Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 14:41, 29 May 2006

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as of Jan. 16, 2003 Sept. – Dec. 2005 January 2006 Jan. – Feb. 2006 February 2006 Feb. 2006, cont. March 2006 April 2006

Enough is Enough

Allright fucker, we all know the stuff about you really being a female and stuff. However, stop interjecting you comment about you wanting to suck Osama Bin Laden's ball in the Osama Bin Laden Page. Consider yourself warned, next time you're outta here for good. 61.102.220.70 14:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Quick clarification of image commerciality

If we receive permission from, say, Mozilla to use the Firefox logo for any nondisparaging purpose that does not compete with Mozilla merchandise, is that a "no commercial" license unacceptable for our use (outside fair use), or is it a free license? It would mean that in the context of any kind of mirror, reproduction, modification, etc. of Misplaced Pages, the image would be usable; you'd have to actually do something like print it onto a T-shirt and sell it to violate the terms of use. Should we use that or fair use? —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 04:15, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

And how would we enforce the bit about "nondisparaging purpose"s? The policy as I understand it is that such permissions don't matter; it's still an unfree image, usable only under fair use. Yes, that means that combined with the strict fair-use policies, you can't use them on user pages. Yes, that has deeply hurt many people's feelings. I'm not sure why they don't get some free web hosting space to build the home page they really want, but that's just me. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 04:39, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Is this a userpage or a Village pump? My question was about not allowing permission. Your' telling me I am not allowed to use images with permission is exactly what I want Jimbo to Clarify. I asked Jimbo as a last resort. I expect him to answer.--E-Bod 04:48, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Why would I want to talk about

1. Relevant wikipedia articles
2. How I edit wikipidia
3. Where I have a Conflict of interest when editing a wikipedia article

on a free web hosting space. My userspace is to help me use wikipedia. I can't edit wikipedia on a free web hosting space. Anyway this is the wrong place to talk about this issue. I know what WP:NOT and your comment is irrelevant.--E-Bod 05:02, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

If you want I can Explain how I can use Permission company logos in each of these examples. Don't take one policy and claim it says something different. That is the point i am bringing to Jimbo about a point he made that may be misused by admins. You are simply a user with tools. Policies should be stated outright without room for interpretation or lack consideration for unaddressed issues.--E-Bod 05:11, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

It's unlikely Jimbo will answer you. He doesn't answer most talk-page questions. Mostly, yes, this is a village pump.

Anyway, on consideration, I've retagged the image as {{logo}}. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 04:37, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

hello jimbo i need help

kevin1243 is not leting me put a criticims part on the tommorow book series page it is his favourite series and he will not let me put the criticisms on everytime i do he deletes them vandalises my user page or makes up stories to try get me blocked please help jim

The truth about the tomorrow series must be heard

please reply to user talk: carbine (post made by User:Smugface the untrustworthy dwarf)

Tdxiang's song!

My song, sir! Hope you guys like it. :D-- 陈鼎翔 贡献 Chat with Tdxiang on IRC! 10:54, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

AfD reform

Hi. I don't believe as many people review Template:Cent as they do this page, so I'm using it to bring attention to my proposal for AfD reform. El_C 12:35, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Free wiki host stole wikipedia logo

I'm not sure if this is the right forum to present this information, but the free wiki-host ElWiki uses the Misplaced Pages Globe logo combined with the text "ElWiki Knowledgebases" as the default Wiki.png file on new wikis. Basically, they're taking the copywritten logo and not attributing it to Misplaced Pages or Wikimedia. -- Chris Ccool2ax contrib. 21:52, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

For reference, here's a direct example of what he's talking about. Garrett 22:20, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

If that wiki changes the logo, I can get a copy... which reminds me: I really should change my ElWiki logo about now. -- Chris Ccool2ax contrib. 13:42, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Reported to the Trademarks committee. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 13:45, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Statement on elimination of anon voting?

Hi Jimbo, I have a question for you. On Talk:George Washington, someone recently suggested the article should be permanently protected from unregistered users due to persistent vandalism. Terence Ong mentioned that people have suggested protecting the entire Wiki from anonymous editing, but that you had "said no" to previous attempts.

The only reason I raise the issue is because Kaiwen1 has a poll going on whether to ban anon editing, the results of which he's planning to forward to the Board of Trustees. I'm still pretty new here, so I don't know exactly how much authority you, personally, wield over issues like this. Is Kaiwen1's vote a waste of time? I'm curious as to what you have said in the past that Terence Ong remembers so clearly. I asked Terence , but he never replied.

(Full disclosure: I'm against blocking anon editing, and voted so on Kaiwen1's page.)

Kasreyn 23:49, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Similarities

Between your talk page and Fraggle Rock#The Trash Heap are uncanny! Just an observation... Cheers -- Samir धर्म 03:16, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Fair use criteria being policy

Do you approve of the current Misplaced Pages:Fair use criteria being policy. I know you are busy. A simple "yes" or "no" would be great.

Thank you for your time, Travb (talk) 13:48, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

A simple "yes" would be great if that's your answer, but if your answer is "no", it would be nice to know why not. (For example, do you think the policy is too strict, or too lenient?) Angr (t • c) 16:29, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Also A clarification On Images used with permission when a free alternative is not possible to obtain as in the case of logos. Any free alternative would still be a derivative.--E-Bod 21:35, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Game guides on Wikibooks

Given the harmless nature of such guides are you sure that they should be banned from Wikibooks? They are contained in their own section, the distinction between games such as Doom and Chess is debatable and, in the last couple of years it has become possible to actually trade inside games see Business week story. The users at Wikibooks are definitely uneasy about the ban. My userid is RobinH at Wikibooks.

