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Rajatarangini

Is anyone here familiar with the History of Kashmir titled the Rajatarangini? The Sanskrit translation is 'River of Kings". It is a history of Kashmir rulers. In one section covering the time of Jesus is mention of a young prince who was crucified by an evil king (an usurper) but he survived and returned to Kashmir years later. This is the only mention of a crucifixion anywhere in India history, and that it did not occur in India. Further, a king known as Pravarasena had a ceremonial sword that he loved. Inside Roza Bal tomb is a ceremonial sword, now stripped of all ornamentation. It is displayed upright in a stone base, discovered in the Roza Bal tomb. Anyone?  :-) SuzanneOlsson (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:37, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Suzanne, there is no mention of a crucifixion in the Rajatarangini. Yes the reincarnation of the dead Hindu minister as the next Hindu king is mentioned in the article. What relevance does this have to Ahmadiyya belief? In ictu oculi (talk) 16:29, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

ictu oculi, The dates of Sandimatti and Jesus do not line up precisely-off by about 20-25 years. However, there are many similarities. Sandimatti was a Chief Minister, a young prince to an illegal King. He was betrayed (Judas) and taken illegally by night (Sandhedrin did this to Jesus) and hanged from a limb (crucifixion-with or without a cross bar). When his 'guru' named Isaana (apostles?) went to find him, the body was gone (empty tomb). He found the angels restoring Sandimatti (aloe and healing herbs-resuscitation). On Sandimatti's forehead was a sign that predicted he would survive(a reference to the the titulus hung above Jesus' head on the cross). The story of Sandimatti bears a lot of key similarities with the story of Jesus. The differences may be the result of events occurring in one place, then getting changed and mixed up as they got passed along and eventually written in another place. If Jesus returned to Kashmir by one name or another, this is why the story remained a part of the Rajatarangini. This is how some interpret the Sandimatti story and relate it to India. Peace. SuzanneOlsson (talk)

Suzanne. Yes a connection between Aryaraja and Jesus is given by the Spanish UFOlogist Andreas Faber-Kaiser in 1976. Is there any before 1976? But has any WP:RS ever seen any meaningful connection between the New Testament and the 1000 year later story of reincarnation or raising of Samdhimati as Aryaraja? If there is then please add an ISBN and page number on Talk:Aryaraja, but there is no relevance here to the muslim shrine in Srinagar. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:09, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi In Ictu Oculi, there is a repeated mention of these lines "Another Kashmiri history, the Rajatarangini, written in 1148 A.D., says that a great saint named Issana lived at Issabar on the bank of Dal Lake and had many disciples, one of which he raised from the dead. " . I have downloaded the 3 Volumes of the book but did not see these lines... can you help ڈاکٹر محمد علی (talk) 16:19, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

I did a simple search (not a complete search) and you may be right that it may not be in the book itself. It may just be an internet invention like many others that get copied and repeated everywhere. History2007 (talk) 09:59, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

2006 version of the Roza Bal page

Someone just sent me this link- it is an older version of the Roza Bal page: Wiki Roza Bal 2006

SuzanneOlsson (talk) 11:26, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

RELICS (AGAIN)

In reading the Roza Bal article, under notes# 35, a quote appears from Gregorianum, Page 258, Pontificia università gregoriana (Rome) "The whole story of how this legend was simply created (without a shred of evidence in its support), spread widely among a gullible public and still finds such latter-day exponents as Holger Kersten is splendidly told by Günter Grönbold." This quote (from the Vatican?) or summation is completely misleading. There have been notable artifacts found inside the tomb that associate it with Jesus, such as the crucifixion wounded feet and the Rod. If the relics and the family in Kashmir (Bashrat Shaheen) are not included in the article, then of course one would surmise there was/is not "a shred of evidence." Otherwise the article appears as slanted and biased, intentionally leaving out critical information. SuzanneOlsson (talk) 09:55, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

As I see it (you mean note 34, right? Maybe it changed between our postings), that is not misleading, unless you mean that somebody here made that quote up. The source did say that, and it´s only use in the article is to support that Grönbold critiqued Kersten. Per the discussion at "RELICS RELEVANCE" above, if there are no WP:RS that mention these relics, we don´t either. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:41, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Please help me understand what defines "reliable sources"..when every book every written about Roza Bal tomb includes the relics, and photos of the relics. The Director of Historical Archives in Kashmir examined the historical documents supporting the antiquity of the relics, and so stated in published books. No one at any time has ever raised the idea these might be fakes or frauds or recent creations by local shop keepers, except one or two wiki editors here taking wild guesses to support their POV (in support of church doctrine). ..Are the authors and research investigators and the Government of India professional agents not "reliable sources? SuzanneOlsson (talk) 23:02, 1 March 2013 (UTC)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk) 23:02, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

From my understanding, a reliable source depends on the source itself, not what it's claiming. What the user above is quoting comes from a publication of Pontifical Gregorian University, if I am not mistaken (I could be, double check that). Might I suggest that instead of choosing one source over the other, all reliable sources are included and the scholarly difference of opinion is made clear? For example, "X says this, Y makes a counter claim." Both clauses of the sentence would need reliable sources. Is that an acceptable solution? MezzoMezzo (talk) 04:49, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

That is valid in many cases, but the article says in reference to note 34:

"Kersten's ideas were among various expositions of the theory critiqued by Günter Grönbold in Jesus in Indien. Das Ende einer Legende (Munich, 1985)."

I really don´t see that there is likely to be a "scholarly difference of opinion" on that particular statement. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:02, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

I totally agree with Mezzo Mezzo and Gunter. Graberg, the page gets edited almost daily...even the tiniest of edits..and some things seem to have changed for the better already. ! Thus, the counter claims, including authenticity of the relics, claims made by a representative of the Government of India, someone in a position of authority and experience, should be included. I am referring to Professor Fida Hassnain. By the way, his Wiki page was "edited" to remove his picture (on false claim it violated copyrights- although it was made quite clear that it did not)and most of his C.V. was 'edited' to just a few lines. There was only one reference made to the work of Holger Kersten,containing only one negative opinion...I found this also very misleading. So I fully support both of you in presenting a fair and balanced page. I can not do anything, so I trust and rely on people like yourselves to be fair in building the Roza Bal page..Thank you. You are much appreciated. Best wishes, Sue SuzanneOlsson (talk) 16:59, 2 March 2013 (UTC)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk) 16:59, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Suzanne the problem is explained in WP:IRS. What makes Günter Grönbold, Wilhelm Schneemelcher, Norbert Klatt, Per Beskow, Gerald O'Collins, David Marshall Lang etc, etc. qualified sources is that these are recognised scholars and experts in their fields. Holger Kersten is not a qualified scholar or expert on any subject. See WP:IRS for how we decide this. As for GOI, the Government of India has not published any source verifying anything regarding the Roza Bal tomb, and until it is published it is not published. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:54, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

I see . Thank you for explaining. Hassnain published outside the Government-therefore these publications are not part of 'official' Government publications. I thought his position as a Government historical 'official' for 30 years would render him an 'expert'. It is more experience than some of the other 'experts' quoted in the Roza Bal article. This is from Hassnain's page here at Wiki "Before retiring in 1980, he held several posts, such as that of Director of General Records & Archives; Director of Archives, Archaeology, Research & Museums; and State Editor of Gazetteers of India. He became a Lecturer at S.P. College in Srinagar" SuzanneOlsson (talk) 09:09, 6 March 2013

Hi Suzanne, unfortunately not, not according to WP:IRS. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:26, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

________________________________________________________________________

Facts being overlooked.

