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:I understand your rationale. The question here is if this James Hall is notable enough for an entry on Misplaced Pages. I noted his name when I did a search for Jim Hall the notable jazz guitarist, and saw James Hall's description on the disambiguation page (jazz guitarist), which prompted me to look at it to see if it was the jazz guitarist I was looking for. So having an entry for someone can actually create confusion and wasted time. If he is notable enough to justify that small disruption, fine; but if he is not, then let's clear him away and simplify the search. ''']''' ''']''' 15:10, 2 July 2013 (UTC) | :I understand your rationale. The question here is if this James Hall is notable enough for an entry on Misplaced Pages. I noted his name when I did a search for Jim Hall the notable jazz guitarist, and saw James Hall's description on the disambiguation page (jazz guitarist), which prompted me to look at it to see if it was the jazz guitarist I was looking for. So having an entry for someone can actually create confusion and wasted time. If he is notable enough to justify that small disruption, fine; but if he is not, then let's clear him away and simplify the search. ''']''' ''']''' 15:10, 2 July 2013 (UTC) | ||
== FYI == | |||
Hi ST. As a former contributor to ], you may wish to take a look at ]. If you do, please read it carefully in order not to miss the explicit objective. Comments on its talk page. Cheers, ] (]) 01:05, 4 July 2013 (UTC) |
Revision as of 01:05, 4 July 2013
SilkTork
I will listen to you, especially when we disagree. Barack Obama
Parting thoughts on Jmh649 RFAR
This is getting posted on every arb's talk page and I will courtesy notify Doc J. I am appalled at how low the standards of wiki admin behavior have sunk. We've seen admins lose their bit for nothing more than one wheel war and yet here we have multiple instances of involved protections, edit wars, hounding new users, involved blocks, etc, and absolutely nothing gets done about it. Why? So Doc J can "adjust"? What about all his victims? What do they get?--diddly squat, just like in the real world. I actually truly hope Doc J can change, but that is not what wiki history teaches us. Wiki history teaches us he will lay low until the heat dies down then steadily go back to his old ways and he'll be back at RFAR within 6-30 months from now. Just like the arb case from my day when a drafting arb came within a hair of posting sanctions on Willbeback but didn't and what happened? Will kept going on in the same old fashion and two years and countless victims later, Will loses his bit and gets banned. And Doc J gets to use a secret mentor? He'd only not disclose that person if he felt the community would not accept the mentor, such as the mentor wasn't neutral or some such reason. By not taking this case and not issuing any guidelines or admonishments, especially with several extremely weak comments by the arbs (ie, how can some of you see nothing wrong in his behavior) all AC did here was send a clear signal to admins that there are no more admin standards of behavior and admins can do whatever they want and get away with it scott free. This juxtaposed with those who lost their bit for one wheel war also shows there is no consistency at all in AC's rulings on admins. At a minimum AC should have issued a statement on unacceptable behavior rather than turning a blind eye to the RFAR. This is an unacceptable precedent for which the community and AC will pay for many times over in the future. The UN can do a better job of fixing things than wiki and AC can, and that's really sad. This is a classic case of how those committing harmful acts rationalize their behavior and others rationalize excuses on their behalf. See you at "RFAR/Jmh649 2".PumpkinSky talk 22:02, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
- I'd add that we do no one any favours, not Doc nor the community by not summing up and clarifying what the issues are. How can Doc be expected to know what concerns he has to deal with, that the community sees as problems if they are not drawn up clearly. How can an community feel confident that Doc is receiving the kind of mentoring he needs to address those concerns if the concerns aren't clear and the mentor is kept secret. There are things a community doesn't need to know; this isn't one of them. I've been teaching for a long time. Teachers have problems when expectations aren't clear, and when they sidestep red flags in behaviour until something becomes too big to handle easily. At the least, the arbs should have used this RfArb as an opportunity to create further signposts/ guides for Doc, all admins and the community. No disrespect is meant to the arbs, or to Silk Tork whom I consider to be a fine arbitrator.(olive (talk) 22:44, 27 June 2013 (UTC))
- There will be differences of opinion on how to handle a situation, and it is important to air one's views and opinions, so thank you both for sharing this. My take is that ArbCom is not the only way to resolve problems - and this is a view I feel is shared by most members of the current Committee. Misplaced Pages, and the community, are evolving - and we are moving in the right direction. Dispute resolution and problem solving has moved away from one man, to an elected body, and is gradually being handled more and more by the community itself. This is an important development. The power to resolve matters does not lie purely in the hands of the elected body. Increasingly it lies in the hands of the community as a whole. This empowers the community, and means we can all manage and handle matters, and things move more effectively. Hopefully as we develop further we can get to the point where all disputes can be handled by the community - though there may always remain a need to keep a body for dealing with those situations that the community really, really cannot resolve. As for this situation: the individuals that make up the Committee felt that the matter hadn't yet reached the stage where the community really, really couldn't resolve it. It wasn't a group think. It was several individuals. And I think all of those individuals fully accept that with a different set of individuals there could have been a different result. ArbCom is not always wise. That is not its role (though, of course, the community attempts to select what it feels are the wisest of those who put themselves forward for election). ArbCom is merely final and binding. Right or wrong. And then we move on. SilkTork 08:19, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you for responding SilkTork. On rereading my post to day it sounds pretty aggressive which was not my intent. I apologize for that. I also was not clear on what I was trying to say so I'll try and reword.