Drawing the line seems very easy to me. There is a simple question: can you point to a course at an accredited institution which uses this sort of thing as a textbook? I think there are college courses on chess. I think there are not college courses on Doom. Simple. Some people may not like that Wikibookians do not want Wikibooks to be a dumping ground for whatever doesn't fit in Misplaced Pages. But we have a charitable mission, and we need to respect that. --Jimbo Wales 21:46, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you totally boss.(Considering I don't edit on Wikibooks), but your statement there might get met with controversy, as there ARE some college courses based on pop culture, like video games. All I'm saying is I don't want that to be another CSD T1. --D-Day) 21:49, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, if there are courses, then there can be textbooks. :) --Jimbo Wales 22:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Your note on the Staff Lounge has clarified this debate. I, for one, had not understood that there were legal constraints. Cheers. RobinH

We have the Doom Wiki with plenty of room for Doom strategy information. And if there isn't a Wikia about your favorite game, you can go there and start it. As much as I like games, game guides just aren't part of Wikimedia's mission. Fredrik Johansson 23:11, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

What about the b:Muggles' Guide to Harry Potter, which I put up for deletion? Gerard Foley 00:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I imagine it would depend. Are there classes that would use an annotated look at Harry Potter? If so, it would be valid. If not, it may need to go. On a side note, we gonna ask Jimbo on every book we put up deletion? ;-) --You Know Who 00:58, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

It's a major change to Wikibooks, I don't think it's asking too much to get a few examples of what's OK. Gerard Foley 01:36, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, as was discussed on WP:CVG, "the StrategyWiki team (including myself) have made preparations to import all suitable videogame guides. This is not going to be a half-hearted history cut-'n'-paste like transwiki bots do either, instead the authentic full edit histories will be imported directly from database dumps thanks to the excellent MWDumper." (Comment was made by Garrett). I think that this would be an ideal situation. If at some point in the future colleges do start to give courses teaching students to become "professional gamers" or something, they could always be re-imported using a similar technique. jaco♫plane 01:06, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Details of 501(c)(3) are given at: Tax exempt status for your organization. The charter for Wikimedia is at : Bylaws of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.. Please could you point to where these exclude documents such as game guides, or have I missed a crucial document? Robinhw 09:41, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Idea

Jimbo, I'm testing out an idea and I'd be interested in your feedback. Misplaced Pages has many great and long articles. Many vistors to the site however may simply be looking for very short snappy summaries. I've created an infobox called synopsis which could be placed near to the table of contents, to contain a two or three line synopsis of the article. For example

Template:Infobox synopsis

Any opinions on the idea? FearÉIREANN\ 01:05, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Isn't that what the lead section is supposed to do? --Carnildo 01:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Not necessarily. On most pages here the lead paragraph is merely an introduction before delving into the topic, rather than an overview of the topic. Take a look at Pope for instance. In this case the intro is a good one, but it certainly doesn't cover everything below it. It doesn't even tell who the current Pope is! Garrett 11:45, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

In that case, the lead section should be fixed. Fredrik Johansson 13:58, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Unfortuntately all too many fixes produce edit wars from those who think their rambling openings are OK. In addition many articles are (correctly) written in a detailed style that younger users mightn't be able to follow. The infobox can be written deliberately in simple language as an opener for young users, to tell them in simple language, in one or two sentences, what the article is about. for example, Template:Infobox synopsis Template:Infobox synopsis FearÉIREANN\ 21:39, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

That's what we have simple: for. I'm against this. —Nightstallion (?) 13:18, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

quv!

There's your name written in a Klingon typeset. tlhIngan Hol 'oH HoS, rur SoH! vIHHa' SoH SoQ tlhIngan Hol Misplaced Pages! :P Computerjoe's talk 20:04, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Apropos of your note at Talk:Jimmy Wales

For what is it worth, I think it is in my rational self interest to care about what happens to kids in Africa, and far from being destructive of my self-interest, it is beneficial to my self-interest. Even as "destructive of" isn't likely the locution I'd have employed, I must commend you for having made a point so often overlooked by those who criticize objectivists (or even, in some cases, libertarians), viz., that one may, for whatever reason (inculcation by parents/society, apprehension of religious obligation, preternatural disposition, etc.), find pleasure/relief in helping others, such that he/she may act in a fashion consistent with his/her self-interest but ancillarily (or even primarily) be concerned with acting salutarily vis-à-vis others. I take as axiomatic that humans, as all living creatures, act wholly self-interestedly, but I also believe that humans (perhaps unlike some other living creatures) sometimes derive joy from helping others, such that an individual's self-interest may correspond to the interest of another. (I realize the point of your post wasn't to illustrate this, but I was happy to see it in any event; your criticisms of the article were, to be sure, accurate as well) Joe 21:42, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I have digged through your comments, fact checked and changed accordingly when I think the facts where not supporting the claims in the article. -- Kim van der Linde 14:16, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

The best response is no response?

It seems that every time i try to talk to anybody around here, things end up deleted or changed. Chronic problem. At least this time it was actually apparently you who did it. Nice change. Are you just going to delete and ignore the people who are trying to get you to see the problems that exist? How about fixing the problems?

Your social experiment can't work under the weight of political warfare. Abuse is rampant, the abused have no real recourse. Gaming the system is too simple, and enough people are doing it that it is now part of what is simply required to be here. You don't have a creative or collaborative encyclopedia; You have a psycholigcal war zone.

What are you going to do about it? My suggestion, as an Expert in Sociology, Psychology, Systems Theory, Communications Theory, And Political Science is that The problem stems from the sheer quantity of ignorant pov warriors versus the smaller number of available experts, and the techniques and tactics that can be employed against reason, fact, knowledge, ot sense. I see the same problem Larry Sanger Saw, But i know that the solution isn't to become elitist, it is instead to create interactions that are meritocratic instead of based in pack psychology and mob or riot group movements.

LOGIC, which is what ANY serious educational or informational service has to eventually use, is the only solution to your problems. Logic ends most of the tools used by pack psychology, ends psychological warfare tactics, exposes ignorance and lies and misinformation, as well as bad reasoning, and levels the playing feild enough so that an Expert has a chance to actually confront that mob.

