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"Stub it and then block the stub. The damage is a continuing damage as new readers come to the site. In fact each day the damage progresses. It's just a matter of time until a national or international media picks up the news. Like they did the Cuba article. I can see the bylline. "NeoKon Likudniks hijack Juan Cole WP article and get it locked against balancing edits. Tar him as anti-semite b/c of his forceful and effective criticism of repressive Israeli occupation of Palestinians and American heavy handed Iraq occupation. They are also concerned about his moderating stance toward the Iran war stampede." Take Care!--Will314159 16:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)"
"Stub it and then block the stub. The damage is a continuing damage as new readers come to the site. In fact each day the damage progresses. It's just a matter of time until a national or international media picks up the news. Like they did the Cuba article. I can see the bylline. "NeoKon Likudniks hijack Juan Cole WP article and get it locked against balancing edits. Tar him as anti-semite b/c of his forceful and effective criticism of repressive Israeli occupation of Palestinians and American heavy handed Iraq occupation. They are also concerned about his moderating stance toward the Iran war stampede." Take Care!--Will314159 16:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)"
The problem is the article is locked in a prejudical mode, no consensus can be achieved, yet the administrator in charge, who won't identify himself, won't stub the protected article and leaves the offending article up. Take Care!--Will314159 18:09, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
The problem is the article is locked in a prejudical mode, no consensus can be achieved, yet the administrator in charge, who won't identify himself, won't stub the protected article and leaves the offending article up. Take Care!--Will314159 18:09, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
It just seems so common sense to 1) take the non-neutral article down, 2) put up a protected stub, and 3) work on a new version at liesure. What am I missing? I am beginning to appreciate articulating in a NPOV point of view. Have to overcome years of legal advocacy habit. Take Care!--Will314159 19:11, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
It just seems so common sense to 1) take the non-neutral article down, 2) put up a protected stub, and 3) work on a new version at liesure. What am I missing? I am beginning to appreciate articulating in a NPOV point of view. Have to overcome years of legal advocacy habit. Take Care!--Will314159 19:11, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
:To answer one or two minor points: 1) Jimbo is, de facto, in charge of the project, and he can impose anything he wants (subject only theoretically to disapproval by the Board), so saying he's "high in the administrator ladder" is correct but something of an understatement; on the other hand 2) he generally isn't acting in the capacity of head honcho unless specifically noted; 3) there's not really a ladder of administrators, but rather Jimbo/Danny/the Board/the Foundation generally at the top, and every other user largely equal (although administrators are given more technical powers, they theoretically aren't given more authority); 4) you can verify at ] that ] was the one who protected the page, in response to a request at ]; and 5) if you want the page unprotected, the place to ask is ], but it's unlikely that it will be unprotected until the argument on the talk page is resolved. Hope that helps. —] (] • ]) 03:56, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
== Are you a "Muslim editor" ? ==
== Are you a "Muslim editor" ? ==
Revision as of 03:56, 24 May 2006
If you are here to report abuse, or to request intervention in a dispute, please first read about resolving disputes, and try adding your request to the administrators' incident noticeboard instead. Your grievance is much more likely to be investigated and acted upon in that forum.
I just tagged 800 untagged images, I sure could use a slice of cake... Congrats on Time 100! --Rory096
Just stopping in for a snack while on RC-patrol. I guess I'll settle for a nibble of ems' slice... --Alan Au06:04, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Foiled by an edit conflict! ...and here I was sure ems had passed on his piece. I'll have to go find some spam to nibble on instead... --Alan Au06:18, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
He'd never run for president. It's clear from Misplaced Pages's first principles that Jim is a bit of an anarchist. If he was president he'd probably open the prisons and declare war on the decadent capitalist West. I like to think so anyway - Fat Alan, 19:07, 12 May (GMT)
There is currently an arbitration case involving geo-politics that may very well be the poster case for some of the few shortcomings, certainly problems in Misplaced Pages. One of the arbitrators involved, User:Jayjg`s neutrality in regards to this specific case has come into question, yet he has gone ahead emanating some tilted proposals (objected to by other arbitrators as “over kill ”) against the same editors whom in the past he had obstreperously disagreed with in POV. Despite the diffs showing otherwise, naturally our dear Jayjg does not agree that he should recuse/distance himself from the case (in legal lingo; contributing to “non-statuary aggravated factors ”), and sees his past relations with those editors as irrelevant, but at this point the blocking of a group of well-intentioned editors unjustly, may be irreparable. Jayjg, unfortunately, has had some complaints against him before accused by others as perhaps passionate in his POV edits to the point that his admin status many times presents a conflict of interest in various cases. The positive productivity of Wiki recently been undermined by some bad press. I think their concern was that they saw a trend developing here: Please look into this, since this seems serious enough to warrant your intervention. ThanksZmmz21:30, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
more problems with the administrator jaygy
just for the record.
this is my first ban ever
and here are the response to the allegations
1) unsourced pov. There has only been one possible unsourced POV (non reliable source), everything else has been sourced. Granted with two references, i used another wiki page, and a home page as a source. I was never warned that these are inadmissible. Is this justification for a permenant ban
2) copyright violations. This turns out to be a false charge. There has only be one citation by jaygy for copyright violations and this turns out to fufil every criteria listed on wikipedia for fair use.
3)attacks on the talk pages. There has only been only one possible example of personal attacks. This was when i stated that jayg was following me around and this is what you expect from a zionist. Hardly ranks in the hall of fame of personal attacks, and one has to question if this remotely comes near justification for an indefinate ban, or ban at all.
4) sock puppet. As i explained earlier, shared computer , same ip, same session on the internet explorer. But that aside there was only one single instance of this alledgedly being used to violate wikipedia rules. Where on one occasion . Note one occasion only in the entire history of my wikipedia usage a page was reverted more than 3 times.
given any fair, and clear policy by wikipedia, an inpartial adminstrator would question a ban at all, let alone an indefinate ban.
Also I would like to question the predjudice of many of the administrators who have commented on this case (see the wiki email section). I post under the name of saladin. My email is abuhamza1970@hotmail.com. During the last 5 days I have been accused of being an al qaida sympathiser, of not sharing the views of civilised society, sympathise with 911, and am a general threat to wikipedia, all because my email is abu hamza, and i have made contributions to the 'zionist' page and reverted changes to the harold shipman page, amongst many other contributions. All of which fall within the remit of wikipedia rules and NPOV (see major, minor view, proportinality etc).
My experience over the last 3 days has been a real eye opener, and i have been exposed to the most horrendous predjudice, accusations ranging from al qaida operative to 911 sympathiser to anti semetic, etc, etc. And these are from the administrators (slim virgin jaygy, philip welch). This hardly gives me or my community a fuzzy warm feeling that Misplaced Pages is an open community based project that seeks to include others outside of the anglo american community. If my experience is anything to go by, then it does not bode well for my community or other non anglo american, judaic communities.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.129.121.62 (talk • contribs) 11:55, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I just wanted to drop a note and thank you for your quick response via email. If you feel it is appropriate, then I would say that`s pretty much good enough for us. ThanksZmmz00:16, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Is there any sort of list of your usernames at other wikis?
Mr. Wales, first off you're a genius. Second, I was wondering if we could start a Cut Spelling Misplaced Pages. Can we please?Cameron Nedland00:39, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
For those who are wondering: cut spelling. If this gets approved, of course (good luck), it would probably just be a simple algorithmic conversion of Misplaced Pages—there's no reason to have a separate Misplaced Pages. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 02:08, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I know it seems stupid but pages wouldn't fill up so quickly and such. I don't know, maybe I'm just stupid like that.Cameron Nedland21:38, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
You're certainly free to create it on your own; you already have permission to use all Misplaced Pages text under the GFDL; be sure to follow the terms, though. If you want Wikimedia to run it, things are a bit more difficult. New Wikipedias (on Wikimedia servers) are proposed at Meta:Requests for new languages. Best of luck. Superm401 - Talk03:30, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Question about french wikinews
Dear Wimbo, I ask you because of, we are making a vote about the french name of wikinews. You know that the others information web-site of wikimedia association having their name in proper language (Wikinoticias, wikinews,...) so some persons in french wikinews have propose to vote for an over name of the project, a name in french language. My question is if in your opinion, we are in our right? One user (Divol) say that "wikinews" is a copyrighted mark and we can't change it. The web-adress is posession of wikimedia foundation so we can not also change it. Even if the vote is oppose to change, what can you say us about it? And if the people vote for change, what can we do? thank you--Jonathaneo08:50, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Different projects often have localized names (although the domain name will always remain in English: fr.wikinews.org, never wikinouvelles.org or whatever). See, for instance, Wikilivres, or Wikiźródła. Thus, I assume there's no problem with it, although Divol's thought about trademarks is reasonable. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 02:18, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Here you said: "The problem we are seeing, again and again, is this attitude that some poor victim of a biased rant in Misplaced Pages ought to not get pissed and take us up on our offer of 'anyone can edit' but should rather immerse themselves in our arcane internal culture until they understand the right way to get things done. I do not know what is going to change, but something BIG has got to happen and SOON about this issue, because the amount of time it is consuming for some of our best editors is getting way out of control." This is part of the larger problem of too much freedom of anyone to edit at any time has caused adminship to be a time-waster that encourages edit-warrier attitutes and knee jerk banning and reverts. I highly recommend changing the at any time part. Why does that have to be 24-7 for everyone? Liberal use of protection would also help. Why on Earth waste admin's time with babysitting sensitive articles when they can be protected from anyone who hasn't had a username for less than a week? Your time is too valuable to waste like that. My time is too valuable to waste like that. Respect for the time of the volunteers is important too. Who wouldn't get a little edgy battling vandalism hour after hour? The cost in causing warrier attitudes is all by itself enough reason for more liberal use of page protection. While someone waits a week to be able to edit a biography, they can edit something else less sensitive. Yes, anyone can edit. But why sensitive articles 24-7? WAS 4.25017:18, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Um, I think you're saying the exact opposite of what Jimbo said. He was reinforcing the idea of "anyone can edit" by saying that newbies should be able to edit without having to first figure out what the ground rules are supposed to be. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 02:20, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
It looked like he was talking about people editing their own articles, not merely bad editing. I think in the future advanced AIs can fix things like this--already there is the Tawkerbot. For people editing their own articles, this is one person. Daniel Brant (however it's spelled) didn't like his own article and disputed it a lot and was eventually banned. The real problem is it a topic of interest to a group, and people of that group are 99% of the ones who edit the article. So the people who edit such articles put all sorts of misinformation and spin in to make the group look better than it actually is. If the group is considered wierd, they make it look normal. If the group is considered racist or illegal, they make it sound harmless--I've read talk pages of articles about many racist groups and pro-pedophilia groups and there's all this complaining that racists/pedos edit the article to their agenda. And articles about things that belong to say a geek fandom that is non-controversial, likely are filled with spin because nobody challenges them. DyslexicEditor05:14, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm someone who was incorrectly labeled a sock puppet, so I see things from a different point of view. I can empathize with the amount of time that administrators put into reverting vandalism, but it seems that you bring most of it on yourself. After being banned, unbanned and banned again (judged only by one mistaken person) after doing nothing but undeniably making articles better, and after going through all of the "proper channels" and having no action taken, I'm so frustrated that an "improper channel" is starting to look quite attractive. Why do I feel like I'm being forced outside the clique when I have so much to offer that could benefit this encyclopedia? David (Pole star) 16:20, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
All you have to do, Pole star, is sign up for a new account and start making decent contributions in a way that doesn't make admins think you're out to cause trouble. That shouldn't be so hard. SlimVirgin17:14, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
All you have to do, Pole star, is sign up for a new account and start making contributions that coincide with SlimVirgin's agenda, and you won't get indefinitely banned as yet another editor who meets with SlimVirgin's disapproval, and is ipso facto a sockpuppet of someone bad, and therefore deserving of swift justice from SlimVirgin. --Daniel Brandt 68.91.252.1617:41, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that's exactly what Jimbo was talking about in the quote at the beginning of this section. I was here for only one week when I was banned. I was banned by judgement of one person because I didn't know about Zephram Stark. I didn't know that we aren't supposed to make an article better when Zephram Stark (or someone suspected of being Zephram Stark) first made the change. Even if I had read your mountain of policies, that bit of information isn't in there. Now SlimVirgin suggests that I create an alternate account to circumvent my ban. Is this an admission that there is no way for a productive editor such as myself to work within existing policy? All I want to do is try to make articles better. I don't care about Zephram Stark or what SlimVirgin thinks he did. If an article is better, it should remain that way and the person who made it better should not be banned or called a sock puppet for doing it. All of this should be legal and I shouldn't be expected to break a policy by secretly creating a second account under false pretenses. David (Pole star) 17:50, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
"Statement placed here by Jimbo Wales at 18:01 UTC, 20 February. Do not remove or modify wording without good reason
It should be noted that use of such userboxes is strongly discouraged at Misplaced Pages, and it is likely that very soon all these userboxes will be deleted or moved to userspace. Their use and creation is not recommended at this time."