As I am reading over the greatly improved Roza Bal page, I realize there is still a huge gap in the way the information is being presented. This is why: First, if the relics associated with the tomb are not investigated and included in this article, then readers are left to believe this was all a written and oral invention created around the fifteenth century. Second, regarding the name Yz Asaf. Asaf is a Biblical name that appears in the Bible many times. Yuzasaf (Yuz) means son of. It appears on Kushan era coins for several kings, including Gondopharnes/Gopananda. Joe Cribb of Oxford pointed this out to me regarding several coins he investigated. Even on Facebook, I am friends with several people whose name is Yuzaf/Yusasaph. I doubt very much they would agree with the idea this is a varaition of "Budasaf". There are places along the Old Silk Road-specifically in Pakistan (if any existed in Afghanistan and Iraq, these are long gone due to wars and terrorism and cultural conflicts) - marked to commemorate the journey of Mother Mary. These were her 'resting places' along the way. They lead directly to her 'final' resting place at Murree-Pindi Point. I invested a lot of time and travel trying to locate these and marking them on a map. My map was eventually confiscated by the ISI because they feared it would aid terrorist if it fell into the wrong hands. This was a major loss to me. I had so many valuable notes on those maps and I dont remember where I was when I marked some of these sites. Early churches were often built over these sites which is why they have been preserved in memory and legend. Now I also want to remind you that Pakistan once aired a documentary investigating the grave of Joseph, father of Jesus in the same area. I tried to find out who made that film. They had lost the records....I dont know where they filmed this grave, but it seems to me a vital link in the chain of evidence.. If Jesus' father was buried in the region, this would account for him using the name 'son of Joseph'. If anyone reading this knows people at Pakistan TV- you could start there. I thought of running an ad in Dawn magazine to get further information. That may be another approach. I just wanted to post this info as a reminder to researchers that there is more. You must connect the dots, including these sites, and the relics, et cetera- (talk) 04:39, 10 March 2013 P.S. I did not mean for those letters to appear so large and bold! My apologies. If anyone wants to edit this heading, please do! {Suzanne}

Hi Suzanne, Misplaced Pages has a WP:ban on connecting the dots. If any of this appears in WP:IRS then it can be entered as it appears in WP:IRS. Out of interest have you ever visited the grave of Yudasaf at Kushinagar? In ictu oculi (talk) 18:45, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi inctu oculi, I understand about Wiki- I am writing information here just for benefit of anyone reading this who may have the freedom to investigate further, and possibly make valuable contributions..I am trying to help. Since my hands are so effectively tied I am trying to help anyone (like yourself).It may help show the way for others. I have not visited Kushinagar. It was the place where the Lord Buddha died. I missed much when I lived in India. :-( Best wishes. SuzanneOlsson (talk)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk)

Interesting!!! the famous book of Ibn Babawayah "Ikmal uddin" now available in English as well. Please see YUZ ASAF entering Kashmir on page 275 of Vol 2 (English)!!! http://www.scribd.com/doc/27461079/Kamal-Al-Deen-wa-Tamam-Al-Ni-mah-Volume-2 and also compare with the Arabic Book now available : http://www.arabicbookshop.net/main/details.asp?id=124-370 The story of YUZ ASAF starts from page 223 of vol 2... YUZ ASAF in KASHMIR !!! Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 21:49, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, that is very helpful. I will add that to the Budasaf article. Of course you do realise that this only shows that the English was translated from an Arabic text which already had the mistake documented by Lang of Kasmir for Kasinara.

However it is also worth mentioning in Roza Bal, because at the moment the article doesn't explain the tradition about the direction of the grave - and this description of the application of the Kashinara deathplace to the Srinagar tomb. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:39, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

@In Ictu Ocul: Can you please tell the difference ? I don't know why is this confusion of BUDASAF and YUZASAF. In fact this appears a spelling mis-read by some one who is not quite familiar with Arabic Alphabets. The Arabic Yu za saf would spell as يو ذا سف . (this is YUZ ASAF) Now I write BUDA SAF as بو دا سف (BUDA SAF). Those of my friends who can not read Arabic will probably fail to identify the difference. Can you see the different spellings ? In the Arabic Text, available with me, I see the word as written YUZ ASAF (very clearly and repeatedly ).Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 06:24, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Dr Ali,

Yes it is written Yuzasaf in the Bombay Edition. Lang (as source in article) already said that the Bombay Edition of Ibn Babawayh has Yuzasaf not Yudasaf, ذ and not د.

Likewise Rasail Ikhwan al-Safa has ذ and not د. Do you consider that Yuzasaf not Yudasaf, ذ and not د, is also Jesus?

Dr Ali, do you think that there are two Yuzasaf, Ibn Babawayh's Yuzasaf and Rasail Ikhwan al-Safa's Yuzasaf?

Tell me, are we certain Waqiat-i-Kashmir of Muhammed Azam Didamari (1747) History of Kashmir, mention of Prince Yuzasaf is ذ and not د ? Is that a third Yuzasaf, or a Yudasaf?

Budasaf-Yudasaf-Iodasaph-Yuzasaph-Josaphat-Iodasaf, these names vary widely. We already have sources in the Budasaf article documenting Ba يا to Ya با as Yudasaf and from د to ذ . In fact there are a total of 12 sources in the Budasaf article commenting on the name variations. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:03, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

As we know ذ and not د means litte, since dots are frequently missed from Arabic consonants by mistake. I have seen similar printing errors even in books published in 2010, let alone 1747.

In any case, the unanimous view of all scholars is that the texts of Ibn Babawayh is talking about Buddha. The Folklore Society (Great Britain) - 1896 Volume 38 - Page 111 has "Another fact of much significance is this, that in the Georgian the proper names approach in their spelling very closely to the old Indian or Buddhist forms : e.g. Georgian Iodasaph is nearer than Josaphat to the Arabic Yudasaph and Budasaph " This was three years before Mirza Ghulam Ahmad published his reading of Ibn Babuwayah's Arabic Yudasaph as being Jesus not Budasaph. So the scholarly community already knew 3 years before Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's claims in Masih Hindustan-mein about Ibn Babawayh and already knew it was referring to Buddha. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:07, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

in our childhood the story we read in ibn Babwayh was very well known and it had been attributed to Sidartha Gothum Budh. He as a young prince left the palace etc etc. So I agree the tale (probably a myth only) relates to Buddha. I do not take it for an historical account. However , the possibility of this myth also being attributed to Jesus who was a later figure of mythological significance, and whose ministry to the Hebrew tribes in this part of the world after surviving at attempt on his life may be entertained. Removing the unnecessary details probably will connect the myths to Roza Bal. Moreover "Buddha" is a descriptive term, the wise or enlightened one. So it is possible when Jesus appeared in India, he was also a Buddha. Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 17:00, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

My understanding of a "myth" or "legend" is that it has a tradition. In regard to all three of those statements (1) Hebrew tribes in this part of the world (2) surviving at attempt on his life (3) identification of Isa as Bodhisattva, there is no tradition. These ideas all appear out of the blue in 1899. The only tradition we can speak of is the tradition from 1899-2013. And that tradition is documented in the article. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:27, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Jews in Kashmir

Hi, In Ictu Oculi, your categorical denials are always interesting ! There was a NON-AHMADI President of Israel with the name Itzhak Ben-Zvi, he was also a Pathan (like me), he writes: In his 1957 book The Exiled and the Redeemed, Itzhak Ben-Zvi, second President of Israel, writes that Hebrew migrations into Afghanistan began, "with a sprinkling of exiles from Samaria who had been transplanted there by Shalmaneser, King of Assyria (719 BC)..."The Afghan tribes, among whom the Jews have lived for generations, are Moslems who retain to this day their amazing tradition about their descent from the Ten Tribes. It is an ancient tradition, and one not without some historical plausibility... if the Afghan tribes persistently adhere to the tradition that they were once Hebrews and in course of time embraced Islam, and there is not an alternative tradition also existent among them, they are certainly Jewish."

