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This article contains a translation of Οικονομία της Ελλάδας from el.wikipedia.

This article contains a translation of Ελληνική κρίση δανεισμού 2010 from el.wikipedia.

Racial slur detected, asking for protection

"Eurostat revealed that the budgetary statistics on the basis of which Greece joined the eurozone had been under-reported by the conniving wops." Excuse me? I highly doubt that the Eurostat report used such a racial slur as "wop". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.103.70.41 (talk) 08:48, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Military Spending

hv jhmb v bg.j 'Bout a month ago, the article contained the figures for military spending. where did those figures go?

Project2501a 14:37, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

A-K-Y-R-O Project2501a 14:39, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Electricity generation

I believe that the vast majority of Greek electricity generation is from lignite, not hydro as reported in the statistics. Also, wind energy amounts to a few hundred megawatts and probably deserves a mention independently.

" In Greece today the mainer source for electricity generation is the lignite, representing roughly 59% of total production. The fuel oil that is used mainly in units of not connected system CAPONE IS AWSOME 13%, the big hydroelectric roughly 6%. The production from RSE oscillates in roughly 2,5% and this is included the wind power plants, the micrometers hydroelectric work, the biomass and photovoltaic systems."

from http://www.argotrade.com/wind/

I read in a 1984 World Book that 25% of villagers did not have power, do they all have it now?

Outdated figures

The CIA Factbook has more recent figures (many from 2004) than this article.

• The article doesn't mention at any detail the everyday reality concerning the HUGE problems of poverty, loaning and unemployment. Pictureuploader 10:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Q1 2011 growth is -5,5% not +0,8% — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.103.152.68 (talk) 16:56, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree with you on the omissions, but you are wrong on the GDP growth. The economy grew 0.8% in the past month, but -5.5% between 2010 and 2011. --Philly boy92 (talk) 17:48, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

neoliberal view

However there are two challenges for policymakers: a)to avoid an economic slump after the enthusiasm of the Games has gone and the EU farm subsidies get cut in 2006 and b) to proceed with stuctural economic reforms, especially in the areas of social insurance, welfare, and the labour market which will encourage further investments, lower the country's high unemployment and promote growth and economic stability. The first step was taken on the 30th June 2005 with substantial reforms of the insurance system for bank employees against fierce opposition from the unions and the main opposition partyPASOK with laws liberalising working hours in retail trade and employment and providing for public/private financing initiatives of public works and services to follow over the summer.

aint this just the neoliberal view / proposed solution?

there is no such thing as "neoliberal" its a mere attempt to accuse ND for beeing right-wing while in fact there is little connection between their policies and what constitutes "right-wing" economic policies world wide. By international standarts Even ND economic policies(the ones folowed today) are considered "socialist". 79.129.169.49 (talk) 23:02, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

male/female work force ratio

According to EU12 ratings, IIRC after italy or portugal, greece follows with less women working compared to men in EU12. This is a main characteristic of economy growth and it is especially mentioned in EU advisory papers for countries. It's true that strong and very high growing economies like Sweden's show an equal share or even more women working than men. I strongly believe all this should analysed somehow in such articles.

Financial problems

I repeat: this article doesn't mention anything about the HUGE financial problems of which Greece is suffering. The financial is the most permanent and prevailing problem the average Greek citizen is concerned about, Greece has the 3rd worst economy of the EU, goods' prices are augmenting about once per month, about half of the news is about the difficulty of the middleman to overcome his financial obligations, him having 2 jobs at once to live his family, finance it's the factor about which the Greeks are most pessimistic about and the TV commercials are mostly for bank loans. The only thing one gathers from this article is 'Greece is advancing and all goes well'. Pictureuploader 13:56, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

man, be my guest ;) you go ahead and fix that, with NPOV in mind, of course, and i'll edit yoru changes. I don't wanna be the first to touch anything Greek-related lately, cuz i get called a whiney bitch, who should stfu, since i'm living in the country ;) but i'll be glad to copy-edit and dos ome minor fixing ;) Project2501a 19:54, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

It's not that simple. Because I live with something, or that I hear it everytime in the news, doesn't mean I can source it or write it in an encyclopedic way. I am invocing anyone into economics to expand this section of the article. Pictureuploader 13:34, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I know, I keep running into the same problem with my other articles, that's why i mentioned the 'whiney bitch' bit ;) . Anyway. How about this: Let's set up a task list with the individual sectors. One thing we could easily insert and cite, would be unemployment, especially amongst young educated people. i bet there's like a bunch of links around the world on that subject. furthermore, we could really talk about how the small factories in Greece are moving across the border in favor of cheaper labor. hmm

Greece may have those problems but keep in mind that the economy is growing at the rate of 4% a year and the govenment issued more reforms at the beggining of 2006 that has helped since.vasman

The everyday and practical problems are equally, if not more, notable for the article, than theoretical numbers. Pictureuploader 10:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

you watch too much tv or havent been anywhere else lately... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.1.149.199 (talk) 00:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the guy above. (someone who actually lives abroad) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.130.239.173 (talk) 01:16, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

When I was living in the U.S. I kept hearing about "economic problems", "poverty" and "people suffering" in that country (the U.S. !). It is natural that people who have not been in truly poor countries have no idea of the relative meaning of those terms. Many people in Asia and Africa almost feel offended by Westerners talking about "poverty" with such strong terms. Economy and development of nations is a very complex matter and, certainly, our source of knowledge should not only be TV shows. Skartsis (talk) 14:44, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

This piece is heavily biassed towards a socialist/communist point of view of a free market economy (and any corporate activity) being the cause of all problems when in fact Greece's problems are caused by far too rigid government control in combination with massive government corruption and overspending.

