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Revision as of 21:50, 20 June 2013 editGoethean (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users40,563 edits →This RFC is misleading and inappropriately worded ← Previous edit		Revision as of 22:02, 20 June 2013 edit undoCarolmooredc (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers31,944 edits →A concern: people concerned in obvious imbalance should start putting more material inNext edit →
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	:@] Certainly totalitarian governments armed some citizens. As stated in both the existing sections, we are (or have been depending on the current state of the article) quite clear that they attempted to disarm those that were being oppressed, while at the same time further arming the oppressors. That in no way invalidates that it was used as a tool of that oppression. ] (]) 18:15, 20 June 2013 (UTC)		:@] Certainly totalitarian governments armed some citizens. As stated in both the existing sections, we are (or have been depending on the current state of the article) quite clear that they attempted to disarm those that were being oppressed, while at the same time further arming the oppressors. That in no way invalidates that it was used as a tool of that oppression. ] (]) 18:15, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
	::Framing gun control like that - at length - is part of the problem, not part of the solution. ] (]) 20:57, 20 June 2013 (UTC)		::Framing gun control like that - at length - is part of the problem, not part of the solution. ] (]) 20:57, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
			:::The article definitely needs material on other countries with gun control laws, but ''rather than complain it's not there, as the editor does below, people should put it in.'' (I would if I were more interested in the topic.) I'd be interested in seeing what gun laws of Venezuela are. Or those under Fidel Castro or Spain under Franco, just for starters. ''] - <small>]</small> 22:02, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

	===This RFC is misleading and inappropriately worded===		===This RFC is misleading and inappropriately worded===

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proposed new section/paragraph on 3d printing and effect on gun control

Many articles written on this topic recently, about how 3d printing (or CAD driven EDM/CNC) may eventually (once technology matures) make gun control difficult or impossible to enforce. Is there consensus to add a mention regarding this? As I believe we are still fully protected, we can work on wording here in the article and put in an edit request.

Gaijin42 (talk) 16:02, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Looks worthy of coverage in the article. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 16:23, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

proposed wording

After Defense Distributed released their 3D printed Liberator gun, questions were raised regarding the effects that 3D printing and widespread consumer-level CNC machining may have on gun control effectiveness.

The United States Department of Homeland Security and the Joint Regional Intelligence Center released a memo which was obtained by Fox News, saying that "Significant advances in three-dimensional (3D) printing capabilities, availability of free digital 3D printer files for firearms components, and difficulty regulating file sharing may present public safety risks from unqualified gun seekers who obtain or manufacture 3D printed guns," and "Proposed legislation to ban 3D printing of weapons may deter, but cannot completely prevent their production. Even if the practice is prohibited by new legislation, online distribution of these digital files will be as difficult to control as any other illegally traded music, movie or software files."

Internationally, where gun controls are generally tighter than in the United States, some commentators have said the impact may be more strongly felt, as alternative firearms are not as easily obtainable. European officials have noted that producing a 3d printed gun would be illegal under their gun control laws, and that criminals have access to other sources of weapons, but noted that as the technology improved the risks of an effect would increase.. Downloads of the plans from the UK, Germany, Spain, and Brazil were heavy.

Attempting to restrict the distribution over the Internet of gun plans has been likened to the futility of preventing the widespread distribution of DeCSS which enabled DVD ripping. After the US government had Defense Distributed take down the plans, they were still widely available via The Pirate Bay and other file sharing sites. Some US legislators have proposed regulations on 3D printers, to prevent them being used for printing guns. 3D printing advocates have suggested that such regulations would be futile, could cripple the 3D printing industry, and could infringe on free speech rights.

References

Looks good to me. North8000 (talk) 02:17, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Where should it go? A subsection under arguments? Or in the US section? It seems to be a US centric topic so far , although one article did mention a high number of downloads from europe suggesting heightened interest there due to their restrictive laws, and ultimately any disruptive effect the technology has would not be geographically restricted, unless one area was able to implement better regulation/restrictionGaijin42 (talk) 02:31, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I have no strong opinion. I think that there is nothing particularly US related about it. North8000 (talk) 11:14, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I have actually just found some sources discussing 3d printing in the context of european gun control, I will expand the paragraph (perhaps make it a section broken into a few small paragraphs) to deal with that. With that change, I think it should go as a sub-section under arguments?Gaijin42 (talk) 14:43, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

International paragraph added Gaijin42 (talk) 16:03, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Looks good. North8000 (talk) 16:48, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Done Gaijin42 (talk) 18:52, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I just made some needed edits to this section to generally clean it up, make it more encyclopedic, and more inline with WP:MOS. One thing to keep in mind is that even with a developing event, "time" is relevant. I personally make the effort to write as if someone is reading the article 5-10 years after the events took place, so I include dates for the sake of context and continuity. Additionally, blogs are not considered reliable sources and there is no "strength in numbers". Blogs for the most part are opinion based editorial from writers who are rarely experts in the field they are commenting on. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 23:09, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Blogs are not reliable sources for facts, but they are reliable sources for the opinions of the writers. Strength in numbers is applicable there to say that multiple people have commented on a particular issue or idea. Elpais is not a blog, it is the #1 circulation paper in spain. Re your specific comparison to 2d printing "similar tech" etc, that is WP:SYNTH and WP:OR as nobody has raised that comparison directly. (whearas many people have raised the comparison to deCSS, which you removed completely. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:24, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Given a choice of facts versus opinion, I think WP is better off with the former. Elpais was removed because the citation was not in English. Its use made verifying it as a WP:RS more difficult than a citation in the same language as this version of Misplaced Pages. Plus there was already another citation, but upon further review, the paraphrasing of the article content did not match its context, so it was removed.

--Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 16:52, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Verification being difficult is not a valid reason for removal. However, regarding your specific concernt about the paraphrase, I agree that was a loose paraphrase on my part ~~, but certainly it is notable that downloads in Spain, Germany, and the UK exceeded those of the US? Perhaps there is a better way to phrase that. WP:CALC gives us good latitude here I think.~~ Gaijin42 (talk) 16:59, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

On further search for sources, it seems I was incorrect. per BBC "According to Defense Distributed, most of the 100,000 downloads have been in the US, followed by Spain, Brazil, Germany and the UK.". However, I do think international interest is sourceable, we just need to build consensus on what we can accurately say from the sources. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:02, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough, its just that the article said that "Spain lead in downloads followed by...". It was a qualitative, but not a quantitative statement. Maybe I read it wrong, but no actual numbers were quoted for those countries. Plus it was just the statistics from that one download source/server. Weren't their others around the world? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 17:06, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

they were the download numbers from defense distributed, prior to the takedown, subsequently things are up on piratebay, etc, but that is much less trackable except by how many seeds are available or whatnot. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:08, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

"Influence of Technology" section

So I guess my suggestion from back in March (here) finally has some merit... :) Here was my suggestion for the overall article organization...

Option 4 - Gun Control - the encyclopedic article that a lay person and/or someone unfamiliar with firearms would expect to findf Using the Racism article as a template of sorts...

Lede - describing and defining gun (firearm) control, the practice and the spectrum (from no control to total ban)
Infobox - Continue using the current one of "Gun politics by country".
Definition/Types - A preface to help clarify that it comes in several forms such as Legislative, Cultural, Commercial, Practical, and Ecological (such as with hunting restrictions and the limitation on the number of rounds loaded at any given time).
Influence of Technology - Firearms (as a practical and/or functional device) have evolved, albeit it slowly, but certain developments have had a greater impact than others, i.e. the self contained metallic cartridge, this made changeable magazines possible even though they did not come along until decades later.
History - Starting with a modest section on the "Origins of firearm control' (a mini-lede of sorts similar to what Just recommends) followed by the history of the views towards gun control as it has progressed and evolved in light of technological changes. Starting with the creation of black powder in China there has been some form of control (or attempt to do so) over this technology. As Just correctly states, "We've been constraining populations from having arms (bows, swords, etc.) since the dawn of civilization, this is just a subset of a bigger concept".
See Also - A see also section of other gun politics and gun related articles
Further Reading - Maybe a couple of notable books on the topic of gun control
References - Standard References

The caveats to this format hopefully are obvious, but my intention is that as clinical of an approach to the subject matter as possible be taken or that the references permit.

3D printing is far from the first technological advancement that has affected gun control. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 03:32, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Magazines and cartridge changes certainly affected firearm effectiveness, but I fail to see how they affect gun control. They did not affect the ability of governments to restrict access to guns, nor to people to circumvent those restrictions? Gaijin42 (talk) 16:33, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Scalhotrod, good thoughts overall. But I have some concerns that the "advancements" field so immense and only 1/2 germane that you might have it get too big and off-topic. North8000 (talk) 18:32, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Points taken, so let me better explain my viewpoint. In my opinion the relationship between technology and gun control is not only causal, but bi-directional. The 3D printer is one example, another is the purported development and adoption of "single user gun locks" meaning guns that only fire for the authorized user. This type of legislation has yet to pass, but if it does its likely that someone will develop a practical cost effective version of this technology. Yet another, as I've previously mentioned, is changeable cartridge magazines. These made machine guns possible and there is a significant amount of gun control legislation associated with them. Gaijin, the 1934 NFA is one example.