Unless you ban me, or I am blocked, I'll continue to attempt to talk with you about this problem, and it will start to pop up in as many places as i looks like it needs in order to get the attention it deserves. Avoidance isn't going to solve the problems, and, to be truthful, blocking me is only getting rid of the one thing that could have bailed you out; A lucid whos Agenda is to help you write the best encylopedia ever; who nonetheless understands the facts of the entropy you are experiencing and who knows how to deal with it and what the solutions to those problems are.

It will be better for you, and for everybody concerned, if you adress the problems, and work with those who are capable of being lucid relevant to those problems to solve those problems. Unless your goal is to have entropy and pack psychology dominate the world, and to be yet one more example of how politics and pack psychology enforce intentional ignorance and doublethink propagandas.

Lets start with square one. Knowledgable experts ought to be able to as much as float an outline on a talk page without having it deleted by pov warriors whos agenda is to keep the conversation in drama. People who are seriously abused by others ought to have realistic and swift recourse regarding that abuse. People should not be allowed to stack RFCs with their freinds. People should not be allowed to stack votes for deletion with their freinds. People should not be allowed to attack others and then cite them for personal attacks if they as much as respond with a simple mirrored reflection of the original attack. Pov warriors should not have pet rogue admins blocking people on trumped up charges to silence them for making noise about serious abuses. Misplaced Pages should not be psychological combat. And Yet, it is.

Since it vanished into the ethers, lets recap the more angry and to the point message you failed to answer.

Misplaced Pages IS evil

It is host to the same big political groupthink game that goes on in all of the rest of civilization. It is a battleground for propaganda warfare, a lawless game in which anything can be said as long as its in "neutral" language even if its a propagandists lie, and even if it exists only to dispute a known fact. It is a place notable mostly for what it conspicuously lacks. There are in general thousands of articles which tell us about as much as a High Schooler might, and which then devolve into factoids and rhetoric. The expertise of depth knowledge is missing. No expert would submit themselves to a situation of patent pack psychology informational riot. Misplaced Pages is Evil. And You, Jimbo Wales, are the guy who created it. Maybe you should try some Formal Logic in the mix. Maybe this "Randian" Environment could use some controls on its chaos vectors. Maybe even a realistic and functional methodology for dealing with abuse might be in order.

Nice graphic box at the top of the page says to go post at the admin desk,. Funny, i tried that, and got less than no result. Abusiveness is rampant and the organization is headless. I can tell Misplaced Pages in fifty places what its problems are and how to solve them, but wikipedias nose is in the air, and the God king doesn't seem to read his talk page. What you have here isn't an encyclopedia, and in pretending, all that it offers a legitamate participant over the long term is abuse. The admin desk won't help you if you are being attacked and baited with ad hominems; they don't even know what one is. They aren't required to pick up any education to become admins; they come with the standard prole "opinion" fully intact, and no knowledge to back anything up.

Good luck with your evil science social sciences project. Let me know if you want any help to fix it. Prometheuspan 00:09, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Larry Sanger has the same diagnosis that i do. I have more to offer in terms of how to solve the problem. But not whilst being blocked by trolls and their pet admins for making the effort.

"Misplaced Pages has, to its credit, done something about the most serious trolling and other kinds of abuse: there is an Arbitration Committee that provides a process whereby the most disruptive users of Misplaced Pages can be ejected from the project.

But there are myriad abuses and problems that never make it to mediation, let alone arbitration. A few of the project's participants can be, not to put a nice word on it, pretty nasty. And this is tolerated. So, for any person who can and wants to work politely with well-meaning, rational, reasonably well-informed people--which is to say, to be sure, most people working on Misplaced Pages--the constant fighting can be so off-putting as to drive them away from the project. This explains why I am gone; it also explains why many others, including some extremely knowledgeable and helpful people, have left the project.

The root problem: anti-elitism, or lack of respect for expertise. There is a deeper problem--or I, at least, regard it as a problem--which explains both of the above-elaborated problems. Namely, as a community, Misplaced Pages lacks the habit or tradition of respect for expertise. As a community, far from being elitist (which would, in this context, mean excluding the unwashed masses), it is anti-elitist (which, in this context, means that expertise is not accorded any special respect, and snubs and disrespect of expertise is tolerated). This is one of my failures: a policy that I attempted to institute in Misplaced Pages's first year, but for which I did not muster adequate support, was the policy of respecting and deferring politely to experts. (Those who were there will, I hope, remember that I tried very hard.)

I need not recount the history of how this nascent policy eventually withered and died. Ultimately, it became very clear that the most active and influential members of the project--beginning with Jimmy Wales, who hired me to start a 💕 project and who now manages Misplaced Pages and Wikimedia--were decidedly anti-elitist in the above-described sense.

Consequently, nearly everyone with much expertise but little patience will avoid editing Misplaced Pages, because they will--at least if they are editing articles on articles that are subject to any sort of controversy--be forced to defend their edits on article discussion pages against attacks by nonexperts. This is not perhaps so bad in itself. But if the expert should have the gall to complain to the community about the problem, he or she will be shouted down (at worst) or politely asked to "work with" persons who have proven themselves to be unreasonable (at best).

This lack of respect for expertise explains the first problem, because if the project participants had greater respect for expertise, they would have long since invited a board of academics and researchers to manage a culled version of Misplaced Pages (one that, I think, would not directly affect the way the main project is run). But because project participants have such a horror of the traditional deference to expertise, this sort of proposal has never been taken very seriously by most Wikipedians leading the project now. And so much the worse for Misplaced Pages and its reputation.

This lack of respect for expertise and authority also explains the second problem, because again if the project participants had greater respect for expertise, there would necessarily be very little patience for those who deliberately disrupt the project. This is perhaps not obvious, so let me explain. To attact and retain the participation of experts, there would have to be little patience for those who do not understand or agree with Misplaced Pages's mission, or even for those pretentious mediocrities who are not able to work with others constructively and recognize when there are holes in their knowledge (collectively, probably the most disruptive group of all). A less tolerant attitude toward disruption would make the project more polite, welcoming, and indeed open to the vast majority of intelligent, well-meaning people on the Internet. As it is, there are far fewer genuine experts involved in the project (though there are some, of course) than there could and should be.

