Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 23:51, 7 July 2013

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wonkiness for AFC submitters

First let me say that i am a great fan of AFC and of the persons who are contributing reviewers and other participants here. I am an experienced Misplaced Pages editor yet a direct user of AFC services for some articles that I create. I appreciate recent efforts here that I have observed about improving the wizard system for creation of new articles. As a user, however, I notice that currently, the AFC system is a bit wonky, and must seem even a bit crazy to new users, in a few ways that undermine its success.

Specifically:

1) A user has to deal with cognitive dissonance about contradictory messages in the wizard system, in order to get to the end of the wizard. The wizard repeatedly asks questions that can't be answered. E.g. "Does your proposed article have good sources?" and "Does your article submission meet the content requirements?" Well, you haven't let me write an article yet, so how could it do that? Hmm, maybe the designers of this wizard want me to understand that as meaning "Will the article you intend to write meet the content requirements?" (I personally think that is what you the designers mean.) Or, hmm, maybe this means I have to write out my article in a Word document on my PC, before I submit anything? Why did they bring me along this far, I dunno if I ever want to deal with this stupid Misplaced Pages... (Yikes, I personally think this is not what you designers want, and the PC version that a user goes off to draft is very much less likely to ever get finished or submitted. It would be much better to bring the user forward to the editing window in wikipedia.) These cause doubts and the only way forward is to suspend your disbelief about what the wizard wants. That is raising unnecessary hurdles that could be avoided by some rewriting.

2) When the new user finally gets to the article creation page, Misplaced Pages:Article wizard/Ready for submission, they get to submit their new article draft. Now (i think this recently changed), when they do, it is not actually "submitted", it is merely started by them as a draft that will not be looked at by anyone. The article that they draft, possibly contrary to their expectations of what will happen, gets a big banner "Article not currently submitted for review....This is a draft Articles for creation submission. It is not currently pending review. There is no deadline, you can take your time writing this draft." Note, the name of the page they started the draft from is named "Ready for submission". Many users will have thought they already submitted. I see the detail within "Ready for submission" page is pretty clear that this is just a draft, but those instructions contradict the name of the page, and I think some users are disappointed. The new system just gets them to a drafting point, and actually acts as if whatever they submit is NOT ready for submission. I think the language in page-naming and instructions needs to be reworked, perhaps in terms of "ready to draft" perhaps rather than "ready to submit".

3) Truly bizarre for me is the experience of what happens when you do "submit". You click on the nice green button "Submit your draft when you are ready for it to be reviewed!", and oddly, the page is blanked and you are instructed to ignore that reality but click "Save" anyhow. Okay, i do that (and hope that I will be rewarded with a confirming message that I did the right thing). And... what I get is a restored page, with prominent banner: Article not currently submitted for review. WTF!!! Oh, at the very bottom, probably out of view, there is another banner, with "Review waiting". Even if I see that, i don't know which to believe. Hmm, maybe this whole Wizard system is completely broken. Hmm, will I ever get a "review"? Hmm, should I wait for weeks now, when it appears obvious that my submission was not properly received (that is in fact what the designers want, i personally think). This is putting further unnecessary bewilderment onto the user. The wizard system absolutely must be changed, IMHO, to take out or revise the "This has not been submitted" message for articles that have been submitted. And probably the latest banner should be put in on top, above any others, and should perhaps statement that this message overrides any previous, lower banners.

4) This is a lesser point. The new user who arrives at wp:AFC may find their way to the article wizard. It's good, but is a longish sequence to go through, and after a few times they would probably like a shortcut to an article starting point further in. I've had trouble finding what entry point to bookmark for my own use. Maybe for users who are repeatedly creating articles of a similar type, with similar sources, etc., there could be a named shortcut that they could be advised that they could use, or a specific suggested page that could be identified as the one they should usefully bookmark? Probably that is Misplaced Pages:Article wizard/Ready for submission, i.e. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Article_wizard/Ready_for_submission? It could be mentioned at the bottom of that short page, that this is a good page to bookmark and start from, if you've arrived here several times already. Otherwise for new users I expect it is unclear whether the entire wizard must be gone through each time. Who knows how these computer software things work? Is this a temporary page that cannot be bookmarked? (I personally believe that http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Article_wizard/Ready_for_submission is a hard url that can be bookmarked, but that is not obvious. And, again, its name is a misnomer--it is not a page for "ready for submission"--it is, rather, a page for "ready to draft".)