And Itzhak was not an illiterate person, he headed the Institute for the Study of Oriental Jewish Communities in the Middle East, later named the Ben-Zvi Institute (Yad Ben-Zvi) in his honor. The Ben-Zvi Institute occupies Nissim Valero's house. His main field of research was the Jewish communities and sects of Asia and Africa, including the Samaritans and Karaites.

For dozens of other references/sources, mentioning the "Hebrews" being present in this part of the world, please see the Wiki entry, Theory of Pashtun descent from Israelites. Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 04:19, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Yitzhak Ben-Zvi was Jewish not Ahmadi. Yes Jews converting to paganism/Islam/Buddhism/Christianity happened. It's the idea of (1) actual Lost tribes of Israel in Kashmir which has no tradition. Admittedly it has more counterparts than (2) and (3). In ictu oculi (talk) 05:08, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Jews in Kasmir, NO TRADTION ?

KASHMIR, region in S. central Asia. The association of Kashmir with Jews was first alluded to by the 11th-century Muslim scholar Al-Bīrūnī in his "India-Book": "In former times the inhabitants of Kashmir used to allow one or two foreigners to enter their country, particularly Jews, but at present they do not allow any Hindus whom they do not know personally to enter, much less other people." In the time of the Moghul emperor Akbar (1556–1605), the question of the association of Jews with Kashmir and the Jewish descent of the Kashmiris was raised by the Jesuit Monserrate, who regarded the old inhabitants of this region as Jews by race and custom in view of their appearance, physique, style of dress, and manner of conducting trade. As early as the 17th century François Bernier, the scholar and traveler, who was in India from 1656 to 1668, was asked by Melchissedec Thevenot (1620–1692), a traveler and publisher, to discover if Jews had long been resident in Kashmir. Bernier reported that Jews had once lived here, but that they had converted to Islam. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0011_0_10803.html Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 05:41, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Okay, but not relevant to this article. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:52, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Mahdi

In the Article Roza Bal, I wonder how an irrelevant criticism, of Ahmad's (as) claim as the Messiah can fit ?(something neither factually nor actually true). It may better be removed: 'J. Gordon Melton states that having assumed the mujaddid (faith renewer) appellation in the 1880s, and having declared himself the Promised Messiah for the Christians, Ghulam Ahmad simply picked up the legend that Jesus had visited India in order to increase his self-identification with Jesus.' Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 06:05, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

J. Gordon Melton's comment is supported by Islamic Law In Africa - Page 357 ed. Sir James Norman Dalrymple Anderson - 1970 "This sect was founded by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Khan, who was born in Qadian in the Panjab in 1839 (circ). ... and in 1891 he announced that he was both the Mahdi (the " rightly-guided one ") whom Muslims expect and the promised Messiah." It is relevant in context. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:12, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

I somewhat agree, that long sentence seems partly outside the subject. Perhaps shorten to "J. Gordon Melton states that Ghulam Ahmad picked up the legend that Jesus had visited India in order to increase his self-identification with Jesus."? If supported by source, "increase his self-identification with Jesus" could change to "support his religous teachings" or something like that. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:04, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

@ In Ictu Oculi, , I have no objection to Gorgon believing Ahmad a false Messiah, or the so called “Islamic” law , calling him a liar , I asked How is this comment relevant to the Roza Bal article ? Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was true or false in his claims to be the Mahdi and Messiah has other bases, not the question of Roza Bal containg the remains of Jesus Christ. Please comment on it, particularly when you wrote the "Kashmirs being Jewish in Origin" was not relevant to this article !.Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 07:41, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

As far as I can judge the reason Melton sees fit to mention it is that he is inferring a conflict of interest between declaring oneself the Messiah and being an impartial historian regarding the claims of a previous Messiah. The comparison being that Howard Walter, J T Addison, David Lang, Gunter Gronbold, Norbert Klatt, Per Beskow, Wilhelm Schneemelcher and Melton himself do not have such a conflict of interest. In any case Melton is only one of dozens of sources saying similar. However I do have one problem with ref J. Gordon Melton, Martin Baumann Religions of the World, Second Edition 2010 Page 55 "To increase his identification with Jesus, Ahmad picked up and amplified an Indian legend that Jesus had not died on the cross in Palestine but had survived his crucifixion, after which he traveled to Kashmir in northern India." - this appears to me to be incorrect. I am not aware of any such Indian legend. In fact Beskow says the exact opposite, that there was none. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:26, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Rama Tirtha d.1906

ROZA BAL another Source: https://ia600409.us.archive.org/14/items/InWoodsOfGodRealization-SwamiRamaTirtha-Volume1/InWoodsOfGodRealization-SwamiRamaTirtha-Volume1.pdf Jesus buried in Kashmir, page 410 You know Christ did not die when he was crucified. This is a fact which may be proved. He was in a state called Samadhi, a state where all life-functions stop, where the pulse beats not, where the blood apparently leaves the veins, where all signs of life are no more, when the body is, as it were, crucified. Christ threw himself into that state for three days and like a yogi came to life again and made his escape and came back to live in Kashmir. Rama had been there and had found many signs of Christ having lived there. Up to that time there was no Christian sect in Kashmir. There are many places called by his name, places where Christians never came, many cities called by the same names as the cities of Jerusalem through which Christ passed. There is a grave there of 2,000 years standing. It is held very sacred and called the grave of Esah which is the name of Christ in Hindustani language,... (page 410, In the Woods of God,Vol 1) Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 08:09, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Interesting, thanks, but Ghulam Ahmad's 1899 claim was already published in a tourist guidebook in 1902, Rama Tirtha is after the event. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:26, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

It is almost impossible that the Hindu Swami would accept and take for truth, a "de novo Finding " of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and enter that into his book. The truth seems that the Swami has taken the existing traditions in vogue since very long about the Grave of Jesus /Eisa in the Roza Bal. Is there a proof that the Swami took it from Mirza Ghulam Ahmad ?Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 04:28, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

See biography of Rama Tirtha, he used multiple Hindu, Christian and Islamic sources. Ghulam Ahmad's idea was published in Tahrik-i-kabir-Kashmir, of Haji Mohiuddin 1902, so Ghulam Ahmad's claim was widely known before Rama Tirtha died and consistent with the "Vedantic brain and the Islamic body" ideal of the time. Consequently mentioning a source after Haji Mohiuddin 1902 seems to be not very notable. Unless there's a specific notability? In ictu oculi (talk) 05:43, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Plausible. Jazakallah. Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 06:23, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

All Printing MISTAKES,,, Jesus/Buddha/Yuz asaf/Budhasaf/ etc.

Jesus or Buddha, Yuz Asaf or Budasaf ? All a Printing mistake! The "Modern Scholars" in their last attempt to save Jesus from death, declare that ALL THOSE HISTORICAL EVIDENCES which say Yuz Asaf (Jesus) died in Kashmir are MIS-PRINTS actually 'BuddhAsaf" (Buddha) is intended and 'Kashmir' is a MIS-PRINT for KUSHINAGAR" where Buddha died !!!

