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Military history: World War II Start‑class

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hi

Hello. Do you have an interest or comment on the Georgi Zhukov article? - Texture 18:32, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I do. Before assuming command of the defence of Moscow in late 1941, Zhukov organised the defence of Leningrad, stopping the German advance in the southern outskirts of the city. Maybe you want to insert a more elaborate reference to that?

Oh and by the way, Russia adopted the Zhukov Order and the Zhukov Medal in 1995, commemorating his 100th birthday.

--Kolt 12:30, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Zhukov didn't subdue 'a peasant revolt" but the Tambov rebellion: http://en.wikipedia.org/Tambov_rebellion

Russian topography and administration

Hello,

there was no Ugodski-Zavod raion in tsarist era, I was wrong, sorry. The tsarist-era raion was of larger scale than later soviet-era raion. - therefore is right: "born in ...Maloyaroslavets raion".

Does anyone know when the place (PGT) UGODSKI ZAVOD was renamed "ZHUKOVO" in Georgi K. Zhukov's honor ?

Thanks, WernerE (germanwiki), 25.2.05

Kursk

How does it happen that Battle of Kursk is not linked, nor the city even mentioned? Robert Service (NPR interview 2005 May) attributes his role at Kursk as the biggest reason for his veneration to this day in Russia, unless i got confused.
--Jerzy (t) 05:49, 2005 May 8 (UTC)

Zhukov was representative of Stavka (actually, Stalin's deputy), to coordinate the Fronts during the battle. The immediate major commanders are listed at the Battle of Kursk article. If one wants to attribute this piece of glory to Zhukov, he must not forget that all Soviet battles have been won by the Greatest Military Genius of All Times Generalissimo Stalin. Mikkalai 00:43, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Mistake in the article

The painting of Marshal Zhukov is tagged as "propaganda poster" In fact, this is a painting by the artist Konstantin Vassiliev (Константин Васильев), 1942 - 1976. You can see some of his paintings at http://rus-sky.com/vasilyev/

Michael.Kagalenko@gmail.com

Stalin submit to criticism?

Stalin's willingness to submit to criticism and listen to his generals eventually contributed to his success as a commander - whereas Hitler sacked any general who disagreed with him.

From what I remember of history class (which isn't much) Stalin executed most of his military commanders before the war, for some reason Zhukov survived Stalin's extermination. This meant Russia had precious few capable generals at the beginning of WWII, leading to massive Soviet losses.

But basically, did Stalin really take criticism at all from anyone? He executed more Russians than died in WWII! Perhaps someone who knows more about history than me could clear that up! --Fxer 01:01, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

• That's actually true. After the major failures of 1941 Stalin became quite receptive to the suggestions of his commanders. Unlike Hitler he did listen to their advice, allowed them to ovverrule him on occasions, and let them act independently. Instead of being judged on their opinions before the battle they were judged by the outcome. Of course the pressure to succeed was enormous, and the punishment for failure severe; however Stalin was at least smart enough not to think himself a military genius. He'd take the credit for the successes later anyway. 24.168.5.223

After the Nazis almost took Moscow and won WWII Stalin had no other option but to listen to his generals. Hitler on the other hand had taken France within a month, and held most of Europe by 1941. To him the Russian Victory at Battle of Moscow was simply luck and general winter. The battles of Stalingrad and Kursk would prove him dead wrong. But Stalin had no successes as a commander. His 'success' was realizing that others who grew up with the army and fought in actual battles should command instead of him. His contribution to victory was beating the Nazis at the 'propaganda war'.

Numbers

The following piece of text

for example at the Battle of Moscow in the winter of 1941 Zhukov lost 139,586 men, or 13.6% of his total strength - while a comparable operation under General Kozlov lost 39.4% of his men near Kerch. As the war went on, Zhukov's casualties were becoming even lower; while often incredibly high by any other country's standards, for the Soviet Union they were below average. At the Battle of Berlin Zhukov lost only 4.1% of his men, while Konev's forces, that faced weaker German opposition, lost 5%, and at the same time Rodion Malinovsky lost almost 8% at the Battle of Budapest

does not credit a source. I have never come across such numbers and they seem very suspicious to me. could the author of these staements provide her/his sources?--Compay 21:11, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I believe they are coming from the book "Russia and USSR in the Wars of XXth Century. Military Losses. Statistical Research" by candidate of sciences (military) full general G. F. Krivosheev. It was published in Russia in 2001 and so far remains the most thorough and reliable source for information on Soviet losses in WWII. It is available online in Russian here: http://www.soldat.ru/doc/casualties/book/.

The numbers are based on loss reports, which in the Red Army were submitted bi-weekly IIRC. Note that the balance method of losses estimation gives a total number of military losses that is approximately 16% higher than Krivosheev's data (10,107,500 total losses during WWII as opposed to 8,668,400 as calculated by Krivosheev). These two numbers are the "safe" lower and upper limits for Soviet military losses during WWII. The actual number of losses is somewhere between these two figures, but it's hard to tell where exactly.

As for operational losses, only Krivosheev's numbers are available. Purely theoretically, I would expect them to be more accurate towards the end of the war. Thus, the numbers of losses in Berlin operation are probably quite close to reality, while the losses for operations of 1941 are probably underreported. But this is just speculation, of course. Eleyvie 09:43, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Contradictory Text

According to the text on this page, Lavrentiy Beria is "one of the main organizers of Stalin's purges". This information directly contradicts the data on Lavrentiy Beria's page and does not relate to this article anyway. This statement should probably be removed I reckon?

P.S. Sorry, forgot to sign: it's me. :-) Eleyvie 09:49, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Grand Cross of the Bath

This article begins with the words "Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov, GCB", with the acronym GCB linking to the "Grand Cross of the Bath" page. As Zhukov was Russian, not British, and as he held many other honours in addition to this, I don't really think that it is appropriate to single out the fact that he had had this British honour conferred upon him. Comments? --The Thieving Gypsy 14:34, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Leningrad 1941

Article says: "Zhukov stopped the German advance in Leningrad's southern outskirts in the autumn of 1941."