Greek GDP 2007

Why is this so high? The revised GDP has not been verified by the EU as of yet, it is highly unlikely that it will. This is misleading. Greece has a long way of being on par with Spain's economy. I can't why somebody has the motivation to give a false image of reality in this manner. The real figure of Greece is nothing to be ashamed of! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.126.193.38 (talk) 06:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC).

It is high, because Greece's economy is strong with high rates of development. The per capita income is on par with that of Spain's and far above Portugal for instance. The IMF places it around $27,300 for 2007 while other respected organizations as the Economist place it even higher. Needless to say that the Eurostat has already approved the data since the last GDP per capita that published is around 22,000 Euros aprox the figure of the IMF. So that is the real figure and of course Greece is not ashamed of it!62.1.24.239 21:00, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

There has been a lot of talk about Greek numbers. Eurostat approved only a partial revision of Greek GDP in Oct 2007, while other organizations "accepted" a higher revision (this could change, based on the final Eurostat data published recently). There has been historically a big problem with proper evaluation of Greece's black economy, but one thing we should all try to do, is to avoid "empirical" assessments of economic performance. Skartsis 16:52, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I am Greek, and I tried to put the correct value for GDP per capita in and it keeps getting changed to a ridiculously high and unrealistic value. There is no way these values are correct. According to article right now (Nov. 5, 2007), Greece has a higher GDP per capita than Germany. Are you kidding me? Come on people, let's correct this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.229.59.23 (talk) 23:02, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

That is actually the IMF's latest PPP estimate for 2006, which you can find here. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 02:11, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I have been watching economic data for decades and I have to admit that the current IMF version (which combines a PPP-index revision on top of the "full" originally planned Greek GDP revision - which was not finally approved) may be unrealistic. The same holds for the new IMF estimates for Israel and Cyprus (in all three cases IMF numbers differ significantly to those of other sources). On the other hand, Greece's black economy does create a lot of confusion. When estimating the true buying power of Greeks one should take everything into account (the "state's" wealth is another issue). Based on my experience, the most accurate estimate seems to be the current Eurostat value (released end Oct 07). Skartsis 16:22, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I havent seen the Oct 07 value you refer to, but based on the April 07 value of Eurostat, Greece had a GDP per capita of 22,100 Euro. Now if you convert that to dollars its approx 33,000 $, in par with what the IMF says. So I dont see any difference between different organizations.77.83.28.16 11:51, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:33, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Second most working people in the world

I changed it to : "Greeks are the second most working people between OECD countries" since the Forbes survey is between OECD countries not "the world" as previously mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Basiljabber (talk • contribs) 21:08, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Major reworking

Recent economic history

The per capita income (purchasing power terms) of Greece was 65% that of France in 1850, 56% in 1890, 62% in 1938 , 75% in 1980 and 90% in 2007 . Mistaken according to IMF it was 84.79% in 1980 73.72% in 1990 71.66% in 2000 and finally 86.98% in 2007 IMF doesnt keep data before 1980.

In 1981, protective barriers were removed when Greece joined the European Community on January 1, 1981 and cohesion funds contributed considerably to the country's fast economic development in the 1980s. By 1989 Greece belonged to a group of 23 "advanced economies". Again according to the IMF i dont believe 0.7% average growth counts as "fast economic development in the '80's"

By 1989 Greece belonged to a group of 23 "advanced economies". IMF 1980 25th richest per capita 1990 30th richest per capita. Close to 23 but not quite.

The "historic" data are derived from the sources given. IMF is not used, as it made, in 2007, a "retroactive" correction of the newly revised Greek GDP applying it to all the years since 1980 (something that is mathematically wrong, since the Greek GDP, as that of many other countries, had been revised inbetween). Both IMF and Eurostat data are continuously changing/revised (just look at even two consecutive releases), and there is variation between data from different sources, so one has to be very careful. As far as the 23 "advanced" economies are concerned, they are obviously not derived by rank by income (Qatar is still not such an economy), but by definition of organizations like WB and IMF. For the 1980s growth, I agree, it was miserable, we all remember. Skartsis (talk) 10:24, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

One of the successes of recent Greek economic policy has been the reduction of inflation rates. For more than 20 years, inflation hovered in the double digits, it reached 23% in late 1990. But a combination of fiscal consolidation, wage restraint, and strong drachma policies resulted in lowered inflation. Inflation fell to 2.0% by mid-1999

IMF data again inflation rates surpassed 20% in 1980,1981,1982,1986,1990 while inflation for late '90s was less than 5% in average. I also think Greek economic policies influence is exagerated but if someone can source that Im ok with that.

Cost of living I already edited the "second most working people in the world" since the Forbes article clearly stated otherwise.

Household debt The explosion of borrowing and lending was that they emerged after the banking deregulation and the falling interest rates caused Greece to have among the highest lending growth rates in the EU.

This is misleading since Ive only found sources about beeing the fifth out of EU15 which is somewhat average and not worth mentioning. 

Indicative of the 'trend' of over-loaning in recent years is the fact that the ratio exceeded deposits for lending in the first half of the 100 units, suggesting that the allocations are now more than deposits.