I hope these comments are helpful.  :) Again, I really like what you're all doing here, and that is why I take the time to try to give helpful feedback. Sincerely, --doncram 17:19, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Your comments are certainly helpful. Most of these things have been brought up before and will gradually be improved, but it's good to see a sequential list of them all in one spot. Often the people who are making the templates and scripts are not the ones who use them, and what may seem like an improvement in one step may have unexpected effects the next. —Anne Delong (talk) 19:45, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Doncram. I have been mulling around here for awhile and have noticed many of the same things. I actually started trying to put together a "task force" of sorts about a week or two ago to go through and create an "Article creation wizard 3.0" which will be much more intuitive for the end use and improve the submitters' chances of getting their article approved the first or second time instead of deleted as copyright violation or declined multiple times for being un-sourced or lacking reliable sources. I expect this project of mine to take a few months, and would love to have an editor such as yourself try it out when it is nearing completion as an alpha-tester if you are interested. Technical 13 (talk) 20:56, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

See the thread above at Imbalance between NPP and AfC processes, it directly addresses the Article Wizard but you'll need to follow the various links, and it might save you some work - in the assumption that the Foundation will someday keep their promise. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:48, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

I saw that. One thing at a time though. I want to try and get AfC a little more streamlined and less confusing. After that, I'll work on the Teahouse some more. I also want to improve TAFI and RA some as well. I'd be happy to contribute to NPP simplification as well, but one step at a time. Technical 13 (talk) 12:53, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

I was indeed trying to give a fresh "outside"-type view of the current AFC process, as feedback for fine-tuning purposes, and I am again aware of good efforts mentioned here to improve the process. I am sure there are good reasons for why/how the system has been changed to where it is now (such as limitations of the templating and "subst" programming technology), and surely when some priorities are addressed other small issues may be created. It would be impossible to satisfy all the explicit or implicit goals--some are mutually exclusive--like keeping the system in plain simple English and simultaneously addressing all likely possibilities for user confusion. I'd be happy to try to give a new fresh view upon request to my Talk page at any later time. Cheers, --doncram 16:14, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

AfC School

Has anyone ever thought of doing anything on these lines? Perhaps the two could be combined. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:03, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Theonesean (talk · contribs) is working on a mentoring program in their userspace, but I'm not sure how near to completion it is. A combined school would be a sensible efficiency measure and a good example of cross-project cooperation. Pol430 talk to me 09:24, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

I am working steadily on it. I've got it all planned out. I will need some volunteers to write sample articles, but I should be done in the near future. My time (and all of yours, I'm sure) will be preoccupied with the backlog elimination drive during July, but that will still leave me time to work on the program. The first section is in the final stages, and I'll be asking for help proofreading, copyediting, and testing in a few days. Thanks, TheOneSean 10:16, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Old comment broken by script

I submitted a second comment and reloaded the page; the script broke the previous comment as such: Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/Leaf guard. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 17:23, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

@Mabdul and Nathan2055: Could you guys look into this? I'd look myself and have a feeling it is something stupid simple, but my daughter had a medical emergency come up the other-day so I've no time for the next week or so for much of anything that doesn't directly relax me (which isn't much right now). Technical 13 (talk) 18:00, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

  Not a bug, see the edit before yours: User:MatthewVanitas added a comment without using a script and with a wrong "format".

Instead of

{{afc comment}} A good start, but removing "Installation" per ].

it should be

{{afc comment|1= A good start, but removing "Installation" per ].}}

Regards, mabdul 18:32, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

PS: That kind of pings are very good; I'm very busy and tired at the moment ... sadly!

@Mabdul: There are a lot of such templates that are used like that (when not using a script that correctly formats it for the user), is there anyway that the script could look for the eol instead of the closing }} and fix improperly formatted such comments? Technical 13 (talk) 18:36, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

mmh, Of course we could add another check for an empty afc comment template and add the rest of the line into the template... but what happens for following variants

{{afc comment}}
  A good start, but removing "Installation" per ].

or

{{afc comment}}
 A good start, but removing "Installation" per ]. Starting a list:
 * la
 *li
 *lo 
 Signature (or not)

? How should I detect that? I believe a better education how to use such templates is better with less false positives... mabdul 18:44, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

• @Mabdul: I understand where you are coming from. A majority of them would be caught and fixed using EOL instead of }} for the end. We could modify {{{1}}} to be more like {{{1|There is no comment here! Please use this template correctly!}}} so that the template fails to work if they don't use the proper format. Just ideas... Technical 13 (talk) 19:00, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

• Tracked at https://github.com/WPAFC/afch/issues/20 mabdul 22:21, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Connecting to the the backlog drive

When I select the "Backlog drives" tab at the top of this page it has instructions on how to take part in the drive. It says to go to the relevant backup drive page, but no where that I can find on the page does it say how to find this page except a barely noticeable link in the green invitation template at the bottom of the page. Is this an oversight, or is the drive by invitation only? —Anne Delong (talk) 21:24, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Backup drive? Or Backlog drive Anne? :-p At the top of the page is an info box with a link to the next drive (which will soon become the current drive). Drives are certainly not by invitation only, all qualified editors are welcome and encouraged to take part. Pol430 talk to me 08:55, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

I've added a section with an obvious link as well. Pol430 talk to me 09:01, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Sorry - I've been having a lot of trouble with my backup drive lately..... yes, I meant backlog drive. —Anne Delong (talk) 14:38, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, guys, I didn't want to be trying to reduce the backLOG alone; I see several more people have signed up now. —Anne Delong (talk) 14:44, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Can we please see an example of what the "#" text looks like with actual content, or else explain in detail what "URL_TO_DIFF" is required and the exact format required for "name_of_submission"? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 16:46, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

I am pretty sure that if you sign up for the "AFC Buddy" you don't have to put in the "URL_TO_DIFF"s. It will do it for you. —Anne Delong (talk) 23:10, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