Do you have something against people expressing their beliefs?
Dudtz 5/5/06 4:57 PM EST
Yes, of course. I am deeply opposed to free speech. Now, given that this is obviously silly, why did you even ask me the question? The userbox problem is not about expression of belief, but about factionalism and general stupidity.--Jimbo Wales21:09, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
This is what I don't understand. Since when was expressing oneself as an atheist, or Christian, as pro-life or as s kung-fu expert factionalism? Misplaced Pages is a community, yes, but members of a community must express thier individuality. That in itself is not factionalism, but simply free expression- the same free expression Wikiepdia is supposed to be based on.
The userbox problem doesn't exist, therefore, because there is no problem. Look, I'm sorry if I look like I'm ranting or if this seems like a personal attack (it's not). But I feel that creating templates for users is fine, so long is there is a balance: if a pro-life userbox exists, than a pro-choice one should as well. As long as these are only used on User pages, what's the big deal? The User page doesn't have to be NPOV, according to Mackensen, so keeping these templates as a basis for userpages only makes sense- Wikiepdia has a page on the abortion debate, for example, why can't it have the userpages for the sides of that debate? And why is Wikiepdia supressing the free expression it's supposed to be based on? TrueSora19:58, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok,so you are opposed to factions,you probably have your reasons,but how is it stupidity.
Some of the belief userboxes probably are silly,but you should not remove the whole lot.
Dudtz 5/5/06 5:17 PM EST
Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy.
Bureaucrats
Users with "bureaucrat" status can turn other users into sysops (but not remove sysop status), change usernames, and flag and unflag bots accounts. Bureaucrats are created by other bureaucrats on projects where these exist, or by stewards on those who don't yet have one. Sysoppings are recorded in Special:Log/rights or Misplaced Pages:Bureaucrat log for activity prior to December 24, 2004. Sysoppings by stewards are recorded at Meta:Special:Log/rights but the few stewards who actively sysop users on the English Misplaced Pages do so using their local bureaucrat status, making this distinction rather academic.
Why is there a position called "bureaucrat"?
Dudtz 5/5/06 5:31 PM EST
Misplaced Pages isn't a bureaucracy, but if some users want to call themselves bureaucrats anyway, what's the harm? Jimpartame01:00, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
For the same reason that the second-highest level of privileges is called "steward". Those that Misplaced Pages gives more power to are supposed to have no more authority, and they are therefore generally not given names that would imply superiority. (Admins are, of course, the glaring exception.) A "bureaucrat" is someone who enforces laws and policies, not someone who makes them, so it's more appropriate than most alternatives. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 05:25, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I must disagree with you here - the term "admin" refers to an administrator, which in a office or university is considered to be the lowest rank of work as they spend all their time with paperwork. THe term has acquired a different meaning on the Internet, but in essence it is still the same. Having SysOp over SysAdmin is an excellent idea. --Xyrael10:33, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Not just on the Internet, but with respect to technology in general. An administrator of a computer generally has full access to the computer, among the highest permission ranks if not actually the highest. An administrator of a website (which Misplaced Pages is) is typically someone with the ability to directly edit site files to some degree. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 22:03, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
A bureaucrat is a person of bureaucracy.Dudtz 5/7/06 9:49 PM EST
Mostly, the term bureaucrat devolved to find a term which would imply serving and following the will of the community. Bureaucrat is a rather odious name, but it implies exactly that. The reason for bureaucrats' existence is that different projects can, and do, hold different criteria for granting permission levels; stewards cannot possibly know every single procedure in every single Wikimedia wiki out there. Titoxd01:54, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Does that mean that Misplaced Pages is a bureaucracy now? Or is it just a non-bureaucracy with some members who like to act like bureaucrats? (Not that there's anything wrong with that :-) Jimpartame01:58, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
It is a state of anarchy with a bunch of self-appointed burueaucrats running around trying to clean up the whole sorry mess. However, it is also probably the best website in the world and, personally, I wouldn't have it any other way. And neither would Jim. - Fat Alan 19:15, 12 May 2006 (GMT)
Jayjg is becoming a problem
Misplaced Pages has a member of the arbitration committee who is falsifying CheckUser reports. Jayjg is very passionate about his work, but this isn't the first time that his passions have needed to be reigned in for the good of the project. I feel strongly that Misplaced Pages must let him continue contributing only as an editor. Here is proof that he has lied about CheckUser results.
Jayjg claims that I am Zephram Stark based on CheckUser results and other unspecified factors . As you can see here , my IP number is 4.231.20.95 or similar. My home service is through Level 3 Communications Inc. and I live in San Antonio (something you can verify through ip-to-location.com).
Jayjg also claims to have CheckUser verified that Pole star is Zephram Stark . As you can see here , Pole star's IP number is 67.150.222.251. According to ip-to-location.com, that IP number is registered to PAC-West out of Seattle, Washington.
Jayjg also claims that SR Bryant is the infamous "banned user" Zephram Stark . As you can see here , SR Bryant's IP number is 4.249.57.71, placing him in the vicinity of Reston, Virginia.
I don't know what criteria Jayjg is using for his accusations, but it isn't a CheckUser. He is lying about that. --Kaspersky Trust03:43, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
This planet will know peace when all of its children have a homeland. Jayjg should not be expected to apologize for seeking this peace. --Dotan15:33, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
User:Dotan is him too. Zeph, what you have to understand is that long before anyone had check-user access, we had to work out who the sockpuppets were based on posts alone. That experience has produced exceptionally well-honed linguistic analytic skills. I'd give it up if I were you. :-D SlimVirgin03:55, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
WOW, can you teach me your advanced linguistic analytic skills so I can be super smart just like you? Jorgegorom21:07, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
On your kind invitation to edit your page, I moved the poems to a sub-page
because I felt that many of them were not exactly showcase material (if anyone who wrote them is reading this, I trust they won't take it personally). Someone has partially reverted me , leaving an situation where they now exist both on the main page and on the sub-page. Given the difference of opinion, I think it's best to refer it back to you and ask you to either complete the revert or undo it as you prefer. Thanks. Arbitrary username20:17, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I wrote a couple of the poems dedicated to Jimbo Wales. Which ones do you think are "not exactly showcase material"? Don't worry, I don't take it personally, I just want to know what you dislike about the poems. Jimpartame21:17, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but I don't think it's helpful for me to discuss them individually. Rather, I just wanted to flag that there is difference of opinion about them collectively, and so it's best for Jimbo to decide. Arbitrary username21:37, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
If you're saying there's difference of opinion, it's important to find out what your opinion is. I wrote "Cyberspace sometimes is scary," "Jimbo Wales is really couth," and "All over the world, people cheer." I really don't mind if you don't like something about those poems, because getting feedback is useful for me. I'd like to know why you don't like my poems so that I can do better in the future. Jimpartame03:01, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
You're teasing out of me a little more than I intended to say, so please nobody be offended. Okay, here goes. The difference of opinion is not particularly regarding the truth or falsehood of the actual statements made in the poems (such as those you've quoted), but whether or not they are a good addition to this page. I personally think that they are of poor literary merit (but that's basically an esthetic thing so there's no point asking me to analyze it further). Maybe more importantly, I think that they are sycophantic in tone, which makes it look like Misplaced Pages is a kind of Jimbo-personality-cult, which I don't think is helpful. I could speculate whether Jimbo feels the same way about them as he did about moving the barnstars to a sub-page, but I thought it better just to ask him. Arbitrary username15:38, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Which ones seem sycophantic? They look pretty NPOV to me, but feel free to write your own if you want to represent more sides of the issue. Jimpartame23:24, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
About the origins of the catalan wikipedia
Hi and sorry for my English. I'm a member of the Catalan Misplaced Pages and I wanted to improve our article of our own wikipedia but, looking for information, I realized that it was the second wikipedia to be created. There's a contradiction because our administrators say that the French Misplaced Pages was created before, but some users of English Misplaced Pages told me that the Catalan Misplaced Pages was created on 1. March 2001 and the French Misplaced Pages on 15. March 2001. Moreover, I'd like to know why did you choose the catalan wikipedia to be the second (or third) wikipedia to be created because I think that it reveals the politics (all the knowledge in every language) of he wikipedia, but I'm not sure, because I've also heard that the creation of the catalan wiki has something to do with the avaiable space in the servers. These suspicious contradictions make me ask to the founders, that's to say, you, when was created the catalan wikipedia, why did you choose this language to be the second wikipedia and what did you want demonstrate with its creation. I know that my petition isn't easy to understand, so if you have any question, ask me. Gangleri2001 (Talk to me)
Misplaced Pages's Integrity: Does Anybody Care?
Jimbo,
Over the last few months I have worked hard to raise a red flag about extremist groups using Misplaced Pages for propaganda purposes. I have now brought the issue to the attention of those at the very highest levels within the Misplaced Pages community.
Now that I have gone through all of Misplaced Pages's bureaucratic hoops, what steps are being taken to correct the problem? How are policies being changed to prevent advocacy groups from using Misplaced Pages to disseminate propaganda?