This is not true as Zhukov arrived to Leningrad only on 13 September, 1941 and Germans did not have any plans to attack Leningrad. Already 5 september Hitler announced that objective at Leningrad was achieved and 6th September signed directive No. 35, ordering blockade of Leningrad (not a sturm!) to release airforce and mobile units for central direction.

Hitlers directive no.35 says: "On the Northeastern front, in conjunction with the Finnish Corps attacking on the Karelian peninsula, we must (after the capture of Schlusselburg) so surround the enemy forces fighting in the Leningrad area that by September 15th at the latest substantial units of the motorized forces and of 1st Air Fleet, especially VIII Air Corps. will be available for service on the Central front. Before this, efforts will be made to encircle Leningrad more closely, in particular in the east, and, should weather permit, a large-scale air attack on Leningrad will be carried out. It is particularly important in this connection to destroy the water supply."

http://www.adolfhitler.ws/lib/proc/direct35.html

Conclusion: Zhukov did not stop advance in Leningrad outskirts as Germans did not even plan to take Leningrad in Autumn 1941. Article is full of similar errors and needs serious cleanup.Sigitas 17:03, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Your conclusions are wrong, the germans wanted to capture leningrad but were unable to make progress because of the resistance zhukov and others put into place so hitler decided to starve out the city (Deng 19:24, 5 May 2006 (UTC))

Content of articles must be verifiable! Don't invent facts. When Zhukov arrived to Leningrad German had no plans / made no attempts to take the city. Zhukov did not stop advance of Germans at Leningrad because Germans stopped before arrival of Zhukov. Decision to blockade city was made before arrival of Zhukov. Check the dates: 7th September Hitler orders to encircle Leningrad and release units to other directions, 13th September Zhukov arrives to leningrad and assumes command. Sigitas 01:38, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

This is what happens when you only read limited information, you must read more it is the only way that you will learn here are 4 books and you should atleast read one of them if you want to know something.

1. The Siege of Leningrad, 1941-1944: 900 Days of Terror (2001) ISBN 0760309418 by David Glantz
2. Stumbling Colossus: The Red Army on the Eve of World War (1998) ISBN 0700608796 by David glantz
3. Russia's War: A History of the Soviet Effort: 1941-1945 ISBN 0140271694 by Richard Overy
4. The Court of the Red Tsar by Simon Sebag Montefiore

Without getting a bigger picture and with only scraps of information from the internet you can never understand the whole big picture and if you wish to know more then the only way to do so is to study more.

Give facts. Sigitas 09:38, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Still did not found any plans of advance or attempts of advance on Leningrad which Zhukov supposedly stopped? Sigitas 07:06, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

And you never will untill you start reading books written on the matter at hand(Deng 11:01, 9 May 2006 (UTC))

Could you please quote what Overy and Montefiore say what German advance of at leningrad and how Zhukov stopped? Give page number if possible please. Listing books is not good enough. Sigitas 11:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Page 99 in russia's war and you will see him calling him a genius as well and you will find out that he was sent to leningrad twice (Deng 14:05, 9 May 2006 (UTC))

sent twice to leningrad in 1941? You know well that there was no advance of germans at Leningrad during Zhukov's stay in Leningrad, otherwise you would quote info on this German exercise. Documents provided by me show that Germans planned to encircle city and move part of units to other directions and Zhukov failed to disrupt these German plans. Zhukov did not prevent Germans building fortified encirclement structures. If Zhukov believed that he must prepare for Germam sturm, he failed to understand German plans. Sigitas 14:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

What documents? Yes he was sent twice. The german plan was to destroy the red army, capture the whole european part and inslave the whole population. (Deng 18:43, 9 May 2006 (UTC))

No, Germans did not have such plan for september 13 - october 6, 1941, when Zhukov was in Leningrad. In september 1941 German plan was too keep Leningrad encircled as Hitler's directive No. 35 clearly says. Even zhukov in its memoirs (Воспоминания и размышления. М., 1969. С. 300) says that he reported to Stalin on 29 July 1941 that "Germans will not have strength to sturm Leningrad without additional forces". Additional forces never arrived. Sigitas 19:22, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Zhukov did not arrive to Leningrad yet when 4th Tank Group moved from Leningrad to Moscow. Zhukov was stopping advance of ZERO german tanks at Leningrad. Is it really worth mentioning? Sigitas 19:31, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

real danger of losing Leningrad was from July to 6th September. During this period in Leningrad were Molotov, Malenkov, Voroshilov, Zhdanov, Voznesenkiy, Kosygin, Rodionov, Shtykov, Popkov, Kuzntesov, Zhigarev, Voronin. These guys prepared Leningrad for defence, not Zhukov. Sigitas 19:49, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

“Жуков вылетел в Ленинград 9 сентября (в мемуарах он ошибочно указал 10-е число). На следующий день он вступил в командование войсками Ленинградского фронта, а Ворошилов, оставшись главкомом Северо-Западного направления, 11 сентября отбыл в Москву. В этот день последовал формальный приказ о назначении Жукова. Никто не знал тогда: ни Ворошилов, ни Жуков, ни Сталин, что еще 6 сентября Гитлер отдал директиву № 35, объявляющую Ленинград «второстепенным театром военных действий». Командующий группой армий «Север» фельдмаршал риттер Вильгельм фон Лееб должен был ограничиться блокадой города и не позднее 15 сентября передать группе армий «Центр» обе танковые группы и значительную часть авиации для предстоящего генерального наступления на Москву. Штурм Ленинграда потребовал бы больших жертв и значительного времени, которого у Гитлера в преддверии зимы уже не было. Он решил постараться захватить главную стратегическую цель — Москву, рассчитывая овладеть Ленинградом позднее, когда его защитники будут истощены блокадой. Правда, 12 сентября фюрер издал новую директиву, в развитие предыдущей, где указывалось, что «авиационные и танковые силы не должны перебрасываться до установления полной блокады. Поэтому определенная директивой № 35 дата переброски может быть отложена на несколько дней». Фактически переброска была отодвинута лишь до 17 сентября. Ранее этого срока все равно не было возможности начать переброску на московское направление соединений группы «Центр», задействованных на Украине. Ленинградскому фронту оставалось продержаться всего несколько дней, после чего натиск неприятеля, захватившего пригороды северной столицы, неизбежно должен был ослабеть.

