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Prior discussion regarding page move

See: Talk:Polish Biographical Dictionary/Archive 1

Requested move

Polish Biographical Dictionary → Polski Słownik Biograficzny – Rationale: 'Polski Słownik Biograficzny' was the original title of the article. This work has never been translated into English and it's current name is unofficial, original research. It is also confusing as there is, in fact, a different English publication with almost the same title (The Polish Biographical Dictionary). Note also that almost all references to this publication on Misplaced Pages use the Polish title, thus in effect over 90% of the links to the article in the current version go through redirects. Please share your opinion at Talk:Polish Biographical Dictionary. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 03:05, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Oppose, per wikipedia:naming conventions (books)#Title translations - also I get the creepy feeling this is a test case for the Polish Cabal how far they can go in bending wikipedia their way. Note that Piotrus' argument regarding the dictionary resumes to: look how successful we've been thus far in replacing Polish Biographical Dictionary by Polski Słownik Biograficzny on many wikipedia articles (which is an unacceptable self-reference argument). It has been amply demonstrated by me that the English version "Polish Biographical Dictionary" is commonly used in *external sources* to refer to this multivolume dictionary, and not to the other one (see talk in archive). --Francis Schonken 08:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. This attempt at renaming is yet another effort by Polish nationals on Misplaced Pages to change as many article names as they can to Polish spelling. The name "Polish Biographical Dictionary" is the most commonly-used English name for this work. To change the article to a Polish spelling would make the article less understandable, would make it more difficult to link to (because of the use of Polish diacritics and difficult Polish spelling), and would make it harder to find in Misplaced Pages category indexes, since to most English-speakers, the term "Polski Slownik Biograficzny" is not intuitively clear as to what it means. --Elonka 15:36, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
• Support as nominator.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 15:37, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
• Support. I'm English and can't grok Polish (though I'd like to learn the pronounciation some day...). Personally, I don't see a Polish conspiracy in this, and probably the most important thing here is that we don't fall out about it: redirects make this at most a fairly minor issue. Having said that, for me, regardless of the language, I prefer to see the original language as the title, or a transcription of it, for proper names, rather than a translation, unless there is a well-established English name for the same. Moreover, I'm not convinced that "Polish Biographical Dictionary" is an actual English name for this topic, as opposed to a translation. To address, in particular, a couple of Elonka's points: linking and searching is no more difficult as redirects solve that problem, and the translation would appear on the first line, so the article would be no less understandable. I agree, though, that category entries would be less understandable. — Matt Crypto 17:05, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose per Francis Schonken. --mav 20:21, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. Per WP naming conventions, why not re-title the articles Polish Biographical Dictionary (Polish) and The Polish Biographical Dictionary (English) or something like? This would make the difference clear in the title of the article and links to it, which I believe is the issue here. Also, this is the English Misplaced Pages, after all, and I wouldn't know what Polski Slownik Biograficzny was if I ran across it in a list or category. Her Pegship 19:00, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

• Support - Cannot find evidence that PBD is a term commonly used in English for this compendium (most links point towards the Sokol book). ~ trialsanderrors 19:38, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

• Support. As I have noted before, this Polish reference work simply does not have an "English name". The title pages has the Polish title, and that's it. In the catalogues of the British Library and the Library of Congress (and any other electronic catalogue I have checked), it can only be found under the Polish title, nothing else. It is not up to Misplaced Pages to invent English titles for publications which have never been published under one. Tupsharru 20:40, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

• Support per Tupsharru. Kusma (討論) 20:55, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

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I find it amusing that one of the main arguments against the move is that it is some sinister plan by a Polish cabal. But unfortunately I find there are also some disturbing arguments, ones that certainly merit further discussion. I'd ask Francis to provide proof for the following statements:

that I or other members of the Polish cabal (who are we, by the way) have been going over articles and replacing Polish Biographical Dictionary with Polski Słownik Biograficzny on many wikipedia articles. Such a statement, putting in doubt others integrity of editors, and between the lines accusing them of preparing evidence to create a false argument to influence the vote, is a serious accusation and should be referenced, or apologized for if it is found untrue.

that "It has been amply demonstrated by that the English version "Polish Biographical Dictionary" is commonly used in *external sources* to refer to this multivolume dictionary". Francis directs us here to the archieve. I have looked through it again and I can find only two posts by him, none of which presents any claims other then this sentence: "Note that I found external references referring to this multi-volume dictionary by the English name according to the present page name. 'The "English name"". If this is what Francis means by It has been amply demonstrated..." then I wonder if this is supposed to be some kind of a joke?

As for Elonka, I'd like to as her too to back her statement that " The name "Polish Biographical Dictionary" is the most commonly-used English name for this work", keeping in mind that we should weed out search results for The Polish Biographical Dictionary, and as I demonstrated in the begining of the discussion in the archive, PSB has 170 hits on english pages, PSD (including both publications) has just 30 more. In the middle of the 'RfC: Request for Comment' section in archive I have also demonstrated that the Polish term PSB is more popular in books (Google Print) then the English PSD.

If not for the existence of The Polish Biographical Dictionary, I might have agreed with your second argument. However, as the existance of this book means that under current title the books are likely to be confused, a move to the Polish name would lessen the confusion, not increase it.

--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 15:51, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

• On WP:ASR -- Note that self-references are entirely acceptable on talk pages. ~ trialsanderrors 20:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)