This is also misleading since thats how its supposed to work not a solely "greek" phenomenon

for more information check Federal Reserve System. Basiljabber (talk) 22:10, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Lower/middle/higher social class

It should be interesting to study this 3 groups, how they live and got their money, what are their daily troubles, etc. Yug (talk) 18:06, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

The way this article begins, I feel like I live in a different country. Is is over-optimistic regarding the quality of life, as in the recent years there are 20% Greeks who live a luxurious and good life, 20% struggling to get by and the rest completely forgotten in their misery. There may have been development and well-being during the last decades, but most of the wealth has been distributed to the 20% of the population and the rest try to racket their way to it. And regarding the official statistics the government publishes are overoptimistic, as in a recent euro-poll only 10% of the Greeks are optimistic about the economy (those who earn money in Greece and spend most of their time in Switzerland). --Dimorsitanos (talk) 02:29, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Only one who has lived on Greece can understand this weird self-pity, self-rejection syndrom that we learn starting from school! Read any Greek newspaper or hear the news on TV and then you are ready to commit suicide; to be pessimistic and talk about "catastrophe approaching" is one of the favorite local sports, and I remember hearing the same stuff as long as I live (such arguments ae used to exhibit the ... ingenuity and mind superiority of those who criticize the rest). And then the same people (reporters) go on making polls that "reveal" that Greeks are pessimistic. It would be worth saving and publishing a ...collection of garbage published in Greek media! Skartsis (talk) 12:11, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

ctitic:

I just wrote a ten page article about the development of greek economy for school. Now I can say that many of the facts in this wikipedia article, and especially many of the numbers are definitley wrong. (-> OECD, World Factbook) The article is not very good. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.124.242.42 (talk) 19:55, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

1980s

One error that has been left uncorrected for several months is the statement about "high economic growth in the 1980s". In reality the 1980s was pretty much a decade of miserable economic performance, often called "the lost decade", clearly connected with socialist experiments (including nationalization of major companies) - to include all arguments, though, I should mention that "unofficial" or "black" economy grew faster. Ironically, it is the same political party that is credited with a reversal of economic performance and high growth after 1994. I have reworded the sentence about the 1980s, hoping that it more accurately reflects the situation. Skartsis (talk) 06:41, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

To the IP for whom the article "is far too poor"

To the editor(s) doing , you need to have a real discussion here beyond "it is far too poor." There is no way I am going to accept that it's better to have a version where the top image is a deleted comment over a real image. That's a starting point. If this continues, I will semi-protect the page so we can move on. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:50, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

"Adventures" of this article

Articles about such general-interest subjects like this, are written and progressively enriched/perfected through cooperation of many contributors. All of a sudden I see that most of the article has been erased, including a lot of detailed data about the recent/current situation. Normally there should be a discussion about possible improvements, not such an "attack". As if this were not enough, somebody added the "written like an advertisement" label (as most of the material about the recent evolutions had been removed). I think such articles deserve better protection - if anything, massive deletions like the recent one should be undone, and a responsible editor should propose a revised version. Skartsis (talk) 14:40, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

The article does not include at all anything about Greece's huge financial problems, economic instability and etc. All other Economy articles, such as Economy of Italy say about their country's problems, but Greece doesn't. And let's face it, I know a lot about country's economies and Greece has a lot of corruption, low economic freedom, a recent poor economic performance and it is going through one of its worst recessions. Now, I'm not saying to erase the article and re-write it totally with a negative POV, however, some facts need to be added and there is nothing one can prove against it. This is fact, not opinion, and there are a lot of sources to prove this.--Theologiae (talk) 14:50, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

The problem with some articles about economic history is that they either reflect very recent conditions (experienced at the time somebody wrote the article) or do not put things in the right context - typical of garbage written in newspaper or heard in TV shows. For example writing about "huge economic problems and corruption" in Italy and Bangladesh are both technically accurate, but, especially in an encyclopedic article, one should put the information about the country in the right context. Before the "Economy of Greece" article was "attacked" it had somewhat of a balance, as in the last paragraphs it analyzed recent negative evolutions. I would suggest that a couple of paragraphs were added at the end, that reflect the negative factors (low competitiveness, corruption etc) and the negative current situation, but it should not fall in the usual traps mentioned above. Skartsis (talk) 15:52, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Where's the beef? All information on the current economic crises is missing.

Where is the encyclopedic information on the recent (current) economic crises in Greece? The failure of an article on the economy of Greece to have a decent summary of the current fiscal crises of the Greek government, issues with public sector jobs, protests, is remarkable. And it is not up to the ordinary standards of Misplaced Pages to avoid POV. Has there been some kind of political consensus among a few editors to avoid bad news in this article? Or what? N2e (talk) 11:18, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Remember we're not writing the news. It's important to keep articles up to date on this sort of situation, but it's also important to show restraint. I agree with you that it could / should be covered more substantially, but I don't believe it's any sort of deliberate exclusion. If the current state of the Greek economy is notable enough, it may merit its own article, in which case it would be appropriate to have a line or two about it and a "for more information, see article blah". I'm not well versed in the subject so I'll leave that decision to someone else. 203.217.150.69 (talk) 08:01, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

According to this talk page lots of information was indeed removed last October.--Straw Cat (talk) 13:02, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Hedge Funds betting against the Euro after private meeting on Feb 8 - US Department of Justice investigating legality - Orders them to keep transaction records for investigation

Reuters article on the meeting: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2515219020100226

BusinessWeek article on the DoJustice investigation: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-03-03/u-s-said-to-tell-hedge-funds-to-save-euro-records-update2-.html

Bloomberg article on the investigation: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aGwpiEXSgoxs&pos=3

Wall Street Journal article on the Hedge Funds' "ganging" of euro. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB40001424052748703795004575087741848074392.html

--AaThinker (talk) 06:16, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

The numbers just don't add up...

