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Audit Subcommittee appointments (2013): Invitation to comment on candidates

Original announcement

• Is this a !vote, or simply questions that the arbitration committee uses to evaluate candidates? In other words, who makes the actual decisions on who is or is not on the sub-committee? — Ched :  ?  10:54, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
  • The community can comment, but the Committee makes the final decision. The way I see it, there is a requirement on Meta that all candidates for CU/OS must have 70% or more of the community's support, or must be selected by the Arbitration Committee, in order for stewards to grant the CU/OS rights. As past CU/OS candidates have found it difficult to get 70% support and positions had gone unfilled in the past, the process was shifted to the Arbitration Committee, and I assume that it would be similar for AUSC elections. I suppose elections could be held and then the winners could then be "selected" by the Arbitration Committee, but that seems like an end-run around the policies on Meta and the stewards might not like that. --Rschen7754 11:12, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Ahhhh ... Thank you for the clarification. Much appreciated. — Ched :  ?  11:15, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Request for information

Can arbs or clerks please assist in filling in User:Werieth/sandbox with the related terms for those arbs who are currently sitting? Ive already pulled everything from Misplaced Pages:Arbitration_Committee/History#Former_members but I am just missing the current members. Werieth (talk) 16:40, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

That information can be found using Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/History and {{ArbitrationCommitteeChartRecent}}. NW (Talk) 18:17, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Agree with NW; I'm also not seeing much of a point in doing the list alphabetically, but each to his own, I guess. Perhaps a sortable list/chart would be of value, though. Risker (talk) 03:14, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Cla68 is still blocked

I'm wondering when Cla68's block will be commuted to a length of time shorter than "indefinite." Supposedly the Committee has been discussing this by email but we hanven't seen anything for more than two weeks. Chutznik (talk) 00:43, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes. An update, please. — Hex (❝?!❞) 13:45, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

There's not too much to tell at the moment, we're waiting on Cla68, who has said that he will come back with some comprehensive answers to some of our questions. Worm(talk) 13:54, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

That's funny. I could have sworn NYBrad said on the second of April that a decision would be made "soon". If you are being completely honest, that means that, after an entire month, your "decision" is to ask Charles some more questions. I wonder, at what stage do you imagine that you will need to order more rugs for all your carpet sweeping? Anyone want to take bets on Charles not even being aware of the questions? Oh, wait! Perhaps he should "email Arbcom" to find out more. We all know how that works. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.119.18.186 (talk) 00:29, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't think all the arbs are reading from the same songbook. Kevin (talk) 00:50, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Well, it wasn't for lack of trying on our part. The last message we had from Cla68 was that he was not available for a period and would get back to us. The ball is in his court; we've done our bit. Risker (talk) 01:29, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

I think I should mention that he's said elsewhere:

They have asked me to accept that what I did was outing, if I will promise not to do it again, how will I respond if anything I post in the future is oversighted, and how I feel about SilkTork being the one to unblock me since he opposed re-sysopping Kevin. I haven't responded because I've been busy with other things. AGK and Carcharoth also have emailed me some observations of theirs that I haven't fully responded to yet.

Those seem like reasonable questions to ask in the interests of avoiding anything like this happening again. Prioryman (talk) 06:44, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

To be clearer about what happened: at the time of NYB's comment, we had a draft unblock proposal. The proposal got tentative support and were emailed to Cla68 a few days afterwards. Cla68's response to it caused some vote changes such that the proposal no longer have majority support, and also caused several arbitrators to decide to ask him additional questions; we haven't got any answers to those questions yet. T. Canens (talk) 14:34, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

He shouldn't have to "accept" that it was outing as there are quite a few people who don't "accept" that, and even more who feel that it is not so indisputable that refusal to "accept" it as outing is a problem. If you otherwise get reasonable assurances that he won't do anything like it again then that should be all that matters.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:04, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

The policy about outing is pretty easy to understand.--MONGO 18:22, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

It's the ArbCom he has to convince, not "quite a few people". If you're up before the judge, appealing to the "wisdom of crowds" won't get you very far. Prioryman (talk) 18:27, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

