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Hello?

Is anybody out there working on this? 5.12.69.171 (talk) 18:32, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

They are. They are also very busy with the Sexology case; I'm expecting to see something here shortly after that one closes. KillerChihuahua 15:32, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

There are also a fair amount of other things occupying our attention. I wouldn't expect to see anything before next week. NW (Talk) 15:40, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Which would certainly fall under "shortly after". :-) KillerChihuahua 16:18, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Well hopefully we will resolve the Sexology case soon, but I think basically everyone is unhappy with that current decision but doesn't know how to proceed on it. Well, that's me anyway. NW (Talk) 18:40, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

You all have my sympathies with that one, that's a murky mess and I'm sure you're all doing the best you can with it. KillerChihuahua 18:49, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Officially one month late! Great work! Heimstern Läufer (talk) 01:46, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

One hopes they will remember this and show tolerance should they be waiting on respondents in a case in the future. They can hardly insist on promptness while requiring patience for their own lack of adherence to schedule. KillerChihuahua 21:57, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

And in general I think we do a fair job of that. But SilkTork is 100% correct below – there has been plenty to distract us as of late and unfortunately, it had to take a bit higher priority than this case. NW (Talk) 18:18, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Structures aside, I think that the real (best hope for and most on-target) fix by Arbcom is what they/ SilkTork are doing at the article itself. North8000 (talk) 10:58, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

• To the drafting arbs (Newyorkbrad and SilkTork): How about striking out and revising the present proposed decision "deadline" (3 April) in the casenav template to some date you think likely, or possible? That's probably not the custom, but IMO it should be. Don't make me link deadline to Wiktionary, now. Bishonen | talk 13:24, 5 May 2013 (UTC).

Frustrates me as well the delay on this. But that is due to matters not on Wiki that diverted the Committee's attention, and NYB in particular. I can assure everyone that the Committee have not been knitting. And that some of the distractions would be classed as very serious, and NYB's involvement was necessary and valued. At NYB's suggestion I took over, and I have just been waiting for the Committee to look over the draft before posting it on Monday. SilkTork 13:49, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

My thanks to everyone for your patience (not that you had any choice about being patient, I know; and I sympathize completely, having been on the other side of the situation before I was an arbitrator). As SilkTork indicates, he took up the baton in preparing this decision, and I appreciate his doing so, and at the same time, apologize my contribution toward the delay in moving the case to a PD. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:23, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Remedy 2

Broadly written this sounds like any edit if it removes anything anyone else has included would be in effect a revert and thus worthy of blocking. This also is unusual as compared to other similar restrictions which I have seen in other areas. What is to stop someone from adding something simply stupid and then being unable to revert? If you make it so that the main editors cannot revert anything...ever.. you basically make it impossible to have a viable project in this area. Arzel (talk) 17:54, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Does anyone know of any article or person where 0RR has worked? (Let me rephrase that. Does anyone know of any situation where a pure 0RR can be distinguished from an editing ban?) A modified 0RR (you cannot revert an edit which restores your previous edit) has been known to work. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:05, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

I find myself agreeing with Rubin here; 0RR is a sticky wicket, virtually indistinguishable from an editing ban unless specifics are added. KillerChihuahua 18:10, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

I think the point of the remedy is to reduce the extent to which the named editors are involved in disputes over the article. If this reduces their ability to revert new contributors to the article, then that is both advantageous and exactly what is intended by the remedy. The named contributors would still be welcome to tidy up new edits to the article (for instance, by expanding new content or fixing references) and to challenge new edits to the article (on the talk page). AGK 10:44, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Inaccurate inference regarding me

I resent the inference created by the "union thugs" mentioned in conjunction with me out of context giving the impression that I wrote it. The workshop covers this in detail It was written by somebody else, and my "insertion" of it was just via my reverting the blanking of an entire section which contained it, and which I was then immediately paring/editing minute by minute (after stating that I was doing such) when I was interrupted by a large reversion. Talk about BLP! Here is a false implied statement about me! North8000 (talk) 18:36, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

When you make an edit, you take responsibility for its content, period. If you restore material written by someone else, then you need to be comfortable assuming responsibility for its content, or else you shouldn't restore it. Your defense here reflects poorly on you - you're essentially saying that you can't be held responsible because you were just reverting for the sake of reverting, without verifying the material in question. MastCell  19:46, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

No that's not what I said or meant. I meant that the inference (that I would deliberately make a BLP violation, or that I wrote that material) is false. And since and I was doing a multi-step minute-by-minute edit, paring the material out of the blanking which I reverted when I was interrupted, I was most likely taking it out when I was interrupted. I don't even remember, since this question was not even brought up until a stale 2 years later. So it was either an easy-to-make error, or something that I wasn't even leaving in, and not an indicator of my attitude regarding BLP, contrary to the innuendos being case by yourself and NW. So, to be clear, I'll say it again. I take wp:blp seriously, and never did and never will knowingly violate it. If I was intending to leave any violating item during that interrupted multi-step edit, it would have been wrong. North8000 (talk) 20:42, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

North, it's silly to send readers in search of where and how this mention was made. It's likely to make many of them lose interest, frankly. For your own sake, you should provide a link for context. (Here it is.) And preferably a link to the diff NW mentioned, too. (I haven't found that one; yes, you're right, NW might have provided it himself.) How do you expect us to know what you're talking about..? Bishonen | talk 21:39, 6 May 2013 (UTC).