"The Greek economy is a developed economy with the public sector accounting for about 40% of GDP. The service sector contributes 75.7% of the total GDP, industry 20.6% and agriculture 3.7%. "

I might be reading this incorectly but isn't 40+75+20+3 = 148% ? 82.21.25.153 (talk) 17:09, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

public sector is full off services? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Athinker (talk • contribs) 23:09, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Public vs private is different that service vs industry. Pirate 02:12, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Public services --Leladax (talk) 19:22, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

CIA as principal source

for a country that it helped create a military Dictatorship in the 60s admittedly by Bill Clinton. This is insulting. --Leladax (talk) 23:13, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Construction industry in period 1995 to 2007 and Asset prices

No mention is made of the affect of the Construction industry in period 1995 to 2007 and Asset prices (perhaps a bubble). Somebody should add something in this direction and the effect on GDP. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.64.151.108 (talk) 12:48, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

I also believe that mention needs to be made of the economy between 1950 and 1965, between 1965 and 75 and between 1975 and 90. Also need to discuss war and pre-war economy at least to 1900 with a paragraph for the period 1821 to 1900. Note that the greek nation has been bankrupt a number of times in its history. Focus on national debt is essential in this topic.

See also https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gr.html The Economy Overview "Greece is a major beneficiary of EU aid, equal to about 3.3% of annual GDP. The Greek economy grew by nearly 4.0% per year between 2003 and 2007, due partly to infrastructural spending related to the 2004 Athens Olympic Games, and in part to an increased availability of credit, which has sustained record levels of consumer spending. But growth dropped to 2% in 2008. The economy went into recession in 2009 and contracted by 2%, as a result of the world financial crisis, tightening credit conditions, and Athens' failure to address a growing budget deficit, which was triggered by falling state revenues, and increased government expenditures." and other details. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.64.151.108 (talk) 12:58, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

New GDP data for 2010

Greece's Gross Domestic Product - GDP US$ 305.005 billion (2010 estimate) GDP (Purchasing Power Parity)- 322.555 billion US$ (2010 estimate )

I think I found out a source showing why Greece is pushed to default.

http://nowandfutures.com/d2/Top50_CDS_Gross_notional20081031.htm

Turkey holds most of the CDS assets in the world. Do the math. --Athinker (talk) 13:47, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Budget deficit negative number

If the budget deficit is listed as -$34.5 billion, doesn't that mean they have a budget surplus of +$34.5 billion? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.49.215.193 (talk) 23:21, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Its written as it appears on the Eurostat statistics table. --Philly boy92 (talk) 23:41, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Chart of Greek GDP,(two kinds of) Debt and Goverment Deficit.

I've just uploaded this chart that I've just created.GDP and Debt timeseries start at 1970;Deficit at 2000. Should I add it in somewhere (in example after the "History of government debt and deficit (1999-present" table) or are there any objections?? Thanatos|talk 00:36, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Since no one expressed any objections, I went on and added the chart.Thanatos|talk 18:47, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

New chart created and uploaded.It's the same with the one above but for the current euros.Are there any objections to adding it after the last one???Thanatos|talk 04:37, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Again,since noone objected, I went on and added the new chart.Thanatos|talk 19:34, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

The reliability of the article is questoned

The reliability of this article is questioned because some references are not reliable (for example are from sites and newspapers) and also some data are not updated, for example the deficit today is - 6.9 and not - 9.5 that the article predicts for 2011--- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 688dim (talk • contribs) 23:35, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

We do our best to keep the article as up to date as possible, however the problem is that some statistics are not easy to find as Eurostat and ELSTAT may not publish all their results. If you have found something from a reliable statistical source, please feel free to contribute to the article. However, I do not understand what you mean when you say that sources are not reliable because they are from newspapers and news websites - they are all reliable sources; they are some of the most widely-circulated newspapers and news websites in the world and (for the Greek ones) in Greece. If you have spotted something in particular please say so here so that it can be corrected ASAP. --Philly boy92 (talk) 23:46, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

The 6.9%GDP number for the deficit is meaningless and/or misleading(where did you get it from???);We're not through 2011 yet...;-)
Also, estimates-predictions are just guesswork(sometimes educated,sometimes totally wishful thinking).In example if from this(deficit for the 7 first months of 2011=15.5bil€) we extrapolate linearly for the whole 2011 we get 2011-deficit =15.5*12/7=26.571bil€.Now since a.26,571>24,193 (2010 deficit,see here) and b.GDP of 2011 is most probably gonna contract with respect to the one of 2010 (latest estimates say by more than 4.5%)then according to this estimate-extrapolation-prediction, the 2011 deficit is gonna be far greater then the one of 2010(10.5%GDP)...By these numbers and simple calculations it's gonna be at least 12,07% of GDP.... Again,this is only an estimatation-prediction-guesswork;we'll have to wait for the real numbers-data...Of course things look hardly great;these calculations (and many others) reflect this...Thanatos|talk 23:57, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, of course it is very difficult to predict what the country's deficit will be, for example, in 2011 (calculated as the average of all quarters) since we are in the middle of the year, and even harder to predict for 2012. However this is why the table says predictions. Where exactly does it say 6.9% for the deficit? Its the GDP growth which is -6.9%, and this is based on data from Q2 2010 and Q2 2011 (current) according to ELSTAT. --Philly boy92 (talk) 00:12, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

a.Quoting you688dim,emphasis mine :"The reliability of this article is questioned because some references are not reliable (for example are from sites and newspapers) and also some data are not updated, for example the deficit today is - 6.9 and not - 9.5 that the article predicts for 2011".Gdp growth != deficit...

b.The -9.5% of GDP figure presented in this article is a prediction of 2011 deficit, not growth.GDP growth up until recently and as in this article, was predicted to be -3.5% for 2011.Now it's been revised to at least -4.5%.

c.Also the -6.9% GDP growth that you're citing is not directly comparable to data here.It's not seasonally adjusted,again it's also not for the whole 2011 and it's not growth with respect to the quarter before(1st of 2011) but to the same(second) quarter of 2010...