In other words, gun technology developments have lead to new gun control legislation, and vice versa, gun control legislation has lead to (or inspired at the very least) technological developments in firearms. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 21:52, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I think you're right, and I don't see anything objectionable in your list. Obviously the transition to brass cartridges was enormous... I guess I just am not sure what the goal of this discussion is. Are there changes that need to be made? Shadowjams (talk) 09:52, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Scalhotrod, I agree. My comment was more of "something to keep in mind" while doing it. North8000 (talk) 10:26, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

First off, I agree that the section on 3D printing is important and should stay, but its WP:RECENTISM and gives undue weight to this particular technological development.

Next, as such, the section needs to be expanded for better historical perspective. Granted, this will take some effort and research in order to properly cite and I'm willing to pitch in, but I don't wish to be alone in the effort.

I don't think that a "technology" section needs to be "huge" or "all inclusive" over the history of firearms, but some of the more obvious legislation like the 1934 NFA should be mentioned. My dilemma is how to best go about this and not cross over into WP:SYNTH or WP:OR territory. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 13:29, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

On your general sections approach, I don't have a huge deal with (though I think there may be difficulty gaining consensus on the specific content of some of those sections). On your specific technology suggestions I do have some issues. While you are right that the 3d issue has a possible problem with recentism, there are MANY MANY sources all over the political, geographical, pro/anti gun spectrum discussing the 3d issue and its effect on gun control, so undue is an easy barrier to overcome. In addition to the 20+ sources we have, I could probably add another 30-40. On a personal level, I agree with you regarding the bi-directional nature of technology and legislation. However, there issues with that in the article :

Its not really sourced. Certainly we can find sourcing on the history of gun control, and different changes and loopholes, but its not being discussed as "the effect the technology has had on gun control" - I don't object to your info, but it belongs just as part of the history of gun control.
the evolutionary change happens for every industry. Oh, you cant charge super high interest rates anymore? Guess what, we have a new ATM fee! US tax rates too high? Shell corporations in Ireland! Its not really notable - its expected!
Its not an apples to apples comparison. You are discussing evolutionary changes in gun features. My section is discussing a revolutionary change in gun manufacturing. Ultimately gun control (either who has the guns, or what features guns have) "works" (to whatever degree it does) because there is a relatively small pipeline of design->mfgr->distribution->sales, where real proliferation can only happen after the sales step, and the number of designers/mfgrs is small, so they are easy to investigate/punish . 3d printing upsets this entire paradigm (and not just for guns).
1. a similar argument would be comparing improvements in book binding techniques and printers ink, or censorship laws, to ebooks where suddenly everyone is a potential publisher.
3d printing is going to be a global revolution. While it may have issues with recentism, your changes have issues with globalism (re NFA etc)
Still don't see how things like brass cartridges has any effect on gun control (other than creating the possibility of magazines, which were then ultimately regulated)
1. I could see an argument for something like the bullet button, or other "not technically an assault weapon" where changes can be directly sourced as a cause and effect to legislation - but those really aren't technology in my mind, just finding of loopholes. (Certainly that can be a notable topic itself though, ineffectiveness of gun control due to loopholes and how easy it is to change designs to circumvent specific restrictions)
2. Also could see info on microstamping, or personalized guns, but again I see those as specific gun features, or gun control features - they are not affecting the effectiveness of the concept of gun control. (For example, if both features became universally mandatory, and all mass produced guns implemented them, 3d printing would (once tech matures) still allow complete circumvention either by making a whole firearm, or by replacing specific parts)

Gaijin42 (talk) 14:16, 10 June 2013 (UTC) Gaijin42 (talk) 14:16, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

ALL excellent points and I agree with your analysis, its not a cut and dry issue, much like the main issue itself. I also think I better understand your point that this particular technological step affects "distribution" versus the nature of the guns themselves like the metallic cartridge or the changeable magazine did. I guess in terms of the "big picture", I view them as all related, but I understand your distinguishing of the type and nature of the technological changes. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 17:00, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I think you should break out specific discussions about 3d printing, because that's unique enough of a subject with wikipedia issues that it would be cleaner to discuss it separate. Shadowjams (talk) 02:49, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Protection has expired

... and I think we've all had some time to cool off. Can we do something to get rid of those tags now? PraetorianFury (talk) 17:28, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I think that depends a lot on the "something" :) I am open to many possible changes, but my core viewpoint has not changed significantly -

the nazis used gun control meme is widespread and notable (multiple court opinions, NRA, many conservative politicians/pundits, gun rights advocates, etc)
Halbrook is one of the more notable and reliable (read expert on gun control) representatives of that group, and his paper has numerous cites back to the primary sources, and is itself cited
- The argument that the paper is self published has I think been handled completely, but even if someone wants to maintain that argument, Halbrook's status as an expert on gun control covers the explicit exceptions in WP:SPS
- Similarly, I don't think anyone is arguing that he is still "just a lawyer with a website" or any some such regarding his notability/expert status in gun control. (Although certainly an individual with a strong POV)
Objectively the nazi's did use gun control as one of their tools. Certainly not the only tool, perhaps not an essential or even necessary tool, but nobody disagrees that they did use it.
- Harcourt's rebuttle to Halbrook specifically conceeds this point. His arguments are if the nazis/hitler were in general pro-gun-control or not, or if the overall policy of the German law at the time was gun control or not - That is an orthogonal argument to the factual assertion that gun control was implemented against the jews or not.
- the counterfactual argument "Even if the jews had had weapons, it wouldn't have mattered" is probably (mostly) true, but obviously wasn't true enough that the Nazis didnt care about confiscating weapons to make their jobs easier/less risky.
This fact is reliably sourced to multiple primary and secondary sources establish both its factual-ness, and notability as a fact
This topic might be undue as part of an overview of the holocaust, but as one of the more notable instances of gun control is not undue for this article
There are certainly gaps in addressing other notable uses of gun control ("positive" or "negative" uses) in this article, one that should be addressed by adding/fleshing out those sections, not by removing this one (A reverse WP:OTHERSTUFF argument)
The extended argument that nazis use gun control, therefore modern implementors of gun control are (acting like) nazis, should not be brought up as part of this (historical) section, but could be used in the arguments section, along with responses from others (harcourt, salon, etc) who are highly critical of that argument.

Therefore, I would strongly object to any large scale removal of this content, but if there are particular quotes or points you want to tweak, or possibly remove, or specific things that need additional sourcing, I am certainly open to collaboration and consensus building on that. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:05, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

It is contentious, inappropriate, and partisan to place this material under the History section of this article. That the Nazi disarmament is part of the history of gun control is not a remotely neutral version of history, and it appears in exactly zero neutral, non-partisan history books. It is an argument made by one side in a debate. This is a highly contentious, partisan version of history, and by placing this material under a 'History' heading, you have violated Misplaced Pages's neutral point of view policy. The material needs to be moved to the "Studies, debate, and opinions" section. — goethean 18:44, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

The "Associations with Totalitarianism" section was under "Arguments" before User:ROG5728 re-organized the article in a highly partisan way in early March. — goethean 18:52, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

We should probably have the description of what happened under history, and opinions about it separately. North8000 (talk) 18:54, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Nazi rule is not ~~usually~~ considered to be an episode in the history of gun control by neutral historians. The idea that it is is an anti-gun control argument. Therefore, the entire Nazi section needs to go under "Studies, debate, and opinions". — goethean 18:58, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

How would it not be:

Government regulation of the sale and ownership of firearms. (Dictionary.com definition of gun control)
Regulation of the selling, owning, and use of guns (Websters definition of gun control)

This isn't that complicated. North8000 (talk) 20:52, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

The nazi stuff is just a tendentious argumentum ad hitler against gun control is only accepted by a tiny fringe. (You support gun control? You know who else supported gun control? Hitler! End of discussion.) TFD (talk) 21:07, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

That's sort of a straw man. I think that the discussion of the moment is just about inclusion of the facts of what happened in that section. Arguments etc. could be a seperate discussion. North8000 (talk) 21:32, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

How is objecting to the addition of information that is only used by people making a strawman argument a strawman argument? TFD (talk) 21:43, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

If there is thought behind that, please explain. Thanks. North8000 (talk) 23:56, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

It is not at all a straw man argument; on the contrary, it is simply calling a spade a spade. The only conceivable reason for this article to examine what some anti-gun activists call gun control in Nazi Germany to the exclusion of every single other culture and time period throughout all of history is to associate gun control with Nazis. In earlier versions of this article, this fact was actually explicit, because the section, with the same content and sources, was calling "association with authoritarianism" and was under the "Arguments" section. In March, ROG5728 simply moved that section to the history section. This move was illegitimate and a clear violation of Misplaced Pages's non-negotaiable neutral point of view policy. As such, the section must be moved immediately, North's and Gaijin's perfectly predictable and perfectly partisan arguments notwithstanding. — goethean 00:34, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