@Dodger67: you'd do it something like this - , producing CCI Channel Management Solutions. Mdann52 (talk) 08:23, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Mdann52, the example is a lot easier to grok than the "template". Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 09:03, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

BTW do we get more Brownie points for an accept, which takes several minutes to complete, compared to a decline that can be done and dusted in just a few seconds? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 10:33, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Redirected submission

Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/CCI Channel Management Solutions is redirected to User:Articles for creation/CCI Channel Management Solutions instead of the other way around (no, it wasn't me this time!) How can that be fixed up so that the article to be reviewed is in Afc space? —Anne Delong (talk) 01:13, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Since there was no relevant history at the redirect, I simply moved the draft back into the Misplaced Pages talk namespace. Huon (talk) 01:22, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Reviewing a disambiguation page

Dear editors:

I came across this unusual article Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/thoughtform thought-form ThoughtForms (disambiguation). I was going to decline it as non-notable, since none of the variations of "thoughtform" have an article in Misplaced Pages, but the editor has gone to some trouble to find references for some of the uses. I am presuming that the list of possible spellings is not needed, but what about the rest? —Anne Delong (talk) 14:50, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

A disambig page should serve to to disambiguate variations of the same page title. This is certainly not a standard example of that and I question its usefulness. It looks like something that would be more at home in Wiktionary. Pol430 talk to me 15:25, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I agree - but what decline reason should I use? There doesn't seem to be one designed for disambiguation pages. Is "non-notable" suitable? Or how about "not written in an encyclopedia tone?" Neither of these is quite right. We need a decline reason that says "not appropriate for a disambiguation page" or something. —Anne Delong (talk) 15:46, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I came across a similar article: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation/Wildflower_magazine Jguy _Talk 16:05, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I've declined the "original" one using the custom decline 'hack' I've come across. Mdann52 (talk) 16:09, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. It would be nice to use the script, though, so perhaps in the future there will be a decline reason for disambiguation pages. —Anne Delong (talk) 17:36, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

If you want to give an "off the menu" decline reason simply write in the comment box, if you have not seleceted one of the menu options the comment is posted as the decline reason instead. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 06:41, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

COI submissions page similar to AfC

I was up until about 3 a.m. whipping up an AfC-like submission page for COIs to request corrections, contest unsourced material and (after reading some disclosures) offer content for consideration. It comes to mind that I've seen posts several years old where editors have pondered why this doesn't already exist and it seems like a no-brainer.

It needs some coding work before the forms would actually "work" but I would be interested in (a) anyone who can help code the forms and (b) any thoughts generally. Most of the templates and coding I used so far has been copy/pasted from AfC. CorporateM (Talk) 16:32, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Good work on trying to centralize this process. I'm not really sure it fits into WikiProject AfC, though I could be wrong. Some suggestions:

1. The disclaimers here should include one about WP:OWN.
2. The reviewing instructions should really only instruct reviewers and the guidance for submitter would be better built into a preload edit-intro template.
3. Your request preload could do with simplifying. Pol430 talk to me 20:50, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I just took out the submission instructions, since this is already handled by the wizard, and added the OWN disclaimer. Probably not relevant to AfC, except that it has a very similar process/templates/code etc. Considering some negative feedback already and the relative ghost town of Request Edit anyway, I'll keep it around and see if it gets interest. I can't really complete it on my own anyway. But if this template is applied more broadly, it might help to have a system like this in place. CorporateM (Talk) 23:04, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I was worried that there might be a rather negative reaction to this idea, but didn't want to discourage your efforts. Personally, I think trying to educate COI contributers is a better option than ignoring them. If education fails, and COI editing crosses the line into tendentious spamming, blocks generally succeed. Sadly, there is a lack of editors who are willing to (try to) work with COI contributers. Pol430 talk to me 22:49, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Can't seem to accept article

An editor told me that I wrongly declined Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/Alexandra Luke for the reason that it already exists. I declined it because the review tool said that it already exists. Now I see that it is just a redirect and I keep on getting an error each time that I try to approve it. SL93 (talk) 21:09, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I had to delete Alexandra Luke for the automated process to work. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:59, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

@SL93: - No worries, it should be fixed in this update. --Nathan2055 14:26, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

The disambiguation page has come back

The Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/thoughtform thought-form ThoughtForms (disambiguation) page, declined by Mdann52 has been resubmitted, with only two entries this time, so I decided to look a little further. The author of the page has included two links. One is to the Thought page, which he has recently updated and to which he has added his own theory of thought with a reference to the book he has written about it. Now, is this what is meant by spam? —Anne Delong (talk) 21:16, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

It is not quite spam, which is indiscriminate bulk adding of links or promotion, but you can still decline it as promotion if that is what it is, or just use the "not" reason, (WP:NOT), and you can usually decline based on lack of verifyability for fringe theory. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:31, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I decline it and left a message about conflict of interest and the need for independent sources. —Anne Delong (talk) 00:39, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Question about the scope of AfCBuddy

I signed up for AfC Buddy on the user subpage of Excirial (talk · contribs). Just wondering, will it (in addition to tracking the diffs of submissions, many thanks) also generate the running totals? TheOneSean 22:27, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

In it current form AFCBuddy generated all three sections used on the backlog drive page (Have a look at The march drive for an example.) The sections it generates are:

• The Leaderboard
• The Totals list
• The individual user overview of diffs for each revision.