While "quite a few people" may not accept that it was outing, there are many people (albeit generally less vocal) who agree with that characterisation of cla68's actions. Even if his initial comments were not outing (which by the outing policy they were), when another user acting in good faith considers them to be and removes them as such the correct course of action is emphatically not to repeat the comments. It is absolutely right that the arbitration committee are seeking to be convinced that cla68 understands what he did wrong, why it was wrong and why it must not happen again before he regains his editing privileges. Thryduulf (talk) 20:00, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

He shouldn't have repeated it after it was oversighted from a practical standpoint, but if they are demanding that nothing short of stating that he outed someone will get him unblocked then I don't believe that is reasonable or consistent with the proclaimed purpose of Misplaced Pages. Some people may adhere to a "literalist" interpretation of the WP:OUTING policy but WP:IAR exists because we should apply common sense and not let rigid adherence to the written rule override what should be our primary concern of producing quality content. The policy is about harassment and nothing Cla68 did constituted harassment. Cla68 should not be barred from contributing quality content because of some oversight in the letter of the policy that seemingly allows someone to publicly link their real name and Misplaced Pages username everywhere but Misplaced Pages, while still being protected from identification.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:51, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Come on guys you don't actually think Arbcom is going to do the right thing do you? Surely you have been here long enough to know that Arbcom does what best supports their agenda. Not what is best for the project or the community. You also surely know that they aren't going to admit fault. Of course its someone else's error, they can't be held accountable. There Arbcom where would you take the complaint? The WMF? Their even worse. Kumioko (talk) 00:13, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I've been around long enough to know that while the arbcom is not perfect (no group of humans can be), the only agenda they have is doing what they think is in the best interests of the project to create a free-content encyclopaedia. Their decisions can be appealed to Jimbo (except when they are hearing an appeal of his actions). No one user is bigger than the project, no matter what their contributions are or how long they have been making them and everybody is subject to the same rules as everybody else. Just because you have made a lot of edits does not give you the right to pick and choose which bits of policy you want to adhere to and which you don't.
@TDA If somebody has chosen not to reveal their real life identity on Misplaced Pages then posting it here is outing, regardless of whether they have revealed their identity elsewhere, because there may be very good reasons why they have chosen not to identify on Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages editors have the right to do so pseudonymously if they choose, you do not have a right to make that choice for another user and (attempting) to do so is harassment. IAR is about ignoring a rule if it stops you improving the encyclopaedia. Please explain in what way outing another editor improves the encyclopaedia? Thryduulf (talk) 00:39, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Oh come on Thryduulf, you know as well as any of us that Jimbo would never and has never overturned a ruling of Arbcom. In fact Jimmy is trying to reduce his powers and presence on Wiki, not solidify it be overturning rulings. So to say one can appeal to him is just a joke. The Arbcom historically makes decisions that are negative to both sides of the argument, presumably to enforce that going to them is a bad thing and they ought work it out rather than go before the jury. Kumioko (talk) 01:03, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

That's not true at all: ArbCom are slaves to their reptoid masters and operate as part of the huge conspiracy against Misplaced Pages. I thought everyone knew that? Nick-D (talk) 02:12, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Lol, that explains it alright. Kumioko (talk) 02:30, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

That's a disgraceful suggestion and nothing could be further from the truth.  Reptoid Drone 03:40, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Thryduulf, the argument you present is completely misguided and isn't consistent with the actual meaning of the terms you are using. You trivialize harassment by suggesting it has occurred with the mere act of noting one's real name in connection with a pseudonym when the person using it has regularly shared publicly the real name in connection with the username. Outing implies that the information was not already out and is not an issue sensitive to a given community. Consider the term's more common use. A person who has publicly come out to say he or she is gay can not somehow then claim to be outed as gay if some people who don't know about it are later directed to those public statements.