P.S.Oops;My comments have been written as a critique to 688dim's inital comment,not yours.Though I must admit that being in a hurry,I had to edit this last one cause I had been under the impression,that 688dim was replying back to me...:)Thanatos|talk 06:21, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

More neutral sources, please!

I believe the people working on the article are doing a generally acceptable job, but I don't like the excessive use of skai.gr as a source. This website, and the newspaper Kathimerini (both controlled by the Alafouzos family of shipowners) may be serious-looking, but they can't be considered objective, as they support an extreme and fundamentalist Thatcherist-Reaganite-neoliberal agenda, and their articles are full of bias towards everything having to do with government and civil servants; basically, if something is state-owned, it's horribly inefficient, they say. So, I recommend stopping the use of this website as a source, or trying to counter-balance it by providing more diversified sources, sympathetic to more progresive/socialist positions, in order for the reader to hear the other side of the story. Also, the claims made by Jason Manolopoulos can't be taken as a gospel. I am particularly disappointed with the section based on Manolopoulos' book, full of gems like "the reality of economics" or "dynastic dysfunctional politics", and it should be removed Ανδρέας Κρυστάλλης (talk) 16:40, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

I beg to differ. Although I agree that we should not make overly use of Skai, it is far more objective than the other TV channels in Greece such as Mega and Ant1 and -obviously- ERT. In particular, would you be willing to point out the sections in the article that require attention? Although I personally use skai.gr, enet.gr and tanea.gr a lot, I try to use them only for background information and not the statistics themselves. --Philly boy92 (talk) 16:55, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Although I hardly watch TV,the few times I did and of these times the times that it was Skai that I was watching, yes it wasn't objective or anyway it didn't seem to me.It's just like kathimerini.gr(that I read a lot (among other news-sites)) being the flagship of pro-Mnemonion people.Having said that I don't think there is any objective channel in Greece whatever the political views...But more citing "info" by other conglomerates also would be very welcome(although they're also not objective in my view;note-question:who is objective???? ;-) )...

Now as far as Manolopoulos is concerned, imo his book is good but not great;and it's good only because very few people write about Greek stuff seriously.It's imo shallow;it's aspiring-promising in the beginning of its reading but then turns only a little better than trivial and at times simply wrong or at least ideological;just like,imo, Aristos Doxiades' stuff.They're simply focusing on mainly their preferred model of historical reality(and preferred ideological way to go in the future) oversimplifying things. Having said that, political dynasties reigning in Greece is a reality;I don't think we can argue with that...And anyway no I don't think Manolopoulos' book citations should be removed just like I don't think skai-kathimerini citations should be removed...
P.S.I don't like (read hate) the pro Troika neoliberals (in the european sense) versus against Troika socialists/progressives false dichotomy...It's like the Mnemonion vs Doom false dichotomy...;-)Thanatos|talk 21:41, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Extend x axis of graph? Seems a bit unclear at current state.

Would anyone be able to extend or increase the x axis of this graph so the years can be seen more clearly? . At the current state, it is a bit hard to look at analytically (especially the eurozone period) due to there being over 50 years. In comparison, this graph looks a lot clearer since it goes over only 11 years: . Kind regards. Calaka (talk) 05:21, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

The double standard is obvious

The double standard is obvious. When one of the "superior" countries has a problem, it's the "bankers". When a south european country has it, it's the "lazy pigs". That's some nazi shit right there. --195.74.250.209 (talk) 01:53, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, when a country like the United States, Britain, Australia, Japan, or Germany has a problem, it probably most likely "IS" the bankers and the regulations they are allowed to have and follow. When a country like Greece has a problem, well.., their banks never ranked high in the world so it probably is the workers or the citizens of that country. That's not Nazism, or hatred toward Greece, it may just be a fact, that's all. -And on another subject, Greece's current economy is in shambles but this article, entitled "Economy of Greece", doesn't seem to touch on that as much as I would have expected it to. That section on its current economy was no longer than the other sections. And the section about "Maritime Industry" doesn't belong here. That belongs under the article of Greece itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.251.112.134 (talk) 20:13, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

2010-2011 Greek Debt Crisis >> make new article?>_make_new_article?-2011-10-23T12:40:00.000Z">

It seems to me that the content on this page regarding Greece's 2010-2011 debt crisis is very extensive, and deserves its own article. I think it creates the wrong impression of Greece's economy, as it dominates the page. I have tried to introduce a number of new sections to the article (agriculture, telecommunications, shipping, tourism etc) and plan to add more (banking, construction industry, mining, and others), but I think that the debt section is far too long. Would anyone else agree that we should split it into its own article? --Philly boy92 (talk) 12:40, 23 October 2011 (UTC)>_make_new_article?"> >_make_new_article?">

I thought it already had its own article. ·ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ· 17:47, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

I think it deserves its own article, its a very extensive topic by itself. I also don't think there is any need for 40% of the page to be on Greece's current debt problems, its recentism. If other people don't think that a separate article on the Greek debt crisis is needed, I suggest most of the information on this be moved to the European sovereign debt crisis page, where it is more suited. --Philly boy92 (talk) 21:22, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

The debt is not 144%

Half of it has been wrote off, in part of it. --194.219.30.55 (talk) 22:51, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

It has not been yet written off;it's a plan for eventual writing off of (part of) it,nothing is final yet...Think of the last plan( July 21st).. ;-)

By the way I've edited the last relevant part.

It now reads:

"In the early hours of 27 October 2011, Eurozone leaders and the IMF came to an agreement with banks to accept a 50% write-off of (some part of) Greek debt, the equivalent of €100 billion. The aim of the haircut is to reduce Greece's debt to 120% of GDP by 2020."