Жуков, повторяю, не мог знать об этих директивах Гитлера и полагал, что главной целью группы армий «Север» по-прежнему остается захват города. Он сосредоточил основные силы для отражения немецкого наступления в районе Пулковских высот. 17 сентября, в день, когда немцы вывели из сражения за Ленинград основные силы 3-й и 4-й танковых групп и 8-й авиационный корпус, появился грозный жуковский приказ: «Военный Совет Ленинградского фронта приказывает объявить всему командному, политическому и рядовому составу, обороняющему указанный рубеж, что за оставление без письменного приказа военного совета фронта и армии указанного рубежа все командиры, политработники и бойцы подлежат немедленному расстрелу». По свидетельству маршала А.Е. Голованова, Жуков сам проводил в жизнь этот приказ — заставлял пулеметчиков стрелять по отходящим батальонам. Лееб продолжал наступление на ближних подступах к Ленинграду теперь уже только с целью отвлечь побольше сил Ленинградского фронта с любаньского направления, где им навстречу с целью прорыва блокады наступала 54-я армия маршала Кулика. Жуков же полагал, что враг все еще стремится овладеть городом, и концентрировал основные силы на обороне ближних подступов, а не на прорыве. Даже когда после 16 сентября под Ленинградом перестали действовать танковые соединения и резко упала активность люфтваффе, Георгий Константинович продолжал контратаковать в районе Пулково, а не у Невской Дубровки, навстречу 54-й армии. “ Sokolov “Unknown Zhukov” http://militera.lib.ru/research/sokolov2/index.html In short: according to the Hitler’s directive No. 35, already 17th September Germans moved most of their 3rd and 4th groups and 8th aviation corps. Few days ago von Leeb organized skirmishes in the border of the city only to distract forces of Leningrad Front from direction where Kulik’s 54th army came to break the blockade. Zhukov was fooled by Leeb and indeed concentrated counterattacks in wrong area, different from attacking 54th army. There was no real attempt to take city, Zhukov was fooled by von Leeb. Sigitas 20:50, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Term "neo-Stalinists"

This term is misapplied here when we talk about events of 1957. People who took power in 1957 - Nikita Khrushchev, Georgy Zhukov and Ivan Serov- were no lesser stalinists and they all were ruthless executors of Stalin's will each responsible for countless deaths of Stalin regime. Let's simply call oponents of Zhukov "opposition" or "Anti-Party Group" as they traditionally are called. Sigitas 17:34, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

"Anti-Party group" certainly seems to be the most common term in use. DMorpheus 15:24, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Not a "brilliant strategist"

Article says: "Zhukov was certainly a brilliant strategist".

Zhukov wasn't brilliant strategist. Catastrophe of Red Army in 1941 (when Zhukov was chief of the Red Army General Staff) is one of the most spectacular defeats in history. 34.000 tanks destroyed or captured, over 6000 aicraft destroyed, and +- 2 million casualties (killed, wounded and captured). These were the losses in 1941 of the Soviet Army. Let's remove this incorrect sentense. Sigitas 17:40, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

You asume that everything that went wrong in 1941 is his fault? You totally ignore that the doctrine and traning of the red army was obsolete in 1941. And in 1941 most of the soliders didnt have any small arms or ammunition. You ignore so much and blame everything on Zhukov. And then you ignore the rest of the war, it ended in 1945. Most historians say that he was brilliant. For example David Glantz, John Erickson and Richard Overy all say the same thing. They are all military historians and they know what they are talking about. Read the books they have written and you will find out for your self (Deng 10:04, 3 May 2006 (UTC))

"In 1941 most of the soliders didnt have any small arms or ammunition"? Prove it. And if it was the case why chief of the Red Army General Staff Zhukov did not supply them with ammo? Why chief of the Red Army General Staff did not train his army properly? It is strange position to attribute victories to Zhukov, but defeats to someone else. Yes, war did not end in 1941, just like Zhukov's defeats did not end in 1941. Did you hear about Rzhev meatgrinder? Opinion of few historians doesn't make him more brilliant. I don't mind formulation "David Glantz, John Erickson and Richard Overy consider Zhukov brilliant strategist despite many strategical setbacks experienced of Red Army under his command." Sigitas 12:19, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure Glantz would make an overall assessment of "brilliant", but since I have most of his books I will check. He is, after all, mostly responsible for uncovering Operation Mars (Rzhev) in the west. Frankly Zhukov's record is uneven, like many Generals. The article should reflect that.

Glantz's Stumbling Colossus demonstrates that the Red Army's readiness in June 1941 was appalling. It's not true that "most of the soldiers didn't have any small arms or ammunition" but it is correct that many units lacked any provision for resupply of even basic loads, and had a very low level of maintenance and training. The spring 1941 set of new recruits had just been taken into their units and had very little training by June.

The Red Army didn't have 34,000 tanks to lose in 1941. Their doctrine ("Deep Battle") was quite advanced, but thier training and readiness were horrible, so they couldn't execute it.