- An arb request seems to me to have three aspects: the request, the arb response and the conclusion. My concern was not with the arb response but with the conclusion-what we do with that response. The system we have, as far as I know (and my comment was not a criticism of the arbs but the system), is to close the request either as an acceptance or not acceptance. A simple close works if the arbs don't have much to say. The arbs in the JMH649 case despite the fact that they were declining to accept had lots to say. What I would like to see is a summary of what the arbs say in a declined case, perhaps a summary created by a clerk, then a close. Establishing what the arb concerns are helps establishes expectation. Being aware of what is expected helps ensure success.
- As for community solutions: I don' think we have a system in place that is beyond RfC'S,(which don't work very well, too prone to the creation of mud), AEs which can be gamed beyond imagining, and arbitration. Single admin actions on AE that can only be undone by three editors does not work very well for editors trying to defend themselves from unilateral actions. There's a step in DR that's missing there somewhere. An Rfc/U might work better if patrolled and if the close and conclusions were dealt with by three editors rather than one. Anyway, just some clarification, thoughts, and thanks for your gracious talk page atmosphere.(olive (talk) 22:32, 28 June 2013 (UTC))
- I think there are some interesting suggestions there. While on the whole I feel very positive about the progress that the community are making, there is one development that causes me some regret, and that is that suggestions for change are much harder to implement these days. But that is, I suppose, a by-product of the growth in size of the community. When the community was small enough that everyone knew and trusted each other, and the vandals and problematic users had not joined, then changes could be implemented in an atmosphere of trust. The community are more suspicious and cautious these days. Added to which, when something has been in place for a while, institutionalism creeps in, and there is a strong inclination toward the status quo. However, you could raise your suggestions in the appropriate venues, and see what happens.
- On the matter regarding the views expressed by the Committee during requests. I return you to my comments on the wisdom of the members of the Committee. Our role is not to be the wise elders of the community that people seek out for advice. Our role is purely to be final and binding. It is hoped and expected that we will make our decisions with care and consideration. But that our every utterance should be enshrined as examples of good conduct would be inappropriate. It should be again stressed that ArbCom is a group of individuals, and that utterances will vary depending on who is available, so what we say is less important than the consensus on a final decision. In this case the message sent was that the community can and should deal with this matter, and that is all that needs to be understood. My personal opinion on the matter should carry no more (nor less) weight than yours or PumpkinSky's. SilkTork 07:48, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
- I agree for the most part with what you're saying. I have no problem with the committee's position on anything not because I personally agree or disagree, but because it comes out of consensus. I don't support punitive, as both parent and teacher, I don't see it brings the best out of anyone, so helping an editor get back on track if possible is best. For that reason if an arb as that final say on behaviour sees an issue that may bring an editor back to the committee, then the arbs' opinions as arbs, rather than citizens of the community might be worth clarifying. Anyway, thanks for the chat and I'll push off assuming you have lots more to do with your time. Best wishes.(olive (talk) 14:42, 29 June 2013 (UTC))
ready to go
I found the latest attempt to force through "immediate actioning" on basically the same proposal over and over to be troubling, and I am tired of pointing out that WP:RS/N does not use Amazon blurbs about a person to "prove" Foley's essay meets RS when no one there says it does. I have sought assiduously and repeatedly to suggest compromise wording consistent with normal editing practices, Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, and find the current state of discussion to verge on tendentiousness, hence am strongly considering leaving the fray to wall-of-text-users. Sigh. Collect (talk) 07:06, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
- I appreciate your efforts in this matter Collect. And I fully understand your frustrations. When I read your section title I had hoped it was to tell me that you thought we were ready to action the Agenda edit, and to move on to the next stage. My impression was that collaboration and focus on task were happening, so I am disappointed at what you tell me, but I am not entirely surprised. SilkTork 07:50, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
- I have called for a preference indicator on those versions that have been offered. I will identify the one most preferred, and then we can have a discussion on that version, looking at and overcoming reasonable wording objections. SilkTork 14:40, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