Only in the written word of Misplaced Pages policy would what occurred be considered "outing" and I say that is only due to a lapse by the editors who wrote it. I should also note that, while everyone has a right to use a pseudonym, no one has a right to a protected pseudonym. Fundamentally, it is on the individual acting pseudonymously to insure that no simple legal means can be used to discern one's identity. If finding one's identity requires intrusions, legal or otherwise, into an individual's personal privacy or necessitates intensive research then it constitutes outing. Directing people to what someone has stated publicly multiple times on other major sites does not.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 05:20, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand, which is very odd because it's very simple:

• The policy says that connecting someone's pseudonymous identity to their real identity on Misplaced Pages when they have not done so is outing.
• cla68 connected someone's pseudonymous identity to their real identity on Misplaced Pages when they had not done so.
• Therefore cla68 outed someone.

It doesn't matter whether you agree with the policy or not, whether you think it is stupid or not, why it currently is what it is, or anything else. The policy is what it is. If you want to change the policy then you can propose that, and if your proposal gains consensus then the policy will be changed. Until such time as it is changed, the current wording is what applies.

As for why it is currently written like it is, I repeat that people might have good reasons for not wanting their real identity published on Misplaced Pages. It doesn't matter what those reasons are, whether you agree with them or not, without you even understand them or not, that's entirely irrelevant. All that matters is that you do not have the right to make the decision for somebody else.

As a Misplaced Pages editor you have three choices for how to behave:

1. Work within the rules as they currently stand
2. Work within the rules as they currently stand while discussing the rules and proposing changes to them.
3. Leave Misplaced Pages

I really cannot fathom why any of this is not obvious to you? Thryduulf (talk) 09:11, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

You forgot one. Get promoted to Admin and you can do whatever you want. Kumioko (talk) 11:16, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

<cough> except reverse an Oversighter's block QuiteUnusual (talk) 11:47, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

So it would seem. Kumioko (talk) 12:45, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Actually, there is an explicit allowance for ignoring the policy when it conflicts with our actual purpose of producing quality content. In this case, indefinitely blocking a devoted content-creator because he apparently violated the letter of a policy that presents a novel definition of a common term that conflicts with common sense and puts it forward as part of a trivialized understanding of a term usually reserved for serious misconduct is a pretty good time to invoke that explicit allowance. The Arbs should only demand that he make a reasonable commitment to not do it again, not demand that he accept an absurd definition of "outing" inserted by some gaggle of editors when all he did was point to public sites where someone has publicly stated their real name in connection with their username.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 19:37, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Actually, Cla68 agreeing to "make a reasonable commitment not to do it again" is by definition asking him to accept the definition. They go hand in hand. Resolute 22:29, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I was just going to say that myself! Cla68 can hardly agree "not to do it again" if he doesn't accept that he did "it" in the first place or that there was anything wrong with what he did. My advice to him would simply be to swallow his pride, say what he has to in order to get himself unblocked and get back to editing (but stay well away from anything to do with editors' off-wiki identities in future). Prioryman (talk) 22:33, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

They do not go hand in hand. He can easily make a reasonable commitment to not state or link to information that includes someone's identifying information unless said information is explicitly provided by said editor on-wiki. Similarly, he can agree to not repeat information after it has been oversighted. It is perfectly possible for him to make reasonable commitments not to repeat those acts, without accepting the way those acts are characterized.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:44, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

My own experience of ArbCom (with regard to appealing arbitration sanctions) is that they tend to look for evidence that you understand why you were blocked / sanctioned in the first place, and not simply for a promise not to act in a particular way in the future. It's perhaps a bit like a court granting some leniency for pleading guilty instead of insisting throughout that you've done nothing wrong. Prioryman (talk) 23:07, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

One can give more than a simple promise not to repeat an action yet not agree with how an action is characterized. People can legitimately differ on why a certain action should not have occurred.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:26, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

At the very least the ArbCom should restore Cla68 talk page access. Then all communications could continue publicly. Aren't arbitrators tired of their secret proceedings and plying games of self-importance? Don't they understand that by blocking content contributors to satisfy trolls they damage the project? 76.126.142.59 (talk) 23:38, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

One thing I do find rather curious about this business is that Cla68's supporters seem to be far more concerned about the matter than Cla68 himself. As he's already said, he hasn't taken things forward because he's "been busy with other things". This discussion is fairly pointless. In the end, no amount of complaining or discussing is going to resolve this when it's basically a matter for Cla68 and the ArbCom. Let's leave them to get on with it, shall we? Prioryman (talk) 08:37, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