Finally it might be useful to take Rokossovski's views into consideration. He served both above Zhukov and under his command over the years. DMorpheus 14:53, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, my numbers were incorrect. According to the official data from the General staff of Russian Federation loses during 5 first months of war were: 4,000,000 POVs, 20 500 tanks, 17 900 military planes, 20 000 guns and 85% of military factories. We cannot call this tactical setback. We cannot call chief of the Red Army General Staff of annihilated army "brilliant strategist". What Zhukov did to avoid this catastrophe? Sigitas 16:27, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Legionas|Sigitas I think your problem is that you lack alot of information. First why the red army lost so much early in the war wasent Zhukov fault but Stalins. Basically everywhere you want to put Zhukov put Stalin and you will have a correct version. Stalin was the one who didnt supply the troops, stalin was the one that demanded counter attacks everywhere. And Zhukov could only work and use his brilliance to a certain levle because Stalin demanded to much and understod to little. And it is not the oppionon of Some historians but almost ALL historians. If you want to find out more then read more or study history at an university. And Rokossovski's could have an axe to grind with Zhukov, just as DMorpheus has an axe to grind with me. (Deng 15:37, 3 May 2006 (UTC))

As SuperDeng is in minority this time and he did not provide quotes of his favorite hiostorians saying that Zhukov was "brilliant startegist", I'm removing this sentence. As no one protests I also make two more corrections, see posts on this page above on Leningrad and "stalinists". Sigitas 17:34, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

You are blameing the wrong person. Zhukov didnt give the orders Stalin did. Zhukov could only advice Stalin. During the early part of the war Stalin wouldnt listen to anyone and EVERYONE was afraid of Stalin. It was Stalin who refused to believe that the germans would attack and also gave orders which forbade people from strikeing back when the germns launched their invasion. Stalin gave all the orders during the first part of the war and everyone had to follow them. Zhukov was the only one brave enough to argue with Stalin and tell him how wrong he was. In Russia's War by Richard Overy you can see that Zhukov was the only one who argued with Stalin the rest of the Stavka were just quiet. You must understand that Stalin ruled the Soviet Union with an iron hand and he was the undisputed ruler, his words were the law. And the majority of the faliures that befell the red army early in the war was almost completly Stalins fault. Stalin would demand counter attacks everywhere, no matter if the troops had ammo, weapons or any form of equipment. Only when Stalin stoped giving his idiotic orders and released his grip on the military was the red army able to fight an equall battle. Everything you believe is Zhukovs fault is in fact Stalins fault becuase he was the one that gave all the idotic orders during the first part of the war. He was the one who pushed the troops into battle without equipment. Stalin is to blame not Zhukov. The fact that Stalin would listen to Zhukov and did not kill him for argueing with him shows without a shadow of a doubt that Zhukov was brilliant. Because if even Stalin can understand that someone is smart then he must really be smart. And when Zhukov was allowed to give his orders and fight without any interferance from Stalin there you can see victory. But when Stalin interfered there you can see defeat. (Deng 18:07, 5 May 2006 (UTC))

You wrote: Stalin gave all the orders during the first part of the war and everyone had to follow them. If this is true then on what basis can you rate Zhukov as "brilliant"? The guy giving the orders gets the credit and the blame. For example, you credit Zhukov's three-week command of the Leningrad sector with saving the city. But according to you Stalin was giving all the orders, so isn't it Stalin who saved Leningrad? Zhukov's role is meaningless if Stalin was giving all the orders....he might as well have been a clerk. How is it "brilliant" to follow the orders of an untrained dictator? You can't have it both ways - either Zhukov and other generals had some autonomy and could command (at least within their sphere of authority) or it was Stalin giving all the orders. You also wrote "....when Zhukov was allowed to give his orders and fight without any interferance from Stalin there you can see victory. But when Stalin interfered there you can see defeat." That is a very convenient, but false formulation.

The truth is rather obvious: commanders of the Red Army indeed had *some* autonomy and the better ones were able to achieve successes, often in spite of Stalin. The worst ones failed whether Stalin was breathing down their necks or not. People like Kulik, Voroshilov, etc. didn't need Stalin to help them fail.

You also wrote "The fact that Stalin would listen to Zhukov and did not kill him for argueing with him shows without a shadow of a doubt that Zhukov was brilliant." This is laughable. A more likely explanation is that Stalin needed Zhukov, and both men knew it. There were plenty of brilliant people who did not survive an argument with Stalin, so "not being killed" by Stalin is hardly evidence of brilliance. Trotsky was an intellectual giant compared with either of them, and it cost him his life.

Anyway, all of these 'brilliant' statements are mere POV or original research until a historian is quoted giving this assessment. Sigitas was right; until there is a reputable historian providing the assessment, it is original research and does not belong here.

Regarding Rokossovski, of course he may have had an axe to grind. So does everyone else. The point is to understand who has what axe and how it affects their writing. Zhukov's memoirs were published in the Krushchev era, when Stalin's role in WW2 was being minimized. Of course they will say that Zhukov stood up to Stalin. If he had written that in 1947 he would have never been published. DMorpheus 18:50, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

An historian has been quoted Richard Overy In Russia's War

Yes the generals had some command within their sphere of authority but that dosent matter when the man in charge gives idiotic orders and impossible tasks. And that Stalin didnt kill Zhukov was proof of Zhukovs brilliance, after the war many heads would roll but Stalin didnt kill Zhukov he only demoted him. Trotsky was a rival and Stalin wanted all the power and didnt want to share anything with anyone. Anyone being a threat to Stalin real or imaginative was killed. Only Zhukov was left to live. Kulik and Voroshilov were not Zhukov. Zhukov did need help to fail but he didnt need help to win. When you are talking about Zhukov then this line is 100% correct that when Zhukov was allowed to give his orders and fight without any interferance from Stalin there you can see victory But when Stalin interfered there you can see defeat. We are not talking about Kulik, Voroshilov or any person but only Zhukov when it comes to Zhukov it is clear that the less Stalin interfered the better the red army did.