Thanks for the link. Well, regarding a diff of something that shows that their inuendo was correct, such does not exist, because the inuendo is false. But I'll provide info and diffs related to the 2 year old item that was trying to be ginned up into something. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 23:36, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

It's nearly a whole section on the Workshop page, so a diff won't do it. And I can't get a link to work because there are multiple sections with the same name. But if you do a text search on the workshop page for "Could you explain your concerns with that dif. It's from two years ago, and was part of an edit war involving several users", that text is at the start of that section. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 23:46, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

I think this may be the thread that is being referred to (at least that link format works for me) and the diff NW mentioned was presumably this one. --Noren (talk) 00:50, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Finally, here is a diff where 'this question was brought up' at the time, including policy-based objections made to that exact diff. The full discussion thread is archived here.--Noren (talk) 01:09, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Noren, I see the "union thugs". I agree entirely with MastCell. Bishonen | talk 01:38, 7 May 2013 (UTC).

Here is the chronology:

• 13:16 July 12, 2011 The discussed material is already in the article, written by others, and PhGustaff blanks the entire section that contains it.
• 13:36 July 12, 2011 I revert the blanking, and in the edit summary said that that is the starting point of a series of edits over minutes to upgrade and source it
• 13:37 July 12, 2011 An edit by me in a series of of edits to upgrade and source it.
• 13:38 July 12, 2011 An edit by me in a series of of edits to upgrade and source it.
• 13:42 July 12, 2011 An edit by me in a series of of edits to upgrade and source it.
• 13:44 July 12, 2011 An edit by me in a series of of edits to upgrade and source it.
• 13:48 July 12, 2011 TFD interrupts my work by blanking the section and the material stays out.

Now, exactly WHAT is somebody claiming that the above shows about me? North8000 (talk) 02:23, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

And having to go back two years to have to find even something that needs a lot of ginning up to make it sound like it shows something bad about me speaks volumes is several ways. North8000 (talk) 02:23, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

• This is all exceedingly confusing, so I will simply say that few proposed remedies—and this includes the remedy in question—are proposed as a result of a single edit. Rebuttals to a remedy should therefore focus on the wider pattern of misconduct that the proposing arbitrator has recognised. AGK 10:50, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm assuming you are referring to the overall situation at the article and not any individual editor. North8000 (talk) 11:09, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

North8000's proposed sanction

With all due respect to the drafting arbiter, I don't think a topic ban from the Tea Party movement is sufficient to address North's problematic editing. Let me offer my apologies for not bringing this up in the workshop or evidence phases - the only reason I didn't is because I could have sworn that it had already been mentioned and would have been addressed in the final decision. With that said, North8000 has a problematic history on at least one other page related to conservative politics, namely Homophobia. I have had this page on my watch list for years and up until a somewhat distant voluntary topic ban, North8000's comments were a consistently disruptive force on that article.

Basically, North8000 engaged in constant POV pushing by attempting to eschew the reliable sources on the subject - which discuss homophobia as a concept - for an etymological deduction which seemingly mitigated the stigma associated with being homophobic in contemporary times. That is, while the reliable sources discuss homophobia as a point of view encompassing opposition to homosexuality, North tendentiously argued that because the roots of "homophobia" include "phobia" then it must mean that charges of homophobia are irrational because homophobes aren't actually afraid of gays (they just "disagree" with homosexuality, or some such nonsense) (@North: sorry if I misinterpreted your argument, please feel free to correct me). It was explained on multiple occasions that WP articles are about subjects and not words, but to no avail until it went before AN/I and North agreed to said voluntary topic ban.

While the AN/I complaint was closed as essentially "no consensus" - and in part due to the voluntary topic ban - many of the opposes were based on faulty reasoning.

I implore Arbcom to read over the AN/I report I linked above - or even just half of it (there are plenty of diffs involved). I know it's long, but I believe it's important when considering that the sanctions being presented are directly relevant to North's disposition as an editor, and not simply on the particular article in question. I think that after reading it you will agree that the topic ban proposed should cover American politics, or to a lesser extent conservative politics, but certainly not just TPM. Thank you for your time, and again, my apologies for the late presentation. Sædon 11:17, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

That is a complete misstatement of the situation. I had some of the guards there come after me just for trying to bring the article to neutral and not disappearing. Their complaint was that I was NOT editing the article, and posting about 24 comments on the talk page in a year. (basically agreeing with the continuous stream of other editors that voice concerns and who they keep chasing away) I said that as a quick pragmatic solution I'd be happy to stay away from the article for a year, provided that it was very clear that such was no indication of being at "fault" for anything. PS shortly afterwords Associated Press (AP) came out with guidelines for the word which reinforced what I was saying. North8000 (talk) 11:48, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

North, I respectfully disagree but doubt we will convince each other. It's entirely possible that I've incorrectly assessed the situation and I trust what ever conclusions Arbcom come to. Regardless of the outcome, I have no intent to bring it up in the future, but I felt it pertinent to address here. Sædon 12:15, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

• North, is your "about 24 comments on the talk page in a year" a typo for "about 266 comments on the talk page in a year ", as stated in the ANI discussion Saedon links to, and as confirmed here? You want to be more careful with that kind of thing, or people will start distrusting what you say. Bishonen | talk 12:25, 7 May 2013 (UTC).

Using WikiChecker finds him with 170 edits in 15 months (way under the "266 in a year" level) ... and 32 talk page edits in one month, of which several were "minor" edits. He accounts for under 7% of edits in that period. Fifth most active on the talk page in that period. Collect (talk) 13:13, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Yeah. I gave a link for my figure; a link which also shows North as by far the top contributor to Talk:Homophobia in the relevant timespan (=the timespan dealt with in the ANI thread from 2012-11-16), namely 2011-11-27 to 2012-11-16. North started editing the page on 2011-11-27 and stopped on 2012-11-18, so I don't see the relevance of "15 months" — which 15 months? You don't give any links for yours. What is it with you people and links? Bishonen | talk 14:21, 7 May 2013 (UTC).