There is widespread agreement that "Societal attitudes towards homosexuality" is not an impartial article written by impartial people, but nobody cares enough to fix the problem. Is leaving the same group of editors in charge of the same article supposed to produce different results somehow? How long will it be before the article claims a correlation between natural disasters and Protestantism again? Now that this has been brought to the attention of the powers that be, what mechanism has been put into place to prevent that from happening again?
Can it be that nobody in the Misplaced Pages community, yourself included, cares about the integrity of Misplaced Pages? I have suggested several approaches to help prevent this kind of misuse of Misplaced Pages in the future. Is Misplaced Pages going to adopt these approaches, or will you continue to ignore the problem and discipline whistleblowers instead?
We all know that ArbCom knows how to give users the boot - they do it all the time - but who is going to actually fix the problem?
Jimbo's job is to create an environment of transparency and communication. He has done his job very well. According to the teachings of Ayn Rand, this should enable the rest of us to cause conflict with society and persevere to achieve our goals. Those who persevere without physically imposing their ideas on others will eventually find consensus. To the extent that the environment maximizes the effectiveness of objectivism while minimizing the effectiveness of physical force, it promotes useful growth. Jimbo has succeeded in creating a Randian environment that far surpasses anything this world has ever known, and we have the useful growth of Misplaced Pages to show for it. The Wiki engine has taken us as far as it is going to. Further growth at Misplaced Pages is up to us. It depends entirely on whether or not we buy into the hierarchical system that so many administrators are trying to push. By coming here and petitioning Jimbo to fix your problems, you are giving him and the rest of the hierarchical system the power to do so as they see fit. Such hierarchical power cannot create a consensual resource. The goals you seek of integrity and impartiality can be won only through individual pursuit of rational self-interest.
If you believe that a dictate from above can create impartiality, it won't matter how great of an environment Jimbo creates for us. --Team Shocker19:05, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
"Individual pursuit of rational self-interest" has created this article: . This article is controlled by a group of gay advocates who claimed in the article that "damage from natural disasters correlates with Protestantism". This is a group of editors who compared ingesting semen to taking vitamins... in the introduction!
Claims are added to the article, not for the benefit of the reader, but for the purpose of "convincing the people in the center to change their opinion" and "changing voters' minds". (Those quotes come directly from the talk page where strategy is devised to craft the article "from the gay rights advocacy point of view" - another direct quote).
This environment has not "maximized the effectiveness of objectivism". It has allowed a group of a dozen gay advocates to use a supposedly neutral encyclopedia to promote their agenda.
I am not saying that Jimbo has not "done his job very well". I am saying that the system is badly broken and needs to be fixed. And yes, that will require "a dictate from above".
There is currently no mechanism to prevent a group of extremists from controlling an article and using it to push propaganda. Until there is such a mechanism, we don't have a neutral and high-quality encyclopedia; We have this:
Mr. Franklin, you're impassioned plea for top-down control is eloquent, but it won't do you any good in a Randian environment. Here, you must be your own hero. Here, each person's happiness is their only moral purpose, and productive achievement is their most noble activity. If Mr. Wales were to use physical force to, as you put it, "correct the problem," Misplaced Pages would stop being a Randian environment. If Misplaced Pages were to stop being a Randian environment, it is very likely that you would not be here. Even if you were here, content approval would filter down from the top, making you nothing but a slave: a worker with no control or compensation. Perhaps you feel that way now, but the solution lies in the path opposite from the one you espouse. Requesting mandates of force from above will make articles more out of your control, not less.
When you say "that the system is badly broken and needs to be fixed," the keepers of the system can only look at that from a general Randian perspective. No software will be written, nor will any dictatorial measures be levied, to address your specific concern of homosexual "propaganda." The only positive action that can be taken in a fundamentally Randian environment is to make the system more conducive to objectivist philosophy, thereby better enabling the heroism of all individuals. To that end, we welcome any specific ideas for how to improve the Wiki engine. --Team Shocker16:24, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
In a true Randian system, people would trade shares of sysop time on an open market, and the invisible hand would ensure that those people best able would have the authority when it was needed. This system has a beauracracy (the sysops and ARBCOM) who are, in effect, like the looters who ruined Taggert Transcontinental. WP:NOT your Randian dreamtopia. Yesterdog23:05, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
The SysOps and ArbCom are not meant to be part of a Randian dreamtopia. They are necessary constructs to make up for real limitations in the system. The Wiki engine is a monumental first step toward a stable objectivist society. It is proof of concept beyond anyone's expectations, but it is a relatively simple database design that has its limits. The engine doesn't input everyone's POV and output consensus, but it comes closer to that aim than anything else in human history. We have this amazing resource of Misplaced Pages as a result. The next step is to make a better engine. As server space becomes less expensive and processing speeds improve, a more robust database design will bring us closer to a true Randian environment. --Team Shocker02:26, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that if we take Rand seriously, as you seem to want to do, creating a good Misplaced Pages would clearly be supporting the looters instead of realizing oneself as a rational individual. Trolls, obviously are like Francisco D'Anconia, helping to defeat the looters from within. True Randians would start their own internet. And a separate wikipedia with a password like, "A is A, and I will never do work at my own expense to benefit others, I work only to promote my own ends as a rational being". Right? Yesterdog02:40, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
If anyone needs me, I'll be hiding in the mountains until all Wikipedians are fairly compensated for their work and the unjust centralized control of Misplaced Pages is ended.-Polotet03:05, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
That's were the rational egoism of objectivist philosophy differs from the selfishness of corporate capitalism. A corporation would never contribute to Misplaced Pages unless it could see some way of making a profit in it, but over a million articles have been created, edited and re-edited by people for purely altruistic reasons. The only explanation is that people enjoy being altruistic. It is part of human nature to seek a larger purpose, to benefit society and to have our opinion count for something. When Rand says that man is a heroic being with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, she does not discount the happiness that man gets from being a vital part of humanity. --Team Shocker23:59, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Conceding straightaway that this likely isn't the place at which we should engage in this discussion, I'd note that one may edit here self-interestedly, I think, and nevertheless contribute in a salutary fashion. Much of my editing, for example, is driven by the idea that, where I improve an article that another prospective user finds interesting, he/she may join the project and contribute to an article that I might find interesting. Surely one may also edit in order that he/she should be intellectually or socially engaged. As I've said, inter al., at WP:NOT EVIL, I disclaim any altruistic impulse in my editing Misplaced Pages; I edit solely for academic stimulation and encyclopedic perpetutation (I do derive pleasure, for whatever reason, from reading and learning information to which one would otherwise ascribe the appellative trivia, and I believe that as I edit, I encourage others to edit, such that the encyclopedia benefits me; that which benefits me also benefits the encyclopedia). Joe23:01, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
This is an argument over a false dichotomy. Selfishness and altruism are subjective judgement calls over the very same act.
For example, is a soldier defending his nation in a war committing a selfish or altruistic act?
It depends on your subjective perspective. It's a personal judgemental call.
If you are the enemy then it is a selfish act of self-preservation by your enemy. If you are a member of that soldier's nation then you may consider it an altruistic act because they are defending you. If you're the soldier then you may consider it selfish - you joined the army not specifically for your nation but for your own personal gain in wage and skills - or you may consider it altruistic - you signed up for patriotic reasons for the defence of every citizen of that nation.
The soldier may be defending the nation (altruistic) with a view to realising that this will implicitly defend their own family (altruistic: They are separate individuals, selfish: They carry your genes) or they may have joined up to learn new skills (selfish) to gain employment (selfish: increase personal materialism, altruistic: improve the economy and living standards of the nation).
Objectively, there are no such entities as "selfish" and "altruistic".
These are subjective frames of reference through which individuals make personal judgements and are the "lens" through which objective events are subjectively viewed.
They are merely two sides of the same coin. Objectively, the coin is both "heads" and "tails". Subjectively, you call "heads" or "tails" according to which side of the coin is visible to you at that time (as geometrically, the shape of the coin makes these options mutually exclusive to a single subjective viewpoint).
You are, to be sure, correct; I was simply using the terms as ostensibly defined and perceived by others involved in the discussion. Joe04:37, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Is Misplaced Pages's objective to be an "encyclopedia of the highest possible quality" or is Misplaced Pages's objective to be "Randian"?
When the reader goes to an encyclopedia for objective information and instead gets propaganda, does he care that the encyclopedia was Randian? (Speaking of propaganda, did you know that "in most developed countries, same-sex relationships are accepted as normal and natural" ?)
What good is being "Randian" if your encyclopedia is biased and wrong?
Misplaced Pages as it exists today has policies, committees, and a structure. But it doesn't have policies that work to prevent groups that push their agenda here. So why not fix those policies?
I'm glad that you "welcome any specific ideas". There are many ways to fix this. Here are a couple:
The article I have been involved with should have been removed months ago. A group of radical homosexuals organized and would revert my corrections. Since there were more of them than me, I was not able to correct the article. They would game the system to get me booted for 3rr when I tried to make changes. They would take turns removing my corrections so they wouldn't get blocked for 3rr (since no one editor reverted my changes more than 3 times). But since I did make the changes more than 3 times I would get the boot.
Since I could not correct the article, I nominated it for deletion. But guess what? The same group of organized gays (and their friends) was allowed to vote on the RfD! Obviously they weren't going to vote to remove their own propaganda, so the RfD never had a chance.
It is a very bad idea to have the same group of people who created a biased article decide whether it should be deleted or not. One way to solve this problem is to task ArbCom with the removal of biased articles. Under the current model, ArbCom will not get involved in the deletion of articles because they don't feel that it is their function. That should be changed.
Another way to solve this problem is to form a "POV Removal committee". This new committee could be formed to identify articles that have a long history of being abused by groups of zealots. These articles could be removed, at least temporarily. Misplaced Pages users could petition this committee to make a determination about what they believe to be biased articles. Members could be appointed to the committee based on how moderate they are. Extremists of all types would be excluded from the committee, or would at least be balanced (one lefty for every righty).
This problem is real. When readers see articles that are crap they are less likely to return. We should at least endeavor to fix the problem.
Lou, you're discounting the power of individual action. Don't ask people to form a committee. Become the committee. Misplaced Pages as a society should never force editors to achieve its goals. Instead, you should act to carry out your goals yourself. I think that if you started a POV Removal Committee, you'd be able to convince others to join. The goal of productive editing of articles is highly valued here. Jimpartame02:51, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd join. Maintaining NPOV is easy. Most all of it is just citing your sources within the article. X says this and Y says that. The narrative voice of the article doesn't assert anything controversial. The reader can choose to believe X, Y or neither. The article doesn't make that choice.