On wikipediocracy, there do not appear to be similar problems of Cla68 being too busy to comment. Today he complained there that the "Mathsci/FPaS" thing is what is stopping him from returning to editing here. As far as I'm concerned, Cla68's conduct hit rock bottom in October 2012. In his first failed RfAr on 22 October, the day he was banned from interacting with me, he wrote, "Mathsci states repeatedly that the stress from the Race and Intelligence topic area has caused him heart trouble and other kinds of hardship." When he wrote that, Cla68 was aware that I had had a bypass operation on 8 October. He was blocked by FPaS in early December for making similar comments. He shows no recognition that there was a problem with what he wrote. The Russavia incident is somewhat different, but it shows a similar lack of self-awareness. Mathsci (talk) 10:45, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Adding some thoughts here:

• (i) This sort of protracted back-and-forth by e-mail is very inefficient. It also disadvantages the appellant, as they don't hear the thoughts of arbitrators who should (in my view) communicate their thoughts (by e-mail) and not keep the appellant in the dark. Public discussion and voting is much better, but the worry here is presumably that either Cla68 or various onlookers, or the very presence of a public discussion, would exacerbate the issues. Remember how some people said that there should have been no block or desysop or motion because that drew attention to something that should have been dealt with quietly? The same arguments apply here as a protracted public discussion on this could reignite the issues that started this (and I wish those commenting here would recognise that).
• (ii) If Cla68 wants to be unblocked for a public discussion and vote by ArbCom on his unblock request, I would (despite what I said above) support that if a formal vote was held, but it won't happen unless a majority of arbitrators agree to it (or unless someone makes a formal RFAR request, but please don't do that without asking Cla68). I would hope that those wanting to comment on such a public request would give Cla68 the space and time to respond, and that Cla68 (once unblocked to participate in that) would speak up for himself rather than letting others speak for him. It could end up being a full case if Cla68 insists on being allowed a full and public hearing. The end result could be a ban for several months for this and prior conduct, rather than an unblock.
• (iii) I generally support unblocks with reasonable conditions for those who just want to get on with content production and have a good track record in that respect. As far as I'm concerned, I've supported such an unblock with reasonable conditions here, and it is now up to Cla68 to either reject that unblock (effectively a choice to make a stand on principle rather than returning to his content work), or to accept it. He also needs to present himself to other arbitrators in such a way that they will support his unblocking. I'm familiar with Cla68's editing and am comfortable supporting an unblock. Other arbitrators will be less familiar with his editing and will need more persuasion. It's not my role (or those of other arbitrators that support an unblock) to persuade those other arbitrators to change or soften their stance - the onus for that falls squarely on Cla68.
• (iv) I've been handling the main communications on this. I last wrote to Cla68 on 9 April 2013. The reply arrived on 11 April and we've heard nothing since. I will now be writing to him with an update on this, asking if he has anything further to add, and pointing him to this thread (he is clearly aware of it, but I will mention it anyway). Carcharoth (talk) 14:50, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

• Regarding (i), might it be an idea to have some kind of private invitation-only discussion forum where you and the other arbitrators can have a closed discussion with appellants without the peanut gallery getting a look-in? Prioryman (talk) 15:03, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

• That would be an improvement on the current situation. There are many cases where that is not needed (the simple appeals that are generally declined by one or two arbitrators looking at something, and the other arbitrators either not looking or silently agreeing). But situations like this (where privacy-related issues are discussed), yes, it would help. It would in particular help some appellants realise that being argumentative with a panel of 13 arbitrators, only some of whom may actually be listening to you, isn't actually very helpful. If you can imagine a scene where 5 out of 13 arbs respond and the appellant argues at length with all of them, you can imagine how that looks (to be clear, I'm not describing what is happening here, but that could easily happen). It works best when one arbitrator takes the lead in the discussion, and the others just weigh in occasionally. Carcharoth (talk) 15:12, 21 April 2013 (UTC)