And not only I but Richard Overy credits Zhukov with saveing Leningrad and so does Simon Sebag Montefiore and many other historians as well(Deng 19:15, 5 May 2006 (UTC))

I have Overy's Russia's War in my hands right now and quote from page 100: "The important contribution Zhukov made was not strategic insight, much of which emanated from the General staff rather than from any one individual, but his willingness to represent the military voice at the highest level so that those strategic ideas could be nourished." Clearly Overy is not impressed with Zhukov's strategical abilities. Sigitas 15:27, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

That is one of the most absurd things I have ever read; completely uncontaminated by any logic at all. DMorpheus 21:35, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

After the war Zhukov was on trial for looting and stealing in Germany. He was only left alive because of Stalin softness. Sigitas 07:09, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Again you ignore so much and miss the big picture. One of the main reasons the germans invaded was that they wanted to inslave the Soviet Union and develop the economical and industrial potential on the back of russian slave labour. You ignore the fact that the germans looted much much more then Zhukov, you ignore that the germans built concentration camps and that by the time Zhukov had reached german borders that around 20 million soviets were dead. So you excpect that after the germans invaded, tried to inslave the soviets and had built concentration camps that Zhukov should be nice to the germans and give them hugs and kisses? (Deng 11:00, 9 May 2006 (UTC))

Your speculations are irrelevant here. No matter what Germans did, Stalin did not approve his officers looting occupied countries and many thiefs like Zhukov were sentenced. Sigitas 13:09, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Speculations, it is you who speculate because you havent read enough books you must read more or you will never learn anything. "Stalin did not approve his officers looting occupied countries and many thiefs like Zhukov were sentenced" and that is completly wrong but you will never find out why if you keep on stiking your head in the sand and refuse to read anything (Deng 14:07, 9 May 2006 (UTC))

this is just personal attack without any informational value for the article Sigitas 14:57, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

No it is not a personal attack if you want to learn more you must read more. That is my opinion if a person wishes to learn more then that person must read more. (Deng 18:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC))

Whatever. Content must be verifiable. Historians like Sokolov (Неизвестный Жуков: портрет без ретуши в зеркале эпохи) and Suvorov do not think that Zhukov was great general and Zhukov often lied to look better. Sigitas 18:44, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Books, year of publication and page numbers please (Deng 18:46, 9 May 2006 (UTC))

Соколов Б.В. Неизвестный Жуков: портрет без ретуши в зеркале эпохи. — Мн.: Родиола-плюс, 2000 — 608 с. («Мир в войнах»). ISBN 985-448-036-4. Тираж 15000 экз.

Sokolov for example argues that Zhukov lied dismissing his own fault in destroying 5th and 33rd armies in 1942

http://militera.lib.ru/research/sokolov2/index.html

Sokolov also points that Zhukov lied about planning of operations in 1941, and that Zhukov was initiator of unsuccessful counterattacks: http://militera.lib.ru/research/sokolov2/07.html

Suvorov in his books “Take my words back” and “Shadow of victory” did not say a good word about Zhukov and did not find one victory of Zhukov while he finds Zhukov's memoirs having no relationship with reality. http://www.suvorov.com/books/ten-pobedy/ http://www.suvorov.com/books/slova-obratno/

First of all, please don't go and quote Suvorov, as it is clearly considered as Original Research as most historians do not recognize his works (hence beware WP:NOR). Secondly, as some people previously said, one can't blame Zhukov for every disaster on Eastern Front and lack of preparation. Thirly, battles like Khalkhin Gol and defense of Leningrad ARE certainly brilliant successes, not counting battle of Berlin and a few others. Sure, Zhukov had one stinging defeat (operation Mars), but heh, who did not? Overall, Zhukov had several important victories.

The main reproach that could be addressed to Zhukov is his complete disregard for human lives. But that has not much to do with strategy. When you play chess and you sacrifice a piece to gain considerable tactical advantage, are you a crappy strategist? One of WWII's characteristics was a complete disregard for human lives, both military and civilian, on both sides. Let's not load all this on Zhukov... -- Grafikm 19:44, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

: WP:NOR speaks about original research of wikipedians not original research of professional historians. Sigitas 19:57, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

: BS. Quoting WP:NOR : "Original research is a term used on Misplaced Pages to refer to material added to articles by Misplaced Pages editors that has not been published already by a reputable source." Suvorov is NOT a reputable source. "An edit counts as original research if it introduces original ideas".

: Publishing an article based on a book of a revisionnist would be OR, regardless of the wikipedian who edited the article. -- Grafikm 22:26, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

This is just a rule you invented yourself. There is no such rule in Misplaced Pages. Sigitas 15:27, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

You get your info from the internet ANYONE can write ANYTHING on the internet and a book written in russian there is no way I can check that. But the books by Richard Overy And John Erickson both well known british professors say the same thing which is that he was brilliant (Deng 22:14, 9 May 2006 (UTC))

Deng, it is your own problem that you don't know languages. There are, however, wikipedians here who know Russian . Sources in other languages are perfectly valid.

Grafikm, Suvorov is reputable secondary source, even if you personally don't like him and this source is OK according to according to What counts as a reputablepublication . He always provide primary sources. Revisionist or not, it is facts that matter. "The prohibition against original research limits the possibility of an editor presenting his or her own point of view in an article. Moreover, by reinforcing the importance of including verifiable research produced by others, this policy promotes the inclusion of multiple points of view in an article. Consequently, this policy reinforces our neutral point of view policy." Declaring that Zhukov is brilliant despite so great military defeats is not neutral - it's bias. This brilliance stuff is not verifiable, if "brilliant strategitian" blindly followed orders of others. Sigitas 15:46, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Huh, at first I thought you were a harmless troll, but now I begin to see where your opinions lead to... Do you share the ideas of Holocaust Denial? If you do, please take care. --Ghirla 16:46, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Definition of a reputable source: "Ask yourself some questions when you are evaluating a publication. Is it openly partisan?". Yes, Suvorov is openly partizan and his works are not recognized by his peers. CRLF, next paragraph. -- Grafikm 16:55, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

"Partisan - a firm adherent to a party , faction, cause, or person; especially : one exhibiting blind, prejudiced, and unreasoning allegiance." Merriam Webster. I see many uncritical fans of Zhukov here, but Suvorov is not one. Suvorov is not academical writer, and he has no need for academical peer reviews. Misplaced Pages article on Viktor Suvorov shows that many Russian historians share his ideas (V.D.Danilov, V.A.Nevezhin, Meltiukhov and B.V. Sokolov). Sigitas 10:09, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