I used the count on the TPM which is the subject of this propose decision so your carping about "Homophobia" is a straw man argument when seen from here THIS DECISION IS NOT ABOUT HOMOPHOBIA. Is that quite clear? Now why the hell is that important here? N8000 has 8 edits on Talk:Homophobia in a period of about 6 months (175 days). Period. Making him tied for the nineteenth most active poster there, with under 2% of the edits on that talk page. . Usually folks here know about Wikichecker, and giving new links to it every time is pretty silly. Collect (talk) 17:56, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, this is degenerating into spin, innuendo and shots, which is the OPPOSITE of what Arbcom is. North8000 (talk) 18:14, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I was going from memory and thinking of the chronology in the "dissection of a myth" section. Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchiveNorth8000 Discussion#Dissection of a myth Looking back, that was that I had 16 edits on the talk page in the 9 weeks preceding the ANI. One was agreeing with the guards on an unrelated topic, one was putting the missing notice in the talk page etc., one was agreeing to the demands of the guards. As I hypothesized there, IMO the response was apparently "Holy crap, North just agreed to do EXACTLY as we asked - trouble in river city - we'd better do something! and then 16 hours later filed a ANI which pretended that that didn't happen. North8000 (talk) 13:43, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

You said you had "about 24 comments on the talk page in a year", my bolding, but you were thinking of something completely different and would like to change the subject? Your memory is crap. Please to check it before you hit save. Bishonen | talk 14:21, 7 May 2013 (UTC).

Yes, per above. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 15:34, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Having 266 edits on the talk page is not the same as having 266 comments. Seems that actually overstates it by around 100. I counted them manually. He was not the most active editor on that page either, though he was the only active editor whose views on homosexuality differed from the liberal perspective. Similarly this current situation arose because of liberal editors trying to remove the conservative editors from the Tea Party page. That, however, is not in the best interests of crafting an objective and reliable encyclopedic work. As Collect notes below, it is important to have all views represented.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 20:58, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Actually, being a libertarian (not a conservative) my views on homosexuality match the liberal / LGBT perspective, but my views on the nastier of LGBT activist's tactics do not, particularly when those tactics are executed in articles contrary to wp:policies. That is what it was about. North8000 (talk) 22:12, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I am not using "liberal" based on its literal meaning, but rather how it is understood in American political parlance. That perspective is actually at odds with the libertarian perspective.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:06, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

What you said both times was fine, I was just clarifying. North8000 (talk) 23:54, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

• My own view is that the committee should not be taking Saedon's original concerns into consideration, though I appreciate how detailed his statement here has been. If North8000 has excluded himself from editing these other conservatism articles, I do not see why we would need to examine his conduct on them. I am also generally reluctant to extend our scope at this late stage, given that further misconduct by North8000 on other conservatism articles at a later date could be dealt with by this committee in separate proceedings (probably by extending through a brief motion any topic ban or sanctions we give him in this case). AGK 11:08, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Basta

We now know that the mediation appears to be working -- which is what ought to have been done before this action. There is precious little evidence that "topic bans" on anyone are actually called for, and plenty of evidence that it is "time to get (editor x) for being "tendentious" which is not sufficient reason for an entire group of new arbitration findings and actions.

We also know the community did not have any consensus on any sanctions - and that sanctions were proposed which had absolutely no basis in reason -- that is, names were used without regard to any actual cause at all, providing no evidence whatsoever, based solely on personal dislike or animus (it appears) of editors who may actually have differing opinions. And it is precisely the allowing of "differing opinions" which is essential to the concept of Misplaced Pages. If we only allow "correct opinions" on topics, we can not call this an "encyclopedia" with a straight fae.

Thus I urge a new finding:

This action has been rendered moot due to mediation. Should the mediation end up as being failed, then a new action may be brought, based on the results and actions during that mediation. You may all go home.

And a new principle:

Differing opinions on topics are essential to the project, and should not be used as a basis for barring any editor from colloegially expressing an opinion.

I realize that there is a lot of time invested in this, including more than a little hot air, but there are times, indeed, to say "Enough! Go home!" Collect (talk) 11:33, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Can you point to how you believe mediation has rendered the case moot? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 13:25, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

1. ArbCom generally declines cases where mediation is underway - and since it is underway, there is an intrinsic conflict with past ArbCom dicta.

2. The mediation is proceeding apace - and it is possible that if it fails, that there would be suitable material for an ArbCom case which is not present in the current case (which has a lot of verbiage, and very little solid content as to current misbehaviour by anyone at all, quite frankly. When 2 year old edits have to be drudged up, one wonders just how urgent the "cure" is).

3. If the mediation succeeds, then what actual good shall have come from this case?

4. Right now, the principles are basically the usual boiler-plate, with no sign that any of them are particulary or notably applicable to the evidence provided (other than 2 year old edits).

So we have a case which does not "solve" anything at the present time, and which does not do much more than be a chronophagous exercise. Collect (talk) 14:18, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

To tell you the truth, I don't think that this case even knows what it is about. One thing that it was clearly about and succeeded at was ending the random-mob-violence snake pit (the ANI that never should have happenned) by shifting it to a basis of looking at the actual evidence. (although a few folks have violated that) So that is one place where the case solved the problem, not just rendered it moot.

The fundamental problem at the article is that the content has been determined by TE rather than discussions/decisions, and the reason for that (long story short) is that (so far) TE (for the people willing to do it) works and is even protected, discussion doesn't and isn't. And the person most involved on this is not even listed as a party so anything related to individual editors who are parties would be a mis-fire. Actually anything that that seeks to help this article that involves going after individual editors would (other than a nudge on TE for a couple) is a mis-fire. 0RR for just past active editors would just have them fade away and be replaced by a new set, doing the same thing. That process has already started.