North's citation of Webster's (in addition to proving exactly nothing) is a clear violation of WP:SYNTH. Get your ideas published in a reputable journal and then we can cite them. — goethean 00:34, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

@goethean : Are there any "neutral historians" that argue to the contrary? No. However, there ARE IN FACT neutral histories discussing this (The book Kirstallnacht already used as a ref for example, or the several german histories I linked (now archived)). Further, as I already stipulated, this is a relatively minor item in the context of the holocaust. But this is not an article about the holocaust, it is an article about gun control, and MANY works on gun control bring it up. You are declaring those opinions to be fringe, but I would contest that opinion, and say you must bring that up as an RFC/DR on that specific issue, as it has been raised widely. The fact that gun control is highly contentious and that there exists a great controversy does not make one side fringe, particularly not when the advocates of that side are steamrolling the opposition in SCOTUS. As much of this debate was happening in the context of the pending Heller decision, it is instructive to note that the "anti-nazi-gun-control-meme" arguers were soundly defeated, and those making the meme argument were victorious (particularly the NRA and Halbrook who was cited directly by SCOTUS). Therefore, the burden of proof and argument that they are fringe lies with you. Gaijin42 (talk) 22:35, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

There are no neutral historians writing about gun control that mention Kristallnacht. The only scholars who mention it in connection with gun control are scholars explaining the belief system of the extreme right. TFD (talk) 23:02, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

You are declaring those opinions to be fringe, but I would contest that opinion, and say you must bring that up as an RFC/DR on that specific issue, as it has been raised widely.

ROG5728's moving he section from "arguments" to "history" was illegitimate. Why is his move a-okay but mobing it back requires and RFC/DR? Answer: it doesn't. The current location of the section is a flagrant violation of a core Misplaced Pages policy and must be rectified immediately. — goethean 00:34, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Your assertions are based on nothing but your personal opinion and original research. Our arguments are backed by sources. You wish to dispute those sources, and such must be done through a wider consensus. Gaijin42 (talk) 01:42, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

My basis is in addition to Gaijin42's point and different. Something that obviously falls within the topic is germane. (see the two common dictionary definitions above) Trying to set up more stringent standards for inclusion of something that clearly falls within the topic is not right. North8000 (talk) 00:01, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

The standard is WP:WEIGHT - we put in what experts think is important not what was on the Glenn Beck show last week. If we include gun ordinances of 1930s Germany, then we should include the laws of other states and other decades as well. TFD (talk) 00:14, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Something that obviously falls within the topic is germane. (see the two common dictionary definitions above)

Sure. But Nazi Germany is not germane to the topic of this article. — goethean 00:34, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

The gun control of Nazi Germany is. North8000 (talk) 01:17, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

your assertion that only those of the extreme right mention is not neutral. Further, even if true, it is a highly notable view and all notable viewpoints must be included.

Kristallnacht, p68
48 hours of Kristallnacht
Courts, Law, and Justice
thee complete history of the holocaust", p68 "Perhaps to help insure the Jews could not fight back in the future, the Minister of the Interior issued regulations against Jews' possession of weapons on November 11. This prohibited Jews from "acquiring, possessing, and carrying firearms and ammunition, as well as truncheons or stabbing weapons. Those now possessing weapons and ammunition are at once to turn them over to the local police authority"
Same quote "The Racial State : Germany, 1933-1945" p92
Der Weg in Den Krieg 1938 (The road to war in 1938) : p28 (bad google translate) "On the morning after Kristallnacht , when Goebbels ordered by Hitler arrest of "25-30000 Jews" in ... let fear of possible attacks the Jewish Berlin Police President Helldorf "the Jews completely disarm"
Reichskristallnacht: Antisemitismus Und Judenverfolgung Im Dritten Reich (Kristallnacht : Anti-semism and persocution of thew Jews in the Third Reich) "The finding of Jewish shops, stores and warehouses must be made in consultation with the competent mayors and mayors, also the itinerant activity. All Jews are to be disarmed ."
Reichskristallnacht (Wilfred Mairgunther)p74 : (translate) "All Jews are to be disarmed . Shoot at resistivity immediately to the ground"
"Reichskristallnacht" in Bremen p43 : On the fateful proved the two sentences: "All Jews are to be disarmed . Shoot at resistivity immediately to the ground. "Staff leader Römpagel testified at the party later trial, he was, as he ...
Die Rolle des Propagandaministers Joseph Goebbels im Licht seiner Tagebucheinträge vom 10. November 1938 bis 17. November 1938 " The term Kristallnacht was a ... also ordered that he complete disarmament of Jewish citizens"

Gaijin42 (talk) 01:20, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

None of your sources are about gun control, they are about the holocaust. Only highly ideological writers on gun control mention the German laws. TFD (talk) 01:28, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Excellent movement of the goalposts! Earlier the argument was that history books didn't cover it. POV on the part of sources is perfectly acceptable. As I can find dozens perhaps hundreds of gun control books discussing this topic I look forward to hearing your next objection! Gaijin42 (talk) 01:36, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

POV on the part of sources is perfectly acceptable.

As is patent bullshit, apparently. — goethean 01:38, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

@TFD - Gun control sources discussing this, excluding the many obvious POV refs (which are still valid refs BTW) (Many citing the people already discussed here, but shows that those peoples viewpoints are covered/discussed in neutral texts)

Guns in American Society : An Encyclopedia... - Interestingly this includes a chapter/essay making the meme, and a chapter arguing against the meme.
Open Fire, Understanding Global Gun Cultures
Arming and Disarming, A History of Gun Control in Canada
Gun Fight - The Battle Over The Right to Bear Arms in America - A neutral book includes meta-discussion, specifically discussing the JPFO opinions
Gun Control (Opposing Viewpoints Digests)
Encyclopedia of Gun Control and Gun Rights
Gun Control on Trial : Inside the Supreme Court Battle over the Second Amendment (citing JPFO)
Gun Control (Christina Fisanick) (citing Halbrook)
Big Bang : the Loud Debate over Gun Control
Shooters : Myths and Realities of America's Gun Cultures
The gun Control Debate - You Decide

Gaijin42 (talk) 14:56, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Regardless, maybe we should have only the straightforward facts in the history section and move the rest to the opinions section. North8000 (talk) 11:49, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

The fact that this article focuses on the Nazi disarmament of the Jews and attempts to spin it into part of the history of gun control using talking points created by anti-gun control activist is not a neutral presentation of the facts. It is allowing anti-gun control activists to write this article in partisan, non-neutral way. The entire Nazi section must be moved from history. Your placing it in the history section is a flagrant, actionable violation of Misplaced Pages's non-negotiable neutral point of view policy. — goethean 13:21, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Historical facts do not have a POV. That those facts are primarily (but NOT exclusively as the several sources I have linked show (how many have you shown again? oh thats right, none.) interesting to those with a certain POV does not make the facts themselves POV. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:01, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Try that line in a history article, and you will get laughed at and schooled. The selection of which facts to present (in this case, your presenting the facts selected by those with a well-documented flagrant pro-gun ideological commitment) is the primary vehicle for POVs. The idea that gun control is primarily associated with authoritarian regimes is a thesis of the right-wing media and of anti-gun control activists. The presence of the material related to Nazis in the history section continues to be a flagrant, clear volation of Misplaced Pages's neutral point of view policy. — goethean 14:14, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, you certainly do reverse you self a lot on that one depending on your POV. I've seen you argue many times that if it's in a wp:RS that's enough to make it un-removable. And if you want it out, now you say that if the simple (historical) facts are those that tend to get selected by one side to make their point, then that is enough to exclude them even if covered and supported by a wp:rs. North8000 (talk) 14:21, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Clarifying, I am pointing out that arguments that you have previously made would support inclusion of this material. North8000 (talk) 15:03, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Please stick to the topic rather than engaging in irrelevant rhetorical nonsense. — goethean 15:09, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

We are not stating that gun control is associated with authoritarian regimes (although we previously did). Again, that facts can be used to support a particular POV does not make the fact itself POV. It is true, It is verifiable, and it is notable. That you do not like the people who make it notable is irrelevant. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:05, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Please read and respond to my comments. Your spinning Nazi rule into a part of the history gun control is not a fact, it is a highly contentious argument. It belongs in the Opinions section. — goethean 15:09, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Your assertion that it is not a fact is ludicrous. It is documented by numerous primary and secondary sources. The importance/relevance of that fact is contentious, but not the fact itself. Please note the multiple gun control sources I linked above discussing this. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:18, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

What is truly ludicrous is your attempt to place a narrative created by a political activist into the history section of this article, and calling it neutral. — goethean 15:27, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

You have zero sources to the contrary. Your POV is pure OR. Some sources say that the Nazi use of gun control should not be used in the context of modern gun control debates - Zero sources say that the Nazis did not actually use gun control against the Jews. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:38, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