It will probably be objected by some that, since I am not 100% committed to the most radical sort of openness, I do not understand why the project that I founded works: it works, I will be told, precisely because it is radically open--even anarchical.

I know, of course, that Misplaced Pages works because it is radically open. I recognized that as soon as anyone; indeed, it was part of the original plan. But I firmly disagree with the notion that that Misplaced Pages-fertilizing openness requires disrespect toward expertise. The project can both prize and praise its most knowledgeable contributors, and permit contribution by persons with no credentials whatsoever. That, in fact, was my original conception of the project. It is sad that the project did not go in that direction.

One thing that Misplaced Pages could do now, although I doubt that it is possible in the current atmosphere and with the current management, is to adopt an official policy of respect of and deference to expertise. Misplaced Pages's "key policies" have not changed since I was associated with the project; but if a policy of respect of and deference to expertise were adopted at that level, and if it were enforced somehow, perhaps the project would solve the problems described above.

But don't hold your breath. Unless there is the equivalent of a revolution in the ranks of Misplaced Pages, the project will not adopt this sort of policy and make it a "key policy"; or if it does, the policy will probably be not be enforced. I certainly do not expect Jimmy Wales to change his mind. I have known him since 1994 and he is a smart and thoughtful guy; I am sure he has thought through his support of radical openness and his (what I call) anti-elitism. I doubt he will change his mind about these things. And unless he does change his mind, the project itself will probably not change. "

It isn't the people per sey, its the way that they manage to interact, the simple lack of Logic and the defensibility of ignorance in a vaccuum. Prometheuspan 01:06, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

• Prometheuspan, have you tried filing an RfC or and RfAr against whatever or whomever has offended you so? Coming to Jimbo with a long rant may not be the best way to try and advance your cause, so to speak. Repeatedly posting long comments such as "Misplaced Pages is evil" and "Good luck with your evil science social sciences project" is hardly trying to find common ground and "it will start to pop up in as many places as i looks like it needs in order to get the attention it deserves" reeks of WP:POINT. Thanks. --You Know Who 02:36, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

• Be Brief. Your first six words, The best response is no response, were great. After that, the good points were lost in a massive pile of verbiage. We all get angry at the foolishness here (such as the pointless and unneccessary "Userbox War,") but it's best to not let it get to you. - Nhprman 15:29, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

In a nutshell:

Misplaced Pages's anti-elitism discourages contributions from experts. Experts are not recognized or acknowledged, and often have to defend themselves against non-experts.

There are people in Misplaced Pages who gang up on others, such as by voting together in an RFC, or have pet rogue admins who ban people who oppose them.

It is very difficult for victims of the ganging-up to seek help at Arbcom or Meditation.

Misplaced Pages is too tolerant of disruptive edits.

DISCLAIMER: I am simply summarizing the above user's points. These do not reflect my personal beliefs or opinions, although I agree with some of the points.--J.L.W.S. The Special One 15:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Music chart information in relation to fair use

I've never written here before, and I apologise if this is the wrong place to bring up this issue, but I was curious about how "fair use" guidelines may apply to the many articles on (mostly contemporary) songs and albums. Organisations such as Billboard magazine and Nielsen SoundScan collect and publish chart and sales information, but to access such information you would need to pay for subscriptions. (I'm confident the same can be said for similar organisations outside of the U.S.) However, a lot of Misplaced Pages articles end up replicating such information in sufficient detail that somebody would not need a subscription to find what they were looking for. For example, I'm Not Dead provides SoundScan sales figures and Billboard chart positions for every week since the album's release, Hung Up has week-by-week chart trajectories for more than half-a-dozen different countries, and Check on It lists no less than fourteen Billboard and six UK charts (some of which are simply used to calculate the larger ones).

Aside from the viewpoint expressed by many editors that such excessive coverage of chart performance transforms articles into "indiscriminate collections of information" (see Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Pop music issues, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Music/Tables for charts), there's a potential problem involved here in that this level of coverage could easily be interpreted as a copyright violation, or at the very least straining the boundaries of what constitutes "fair use" on Misplaced Pages. I may be wrong, but doesn't adding a week-by-week Billboard chart trajectory to an article essentially have the same effect as uploading a photo that originated from an organisation such as the AP without scaling it down? Because the information is on Misplaced Pages, people will be less likely to pay for it, and while this may increase the popularity of this site, I doubt the same can be said for those organisations like Billboard and Nielsen SoundScan. I believe this is also the same reason we avoid quoting wholesale from song lyrics or any other texts. Note http://www.napster.com/terms.html states, "All Billboard chart data are the copyrighted works of VNU eMedia, Inc. Billboard chart information may not be published, broadcast, displayed or redistributed without the prior written agreement of VNU eMedia, Inc."

Again, I apologise if this is the wrong place to be leaving this message, but your (and anybody else's) opinion on the issue would be much appreciated. Thanks. Extraordinary Machine 22:59, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Assuming that chart information is based on numbers and fixed formulas, it constitutes facts, and facts or collections thereof cannot be copyrighted. --Carnildo 23:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Article Deletion/Recreation Policy

A certain article about a person with the last name of Merkey was deleted and restored with very little information -- certainly none of the items of controversy which interested the people who created the article in the first place. The stated reason was that the previous article was "unpleasant", not that it was inaccurate, had original research, etc. This deletion followed months of editorial discussion, changes, disputes, arbitration, sock puppet modifications by the subject of the article, etc.

If the article can't contain any "unpleasant" information, I do not believe it should exist because it is an inaccurate reflection of the subject being discussed.

Jimbo, is there an official policy here, or was this a special-case situation?

Thanks.