It will also try to move any reviews another user reviewed to the "Checked reviews" section though that code is a bit wonky at times (Works fine if added as described in the "Reviewing Reviews" section, but any variations might cause it to stumble). Excirial 22:55, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, you're wonderful! TheOneSean 23:01, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, thank you! --j⚛e decker 17:46, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Neologism?

This article, called Cultural Culinary Diplomacy, defines and outlines a new kind of diplomacy via food. It's a reasonably well written article, but I can't help but question the premise as a neologism. It doesn't seem to be created in an "attempt to use Misplaced Pages to increase usage of the term" (WP:NEO), but I'm reluctant to accept it because of the non-prevalence of the term. Any second opinions? Thanks, theonesean 02:53, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

P.S: The AfC Mentoring program is well under development. I will be posting requests for help after the backlog drive is over. Thanks.

The term is "Cullinary diplomacy", not "Cultural diplomacy" - the sources cited in the draft are good high quality sources, IMHO there is no problem here. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:32, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree. Regardless of what terms are used to describe it, this article is about a well-documented and notable phenomenon as opposed to a simple dicdef article about a neologism, . It's well written and referenced to high quality sources and should be moved into mainspace. Voceditenore (talk) 08:25, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for creation/Rowe v Emmanuel College

Note to potential reviewers of this page. I have blanked it per WP:SOAP. Please see Talk:Emmanuel College (Queensland)#Edit warring re litigation and Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive800#Emmanuel College (Queensland) for background. Voceditenore (talk) 07:24, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Submissions about "life coaches", management gurus, books about management techniques

Next time one is reviewing, or discussing, an article submission about a "life coach" or a management guru or a book about management techniques, or any similar topic, it may be useful to have this in mind: http://www.dilbert.com/2013-06-30/ Arthur goes shopping (talk) 10:08, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the LOLs! Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 11:44, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Are you suggesting we need Category:Articles related to topics lampooned by Scott Adams??? :) davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 01:11, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Categories

The visual editor was rolled out for my account yesterday, and I've noticed I can't use HotCat any longer. Is this a known issue? FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 15:40, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

It's a separate issue not related to VE. Hotcat was made on by default for all users after a hopelessly inadequately discussed proposal and that caused major problems so it was turned off. Unfortunately deactivating the on-by-default did not recognize those who turned it on by choice so it got turned of for everyone. See WP:VPP#WP:HOTCAT on as a default. You need to switch it back on in your Preferences > Gadgets menu. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 16:00, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Oh, what a mess. Thanks for the update! FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 19:23, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

This happened to me, too, but it only took a moment to get it working again. —Anne Delong (talk) 21:22, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Duplicate article

Dear editors: The following submission Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/Mohanpur, Punjab, India has been declined and resubmitted without much in the way of sources. I started to improve it, but soon realized that there is already a similar article in the encyclopedia at Mohanpur, Punjab. This second one has not been edited since the cut-and-paste was made. Which article should be improved? What should be done with the other one? —Anne Delong (talk) 17:13, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Personally, I would decline it as 'exists' and ask the author to work on the main space submission. Both articles are broadly similar. Pol430 talk to me 21:25, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Additionally, it is not necessary for geographic locations to establish their notability, only that they have received governmental recognition of their existence. Pol430 talk to me 21:27, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

The issue isn't notability. The issue is not being referenced. SL93 (talk) 21:33, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, and I'm not sure where to find the evidence of government recognition in India. There's a postal code, but that's a bit lame. I'll add it to the main space article and decline the other. —Anne Delong (talk) 22:38, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

IMHO a postal code, a named dot on an official map, existence of a government school, clinic, or evidence of municipal level elections/structures is all acceptable evidence of existence, not lame at all. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:13, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, a postal code is a fairly certain source for governmental recognition proving it verifies the existence of the subject under its own terms of reference (rather than lumping together, as merely part of a nearby place that is larger). Pol430 talk to me 18:28, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes one must verify whether the postal code is assigned to a region, suburb, town, district or village. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:02, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Notability of a town

Dear editors: I have been told several times that towns are considered notable as long as there is evidence that they are actual towns. However, I'm having difficulty in finding this in the notability guidelines. In fact, I found this: "No subject is automatically or inherently notable merely because it exists." Can someone point me to the correct info page? Thanks. —Anne Delong (talk) 02:54, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:GEOLAND? Kilopi (talk) 03:12, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, that's what I needed. However, I notice that this page is absent from the category of notability guidelines. It seems that it is an essay rather than policy, and that there hasn't been a consensus about exactly what's needed to make a town notable. —Anne Delong (talk) 17:11, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, you may also want to check out WP:NPLACE, which is more or less the derived wisdom of AfD results as part of WP:OUTCOMES. Certainly not as binding as a policy or guideline, but a pretty good indication of how a case will usually go at AfD, so I give it significantly higher weight than a random essay.. --j⚛e decker 17:47, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Revamp of Article Wizard

So, I have quite a few ideas for how to revamp the Article Wizard, and I'm testing them on the labs cluster here (NOT SUL enabled with enwp).