Before my two edits the text could be easily (if not literally and clearly) (mis-)understood as stating that:

a.It's a plan for a 50% haircut of the total Greek Debt;it's not.Troika loans and Greek Bonds held by institutional lenders(think ECB) are excluded.

b.The plan is supposed to prevent till 2020 Greek debt from climbing to 120% of GDP and then get it reduced;it's not.The plan is supposed to reduce Greek debt to 120% of GDP by 2020 and after that, I guess, who knows.

P.S. "The Private Sector Involvement (PSI) has a vital role in establishing the sustainability of the Greek debt. Therefore we :welcome :the current discussion between Greece and its private investors to find a solution for a deeper PSI. Together with an :ambitious :reform programme for the Greek economy, the PSI should secure the decline of the Greek debt to GDP ratio with

an objective of reaching 120% by 2020. To this end we invite Greece, private investors and all parties concerned to develop a :voluntary bond exchange with a nominal discount of 50% on notional Greek debt held by private investors. The Euro zone Member :States would contribute to the PSI package up to 30 bn euro. On that basis, the official sector stands ready to provide additional programme financing of up to 100 bn euro until 2014, including the required recapitalisation of Greek banks. The new :programme should be agreed by the end of 2011 and the exchange of bonds should be implemented at the beginning of 2012. We call on

the IMF to continue to contribute to the financing of the new Greek programme."

Euro Summit Statement. See also Main Results of Euro Summit.

P.P.S.Have added both links above to the article as references.

Thanatos|talk 23:33, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Claims about Italy

This edit "This led to claims that italy had not actually met all five accession criteria"(emphasis mine) by 98.142.192.4 was of course not appropriate when taken as is. So it had been reverted to this "This led to claims that Greece had not actually met all five accession criteria" by Tgeairn as being factually erroneous. Well,I've made a "synthesis" of edits, having added references.Now it reads "This led to claims that Greece (as well as claims about other European countries like Italy) had not actually met all five accession criteria".Btw it has already been mentioned elsewere in the article(2010–2011 debt crisis section).So it's anything but wrong and also I don't think it's wrong covering it more and providing more references... P.S.Country M=Italy,at least that's what's most people say... ;-) Thanatos|talk 09:53, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

I've changed again the wording a bit to "This led to claims that Greece (similar claims have been made about other European countries like Italy) had not actually met all five accession criteria".Thanatos|talk 10:07, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Edit -ENERGY??

Burgas–Alexandroupoli pipeline, which will transport oil from Russia to Bulgaria, Greece and then Europe and North America, is an €800 million investment of which 23.5% comes from Greek companies and another 1% by the Greek state.

The Burgas–Alexandroupoli pipeline On 7 December 2011, Bulgarian government officially decided to terminate its participation in the project and proposed to the tripartite inter-governmental agreement to be terminated at mutual consent http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=134623

Remove that project is dead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.253.247.219 (talk) 19:30, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

I have deleted the relevant passage.Thanatos|talk 17:34, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Possible vandalism of page rating

I have noticed that for over a month now the article's rating has received 1 box for each of the categories, i.e. rating it as extremely POV and untrustworthy. I hardly think that the article in its present form deserves such a low rating, especially since it presents a much more spherical view of the Greek economy than it did a year ago. Is there any way we can see if there is any vandalism going on? If its not vandalism, would those people care to point out what is wrong in the article so it can be fixed? --Philly boy92 (talk) 15:50, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Good article nomination

The page's rating at the bottom of the page is 5 stars across all five categories, should we nominate the page as a "good article"? It's come a long way since last year, and I believe it portrays a holistic view of the Greek economy; something that most economy pages don't do. It certainly does not deserve either a "start" or "c class" rating in my opinion. Thoughts? --Philly boy92 (talk) 23:42, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Economy of Greece/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: 12george1 (talk · contribs) 02:19, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

The following is my issues with the article. I have quoted portions of the article and I recommend using ctrl + 4 to search for these quotations in the article:

• "The country's post-World War II development has largely been connected with the so-called Greek economic miracle." -
• "Recent research examines the gradual development" - Can you be a little more specific when you say "Recent research"? That could mean 1991, 2003, or 2012
• "Corruption, together with the associated issue of poor standards of tax collection, is widely regarded as both a key cause of the current troubles in the economy and a key hurdle in terms of overcoming the country's debt problem." -
• "had not actually met all five accession criteria, and the common perception that Greece entered the Eurozone through "falsified" deficit numbers." -
• "one of the highest rates in the world." -
• "(183.8 thousand tons) and pistachios (8 thousand tons) and ranked second in the production of rice (229.5 thousand tons) and olives (147.5 thousand tons), third in the production of figs (11 thousand tons) and almonds (44 thousand tons) , tomatoes (1.4 million tons) and watermelons (578.4 thousand tons) and fourth in the production of tobacco (22 thousand tons)." - It looks odd saying something like "183.8 thousand tons"; why not write 183,800 tons?
• "Japan is second with 197 million but Germany, which is ranked third," - I would add a coma between the reference and million, since it currently read "...with 197 million but Germany"
• "Tourism in the modern sense has only started to flourish in Greece in the years post-1950, although in ancient times, following the annexation of Greece by the Roman Empire, a great deal of wealthy Romans visited the country's centers of learning to further educate themselves. Since the 1960s and 1970s, the tourism sector saw a boost, which was further renewed when Greece hosted the 2004 Summer Olympics." -
• "Currently, Greece is ranked third in the European Union in the production of marble (over 920,000 tonnes) after Italy and Spain." - . Also, why is the unit tonnes spelled differently from tons as I quoted from above.
• "Greece does not have a flag carrier, but the country's airline industry is dominated by Olympic Air, the largest airline by number of destinations served, and Aegean Airlines, the largest airline by number of passengers carried." -
• "or 31.9% of the all state expenses." -

First of all, thank you for starting the review so promptly. Seeing the number of articles awaiting a review on the economics section, I was not expecting the procedure to start for weeks. I have attempted to address your aforementioned concerns, which I will henceforth address as "issue 1", "issue 2" etc for reasons of simplicity:

1 – I have added citations regarding the Greek Economic Miracle using this book on Greek economic history. I intend to find further sources, but my time is limited currently. I will most likely cite it further later tonight or tomorrow.