- SilkTork, it's not what you think. It's really "haven't seen a viable version lately". Also the page and number of lengty possibilities has become too huge and confused for anybody except a few stalwarts to understand/review. As an indicator, look at Xenophrenic's talk page. Three of us have been trying to coax Xenophrenic to draft a version. Where three people see the best way to move forward as reaching across the aisle in a "request for a draft". North8000 (talk) 15:04, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
- Could you help me here? Could you select the two versions (or even just one) that you least dislike. That will give us one version to discuss, and we can move forward from there. I understand if you don't wish to, and I appreciate you raising your objection here, rather than on the discussion page. SilkTork 15:10, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
- Happy to. I listed a preferred version. Also proposed a way to (hopefully) a quick 1/2 step forward. If you feel it is out of process, I'd strike it. North8000 (talk) 16:17, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
- Could you help me here? Could you select the two versions (or even just one) that you least dislike. That will give us one version to discuss, and we can move forward from there. I understand if you don't wish to, and I appreciate you raising your objection here, rather than on the discussion page. SilkTork 15:10, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
It looks like I've missed some fun during my brief absence. I appreciate the requests for input left on my Talk page. I wouldn't exactly characterize my perspective as "across the aisle" from Malke, TE and North8000; you'll recall my last major editing and additions to the Agenda section (as seen in this version) were promptly reverted by Snowded, Furious Style, and Ubikwit, while Arzel and Arthur Rubin reinstated my edits. In response to comments left on my Talk page, I'll submit an Agenda section this evening. While it will be significantly different than both Malke's and Ubikwit's latest efforts, I think it will collaboratively incorporate the major information points from each, while also addressing some recently raised valid criticisms. My proposal shouldn't run afoul of SilkTork's request to focus on collaborative efforts instead of new, competing proposals. Xenophrenic (talk) 21:24, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
- OK, it was really "across the perceived-by-some aisle". :-) North8000 (talk) 21:40, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
- It may be a lost cause already at this late hour, but as Xenophrenic has not come through with the promised suggested text, and seeing that the deadline is going to be in hte rear-view mirror in less than a day, perhaps the problematic wording in the thus far favored version should be taken up? Is there time to salvage anything out of the prolonged Agenda section discussion? --Ubikwit見学/迷惑 08:16, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
- I'm really sorry about that, Ubikwit. The last thing I did before leaving on a road trip yesterday was save an initial draft of my proposed edits -- or so I had thought. I didn't realize until I got back tonight that the save didn't go through, and that was after you guys had made numerous additional adjustments to the most favored versions. (And started doing "readability" testing?) Oh well; Misplaced Pages articles are forever "works in progress" and are never really "done". Xenophrenic (talk) 09:44, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
- It may be a lost cause already at this late hour, but as Xenophrenic has not come through with the promised suggested text, and seeing that the deadline is going to be in hte rear-view mirror in less than a day, perhaps the problematic wording in the thus far favored version should be taken up? Is there time to salvage anything out of the prolonged Agenda section discussion? --Ubikwit見学/迷惑 08:16, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
Another party heard from at Tea Party movement
Could you check http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Tea_Party_movement&diff=562037232&oldid=562018816 and comment to Plumber (talk · contribs) if you think appropriate. I think this is a major edit, partially agreed against, and made now for the second time. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 03:14, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
- I have removed the material and left a warning for the user. It would have been merely advisory if the user had only entered the material once, but doing it a second time was clearly inappropriate. If the user does it again without getting consensus first, let me know and I will block. SilkTork 08:03, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
my history of readability concerns
See Joseph Widney now with a lead having a grade score of 13 and readability of 30. Then look at just before my first edit there. Grade score or 25 and readability of minus 13. I got it up to GA status this year. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:38, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
- While basically in agreement that readability has it's place--though that is not defined in policy--I think I have demonstrated, by achieving F/K index to 16/16 with respect to text questioned because of poor readability, that readability is a concern that is secondary to content and can be improved by copyediting text after the various POVs found in reliably published sources have been cobbled together in a coherent presentation.
