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Yes. Be bold. —No-One Jones  06:27, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

One holy cathloic...

The Phrase "one holy catholic and apostolic church" has been used by scads of Christians, not as a statement of allegiance to a particular church organization, but to the church community (the entire Christian church started by the apostles) so the last line needs to be rephrased but I’m not sure how best to do that. Ideas?

The idea of an "invisible" church (consisting of all Christians everywhere) began with the Donatist controversy, but it has tended to be used mostly by Protestants. RC and Orthodox alike tend to identify "the church" with the institution itself. Hence, the claim to be the "One True Holy Catholic" church. As it stands, the article seems like a fair description. 68.33.140.194 19:22, 17 March 2006 (UTC) (jrcagle)

more here:

Insertion of filioque

The word "non-canonical" before the insertion of the clause seems to be advocating the Eastern side of the schism. I mean, obviously the Catholics do not think that it is non-canonical, right? I might be wrong... Bratsche 20:42, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

the Pope claimed he held authority over the four Eastern patriarchs, while the Patriarch of Constantinople claimed since he was the spiritual leader of "new-Rome" that he was the head of the Christian Church

Is the above right? I thought the claim of the four Eastern patriarchs was that none of the five patriarchs could claim authority over the whole Christian church. Today, the various Eastern Orthodox hierarchies recognize the primacy of the Patriarch of Constantinople as only honorary; he has authority over only one of those hierarchical churches. My understanding has been that that has been the position of the Eastern Orthodox Church ever since the schism of 1054. Michael Hardy 22:48, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I always thought that the Patriarch of Constantinople was not called "ecumenical" until after the Schism. Am I wrong? 66.213.21.15 28 June 2005 19:42 (UTC)

Actually, the Patriarch of Constatinople at the time of the split did indeed make primatial claims, much as the modern Orthodox hate to admit it. He was an aberration, unfortunately it was at the wrong time for it to happen.

The above would seem to contradict the current article which says: "All five Patriarchs of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church agreed that the Patriarch of Rome should receive higher honors than the other four" So which is it? At that time, did the Patriarch of Constantinople accord some degree of primacy to the Roman Patriarch/Pope or did he assert his own primacy (or neither)? Crust 21:13, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

The Patriarch of Constantinople never tried to claim any sort of primacy over the Pope. --Midnite Critic 15:32, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

The Origins' Content

Paragraph two is concluded with the line 'thus the Empire was the first to fall' or something similar; which empire? Byzantine or the Western? Both are mentioned in the preceding sentence. Celtmist 5-11-05

I have replaced the word decimated by destroyed, since to decimate means to destroy 10% of something.Mystery Man 14:29, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Should this article be merged with this one?

I have found this article, and Western Schism, about the same topic. Are there enough differences between the two, or should they be merged? DrJones 12:51, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

They are not at all about the same topic and should not be merged. —Charles P. (Mirv) 20:51, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, no. They're about two entirely different topics. User:ASDamick/sig 12:40, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Mutual recognition

Should there not be something about the Roman and the Eastern Churches recognising the legitimacy of each other's priesthood and sacraments? That is, a Catholic could receive the Eucharist from a Greek Orthodox priest and would regard himself as having received "proper" communion. He would not so regard communion taken from an Anglican. Avalon 11:21, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

The recognition generally only goes in one direction. That is, while an RC might consider it okay to receive at an Orthodox church, no Orthodox priest would be allowed to commune him. And while an RC parish might receive an Orthodox Christian to communion, the act of doing so would automatically excommunicate that person from the Orthodox Church.

The Orthodox Church has not made an official statement regarding the "validity" of RC sacraments, but they are certainly not treated in practice as "proper" to the life of an Orthodox Christian. —A.S. Damick 12:57, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm glad I asked the question because I'm happy to learn the true situation. One lives and learns! Avalon 14:28, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Details

This article contains no details about the actual excommunications and the immediate events surrounding them which occurred in 1054. It's a serious lacking and should be corrected. What about Bishop Leo of Ochrid's letter or Emperor Constantine IX's attitude? There is no mention here or at Leo IX's articel or Cerularius' about the prime human catalyst for the actual excommunications, Humbert of Mourmoutiers. I can add it if necessary, but I would prefer someone more familiar with the topic do it. Srnec 05:30, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

OK, thanks for adding your stuff, but most unfortunately it reeks of Papist propaganda. Your account seems to put the blame for the rift on the Patriarch and whitewash the Pope and his legates. Such phrases as - "just at the time when the patriarch was set to open up a Pandora's box" or "the patriarch's refusal to address the issues at hand drove the legatine mission to extremes" - are judgmental and as such unacceptable. --Ghirla 19:23, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I want to first disavow any connection to either church involved—I'm a Protestant. The tenor of the section almost certainly comes from John Julius Norwich, my only source. He was not a Catholic, as far as I know. His book read impartially to me.

For those reasons, I'll first address the alleged POV-ness of the above citations. The patriarch did open a Pandora's box; fault if you will the pope for refusing to close it, but as far as I can tell, it was the patriarch who initiated the whole affair: which seems to be universally regarded today as a Pandora's box. The patriarch, according to Norwich, basically ignored the legates, which led them to extremes. How is this POV? The legates may or may not have been justified, but what drove them to do what they certainly did not intend to do upon setting out on their mission was the patriarch's basic refusal to receive them as legates. The sentences may seem to blame the patriarch, but I believe if read critically, they are factual statements. What about the statement "legates' authority legally ceased, but they did not seem to notice," how is that less POV than the above statements? Certainly its a legal point of view the legates would probably have debated.

Anyway, I won't dispute that further. If its POV, edit it. But I have been accused recently of having a POV I certainly didn't have (see Talk:Kingdom of Galicia if you care to read that long debate) because someone couldn't read what precisely I wrote. I rarely try and write something other than exacly what I mean and I think (I may be wrong) these statements are ones of fact if read to mean precisely what they say and no more or less. Perhaps, for an encyclopaedia, language must be watered down to accomodate those who can't read (not you, I'm sure), but I think that's sad. Srnec 03:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Factual Error Edit

I made a correction to a factual error. Rome did not condemn intinction. For certain rites it has been forbidden, but not condemned. There is a major difference. Rome has historically approved of it for certain rites. - Diligens 13:27, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

"You can imagine the uproar that ensued"?

this phrase does not seem very encyclopedic... why is it there? (unsigned by User:69.203.98.141 )

As is "and when the smoke cleared". The whole section read a bit oddly. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:14, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Took care of the first bit, and added some detail on the political events during the eventual slide into full schism. Epimetreus 15:50, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

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