The moderated discussion combined with locking the article combined with folks knowing that they are under the magnifying glass have together made the situation better than it has been. North8000 (talk) 13:51, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

If tendentious editing is the root problem, then mediation is doomed to fail in the long run. In general, ArbCom's approach to disputes marked by tendentious editing has been to remove the worst offenders via topic-bans, apply revert restrictions, and turn over remaining issues to the admins at WP:AE via discretionary sanctions. The effectiveness of that approach varies (depending, in part, on ArbCom's success in identifying the problem editors), but it sometimes works and its track record is better than that of any other approach I've seen (certainly waaaaay better than the track record of mediation).

Also, the fact that the editing atmosphere has improved during the case is not surprising, as all parties realize that they are under heightened scrutiny. Once the shadow of an open ArbCom case is gone, things will devolve back to the way they were unless some of the parameters are actually changed. MastCell  17:45, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

• To respond to the original point, I will merely say that now arbitration of the dispute has became necessary, it is exceedingly unlikely that we would be able to close the case without any sanctions. Problematic articles inevitably contain disruptive contributors, and disruptive contributors inevitably require sanctions. MastCell's observation that mediation of articles that are plagued by misconduct is unlikely to succeed is greatly relevant; if we turn this over to some poor mediator who's powerless to do much about misconduct, we are assuring this article has another terrible year. No, we certainly need to do something here; it would be a disservice to our readers to let the troubles with this article continue. AGK 11:18, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• • "disruptive contributors inevitably require sanctions" is one of the weirdest statements I have ever seen in my years on Misplaced Pages. One might as well say in a court of law the murder case was brought so 'someone' must be found guilty or the like. This is not a rational nor logical position for anyone to take, especially not a position I would expect an arbitrator to take. The fact a case is opened is not a valid reason to say someone must hang. " we certainly need to do something here" is a splendid example of WP:Tiptibism at its most egregious. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:35, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
    • What a strange position to take. I did not say we need to sanction people just because they are in front of the committee. I did say that the people who have edited disruptively need to be sanctioned because they have edited disruptively. You seem to suggest that we should not sanction misconduct; I submit that that would be utterly strange—arbitration exists to stop these disputes through binding sanctions. A silly essay like that one does not change the fact that sanctions are needed here. AGK 11:42, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
      • I quoted you. If I misquoted you, say so. More fully: I will merely say that now arbitration of the dispute has became necessary, it is exceedingly unlikely that we would be able to close the case without any sanctions. Problematic articles inevitably contain disruptive contributors, and disruptive contributors inevitably require sanctions. Which means you predetermined that if arbitration is "necessary" that you think that those charged and "found guilty" inevitably require sanctions. Since I have this idiotic idea that if a case does not support sanctions as being a solution - and so far there is nothing which indicates to me as an outside observer, that sanctions are needed, then sanctions for the sake of sanctions are silly. YMMV, but I rather think I am not the only person who thinks that the mindset is pure WP:Tiptibism -- that because you can sanction a person that therefore it is your obligation to do so. Even while a moderated discussion is taking place. The real obligation is to say that where sanctions are not proven useful in the case at hand, that it is wrong to impse then just because an impartial arbitrator has the opinion that Problematic articles inevitably contain disruptive contributors, and disruptive contributors inevitably require sanctions. Again - if I misquoted you, say so. If I quoted you accurately, please admit it. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:28, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
        • I did not say that you misquoted me. I said that you repeated what I said without comprehending it. The point is that this is not a case where "we can sanction someone, so we will". It is a case where "somebody is being disruptive, so we need to sanction them". Either you agree that disruptive editors need to be removed from an article for the good of the encyclopedia, or you think they should stay. If you agree, then we have the same view. If you disagree, well, you must consider your position. AGK 12:42, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
          • Where a content dispute is at the basis of a case (as is clearly the case at hand), the position that someone must hang as a precept is wrong, errant, and perverse. "Ban them all for the good of the encyclopedia" is no more logical than "banish the miscreants" was for the UK when they sent people to Australia. Silly then. Silly now. And kindly do not place words in my mouth which I do not say. It ill-suits any impartial person to do so, and since it would be wrong for any editor to misrepresent my position, it is trebly true for an arbitrator to do so. Again -- if a court hears a murder case, it is not required that someone must be found guilty and hanged because we know that someone must have done the murder" <g>. But we seem to be hitting a philosophical point here -- I am philosophically opposed to any impartial arbitrator feeling that "something must be done" just because a case was opened. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:59, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
            • Now, plainly, you know how it feels to have words put into your mouth. I am not saying that "something must be done" (and this is the fourth time that I have had to correct you on this point). I am saying that if we determine an editor has misconducted himself at the Tea Party article, that editor will have to be sanctioned so as to ensure they cannot continue to disrupt the article. I then observed that, with the exception of a handful of cases that have been summarily closed with no final decision, it is generally typical of disputes that come to arbitration that some people will indeed have misconducted themselves (disputes do not come to arbitration unless they are unresolvable, and they are often unresolvable because of serially poor behaviour). I additionally reminded everyone that, when or if we identify such misconduct, it is likely to be met with sanctions. I do not know what "<g>" means. AGK 13:47, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
              • I have read and reread your philosophy. I come up with this: I will merely say that now arbitration of the dispute has became necessary, it is exceedingly unlikely that we would be able to close the case without any sanctions. Problematic articles inevitably contain disruptive contributors, and disruptive contributors inevitably require sanctions. and your iteration which appears fully intentional of "inevitably." "Inevitably" != "likely" as it means Impossible to avoid or prevent. "likely" has nowhere that connotation. As for "<g>", I have now been online for more than three decades, and it means "grin". It is, in fact, documented on a number of websites. and likely it an indicator that I have now read somewhere over five million messages (likely close to six million) and reviewed over 2 gigs of images which were mainly under 50k in size each. Collect (talk) 14:08, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Evening of May 15 -- and most of the proposed sanctions have no votes at all yet at the two month mark ... the veritable essence of chronophagousness, IMHO. Collect (talk) 00:38, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I think that it is evidence that the case has achieved it's one concrete purpose (ending the mob-violence ANI snake pit) and has made small but best-yet progress due to SilkTork's efforts at the article, and that the remainign listed "action items" are not good ideas. North8000 (talk) 00:42, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Admonishments