You are talking nonsense. We have a professor quoted in the article saying that it is an absurd question to ask whether the Nazis were pro- or anti-gun control. If one attempts to neutrally interpret his words, it is clear that he is saying that Halbrook's activist version of history, and his attempts to associate gun control with Nazis, are absurd. — goethean 15:54, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Right, the nazis are not clearly pro or anti gun control, because they used restrictive gun control against some groups,and relaxed gun control for other groups (significantly their own SS and SA paramilitary groups, as well as the NSDAP). That in no way contradicts that they USED gun control against the jews. Harcourt specifically admits this. "To be sure, the Nazis were intent on killing Jewish persons and used the gun laws and regulations to further the genocide" and " I would have to conclude, at least preliminarily from this straightforward exercise in statutory interpretation, that the Nazis favored less gun control for the "trustworthy" German citizen than the predecessor Weimar Republic, while disarming the Jewish population and engaging in genocide". In fact, this "hybrid" model of gun control makes the argument MORE RELEVANT. By disarming A, while arming B, it makes it much easier for B to kill A. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:03, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Gaijin42, Guns in American Society: An Encyclopedia of History, Politics, Culture, and the Law, Volume 1says "Sporting purpose first became a factor in gun control policy following World War I in Europe, when governments prohibited civilian ownership of military firearms in both Weimar and Nazi Germany and other European regimes (p. 549). No surprise a 756 page Encyclopedia would mention German laws in the 1920s but significantly it draws no connection to these laws and the Nazi rise to power or Kristallnacht. Open Fire says (p. 38) "He points out, for example, that while the pro-gun NRA and the pro-gun Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JFPO) both deploy the Hitler-as gun-control-proponent argument in their literature, the pro-gun white supremacist organization, National Alliance, reads the 1938 German gun registration laws as being a more toward gun liberalization." Notice he provides parity to the NRA and white supremacists and sees views as fringe. TFD (talk) 17:48, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Contrasting and commenting on multiple opposing points of view is not the same thing as declaring one of them to be fringe. Guns in american society talks about nazi gun confiscation multiple times. chapters/essays discussing it include "Germany Gun Laws" , "Holocaust Imagery and Gun Control" , the section on Halbrook, "Switzerland, Gun Laws", by Halbrook, JPFO section, etc. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:16, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

There is some additional discussion regarding this at my talk page. North8000 (talk) 17:55, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

What about gun control at Busch Gardens and Epcot Center? Anyone have the official rulebook in Cyrillic? Also, how is a Nazi pogrom equivalent to legislated background checks on gun purchasers? What about Gatorland? SPECIFICO talk 01:24, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

germany first sentence

The characterization of german laws as gun control is not purely by conservatives (although those who think that fact is important might be).

For example, the salon article which was just added to attempt to source the current text says

The law did prohibit Jews and other persecuted classes from owning guns, but this should not be an indictment of gun control in general. Does the fact that Nazis forced Jews into horrendous ghettos indict urban planning? Should we eliminate all police officers because the Nazis used police officers to oppress and kill the Jews? What about public works — Hitler loved public works projects? Of course not. These are merely implements that can be used for good or ill, much as gun advocates like to argue about guns themselves. If guns don’t kill people, then neither does gun control cause genocide (genocidal regimes cause genocide).

This is saying that the nazi laws were gun control laws, but that that should not be used as an argument against current gun control efforts. It does not say that it was not gun control, or that only conservatives say it is gun control.

I have removed 2 sources that were backing the first statement, because they did not in fact back the statement. They were discussing conservative comparisons of Bloomberg to Hitler (but in actuality it was Lenin) and have no content discussing the characterization of the german gun laws. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:41, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Gaijin, please give a careful reading of my sentence and the sources. My sentence did not refer to laws. I do believe the sources back the sentence I wrote to address your tags. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 17:16, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

"The disarmament of Jews in Nazi Germany has been characterized as gun control by the NRA and many conservatives". The presence or absence of the word "laws" is irrelevant. The same criticisms apply. The two sources did not mention nazi actions being characterized as gun control by anyone. Both sources claimed that Beck had compared Bloomberg to Hitler, but in fact he had compared Bloomberg to Lenin (as many stories including one of the ones you linked later corrected). Between them completely mischaracterizing Beck's statement, and the fact that neither they nor Beck are stating anything regarding Nazi actions as gun control (as opposed to some other type of confiscatory action, theft, whatever) the sources do not support the first sentence. The Salon reference does support that statement, but also supports saying that non-conservatives also do so (since Salon itself is characterizing Nazi actions as gun control, per the quote above)Gaijin42 (talk) 18:04, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

You are using Salon' article, "The Hitler Gun Control Lie Gun rights activists who cite the dictator as a reason against gun contrrol have their history dangerously wrong" As should be obvious, the article is about how extremist fabricate history in order to support their position, which btw is what all the sources you presented have said. That is no reason to include Nazi Germany here, anymore than an article called "Larouchies claim world leaders secret reptiles", is reason to add that information to the articles about the world leaders named. TFD (talk) 18:17, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Focus on one issue at a time. A major problem in this dispute (by all parties) is the moving target. If we can stay focused on answering each sub-dispute we will get much further. The point under question in this section is very narrow. Are the only sources that describe Nazi actions as gun control conservative? The answer is no. The salon article describes Nazi actions as gun control. This means only that we must reword the first sentence to be accurate. The larger questions of the section remain, and should be addressed. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:38, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

It belongs because it is:

Government regulation of the sale and ownership of firearms (Dictionary.com definition of gun control)
Regulation of the selling, owning, and use of guns (Webster's definition of gun control)

So it belongs in the gun control article because it is gun control. This isn't that complicated. North8000 (talk) 19:42, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

That's not how Misplaced Pages works. — goethean 19:45, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Apparently you think that wikipedia works by "Whatever goethean says goes", since actual sources contradicting my point are not available. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:50, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I think that Misplaced Pages works by following the NPOV policy, a policy which you have violated flagrantly. Sources such as the Salon article have been presented. Unsurprisingly, you dismissed them immediately. — goethean 19:56, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Where in the salon article does it say "Nazi Germany did not implement gun control", or "The laws/actions taken to confiscate jewish weapons were not gun control", or "sometimes (not specifically referring to Nazi germany), laws which confiscate weapons are generally considered something other than gun control". In fact, per the blockquote above, it specifically DOES identify the german actions as gun control! That it later goes on to say "And this should not be used as an argument against current gun control laws" is irrelevant, as that is not what this section says!!!Gaijin42 (talk) 20:03, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I guess you are right. We are just doing a perfectly neutral survey of the history of gun control, and we just happened to spend 40% of it on the Nazis. An innocent mistake, I'm sure. I'm sure that it has nothing at all to do with popular NRA talking points equating US gun control with authoritarian regimes. — goethean 20:10, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Nice avoidance of my point, which is that Salon does not back the current text, but in fact backs the description of Nazi actions as gun control... That other areas are not developed is a trigger for people to go develop them, not to delete the developed part. However, as almost 1/2 of this section is dedicated to one persons opinion, and one who agrees with the core facts, yet disagrees with their importance, the length issue would be easily resolvable by reducing his prominence. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:48, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Why is the fact that Weimar gun control laws continued in Nazi Germany significant? As explained in all your sources, it is only of significance to fringe elements in the U.S. who associate gun control with tyranny and misrepresent history. TFD (talk) 21:02, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I am more than happy to cut the Weimar part, I believe that was added by someone on "your side", to establish more context for the anti-jew actions. I believe the "trustworthyness" part was used against jews, who were considered by definition not trustworthy, but as that is not specifically discussed, and not directly sourced, we can avoid it for now. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:06, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

It looks like Gaijin42 thinks that the extended back-and-forth of scholars about the meaning of Nazi gun laws are absolutely essential to a general article on gun control. This is, of course, obviously complete nonsense. — goethean 21:23, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

It looks like Goethean thinks that unilateral gutting of a section under discussion is within wiki policy. This is, of course, obviously complete nonsense. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:33, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

My edit removed everything except for the first two sentences of the section. The rest is extraneous, excessive detail which can be treated at the main article, Gun politics in Germany. There is absolutely no defensible reason to include such excessive, extraneous detail and a debate among scholars about the import of 1930s Nazi disarmament in this general article, apart from your desire to impose political talking points on this article in a manner that flagrantly violates Misplaced Pages policy. — goethean 21:38, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

If you want to cut the extended back and forth, I would start with the first of the longer Harcourt quotes. Halbrook's actual opinion is one sentence, and we then spend the next half the section attempting to rebut that. The first long quote (or at least the first half of the first quote) is not directly addressing the facts of what happened, nor does it directly address Halbrook's point. The other long quote by Harcourt is more on topic. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:37, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Go fly a kite. The whole debate, and 95% of the Nazi material is off-topic in this article and constitutes a WP:POVFORK of Gun Politics in Germany. — goethean 21:40, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

The facts identified in that article in no way disagree with the ones in this section, so claiming it as a pov fork is weak. It is your opinion that "Gun Politics" and "Gun Control" are the same thing? (I will admit that they have a significant amount of overlap, but you can certainly have politics without control etc, and gun control as an independent topic is beyond notable. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:45, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Also, WP:RELART. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:47, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Gun politics is the process by which the level of gun control is decided in a political entity. It's the same topic. — goethean 21:52, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

That makes no sense at all. You are saying that "politics" and the end product of legislation are the same topic??? North8000 (talk) 23:59, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