I remembers a Joke about a similar printing MISTAKE A Pope dies and enters heaven, he makes a wish to read the Original ancient text of the Holy Book, He is taken to the Archives…. All of a sudden there is a scream in the library. The angels come running to him, only to find the Pope huddled in a chair, crying to himself, and muttering, "An 'R'! They left out the 'R'”. God takes him aside, offering comfort and asks him what the problem is. After collecting his wits, the Pope sobs again, "It's the letter 'R'... the word was supposed to be CELEBRATE."Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 14:52, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Don't quit your day job.  :) Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 12:10, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

-) be well Cogito ergo sum (talk) 15:00, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Amusing, though have heard it before.

As regards printing errors, that's minor. The main issue is that 100% of academic sources all agree, for once, unusual for such an issue to be so straightforward in a religion article. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:30, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Ref Sources 16,17,18 need be more critically evaluated.Seegmund (talk) 15:07, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Seegmund, welcome to Misplaced Pages. Those sources are reliable. See WP:IRS for what qualifies as reliable sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:30, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Relics (Again)

Sometimes we try so hard to impose our own views that we shoot selves in foot- This is taken from the current Roza Bal article: "Gerald O'Collins states that no historical evidence has been provided to support Ghulam Ahmad's theory that Jesus died in India." Again, I remind you that there is historical evidence in the form of relics associated with the tomb. By failing to mention these, leaves misleading ideas about the tomb. It's like discussing the Shroud of Turin without an actual Shroud. Perhaps someone should actually take the time to list the relics and their historical backgrounds . Also to be noted, the repeated failure to identify Yuz Asaf as 'son of Joseph' ..this emphasis on associating Yuza Asaf with Buddha is discouraging- it is based on European connotations, not on the traditional local uses of the words. Suzanne Olsson 66.177.27.120 (talk) 11:38, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

And again, what Reliable Sources can be used to write something about these relics? Yuz Asaf as 'son of Joseph' is mentioned in Jesus in Ahmadiyya Islam (as a flat out fact, no less), that´s probably where it belongs. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:28, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Relics and other findings to settle the identity of the Roza Bal...

Even among the Muslims, the Sunnis and Shiiahs all believe Jesus to be ALIVE and in the Heavens, so do believe the Christians. We may call it a naïve belief. But Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Did not invent it and has quoted a Legend upon which he based his theory. The Legend was that it was the Grave of a Prophet who came here. Albeit totally against the belief of the Muslims in that area !

a) Buddha had never been believed to be a Prophet in the Judo-Christian parlour. (Neither do the Buddhists believe him to be so).

b) The Buddhists have never shown any associations, in traditions or legends to this Roza Bal?

c) No mention of any Buddhists remnants or holy relics at this site, or visiting Sri Nagar Kashmir.

d) One “spelling mistake” made Budhasaf = Yuzasaf, another spelling mistake made “Kushinagar=Kashmir”, looks rather too much, particularly, a research by those who fancy Jesus is Alive and sitting on the Right hand …

e) To settle the actual identity of the Roza Bal, we must take into consideration other Corroborative evidences.

f) E.g. if it is the Grave of a Jewish Prophet, then there must be evidence of Jewish people in the area.

g) The very large number of words having a Hebrew root, in the whole region, the very word Gilgit is said to be Golgota, SRI = skul, and NAGAR =is place ; so Place of the Skull , (as we see in NT ), a very long list in fact…

Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 14:05, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

I´m sorry but this seems largely off topic to me in this particular thread (also this article). Views on Jesus is not interesting here. The article don´t claim Ghulam Ahmad invented anything. The topic of this discussion is the relics that are/were according some source placed in the tomb. I can only repeat that if there are no WP:RS we can base something on, Gerald O'Collins statement will stand unchallenged. I´ve earlier suggested it might be possible to start small, is it possible to suggest and reliably source a sentence about the relics starting "Hassnain also claims..." after the bit about the rock carving? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:34, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

hi Grabergs, if Gerald O' Collins negative statement is left unchallenged, it will remain unfair. in fact the ONLY issue about this grave/tomb is to prove/disprove that it is or is not the grave of JC. What else is the significance of this article ? Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 15:04, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Dr Ali, Suzanne

• the significance of this article is to represent WP:RS regarding a shrine in Srinagar, and as a corollary to that describe the views of academics, religious groups regarding that shrine as presented in WP:RS. This talk page is not a forum, it can only be about improvements to the article, which means primarily about WP:RS. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:34, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
• I actually agree that Gerald O' Collins negative statement should not be left alone. Other statements supporting Gerald O' Collins statement should be added. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:34, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

And it will remain unfair, until someone finds a WP:NOTABLE WP:RS that "challenges" him. The significance of this article is a matter of personal opinion, I guess. Its PURPOSE is to describe Roza Bal and what´s interesting about it, within the framework of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. Neither this article nor Misplaced Pages has as its purpose to prove/disprove that Roza Bal is or is not the grave of JC. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:39, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

The question of Relics e.g. the Rod, is probably a bit against facts. Even if it is supposed that there was the Rod of Moses (as photographed by Khwaja Nazir Ahmad in his book, being held by Jesus, why at all should the Jewish Sanhedrin let Jesus inherit that holy Relic of Moses ? No question arises. Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 21:36, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Ahmadiyya claims regarding shrine

This section lacks something relevant: ahmadiyya claims regarding the shrine. The lead states that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed in 1899 that it is actually the tomb of Jesus, but this section that should expand on the subject has nothing. Should we correct this? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:55, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

That's a good point, but beyond (a) the claim itself and (b) supposed evidence for the claim, there doesn't appear to be any other claim. The section on Khwaja Nazir Ahmad probably needs checking to specifically note any additional claims regarding the shrine. In fact one glaring thing that is missing is the specific claim about the direction of the grave. It's part of the original Buddha story as referenced "Then he stretched out his legs and turned his head to the west and his face to the east. He died in this position.", but when this claim moved from Ibn Babuwayah's Buddha story to association with the actual grave isn't referenced. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:25, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

I added the claim, it should be in the body of the article as well. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:38, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Mullah Nadiri?

What is the Identity of the 'Other' man lying East-West in the Shrine Roza Bal beside Syed Naseeruddin ???Drali1954 (talk) 05:53, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi Dr Ali. The answer to that depends on tracking down Khwaja Nazir Ahmad, Jesus in Heaven on Earth (1952) claim that Mullah Nadri 1420 AD, used as a source by Haidar Malik (1620s), mentions either (a) Yuzasaf, or (b) Rozabal. If you could verify that source that would take back to 1620. Currently we are at 1747. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:55, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I tried to reach the Source Tarikh e Kashmir by Mulla Nadiri. The story is, in 1946, Khwaja Nazir Ahmad examined the source and did photograph the necessary pages. The MSS was moth eaten and in a very dilapidated state. The actual picture of the page – 69 has been re-produced in the book Jesus in Heaven on Earth. After the death of the elder Basharat Saleem, the MSS had been in the custody of his grand children. Presently the MSS is probably with the family of the late Z A Bukhari. (the Ex Director General Radio Pakistan).