If anyone wants to help, I'd love it if some people with good knowledge of either mw:Extension:GuidedTour or javascript in general could pop over, as that's the first idea I'd like to test. I can probably manage without anyone, but it'd help tremendously. Thanks ~Charmlet 04:10, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Copyright violations in the references, not the article

Template:ResolveD Dear reviewers: This article: Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/Robert King (2) has quite a few references, all properly cited, but only three are to the original sites ( one of which is not about the subject). The others are two screen shots of newpaper articles about the subject which have been added to the subject's web site. Isn't this a copyright violation? Since it's not on Misplaced Pages, should the screen shots be accepted as references? Or would the references be acceptable if the URLs to the screen shots were removed by the references left? (The article has other problems.) —Anne Delong (talk) 18:43, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I would say this isn't a reliable source; They should directly reference the paper. I would also say this is a copyvio. Mdann52 (talk) 10:08, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

It is a violation in that it breaches Misplaced Pages:Copyrights#Linking to copyrighted works. However, 'Turner, Amy (25 September 2011). "Game On". The Sunday Times', for example, is still a reliable source - it just needs the copyright-violating hyperlink removed from it. So, yes, the references are acceptable if the hyperlinks are removed. Arthur goes shopping (talk) 10:15, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Strange submission

Dear reviewers: This article: Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/Metin2 has been deleted three times in 2007. Now a new page has been submitted with this name, but it isn't in English. When I tried to decline it, the list of deletions comes up, but not the Afc script. Is this a bug? —Anne Delong (talk) 01:23, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

That's a script bug, yes. I'll decline it manually and hope they still have the "notify author" link in their newfangled, not-to-be-used-manually decline message box. Huon (talk) 01:55, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

And no, we don't have the "notify author" link any more. Doesn't really matter in this case since I speedied the draft as an attack page and notified the submitter of that. Huon (talk) 02:07, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Second opinions please

I have doubts about a few of the reviews I've done, please take a look at:

• Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/Royal Azel - See also the discussion on my Talk page - User talk:Dodger67#Royal Azel Decline
• Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/Another Stream (Band)
• Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/The Destiny Program

Thanks Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:08, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/Royal Azel - the refs are all about the mineral itself, while the article is about one trade name for the mineral. The editor may have done research, but little of that research is referenced in the article. Rankersbo (talk) 08:41, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Huon (talk · contribs) has provided a pretty spot on appraisal of Royal Azel at the help desk. Another stream look like a non-notable band to me, the sources fall well short of the GNG and I can't see that any part of MUSICBIO applies because they appear only to have released one album, and I can't even be sure that's an album because neither the article or the sources tell us. The destiny program look like they might be notable but the body text screams copyvio to me, I can't check at the moment as I'm short on time and editing from my ipad, but I'd look into it. Pol430 talk to me 09:13, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I'd guess that The Destiny Program was more or less translated from de:The_Destiny_Program, I wasn't able to find closer matches elsewhere in EN or DE language sources--j⚛e decker 17:55, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and created the Royal Azel redirect; a Google Books search showed that it's indeed a common alternative name for the mineral, used in books on jewelry and crystal healing and even in a fantasy novel. I've also commented on Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/The Destiny Program; Laut.de seems reliable to me, Blabbermouth's status as a reliable source is disputed, the others are primary or unreliable sources. I endorse the review. Huon (talk) 18:31, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

A guide to referencing for newbies

Just a heads up to anyone who is as unaware of its existence as I was until recently: There is a help page/tutorial on adding references that is more graphical than WP:REFB and WP:CITE, and includes a video. I have added a shortcut to it which is WP:INTREF. Personally, I think it will be more helpful to newbies than other wall-o-text pages. Pol430 talk to me 19:25, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

And then there's always my Ref-Template: {{subst:User:Shearonink/ref}}

which looks like the following (sorry if this messes up the headers on the page...Shearonink (talk) 03:01, 6 July 2013 (UTC)):

Adding references can be easy

Hello! Here's how to add references from reliable sources for the content you add to Misplaced Pages. This helps maintain the Misplaced Pages policy of verifiability.

Adding well formatted references is actually quite easy:

1. While editing any article or a wikipage, on the top of the edit window you will see a toolbar which says "Cite". Click on it.
2. Then click on "Templates".
3. Choose the most appropriate template and fill in as many details as you can. This will add a well formatted reference that is helpful in case the web URL (or "website link") becomes inactive in the future.
4. Click on Preview when you're done filling out the 'Cite (web/news/book/journal)' to make sure that the reference is correct.
5. Click on Insert to insert the reference into your editing window content.
6. Click on Show preview to Preview all your editing changes.

• Before clicking on Save page, check that a References header   ==References==   is near the end of the article.
• And check that   {{Reflist}}    is directly underneath that header.

7.  Click on Save page. ...and you've just added a complete reference to a Misplaced Pages article.

You can read more about this on Help:Edit toolbar or see this video File:RefTools.ogv.
Hope this helps, --Shearonink (talk) 02:59, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

• To use this message, place {{subst:User:Shearonink/ref}} on User:talk pages when needed.