I noted on the Workshop page that I think KillerChihuahua should be admonished for her conduct during this case as she has personalized and inflamed matters beyond what should be acceptable from an administrator, but I also think admonishments should be considered for other editors as well to serve as alternatives to sanctions. Specifically, it should be considered for editors who are not serious offenders such as Malke. Perhaps a general admonishment or "Editors reminded" to cover the behaviors in the topic area so there will be a template for editors who are less active or who become active there.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:36, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I'm not sure I agree. She misinterpreted some statements (to the point that I would normally say that it would fall into WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT), and unnecessarily inflamed the situation, but I can't think of anything specific. which could be objectively described, which warrants sanctions. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:00, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

I know that I disagree strongly with TDA, across the board. And to be blunt, Killer deserves thanks from the entire Misplaced Pages Community for bringing this matter here. Indeed, I'd support her for ArbCom membership. Sanctions for her? Fah. Jusdafax 03:00, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Admonishments should be considered as an alternative to specific sanctions if the Committee cannot agree on specific sanctions but can agree the editor has not been helpful. I was just saying I don't see admonishments as being appropriate for KC, although, unlike Jusdafax, I can see serious errors she has made. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:00, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

I believe assumption of bad faith would be the most accurate characterization. My summing up of the issues I saw that stuck out was here. Plus, I think it is telling that she focused so much on you and Malke with her evidence on this case, the two people who she apparently regarded as having most aggrieved her personally. You especially she seems to have singled out.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 06:15, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

I think that a close analysis shows that KC did several things that were either erroneous, unfair or very poor choices, (and acting with a bit of a battling mentality) and such were key in creating the giant shitstorm over something that is routine at that article. My comments in the mob-violence-snake-pit (which make sense only in that context) not withstanding, I am the type to just try to "tell it straight" to the person in a matter-of-fact way (nobody is perfect, and most are guided by just hearing it) and then move on and try to be friends. My most prized barnsters are from those that I've butted heads with.. North8000 (talk) 11:43, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• For the record, I had to pick and choose what evidence to give due to space constraints. There was no point duplicating someone else's evidence. So to think my choices were determined by ranking who I thought was the biggest problem is to misunderstand my approach fundamentally. TDA, we all know you want me sanctioned. You don't like me, we get it already. AR, you wish I'd done things differently but A) hindsight is 20/20 and B) everyone is different. I know *I* wouldn't have stirred the pot by calling for sanctions on an uninvolved admin, for example, nor would I call a fellow admin a bitch, even by inference, both of which you seem to find acceptable. KillerChihuahua 18:17, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Actually, it is not the case that I don't like you. What I do think is that there was never any reason for the situation to spiral out of control and that your conduct is a major reason why it did. You have taken sides in this dispute and made the situation personal with several of the opposing parties. At the time goethean asked for you to get involved, there were many uncivil and battleground-style comments that editor had made towards North just a little bit further up, but you either didn't bother to check those comments on the page or you just ignored them. That same thing happened when you posted your combative little "reminder" section a few days later. You admonished Malke for one comment, but made no mention of the comment immediately preceding it where goethean was attacking another editor.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 20:43, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

You're failing to make your case. Your linked post is full of inaccuracies, which frankly would not be worth my time to refute one by one; and your blanket allegations here lack any substance or evidence. However, this seems to be a dead horse anyway, as none of the Arbs seem to share your view. As I've said before, should an Arb ask a question, I'll be happy to answer, but I see no point in wasting time (re)answering your blanket allegations. KillerChihuahua 14:27, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

• I have found little evidence that KillerChihuahua disrupted this article at any time. If her actions were not effective or she was unable to enforce conduct standards on every single comment, I think that would best be explained by the fact that no other administrators were there to offer assistance—not by the suggestion that KC's conduct as an administrator was flawed. AGK 11:23, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment regarding "Enforcement of decision sanctions"

As in a previous case, I am of the view that the provision "Appeals of blocks may be made ... to arbitration enforcement" is too vague to be helpful, because it does not specify who makes the decision about the appeal at WP:AE, and with which degree of consensus. If I recall correctly, in the previous case, the provision was then amended to something like "by consensus of uninvolved administrators at WP:AE". In general, it would be helpful to have more specific general rules about arbitration appeals procedures, as I highlighted in a now-archived clarification request. Do arbitrators still intend to act on that request?  Sandstein  11:15, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

The same applies to the "Standard Enforcement" provision, the title of which should, by the way, probably be capitalised as "Standard enforcement".  Sandstein  11:59, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

I was a bit reluctant because it might end up contradicting the procedural clarification motion that we should...hopefully...be voting on Soon. But I'll add it for now since we already passed a specific provision in WP:ARBRAN and cleaning up two cases isn't that much more work than cleaning up one, if it turns out necessary.