The contents of the page-69 can be clearly read, being in Persian. It mentions the words Hadhrat Issa and Yuz Asaf and Bani Israel . Also the holy place bait ul muqaddas. I have compared the he English redering of page-69 of Tarikh e Kashmir of Mulla Nadri as quoted with the Persian MSS and found correct:

“After him his son Raja Akh (whose name was Ach), came to the throne. He ruled for sixty years. It is said that he founded the village (of) Achabaal in Kothar district. After him his son, Gopananda, took (the reigns of) Government and ruled the country under the name of Gopadatta. (During his reign) many temples were (built) and on top of Mount Solomon the dome (of the temple) became cracked. He deputed one of his ministers named Sulaiman, who had come from Persia to repair it. Hindus objected that he (the Minister) was an infidel of (and belonged to) another religion. During this time Hazrat Yuz Asaf having come (marfu: elevated) from (Bait-ul-Muqaddas) the Holy Land to this holy valley (Wadi-e-Aqdas) proclaimed his prophethood. He devoted himself, day and night, in (prayers to) God, and having attained the heights of piety and virtue, he declared himself to be a Messenger (of God) for the people of Kashmir. He invited people (to his religion). Because the people of the valley had faith in this Prophet, Raja Gopadatta referred the objection of Hindus to him (for a decision). It was because of this Prophet's orders that Sulaiman, whom Hindus called Sandeman, completed (the repairs of ) the dome. (Year) Fifty and four. Further, on one of the stones of the (flankwalls encasing the) stairs he (Sulaiman) inscribed: In these times Yuz Asaf proclaimed his prophet-hood (Persian “Dar een waqt Yuz Asaf da'wa-i-paighambari mikunad”), and on the other stone of the stairs he also inscribed that he (Yuz Asaf) was Yusu, Prophet of Children of Israel (“Aishan Yusu Paighambar-i-BaniIsrael ast”). I have seen in a book of Hindus that this prophet was really Hazrat Isa (Jesus), Ruh-Allah (the Spirit of God) on whom be peace (and salutations) and had also assumed the name of Yuz Asaf. The (real) knowledge is with God. He spent his life in this (valley). After his departure (death) he was laid to rest in Mohalla Anzmarah. It is also said that lights (anwar) of prophethood used to emanate from the tomb (Rauza) of this Prophet. Raja Gopadatta having ruled for sixty years and two months died.. ." (Page 401-402, Jesus in Heaven on Earth by Khwaja Nazir Ahmad.

Dr, Ali, thanks, okay I have found the pdf on the web (Jesus in Heaven on Earth 1952 Chapter 24 http://www.muslim.org/bookspdf/jihoe/jihoe24-27.pdf)

(Nazir Ahmad himself speaking) I will now quote from two very old books of history. The first (in Persian) is attributed to Mulla Nadiri, the first Muslim historian of Kashmir. The book, when I saw it, was moth-eaten and the first and last few pages were unfortunately missing. I had the relevant folio photographed, but before I could complete my negotiations for the purchase of the MSS. I had to leave Srinagar on account of the Partition of India. The author dealing with the reign of Gopadatta (f. 69) writes:

And then the purported actual text:

(Lost Book seen in 1946) ... and on the other stone of the stairs he also inscribed that he (Yuz Asaf) was Yusu, Prophet of Children of Israel (Aishan Yusu Paighambar-i-Bani Israel ast). I have seen in a book of Hindus that this prophet was really Hazrat Isa (Jesus), Ruh-Allah (the Spirit of God) on whom be peace (and salutations) and had also assumed the name of Yuz Asaf. The (real) knowledge is with God. He spent his life in this (valley). After his departure (death) he was laid to rest in Mohalla Anzmarah. It is also said that lights (anwar) of prophethood used to emanate from the tomb (Rauza) of this Prophet. Raja Gopadatta having ruled for sixty years and two months died.. ."

Is there a photo of the page? It would be an interesting source if a copy could be found, because if it is pre-1899 it'd be the only evidence prior to Ghulam Ahmad of identification of Yuzasaf with Isa. However I'm guessing it is written 1900-1946 since the identification of Yuzasaf with Jesus is so amazing that if there had ever been any mention of it prior to 1899 then Ghulam Ahmad's idea would not have been so surprising. The one thing we can be certain of is it cannot be Mullah Nadiri (c 1420), since there is no mention of it in any of the sources dependent on Mullah Nadiri. What we now need to do is provide a reference to Khwaja Nazir Ahmad's claim to have seen a lost book in 1946. Günter Grönbold presumably comments on Nazir Ahmad's claim to have seen a book. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:40, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

{{out} Hi in Ictu Oculi, The Link you have quoted above has pdf pages (44 pages in total) from the Book 'Jesus in Heaven on earth' page 383-426 of the Book, (44 pages in total)

on page 393 (11 of pdf) Persian page Photographed in 1946.

On page 407 (25 of pdf file) see the TWO Inscriptions.

On page 403 (21 of pdf) Hindu Sanskrit text of maha Purana .("Iesa meeting the king Shalivan...")

The important point to note is the complete concordance of the Tarikh e Kashmir, the Two Inscription and the book Ainul Hayat... Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 13:27, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Dr Ali, many thanks, got them

on page 393 (11 of pdf) Photograph of a folio from Tarikh-i-Kashmir (See page 401).

on page 407 (25 of pdf) Inscriptions in Takht-i-Sulaiman, Srinagar. (See page409)

Bhavishya Purana we don't need since sources in the article already show that it is from the time of Queen Victoria and it has no connection with the shrine to Budasaf at Roza Bal. Now we need Günter Grönbold or Norbert Klatt's comments on p393 and p407. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:47, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi In Ictu Oculi , be well. Views of these two Scholars, would be worth considering only if they subscribe to the opinion that Jesus has died a mortal death, otherwise why should they search for his Grave or entertain any such possibility? Do you know anything about them? Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 04:38, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Dr Ali. Misplaced Pages doesn't work like that. We accept scholars as WP:IRS because they are qualified and typically have university or similar tenure. In this case Günter Grönbold and Norbert Klatt are the two main German scholars who have analysed the various texts claimed by Ghulam Ahmad and Nazir Ahmad. Misplaced Pages reflects the views of qualified scholars. So we'd need to find e.g. Günter Grönbold and Norbert Klatt's opinion of the 1946 photograph and inscription no.4 on the Shankaracharya Temple. Anyway, did you see my question about the inscriptions, exactly what language is No.4 in? In ictu oculi (talk) 05:23, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

I wonder if you would get interested in the work of Prof Paul C. Pappas,(1991) a Professor of History, he has written a book with the name Jesus' Tomb in India . I scanned through the book, unlike Gunter Gronbold he seems to support the opposite view. ڈاکٹر محمد علی (talk) 12:27, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Dr Ali, I really did not want to come back to this page, but your message on my talk page seemed like an invitation. I should have known better, and should not have even looked, but I did take a quick look at the Papas book because I had never seen i before, and my reading seems to be different:

• Page 97: Not only the works by the Ahmadis, but also their scholarship is questionable. They seem to have selected passages and to have presented them inaccuraely and out of context in order to prove that Jesus traveled to Kashmir.

• Page 100: Therefore, the Ahmadi thesis can rest only on eastern legends recorded in oriental works, which for the most part are not reliable, not only because they were written long after the facts, but also because their stories of Yuz Asaf are different and in contradiction.

• Page 115 (last paragraph): It is almost impossible to identify Yuz Asaf with Jesus.

I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Hence my apologies in advance. History2007 (talk) 13:51, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi dear History2007, I am grateful for your considered and kindly views. Be well. ڈاکٹر محمد علی (talk) 03:48, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Inscriptions

(3 and 4): on the Shankar Acharya Temple / Takht e Sulaiman Shankaracharya temple Two of the Inscriptions (no.3, 4) (see pictures page 407 of book 'Jesus in Heaven on Earth') present even today (on the flank walls encasing the staircase ) attests the contents of page 69 of Mullah Nadiri “Tarikh e Kashmir” as follows:

• 3. Dar een waqt Yuz Asaf da'wa-i-paighambari mikunad, Sal punjah wa chahar. (At this time Yuz Asaf proclaimed his prophethood. Year fifty and four.).
• 4. Aishan Yusu paighambar-i-Bani Israil ast. (He is Jesus, Prophet of the Children of Israel).