Hope that this helps, feel free to remove the "demo" version above if it's too much in the way. Shearonink (talk) 02:59, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Quick update for the July AFC backlog drive.

A quick update for the participants in the July Backlog Drive, on the matter "Now where are those automatically updated statistics i signed up for"? The short version is: "Sorry that took so long, but they will be updated before the end of the weekend!".

The long version - for those interested - is that i am currently improving AFCBuddy's code in order to make it more efficient and resilient. Right now AFCBuddy has two issues:

• AFCBuddy generates the output for the various list and overviews and saves these to several text files - updating Misplaced Pages is all manual work (Can take 30-45 min)
• AFCBuddy's code is decent, but not very resilient. If it encounters something unexpected it is quite likely to error out entirely. For example, if a user didn't create a drive page for this month the code that tries to count listed contributions errors out.

Both issues should be solved before the weekends end. Uploading will change to automatic, and the program should be more resilient which saves a load of time. For most part you shouldn't notice anything different, except that i will likely update the stats more often since it won't require an hour or so of my time to do this. At the same time this change means that i won't be combing trough every AFCbuddy result anymore either - so please keep an eye out of anything odd and let me know if something seems to bug out. Excirial 19:46, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Hoax?

This page Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/Scott Farquharson has been deleted once as a hoax earlier this year. I have been trying to find out it the current article contains incorrect information. I have run out of time before finding out whether the same person who is the poet and works at Harlequin is also the person who has had cancer and ADHD and has been in various productions. (I have to go out to a musical session) I thought I would leave a heads-up in case someone else wants to investigate further. Maybe this new article is completely legit, but I noticed that another user User:Harlequin Publishing Ltd has been blocked. —Anne Delong (talk) 22:52, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't appear to be a hoax, but he's not notable. Pol430 talk to me 23:04, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

This one definitely isn't a hoax, as I am the Scott Farquharson it speaks of. Kind of disappointing to be thought of as not notable, as I feel the fact that I have done a number of charity fund raising activity, written two poetry books, recovered from cancer, written, performed and produced 2 of my own CD's as well as 'lovers dance' by Rod Birchall, 'Pack it up' by Except for Access, 'The Machine' by Daniel Pettitt (which he is using to raise awareness of schizophrenia) appeared on Radio Cleveland, Radio Leeds Introducing, many newspaper articles, got to the final auditions of the world tour of spirit of the dance, appeared in a large number of stage shows including the ones stated, I was part of the Metrocentre's own dance company, 'Shoppertainment', played an extra part in 'Our Friend in the North', and loads more besides, in fact if you look I am all over the internet. It would be awesome to have my own wikipedia page! I know I'm not famous, but I have worked damned hard all my life to get passed all of the issues brought on from what I now know was ADHD, including the symtom I suffered from most which was depression. which gripped me most in 2007 when it consumed me completely and I tried to end things completely.

It's nice to think that someone out there thought me worthy for such a prestigious site. I fear the person who set up the Harlequin Publishing Ltd page was one of the people I work with in my company, so apologies for that.

As you are obviously knowledgeable about this site, please could you let me know what specifically might be classed as notable (Aside from being one of the mass murderers on here or someone guilty of genocide) so that I might be able have the page accepted? I have done a lot more than what is listed on there in my life, people obviously just can't find proof of it online. It would be great to feel my life's efforts were not fruitless. User: information_super_farmer 03:09, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Notability, Misplaced Pages:Notability (biography). davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 02:58, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Short version - It depends on the amount and quality of press coverage you've received. It does not have to be online, paper sources are acceptable. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 08:07, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Cant de la Senyera

The song "Cant de la Senyera" appears to be a song prominent in the process of Catalan independence. It resulted in the imprisonment of Jordi Pujol

It would be good to see an article explaining why — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.183.128.76 (talk • contribs) 23:25, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Do any newspapers, books, magazines or academic journals mention the song? Sources in the Catalan language are good too. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:01, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

This page is for users involved in this project's administration. Please ask this question at the Misplaced Pages:Reference desk. They specialize in answering knowledge questions (except how to use Misplaced Pages, since that is what the Help Desk is for). Just follow the link, select the relevant section, and ask away. --Nathan2055 14:26, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Since he mentioned it, for kicks I just translated the es.wiki into Cant de la Senyera to improve our coverage. Needs sourcing now though. MatthewVanitas (talk) 16:08, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Problem with the AfC helper script

Tonite, I reviewed Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/Lighting a Billion Lives ( LaBL). I finished my review and reloaded the page and reviewed my review. Then I went to my watch list and imagine my surprise when I discovered another user had reviewed it and it overwrote my review. How does this happen? There certainly has to be a way to prevent two users from getting "the token" at the same time. Gtwfan52 (talk) 09:47, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

That has never happened before. Honestly, I think it was just a fluke edit conflict. --Nathan2055 14:02, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it was strange. From my end, what it looked like was I had that page open and was going through the resources in different tabs. During this time from the history, Gtwfan declined the submission. I then used AFCHelper to also decline the submission, and to me it looked like everything was normal, and that the script had worked normally. Still, mea culpa for not using the review in progress template. This does look like a fluke conflict though. Tazerdadog (talk) 20:22, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Nothing that can be done by us developers actually. We can't prevent the script of doing edit conflicts and that is actually such a rare case that this has never happened before... The chance to create an edit conflict has been increased as we catching the page information when clicking on "review" while collecting information and doing cleanups on the page text. Requesting the page text shortly before declining (or accepting) would actually result in a) a slower script and b) much more traffic for the server and the client (web browser) - and I doubt that this kind of extra traffic is useful for preventing any edit conflict. (and edit conflicts are that seldom with that few reviewers and such big backlogs...)