NO he was brilliant

Ok generally speaking when Zhukov was put in charge of Leningrad his main priority was to sort the mess left by Voroshilov, whose main strategy was to abandon the city and focus on street fighting. In such circumstances Zhukov had to take desperate actions against the advancing armies. When a frantic commander is trying to organise troops and at the same time hold back the enemy to a city knowing that his failure to do so would cost his life. Yes he did send troops into the fray to buy TIME, Eventually he was successful in grouping the troops to a point where the enemy lost the initiative, build good defences and then left it to Govorov, as Zhukov was called to more important battles elsewhere. --Kuban Cossack 19:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

This is just fantasies. Can we see this Voroshilov's plan to anbandon city? Sigitas 20:00, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Sure find it here about september 1941 there comes a slide which says:

8 Сентебря Немцы вышли к южному берегу Ладожского озера. Одновременно с севера на город наступали Финские войска. На следующий день уже передовые немецкие части уже вели бои на городских окраинах. Командующий Ленинградским фронтом маршал Ворошилов и партийное руководство Ленинграда впали в состояние, близкое к паническому и отдавали истериченые приказы - например о вооружения питерских рабочих пиками (которые получили призрительное произвище <<копья Ворошилова>>) и финскими ножами. После того как Ворошилов приказал готовить к уничтожению корабли Балтийского флота, Сталин отсранил его от должности командующем фронтом и земенил его генаралом армии Жуковым.

Новый командующий немедленно запретил подготовку к сдаче Ленинграда, приказал перебросить войска с Карельского перешейка и помощью флота ораганизовать плотный заградительный артилирийский огонь на опасных направлениях. Командирам всех уровней Жуков объевил, что за любое отступления войск со ввереных им участках они понесут персональную ответственность вплоть до расстрела. В результате этих мер немецкое наступления на Ленинград захлебнулось и 18 сентебря фронт стабилизировался.--Kuban Cossack 20:20, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

There is nothing in this text showing that adminitration of Leningrad was planing to abandon city and this text is not a document. Sigitas 15:13, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

In fact now it has an english version and the text is official chronology. I would trust it rather than your claims--Kuban Cossack 18:26, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not interestested in your unreferenced slides. It's not a valid source for encyclopedia. Sigitas 21:36, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Those slides are official if in doubt you can find references. --Kuban Cossack 13:42, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Whatever. It is not a purpose of Misplaced Pages to represent official views of Russian government. Sigitas 14:16, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Please watch your tone, negligince is a very bad human quality...and so far you are yet to provide a counterreference that this did not happen.--Kuban Cossack 16:12, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I gave my counterreference yesterday: ]. While on September 17-18 Zhukov was "saving" Leningrad , main German forces from Leningrad were far on their way to Moscow according to their plans. No one tried to take Leningrad. There were no plans and no attempts to take Leningrad during Zhukov's presence in leningrad. The only orders after September 5 from Hitler were to arrange blockade of Leningrad and move to Moscow. No one provided any german plans to take the city during Zhukov's stay in Leningrad. If I'm wrong please give reference to such order of Hitler or von Leeb.Sigitas 16:29, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Leningrad has been explained, look in real books made by real people and you will see. Many books have been mentioned. (Deng 17:56, 18 May 2006 (UTC))

Again you ignore what the germans did. The germans came to inslave the soviets they came to exterminate the Soviets. The Germans looted on a huge scale. So after the germans had come to inslave and exterminate the Soviets according to you hte soviets should have given them hugs and kisses? The soviets did not build extermination camps they did not inslave the germans but if they had done that would have only equalled exactly what the germans did. You ignore what the germans did and then you call Zhukov a thief. But in war the victor always takes from the defeated party. The americans and british did the same thing. And you ignore that the Germans tried to inslave and exterminate the soviets and that the germans lotted on a huge scale not only did they want to inslave and exterminate the soviets they also stole everything they could get their hands on but you ignore all of that only see what the Soviets did. with your logic Zhukov is also a murder and a killer since he did give orders to kill many people. So why dont you start this article and every article about any military leader that XXXXX was a murder and a killer he gave orders to kill people. (Deng 17:08, 22 May 2006 (UTC))

Looting

I think we could add interesting section about Zhukov's looting in Germany. Sigitas 17:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

• Listen, dude, if you want to add or remove something you have to reach consensus with other users. Voting is crucial, so please follow the Misplaced Pages guidelines before pushing your controversial agenda. KNewman 06:09, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

There is nothing controversial here, just plain facts. Sigitas 15:12, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Except that you ignore what the germans did. That the Germans them selves wanted to inslave the whole of the Soviet Union and that the Germans them selves looted on a much larger scale. (Deng 17:53, 18 May 2006 (UTC))

We are writing an article about Zhukov not Germans. Really controversial claim is about brilliant strategist and historians and wikipedians do not have consensus here. Zhukov is thief and as I see no one is contesting this fact, so why not include in article? Sigitas 20:31, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Would please provide refernces for your claims that Zhukov is thief (from credible sources please, no nationalist BS.) --Kuban Cossack 20:36, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

My secondary source - Sokolov's 'Unknown Zhukov' . Boris Sokolov is doctor of history, professor at Moscow State University of Social Sciences. Sokolov quotes report of Bulganin (1946) on arrested furniture, report of Abakumov on results of search (10.1.1948). Sigitas 21:28, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Do not know if Suvorov-Rezun is a credible source, but I do not remeber somebody challenged the facts there:

http://militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov7/20.html , http://militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov7/21.html .