2 – "Recent research" changed to "Recent research from 2006"

3 and 4 – Due to time limitations, I will not be able to contribute to these two particular points presently as I was not the one who wrote them and my knowledge on this specific field is somewhat limited. I will investigate the matter and add references at a later point today or tomorrow.

5 – Is a reference necessary? That link redirects to a list of countries by debt as a percentage of GDP, which demostrates the validity of the point.

6 and 7 – Fixed as recommended.

8 – I rephrased this particular paragraph and added relevant citations on tourism.

9 – I must have forgotten to add the reference to that, I had the Eurostat page open when I wrote it :S I shall have to dig in the Eurostat database to find out what table I got that from and add the relevant citation. As for "tonnes" vs "tons", thank you for pointing it out. Ever since I moved to the UK my English has gotten ever more... English and I sometimes slip with the British orthography.

10 – I shall edit this later today.

11 – I have added the citation (budget 2012 page), but that particular statistic is not included in the budget itself. I calculated social expenditures percentage in relation to total state expenses (the budget) myself, would that be considered OR?

I don't think it would be OR--12george1 (talk) 04:00, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

--Philly boy92 (talk) 11:15, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

• Even after more than 3 weeks, nearly all of the above statements remained unsourced. Unfortunately, I feel this article cannot be passed due to the lack of citations. Sorry, but now I am going to fail this article. You may re-nominate this article after all issues have been fixed. Again, I am sorry that this had to happen, but I cannot consider this a GA if it does not meet the criteria, even three weeks after I gave it a review.--12george1 (talk) 01:16, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Foreign trade table

I don't understand the table in the section "Trade and investment". The caption says, imports and exports in 2008 are compared to 2011. Yet the table only seems to show 2011 figures. Also the numbers aren't consistent with the info box at the top right of the whole article. The box states, Greece's main export partners are "Germany 11.11%, Italy 11.05%, Cyprus 7.28%, Bulgaria 6.74%, US 4.95%, UK 4.4%, Turkey 4.23%". The table otoh says, main export partner is Denmark with a value that's about 9% of the total. 77.186.72.148 (talk) 19:48, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Undid revision 481146401 by Heptor

If you Heptor (or anyone else) want to delete the aforementioned sentence please, kindly explain to us to why it's irrelevant and content-free;with references please.
Greece has severe endemic-local economic problems but this doesn't mean that these problems are totally irrelevant to or isolated from the world outside Her.
As an example of the global crisis hitting Greece hard, see drastic decline of exports of goods (www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/exports) or tourism revenues-receipts (www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/international-tourism-receipts-us-dollar-wb-data.html) during the discussed period.
P.S.I have just discovered that for some strange and unknown reason, tradingeconomics.com is in wikipedia's blacklist-spamlist, therefore I had to delete the http part and so on not being able to create (real external) links;that's why the internet addresses are in the above form.
Thanatos|talk 16:38, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

The debt is right now 103% (after the PSI)

Source: http://www.presidency.gr/wp-content/uploads/SuskepshPolitikwnArxhgwn15.5.12.pdf (Prime Minister of Greece at the time of the PSI) --193.92.225.229 (talk) 00:41, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

It would be nice if we could have Venizelos here giving us references on what he was claiming in front of the President of the Republic! ;-)

Sorry but this claim is wrong.The latest Deltion Demosiou Chreous (Public Debt Bulletin for the anglophones out there) available is that of 12/2011 wherein one can read that total governement debt = 367.978bil€.Let's subtract from this number the debt relief (due to the bond swap) cited in this article, id est 106.5bil€:

we get 261.478bil€.According to this wikipedia article, the Greek GDP in 2011 was 215.088bil€.

261.478bil€/215.088bil€=121.568% of GDP.Note that this result is a mininum value first approximation of Greek Public Debt because Greek GDP has since fallen even more, because we may have had a haircut but we have also borrowed more since the end of 2011, because we're going to borrow more(for example for the planned bank recapitalisation;in fact I think we've already borrowed the funds for this) and so on and so forth;read the 2012 section of the Greek government-debt crisis article for more details;in essence Venizelos is imo lying and we're just gonna have to wait for the offical statistical-economic sources to present the official data on the official Greek Debt size.Until then we have the last official data and the various estimates to rely on...Thanatos|talk 20:48, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

For any present or future reference the March Deltion Demosiou Chreous(in english here) has been published;whence Central Government Debt=280.29244bil€... ;-) Thanatos|talk 18:30, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Edit!! Fitch Doesn't Have Outlook For Greece

Fitch Ratings-London-17 May 2012: Fitch Ratings has downgraded Greece's Long-term foreign and local currency Issuer Default Ratings (IDRs) to 'CCC' from 'B-'. The Short-term foreign currency IDR has also been downgraded to 'C' from 'B'.

http://www.fitchratings.com/creditdesk/press_releases/detail.cfm?pr_id=750064&cm_sp=homepage-_-FeaturedContentLink-_-Learn%20More — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.253.33.182 (talk) 00:02, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Greece has an economy anymore?