These Persian Inscriptions are probably of the times of Mughul King Shah Jehan (1592-1666) Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 22:49, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I'd be interested in a link to an online photo of p407 of Jesus in Heaven and on Earth. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:08, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Dr Ali, sorry to be lazy. What language exactly is inscription No.4 in? In ictu oculi (talk) 04:55, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

The Inscription on the staircase, photographed is in Persian. But due to the unique Calligraphy it seems hard to read it. However, I can myself read easily the two words in the upper line: ".... saal punjah Chaharum (the year 50 and 4). It is Persian of, the Official working language in the Mughul days. Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 08:35, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Actually now that I have taken another look, Pappas (page 115) does refer to Nazir Ahmad's book Jesus in Heaven on Earth, and states:

Nazir Ahmad also concludes that the meeting between Yuz Asaf and Shalewahin must have taken place about 78 AD. He indicates (p. 381) that about 60 AD (or in the 50's), Kadephsis I of the Kushans... forced the rulers of this area to pay tribute to him.

About 78 A.D. he (referring to Shalewahin) left northern India for for the Deccan in the south to crush a rebellion there. Therefore, he must have met Yuz Asaf in Wien (Voyen) near Srinagar shortly before his departure for the Deccan during the same year. But how could Shalewahin have waged war in Kashmir when supposedly King Gondophares, who was the sole master of this area, was still the ruler?

Al-Haj Nazir Ahmad's work Jesus in Heaven on Earth, which constitutes the Ahmadi's best historical defense of Jesus' presence in Kashmir as Yuz Asaf, appears to be full of flaws, especially concerning Gondophares' reign.

So that is what Papas says at any rate. History2007 (talk) 15:21, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

My view is that it is a NEW idea that Jesus is buried in a grave. It may not at all be provable with historical evidences. Death is a surety, location of Grave a conjecture. ڈاکٹر محمد علی (talk) 15:46, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

I think most scholars agree with your general statement, in that historically speaking death is subject to agreement among scholars (resurrection is a theological teaching) and the location of the grave is not established - in Judea, Japan or Kashmir. In fact Pagels joked at one point that Jesus may have gone to India or may have been abducted by extraterrestrials in a UFO, and no one know either way. But what you and I think matters not in Misplaced Pages, it is what the WP:RS sources say, of course. History2007 (talk) 16:37, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi , this UFO story is rather interesting. You are very correct what matters in Misplaced Pages, rather which sources the editors deem fit to include, matters most ! ڈاکٹر محمد علی (talk) 04:23, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Minor Errors to be corrected

Some errors which need correction

• 1) Rasail Ikhwan al Saja : should be 'al Saffa'
• 2) Quoting from Jesus in Heaven on Earth ...."translation into English from Urdu translation from Persian Original 'Ikmal ud din ...." give an impression as if the book "Ikmal ud din " was originally in Persin. It is in Arabic , all else are translations.
• 3) Incorrect sentence:

...head to the West and his face to the East ...(incorrect) “He then stretched his legs towards the West and head towards the East and died”. (Shaikh Al-Said-us-Sadiq, Kamal-ud-Din, p.359)

“He laid himself with his head towards the East and stretched his legs towards the West”.( Ibn-i-Muhammad Hadi Muhammad Ismail, Ainul- Hayat, Vol. 2, Ch. 2 : 177-178.) Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 11:24, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

I made the necessary corrections. Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 14:51, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Dr Ali, 1). thanks for picking up the Saja-Safa typo, I have corrected link to Rasail Ikhwan al-Safa.

Re 2). You're certain Khwaja translated from Arabic? Norbert Klatt implies Khwaja Nazir Ahmad translated from Urdu. Anyway, it's not a big issue. As regards 3). the translations:

A. "Then he stretched out his legs and turned his head to the west and his face to the east. He died in this position." http://www.scribd.com/doc/27461079/Kamal-Al-Deen-wa-Tamam-Al-Ni-mah-Volume-2

B. "He then stretched his legs towards the West and head towards the East and died” Jesus in heaven on earth - Page 362 Khwaja Nazir Ahmad 1952

Even though there are only cosmetic differences I think it would be better to retain the independent Arabic translation, so if you don't mind I have restored 3). the standard English translation. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:57, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi In Ictu Oculi OK that is fine. But you did not comment upon the Mulla Nadri source ? Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 23:30, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

See above. Thanks for the page ref to 1946 photograph. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:55, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Ghulam Ahmad publication date

Roza Bal and Ahmadiyya:…the MSS of ”Msih Hindustaan Men” (Urdu: Christ in India) published only after his death in 1908.

Someone fancied in the article that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed, Roza Bal was the Tomb of Jesus, only to prove his identity with Christ.This is incorrect. In fact it is ONLY a minor corollary of the faith of Ahmadiyya Muslim Community that Roza Bal is the “Tomb of Jesus”. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad did not even publish the book “Masih Hindustaan Men” (Urdu: Christ in India) in his life time, he died on 26th May 1908. The book was published ONLY AFTER HIS DEATH, in November 1908.

The fact is, it a consequence to the researches of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad that Jesus did not die upon the cross and was rescued and travelled to a Mountainous high ground full of Springs (the Holy Qur’an says: “And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording rest and security and furnished with springs.” (Quran 23:50) ڈاکٹر محمد علی (talk) 06:44, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Dr Ali,

1. Do you have the page reference where Ghulam Ahmad applies Quran 23:50 to Kashmir?

The verse 23:50 has not been referred to in his book “Masih Hindustan Men”, but has been mentioned repeatedly in other of his books: In the exegesis of verse 50 chapter 23 (al-Mominoon) the Qur’an; “And We made the son of Mary and his mother a Sign, and gave them shelter on an elevated land of green valleys and springs of running water” (23:50), Mirza Ghulam Ahmad clearly states that this verse of the Qura’an purports to Jesus and his mother Mary being granted shelter, security and peace in Kashmir (Sirinagar) in the following references:

1. Read Book ‘Kashti e Noah’ , page 19, (footnote) and page 77 (footnote), Published October 5, 1902. . here. http://www.alislam.org/library/browse/volume/Ruhani_Khazain/book/Kashti_Nooh/?l=Urdu#page/19/mode/1up And also on page 77 ( of same book)

2. http://www.alislam.org/library/browse/volume/Ruhani_Khazain/book/Kashti_Nooh/?l=Urdu#page/77/mode/1up

3. Book “Ijaz e Ahmadi (Zameema Nazool ul Mahih)”, (p.23) (RK Vol 19, page 127 read here: http://www.alislam.org/library/browse/volume/Ruhani_Khazain/book/Ijaz_e_Ahmadi/?l=Urdu#page/127/mode/1up

4. Book “Al Huda” (p. 124), and page 368 of Vol 19 RK, (June 1902), read here: http://www.alislam.org/library/browse/volume/Ruhani_Khazain/book/Al_Huda/?l=Urdu#page/368/mode/1up

5. Book Tadh kira tushahadatain (Oct 1903) (p. 29), RK, Vol 20, page 29, read here: http://www.alislam.org/library/browse/volume/Ruhani_Khazain/book/Tadhkirat_ush_Shahadatain/?l=Urdu#page/29/mode/1up