@goethean : What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. to put everyone on the same playing field, with the same standards, if it is not sufficient to say that nazi's passed gun control, because the common definition of gun control is "legislation restricting..." etc, please provide multiple reliable sources backing your pov that gun politics and gun control are the same topic. Gaijin42 (talk) 00:31, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, Gun control in the United States redirects to Gun politics in the United States, so maybe you should take your flabbergasted disbelief and demand for reliable sources over there. — goethean 00:29, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

So thats a no then, you won't be providing any sources to back up your POV? Gaijin42 (talk) 14:01, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Okay, let's back up here. So your claim is that even though Gun control in the United States redirects to Gun politics in the United States, the two are completely separate topics, and I need to prove to you with multiple reliable sources that they are the same topic. Please confirm that that's your claim. — goethean 15:10, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

the current state of a wikipedia redirect is in no way a reliable source to determine anything on any topic. If the editors of any two topics have chosen to deal with them in a combined article, it may or may not meet policy, may or may not have consensus, may or may not be factually correct, or a million other things. Its entirely meaningless. WP:NOTSOURCE Gaijin42 (talk) 15:34, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

The germane discussion is whether gun control and gun politics are the same thing. That question transposed to the USA is a different question, albiet I think they both (independently) have the same answer which is "no". Even more so for the general case where controlling mechanisms don't necessarily come from the political arena. North8000 (talk) 15:39, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Gun control in Bolshevist Russia sourced entirely to Russian sources

Per WP:NOENG, I hereby request that an English translation of the relevant portions of the Russian sources used in the "Gun control in Bolshevist Russia" section. If this is not provided within seven days, I will remove the material from the article. — goethean 18:34, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

WP:NOENG:

When using a machine translation of source material, editors should be reasonably certain that the translation is accurate and the source is appropriate. Editors should not use machine translations of non-English sources in contentious articles or biographies of living people.

— goethean 18:37, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Additionally, it looks like these are random website with no claim to reliability. — goethean 18:40, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I work with several russians, I will ask for a translation. However, to address goethean's assertion, at a minimum Kommersant would be a reliable source. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:45, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

There is no indication that gun control laws in the Soviet Union were different from any other country in Europe and certainly not a tight as in the UK. There was no law that said only Communist Party members could own firearms and the laws were enforced through the ordinary not political police, and often in a haphazard manner. Again this is the argumentum ad hitlerum. "You support gun control? Guess who else supported it? The Commies!" TFD (talk) 18:54, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Additionally, the "antik-lawyer" is a convenience link to a scholarly article. http://www.kreml.ru/ru/science/conferences/2008/historicalArm/thesis/ShelkovnikovaED/ This author has had multiple articles published regarding gun laws in Russia, including "National Hunting" a russian magazine. http://www.journalhunt.ru/arhiv-nomerov/2008-god/dekabr/article_628.html

Finally, you are misapplying NOENG, which is merely referring to quoting sources in the machine translation section. As we are not using quotes, that portion is not applicable. In the cite section, you may request a quote for validation, but the machine translation is quite clear, so I think you are attempting to wikilawyer, however, I will still obtain a human translation for you. @TFD, again, nobody is making any arguments about modern support of gun control - but your attempt to whitewash all historical misuses of gun control is massively hypocritical. Shall we delete the section on australia, because it is there to show how well gun control works?Gaijin42 (talk) 19:03, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

The point is that these sections are partisan arguments and garbage history. — goethean 19:14, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

your point is pov and or. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:21, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

You can read a "Bing" translation of "Historic weapons in Museum and private collections" here. It says that the Communists seized antique weapons. (You should btw use articles as sources, not abstracts.) Presumably they let them keep their recent models. TFD (talk) 20:14, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Which is why I used to convenience link to the entire article in the actual cite, which addresses the point made in the article directly. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:44, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Translation provided Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Russia#Translation_request Gaijin42 (talk) 14:08, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I cannot find anything about the December 10, 1918 decree "On the Surrender of Weapons" by the Sovnarkom of the RSFSR in any sources about gun control or Russian history. The relevant policy is WP:WEIGHT - if no one outside the set on individuals writing on this discussion page do not think something is important, it would be tendentious for us to push it into the article. TFD (talk) 17:39, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

(Sorry for the horribile cyrillic mangled URLS) The russian wikipedia site lists this in the history of weapons laws. Really not surprising that something that happened 100 years ago, in a time/place where censorship and suppression of information and dissent was the rule,and those that disagreed with the plan were likely summarily executed, is difficult to find information on... WP:BIAS.

http://ru.wikipedia.org/%D0%9E%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%8B

Here is a second translation of the relevant points currently cited, done by a friend of mine.

Here you go. I have to say I was impressed with the machine translation. It was very close in essence.
It wasn’t until December 10, 1918 that a decree "On the surrender of weapons" was signed binding "all people and all institutions of civil authorities to hand over all serviceable and unserviceable rifles, machine guns and revolvers of all systems, ammunition and swords of any type." What made this decree truly revolutionary was that it did not apply to members of the Communist Party. A special memorandum which was released alongside the decree allowed members of the RCP (b) – Russian Communist Party (Bolshevik) – retain their existing rifles and revolvers.
and
After the October Revolution of 1917, the position of the collectors of ancient weapons changed radically – the famed SNK RSFSR Decree dated December 10, 1918 "On the surrender of weapons." In accordance with RCP (b) Committee’s stipulations, only members of the party could avoid their weapons being seized, but even they were allowed to keep no more than one rifle and one revolver per person. The right to possession of arms, and thus now secret and carefully concealed collection of them, took on a class and party affiliation.

Gaijin42 (talk) 18:22, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Your first link is to a wiki that is referenced to the antik article. Can you provide a link to the actual decree? As I said, no books I have found about either gun control or Russia mention the decree. The echo chamber says that the decree was issued in October, but that could be due to the different calendars. Can you provide a link to the actual decree? It seems odd to use an article about antique rifles in modern Russia as a source for gun laws in 1918. TFD (talk) 18:59, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

The antique gun collection article is reviewing the entire history of gun control in Russia/USSR, so seems a perfect source?

Another site giving an overview of russian gun laws, bringing up the 1918 decree http://bestreferat.su/Gosudarstvo-i-pravo/Ugolovno-pravovoy-analiz-nezakonnogo-priobreteniya-peredachi-sbyta-hraneniya-perevozki-ili-nosheniya-oruzhiya-ego-osnovnyh-chastey-boepripasov-vzryvchatyh-veschestv-i-vzryvnyh-ustroystv/#_ftnref3

I am finding a few dates, oct 24, 1919, dec 10 1918, oct 10 1918.

This is not the decree itself, but a few subsequent decree that refers to and modifies the first. I am looking for the original decree. (Ive found several places quoting it, but noe that hve just the decree yet)However, as we prefer secondary sources to primary, I am not sure that is a requirement.

I think this source has the decree, listed as oct 24 1919 http://books.google.com/books?id=cSsOAQAAIAAJ&q=%22%D0%9E%D0%B1%D1%8F%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8C+%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%B5+%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5,+%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%B5+%D1%83%D1%87%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B6%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F+%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE%22&dq=%22%D0%9E%D0%B1%D1%8F%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8C+%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%B5+%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5,+%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%B5+%D1%83%D1%87%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B6%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F+%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SQbCUfDCEeOrjAK6uYGwAg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA

Here is another Decleration of the Rights of the Working and Exploited People, from Jan 3, which was incorporated into the 1918 constitution (where it is listed as 2.g), where II.5 declares "In the interest of full power for the working masses and eliminate any possibility of restoration of the power of the exploiters decreed arms workers, education of the socialist Red Army of workers and peasants and complete disarmament of the propertied classes."

Gaijin42 (talk) 19:57, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Also this biography of lenin (link is to search result to see google translate!) https://www.google.com/search?q=%22%D0%98%D0%BD%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BA%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8E+%D0%BA+%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%83+%D0%A1%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B0+%D0%9D%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BD%D1%8B%D1%85+%D0%9A%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2+%D0%BE+%D1%81%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%87%D0%B5+%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B8%D1%8F%22&rlz=1C1OPRB_enUS508US508&oq=%22%D0%98%D0%BD%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BA%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8E+%D0%BA+%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%83+%D0%A1%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B0+%D0%9D%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BD%D1%8B%D1%85+%D0%9A%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2+%D0%BE+%D1%81%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%87%D0%B5+%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B8%D1%8F%22&aqs=chrome.0.57j62.2106j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=%22%D0%98%D0%BD%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BA%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8E+%D0%BA+%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%83+%D0%A1%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B0+%D0%9D%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BD%D1%8B%D1%85+%D0%9A%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2+%D0%BE+%D1%81%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%87%D0%B5+%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B8%D1%8F%22&safe=off&rlz=1C1OPRB_enUS508US508&source=lnms&tbm=bks&sa=X&ei=Yw3CUY6IEYOKjAL4_4DADw&ved=0CA4Q_AUoAg&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.48175248,d.cGE&fp=4a7a399b28464a68&biw=1920&bih=976

Gaijin42 (talk) 20:00, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

And another article from kommersant.ru (one of the bigger russian newspapers), generally about the confiscation of arms by the revolution http://www.kommersant.ru/pda/power.html?id=1412254 Gaijin42 (talk) 20:02, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

An article from russian gun magazine "Kalishnikov". The relevant portion is on page "43" (really page 3?), just to the upper left of the first photograph. (the 1918 date is a nice search term to get there) http://www.kalashnikov.ru/upload/medialibrary/fde/042_051.pdf Gaijin42 (talk) 20:06, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Your source quotes the decree:

"In order to combat the illegal possession of weapons, with the careless and inept handling, the Council of people's commissars decreed:

1. store and use firearms only by persons who by the nature of service is set to weapons (war, consisting of parts of the troops, police, etc.), as well as the persons to whom this right is granted by orders of the Council of people's commissars.