71.145.157.217 04:02, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

"Unpleasant" is a euphemism, and not the only reason I gave. The problem was that the article was inaccurate, had original research, etc. All those months of editorial discussion produced an article with glaring errors and omissions, unsourced opinions, etc. So, a fresh start seemed warranted, and I have tried to bring the article to wide attention of good editors. The article is also semi-protected temporarily, in hopes that we can keep down the trolling while experienced editors rebuild the article. The process seems to be going well!--Jimbo Wales 17:59, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree there was a lot of abuse in the talk pages, and that many of the editors and discussion participants seemed unreasonably pleased to post some of the worst items, and that they were often provoking the person in question, but that was really more a problem of process as I didn't see much of it leak into the actual article -- and if it had, addressing the individual failings in the article would have been a less drastic measure. If you are calling the LKML posts (the Linux purchasing offers, the NYC offer for "help", the posts about judges and religions, etc.) original research, opinions, or factual mistakes because they are disputed, then I have to strongly disagree. It may sound reasonable to say that he could have been the victim of a troll impersonation (as he has been on the Yahoo message boards), but that ignores the source: the posts were done at a time prior to his fame with the Yahoo SCOX crowd. The headers were entirely consistent with messages sent before and after, and he communicated frequently on the list at that time, and said nothing about there being forgeries. The person in question has has a history of claiming such abuse, and when pressed for evidence, has said outrageous and self- contradictory things which were at odds with evidence in IP logs. Later, right here on Misplaced Pages, he has both claimed he did and that he did not write those messages in posts minutes apart, which I personally pointed out to him and did not receive a response. Certainly those actions destroy any credibility to his recent claims that they were forged -- claims not made on the mailing list in question, but here at Misplaced Pages. In any case, I worried that you made the change without consideration or that you were not paying attention, because the action made it look as if you belive the subject of the article participated in good faith during the discussions about that page -- something which seems to me unreal. The current page is not a reasonable or complete reflection of the subject in question as it leaves out most of the items the individual is "famous" for, so I do not agree it is going well, though I admit with time it may improve. This is my last post on the subject. Thanks for listening.

71.145.205.23 08:18, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I will file suit

I will if my freedom of speech is denied! 24.131.63.39 04:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Because, of course, we must remember that the First Amendment provides that Jimbo shall promulgate no policy abridging the freedom of speech of any user, even where such speech is disruptive and even where the website on which such speech occurs in privately-owned and -operated. Joe 05:00, 27 May 2006 (UTC) My sardonicism wasn't particularly disruptive, but I don't want to bite the new user, so I'm striking it out; the user appears to be editing in good faith. Joe 06:33, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

The user has apologized on their talk page. Mak (talk) 05:04, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Legal threats are a indefinately blockable offense. Can someone please explain the seriousness of it to the user before he shoots self in the foot with a rocket propelled grenade?--Cat out 00:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

http://www.wikipedia-watch.org/hivemind.html

Dear Mr. Jimbo Wales:

Why aren't people allowed to discuss http://www.wikipedia-watch.org/hivemind.html within Misplaced Pages?

--Markhacker 19:58, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

It has been added to a spam blacklist due to a history of linkspamming to that address. -M 20:02, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Read http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=1422&st=20

Evil behavior

WAS 4.250 20:53, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with revealing the truth. It's all about the free flowing of information, baby.

It's called freedom of information!

It's called Open SOurce!

Agnosticso 20:49, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

For more data about evil by these same people read Philip Sandifer. WAS 4.250 21:06, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

This is the mighty wikipedia spam blacklist, otherwise known as the "censorship list of death". http://meta.wikimedia.org/Spam_blacklist 128.100.31.152 23:54, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Why should links from a website basicaly dedicated in harrasing wikipedia users and administrators should be allowed? Tell me one logical reason. --Cat out 00:11, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

by itself, they should definately be allowed just due to the fact that censorship in an encyclopedia is wrong. The blacklist follows the same philosophy as the blocking policy: preventive, not punitive. It was blacklisted because its users spammed it everywhere. You don't (or policy says you shouldn't) block to punish someone, but to prevent further damage. If WikiWatch instituted an active policy of encouraging it's users to add links only where appropriate and to refrain from spam, I'm sure it would be allowed, just as a blocked user will be reinstated if he demonstrates reform and willingness to help build an encyclopedia. -M 04:32, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I am not suggesting "censoring", but wikipedia review is unencyclopedic to all but one article, Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages review mostly exists as a mean to harras wikipedians... And links from this site mostly is criticism against wikipedians... We should make efforts to minimise such trolling --Cat out 14:19, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

What about WikiTruth? WikiTruth is notable enough to have its own article? Looks like double standard. Agnosticso 20:49, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

WikipediaReview are terrorists. Misplaced Pages is having a war on terror. 70.48.250.32 05:28, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. Move all zig! </sarcasm> --Cat out 14:19, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

That's okay, I think it's time I explained the definition of assault to them according to Black's Law Dictionary.--MONGO 20:52, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Greetings Earthling, Jimbo:

Greetings Earthling, Jimbo:

I do apologize for calling you on your cell phone while you were eating dinner with your parents. I promise not to call you again. I didn't know you had a talk page. I didn't know I had a talk page. I would just like to make five suggestions.

1. There should be a Misplaced Pages FAQ that new Misplaced Pages users can't miss. In other words there should be a flashing hypertext link to it in a very large font all in a box on Misplaced Pages's home page. This FAQ should explain everything about Misplaced Pages. It should explain the Misplaced Pages process. It should tell users about advocates, mediators, and arbitrators. This would save everyone a lot of grief.

2. Some editors revert anything a new contributor adds to an entry. They do this unceremoniously without comment. They do this even if the contributor substantiates their claims on the article talk page. This appears to be against stated Misplaced Pages policy. New editors are often patronized, berated, insulted and sanctioned simply because they do not understand the Misplaced Pages process. New editors should have some simple recourse to hostile treatment, and this information should be included in the FAQ.

3. No one should be allowed to edit an article unless they have registered with Misplaced Pages and sign in with a password. Their email address should be confirmed. This would lessen vandalism and free up administrators to do more constructive things.

4. Misplaced Pages would greatly benefit from a web site map. Misplaced Pages is a labyrinth.

5. I am sure there is a fifth suggestion I would like to make, but I just can't think of one now.

Warmest and kindest regards, Michael D. Wolok

PS. If you ever find yourself in Miami and need any kind assistance please feel free to call on me.