Changing the standard enforcement would require a separate motion, though. T. Canens (talk) 15:19, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Uppercase changed to lowercase for the future. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 15:41, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

This sort of thing should be resolved by our general examination of arbitration enforcement, which was scheduled some time ago for Friday 17 May 2013 (though it will be later if we are still voting on cases on that day). Although I generally prefer lower case to be used for these kind of terms, I'm fine with the capitalisation "Standard Enforcement". AGK 11:27, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment regarding "Enforcement of discretionary sanctions"

I recommend to omit this remedy, which currently reads "Should any editor subject to a discretionary sanction under this decision violate the terms of the sanction, then further sanctions may be imposed as appropriate pursuant to the discretionary sanction remedy." Is that not implicit in the grant of authority at WP:AC/DS? If not, I recommend to add it there, as part of the general rules. Because if this rule is added on a case-by-case basis to individual decisions, then it would be easy to (erroneously) conclude that this means that escalating sanctions, as envisaged by this provision, are not normally allowed as part of discretionary sanctions, and are therefore not permitted in cases which lack such an enforcement provision.  Sandstein  11:22, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the arbs who passed it in older cases intended, but for this case my intention is to clarify that enforcement 1 does not apply to discretionary sanctions. T. Canens (talk) 15:09, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

The wording of the enforcement in this case is drawn from the Shakespeare authorship question case where I framed the enforcement in this way. That was two years ago and the language hasn't caused any problems in that case or any other. I understand the concern that Sandstein is raising (an inclusio unius est exclusio alterius argument by negative implication), but I don't think it's a real risk. Still, I think these enforcement provisions are how things should work in any case anyway, so I wouldn't object to an appropriate modification to the DS page as Sandstein suggests. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:22, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Provision E3 seems to re-state an obvious fact, and I disagree that it creates confusion or a problematic situation in cases where such a remedy is not included, so I am happy for us to include it in our decision. AGK 11:30, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment regarding the definition of "revert" in the 0RR restrictions

The proposed remedies with the wording "... is indefinitely prohibited from making any edit related to the Tea Party movement that could be reasonably construed as a revert" links to Help:Reverting. That page defines a revert as "undoing the effects of one or more edits, which results in the page being restored to a previous version". That is a more restrictive definition than the more commonly used one in WP:3RR, which says: "A "revert" means any edit (or administrative action) that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material". The difference is that according to the first definition, an edit is only a revert if it restores a page to a previous version (that is, with the exact same wording). This means that, for the purpose of the proposed remedies, an edit that undoes the removal of (say) a racial slur by re-adding a slightly different racial slur is not a revert. I doubt that this is what is intended with the remedy, and recommend that arbitrators review the definition of "revert" they want to refer to.  Sandstein  12:11, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

I think that the middle ground for a revert definition in general would be the (broader) 3RR definition, with the qualifier that it be to a recent edit. I've seen claims that, for example, that the (first) removal of something put in years before is a "revert" of that ancient edit. North8000 (talk) 12:22, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Even better would be "... any revert of recently added material which changes the nature or weight of any claim made in the article, other than removal of claims reasonably asserted to be violations of WP:BLP policy." I think this addresses Sandstein's position, as well as inserting the general exemption directly concerning BLP violations. If a person can reasonably assert that material is a violation of BLP, that should be noted here, rather than have endless chronophagous discussions on what is, or is not, an "actual" BLP violation. Collect (talk) 15:16, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I think that it's always a good effort to better define revert, but 0RR would likely make a mess out of things. In short, one can put crap in, but not modify or remove it. Any named editors would most likely disappear, replaced by new people who would do what the system teaches them (discussion never accomplishes anything here, TE always works, you can get away with it because it's too easy to smack the whistle blowers because it is such a huge job to prove.) What it really needs is something that will change the playing field. North8000 (talk) 15:47, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

• This remedy has in any event been voted down by every arbitrator who has voted so far (except the proposing arbitrator). However, I do not agree that the definition at Help:Reverting is unduly restrictive; a "previous version" would simply mean a version of the article that does not contain content added by another editor a closely-preceding change. AGK 11:34, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

In Re: Community sanctions lifted

• Support standard 1RR per Courcelles. Malke 2010 (talk) 12:50, 11 May 2013 (UTC)Community sanctions lifted

RFC/U for Arzel

Because Arzel has community support for a topic ban, a WP:RFC/U might be a decent means to meet any larger issues. Most of the user that voted for the topic ban were properly voting based on general interactions in American Politics, not the Tea Party. Therefore, sending this to WP:RFC/U might be a means to handle that issue. I started a conversation about it at the admin notice board, here. Casprings (talk) 02:10, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

And if ArbCom sanctions Arzel, that would mean they weighed the evidence. If they don't - same thing. Having an RfC/U which usually would be done before an ArbCom case is simply "two bites of the apple" for those who dislike that editor, especially since the evidence appears strong that it is not behaviour but normal content disputes which are involved. I think you should look at the moderated discussin on the TPM article before making further judgments. Cheers. Collect (talk) 02:17, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I think his issues are wider than the tea party movement. As such, I think WP:RFC/U would be a good place to take a look at it. There are a large number of editors who believe the same. I think the discussions bear that out. Not enough evidence with the tea party movement, but the fact that their is a clear community consensus to topic ban must be dealt with. You can't just ignore a clear community consensus. Casprings (talk) 03:10, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I voted against the topic ban as it stood, since it was little more than a lynching based on personal animus, given the limited amount of evidence presented. Really, an RfC/U should have been done before this nonsensical case, but since this is about the Tea Party topic in general, it would not be obscene to have a broader discussion of specific editors involved. Presumably, any RfC/U would focus on concerns about an editor's conduct beyond this topic area.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 03:18, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes. While there may not be enough evidence with Arzel's edits on the tea party, you have a clear consensus for a topic ban. You can't just ignore that. I would assume most of the editors were voting based on issues with him in American Politics in general (which I did). As such, RFC/U would be a good forum to explore those edits and deal with that consensus for a topic ban. Casprings (talk) 03:28, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

You misapprehend what RfC/U is for, and what it is not for. What you seek is what it is not for. Collect (talk) 11:37, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I would think something that did this,

What RfC/U CANNOT do is:

• Impose/enforce involuntary sanctions, blocks, bans, or binding disciplinary measures;

What RfC/U CAN do is:

• Allow a number of users to collaborate in discussing wider issues they see with a particular editor's conduct.
• Allow an editor who is the subject of an RFC/U to understand the problems, and change or explain their conduct.
• Allow users to share information which might be relevant for later steps in the dispute resolution process, should that become necessary.