Lou, whether or not you agree with objectivist philosophy, it is the core concept of an encyclopedia that "anyone can edit." Placing another layer of control over the failed last one won't solve your problems. That can only serve to give minority opinion more weight. Your search for the perfectly balanced committee will never be realized because balance is a matter of perspective. Everyone will try to pull the balance to where they think the middle lies, until someone succeeds. At that point, the committee will stop working for anyone else and the system will need yet another layer. I don't envy your quest for a stable hierarchical system because nobody in the history of the world has ever found one. With today's technology, we finally have an alternative and proof of concept, right here at Misplaced Pages, that objectivist philosophy works. Now that we've outgrown the simple engine that got us started, we can try to go back to the old ways or we can move ahead. I'm going to move ahead, and I hope you'll join me. --Team Shocker03:12, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I really don't see how Misplaced Pages is fundamentally objectivist. I'd say it's much more communist, or at least communalist, and that it really stands in opposition to some core tenets of objectivism. I guess you could argue NPOV policy has an objectivist nature, but beyond that I don't see the underpinnings of Misplaced Pages as in any way consistant with objectivist philosophy.-Polotet03:36, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
You see "anyone can edit" as communalist or Communist? Both of those societies rely on the standardized altruism of their participants. Anyone who deviates from that standard must be excluded in order for the system to work. As long as Misplaced Pages is a resource that "anyone can edit," it promotes the concept of man as a heroic being. Individual vandals don't get very far here because they are trying to punish others, and Misplaced Pages is not conducive to punishment. Those who relentlessly pursue their perception of productive achievement, however, are unstoppable in this environment, even by Jimbo Wales: . --Team Shocker15:15, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Why do people make quality edits except out of an altruistic desire to increase the quality of a 💕? I don't know about you, but I'm not getting paid for my edits, and no matter how famous and well known Misplaced Pages to become I know I'll never attain fame for it. I don't know about everyone else, but my editing is driven by altruism, and I can't see any other good reason to edit. People who deviate from an altruistic standard are punished--that's what vandals do. And I'm not sure what your point is about Zephram Stark--he's just an individual vandal who is persistent enough to keep on coming back.-Polotet20:54, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
That's an interesting point of view, especially considering that Stark has never committed any vandalism. --Team Shocker23:59, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
People make edits out of altruism or as punishment depending on which they think will be more effective. Altruism is useful and effective in an enabling environment. Punishment, on the other hand, is an attempt to limit creative reasoning. Even if it were effective, the results would not be useful. The Wiki engine succeeds in making this great resource to the extent that it enables altruism, but it fails where it enables systems of punishment, exclusion and limits to creative reasoning. On my talk page, I have started an outline for a new engine designed to address the larger concerns of users like Lou by promoting altruism without the systems of punishment that are holding his article hostage. --Team Shocker22:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Dude, can you get your head out of the clouds for a second? This article uses the word "cocksucker" and has a picture of a dick. The article is run by an organized group of homos who don't give a damn that you are "moving ahead". They don't care what Misplaced Pages's policy about obscenity is, and they don't care that unsuspecting children are reading the word "cocksucker". They have consensus and they'll do what they damn well please.
Their objective is to make the article unbalanced and pro-gay. "Anyone can edit" doesn't apply here. They take turns reverting any changes that aren't pro-gay, assuring that their propaganda cannot be removed and anybody who dares to express an opposing thought is booted for 3rr.
The reference to the word "cocksucker" is from a direct quotation by McCarthy. In context, McCarthy is using the word insultingly from an anti-gay position.
I've read the article and I see no NPOV violations at all. I think you're seeing what you want to see - from a personal viewpoint - rather than what is actually there. PetrochemicalPete04:12, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
You "see no NPOV violations at all"? They listed "conservatism" under the category of "anti-homosexual attitudes"!
The authors say that conservatives are "threatened" by "the efforts of homosexuals to achieve equal rights", but of course homosexuals have all the same rights that every other citizen has.
The article doesn't mention the homosexual agenda, but instead talks about the "assumed homosexual agenda". As if those who are aware of the homosexual agenda are seeing a mirage.
Here is my favorite sentence "Those who regard homosexuality as a sin or perversion can believe that acceptance of homosexual parents and homosexual marriage will "redefine" (and presumably diminish) the institutions of family and marriage." No matter how you slice it, homosexual marriage does redefine marriage! To characterize people who don't support gay marriage as "those who regard homosexuality as a sin or perversion" is a bit one-sided, wouldn't you say?
Read the caption:
Here's Misplaced Pages's policy that says "images that you are aware might be considered offensive, profane, or obscene by other Misplaced Pages readers should be used if and only if their omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternatives are available.
Here's where they say that "between two images of equal value, one showing nudity and the other not, the picture showing nudity should be favored"
It's all spelled out in the policy, but they have established "consensus" so they play by the rules that their "consensus" agrees to. There is no way to stop them. That isn't how "a 💕 that anyone can edit" is supposed to work. Lou franklin02:26, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Lou, my point is that I don't see a penis in that picture. You're complaining about something that just isn't there. Have you seen the Penis article? When you complain that Societal attitudes towards homosexuality "has a picture of a dick," it makes it sound like they're adding one of those pictures, not some Greek art which is not a picture of a dick. Jimpartame03:03, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
It's possibly that some prankster rigged the image to appear differently when viewed from your IP. When I look at it, I see an image of some red-figure pottery, depicting two Greek men sitting down. One of them is bandaging the other. He is bandaging his arm, not his penis. The guy on the right has a funny looking hat, but it is a hat, not a penis. Jimpartame04:09, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Optometrist to the rescue! See detail . Uncircumcised. Any questions?
Lou, when you say that the model isn't working, you have to remember that the model brought us this far. Our current engine is Randian with dictatorial stopgaps to overcome its simplicity. Given that we have outgrown it, do we pursue a more robust engine or do we give up and become a dictatorship? There are arguments for both. Encyclopedia Britannica is closer to the dictatorial model. It is a wonderful resource, but I think we have something much better, especially given that we have surpassed Britannica in many ways in only a few short years. Asking people on top to micromanage your concerns by petitioning Jimbo to take direct action or form a committee puts us in the dictatorial category, where the most we can aspire is to be like Britannica. Taking the responsibility for our own productive achievement, however, will enable this project to be so much more.
I understand that you want direct action for your specific problem and not a general fix for the underlying issue, but fixing the underlying issue is all that anyone cares about on this discussion page. Have you tried an RfC?--Team Shocker15:15, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I wouldn't have a prayer. That is for "where participants cannot reach consensus". But they have consensus.
I have tried every other mechanism known to Misplaced Pages: mediation, arbitration, request for deletion, etc. Misplaced Pages currently does not have a remedy that fixes this. It needs one badly. Lou franklin02:26, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm writing a new engine here that should take care of the problem for you, but it won't be ready for months. In the mean time, I think you might be pleasantly surprised by an RfC. It will bring more people into the discussion which will have an effect on consensus. --Team Shocker03:46, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't believe that an RfC will work, but it is important that I try all mechanisms within Misplaced Pages first. They have blocked me from the user page. How do I file an RfC without access to the user page? Lou franklin03:29, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
How do you want people to create policy? There's either discussion and building consensus on the talk page, or bold editing of the page until a version everyone agrees on is arrived at. -- SCZenz17:53, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
It sounds as though you already had an answer in mind when you asked the question. If you're just looking for someone to validate your predetermined conclusion, we'd better take a close look at its assumptions. WP:POL refers to WP:HCP on the matter of creating policy by consensus. WP:HCP is a guideline, not a policy. A guideline illustrates standards of conduct that many editors agree with in principle. Although it may be advisable to follow it, it is not policy.
A question follows, "Why create a guideline if we can't enforce it?" A guideline is information that experienced editors give to help others become most effective at Misplaced Pages. It is a gift of knowledge, not a rod for obedience. Many of our current policies would better fit into the "gift" category as well. For instance, Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks says, "Comment on content, not on the contributor." This is some very good advice for new users and seasoned editors alike. --Team Shocker19:37, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Questioning things requires doubt. A rational person cannot doubt. Therefore, the objectivist response is to ignore policy. Using personal attacks is merely another form of currency; brought about by Virtues of man. Yesterdog05:00, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
It appears that there is some currency after all. However, I don't think objectivist response is as simple as ignoring policy because I believe that a rational person can choose not to doubt all things. People follow policy to which they consent. That consent can be based on agreement with the policy or simply a belief that a less than optimal policy is better than no policy. Within a government system, rational consent might be given for the entire system of policies even if one of the rules is considered incorrect or even damaging.
In the case of Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks, consent is hard to give and the policy rarely followed because the threshold is so poorly defined. If we are never to talk about anything but content, wouldn't the basis of this discussion be considered a personal attack? Wouldn't my asking the previous question be considered another personal attack? In fact, wouldn't anyone pointing out that someone else had engaged in a personal attack itself be a personal attack? --Team Shocker15:15, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
"A rational person cannot doubt"?
The roots of the modern scientific philosophical method owes a direct and acknowledged debt to the Descartesean concept of "ultimate doubt" (commonly concisely exemplified by Descartes' famous "Cogito Ergo Sum" - "I think, therefore I am" - conclusion, as the sole item of knowledge which defies doubt. Though, subsequent philosophers have even challenged that even this fails the Aristotlean test of supreme skepticism).
On the contrary, the ideal rational person cannot believe and they cannot know. They can only doubt.
As the ideal is unobtainable - a person is by nature and indirect experience, forever subjective - this doubt is eternally incapable of reaching "closure".
This is why science never stops. This is why no Wikipedian edit is ever final.
The quest for truth through rationality and objectivism is an eternal voyage.
Even if you were to reach your destination, you must forever doubt the fact that you've arrived and remain eternally open-minded to the possibility that everything you know is wrong.
Sexually explicit remarks towards me on Dutch Misplaced Pages
Dear mister Wales,
Very recently two users used very sexually explicit remarks towards me concerning my transsexual past. Also two users are explicitly mobbing me and want me to leave the project completely. Only the first accusation was answered with a two-hour block, the following three were not followed by a block at all - not even by a warning.
I wonder where this stops: death threats, rape threats?
Sunday 21st of May there'll be a Dutch Misplaced Pages meeting, and I promised to be there. I wonder if I'll be safe there, or just if I'll be treated with respect and honour.
Could you please take any action in these matters, as Dutch moderators seem to lack the initiative to do so? Verrekijker20:28, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Jimbo doesn't know Dutch, you realize. How is he supposed to read all the discussion that doubtless occurred, especially since you didn't give links? Furthermore, he's exceptionally busy. Stewards who can understand Dutch include m:User:Oscar and m:User:Walter; while I'm pretty sure they can't unilaterally interfere with the local operations of a Misplaced Pages, they would at least be able to bring the matter up with Jimbo as known reliable sources if they felt there was a real problem. (They are, as it happens, also bureaucrats and admins on the Dutch Misplaced Pages.) —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 22:09, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Grammy's law: If a user posts on User talk:Jimbo Wales about a dispute, that is a strong indication that the user in question is a) inexperienced or b) wrong.'65.74.249.9022:19, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Wiki used as a source for SVT...
I don't know if you collect material of all significant press articles that mention Wiki, or other kind of press material, but the Swedish Public Service television wrote an article published on the net and on teletext tv, that used Misplaced Pages as a source. The article talks about one of the last surviver from the Titanic. The article ends with the paragraph:
Enligt nätencyklopedin Misplaced Pages finns två kända överlevande från Titanic kvar i livet. De är 94 och 95 år gamla och bor i England.