4. to prosecute and detain immediately, banning imprisonment for not less than six months upon conviction, persons guilty of committing the following acts:

a) possession of firearms without a legal right to it, even if the store did not have a criminal purpose ... "

There is nothing that says only Communists or all Communists may own firearms. How is this in any way noteworthy? It provides a minimum sentence for illegal possession of a firearm of six months, in Canada it is 3 years.

TFD (talk) 20:35, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

As quoted by several of the secondary sources (again, superior to primary source original research), there was an accompanying rule excluding party members from the restriction. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:41, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

No, if secondary sources erroneously report something in a primary source then we go with the primary source. Usually that is no problem, because we have more than one reliable secondary source. That is why btw that we should use sources that are actually about the subject. TFD (talk) 21:04, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I believe you are 100% incorrect on primary vs secondary sources. Further, they are not in conflict. The secondary sources say that the primary source was supplemented by an additional rule. therefore, the fact that the primary source does not include that rule is in no way contradictory to the secondary source! However, per your second statement, we do have multiple reliable secondary sources, like the two newspaper articles discussing russian gun control laws, and the magazine article specifically discussing confiscation of arms during the revolution? "Account and Control, State control of the arms trade in the years of Soviet power". Gaijin42 (talk) 21:19, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

The reason you are having trouble finding sources for the views you want to include is that they are fringe. Policy says they should be excluded. It is a lot easier to just put in what mainstream sources say. TFD (talk) 21:43, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I must have missed it where I was complaining about not finding sources. I think i've found quite a few. There are no views I am trying to include. Just facts, and these are not fringe facts. Nobody is disputing this. How many sources do you think there need to be to back two factual sentences with no opinions stated? Any issue I may have with source has much more to do with finding something that happened 100 years ago, where sources are in russian, and from the most heavily censored and memory-hole prone government in history. Gaijin42 (talk) 22:26, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

So why do we mention that owning weapons without a permit was illegal post WWI Russia when it was illegal in over 100 other countries at the time and still is. I believe it was also illegal in tsarist Russia. It is only relevant if we want to draw a connection between communism and gun control. TFD (talk) 23:15, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

RFC

As it is clear we are at a stalemate in this discussion, to avoid escalations and another possible edit war, I am going to create an RFC, and try to draw in relevant groups to get a wider consensus.

Please consider joining the feedback request service.

An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following lists:

When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the lists. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

TL;DR Summary : Is the use of gun restriction legislation or other confiscations by totalitarian governments (Nazi, Communist etc) accurately described as "Gun Control". Are such instances appropriate for inclusion in the Gun Control article. (Details at RFC in article) Gaijin42 (talk) 15:54, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Full RFC questions, broken out to keep transcluded RFC small.

Some of the items in this RFC are worded slightly convolutedly, this is so that it is easy to answer in a support all/oppose all fashion, however support/objection to some items but not others is of course perfectly allowed. I have attempted to bold where that is the case to avoid confusion.

In an attempt to get a wide consensus, the following wikiprojects were neutrally notified of this RFC Politics ,Politics/Fascism ‎ ,Military history ‎ ,European history ‎ ,Law ‎,History ‎,Notability/Noticeboard ‎ ,Neutral point of view/Noticeboard ‎ ,Firearms ‎,Reliable sources/Noticeboard ‎ ,Fringe theories/Noticeboard

Did totalitarian governments pass legislation or implement policies to confiscate guns (ie, this is not fictional made up history)
Was doing so not coincidental (ie, They built roads/schools too!) but an action intended to help suppress resistance to their regime or eliminate undesirables
1. Germany confiscating the weapons of Jews and other "untrustworthy" people (while simultaneously relaxing restrictions on trustworthy Germans)
2. Russia confiscating the weapons during the revolution (per The 1918 constitution (google trans) "In the interest of full power for the working masses and eliminate any possibility of restoration of the power of the exploiters decreed arms workers, education of the Socialist Red Army of workers and peasants and complete disarmament of the propertied classes"
3. Other examples (if properly sourced)
Can such legislation/confiscation can objectively be described as instances of Gun Control (Some have argued that only restrictions implemented by democratically elected governments, and applied in a non-discriminatory manner and for "good ends" meet the definition of gun control)
- Another phrasing : Is gun control a tool which can be used for good or bad purposes, or does the definition exclude bad purposes
Are these instances of gun control (assuming #3) notable as part of the overall history of gun control (either individually or collectively as "Use of gun control by totalitarian governments" )
1. Are these items discussed by multiple sources (albeit controversial and opinionated sources)
2. Are these sources presumed to be reliable or not WP:FRINGE unless shown/argued on a case by case basis (It has been argued that by definition, the only people discussing these facts are fringe unreliable sources)
  - Is it the case that no sources disagree with the fundamental assertions of #1 & #2 - (though many sources disagree with the implications of those assertions (below)).
    - There is significant debate about the importance of these facts within the historical context - IE would jews or kulaks having more access to guns made a difference
Because people use fact A to make argument B, where B is very controversial/fringy, Is it false that' A by definition is controversial/fringy?
- many/most of those sources go on to use these facts in even more controversial arguments
- regarding modern gun control, as a slippery slope to more totalitarian governments etc
- attempting to to compare modern gun control proponents to nazis/communists
Do These facts (and possibly even the more controversial opinions) meet WP:WEIGHT/WP:IRS for inclusion in the article etc.
- Misplaced Pages articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered
- If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;
  - Halbrook, Hemmenway, Zelman, NRA, Kozinski, etc
- Misplaced Pages articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Common sources of bias include political, financial, religious, philosophical, or other beliefs. Sometimes "non-neutral" sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject

Point of order: The "survey" consistes of six questions. It is not possible to support or oppose a question, only to answer "yes" or "no". It would make more sense to create a sub-section for each question, in which participants can answer "yes" or "no", giving their reasons for that answer to that question, and a general discussion below. A "yes to all" subsection could be added at the top in place of "support all". Scolaire (talk) 16:57, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Per Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment Statements are often phrased as questions, for example: "Should this article say in the lead that John Smith was a contender for the Pulitzer Prize?", and does not give guidance on multiple points/questions. However, if you think we should break the survey section into a survey for each point I'm fine with that. As nobody has answered in the "split" section, I will work on doing so.Gaijin42 (talk) 17:04, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Survey

To make closing easier, do not include debate in the survey section, , just a !vote and a brief reason

Support All

support all as nominator Obviously.
Support Per Dictionary.com, gun control is: "Government regulation of the sale and ownership of firearms", per Websters gun control is: "Regulation of the selling, owning, and use of guns". These are obviously that and significant examples of that. Wording details can be discussed & worked out. North8000 (talk) 16:39, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Support all per wiktionary:gun control Chris Troutman (talk) 16:52, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Support after looking at sources; and it's just common sense that any government that has laws against guns is practicing gun control. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 17:01, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Support. This looks like the broad, non-POV definition & historical scope the page should have. TREKphiler 20:35, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Oppose All

Support Some/Oppose Some

Did totalitarian governments pass legislation or implement policies to confiscate guns?

Was it purposeful (not coincidental)?

No, many gun control measures have alternative rationale and unintended (or unstated) consequences. Gun control exemptions for security personnel, for example, effectively disarm the poor; because only the wealthy can afford bodyguards. Gun control exemptions for police, as another example, are a form of job protection encouraging taxpayers to support higher wages for individuals providing a level of protection citizens can no longer provide for themselves.Thewellman (talk) 20:54, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Can such legislation/confiscation can objectively be described as instances of Gun Control?

No, not within the context of this article. Scolaire (talk) 17:39, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Yes, given a broad definition & historical scope, which the page should have. TREKphiler 20:32, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Are these notable?

Because people use fact A to make argument B, where B is very controversial/fringy, IS IT FALSE THAT that' A by definition is controversial/fringy?

No, it is true to the extent that it is not relevant outside the context of B. Scolaire (talk) 17:39, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Is inclusion of these facts/opinions within policy?