}}

• An RfC is a tool for developing voluntary agreements and collecting information.
• An RfC may bring close scrutiny on all involved editors. In most cases, editors named in an RfC are expected to respond to it. The Arbitration Committee closely considers evidence and comments in RfC if the editors involved in the RfC are later named in a request for arbitration.
• See also RfC/U rules.

would be just what the doctor ordered. Flush out if there are actuall problems, help Arzel understand the problems, and go from there. Am I missing something?Casprings (talk) 12:28, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

You seem to simply be upset because I don't think your article regarding Rape and pregnancy controversies in United States elections, 2012 is worthy of a Feature Article. Considering that most of my edits there have consisted of BLP concerns and Original Research concerns (with no edits since March) I am amazed that you would bring this to here. I have raised a valid concern that you are attempting to prove that the events of Todd Akin et al. resulted in Obama's % of Women vote in the 2012 election. To suggest that reliably sourced information (in context) showing that Obama received the same % of Women vote in 2008 (+/- 1% depending on the source) cannot be included only shows clearly what you are attempting to do. Apparently, you must feel that your only solution is to remove me from the conversation. Arzel (talk) 05:22, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Arzel, please do not make assumptions about another editor's motives. AGK 11:38, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

It is not an assumption when the motives are abundantly clear. Arzel (talk) 13:52, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid it is an assumption of bad faith to conclude that an editor must be bearing a grudge against you because you opposed an FAC on an article which they expanded. Although I have no idea which of you is correct, it also strikes me as quite ungracious not to simply rebut the substantive accusation—and leave the speculation as to your colleague's motives out of your comment. Just something to think about (and to bear in mind when contributing to these arbitration case pages, which require people not use them to play out earlier disputes). AGK 13:56, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Did you not read what I provided? Casprings is pushing for a feature article on the Rape and Pregnancy controversies of the 2012 election. I have felt from the beginning that the entire article is little more than a personal research paper being done on WP and have particular problems with some of the conclusions that Casprings is trying to present as fact. I have opposed Casprings on both their attempts to promote this to a FA and now on the second attempt this user submits this action against me. I am not sure how you can not come to the conclusion that this is a retaliation for my comments (my comments, not even my edits) regarding that particular page. If you go to the FA submission page you may get a better idea of why it is quite clear. Arzel (talk) 14:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I have found many of your edits problematic, as I somewhat noted in the community consensus for a topic ban. As to the current FAC review, the issues you raised are at clear consensus both on the talk page and at WP:ORN. To me, this is an issue with WP:Venue Shopping and is also problematic. That did cause me to look at the state of this case and determine that the case is likely to be confined to only TPM. As such, something should be done to deal with what is an a clear community consensus.Casprings (talk) 14:36, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• Responding to the original point, we are broadly trying to confine our examination to the TPM article and very closely related pages. You are therefore correct to suggest that more general problems with the conduct of a party should be dealt with outwith this case and in the usual venues. AGK 11:38, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

An wp:ani or wp:ani on a vague topic is just a measure of how many people are wiling to commit mob violence to ether pursue a grudge or to try to get rid of somebody or reduce their efforts) (e.g. to stop or reduce their efforts to make articles neutral/npov.) The common tactic is to make false negative generalization about the person, and give a diff or something (with a spin description) that many won't notice does not establish the false generalization. So those is no way a an or ani on a vague topic is measure of "community support". Arbcom is the place that goes by analysis of evidence, not false or unsupported shouts that came from the mob. North8000 (talk) 15:24, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

And a place to determine the nature of those editors comments would be WP:RFC/U. If it is a lynch mob, than that should be reasonable easy to show there. If it isn't, that should be shown. However, for Arzel, the issue go beyond TPM. With that being the case, one should not and cannot simply ignore a community consensus. There is a process that could examine the issue and it should be used in this case. Casprings (talk) 15:29, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Just clarifying, I was not arguing against an RFC/U. RFC/U's are actually semi-civilized and more evidence-based in comparison. I was just pointing out that anything from a vague behavior-accusation wp:an or wp:ani is not an indication of "community support". Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 15:39, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Consensus is "an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns." We have a strong majority of editors that thought there were legitimate concerns for Arzel. Why not explore those concerns in what you admit is an "evidence-based" process.Casprings (talk) 16:06, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• Comment I went ahead and started a WP:RFC/U, here. Casprings (talk) 19:05, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Rape and pregnancy controversies in United States elections, 2012

simplify the boilerplate

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Comments? Collect (talk) 18:11, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Well you did pick up the most prevalent form of really really really really nasty behavior "misusing Misplaced Pages processes" which was missed and is highly relevant in this case. North8000 (talk) 21:18, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Collect: These are good. I don't think simplifying our standardised set of principles is so urgent an objective that we need to re-vote on all these principles, but the committee could certainly strive to simplify the principles in its decisions in the future. AGK 22:17, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

TY - my background is science and not law <g> but I did have to write a bunch of by-laws for various organizations in the past, so tend to think short and clear is best. Collect (talk) 00:19, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion by Arbitrators

Regarding the conversation here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea_Party_movement/Proposed_decision#Discussion_by_Arbitrators, all due respect to Silk Tork, but saying that it's okay to give a topic ban to editors who don't really deserve one because it's the "price to pay" is totally unreasonable and there is no Misplaced Pages policy that justifies that. I had no involvement in this case other than being named here. I was not part of the original discussions that involved KC on the article talk page. I made brief comments, well after that, about the state of the article only. That's it. I was not editing the article. When this started, I had not edited that page since December 2010, and had only made two brief visits to the talk page, each one a full year apart.

