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Revision as of 01:24, 28 May 2006

Archive 1 of previous discussion

Mediation

Hi all, I am here to try and be an impartial third party to help resolve this dispute. From what I see, the disagreement exists regarding the content in the biography and the sources used. In the space below, could each side present their own opinion on what they believe is necessary for the article. Please remember to refrain from personal attacks. Hopefully we can reach a compromise! Brisvegas 07:30, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

A few points to consider:

• A user's membership of any group should be irrelevant, so don't ask one another about this. At Misplaced Pages we strive to have a neutral point of view in our articles. Obviously, precedence is given to theories that have wider acceptance over fringe theories, which may be covered in less depth or not at all.
• Biographical articles should be just that - articles focussing on the lives of people and their contribution to society. Their actual contribution should be covered in depth at its own article.
• Regarding external links, here are the ones to avoid:

1. Any site that contains factually inaccurate material or unverified original research, unless it is the official site of the article's subject or it is a notable proponent of a point of view in an article with multiple points of view. (See WP:RS for further information on this guideline.)
2. In general, any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article here would have once it becomes an example of brilliant prose.
3. Links that are added to promote a site. See External link spamming.
4. Sites that primarily exist to sell products or services.
5. Sites with objectionable amounts of advertising
6. Sites that require payment to view the relevant content
7. Sites that require external applications (such as Flash or Java) to view the relevant content unless (1) it is the official site of the subject of the article (2) the article is about those media, or (3) the site is being cited as a reference.
8. Foreign-language sites, unless it is the official site of the subject of the article or it contains visual aids such as maps, diagrams, or tables. (See WP:MOS-L for further information on this guideline.)
9. Bookstores. Use the "ISBN" linking format which gives readers an opportunity to search a wide variety of free and non-free book sources.
10. A website that you own or maintain (unless it is the official site of the subject of the article). If it is relevant and informative, mention it as a possible link on the talk page and wait for someone else to include it, or include the information directly in the article.
11. Blogs, social networking sites (such as MySpace) and forums should generally not be linked to. Although there are exceptions, such as when the article is about, or closely related to, the website itself, or if the website is of particularly high standard.

(Source: Misplaced Pages:External links)

With this in mind, let's begin!

A couple of questions/comments before beginning:

Has the mediator seen the (unsigned) comments added by DPeterson to the mediation request? Some are slanderous/libelous (false and defamatory).

Is there anyway to archive the talk page before this section? I get Wiki messages that the page is longer than is recommended, and scrolling through it is a real pain.

Could the Bowlby page be moved to the talk page until mediation is over? It was suggested that it is a "less drastic" than engaging in an edit war. I tried clicking "move", but was informed that I was "too new" a user to be allowed to do that.

Thanks for jumping in. I hope not to give you cause to regret doing so! Sarner 14:57, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I do hope you can resolve this so that useful and related information can be left on the page. I wonder what Brisvegas thinks about and has to say about the comments Sarner continues to make. They seem off point to me. Removing the Bowlby page is just another "ploy" to avoid addressing the issue. The original page, before Sarner's reverts, might be a place to start. I wish the Mediator would inform Sarner to stay on point and avoid the negative personal comments he's previously made (see above). Thank you for your assistance, I remain hopeful. DPeterson

Responses for Mediator

From my view, the article I originally edited was mere advertising. There was a small biographical section, followed by a much longer section touting therapies for children "based" on attachment theory.

There were factual objections to the claims for these therapies, and offered material to counter those claims for balance. Those were reverted.

I realized then that the entire therapy section was inappropriate for a biographical article. So I came on the talk page with a suggestion as a compromise that the therapy section be eliminated altogether. In conjunction with that, certainly links and bibliographic references would also be eliminated as irrelevant. The compromise fell flat with the other side.

So I instead improved the section in question by adopting NPOV as much as I could and adjusting the bibliography, Wiki references, and external links. That drew the battle lines with the other side, with the article flipping between two irreconcilable worldviews, though the other side has the upper hand with the three-revert rule and their version is the one that is up most of the time. (I was reverted within two minutes.)

In a remarkable development, inter alia, the other side merged our two competing versions, which made a complete mish-mash! I see that today one of those on the other side is attempting to remove my material from their version and return to their original.

Along the way, an apparent third-party editor contributed more biographical material. Prose-wise, it wasn't very good, and it had some factual errors, but I incorporated it into my version and have been improving it slightly with each of my reverts. A couple of other editors have also made improvements that I have preserved in my version. Until recently, those improvements have been ignored by the other side and reverted along with the disputed section.

Discussion has failed. I have tried and tried to discuss on the talk page my view and objections, but have gotten nowhere. The vitriol from the other side has steadily risen, except when they have fallen totally silent, usually in response to a demand that they present evidence for their statements.

I do not see any way to reconcile the two versions. I think my present version would achieve more consensus, has better prose and more accurate information, and most importantly is most congruent with Wiki policy (particularly NPOV), than the present version by the other side. I am hoping the mediator (or any other unaligned third party) can see some way that I don't.