Tolerance in the Misplaced Pages community

Tolerance in the real world is a principle I feel very strongly about, and it is my opinion that standards on Misplaced Pages should be at least as high. There is an unfortunate conflict between this principle and the aggressive campaign against permitting user boxes that suggest that a user has a viewpoint. This conflict has been made apparent to me because I chose a userbox that indicated my personal preference for using green energy, (a little piece of information that helps to create a picture of me, influenced by 14 years of work aimed at improving energy efficiency in buildings in the UK and Europe), only for this userbox to be deleted by someone who thought such a preference was "inflammatory". (By the way, I find the separate argument that user boxes use a substantial amount of server resources difficult to believe - are there statistics on this?).

I see two possible consistent alternatives. One is to forbid any material on user pages that expresses any degree of personal opinion about anything. The other is to tolerate any such material, except where it is generally agreed to be offensive (confrontational viewpoints, for example), and to suggest that user pages should be designed so as not to alienate those who read them. The problem with the former policy is that it is intolerant in a way that reminds one of totalitarianism. User pages are not articles (although they have some attributes of articles by a user, about that user). Many users who have contributed a resource worth many thousands of dollars to Misplaced Pages for free have spent a small amount of time creating a picture (sometimes slightly whimsical) of themselves on their user page. There is a balance to be made between an idealised desire that all Misplaced Pages editors have no personal views (so, in reality, should hide them), and the freedom of expression of users in a space away from articles and discussions about them.

The main argument I can see for the aggressive policy against certain userboxes is that it has a tendency to characterise a certain user as being motivated by pushing a certain viewpoint. I would disagree with such a attitude by a user, but I do not think opposing the use of certain user boxes has a significant effect on this phenomenon. It is worth noting that in many cases, a statement or a user box on a user page that expresses a viewpoint performs a useful service to Misplaced Pages by declaring an viewpoint of a user to other users, even though such a viewpoint should not be allowed to influence the content of contributions. Elroch 01:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

You've missed the main opposition point on userboxes, actually. Userboxes are templates, but templates were designed to help write articles (and as such need to be NPOV). --Cyde↔Weys 01:51, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I would state the same point as Cyde, but slightly differently. The problem with userboxes is that people really really ought not to be using their user pages to advocate for or against green energy or anyone else. We actually are extremely tolerant about this, and I see no reason for us to change that. However, the issue with userboxes is that they are templates, and as such, they are categorized and easy to replicate and easy to use for campaigning and so on, and so they turn individual advocacy behavior, which is bad enough, into group campaigns. The pages which list userboxes, in the template namespace, make it seem as though putting these things on userpages is a normal and accepted community behavior, when in fact it is not.

There is a middle ground, I agree. The middle ground is to let people do as they will in the user space, and merely use reason and argument to teach people over time why one ought not use Misplaced Pages userpages for political or other campaigns.... while at the same time saying, no, really, the template namespace is not for that, that we do not endorse this behavior. This is the solution that the Germans have put into effect with great results.--Jimbo Wales 02:07, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Jimbo, I'm both pleased and puzzled to read your words here. Simply saying "they ought not" isn't a policy that ends the abuse of Templates space, and I think you know it won't end the unforgivably endless debates, which are chewing up editing time.

Your Statement of Principles notes that "Very limited meta-discussion of the nature of the Misplaced Pages should be placed on the site itself. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia." I urge you to follow this principle and keep this a matter to a mailing list for you and the Admins to sort out.

Leaving it to the "parliament of billions" to it sort out has led to tribalism and factions. Hundreds of thousands of words have been written - not in articles, but about boxes. No consensus seems immanent, other than they’re "cool."

Like all Web collaborations, WP needs clear policies. It’s the site owner’s job to sort out policies of this magnitude and make the fairest decision possible to protect the integrity of the project. Direct democracy can’t solve it. Gentle persuasion can’t solve it. A half million more words written about “Userbox policy proposals” can’t solve it. But you can, and I hope you do. - Nhprman 04:11, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

• I'm also surprised that you seem to be labeling many/all ("the problem with userboxes is...") POV userboxes as actually advocating/campaigning the view represented, when I don't think the majority of them are doing so. Most are probably being used to describe the editor with no subtext or intent of actually wanting that bias to slip into article-writing. In my opinion, it's not likely (though certainly possible) for someone to view something like "This user is a Christian" or "This user is Jewish" as advocating or identifying with that religion. What if they were reworded to avoid any such interpretation, like "This user has a bias favorable to Christianity" (with "bias" linked to WP:NPOV or some other explanatory page)? --AySz88^-^ 04:35, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

• Or we could simply end this debate with a new policy from Jimbo moving all boxes to user space, then focus on writing articles instead. Problem solved. (I also can't resist commenting that a box saying "This user has a bias favorable to Christianity" has no place on Misplaced Pages, and is symptomatic of the problem with Userboxes in general, but with Templated boxes in particular.) - Nhprman 05:16, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

There is zero conflict between your ideals and Misplaced Pages guidelines and policies. See Misplaced Pages:Divisiveness. The solution is to expand your free speech rather than limit it to a bumper sticker slogan. Express yourself! Please! Just don't blindly label yourself with some divisive unthinking slogan or category. We are all complex enough to deserve better than that. WAS 4.250 02:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Elroch, there's a problem with your suggestion that we "tolerate any such material, except where it is generally agreed to be offensive (confrontational viewpoints, for example)". This plan requires that we make a bunch of decisions about which views are offensive and which ones aren't. That would force Misplaced Pages to take all kinds of political stands when it comes to questionable cases. How can we condone declaring your membership in one ideology with a history of violence, but not another one? Near the boundary, there are countless such decisions that would have to be made, and that's not how we need to be using our energy; it's enough trouble deciding with topics are encyclopedic and verifiable, without having to worry about allowing some Irish nationalist party's userbox that a group of users claim is horribly offensive while another group screams about how we allowed a userbox for some Irish unionist party that also killed people... and so on and so forth.