Just my two cents... If there is any consensus I will implement any stuff when having time for it an high priority issues were resolved. mabdul 11:25, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Let there be UPDATE!!!

Hello, I am back from my short vacation with a nice update to the script coming your way. It is v4.1.19, and is now available to everyone using the stable script (the gadget). It includes all the changes posted here and is really awesome. Give it a try today! Testers: a new beta build will be released soon. I'm just having trouble finding admins to do it for me. :P Thanks, Nathan2055 14:06, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I've updated beta now, check the changelog here. Remember to WP:BYPASS after this update, everyone! Thanks, Nathan2055 16:32, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Second opinion please: Did I overreact?

With this review of Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/Wizkid? Which has now been moved to mainspace by Pratyya Ghosh (talk · contribs) and, as far as I'm concerned, is still highly promotional. See the related thread on my talkpage, also: User talk:Pol430#Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/Wizkid for more. Pol430 talk to me 17:35, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

See also Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Articles for creation/2013 1#Proposed topic ban from AFC review - Pratyya Ghosh. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:40, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

It seems relevant, so I thought I'd mention I raised with the reviewer the question of a review in the last couple of days on Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/Luis Ximénez Caballero which should have been declined for reason of the article being written in spanish (and thus directing the user to the correct wikipedia), but was declined for some issue regarding the citations. Any reviewer can make mistakes from time to time, but now I see these comments too, it doesn't inspire confidence. --_nonsense ferret 22:27, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I see he's also volunteered himself to review other people's reviews in the current backlog drive. Considering the above, perhaps this is not wise? Pol430 talk to me 09:58, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

What should be done?

FloodAlerts was accepted in AfC without any citations. SL93 (talk) 21:31, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Checking the reviewing instructions should be done, by you - they specifically say inline citations are not required. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:38, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

There are inline cites now anyway. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 21:55, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I did review it, but did not see it. I hate it when people assume things. SL93 (talk) 23:15, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I would also recommend telling other reviewers who do the same thing as well. SL93 (talk) 00:02, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Political candidates on WP

See WT:Articles for creation/Ken Lanci, there's nothing particularly blatant, but it is a rather "nice" article for a person who is busy campaigning for political office - not a single word of criticism. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 21:54, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Does someone have time to email the offices of the guy's political opponents, and ask for title, date, page number , author, and newspaper name of any newspaper that has offered critical comment of the person? Would be nice. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:31, 7 July 2013 (UTC) Please investigate that if Hasteur's concerns are subsequently met! thank you. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:41, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Being a office holder of a trivial sub-state office is questionable notability. Being mayor of the 45th largest city in the US might be notable, but being a candidate for the office does not pass the politician threshold. Being an author on what appears to be a vanity press is does not make the subject a notable author. Style of writing (and lots of 1 sentence paragraphs that read like paraphrases of a bulleted biography) is not compatible with our needs. WP:POLITICIAN is the SNG for politicians/prospective politicians. My reading is that for candidates, they need to be a candidate for a state wide office (or congress) and done something during the campaign that makes for interesting coverage. This subject doesn't (in my mind) meet those requirements so I declined the submission. Hasteur (talk) 02:19, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Is speedy deletion the new normal?

I recently stumbled upon three different drafts CSD-blanked for what I'd call spurious reasons: One, two and a third one I don't remember. While I of course agree that "unambiguous advertising or promotion" is a speedy deletion criterion, these don't look like particularly egregious offenders to me; certainly not bad enough to warrant speedy deletion, let alone page blanking (I thought that was reserved for copyvios and attack pages?). Have I missed the "let's delete spam more freely" memo? Huon (talk) 06:07, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I would say that neither of those two are particularly bad, especially in AfC space. Both edit summaries say that they were declined with CSDH, maybe there is a glitch with it that CSDs automatically? --kelapstick 06:11, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I just ran through a scenario of decline, resubmit, decline and blank and CSD, revert to see if it kept the CSD checked. It stayed unchecked so it doesn't look like a glitch to me. --kelapstick 06:24, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

AFAICS, Neither of those pages is particularly egregious justifying a blanking of the content. I think the reviewer may be confusing the terms of WP:G10. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:45, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I am also curious why the page blanking is an option for advertisement. The tag on it says that it has been blanked for privacy, security, or copyright. None of those apply to advertising. Perhaps that as an option should only be available under certain declining criteria. Have you talked to Arctic Kangaroo about it? I saw you left a note at the other editor's talk page (who I see is a new user). --kelapstick 06:59, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Page blanking in fact is only necessary when possible legal issues are concerned, such as defamatory content about living persons, and copyright issues. Advertising alone is not a reason to blank. Neverthless, all of these cases are generally candidates for speedy deletion, and even ultra-speedy summary deletion at admin discretion if s/he is the first user to come across them. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:57, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I know that. I was just wondering why we are physically able to check off "Blank the submission" as part of the CSDH interface when declining for any reason. You can even blank a submission that is declined because it is a blank submission. It seems like an unnecessary if not inappropriate feature when available for all criteria. --kelapstick 08:45, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