Translated: According to internet encyclopedia, Misplaced Pages, there are two known survivors from Titanic still alive. They are 94 and 95 years old and live in England.
I think this is cool, because a Public Service TV used Wiki as a source; that same tv usually use credible newspapers and Reuters as a source for their news. Thought I would let you know... --Candide, or Optimism04:27, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Señor Jimbo Wales, kailangan po ng Philippine Wikipedian Community ng Inyong Tulong.
Mr. Jimmy Wales,
I am writing from the Pearl of The Orient Seas, speaking in behalf of our fledgling community here which is facing difficulties and is having a hard time making world-class ,wiki-class and excellent articles and giving up to the minute and accurate information due to our resource limitations. These are the difficulties we are facing and we are asking for advice and assistance regarding the following:
1. We have a very small community which in its own numbers, is very insufficient in covering the Philippines. Our community is very small, in fact that we are hardly making progress in Philipine-related topics. Add to it the fact that most of us are still studying and working and a very significant portion of our community are minors.
2. People do not have enough information about Misplaced Pages, or are suspicious since many sites in the Net offer false promises. They either never heard of us, do come here and do not know that anybody can edit it or they do not belive that Misplaced Pages does not charge fees.
3. Encyclopedias in Philippine languages are not heard of. If ever we tell them (as per my own experience) they are either skeptical or suspicious, since it is very revolutionary that there is an encylopedia in Philippine languages, since we are used to the fact that most encyclopedias are English.
4. An encyclopedia on the internet is very very revolutionary and new to the people that they don't know that it exists.
5. We are so low-profile that even the government is suspicious if we are non profit or for profit. As per the experience of my friend and comrade in fingers, Akira, he is having some delays in his project to improve the coverage about the Manila Light Rail Transit System. He has written letters to the Transport Authority and they told him to wait for one week, it has already been 2 weeks since he sent the letter.
6. Our community are living in very different places and it is hard to travel and meet up, partly due to the fact that many of us are busy or are minors.
Therefore at your permission, I give you the difficulties and limitations of our community. I leave the propositions and the solution to the rest of the Filipino Wikipedian Community. I am but one of them, and I personally feel that they must have their opinion heard.
Indeed, none of those seem even remotely close to the mission of wikibooks at first glance. Perhaps one or two of them might be ok, maybe. Are there courses taught in high schools, job skills courses, which would include a text about preparing for employment interviews? Probably, but this could be checked. Pykrete Bong? That one is tantamount to vandalism if you ask me and should have been promptly deleted on sight.--Jimbo Wales17:22, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, Jimbo. In the coming few weeks, I think I may spend most of my time weeding out the junk and taking a stand for WB. Thanks for your guidance. I know how busy you are, and appreciate your caring for all of the Wikimedia projects, not just Misplaced Pages(s). Thanks. --LV18:34, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Should these be considered instead as possible WikiReaders?
A "Preparing for an employment interview" text would have been quite useful in the "Technical and Professional Communication" course I took in college. --Carnildo20:25, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I know you'e taken a particular interest in flagrant copyright violators, so let me point you to a particular discussion on the admin board. Note particularly his rationale when busted, ...why are you doing this? You know that Misplaced Pages isn't liable for copyright violations that it isn't aware are occurring? There's absolutely no reason to be doing this! --Calton | Talk00:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry
I was wrong. It's wrong to copy material onto Misplaced Pages without attribution. I'm sorry. I'm also sorry for violating my block to post here, but I needed to get your attention.--Primetime02:59, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Plans for releasing Misplaced Pages 1.0
The Misplaced Pages:Version 1.0 Editorial Team has been very busy and is about to start accepting nominations for Misplaced Pages:Version 0.5, a test of a CD/DVD/paper release. We would like to release this test version in autumn 2006. We will also soon be accepting Misplaced Pages:Version 1.0 Nominations in preparation for release of a full Misplaced Pages 1.0 release, soon after 0.5 if the test is successful. The nomination/approval process will mirror WP:GAN for V0.5, and WP:FAC for V1.0. We elected to start with a core of important, good-quality articles and build from there, rather than following the German model. This will allow us to scrutinise each article and check for copyright infringements, bad language, etc. The following activities are providing support for the project:
We have had successful tests of a bot which automagically prepares tables of articles by quality such as this chemistry list and the corresponding log of changes, both updated daily. We will be contacting all WikiProjects during the spring with the aim of encouraging groups to use this system. We hope the projects will at least provide us with lists of key articles in their subject area. The projects can then easily feed into V0.5 and V1.0 via the nomination process.
Please could you give your views on this strategy on the main WP:1.0 discussion page? Would you be willing to support these projects as official CD/DVD/paper releases of Misplaced Pages, assuming certain criteria (no copyright problems, etc) are met? Thanks, Walkerma01:36, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Question
Do you think lists even on a web site violates copyright laws, because Rhobite thinks lists on web sites violates copyright laws. This is just a question. Drop feedback on my talk site. Thank You.--Stco2317:56, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I understand that your question is for Mr. Wales. My point is that it's much more likely for be answered if he can link directly to examples. Just in case Mr. Wales doesn't answer you right away, I'd like to share what I know about the subject.
It is considered illegal in many countries to copy something from another site unless the owner licenses you to copy it . This includes lists. It doesn't matter if you improved the list after you copied it. You can, however, create a similar list from scratch. You can also report on what you have found on another site, giving full credit and without changing it. If you create a list from scratch, don't tell people that you "copied" it, because copying something can be against copyright laws. Instead, say that you created the list from the sources that you specify. --Team Shocker18:46, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
The last time Jimbo made a substantive edit to this page was six days ago. You will notice that he responds to very few of the comments left here. He certainly doesn't involve himself in day-to-day copyright disputes.
The talk page in question contains a discussion of the issue that involves Rhobite citing case law, then you saying the opposite without citing any kind of support, suggesting that copyright issues on Misplaced Pages should be dealt with by contacting the copyright holder (see Misplaced Pages:Copyrights), and saying that you will report Rhobite "to Misplaced Pages" and have him blocked when, in fact, he's an admin (i.e., one of the people who decides whether someone gets blocked).
The list may or may not be copyrighted. Mentioning some of the winners (say, the top three or five) is certainly fine, reproducing the whole list quite possibly is, but either way, your methods of trying to win the dispute are not. Please be civil and respect Misplaced Pages procedures rather than edit warring and ignoring Foundation-mandated policies such as Misplaced Pages:Copyrights. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 19:11, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Not disrupting Misplaced Pages is more important than whether a list of toys does or does not get added this year. It can be added next year or the year after that, if it is indeed all that important. On the other hand, Rhobite says: "I am planning to remove the copyrighted content from the AFI lists as well" as part of that discussion(05:34, 29 March) which could itself cause unnecessary disruption if done with a lack of proper coordination with other admins. Further it may be that it should not be done at all. Fair use is an area in law that that is unsettled and ever changing and there is no bright line in many cases. WAS 4.25019:34, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I am going to put the toys on the I Love Toys list from A-Z once the article is unblocked, and I think you should do the same with other list so they don't violate copyright laws. Thank You.--Stco2319:50, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Since the court aims to protect the economic value of the intellectual property as well as maximize freedom of information, this seems to be an excellent choice. WAS 4.25020:19, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't feel that I need to coordinate with other admins if I'm planning on removing copyrighted information from articles. There is a lot of misunderstanding about what lists are copyrighted. Generally if the list is a result of editorial opinion -- like the VH1 list -- it is copyrighted. Even if VH1 removes it from their website, it's still copyrighted. Even if we rearrange the list A-Z, it's still copyrighted. It's fine if people don't understand this - we can't expect every contributor to understand copyrights. However, once they're informed of the infringement they should stop adding infringing content. Rhobite20:34, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
When evaluating a fair use claim you need to consider the transformative nature of the new work. Does the new work merely "supersede the objects of the original creation" or does it "add something new, with a further purpose or different character, altering the first with new expression, meaning or message"? (Campbell v. Acuff-Rose Music, Inc). Rearranging a copyrighted list and republishing it in its entirety does not transform the work at all. Nihon Keizai Shimbun, Inc. v. Comline Business Data, Inc. found that translating, slightly altering, and republishing text is not fair use due to the nontransformative nature. As for the three other fair use factors, the nature of VH1's list is commercial, the amount which Stco23 believes he is entitled to copy is 100% of the list, and the effect of our use could negatively affect VH1's viewership or website hits. All of these factors weigh against fair use. Rhobite21:28, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
So, no, you are not quoting an authority; you are being your own authority. Are you an intellectual property lawyer? WAS 4.25001:38, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I am pretty sure I'm correct here. If you require an exact case which declares that rearranging a list of 100 items from VH1's web site is not fair use, you probably won't find one. I have quoted one of the most well-known and precedential fair use cases, Campbell, to illustrate that a fair use defense hinges on the transformative nature of a work. I also cited Nihon, a case of a company appropriating and slightly altering text on a website, which was found not to be fair use, and bears a resemblance to Stco23's request. I resent that you asked me to cite cases, but when I did that you resorted to an ad hominem attack. You don't need a law degree to explain an obvious copyright violation. I've already indulged you too much. Since Jimbo Wales' talk page isn't an appropriate place to have this discussion, please take any replies to Talk:I Love Toys if you want. Rhobite02:03, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I am pretty sure I'm correct here. The commercial value and the intellectual property content of an ordered list of entertainment items that is presented to the public in the form of an ordered list and not as a class or set lies in the ordering of the list and deordering the list removes its commercial value and the copyrightable portion of its intellectual property content. If you require an exact case which declares that rearranging a list of 100 items from VH1's web site is fair use, you probably won't find one. You have pointlessly quoted one of the most well-known and precedential fair use cases, Campbell, to illustrate that a fair use defense hinges on the transformative nature of a work. You also pointlessly cited Nihon, a case of a company appropriating and slightly altering text on a website. I find your resentment uncalled for. I have not resorted to an ad hominem attack. You don't need a law degree to explain an obvious case of fair use. I've already indulged you too much. Since Jimbo Wales' talk page isn't an appropriate place to have this discussion, please take any replies to Talk:I Love Toys if you want. WAS 4.25017:02, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
This case illustrates one of the paradoxes of the Wiki engine. In order to create a single definition in which we can all agree, we had to create some very restrictive policies. In this instance, our policies restricted useful information right out of existence. Misplaced Pages:Copyrights keeps us from copying the list. Misplaced Pages:No original research keeps us from recreating or drawing conclusions from the list. We can link to a website that has some of this information, but eventually the link will be broken and the information will be lost.
