "cleaned out". User:Zoe| 01:54, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the user was just interested in those subjects? It seems like there is a lot of jumping to conclusions here.... Yet another lame sig I came up with 01:59, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I was speaking to the stated assumption that the user was concentrating on clearing a stub category. Evidence does not support that assumption. User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 02:05, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

• I'll repeat again: this seemingly arbitrary, en mass "reads like an ad" nominations of major Hasidic Rabis was highly questionable, at best. And Nichola Turnbull's equally robotic, "delete as per PZFUN" worked to legitimate these disruptive edits. El_C 04:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

• Though I'm skeptical myself of the notability of summer camps, I think the problem here has been that PZFUN took a "broad brush" approach, determining that there was a group of "problem editors" rather than some articles with problems. Personalization is never a helpful thing here, but I can only think that that was the emotive factor behind the AfDing of so many articles on really obviously encyclopedic Hasidic rebbes, something that I think PZFUN is conceding now was an error in judgement. That said, the "this doesn't smell right" comments were unwarranted; bigotry should be the last motive we ascribe to a fellow editor, reached only after we have exhausted the other much more likely possibilities, e.g. pride, avarice, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath, and sloth.--Pharos 04:58, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree, the only motive that could rationally be applied to PZFUN's actions is gluttony, and possibly a little bit of sloth.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 10:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

See, isn't this avenue of criticism much more productive? :)--Pharos 21:03, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

While camps seem clearly dubious, and likely a good find, it far from offsets he insultingly-phrased mass nominations of "really obviously encyclopedic Hasidic rebbes." What PZFUN, Nicholas, and Kim fail to appreciate is the extraeditorial act itself. The talk pages of those articles were not employed and individual attention was not accorded to each entry. Nor were querries placed in other, more central places: the category talk page, the PJ, etc. By entrenching themsleves in their positions, they're setting a bad precedent. El_C 05:08, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

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