Sarner 16:32, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Sarner continues to delete accurate and useful information that a consensus of contributors seem to want to see on this page. Sarner does not seem to be an expert in this area. As previously described, he is a "zealot" with a specific agenda to push. I think his postion as Administrative Director of ACT, among other things makes that clear. Material on the use of Bowlby's theory in practice is interesting and relevant to readers.

Rudeness abounds. The mediator asks for each side to separately state their case, and I am not allowed to state mine without comments being inserted. C'mon, guys, if you want to make this point: (a) sign it; (b) put it in your own section. Why don't you instead spend your time responding to the mediator's request, and let's get on with it. Sarner 22:12, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Again off point by being critical of irrelevant points. Why don't you just stay on topic and address the question raised by the mediator, why you think material on the practial applications of Bowlby's attachment theory does not belong here. DPeterson

We can reconcile the two versions by allowing readers to see material that is about Bowlby and how his theory has such broad applicability and utility. D Peterson

I think there is certainly room and opportunity to find a mutually agreeable solution and I am quite willing to compromise as, I suspect, others are too, although I should not speak for them. DPeterson

Mediator response to above

Perhaps it is too early to start addressing each other, since you are all heavily emotionally involved in this article. Before any more comments are made, please remember this:

• To Sarner: Moving the article to the talk page is not a good idea. Let's work out the issues out on the talk page. Having an article is better than having no article at all. If you feel certain comments are defamatory, point them out and they shall be deleted.
• To DPeterson: Labelling Sarner a "zealot" is not productive, and borders on personal attack. I realise both sides feel strongly about this issue, but we must realise that at the end of the day, what both sides want is a balanced and fair article that does justice to John Bowlby. Keep this in mind.
• To everyone: Attack the contributions, not the person.
• Regarding the section on Bowlby's theory in practice:

I went to several biographies to see what information they contained on the current applications of the theories of their originators:

• • Albert Einstein: A featured article which discusses his research but there is no section on the use of his theories on practice.
  • Wright Brothers: While it mentions their pioneering efforts in achieving flight, the article does not discuss the impact of their work on modern flight.
  • Sigmund Freud: This article on a fellow psychologist does include a rather long section on his legacy.
  • Carl Jung: The article on another psychologist does include a section on his influence on modern psychology. However, it is short and one paragraph long.

In other words, there are precedents for both sides of the argument. There should be a section on the influence of Bowlby's theory on modern psychology. However, most of the analysis of the theory should occur on the attachment theory page. Most importantly, any comments on the theory must be referenced from reputable sources, such as the American Psychological Association.

• Regarding linkspam:

These two sites http://psychematters.com/bibliographies/bowlby.htm and http://attachment.edu.ar/bio.html seem notable enough to include in an external links section. One is maintained by Dr. Juan Carlos Garelli of the Buenos Aires History of Science and Epistemology Research Center while the other lists a bibliography of Bowler's works. In such a case, I would refrain from calling these linkspam.

Whatever eventuates from our discussions, please remember to be civil to one another. Don't call one another zealots or rude. Leave all your previous interactions with one another in the past, as difficult as it sounds. Only after this occurs, can meaningful progress be made. Good luck! Brisvegas 00:52, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

That seems reasonable to me. It seems that what is on the page now under Practice comes close to what is between the Jung and Freud bio's. However, if you think a shortened version would be a more acceptable compromise, I certainly would be willing to consider that. The use of reputable sources and materials from professional-peer reviewed journals and professional organizations (such as APA, NASW, etc.) also seems reasonable and a criteria that I've been adhering to.

DPeterson 01:12, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

There are other, relevant comments on the mediator's talk page that I would like to add here, if that is ok...if the mediator prefers some other linkage, that's fine too. DPeterson 01:24, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I leave out the negative or personal attacks as not being relevant:

1. ::Discussion of how Bowlby's theory is used in practice seems very relevant as it shows how influential he has been and remains.

Aweidman

2. ::I'd like to see Sarner leave the article alone or merely add what may be relevant material and let other reader's comments guide the growth of the material. It is my belief that material on the use of Bowlby's theory in practice and attachment theory is relevant here. Including links to other Wiki articles that are mentioned in the Bowlby article also seem relevant and appropriate. Links to outside pages that describe material are also relevant. While Sarner calls all this SPAM, I disagree as these links provide additional information to readers. MarkWood

3. ::Leave the material in about how Bowlby's attachment theory is being used by practitioners. As a practitioner and licensed mental health professional I believe I have some knowledge and expertise to offer. I've published articles in professional peer-reviewed journals, edited a book, and use, among other methodologies, an approach that is evidence-based and has been supported by a number of prominent professionals in the field. Furthermore, there have been several publications about this approach in peer-reviewed professional journals, it has been accepted as material worthy of presentation at various professional organization annual conference, and has other support. I mention this only to point out that I am knowledgeable about this topic, subject matter, and article. ..but this may not be relevent to the direct question: Should information about how Bowlby's attachment theory is used in practice be in an article about Bowlby. To that question, I would say it is relevant (and others seem to say so too). AWeidman

DPeterson 01:24, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I stated on the mediation page: Leave the edits alone and allow readers to read about Bowlby's attachment theory as applied in practice today to successfully help very disturbed and damaged children DPeterson

DPeterson 01:24, 28 May 2006 (UTC)