That's so far from the project of writing an encyclopedia; we've got no business going there. -GTBacchus 03:26, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

The introduction to Misplaced Pages:Userboxes states, "Misplaced Pages is first and foremost an online encyclopedia, and as a means to that end, an online community. Userboxes are to help us create the best encyclopedia we can." When I initially read this statement, I felt confident userboxes were a reasonable tool to support collaboration and community building within the online community dedicated to building this encyclopedia. In that spirit, I added a few userboxes to my page (just as Jimbo has) and joined the related WikiProject. About the same time, I started to notice the highly contentious userbox deletion wars, along with several active and failed attempts to resolve them. Assuming good faith, I joined in many of the discussions, attempting to clarify the web of issues for myself and possibly others in hopes of finding sound and equitable resolutions to these issues. Unfortunately, that has not been the case. Instead, what I found as a major obstacle was what appears to me to be a relatively small group of administrators attempting to zealously enforce what they perceive to be the de facto policy on userboxes established through various comments made by Jimbo Wales. While it makes sense to listen to Jimbo’s comments, it makes even more sense to follow established policies and guidelines. I find it unfortunate some administrators are using Jimbo’s words as weapons in attempts to stifle the current processes intended to clarify policy on this issue. As a professional evaluator, I am well acquainted with issues related to characterizations, appraisals, neutrality, points of view, bias, factions, campaigning, policy development and the like. What I see occurring here is very troubling in the sense that many unintended consequences are plaguing this protracted userbox debate. For example, while Jimbo may well be acting on this matter in a spirit of tolerance, the actions of some of his representatives are perceived by many as personifications of intolerance, souring them to participating in the voluntary activity of encyclopedia development. If, in fact, Jimbo has a clear policy position on userboxes, then it should be communicated as such, not as a posting here and there on a discussion page, and subsequently used by some in attempts to bully their colleagues. I strongly urge Jimbo to further assume his leadership in Misplaced Pages by making an official policy statement on userboxes that addresses the outstanding issues on this matter. Rfrisbie 05:59, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. The circumstances that allow some users to say (perhaps with some justification) that the Admins are acting on what they think Jimbo is saying, and may be misinterpreting his comments, are the very reasons why his "non-statement statements" about Userboxes are a huge problem for the project. Though - if I may spin this just a bit differently - I think Jimbo's tolerance for the situation is actually the core of the problem, and I don't blame the admins as much as some seem to for thier zeal in taking at least the FIRST half of every statement Jimbo makes against Templated User boxes at face value. It's the "but this isn't a real policy" part of these statements that drive people mad. - Nhprman 06:17, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I've no idea who wrote that userboxes were "to help us create the best encyclopedia we can." You were grotesquely, obscenely misled. --Tony Sidaway

"Misplaced Pages is first and foremost an online encyclopedia, and as a means to that end, an online community. Userboxes are to help us create the best encyclopedia we can." Really? Somewhere along the line userboxes got terribly terribly off-track, then. Most userboxes don't even pretend to be even tangentially-related to writing the encyclopedia. (Dammit, edit-conflicted with Tony) --Cyde↔Weys 06:04, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

"Misplaced Pages is first and foremost an online encyclopedia, and as a means to that end, an online community. Userboxes are to help us create the best encyclopedia we can." Prescriptive versus descriptive. You should see what that wording replaced. WAS 4.250 14:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Someone seems to have added userboxes to Jimbo's page, which seems to have misled the above editor to think that sticking a load of pastel boxes expressing belief in all kinds of causes is the way to be a good Wikipedian. That's a little sad. I've removed them from Jimbo's page so as to avoid further misleading other users. --Tony Sidaway 06:14, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to Jimbo and others for your views. Firstly, it is worth making analogies between userboxes and real-world equivalents. A userbox may be seen as being like a T-shirt, or a badge, but may also be seen as being like a category which people belong to out of choice (for example being a Muslim). When one buys a T-shirt or badge or becomes a Muslim, one is to some extent aligning oneself with someone else's viewpoint. Personally I think such behaviour is acceptable in society (although in some workplaces, employees may be prohibited from any such personal statements, even if they have no effect whatsoever on their performance. It has just come to mind that in some societies, certain such declarations have been made compulsory, which is also an attack on personal freedom). I consider that the "clothing policy" for the "Misplaced Pages workplace" should err on the side of personal freedom.

My second point is to correct a misunderstanding. The user box that led to this discussion did not advocate anything - it expressed a personal viewpoint. Saying "I like Mozart" after editing a few hundred articles on pure mathematics (or "I support the use of green energy") is not the same as saying "You should like Mozart" or "All music but Mozart sux". However, there may well be some fans of death metal who would find a userbox saying "I like Mozart" inflammatory and delete it if given administrator privileges. Should they condescended to, or encouraged? Elroch 22:58, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

There's nothing in Misplaced Pages's mission or policies to suggest its goal is to somehow foster freedom of expression, democracy, personal freedom or anything of the sort. Jimbo's statements and WP's policies are pretty straightforward on at least this point. Further, in addition to banning T-shirts, an employer may say, "No banners or posters are allowed in your workspace about politics, religion or even your favorite music. They're not appropriate for work, and are distractions." Same goes for clothing, and for WP, and honestly, even most "chat" boards have rules and ban those who don't comply. Why is WP so holy that it must not have rules against wanton, off-topic expression? I'll never 'get' that, I guess. As for inflammatory boxes, why not just write "I like Mozart" on your User page, avoiding the problem of deletions altogether? Better yet, let your numerous positive edits on Mozart's article speak to your love of the man and his music. - Nhprman 03:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Userboxes/Beliefs

On the "Misplaced Pages:Userboxes/Beliefs" page you entered:

"It should be noted that use of such userboxes is strongly discouraged at Misplaced Pages, and it is likely that very soon all these userboxes will be deleted or moved to userspace. Their use and creation is not recommended at this time."