6. Book ‘Baraheen Ahmadiyya Part 5th, (1905) (page 229), RK Vol 21, page 404, read here: http://www.alislam.org/library/browse/volume/Ruhani_Khazain/book/Braheen_e_Ahmadiyya/?l=Urdu&p=5#page/404/mode/1up

7. Book ‘Haqeeqa tul Wahi” (1907) (p.232) RK Vol 22, page 243, read here: http://www.alislam.org/library/browse/volume/Ruhani_Khazain/book/Haqiqat_ul_Wahi/?l=Urdu#page/243/mode/1up

ڈاکٹر محمد علی (talk) 09:31, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

2. The following source says 1899:

Leonard Fernando, Dr George Gispert-Sauch Christianity In India: Two Thousand Years of Faith 2004 p28 "A third source of the legend of Christ in India comes from a late Muslim tradition, especially as popularized by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835-1908), founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam, in his book Masih Hindustan Main, first published in Urdu in 1899 "

In ictu oculi (talk) 01:09, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Actually the publisher's note in the book itself (page v) says: "Written in 1899, and partly serialized in Review of Religions in 1902 and 1903, the book itself was posthumously published on 20th November 1908". Just search for that and it will show. And Navras Jaat Aafreedi in Shofar Volume 28, Number 1, pp. 1-14 suggests 1899. Mark Bothe in Die "Jesus-in-Indien-Legende" (page 6) also says 1899. The Spanish version of Hassnain's La otra historia de Jesus page 212 says: "Masih Hindustan Mein, compilada en 1899 y publicada en 1908". Paul Constantine Pappas in Jesus' Tomb in India (page 69) says it was first published in 1899. So the publisher's note may make sense, as does Dr Ali's statement. The Review of Religions is an Ahmaddi publication, so he wrote it in 1899, started to disseminate it in parts in 1902, and it was then published about 6 months after his death in 1908. History2007 (talk) 03:34, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks H, do you want to add to Jesus in India (book). In ictu oculi (talk) 17:12, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I had just done that. You read my mind... History2007 (talk) 17:18, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Youtube promoting book

I made a trailer for my book about Roza Bal....first film I ever made! The book contains information and references and sources for virtually everything discussed on this talk page...however, I am learning an amazing new amount of info from these exchanges! Thank you all. The inscriptions at Takt-i-Sulieman are in the Sulu-Persian script, in the Arabic family. A variation of this script came into common use in the Pakistan-Afghan region after the advent of Islam..Professor Asko Parpola "Deciphering the Indus Script", published by University of Cambridge, 1994...pp 129-130: "There are more than 20 Neo-Iranian languages, including modern Persian...Archaeological and textual evidence attests to Sumerian visits from c. 3300 BC onwards. Harappans had been trading in the Gulf since at least Akkadian times." The book goes on to give many examples of these blended scripts and how they came about, so dating them to modern Arabic is not possible. For those who are geographically challenged, Iran borders modern Pakistan which was once ancient India- these scripts flowed back and forth constantly among traders and travelers, especially because this is the heart of the Old Silk Road. I have also used 'A Companion to Sanskrit Literature' by Sures Chandra Banerji..Delhi, 1971; pp 67-671: It is impossible to ascertain precisely when the art of writing originated in India. There are three distinct periods of scripts; Pre-Mauryan, Mauryan, and Indus Valley. Ashoka used Yavanani (a Greek version) Brahmi, and Karoshti. The alphabets written from right to left in India were predominantly in the extreme northwest areas, considered Persian domains since before 300 BC" (p.671-672) Here's the link to my book trailer-

Jesus in Kashmir The Lost Tomb

I worked hard on this so please don't be too critical. All the best, Suzanne Olsson — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.177.27.120 (talk) 16:18, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Suzanne, here is Asko Parpola's homepage. http://www.helsinki.fi/~aparpola/ I suggest you email him the url for the two inscriptions for the Shankaracharya Temple and ask him to date them. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:18, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi Sue, it is a wonderful addition.Engr John (talk) 10:15, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Engr John. It has given me much trepidation to make that first and only book trailer..I feel I am up against some really good professionals! I am sure that so many editors here will have some usful advise for me. For ictu oculi, thank you for the URL to Parpola's page..Good idea to contact him directly but I am not sure that he is still living.Will check it out...I've had his book for years and used it often. I too wonder what he would make of the inscription! Along the KKH there are over ten thousand inscriptions, left in every script known to man! In places like India and Pakistan there are 'intellectual clubs' that form and make a game of trying to decipher the ancient scripts. They take this very seriously and scolarly. Many used books like Parpola's for guidelines..In fact he acquired a lot of his knowledge about the scripts this way! Best regards, SueSuzanneOlsson (talk) 06:02, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Drat. I got the email ready to send Parpola, and cannot find a link to the scripts in question. Anyone? SuzanneOlsson (talk) 06:17, 24 April 2013 (UTC)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk) 06:17, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Suzanne http://www.muslim.org/bookspdf/jihoe/jihoe24-27.pdf In ictu oculi (talk) 01:19, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Films to Include

I am just curious why a fiction book is mentioned,yet this no mention of recent documentary films about Roza Bal, such as the one by Government of India. Couldn't a section on films and documentaries be added to improve the page ? I notice this is on other pages at Wiki. If you would like a list of current English documentaries, I can post it here.Sue SuzanneOlsson (talk) 06:38, 25 April 2013 (UTC)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk) 06:38, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Is it really "by" Government of India, and not just approved for public wiewing or something like that? http://www.thegreatplanet.com/the-rozabal-shrine-of-srinagar-india-documentary/ Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:46, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Anyway, I can see something like this being mentioned, preferably sourced to a rewiew in a indian newspaper or film-magazine, perhaps? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:06, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Grabs Graa Sang, I have had extensive communications with Yashendra Prasad, the India film maker, and he assures that the Gov. of India sent him to make the documentary. Further, they had to review it and approve its contents and release...The film made by Paul Davids is independent. There are also films by BBC, History Channel, and others. Should I start to compile a list that you all might review for inclusion here? SuzanneOlsson (talk) 09:17, 25 April 2013 (UTC)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk) 09:17, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

By the way, as I understand it, "The Rozabal Line" got some attention in media and sold well, thus we mention it. I feel that any documentary/whatever we want to mention have to be sourced to a WP:RS (the more the better), a dedicated webpage/blog written by the filmmaker won´t be enough. So I would focus on those you can find WP:RS for. Come to think of it, having "Did Jesus Die?" in the article is a bit of a stretch, it´s more about swoon hypothesis and perhaps Unknown years of Jesus than Roza Bal, but since BBC means both Notable and Reliable to most of us, it should stay. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:55, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Grabergs Graa Sang. I will start a small list and include references from outside sources as you suggested WP:RS... Hope I can have the list posted here in a few days. Peace and blessings....Sue SuzanneOlsson (talk) 03:44, 26 April 2013 (UTC)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk) 03:44, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Backatya! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:44, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

I should probably say that I am a pretty uncomfortable with a list of semi-unknown movies by semi-nobody film makers such as Prasad. I mean unless there is a new theory that Roger Ebert has now been buried at Roza Bal and has somehow communicated to people that he wants Misplaced Pages to become a movie review site about it, then this should still remain "an encyclopedia almost entirely driven by scholarship" not a new reincarnation of TV Guide.

I mean unless these movies have renowned scholars like Pagels saying things there, what encyclopedic value do they have? Why should they get any attention at all?