This caused me some "finger trouble" too. The speedy option only becomes available after blanking has been selected but it should be the other way round. Not all speedy-able drafts need to be blanked but all blank-able drafts should be speedied. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 09:06, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I've just checked again using Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/sandbox - with the helper script you definitely must select blanking before the option to speedy becomes available. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 09:14, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I think that flipping those two options would solve some of the issues. --kelapstick 09:33, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I've never liked the speedy tag that the script adds, it lumps everything into the 'unspecified reason for deletion' category. All CSDs should be listed in their correct category as admins monitor some categories more than others. For example attack pages rarely hang round for more than an hour, whereas I've seen G11's hang around for more than 24hrs. I agree with Roger above that the process is illogical. In the dark past we almost never speedied AfCs, we just just blanked them if they were promotional, attacking, neg BLP, a Type 3 submission or otherwise too 'iffy' to be on display. The CSD parameter was coded into the script much later. Pol430 talk to me 09:39, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

What I think we should do is only allow the script to blank and CSD for BLPs and copyvios, respectively. It's reported in the tracker (see the notice at the top of this section), and it will be in the next update. --Nathan2055 16:01, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Except that BLPs are not speedy-able unless they are entirely unsourced and entirely negative in tone. I thought you were going to amend the description of the BLP decline reason in the script menu? Pol430 talk to me 20:10, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

@Kelapstick: There's another tag that says that the reason for blanking the page can be the decline reason. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 16:06, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, part of the problem is the speedy deletion tag says it is nominated for the reason it was declined. If it is declined for poor referencing CSDH gives the option of blanking and CSDing it for just that reason, and poor referencing is explicitly not a speedy deletion criterion. The speedy deletion and blanking option should actually be removed from CSDH. When a CSD tag is actually required it should be put on manually or via Twinkle. Attack pages are already autoblanked when applying {{db-attack}}. Keeping it in CSDH just allows too much room for human error. --kelapstick 22:44, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Category:Pending AfC submissions is clear!

This is the first time since my year of editing here at WikiProject AfC that I have seen Category:Pending AfC submissions completely free of all articles! Not sure if this is real or someone being disruptive, because this seems too good to be true. It's like the national debt being completely paid. :) Kudos to everyone! Michaelzeng7 (talk) 14:31, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Amazing, isn't it? I think a thank you for everyone who has been working on this is in place, but be careful, we're not out of the woods yet. The wave of re-submits should be incoming. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 15:26, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Articles for creation/July 2013 Backlog Elimination Drive#Nothing to review!.

@Michaelzeng7 What do you mean "Not sure if this is real or someone being disruptive"? Are you seriously the only editor here who doesn't know about the backlog drive? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 17:55, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Hehe, I've heard of the drives, but I've never actually put myself in the right state of mind to join in. :P Michaelzeng7 (talk) 20:44, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

An award for everyone

		The Articles for Creation barnstar
		This Articles for creation barnstar is bestowed to everyone who helped clear out the backlog. Thanks for all your help! --Nathan2055 15:57, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

We actually cleared the backlog? This feels so strange...Howicus (talk) 16:37, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Now you know how it felt back when we had Chzz (talk · contribs) (for those who don't know, Chzz was essentially the Superman of AfC, sometimes reviewing 1000 submissions a day, he left after a big fiasco about IRC). --Nathan2055 18:55, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

We could use a few more experienced reviewers to help with "reviewing the reviews". This is only my second drive, so I don't feel confident to do it yet. —Anne Delong (talk) 22:45, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Ditto, this is my first. --j⚛e decker 23:41, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

AFCH

The gadget worked perfectly fine for me for weeks, and then all of a sudden, I can't use it. Can somebody find out what's wrong? I use IE9. buffbills7701 18:29, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello. You're using IE9, the first thing I always suggest users of IE do is check to see if they accidentally clicked "compatibility mode". Have you done this? Also, the {{help}} template isn't appropriate as the editors that can help you would be the AFCH developer team (Mabdul—Nathan2055—Technical 13—The Earwig—Excirial), so you aren't any more likely to find someone by using a template that attracts many other editors. Anyways, let's work through this problem. Technical 13 (talk) 18:49, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

@Buffbills7701: - Something else you should know is that the script is known to work horribly on IE. We develop and deploy the script using Firefox, so it is our recommended browser. --Nathan2055 18:53, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Striking simply wrong comment mabdul 19:24, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

@buffbills7701 We have restored the version from June. We didn't realized that the WMF introduced yet another feature that prevents us from loading other script in that way we doing it right now. mabdul 19:24, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm on Firefox now, and it still doesn't work. buffbills7701 19:33, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Script error: Section headings

Please take a look at this edit: The Helper script removes the newlines for section headings, appending them to the end of the previous paragraph and thus breaking the sections. Huon (talk) 23:51, 7 July 2013 (UTC)