Ok, why? -- Jason Palpatine 07:27, 28 May 2006 (UTC) speak your mind

Read the section right above the new one you just created for this question. --Cyde↔Weys 07:34, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages in Spanish is going really bad

Hello Jimbo, I'm sending this message to you becaus I'm really concern about the way Misplaced Pages-es its going. Reviewing some articles and the bibliotecaries (administrators), i notice that there is a really anti-american presence there, and that its reflected in articles like: Cuba, URSS, China, USA, etc,etc. In which there is a tendency to publish false information against the United States by the administrators. Also the same administrators are blocking people who want to edit those articles to present the real information with evidences.

Im telling you this because Misplaced Pages in Spanish its going into a really bad way, and inevitably it will carry critics from the media...

Sincerely, Carlos.--69.84.124.246 09:14, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Greetings Earthling, Jimbo,

Dear Jimbo,

I hope you can forgive me for disturbing you, that was not my intent.

I just noticed we might have one or two things in common. I am a member of Mensa and am self-taught. In 1991, I helped my best friend make a million dollars trading S&P 500 futures. He didn't share much of his success with me. He said, if he had lost money, I would not have shared in his loss. My only revenge is that I always give him white, and still constantly beat him in chess. Every time I visit him to play chess, I feel like Sebastian visiting Tyrell in "Blade Runner." My friend moved from the back room of his father's roach infested house to the 16th floor of a luxury condo.

I have a hard time because I have no credentials. I can pass any test, but most licenses require proven experience. Though, I have considerable experience in many fields, I can't prove it with W-2 forms. I will soon inherit a little bit of money, but can't figure out what to do. I have a lot of business ideas, a lot of inventions I would like to patent, many blue-collar skills, and exceptional talent in one or two areas, but I also have disabilities.

I would like to start a community called EMPATHY. You can find a description of it here: http://directory.ic.org/records/?action=view&page=view&record_id=20445

Maybe, someday I could discuss my ideas with you, and ask your advice.

Warmest and kindest regards, Michael D. Wolok

Michael D. Wolok 15:32, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

German?

Does Jimbo have German ancestry? —User:Arual

Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Awareness (and also meta:Meta:MetaProject Awareness)

I've recently started a project to increase the awareness of Misplaced Pages and to recruit expert editors from universities and the like. It's been suggested that we ask you to take a look and perhaps give some strategies since it's something that you do all the time, and we're only doing it at a lower level. Thanks for your time. --Xyrael 19:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Brian Peppers, again

After months of discussing issues on the Talk:Brian Peppers, an admin took the liberty of speedy deleting the talk page today interpreting you saying that the article shouldn't be created until 2007 as saying it shouldn't even be allowed to be discussed until then. It has been undeleted, redeleted, and undeleted again since then. Is this what you intended? VegaDark 22:20, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

On this note, and in view of the erstwhile discussions about the article, would you be amenable to our redirecting to Internet memes and then protecting? Joe 02:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

defamation ala Seigenthaler at Les Aspin

I found an unsubstantiated allegation on Les Aspin's bio. It accuses him of shoplifting while he was Clinton SecDef. There was no source. I removed it per policy. The tidbit was added by an anonymous IP in March. I have not been able to verify it so I removed it. It is disturbing that it could have been up there for that long (and with many subsequent edits) without challenge. I am not sure if Misplaced Pages can take any actions that would help cleanse the mirror caches or Goolge searches.

• 68.14.190.169 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is the editor who added it.

Diffs are here. --Tbeatty 00:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

rampant state-endorsed opyright infringement by Baidu Baike

Is there any way we can take action against Baidu Baike? Surely there is some legal means of recourse, because they apparently are taking things from the Chinese Misplaced Pages wholesale, with utter copyright violations. We have to deal with copyright issues, I don't see why we should idly stand by and let ourselves get trampled over with. Since we have been sending cease and desist notices to small mirrors now, surely this is the ripe target, as Baidu Baike is state-sponsored by the People's Republic of China.

(As an example of lifting, see this versus this, articles which discuss Sun Yat-Sen. Our version at zh was much earlier, with last edits in January, while Baidu Baike has only made minor excisions and modifications.)

I think we should give up any hope of negotiating with the PRC entirely, as they obviously have taken a hostile and insulting stance to us by lifting material wholesale, then saying it is their copyright. This is such a gross violation of Misplaced Pages's philosophy, and PRC being a member of the World Trade Organisation (with compulsory ratification of the WIPO), some form of action *must* be taken. I do not think this is a time for lega pacifism.

If you could initiate any attempts I think the whole community will cheer on. The right to sue is clearly there, perhaps the tediousness is in collecting copyright holders, but then again I think we can make a point of this case. The PRC is required to comply, because such a gross violation can mean PRC's expulsion from the WTO. If anything I think we should treat Baidu Baike as an enemy, and drop any pretenses or hopes that the PRC will ever willingly unblock zh. Elle _{vécut heureuse} (Be eudaimonic!) 00:19, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

What can you do? Misplaced Pages will declare war on PRC? LOL! Your so called copy violations mean nothing in PRC.

PRC being a member of the World Trade Organisation means absolutely nothing.

You should just give up because there's nothing Wikimedia can do about it.

70.48.250.191 02:47, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

A couple questions regarding the immutability of CSD T1

Hi Jimbo. I don't think I've written you before, I know you must be flooded with all sorts of things that need not directly involve you, but I think this really does. There's been as I'm sure you're aware a lot of discussion involving criterion for speedy deletion T1, which you added (mostly moved out to Misplaced Pages:T1 and T2 debates now). Concern has arisen that T1 may not be worded in a way that best expresses its intent, often admitting an interpretation that is either too broad or too narrow and encourages fighting over the policy and borderline templates rather than eliminating the especially provocative userboxes it was intended for.

So my question concerns the immutability of T1: since it was handed down "by decree", many users feel like it cannot be modified, even with consensus, even for clarification. Is this accurate, and if so, is this immutability something you would consider modifying, to allow limited types of changes? Finally, if you wish to keep it fixed, could you at least consider clarifying its specific requirements and intent? Thanks a lot for your help. Deco 12:43, 29 May 2006 (UTC)