This book is one of the biggest collections of BS existing. Not that all events it describes are false, but their analysis is flawed. The passage on atomic bomb alone is enough to make a diagnosis... -- Grafikm 08:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Anyone can make an Internet page the fact that real books made by real professors say the exact opposite of what you say proves that you have some Agenda against Zhukov (Deng 22:29, 18 May 2006 (UTC))

So now I invented Sokolov? If you are so paranoid you can buy hardcopies of his books . He is an author of 30 monographies. He is professor at Moscow State University of Social sciences, dept of social anthropology Sigitas 09:43, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

This has been explained time and time again. Not only do you link to things that no one can check because it is not in english. You also use a source that is highly doubtful. The fact that The British Professors that have all done real research into the matter Richard Overy, John Erickson and academics such as Simon Sebag Montefiore and David Glantz all say the exact opposite of what you say more then enough provesthe case. (Deng 09:21, 20 May 2006 (UTC))

It is misleading to believe that foreign historians have better understanding of events in Russia than Russians themselves. How many of historians you named know Russian language? Sources in all languages are valid, many wikipedians know Russian and can verify sources. Which of British historians denies that Zhukov was stealing in Germany? Sigitas 12:40, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

It is the way you put it in You totally ignore that the germans came to inslave the Soviets, you ignore that the nazies themselves looted on a much larger scale, you ignore that the germans built extermination camps and you ignore that in all wars people have always taken from the part that lost. You ignore everything in your campaign against Zhukov. And this is english wiki that needs to be sources with english sources. And all of the proffesors and academics above know russian and/or have goten wast amount of material translated. (Deng 13:42, 20 May 2006 (UTC))

There is no such requirement to provide only English references. Stop inventing your rules. Sigitas 15:19, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Again you ignore everything i have written. Why do you ignore what the germans did, that they came to inslave the soivets that there plan was to develop the soivet union on the back of russian slave labour. That the built extermination camps and that they looted on a much larger scale then anything that zhukov did. And that in all wars the victor takes from the defeated party. You can read more about useing sources here http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Verifiability (Deng 20:54, 20 May 2006 (UTC))

See, this Verifiability article says sources in foreign languages are OK. 22:19, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Again you totally ignore what the germans did that they came to inslave the soivets that there plan was to develop the soivet union on the back of russian slave labour. That the built extermination camps and that they looted on a much larger scale then anything that zhukov did. And that in all wars the victor takes from the defeated party. And how much longer will you refuse to talk about what the germans did?(Deng 12:46, 21 May 2006 (UTC))

I ignore your appologies for Zhukov's actions, because moral speculations are not relevant here. We write encyclopedia and facts are important not your moral standpoint. Let readers decide is looting good or bad from moral view. looting episode is important because it explains why Zhukov was so silent and obedient until Stalin's death - Stalin could execute him any moment for his looting in Germany. Sigitas 09:34, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Your conclusions are wrong, Stalin didnt kill Zhukov because he knew what Zhukov had done on the field and that he was a very tallented if not the most tallented officer in the whole of the red army. And you still ignore the fact that the germans came to inslave and exterminate the soviets. And useing sources that no one can check is in clear violation with wkik Verifiability. English-language sources should be given whenever possible, and should always be used in preference to foreign-language sources, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly. The burden of evidence lies with the editors who have made an edit or wish an edit to remain. Editors should therefore provide references. If an article topic has no reputable, reliable, third-party sources, Misplaced Pages should not have an article on that topic. (Deng 16:05, 22 May 2006 (UTC))

I don't mind you providing English sources on Zhukov's looting. You are free to replace Russian sources with English ones any time. My sources can by verified by any wikipedian who knows Russian. Sigitas 16:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Still you ignore what the germans did and still you ignore what was considered to be fair bounty in war. And Your sources do NOT fulfill the part that not only are they internet sources that can be made by anyone they are also in a foregin language.(Deng 16:29, 22 May 2006 (UTC))

If you are so keen to replace my sources on Zhukov's looting I can even recommend you The Fall of Berlin: 1945 By Antony Beevor . Go ahead. I will not comment requirements you invented anymore. Sigitas 16:34, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Again you ignore what real professors have said and you still keep on ignoreing what the germans said. Prof John Ericksson and Richard Overy and Academics such as David Glantz and Simon Sebag Montefiore all say the exact opposite of what you are saying. You draw your facts from home made interet pages and people who are extremly contraversial to say the very least. This has been discussed nad explaind over and over and over again and you still keep on ignoreing what the germans did and what the germans had for plans and your continued faliure to confirm what the germans did and what they had for plans speaks volumes of what you want to achive. (Deng 16:49, 22 May 2006 (UTC))

Do you say that I faked site of Moscow State University of Social Sciences and Sokolov is not a real professor? If you prefer hardcopy , you can buy hardcopy: Соколов Б.В. Неизвестный Жуков: портрет без ретуши в зеркале эпохи. — Мн.: Родиола-плюс, 2000 — 608 с. («Мир в войнах»). ISBN 985-448-036-4. Тираж 15000 экз. I'm not ignoring any of guys you named, you just forgot to provide counterreferences. So, which one British historian denies that Zhukov was stealing in Germany? Sigitas 16:58, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Again you ignore what the germans did. The germans came to inslave the soviets they came to exterminate the Soviets. The Germans looted on a huge scale. So after the germans had come to inslave and exterminate the Soviets according to you the soviets should have given them hugs and kisses? The soviets did not build extermination camps they did not inslave the germans but if they had done that would have only equalled exactly what the germans did. You ignore what the germans did and then you call Zhukov a thief. But in war the victor always takes from the defeated party. The americans and british did the same thing. And you ignore that the Germans tried to inslave and exterminate the soviets and that the germans lotted on a huge scale not only did they want to inslave and exterminate the soviets they also stole everything they could get their hands on but you ignore all of that only see what the Soviets did. with your logic Zhukov is also a murder and a killer since he did give orders to kill many people. So why dont you start this article and every article about any military leader that XXXXX was a murder and a killer he gave orders to kill people. (Deng 17:08, 22 May 2006 (UTC))

Order 4976: "Kill all families of captured soldiers"

Zhukov's order No. 4976 from 28 September 1941 must be mentioned as a best example of Zhukov's brutality. 28 September 1941 Zhukov sent ciphered order No. 4976 to commanders of Leningrad Front and Baltic Navy to announce that families of soldiers captured by Germans will be shot and returned prisoners will also be shot.