- More specifically, I could easily improve the readability of the text suggested by Xenophrenic, which reflects the various POVs as found in RS in a fairly comprehensive manner.
- Prioritizing readability over content (vis-a-vis WP:RS) would seem like putting the cart before the horse.--Ubikwit見学/迷惑 14:41, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
Footnotes and cites can easily handle the "details" some are fond of - I would note The results of this study show that the readability of the English Misplaced Pages is overall well below a desired standard. Although the average score of 51.18 does not seem far from the desired goal, nearly 75 percent of all articles scored below 60 in the Flesch reading ease test. Moreover, half of the articles can be classified as difficult or worse. This finding confirms our hypothesis that numerous articles on Misplaced Pages are too difficult to read for many people. from which appears to be a reliable source on Misplaced Pages readability problems is spot on. Collect (talk) 14:52, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
- It seems common sense to me that collaborative article development should follow a simple procedure:
- 1) Determine what information needs to be conveyed (reliable sources)
- 2) Determine how best to present that information (neutral point of view)
- 3) Copy edit agreed-upon text for readability, clarity, grammar, spelling and other non-contentious improvements
- Xenophrenic (talk) 18:02, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
- Detailed quotes and the like are generally placed in "footnotes" in the real world. I have cited a study about Misplaced Pages where it states that 75% of the articles fail a reasonable standard for readability. If we are here to conduct exercises in massive unreadable and illiterate walls of text, then your position has its place. If we are here to create encyclopedia articles which are actually (God forbid!) useful, then we can and ought to work at that goal from the start. If this means editors lose their favourite quotes and tidbits, sobeit. Defending a readability index of 16 or less is, IMO, absurd. We have the choice between the two versions of "Joseph Widney" I have presented - it appears too many here would have preferred the original version, and that is their choice, and relished its specificity. Cheers. Collect (talk) 20:56, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a news media outlet subject to the laws of the advertising and PR industries.
- The obsession with readability indexes and the like seems to me a distraction from actual content issues.
- And I long, alas, for an end to the use of the Queen's English harkening back to a golden age of yore in these discussions. Personally, I consider such parlance to be somewhat disruptive.
- I should further point out that I don't think we need references to "God" here with respect to editing practices, either.--Ubikwit見学/迷惑 10:20, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
- If we are here to conduct exercises in massive unreadable and illiterate walls of text, then your position has its place. --Collect
- What a wonderful thing to say to another editor.
- That is opposite to my position stated above. See point 3, where my position says we "Copy edit agreed-upon text for readability, clarity, grammar, spelling and other non-contentious improvements". Xenophrenic (talk) 15:04, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
Page disruption
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Ubikwit and Xenophrenic are displacing editor's comments after they've been replied to by others. This makes it difficult to follow the comments. Also Ubikwits comments to me are again crossing the line. They are hostile and aggressive, not at all collegial. Xenophrenic is also parsing my comments. I've removed one of my comments until the situation is addressed. Thanks. Malke 2010 (talk) 17:37, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
--Ubikwit見学/迷惑 19:03, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps the related thread can help you, Ubikwit, help me understand your issue. Because I'm not seeing the misrepresentation or your statements: †TE†Talk 19:49, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
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Forced actioning of edit to Agenda section
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Silk Tork, I reverted the actioning of edits to the Agenda section by P&W, which were made even after I posted this, including a diff specifically to your last edit describing the proposed procedure for working on a text for the Agenda section. It's devolved in a sort of mob-rule scenario on the moderated discussion page, and I for one would hope that the Committee acts swiftly to restore order in the environment for editing this article.--Ubikwit見学/迷惑 05:19, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
I've asked for clarification on the discussion page. SilkTork 08:00, 2 July 2013 (UTC) See discussion there. Per details there I think that what P&W did was reasonable. It had a 4:1consensus before the non-participating drive-by's came by. If it doesn't stick. fine, but it was badly needed attempt at a move forward, and we need a more forward. North8000 (talk) 11:40, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