KillerChihuahua made an error when she included me. I understand her confusion at the time this occurred, but I was not a participant in any of the issues that brought this case here and no one has shown otherwise. I've only stayed around now because when KC involved me here, it put me in the unfair position of having to defend myself. I've participated in the moderated discussion as best I can, but I don't plan to edit the article after it's unlocked. That should be fairly obvious by now since I've given up on the talk page, and I don't edit the new subarticles. I have not done anything to deserve a topic ban. I agree with Roger Davies that editors who have been there continuously for the past 3 years should be banned because if they haven't got it sorted by now they never will. I'm not part of the continuous bickering, tendentious editing, personal attacks, and edit warring that got the article here, and I don't believe I deserve to be included in the punishment just because it's "the price to pay." Malke 2010 (talk) 18:41, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Agree. "Topic ban" has negative connotations which are not warranted. And the TE past has been determined to a great extent by "what works". (TE works, trying to get a resolution in talk doesn't) It needs a change of the environment, not a change of editors. The latter would just cause a repeat of the situation. Even just leaving the article fully locked would be a better choice than that. North8000 (talk) 18:48, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

@Malke 2010. I have fewer concerns relating to your involvement in the article than that of others. My preferred solution for edit restriction for the main contributors is not gaining traction, and the case has stalled. I would not welcome proposals for individual topic bans as I feel there are group dynamics involved here, and if some folks get banned, but not others, I question how the article would proceed, and who else would then get involved to "redress the balance". AGK's comment: "Many of these contributors have spent quite long enough on this article; they've had their chance at improving it", is striking a chord with me, and I would seriously consider supporting a ban on the main editors. Clean out the old editors - allow some new ones in - see what happens. It's worth bearing in mind that ArbCom is not about being nice or fair, nor is it a court of law - the purpose is simply to end a difficult dispute. People hope that ArbCom can come up with nuanced and elegant solutions to disputes - unfortunately that is rarely the case. Often the reason a dispute ends up at ArbCom is because there is no reasonable solution - people have tried and failed. And the members of ArbCom do not have more brilliant minds than others on Misplaced Pages - they/we are simply the folks who have been voted in to make binding decisions. And a decision needs to be made in this case. SilkTork 14:42, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

(e/c)No, you cannot claim "group dynamics" and just sweep me up when I shouldn't be here in the first place. Define 'group dynamics' and show the diffs that support I'm involved. You are acting out of a false assumption. You are assuming that by not banning me, I will have an advantage. What advantage do you reckon that would be?

Over the last 3 years, where are my contributions that have led to this case being brought here? There aren't any diffs. Killerchihuhua hasn't shown any diffs that justify my being here. You've none. If you want to protect Xenophrenic and Goethean, please find another way of doing it without throwing me under the bus.Malke 2010 (talk) 16:11, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I think that that "cure" (something that other people will use as a scarlet letter) is far worse than the disease which is just another eternally contentions unstable article, as nearly all Misplaced Pages articles on contentions topic are. Plus one new person (who would not be involved) is already doing more of the same than 3/4 of the pre-arbcom editors, so you already would have an immediate failure with that idea.

Plus the arbcom case has already succeeded in it's most important realistic objective....shutting down that unwarranted, baseless mindless random bloodfest at that ANI. To an evidence based-venue which clarified the reality. North8000 (talk) 15:36, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

There are some good points made. I'm not, however, proposing bans, and I'm not saying I would support a proposal - but I would seriously consider a proposal if one were made. I'm not seriously considering it now, because it's not on the table - and if it were, I would look again at everyone's participation. But I take on board quite firmly the notion that it may be the article itself that is the greater problem rather than the contributors, as that is a notion I have been kicking around from quite early on in my looking into this affair, and I may well have already mentioned that. We could remove this set of editors simply to replace them with another set who encounter the same frustrations. I am wondering if it might be better to suspend the ArbCom case to allow the moderated discussion time to see if the article can be stabilised and so remove the cause of the friction and frustration. SilkTork 23

12, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

re: Proposed findings of fact: Goethean (alt)

I'd like to respond to NewYorkBrad's comment. I expressed regret here for one of the reverts (this one) and for an inaccurate edit summary. Additionally, two of the edits, as far as I can see, simply moved text around without removing any text, and gave precedence to external/secondary sources rather than to primary sources. The other two edits undid the removal of material. — goethean 20:09, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

The odd thing about some of these reverts to me is that the article oscillated from containing one description of the Tea Party based on (a component of) its official website, and other description from an outside source, with the implication that only one or the other was correct or could be used. The diffs here don't show (maybe there are others that are relevant) effort to utilize both sources as showing different or complimentary perspectives on the movement.

Although Tea Party Patriots calls itself the official website of the Tea Party, I don't think that there is wide acceptance (on- or off-wiki) of that claim. If there were a single official Tea Party website, it would make the writing of the article a much, much easier task for all. Because there is no widely accepted official Tea Party website, several websites are listed. A secondary source (in this case a NYT article), I thought, should be listed first, in addition to the primary sources. — goethean 20:16, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Not familiar with or weighing in on any potential behavioral issues, but I think that "representativeness" is a matter of degree. Being a prominent national organization within the TPM certainly pushes it higher on the scale, and anything having indication that it has the support of that organization (i.e. on their website) pushes it higher. Still can't be considered to speak for or characterize the TPM as a whole, but a much stronger indicator of such than, for example, what an anti-TPM writer says. And n the latter case, the writer is more of a participant than a source. (not saying that that particular case was such) North8000 (talk) 22:55, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Goethean, I could be wrong, but I don't think NewYorkBrad is talking about you specifically. I think he's talking about the edits to that section in general. Malke 2010 (talk) 00:09, 22 May 2013 (UTC)