The Roza Bal line gets a sentence because it was a huge best seller, just as The Da Vinci Code gets a sentence here and there. But beyond those best sellers, what encyclopedic value is provided by the wannabe-Spielbergs like Prasad who may make a movie for $20k or so? He also makes movies about yoga, etc. and has zero credentials and zero credibility in terms of scholarship on this topic. And that he received a letter from someone in the government in India means nothing, unless the letter had appointed him to be a distinguished professor of history in some university. I seriously doubt that. I therefore think that just because low budget movies may have been made, their inclusion in encyclopedia items has no merit unless they have achieved significant notability by virtue of dramatic commercial success or they include significant scholarship. The current film does not; and others like it should also be excluded for they would just hint at things while providing zero scholarship. History2007 (talk) 13:20, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

I basically agree, but since the subject is pretty obscure, I think "The Rozabal Shrine of Srinagar" (or what´s out there), can be mentioned if it can be shown that it had an article/review in 2-3 decent indian newspapers/moviemagazines. Being produced by an indian equivalent of the BBC should probably count some as well (I´m not saying it was). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:36, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Ok, let us see where it was mentioned and more importantly, who was in it. The Richard Denton BBC item is OK not just because it was on BBC (Fawlty Towers was also on BBC...) but because it had Crossan, Fredriksen, Wright, etc. These are all really big names and highly notable scholars with their own Wiki pages, scholarly publications, holding professorships in major universities. As you said, that program was about swoon more than Roza Bal, but still to have all those scholars talk on a program makes it notable. So let us see who is talking on these films then go from there based on the scholarship it may offer. The interesting phenomenon here is that somehow the public believes half-baked movies more than scholarly books, but encyclopedias can not be driven by that phenomenon. History2007 (talk) 20:20, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough. Maybe it´ll have the Indian Governments head of religious artifacts or something. And Fawlty Towers was GOOD ;-)Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:04, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Funny you should say "head of artifacts" today... Maybe we can cook up new theory about this one too... History2007 (talk) 21:19, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

It´s obvious: a secret remake of Life of Brian. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:28, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Here are the documentary comments about Jesus in India by Dr. James Tabor. "James Tabor in the BBC4 documentary Did Jesus Die?: “Jesus would have to leave the territory, and we would have to ask the question ‘where would he go?’. If we look on a map, Palestine is on the far Eastern border of the Roman Empire. If you go west, you are going right into the heart of the Roman territory, where we have our 15 legions stationed around the world. If you go east, you are crossing over into Parthia, and you are going towards Persia eventually and India and Afganistan, that direction”

He later goes on to say: "People forget that the Messiah’s got to do essentially two things. Everyone knows he’s got to bring world peace and justice and defeat evil. That’s all the way through the prophets. When the Messiah comes he is a prince of peace. But the other huge task is he’s got to gather all the scattered tribes of Israel back to the land of Israel. Now this takes a bit of explaining but it’s not too complicated. The people we know today as the Jews are only one tribe – the tribe of Judah. And we have in the Hebrew Bible the story of ten of the tribes been taken away to the east, to the north east, by the Assyrians - in the eighth century BC. They become know in the history as the “Lost Tribes” because nobody knows exactly what happened to them. We do though — We can speculate that if Jesus thought of himself as the Messiah, he might have had in mind, ‘I’ve got to go and present myself to these dispersed brothers and sisters — wherever they might be’ ”. (James Tabor, Professor of Religious Studies, University of North Carolina) SuzanneOlsson (talk) 17:06, 5 May 2013 (UTC)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk) 17:06, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Ok, but I am sorry what does that have to do with anything historical? Apart from the obvious fact that Tabor these days has as much academic credibility as Elmer Fudd (not because of this, but for the rest of his theories) the above is just speculation about motives, and has zero historical references. And he does say "We can speculate that if ..." anyway. So it is all just speculation sans evidence. And anyway Tabor is supporting the Talipot tomb story these days, and I have not seem him formally endorse Roza Bal anywhere. Has he supported Roza bal as a burial place in a formal written document or in his books anywhere? If he is a formal supporter (which would have to be listed in the liability column for whatever he supports, anyway) where was that? History2007 (talk) 17:21, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

OK History2007- I think we get your point. About the scripts carved into Takht i Sulieman, they support the theory that YuzAsaf came to kashmir as Jesus: If I knew how to post the jpg scripts here, I would do that. The translations ere inscribed to replace older, damaged scripts that would soon be lost..It was the job of Rishis to keep records of these ancient scripts- to write them over every few generations --as the old ones became too worn to be legible..this is still done by rishis in Kashmir to this day (and by Buddhist monks in Himalayan monasteries) "TWO 'INSCRIPTIONS' translate as follows..

These inscriptions are of the time of Mughal King Shah Jahan and written upon the stair case of the Temple Shankar Acharya, Sri Nagar. Kashmir (also called as 'Takht e Sulaiman')

1. Dar een waqt Yuz Asaf da'wa-i-paighambari mikunad, Sal punjah wa chahar. (At this time Yuz Asaf proclaimed his prophethood. Year fifty and four.).

2. Aishan Yusu paighambar-i-Bani Israil ast. (He is Jesus, Prophet of the Children of Israel). SuzanneOlsson

So, first I now assume that we have no actual source that states that Tabor supports Roza bal. Right?

Secondly is there a source that dates the inscriptions? I thought Asko Parpola was going to see if he can date them. Has he agreed to do so? If/when he does and publishes that, then it will be of use. Or is there another source beyond folklore for this?

And in any case, regarding the re-inscriptions every few generations, is there evidence that it was done accurately and corresponds to the original (if any)? Or does it just place faith in the traditions of the Rishi? Did some Rishi ever pull a Bourbaki? I wonder... I always liked Weil and Cartan for doing that... Weil even had business card printed an all. They must have had a good laugh... Never had a chance to do one myself... History2007 (talk) 18:58, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

The inscription are no more.... all obliterated. ڈاکٹر محمد علی (talk) 19:06, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

A source for that would settle it once and for all. And so why are the inscriptions even being discussed? History2007 (talk) 19:08, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

The inscriptions are being discussed because they support the discussions about Yuz Asaf and Roza Bal. In all circumstances I am aware of..rishi translations, copy and preservation of old records match those recovered as well in ancient Aramaic, Greek, and Latin. Can you prove to us anything to the contrary? SuzanneOlsson (talk) 19:16, 5 May 2013 (UTC)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk) 19:16, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Foot Prints and Crucifixion

I Quote from a blog.... The grave site shows two footprints. A crucifix and a rosary once decorated the grave. In Asia, foot prints on Graves of spiritual people are a widespread tradition. The foot prints always display certain characteristic features. Thus, Buddha’s footprints were adorned with a swastika. The swastika was originally an old Indian symbol for good luck. The foot prints of Yuz Asaf display the wounds of a crucifixion. This is so evident that it cannot be denied. Nevertheless, critics refuse to accept the evident characteristics on those footprints. Denying what is so obvious to many historians will save an entire world religion from its demise --ڈاکٹر محمد علی (talk) 18:59, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

But WP:USERG says that Misplaced Pages can not use blogs. History2007 (talk) 19:05, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Don't quote from a blog...Just look at the footprints and at medical drawings of crucifixion wounds (matching wound scars on the Shroud of Turin) when one foot is twisted over another and both held in place with a spike..same scars on Shroud of Turin and at Roza bal.SuzanneOlsson (talk) 19:12, 5 May 2013 (UTC)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk) 19:12, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

But WP:NOR says not to do what you just said. History2007 (talk) 19:14, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

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