"Вот шифрограмма № 4976, посланная 28 сентября 1941 года командующим Ленинградским фронтом Жуковым армиям фронта и Балтийскому флоту: «Разъяснить всему личному составу, что все семьи сдавшихся врагу будут расстреляны и по возвращении из плена они также будут все расстреляны».

(РГАСПИ, ф. 83 (Фонд Г.М. Маленкова), оп. 1, д. 18, л.) 18-19. Sigitas 18:12, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

More information from home made internet pages that no one can check. Provide real references written in real books in english or go to the Russian wiki and write there. but in the english wiki use english references and not home made references that anyone can make from the internet. (Deng 20:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC))

Contrary to Overy who mostly quotes secondary British sources, I gave even address where you can read original document in Russian state archives (Российский государственный архив социально-политической истории - Russian State Archive of Socio-Political History). Sigitas 20:48, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

This proves how little you know. Richard Overy went into the Soviet archives and studied them for many years, your comments prove how little you actually know. This is 100% wrong "Contrary to Overy who mostly quotes secondary British sources" and proves once and for all that you pull your facts out of thin air and use any home made internet page to support your agenda.(Deng 02:46, 23 May 2006 (UTC))

Don't worry, one day Britain also will have modern WW2 historiography. It is only natural that British historiography lags behind Russian as Brits do not know language and don't have that easy access to newly published ww2 documents. Sigitas 13:22, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

First of all almost all Historians in the world say the exact opposite of what you say in all matters, Overy is just one out of a million. You have been proven wrong in everything you have said and the only person who you use as a reference is the super anti soviet bias Viktor Suvorov. The facts remain almost everything you have wanted to add has been wrong or extremly twisted out of context. (Deng 13:57, 25 May 2006 (UTC))

1. I did not see Overy and other million historians saying that there was no order 4976. 2. I'm using Sokolov, not Suvorov, as my main reference. Order 4976 was discovered in archives only recently, it cannot be in old book of Overy. Sigitas 14:03, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

And who does Sokolov base his info on Could it be Suvorov ;)? And as always you ignore the bigger picture, what was stalins order NO 270. And old books before the fall of the Union are where Suvorov books fit in, and most books written after that period more importantly written after 2000 Say and prove that you are wrong in everything you do. You twist and turn reality to fit your own twisted views. Which has been proven so many times here before in what you have tried to get into the article and what you have tried to remove. And as always you ignore everything like you ignored what the germans did and call Zhukov a thief you also ignore that Stalin was in charge of the army and that it was under him that the Red Army failed and it was only when Zhukov got to atleast to give advice that things started to improve and most importantly you ignore Stalins NO 270 in august 1941 which condemned all captured soviet soldiers as traitors to the motherland and penalized their families. And the fact remains that your fantsy rewrite of the english internet links proves that what ever you see or how you see it has almost nothing in commen with what the facts actually say. As always you take out bits of information one word here another word there then add them togheter so that the only thing in commen they have with the origianl text is perhaps "the" and "and" everything else is just your fantasy rewrite. (Deng 15:22, 25 May 2006 (UTC))

Stalin's order No. 270 was really humane compared to Zhukov's order. Stalin's order 270 did not order to shoot deserters or their families. Indeed we can iclude order 270 to contrast brutality of Zhukov to softness of Stalin. Sigitas 15:55, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

No Stalins order is exactly as I said it, softness of stalin that must be the first time those words have ever been used in the same sentance, which proves once again that you are on a one man mission to miscredit zhukov. And you still ignore what the germans did as always (Deng 17:18, 25 May 2006 (UTC))

Awards

It is interesting that Zhukov in 1921 received his first order (Order of the Battle Red Banner) for brutal extermination of poorly armed non-communist peasants rebels in Tambov. Sigitas 13:59, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

the only intresting thing is that Zhukov defended Moscow against the Germans with only 90,000 men against a few million and was able to stop a few million germans with only 90K men that is the only intressting. (Deng 15:24, 25 May 2006 (UTC))

I don't think fellow wikipedians agree with you that we should delete everything in this article except Moscow campaign Sigitas 15:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Trivia - Joseph Brodsky

Nobel Laureate Joseph Brodsky’s poem ‘’На смерть Жукова’’ (On the Death of Zhukov) is regarded by critics as one of the best poems on the war written by an author of the post-Second World War generation and shoulkd be included in article. Here is the text of this poem:

     На смерть Жукова

    Вижу колонны замерших звуков,
    гроб на лафете, лошади круп.
    Ветер сюда не доносит мне звуков
    русских военных плачущих труб.
    Вижу в регалиях убранный труп:
    в смерть уезжает пламенный Жуков.

    Воин, пред коим многие пали
    стены, хоть меч был вражьих тупей,
    блеском маневра о Ганнибале
    напоминавший средь волжских степей.
    Кончивший дни свои глухо в опале,
    как Велизарий или Помпей.

    Сколько он пролил крови солдатской
    в землю чужую! Что ж, горевал?
    Вспомнил ли их, умирающий в штатской
    белой кровати? Полный провал.
    Что он ответит, встретившись в адской
    области с ними? "Я воевал".

    К правому делу Жуков десницы
    больше уже не приложит в бою.
    Спи! У истории русской страницы
    хватит для тех, кто в пехотном строю
    смело входили в чужие столицы,
    но возвращались в страхе в свою.

    Маршал! поглотит алчная Лета
    эти слова и твои прахоря.
    Все же, прими их -- жалкая лепта
    родину спасшему, вслух говоря.
    Бей, барабан, и, военная флейта,
    громко свисти на манер снегиря.

            1974

Sigitas 15:14, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

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