On a live template used by all the US state articles? My assumption is that since there are plenty of ways to figure this out that would be far less intrusive the point must be something else. -- Rick Block (talk) 00:15, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Wouldn't clicking "Show preview" let you see if it works without actually messing anything up? Isn't that a suitable action? Do things need to be saved to see the actual change? --LV00:21, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, there might be some things that require saving the page. And since it's a template, there may be special attributes that require the saved copy to initiate?—G.He00:25, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
--Viewing contribution data for user Jimbo Wales (sysop) (over the 2097 edit(s) shown on this page)-- (FAQ)
Time range: 1840 approximate day(s) of edits on this page
Most recent edit on: 0hr (UTC) -- 12, May, 2006
Oldest edit on: 20hr (UTC) -- 27, March, 2001
Overall edit summary use: Major edits: 25.56% Minor edits: 63.08%
Article edit summary use: Major article edits: 34.16% Minor article edits: 67.1%
Average edits per day (current): 1.14
Significant article edits (non-minor/reverts): 4.1%
Unique pages edited: 746 | Average edits per page: 2.81 | Edits on top: 2.62%
Breakdown of edits:
All significant edits (non-minor/reverts): 20.7%
Minor edits (non reverts): 14.97%
Marked reverts: 1.43%
Unmarked edits: 62.9%
Edits by Misplaced Pages namespace:
Article: 20.79% | Article talk: 12.45%
User: 6.39% | User talk: 42.35%
Misplaced Pages: 10.68% | Misplaced Pages talk: 3.67%
Image: 0.86%
Template: 0.29%
Category: 0.19%
Portal: 0%
Help: 0%
MediaWiki: 0.62%
Other talk pages: 1.38%
I was thinking that if Jimbo were to have to reapply for adminship (which would be wierd, since he has supreme power anyway, really), it could actually fail! Hehehe... --Lord Deskana09:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Jimbo Wales, I am a friend of thewolfstar. She has asked me to ask you to please help her and Merecat. She along with Merecat and many others have been blocked unfairly with no procedure followed. Thewolfstar's page is protected now, too. She and Merecat are now blocked indefinitely. Thewolfstar's unblock code has been removed by her blockers. Bishonen is involved and Swatjester, both known low-lives. Please help thewolfstar and please help Merecat. I know you hate junior highers like Bishonen and Schvatjester. SlimVirgin, Bunchofgrapes, Killerchihuahua and many others are involved for sure. Thanks Jimbo. Many are being blocked and extermminated all over the place. It's clear that any dissenting view on Misplaced Pages is not allowed. There is no doubt about it. The conspiracy is world wide and it runs deepLamb of god23:06, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Oooh, why wasn't I included in the lowlives? I live very lowly, when I live at all, and the whole WP:AN/I seems to be in on the conspiracy. (BTW, I'm reminded of Yvor Winters's comment on Gerard Manley Hopkins's The Windhover: "I breed champion aerdales, but I wouldn't write a poem comparing one of them to Jesus Christ." One must wonder what it takes to name oneself the agnus dei.) Geogre02:45, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Never fear, I would have named you, had I written that missive. You truly are the lowest of the low, Geogre... Well, ok maybe not the VERY lowest of the low, but far enough. ++Lar: t/c02:52, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I looked at thewolfstar's talk page and edit history and found at least one edit that deserved banning--I only looked briefly as it was very long. If "Lamb of god" is not a different person, then I think it's someone they know from the wikipedia review site. DyslexicEditor03:28, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
The block/ban was based on a month's behavior, multiple attempts at mediation, and took place only after a long discussion in two locations on AN/I, as well as the user's talk page. This was one of the more slow-motion bans ever, and there were innumerable attempts at getting the matter resolved by at least half a dozen unrelated persons. Geogre13:11, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
DE- It started at serious personal attacks and ended at veiled and not so veiled threats against other editors and wikipedia itself. Not a happy story.
Geogre, if you are feeling left out let us know and I'm sure we can come up with an egregious personal attack or two. I would have long since, except... I can't write sonnets. Do you have any preference for the topic of the insult? 'Near the lowest, but not quite, the lowest, of the low' lacks a certain flow that I like to have in my personal attacks. MilesVorkosigan18:50, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Nah, I do get the usual "Fatty fat fat" stuff from IP numbers, and some of my sonnets are heartfelt complaints. I was just upset that I wasn't included in the crowd of commanist caballist censors of creativity. Am I not clubbable? (It's been ages since I've been accused of being a sockpuppet, too.) Let's leave the boss's talk page alone, though. I'm sure he's got other things to do, what with running for president and all. Geogre23:02, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Apparently I've been reverted back to junior high school. Lambofgod, you can email me at dgr0498@fsu.edu (that's Florida State University) with your apology. ⇒SWATJesterAimFire!23:40, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
As long as I know cheering someone helps that one so
The Hero of Time has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling to someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Smile to others by adding {{subst:smile}} or {{subst:smile2}} to their talk pages. Happy editing!
English policies are policies in the world. Is it true?
Hello, Mr. Jimbo Wales. I'm a thankless translator who is translating policies of English version to of Japanese. My understanding is that policies existing in English Misplaced Pages are also policies in other languages after they have been imported and translated. Is it wrong? I'd like to beg your opinion.--ComSpex01:50, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Outside of some very broad basics, no. In general, local projects are free to set the policies they need, depending on local culture, local experience, etc. Some of the very broadest principles are of course applicable everywhere: NPOV, free licensing, kindness to others, etc. But the details can and should vary everywhere.--Jimbo Wales02:46, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Thank you very much for your answer, Mr. Jimbo Wales. Specifically speaking, WP:AGF and WP:CIV are the ones that are now discussed in Japanese Misplaced Pages for whether each should be a policy or a guideline. I wish you could read and write in Japanese language as a user of Japanese Misplaced Pages.--ComSpex04:42, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
If I may be permitted to make a personal observation, Assume good faith (AGF) and Civility (CIV) are both official policies on our wiki. In practise this means that all editors of the English Misplaced Pages are expected to follow them. On our large wiki, this has consequences at the higher end of the dispute resolution procedure, a person who persistently breaches either can be sanctioned, even banned.
In a smaller wiki this kind of policy may not yet appear so important. As the wiki grows, however, the benefits of having such policies will become evident. The policy making process on each wikipedia project must follow its own path, but I hope that other wikipedias can learn from our experience and that of other large projects such as the German and French Wikipedias. --Tony Sidaway16:58, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Thank you very much, Mr.Tony Sidaway. I agree. As Mr. Jimbo Wales says above, I also do believe that the two are very precious principles which are applicable beyond cultures and languages. At this time of writing, according to your words, Japanese Misplaced Pages is still one of yet smaller wikis with my regret.--ComSpex09:52, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Hello
Hey Jimbo! I'm a rather new editor to wikipedia I have been extremely impressed with my experience here. So I just wanted to say thanks for starting this, and it would completely make my day if you dropped me a note on my talk page, or wrote some jibberish on my vandalism page. Regards --Charlie04:44, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
!
QuentinSmith has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling to someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Smile to others by adding {{subst:smile}}, {{subst:smile2}} or {{subst:smile3}} to their talk pages. Happy editing!
Jimpartame has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling to someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Smile to others by adding {{subst:smile}}, {{subst:smile2}} or {{subst:smile3}} to their talk pages. Happy editing!
Hi Jimbo, I wrote a little parody of the RfA process (which I'm going through right now) and have posted it (and a ogg of it!) here: The RfA Candidate's Song. I hope you like it: you even get a mention towards the end. Bucketsofg✐14:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Wonderful job! (And it just occured to me - it must be quite bothersome to Jimbo as every time he logs on I'm sure he gets the big orange box 'You have new messages!') Cowman10901:25, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Baidu Can Do Whatever It Wants With Misplaced Pages's Content, Even Sell It, And There Is Nothing You Can Do About It
Why should Baidu care about GFDL or CC? GFDL and CC probably doesn't even apply under chinese laws. Hell, Baidu can sell wikipedia content if they want to and the chinese governmnet would not give a damn. 70.48.250.13801:03, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Dunno about that. China is a signatory to the Berne Convention, among others, and has various copyright relations with the US. While in practice they might not be as stringent as an American webhost, I wouldn't be surprised if they at least made some effort to stop people from massively ripping stuff off. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 03:30, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Considering that they don't even like WIkipedia and have blocked it nationwide, it's highly unlikely that they will actully help Misplaced Pages in anyway. 70.48.250.13805:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Again, it is legal to sell GFDL content, as long as the distributor follows the terms (which Baidu apparently does not). Superm401 - Talk03:44, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
The RFC should provide the rest of the info. I believe this to be a very important item and precedent concerning admins powers. Thank you for your time, Chuck11:51, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Note: Kindly, this message is intended for Jimbo and does not need to be commented on by other users.
It's a wiki, anyone can comment. I don't know how long of a signature we're expected to put up with before we're allowed to do something about it, but it's quite obvious we shouldn't allow signatures of arbitrary length. --Cyde Weys06:30, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Mr. Sidaway, that's not what I said. What I said was: That course of action (starting an RfC) was not the correct one. I believe every admin should be held accountable if they make a mistake; that was the intent of the RfC - although it was the wrong move to make. Please don't put words in my mouth, thank you. — Nathan18:35, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
If someone were to post/force information that cant have a basis due to the lack of research in the field, how should such cases be processed? I am inclined to remove them w/o a compramise, is that way out of line? --Catout21:30, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
"No modification" type licenses
Are these allowed or not? Not allowing modifications are defenently not GFDL compatable, and the {{CopyrightedFreeUseProvided}} template also stated that works must permit modifications or be deleted up untill 20 December 2005 when Sfre-factored the template and somehow did not mention modifications in the new version (should I re-insert it?). {{Cc-nd}}, {{Cc-by-nd-1.0}} and {{Cc-by-nd-2.0}} also say they are explicitly non-free licenses, but they don't seem to have been officialy "depreciated" either, and this kind of images was not mentioned on the anouncement that depreciated {{noncommercial}} and {{permission}} type images either. Was this an oversight, or are this kind of restrictions a-ok for Misplaced Pages use? --Sherool(talk)19:58, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Block clarification (Wikibooks)
Recently, you blocked Zephram Stark from Wikibooks . As I've had quite a bit of interaction with this user here on WP, I was a tad disappointed to see him pop up at WB, as he can be a bit frustrating sometimes. However, my question is regarding the general blocking policy. Are we allowed to block banned en.wiki users at the first sign of trouble, or do we have to go through the usual steps? My guess is that we should have a shorter leash on these users, correct? We've basically shown that we (users of all Wikimedia projects) have assumed good faith, but they have already worn it out. So we should be able to block at the very first sign of trouble, no? Thanks for your help. --Mark Neelstin02:00, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Are mods for computer games notable
Hello, I am wondering once and for all if small mods/conversions for computer games are notable, and when they go from being notable to being AFD cruft. Trying to figure this out from general guidelines is a source of great confusion for me and others. Bfelite04:16, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
As far as I'm aware, Jimbo hasn't been big on discussing notability criteria. The only comment by him I know of on the matter is this (note the edit summary), over two years ago. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 06:06, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
What was believed appropriate for Misplaced Pages changed as the number of articles went from 10,000 to 100,000 to 1,000,000. It will continue to change as it goes from 1,000,000 to 10,000,000 and more. WAS 4.25015:00, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Hello
Do you think that if they allow Pacifist user boxes they should have Facist? And if they have Christianity they should have Satanist. I am not a Satanist I am just saying they have rights to. MegaloManiac17:31, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I have not logged onto my wikipedia for about a month, and when I did I noticed some things that were quite odd with my history.