Threaded Discussion

Neutral gun control or sources include these sources as one of their opposing viewpoints p52 p15, p15, , as well as the plethora of POV sources. Some of these sources have been cited by multiple supreme court rulings etc. That other portions of gun control history are not adequately covered is a reverse WP:OTHERSTUFF argument, and is cause to add/improve those sections, not delete/prevent this contentGaijin42 (talk) 15:54, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

It would help if you just listed and described 3 or 4 WP:RS that call these gun control and dispense with (or at least present in light of refs) most of the other discussion. If people get down to those links, they aren't likely to follow them cause they're too burned out from everything above. It seems to me it should be an easy yes if lots of sources have described it as that. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 16:26, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the above is complicated, but it is an attempt to resolve the numerous revolving objections which have been raised to this content. rarely is anyone coming out directly and saying "This is gun control", "This is not gun control", but they are often describing these actions in the context of gun control. All of the refs below are either already in the article or under various talk page discussion threads

Salon article, arguing AGAINST the more controversial arguments saying things like "The law did prohibit Jews and other persecuted classes from owning guns, but this should not be an indictment of gun control in general. ... These are merely implements that can be used for good or ill, much as gun advocates like to argue about guns themselves. If guns don’t kill people, then neither does gun control cause genocide (genocidal regimes cause genocide)." .
Stephen Halbrook (gun rights lawyer, multiple publications, cited by the Supreme Court multiple times) (entire article pretty much) Gaijin42 (talk) 16:49, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Bernard Harcourt arguing AGAINST Halbrook, in another academic journal
Lethal Laws, (Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership) Simkin, Zelman, Rice - Entire book dedicated to the more controversial topic, using historical totalitarian "gun control" as evidence.
OF GENOCIDE AND DISARMAMENT, Northwestern Journal of Criminal Law (1995), discussing previous source.
Circuit court judge Kozinski dissenting in Silveira v Locklear, a major gun control case (The majority opinion was shortly overruled later in Heller) "All too many of the other great tragedies of history— Stalin’s atrocities, the killing fields of Cambodia, the Holocaust, to name but a few—were perpetrated by armed troops against unarmed populations"
Courts Law and Justice, a law textbook In the section "Foreign examples of gun control" - "The Nasis extended these laws when they came to power by specifically forbidding Jews from owning guns or other weapons and by exempting ] from the the countries restrictive gun control laws. and are also reported to have disarmed their political opponents through strict gun control laws and mass confiscations"

Gaijin42 (talk) 16:49, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Your sources say that fringe elements in the U.S. misrepresent the gun laws of nazi Germany in order to advance their argument against gun control. TFD (talk) 16:42, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

You are declaring them as fringe, not the (other) sources, and that sources (vehemently) disagree with each other is not cause to exclude one per the policies linked directly above. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:49, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

It seems to me that a number of things are muddled up here. First of all, the question isn't (or shouldn't be) what the dictionary definition of gun control is, but what the main thrust of this article is. Secondly, the question isn't (or shouldn't be) about "good" v "bad" gun control, but control of guns to prevent crime v control of guns to curtail opposition to the state. From reading the whole article, it appears to have been conceived and developed as an article on the control of guns for the prevention of crime in modern society. What happened in Germany in the 1930s is out of place in such an article. If the "Nazi" and "Soviet Russia" arguments are ones that are used in the American debate, then they belong in the section on the debate, not in the History section. If there is a current or recent debate in Germany and the "Nazi" argument was used there, then the fact that it was used can also be stated in the section on the debate. But just throwing them all in like a smorgasbord makes for a poor article. Scolaire (talk) 17:22, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I like your alternative to "good vs bad", as it is a much better description of the two "classes" of gun control. However, attempting to restrict this article to only one of those classes is not neutrality. The Nazis also practiced Euthenasia, and that article lists their use, as well as modern palliative instances (the right to die etc) side by side. All aspects of a tool should be described. There is a highly notable debate about gun control in the public, and to exclude a major part of its history is a disservice, particularly when that history is used as a major debating point in the modern "good (sorry!)" debate. Regarding moving it to the arguments section, We originally had an "associations with authoritarian governments" section in the arguments area, but some editors insisted on gutting all of the actual arguments claiming that the speakers were fringe and unworthy of inclusion. The current state is in effect a compromise to boil down to just objective facts regarding history. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:30, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Per your !vote above, while I agree that the two classes exist, what sourcing etc indicates that the term "Gun Control" refers only to one of those classes? How is exclding this article to one class within policy? (I could see two forks one for each class, with a high level summary and disambiguation, but making the primary article completely exclude a major part of the history seems out of line). Gaijin42 (talk) 17:56, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

This appears to be a malformed RfC, and thus invalid. It seems to be asking contributors to make determinations of facts (i.e. "Did totalitarian governments pass legislation or implement policies to confiscate guns?"). It is not up to contributors to make such determinations. Instead, we should be asking whether the article is reflecting with due weight the opinions of relevant reliable sources on such matters. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:43, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

You are somewhat correct, but it is very cumbersome to state something like "Is it the consensus that reliable sources say that " before every question. Before one can decide on if a fact is due/undue in an article, one must first decide if it is in fact sourced/reliable/verifiable. This is true for every fact in wikipedia. The early questions are an attempt to determine consensus on that. However, if you think some question should be reworded or clarified, I am entirely open to that. Per WP:YESPOV "Uncontested and uncontroversial factual assertions made by reliable sources should normally be directly stated in Misplaced Pages's voice. ". The questions were to determine consensus on if #1 and #2 fall into that category. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:48, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but that makes no sense - since an RfC is needed, it seems self-evident to me that the answers can't be 'uncontested and uncontroversial'. And no, changing the questions in an ongoing RfC isn't appropriate. The whole thing is a convoluted mess anyway, and I think that people are going to have a great deal of trouble understanding what is being asked. Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment says to "Keep the RfC statement simple and succinct" - instead we have a whole series of different questions, with little indication of what content is under dispute, and no indication of which sources are being used regarding the content. Frankly, I'd scrap the lot, and then ask for an uninvolved and neutral volunteer to come up with a new RfC that outside contributors can understand and give meaningful responses to. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:04, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump, I appreciate your point, and if this devolves too far I will go in that direction (But can one in fact scrap an RFC once significant contribution has been made? ). So far you are the only one to raise this objection, and several un-involved editors have been able to successfully contribute to the RFC. I think facts can be contested or uncontested simultaneously within different populations. (Say the effectiveness of Homeopathy within the alternative medicine community vs the medical community (or editors on those topics thereof)) Within the local population of regular editors of this article, certainly it was contested. The RFC was to determine the consensus from the wider community. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:11, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)@Gaijin42: When you talk about neutrality, I presume you are referring to WP:NPOV. That does not say that if you have an article about one thing (e.g. gun control for crime prevention) it must also deal with its opposite (gun control to curtail opposition). It only says that whatever the article does deal with, it must deal with in a balanced manner. If it were decided that this article was to deal with both, then it should deal with both equally and separately. There would need to be separate sections on "History of gun control to curtail crime" and "History of gun control to curtail opposition" – not becase of neutrality, but just to save the article from being a dog's dinner. All I have said is that at the moment the article appears to be primarily about the one thing. You will note by my !votes that I would prefer it to continue that way. Scolaire (talk) 18:00, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

@Scolaire I am certainly not opposed to the two sections, but that seems like a later discussion of "how should it be included" to be resolved after "if it should be included", and it seems like you have issues with the first, but have objected to the second. Regarding the neutrality policy "An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject.". By focusing only on one class, it is my assertion that it is giving undue weight to that aspect. Doing so in essence makes this article a POV Fork of the overall gun control topic. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:11, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

"An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject." But NPOV does not say (and how could it?) what the subject of an article is to be. It is for the editors to decide by consensus what the subject of this article is to be. I have stated my view and you have stated yours. But neither of us has special authority and neither of us has a veto. I don't buy the POV fork argument. Gun control for the purpose of of crime prevention is a notable topic, and worthy of an article of its own. Of itself it has different points of view that can, and should under policy, be given due weight. Perhaps you should close this RfC and open a new one with the simple question: what should this article deal with? Scolaire (talk) 18:36, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Scolaire You have stipulated above that gun control consists of these two subclasses. How could restricting an article named after the entire topic to only one subclass not be a pov fork? "A POV fork is an attempt to evade the neutrality policy by creating a new article about a subject that is already treated in an article, often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts. " Certainly others are accusing "my side" of the same thing, but we are not saying they shouldn't include content about "as crime prevention" in any way. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:42, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

♠"control of guns to prevent crime v control of guns to curtail opposition to the state" That presupposes control of guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens has any impact on crime or use of guns by criminals, which is prima facie unlikely & unproven at best.

♠That said, the objectives of the law don't make it any less "gun control". Moreover, the objective of reducing crime has direct political implications, so it's not neutral in any case.

♠"attempting to restrict this article to only one of those classes is not neutrality" It certainly is not. Nor is it truthful to the historical record. That supporters of gun control as an (alleged) anti-crime measure disapprove of the connection is insufficient reason to exclude past examples of other uses.

♠"does not say that if you have an article about one thing...it must also deal with its opposite" As I understand it, however, the NPOV & balance requirements mean arguments against which deal with the opposite must be included, & we're back where we started.