I'm surprised Greece still has a notable economy. I thought it was going to leave the euro or something? 192.12.88.41 (talk) 07:01, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

In view of the several past years, and the official outlook for the next couple of years, this article desperately needs updating, so I put the UPDATE tag. It is nonsense to glorify the Greek economy in this article. Crnorizec (talk) 23:37, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

What exactly needs to be updated? Precise information is always appreciated over vague generalization of the sort of "the Greek economy is being glorified". As a major contributor to the article I can tell you that the latest data is used, mostly from 2011-2012, but sometimes from 2009 (for some Eurostat data). --Philly boy92 (talk) 15:08, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Most of the quoted data and rankings in the article is from 2009 and it's fake (according to official reports and admissions of several subsequent Greek governments since 2009). Crnorizec (talk) 21:28, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Nonsense. This is one of the most rigorously up-to-date economy articles on Misplaced Pages. Unlike your sources, which are almost three years old. It is obvious that you are here to push a particular ethnic agenda. ·ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ· 23:00, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

The numbers quoted in the article are from 2009. My sources about the inaccuracy of those numbers are credible, and dated from the time when this fraud was discovered and publicly admitted by the Greek government. The only nonsense is your statement, and the "ethnic agenda" is in your head. Crnorizec (talk) 23:34, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Is it? Your sources refer specifically to the controversial 2009 debt and deficit statistics. The article discusses the controversy in considerable detail, including the revised figures, but also cites the latest ELSTAT and Eurostat data which are not in dispute. Therefore, your contention that "the numbers quoted in the article are from 2009" is deliberately misleading and factually incorrect. ·ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ· 00:21, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

The state of denial will take you nowhere. The article starts with outdated information about the ranking by GDP, and goes on in this manner. The article should start with the current situation, and the negative prospects. The economy of Greece is creating further social and political crisis, so the fact that it was 32nd in 2009 is irrelevant, and also by admission of the local politicians, inaccurate. Do I need to quote sources for each year when Greece cheated on economic data to make my point? Crnorizec (talk) 09:36, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

The GDP ranking is the latest provided by the World Bank, and it is for 2010. The statistics are updated in July of each year, and we will be using the new figures as soon as they are available. If you cannot bring yourself to stomach the data, perhaps you could contact the World Bank and let them know how upset you feel. Unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, the 2009 controversy concerns the deficit-to-GDP ratio and not the overall size of Greece's GDP. "Greece cheated" may constitute a convincing argument for German tabloid readers, but not here. It certainly does not justify the rejection of statistics published by major international organizations. As for your insistence that the article should start with the current situation—no, it shouldn't. WP:RECENT may be a good place for you to begin your reading. ·ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ· 11:10, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

The IMF (sister organization of WB) has a more recent ranking, from 2011: List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal). And also, a 5-year old crisis is not exactly recent, so WP:RECENT doesn't apply. It seems that New York Times is also reading the German tabloids? I will revisit this article and this conversation in a year or two, and have a good laugh. Meanwhile, I wish you to become less offensive and less obsessed with the greatness of the Greek economy. Crnorizec (talk) 13:57, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

It is unfortunate that you feel offended, but my point stands. You can laugh all you like, but we will continue to cite the relevant sources rather than the personal opinions of individual editors from neighboring countries who think they know better. For what it's worth, the most recent World Bank and IMF rankings are almost identical, at 34th and 35th respectively. Not so far off from the "irrelevant" 2009 data, as it turns out. ·ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ· 15:07, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Latest Public Debt data, June 2012 and Infobox

a.I've deleted the older pre PSI data from the Infobox;they are imo no more relevant,they have no place being inside the infobox.Outside the infobox and inside the article of course no argue that they are very significant.
b.I've also updated to latest debt data,id est of June 2012 (referenced using official Hellenic Republic's Public Debt Bulletin) but I've left the older %GDP estimates unchanged since there is no relevant reference-estimate based on the former that I know of.This creates a minor problem regarding references format; I've seperated them and placed them inside parantheses and small tag so that it's clear that they differ,that they refer to different numbers.
Does anyone object to the former (deletion of pre PSI data inside infobox) or the latter(format of references,id est being small,inside parentheses and in different places for Public Debt(absolute) and Public Debt(%GDP))?
P.S. On the latter I propose leaving , for the sake of clarity, the format as it is now until we have a newer more relevant %GDP estimate&reference but I wouldn't seriously object to changing back to normal format (normal size,outside parantheses,packed together) for the sake of homogeneity of appearance if other editors don't like my change.
P.P.S. I also propose updating the Public Debt Bulletin latest reference I've now created, every time a new one gets published (about every three months).
P.P.P.S. I've also now changed the average gross and net salaries inside the infobox.Their references now point to "serious" sources(OECD and Eurostat) but no longer to pdfs;instead they link to dynamic tables that have to be set manually in order to show the data on Greece and relevant variables.Note also that 1.elsewhere on OECD I've read that the 2011 data on Greece are to be revised,so the gross number may have perhaps to be considered as provisional and 2. as they are from different sources and about different years etc (OECD and Eurostat(from EU-SILC), 2011 and 2010 respectively) there might be a significant gap between the two cited values greater(I think) than the "real" social contributions etc.
Thanatos|talk 14:45, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit-warring about massive changes in economic data

I have reverted edits by an unresponsive single-purpose account (SPA) due to the massive changes in economic data and the removal of reliable sources and their replacement with unadjusted estimates from primary sources. The currency has also changed from euro to dollars. I find these changes unacceptable. Δρ.Κ.  19:12, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

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