I joined in March of 2006, yet I seem to have 3 edits that were made in August of 2004... Over a year before I even joined. I also created the Doctor Andonuts page, and that is gone from my history. (Yet the page is still there) I've also made numerous edits to the Mother 3 page, yet only one edit is shown.
I'm not quite sure what is wrong, but I would be grateful if I could receive some type of explanation, advice, or assistance. Thank you for your time. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ssj27gohan (talk • contribs) .
Is it really necessary? I mean, when he makes some relatively harmless comment. It seems to me to only inflame him.--Jimbo Wales07:19, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I did hesitate on that one. There are a couple of problems, however. Firstly, when he comes back he tends to make a couple of harmless-looking edits, then when people question them on the talk page he goes into a rage. He is completely unable to respect or listen to consensus. When I was a relative newbie, he completely flamed me for disagreeing with him on Chopin's birthdate and attempting to get consensus on that talk page, and this began with relatively harmless comments on the talk page. In addition, my understanding is that he is a permanently banned user, despite not having gone through ArbCom, and that permanently banned users are generally banned from making edits even to correct spelling, and that in order to discourage them from returning and further causing disruption, edit warring, and filling the Recent changes page with Squids, they should be immediately reverted, and their IP blocked. Of course, if you disagree with me and would like me to change my behaviour, just let me know, and I will completely respect that. Cheers, Mak(talk)15:39, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I've not followed it, but I think that vandal is an old one like willy, the communist, or the pelican vandal, and so I'm amazed if it's still the same person. It's my belief that a lot of these famous ones stopped and now just have copycats. DyslexicEditor21:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, you have a point, but the edits in question had nothing to do with Squids, and everything to do with the old bones the guy likes to chew on, like Rocky Marciano, for some reason. I believe the edit Jimbo is questioning is this. I really doubt copycats have the knowledge and will to argue about these things. I didn't particularly care about the content of this particular edit. I just thought it would be best not to encourage him. He's been editing a good bit today too, but I guess I won't do anything until I hear from Jimbo. Have the Communism Vandal and the others gone through ArbCom? Mak(talk)22:49, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I should clarify that I meant my question literally, in the sense of gathering Makemi's opinion, it was not an implicit order or request, just a thought. Makemi gave me a very sensible answer, and I leave it to individual judgment of course. Just be aware that I get rather a large amount of email from this individual detailing every single alleged injustice against him. :) --Jimbo Wales17:32, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Can you provide a page on Misplaced Pages and a page on that site that both contain GFDL copyrighted material? WAS 4.25022:11, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
All of their articles on the Ivy League schools and the Ivy League itself are clearly copied from Misplaced Pages. See their content on the Ivy League and compare to Ivy League. Look at their page on Brown University Or their page on Cornell. Same for the rest of the Ivy schools. It's pretty blatant, down to even much of the formatting. I worked on several of these articles and have seem them shaped over time and long discussions, so it's certainly not the case that the Misplaced Pages articles are copyvios. --Chan-Ho (Talk)22:30, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it is a clear case of copyright violation by ivysport. In cases like this the Misplaced Pages Foundation paid legal talent contacts them and they usually eventually see the virtue of complying with our copyright license as it is the only thing that gives them the right to distribute significant amounts of Misplaced Pages content in the first place. WAS 4.25023:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
According to our GFDL policy licence he/she certainly does not. Credit must be attributed to wikipedia to ensure the contributor's right to acknowledge thier insertions. "He has the right to use Misplaced Pages's content however he wants". Wherever did you get that idea..? -Zero20:15, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
It is a copyright licence; not a "policy". The copyright of any specific material on wikipedia belongs to the contributor and not to the wikipedia foundation. The GFDL is a copyright license that lets both wikipedia and anyone else make copies that would otherwise violate copyright law. WAS 4.25022:12, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Because GFDL is supposed to give anyone the freedom to do whatever he wants with the wikipedia content he downloaded onto his own computer. If GFDL does not give him such freedom, then GFDL is wrong, not him. Issac Dick20:19, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Copyright law does not prevent anyone from doing what they want with honestly obtained copies of copyrighted material in the privacy of their own home so long as your copies stay in your home and are not copied and distributed to others thereby impacting the copyright holder. WAS 4.25022:14, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
GFDL is supposed to give anyone the freedom to do whatever he wants with . Actually, no, it was never supposed to allow that. GFDL is pretty well known as a "viral" license meaning that it propogates by allowing GFDL content to be used only if the new work also is released under the GFDL. GFDL is wrong, not him. A choice was made by Jimbo Wales, et al, to license contributions under the GFDL; editors contribute their works with the understanding that it falls under the GFDL. If someone doesn't follow the conditions of the license, s/he is breaking the terms of contract and subject to the legal consequences. That certainly doesn't make this person "right" and the license "wrong". --Chan-Ho (Talk)22:08, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I recently looked down at the bottom of one of the articles copied here and found it clearly states the source is from Misplaced Pages. The other replicated pages, such as this one also are sourced. This may have been done recently, but is there still an issue concerning copyrights if the source is given? Cowman10923:22, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Hm...that's interesting. The first two pages I found (see the links above) through Google were on the Ivy League and Cornell, and they definitely did not (and still do not) have those notices. It's possible I only looked at the bottom for references to Misplaced Pages on the exact two that didn't have the notice and didn't note the others had it (I only checked the others to verify they looked like Misplaced Pages duplicates).
In any case, they're not in full compliance with the GFDL, because it's not enough to just have a notice. For one thing, as someone mentioned above, they must provide a list of contributors, which they definitely do not. Well, I guess I'm content as long as they mention Misplaced Pages. I only brought this up to learn a little about how (and if) Misplaced Pages responds to these things. --Chan-Ho (Talk)00:25, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
"In cases like this the Misplaced Pages Foundation paid legal talent contacts them and they usually eventually see the virtue of complying with our copyright license as it is the only thing that gives them the right to distribute significant amounts of Misplaced Pages content in the first place." Not to be too rude, but this is completely wrong. The Wikimedia foundation does not own copyright on any articles so the can not enforce the GFDL. It is contributors like me who write and send such letters; to help, see Misplaced Pages:Mirrors and forks. Also, websites rarely comply with such requests, rather than usually. Superm401 - Talk03:47, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
You asked that no one reinsert the real name of the comic that plays this character without an unimpeachable source. Please review the source that I found on the talk page of the article - does it pass muster? I would change the article myself, but I am concerned that I would be violating some policy. Clarifier18:05, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
harsch sentence
i know you have been bloking many people that why i've decided to come here. it's not the time to consider a shorter sentence(sort of amnesty) for good comportement(behavior) for those who have been blocked indefinitely?i've found very severe to block somebody indefinitely or more than 6 months.Felisberto20May2006(UTC)
O RLY?
It appears as if I am going to make you part of an ongoing internet phenomeon. My apologies if you feel as if I violated your privacy. Please don't hurt me or any members of my family.
newspaper article about WP Newport News, James city Virginia
A reporter and photographer from the Daily Press newspaper in Newport News, Virginia came to our home near Williamsburg yesterday afternoon, and interviewed me, and photographed me and Mom for a story on Misplaced Pages and my work.
The reporter considers me something of a historian on local history and transportation subjects. I explained off the record that my bus company situation is still in litigation, and I didn't want it included in story. (It went belly up in 2004).
Story set to run Monday, May 22 in Spotlight section. Keep your fingers crossed story is complimentary and reasonably accurate. I dont know if this feature is opart of the paper which they publsih online, but I will try to scan the article of it isn't. Hopefully, good press for WP. Thought you would want to know.
—G.He has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling to someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Smile to others by adding {{subst:smile}}, {{subst:smile2}} or {{subst:smile3}} to their talk pages. Happy editing!
um, hi, i know that this isn't considered an "encyclopedic" topic by many wikizealots, but i just have reeeeeeeaaaalllllly been wondering why Brian Peppers is down. i mean, what good does that do for wikipedia? how does this help? if the article was unverified or in bad condition somehow, why can't we just make a new one? at the very least, we could have a redirect to the Internet Phenomenon page.
it struck me as extremely bizarre for wikipedia to not have an article on this. Joeyramoney05:20, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I wasn't around when it happened, but what I heard was, Brian Peppers saw the article about him, decided it was libelous, and threatened to sue Jimbo. That's why he took it down and won't let anybody write anything new. Jimpartame06:20, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
"I quite properly speedied it as a recreation of content which had already been properly deleted per AfD. You can't just keep recreating things over and over hoping to get the result you want out of an AfD. The multiple AfD's should have never happened in the first place."