♠The proposition there be two pages IMO is a non-starter, since I expect most of both pages to be the same content, & this seems to invite POV in a way a more general page disallows (or discourages).

♠I'm finding myself in agreement with Gaijin42. A page titled "Gun Control" that deals only with its alleged benefits to reduce crime is a POV fork. I'd suggest it violates NPOV from the start, since it presupposes a conclusion (gun control reduces crime) & then attempts to close out arguments against as off-topic. TREKphiler 21:05, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

A concern

I think we're at risk of cherry-picking here. I think it is clear that some sources will show that some totalitarian governments confiscated weapons from much of the population in one way or another; but other totalitarian governments wanted to arm more citizens. Picking examples of one side without showing the other... hmm. We might as well devote half of the moustache article to lengthy prose discussing Hitler and Stalin's preferred facial hair; you know what that means about moustaches, don't you, readers? bobrayner (talk) 18:04, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

@bobrayner Certainly totalitarian governments armed some citizens. As stated in both the existing sections, we are (or have been depending on the current state of the article) quite clear that they attempted to disarm those that were being oppressed, while at the same time further arming the oppressors. That in no way invalidates that it was used as a tool of that oppression. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:15, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Framing gun control like that - at length - is part of the problem, not part of the solution. bobrayner (talk) 20:57, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

The article definitely needs material on other countries with gun control laws, but rather than complain it's not there, as the editor does below, people should put it in. (I would if I were more interested in the topic.) I'd be interested in seeing what gun laws of Venezuela are. Or those under Fidel Castro or Spain under Franco, just for starters. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 22:02, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

This RFC is misleading and inappropriately worded

The wording of the RFC is incredibly misleading to the point that it is very, very difficult to assume good faith. User:Gaijin42 has used highly deceptive wording in order to manipulate the results of this RFC. The misleading RFC should be withdrawn. The question is not and has never been whether the Nazis took guns away from Jews, and User:Gaijin42 knows very, very well that this is not the question and never has been the question. The real questions are:

Does the 'Nazi disarmament of German Jews' subsection constitute a POV fork of Gun politics in Germany?
Is this entire article a POV fork of Gun politics? If not, why does it exist separately from Gun politics? What is the substantive topical difference?
Should a contentious, partisan version of history (i.e., placing a highly partisan section on Nazi disarmament of the Jews in an article on gun control in order to argue by association against gun control) be in the History section, or the "Opinions" section?
Does the section give UNDUE weight to partisan, fringe, unreliable sources?
Why does this article's history section provide such an obviously misleading, partisan, highly POV version of history (i.e., only Nazi Germany and "Bolshevist Russia" are covered in detail)? How can this violation of the NPOV policy be corrected?

I will not be participating in this sad joke of an RFC. User:Gaijin42 should be warned for wasting the community's time by creating an obviously misleading, deceptive, and highly POV RFC. — goethean 18:08, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

To me the RFC looks pretty neutrally worded. Yours is clearly not. And your complaint is that the RFC should like like yours but doesn't. North8000 (talk) 18:15, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

In addition to North's reply, I would specifically object to your 3rd point and say "Thats a major reason for my RFC", to determine consensus on if this is a partisan view of history, or objective fact. (Which certainly is then later used as a partisan argument). Gaijin42 (talk) 18:18, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Without commenting on the remainder of what Goethean says above, I must admit that I can see the logic of the assertion that we don't need an article on Gun control as well as one on Gun politics. If there are legitimate reasons for having two articles, I'd be interested to see them. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:19, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

AndyTheGrumpIs it your assertion that gun politics and gun control are by definition the same thing? There are many many books written on "Gun Control", and many written on "Gun Politics". Certainly they are closely related topics, with a good deal of overlap, but I have been asked for sources many times to prove that "gun legislation" is in fact "gun control", and I would ask for the same level of diligence regarding goethean's assertion. Further, if the two topics are merged, it does not substantially change the debate at hand about if the sections under discussion are appropriate or not, regardless of the larger venue.Gaijin42 (talk) 18:22, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Of course legislation is control - this is precisely what such legislation is for. If that is the only argument for separate articles, I can see no reason whatsoever not to merge immediately. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:31, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump If you read back in the archives of this article, you will find many people attempting to argue that mere legislation is not sufficient to label as "control" (and several other threads in the archive) I don't object to a merge overall, but I would object to a merge that conveniently drops this content without conclusion of the consensus buildingGaijin42 (talk) 18:38, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Posting a link to your own arguments doesn't prove them correct. And as for 'consensus', I cannot see one - instead I see a few people 'supporting' something that the rest of us either can't understand, or don't actually see as relevant. This RfC is going to resolve precisely nothing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:45, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't posting them to show them correct or to show historical consensus, merely showing that some had made arguments that gun legislation and confiscation is not necessarily "gun control"Gaijin42 (talk) 19:01, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes it does, because we already have a Gun politics in Germany article which covers much of the material which you have strived so mightily to keep here. — goethean 18:26, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Im more than happy to go back to an overall "Associations with Authoritariansim" as we had before or "As a tool of oppression" (as suggested by Scolaire) to cover all of the relevant issues together. I still posit that the factual use of it under those (any) circumstances is separate from that factual use being used as an argument today. In order to evaluate the argument, one must first be able to determine the factual-ness (or not) of the evidence used in the argument. Somewhat separately, the "Politics" article appears to be a disambig/branch page to politics/control around the world, and not an overall discussion of the topic(s). I believe both types of content have value, but perhaps the current "Gun Politics" article should be renamed to "Gun Politics around the world", and focusing purely on "current state" in its summaries. (Individual country articles can certainly include the historical states as well) Gaijin42 (talk) 18:33, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Well that's weird, because you've been arguing furiously and at great length for weeks now against such a move, providing all kinds of reasons. We should now disregard all of those reams of argumentation from you and North8000? — goethean 19:01, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I dispute that this is a POV fork. I disagree (but am open to discussions and consensus) that politics and control are by definition the same topic, but that is a different discussion entirely. (if the two topics should be merged (or are if they are or are not the same topic)). Setting the disputed content completely aside, I think there is valuable content in the "high level" content of this article just discussing gun control in general, which is not in the politics article, and I further think that at a minimum "Gun politics" and "gun politics around the world" should be different articles (Which could mean that we just rename this one to "Gun Control and Gun Politics" or some such, and the current politics to "around the world". Gaijin42 (talk) 19:07, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Sure, User:Goethean, let me answer your questions:

Does the 'Nazi disarmament of German Jews' subsection constitute a POV fork of Gun politics in Germany? No.

Is this entire article a POV fork of Gun politics? If not, why does it exist separately from Gun politics? What is the substantive topical difference? No. With the exception of the section about the United States, most of the Gun politics article only lists laws restricting gun ownership. The gun control talks about those laws as a policy.

Should a contentious, partisan version of history (i.e., placing a highly partisan section on Nazi disarmament of the Jews in an article on gun control in order to argue by association against gun control) be in the History section, or the "Opinions" section? There's nothing partisan about it. If you don't want to look like a Nazi, don't espouse policies implemented by Nazis.

Does the section give UNDUE weight to partisan, fringe, unreliable sources? Not at all. I was surprised to find the majority of sources are from academic journals.

Why does this article's history section provide such an obviously misleading, partisan, highly POV version of history (i.e., only Nazi Germany and "Bolshevist Russia" are covered in detail)? How can this violation of the NPOV policy be corrected? I disagree with your characterization. Certainly a wider view of the issue is needed. Fascist and Communist governments are well-known for big-government overreaches like gun control. It's not surprising that Hitler and Stalin are mentioned in that discussion.

In my limited experience, there's going to have to be some compromise to make this article stable. Chris Troutman (talk) 19:13, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

There's nothing partisan about it. If you don't want to look like a Nazi, don't espouse policies implemented by Nazis.

Don't look now, but you are proving my point, which is that this page only treats Nazi and Russian gun laws in order to act as a guilt by association argument, one which you just articulated. — goethean 19:24, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Hardly. My comments are neither syllogism nor ad hominem. Any government that seeks to control gun ownership seeks totalitarian control over a reactionary public. The proponents of gun control can't refute that argument so they claim "guilt by association." Just tell us that you think Hitler got a few things right and the rest of us will enjoy our liberty. Chris Troutman (talk) 20:38, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

So you're saying that the article should include sections on Nazi Germany and Bolshevist Russia, because gun control (no matter where or when) is just like the Nazi disarmament of the Jews. — goethean 20:44, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Generally when you say what what somebody "said" after they just said it, it's something very different than what they actually said. People can read what Chris troutman actually said for themselves, and it's only one post up. North8000 (talk) 21:06, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

There are things called logical inferences and propositions which logically follow from other propositions. People engaged in discussion sometimes ask for clarification about what another person is attempting to communicate. — goethean 21:36, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, some people restate to seek clarification / confirm their understanding by asking if there restatement was correct. Those are generally framed as asking and include a question mark. Others do it in different way to attempt to make the previous speaker or what they said look bad. North8000 (talk) 21:44, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I appreciate your need to prevent User:Chris troutman from saying something which is damaging to your agenda on gun control. — goethean 21:50, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

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