The edit was clearly taken with a reasonable belief that consensus existed, but clearly also allowed for further tweaking of that edit on the moderated discussion page - so not really something to seek punishment for, IMO. Collect (talk) 13:19, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
FWIW, Ubikwit was the first to raise the "readability" issue back on 25 June - or well before my quantitive analysis of the actual versions proposed on 28 June. Just to be clear here. Collect (talk) 15:40, 2 July 2013 (UTC) Ubiktwit, why are you so focused on getting editors in trouble? Why do you use such accusatory and hostile language all the time? And why do you take such offense when your edits are reverted or nobody likes your version of something? Maybe you should go back and read the reams of text you've posted, the way you comment to others. And Version 13? You can't even tell us what the blockquotes mean other than to offer this reply: . You make several false claims here. You claim that editors going to Xenophrenics page to ask him for his version, which obviously we're all waiting for, "effectively suspended the process." It did no such thing. On the contrary, we were trying to move things forward and it did. Xenophrenic came through with his version. Isn't it really that you resented us ignoring your 'Version 13?' And you claim you're here trying to get P&W topic banned because you've decided that "an enormous amount of time has been spent counterproductively?" Where in the rules does it say you get to dimiss the efforts of others? You know what the blockquotes really mean? They mean WP:NOTHERE. Malke 2010 (talk) 15:40, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
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The ArbCom case has re-opened. The moderated discussion has not achieved what I hoped it would, and I apologise to everyone for my part in that failure. I will be away from home all next week with uncertain internet access, so I am withdrawing from the discussion as of now. As the case has reopened and the discussion has not been a success, it is highly likely that some people are going to be topic banned, and that a number of those involved in the discussion are going to be among those who are topic banned. As such it is uncertain what the best course of action would be in regards to the discussion: if a new moderator should be sought, or if it should be closed down completely. It may be best to await the outcome of the case before making any firm decisions. SilkTork 22:25, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- SilkTork, thank you for the excellent job that you have done. The challenge is due to the policy weaknesses that leave all contentious articles articles in this state. The article was chugging along in such a sad routine state when someone asked someone to light a bonfire, and they listened, including pouring gasoline on it. So there are 2 people to blame for the bonfire (who have evaded scrutiny) and nobody to really blame for the article state. We'll see if Arbcom figures that out. North8000 (talk) 00:39, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
James A. Hall
Jim's bio serves several purposes. James A. Hall, as jazz guitarist, who goes by "Jim Hall," commonly gets confused with the more famous jazz guitarist Jim Hall (musician), ad naseum. Developing a bio to clarify common confusion between between notable person and a superstar is worthy. Misplaced Pages serves an important role in distinguishing Ray Brown, the bassist, from Ray Brown the jazz trumpeter (with Stan Kenton), from Ray Brown, the blues guy, from Ray Brown the trumpter with Earth, Wind and Fire. Granted, all are notable. But, Hall, as an influential music educator — at the university level — makes a strong candidate. As a jazz percussionist, Jim is notable. In Tom Lord's Jazz Discography, there are 5 Jim Halls, 1 Jimmy Hall, and and 6 John Halls. Feel free to delete this when done (I copied this on Hall's page and at the deletion log site. For what it's worth, I do not have strong feelings either way. But you should know that I created the page because I myself was confused and thought that publishing knowledge that I gained might be useful to musicologist and others, particularly as years slip away. — Eurodog (talk) 14:20, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
- I understand your rationale. The question here is if this James Hall is notable enough for an entry on Misplaced Pages. I noted his name when I did a search for Jim Hall the notable jazz guitarist, and saw James Hall's description on the disambiguation page (jazz guitarist), which prompted me to look at it to see if it was the jazz guitarist I was looking for. So having an entry for someone can actually create confusion and wasted time. If he is notable enough to justify that small disruption, fine; but if he is not, then let's clear him away and simplify the search. SilkTork 15:10, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
FYI
Hi ST. As a former contributor to this, you may wish to take a look at this. If you do, please read it carefully in order not to miss the explicit objective. Comments on its talk page. Cheers, Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:05, 4 July 2013 (UTC)