"The only "Jimbo" thing I did was to basically say: cool it for awhile. I'll gladly consider shortening the cooling period if positive recent developments to our policy on biographies of living persons are shaped into a form that gets huge community consensus and gives us a better way to deal with these issues than the nonsense of repeated AfD battles. That way lies madness.--Jimbo Wales 03:10, 23 February 2006 (UTC)" - Quote provided by WAS 4.25013:28, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Right. This was not a legal issue in any way, it was a community issue. A huge brawl was brewing over something absolutely unimportant, and procedure had already been ignored and I felt we were on the verge of a totally absurd wheel war over it. The rumors, detailed above, of a legal threat from Brian Peppers are totally untrue. --Jimbo Wales17:30, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
(Oy, this is much longer than I'd intended it to be) And that's the part that concerns some of us; where Misplaced Pages is not open to civil action (as, for example, in our having an article, even a biased one, about Brian Peppers), WP:OFFICE oughtn't to be used. OFFICE protections/deletions undertaken lest Misplaced Pages should be sued are one thing; surely those who donate to the Foundation don't desire that their contributions should be used to fight every prospective legal battle, and we would do well temporarily to protect pages in order that our article should not leave the foundation open to suit (of course, it is exceedingly rare that the Foundation should be open to suit). Where an action is taken by Jimbo, either consistent with OFFICE or with his other powers, only to quell community unrest or to insulate Misplaced Pages from public criticism (I understand the former to have been more relevant here), we are simply faced with Jimbo's substituting his judgment for that of the community. Jimbo, to be sure, is usually eminently deliberate and deferential in acting as the ultimate Wikipedian, but, in this instance, I think he erred; the solution to our debating stridently and vociferously (and perhaps disruptively) apropos of the propriety of our having an article is not less talk but more. Jimbo's intimation, for example, that polemical userboxes are, on the whole, exorbitantly disruptive, has convinced many users to abandon their divisive userboxes, and, even as debates continue w/r/to userboxes, several proposals to resolve finally the situation are now drawing considerable community support; though some users are unlikely ever to compromise, most users do not desire that one issue should disrupt the project and so will work collegially and collectively to ameliorate problems. We surely don't want to go down the road of removing every article over which substantial portions of the Misplaced Pages community disagree (we'd be left with far fewer than our 1M+ articles); it is much better that we should encourage further collaboration. Here, the issue was either (a) that the Peppers article was dividing the community so severely that its being removed, even as it might harm the encyclopedia by removing a sourced article, was on the whole better for the project or (b) that Jimbo construed WP:NN and WP:NOT to mean that Peppers oughtn't to have a biographical article here. The former leads us down a slippery slope, while the latter simply represents the imposition of the view of one to the exclusion of the views of many. Jimbo rightfully and properly steps into certain situations here, but I would hope he'd refrain from insinuating himself into simple disputes over notability/verifiability, at least in any capacity other than as an everyday editor, and I fear he may have acted otherwise here. Nevertheless, I don't believe that our not having a Brian Peppers article means that the project has failed, and so I continue to edit and enjoy; to the extent that Jimbo's action was simply meant to remind us (I should say I wasn't really involved in the Peppers discussions; they predated my coming here) that we're here to create and benefit from an encyclopedia, not to debate the minutiae of policy or to quarrel over an individual article. Notwithstanding that I believe biographies of living people ought not to be treated in a fashion different from that in which we treat most of our articles, such that we absolutely ought not, contra Jimbo, to care about the effects of our disseminating accurate and sourced information (we are, after all, disinterested and dispassionate encyclopedists), I understand that a consensus exists for our editing consistent with some sense of the harm limitation principle (though cf. the rejected Wikiethics and WP:NOT EVIL); I don't, though, think that the judgment of Jimbo is necessarily superior to that of a collection of editors. Joe23:22, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Addressing the concern of Joeyramoney, and inasmuch as Peppers is mentioned on the meme page, I wonder whether we might consider unprotecting Brian Peppers and redirecting it per Joeyramoney; thereafter the page can again be protected. Joe23:22, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I think the redirect would be a good idea. This graph from Google Trends certainly suggests Brian Peppers isn't going to be forgotten very soon. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 00:28, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
In this edit http://en.wikibooks.org/search/?title=Wikibooks:What_is_Wikibooks&diff=prev&oldid=434945 you said "Wikibooks is not a repository for video game manuals ". The effort to move these books to a different project has been going well, I moved all the books I wrote to my own wiki. Another user (Garrett) has been active in moving the rest to strategywiki which uses the GFDL. The problem is, some Wikibooks users have started to question the moves, you can see the disscussion here.
Garrett has raised the question "Is this the Foundation speaking, or is it only Jimbo?". Could you please go to Wikibooks and join the discussion. The moving of books has been put on hold until this is sorted out.
I myself have just grabbed the 300+ Pokémon pages (which I believe are not covered by the GFDL because they are lists and tables of factual data), and the Wikibooks versions are ready to be deleted. (Which took nearly 24 hours)! The sooner you respond, the sooner they can be deleted and we can all move on with our lives. Thanks, Gerard Foley23:42, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I would say, this will be the end of wikipedia.de
Hi Mr.Wales , here´s some stuff (not complete) only from today. For a short summary ask de: Benutzer:Elian or de:Benutzer:Henriette Fiebig. See you tomorrow and aftertomorrow with new disgusting stuff.
Hi Mr.Wales, today is Monday - Day 2. Here´s a collection of new disgusting stuff from de. (btw.: sometimes I think, I and about 10 users more are the only, who write articles (but that might be subjective)
9.According to User NoAOL this was the topic the Germans contributed most today:
These 2 guys have noticed,that first de:Benutzer:Finanzer,later de:Benutzer:Markus Schweiß have made a mistake. Now they are preparing a correct "Benuzersperrung". According to Wranzl their prepariations will take a week. So you will get two weeks of new disgusting stuff.Look what they have done today:
There were some topics more today,Tuesday - Day 3' but I´m getting more and more confused. Maybe tommorrow you will get some the rest. Cheers 22:56, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Who the....?
Excuse me, Mr. Wales, I know you're busy but who the heck deleting the userboxes page. Are you planning to eliminate them or something? Thanks for listening. GANDALF199221:54, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
~Ron~
Juan Cole page
Hi, I just saw your comments to me on the Juan Cole page. I feel kind of crushed, actually, because I very much respect the project and have been trying to do good quality edits in good faith here. Elizmr00:23, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
So I just read what I wrote again, and respectfully have to say that I can't see that it is such a mockery:
The NPOV policy states that everything must be written from neutral point of view. Conflicting views should all be presented in a fair neutral tone. The article doesn't come down on any side; the reader is left to judge for his/her self. The article should not be overtly sympathetic or negative towards the subject of the article. We should describe the debate that exists regarding Cole here as fully as we can. One of the great advantages of Misplaced Pages to a single author source, is that we can have different individuals or "camps" describing different sides of a debate.
Elizmr, with all due respect, this is a mockery of what Misplaced Pages stands for. The original statement, which you say is at odds with Misplaced Pages, is a far more accurate summary of NPOV. NPOV is not about warring camps adding POV bits to an article and hoping against hope that it comes out ok in the end. It is absolutely correct to say that it is not the job of Cole's fans to balance out the article, and also absolutely correct to say that if you or anyone else is unwilling to invest time finding responses to critiques, then they should recuse themselves from the article.--Jimbo Wales 21:01, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I apologize for using the word "camps" --it was a particularly bad choice of words. What I was trying to say is that different authors who understand various nuances of the dialog the best can describe it most cogently and accurately. Of note, the only really contentious article that I have edited on Misplaced Pages in the past was the one on MEMRI, which was very much of an attack piece and I went in and tried to find stuff to balance the attacks out rather than insist that they be removed (because I thought that the attacks were a valid piece of the dialog).
This is the next piece of what I wrote and your reply:
Regarding your earlier statement, "The Cole detractors editing this page are using a lawyer's technique of putting up scurrilous charges like anti-semitism that are based on conjecture in order to tarnish Cole in the eyes of the "jury" (ie a casual reader not familiar with the subject)," I would refer you to another Misplaced Pages policy, WP:AGF. This policy asks us to give each other the benefit of the doubt that we are all working here for the good of Misplaced Pages, eg, on this article, to present a full multidimensional view of Juan Cole. Working under the assumption that "Cole detractors" are "putting up scurrilous charges like antisemitism" in order to "tarnish cole" is kind of assuming bad faith on the part of the "Cole detractors", isn't it? Assuming good faith would be to give other editors the benefit of the doubt that they are putting this stuff in because they consider it a relevant piece of the dialog on Cole. But remember, just because a scholar says that Cole is "x" for reasons "y" and "z", that doesn't mean Cole is "x" or not--that is left to the reader. Again, welcome to Misplaced Pages, and as you begin to edit on pages like this where emotions are high I hope you can begin by remembering that we are all on the same team here--we are Wikipedians--not Cole supporters or Cole detractors. Elizmr 23:17, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Assuming good faith is important, of course. However, it is pretty hard to read the version of the article being complained about and characterize it in any other way. Note well: I am not a fan of Prof. Cole.--Jimbo Wales 21:01, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I honestly have to say that although I don't know the other editors on the page, I don't think anyone was trying to purposely tarnish cole by putting stuff on the page they didn't believe was true. I personally only put stuff up that I felt was an important part of a three dimensional portrait of Cole on Misplaced Pages. He has said some very controversial things and takes a quite controversial tone on his blog; this is part of who he is. I also edited in the sandbox version quite a bit in order to achieve NPOV, although the version now has moved away from this quite a bit. I am a person of integrity and am speaking with complete honestly here. I do think that I deserve an assumption of good faith.
Being a new user, I am not familiar with the WP chain of command or process of appeal. I believe you are high in the administrator ladder.
This is not a matter of taking sides but for the good of the WP community. The following comment gives you the flavor of what is going on in a nutshell. Also, I know you are already familiar with the article.
"Stub it and then block the stub. The damage is a continuing damage as new readers come to the site. In fact each day the damage progresses. It's just a matter of time until a national or international media picks up the news. Like they did the Cuba article. I can see the bylline. "NeoKon Likudniks hijack Juan Cole WP article and get it locked against balancing edits. Tar him as anti-semite b/c of his forceful and effective criticism of repressive Israeli occupation of Palestinians and American heavy handed Iraq occupation. They are also concerned about his moderating stance toward the Iran war stampede." Take Care!--Will314159 16:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)"
The problem is the article is locked in a prejudical mode, no consensus can be achieved, yet the administrator in charge, who won't identify himself, won't stub the protected article and leaves the offending article up. Take Care!--Will314159 18:09, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
It just seems so common sense to 1) take the non-neutral article down, 2) put up a protected stub, and 3) work on a new version at liesure. What am I missing? I am beginning to appreciate articulating in a NPOV point of view. Have to overcome years of legal advocacy habit. Take Care!--Will314159 19:11, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
To answer one or two minor points: 1) Jimbo is, de facto, in charge of the project, and he can impose anything he wants (subject only theoretically to disapproval by the Board), so saying he's "high in the administrator ladder" is correct but something of an understatement; on the other hand 2) he generally isn't acting in the capacity of head honcho unless specifically noted; 3) there's not really a ladder of administrators, but rather Jimbo/Danny/the Board/the Foundation generally at the top, and every other user largely equal (although administrators are given more technical powers, they theoretically aren't given more authority); 4) you can verify at Special:Logs that User:Mysekurity was the one who protected the page, in response to a request at Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection; and 5) if you want the page unprotected, the place to ask is Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection, but it's unlikely that it will be unprotected until the argument on the talk page is resolved. Hope that helps. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 03:56, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Are you a "Muslim editor" ?
If not, then you are not entitled to "leave any message here":
Hello, Jimbo Wales, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:
I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! Computerjoe's talk15:30, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Hello, Jimbo Wales, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:
I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome, have fun, and be the best that you can be!
Hmmm... is this really necessary? Maybe I'm just being too serious, but I don't think this is appropriate. --Lord Deskana18:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if you saw it in my email, so I'll repeat here, just for good measure... When will you next be available on IRC, mate? We need to thrash out details of our agreement and my statement. NSLE(T+C) at 01:01 UTC (2006-05-24)
By Permission Only Images to be deleted
I Do not understand other admins interpretations of your decisions. .
This seems to be talking about how if you can find an alternative you should replace the image, However, I have seen this Policy being applied beyond when a free alternative is impractical and Offends the Copyright holder even more.
Specifically in the UserSpace Zone in combination with fair use. Please see the talks of these images for examples.
Is their some policy about misinterpreting what you say (Oh Great Mighty Creator)?
I feel Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy for this very reason. I am sorry to involve you in this issue but I can't stand when people keep quoting everything you say and claim it means something unrelated. You are a reasonable person, however some of your followers will take what you say unconditionally with the least respect to the our community. I am approaching you because this is about what you said. I can't reason with somebody who say Jimbo say this or Jimbo said that. It seams Impracticable to involve you in every dispute. Can you make some statement so we can free the minds of people who are encapsulated by the belief that you have the final word on everything. PS. Don't you also own Uncyclopedia? (outside of the sense that everybody owns the wiki)--E-Bod03:17, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
