Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Jordan Older (2nd nomination): Difference between revisions

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	:''''Comment'''' Claims like mr X played in the Brazilian Serie A can easily be verified/falsified using a database like this one . As you can see it goes back a very long time before there was such a thing as internet. ] (]) 21:27, 10 July 2013 (UTC)		:''''Comment'''' Claims like mr X played in the Brazilian Serie A can easily be verified/falsified using a database like this one . As you can see it goes back a very long time before there was such a thing as internet. ] (]) 21:27, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
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If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Misplaced Pages contributors. Misplaced Pages has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.

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Jordan Older

AfDs for this article:

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

I am concerned that the subject of this article does not meet Misplaced Pages's notability standards. I have gone over each of its current citations and here are my conclusions:

Cite #1, which is used five times in the article, references an article on the website "futebolinterior.com.br". The site's content appears to consist mostly of tables of soccer matches— its articles are pulled in from other web sites, and it does not appear to have any original publication content or editorial staff of its own. It's principal draw is for people looking to see which team beat which in year X, and it is plastered with advertisements. Furthermore, I could find only one other Misplaced Pages article that has ever used it as a source. My web search on the domain produced a list of statistical information about the site (number of visits per month, estimated value in US$, etc.), but nothing about its role as an independent source of reliable news on anything.

All of that wouldn't matter so much if the citation had an author. Instead, the author of the piece is "Agência Futebol Interior," which sounds to me a lot like "futebol interior", etc. Given the autobiographical nature of the piece, it might easily have been composed by the subject of the Misplaced Pages article himself.

"Cite" #2 is a link to another Misplaced Pages article. It should be a wikilink, not a reference.

Cite #3 is a legitimate citation to a legitimate newspaper. However, the article it links to is not about the subject of the Misplaced Pages article, but rather to a player that he helped get to Germany. It could be used to help establish the notability of THAT individual, but cannot be used to establish the notability of the article's current subject.

Cite #4 is an article about soccer in German; it is being used in this article as a reference for the 50th anniversary of West Side Story. If a mistake, then a mistake. But bizarre.

Cite #5 is a link to a team blog. Not a reliable independent source of information.

Cite #6 is a link to a poll result. According to the page itself, in order to appear in the poll result, a person has to have received more then one vote from a "fan" during an open voting period. Jordan Older appears at the very bottom of the table as a person who got at least two votes in the poll. It does not say how many votes he received, and in any case appearing on a table such as this does not exactly constitute "coverage" because there is no "article" here. (Frankly, if this citation does anything, it rather embarrassingly indicates how NON-notable Older is.)

Cite #7 is a link to a table of match information. Again, there is no article here, just table of scores. Like any such table or a business listing in a telephone directory, it does not go towards establishing notability.

Cite #8 is a link to the Ventura Film Festival website— not an independent source.

Cite #9 is to a legitimate newspaper, but the newspaper article it links to does not mention the article's subject. It is a news article about West Side Story.

Cite #10 is to a legitimate news article— about the Ventura Film Festival. Older is briefly mentioned in the article, but he is not its subject. This kind of passing reference cannot be used to establish notability.

My own additional and independent review of evidence of notability did not produce anything that would constitute multiple reliable third-party sources. Furthermore, given the tone and style of the article and the fact that its principal author has no edit history other than its creation and maintenance, I am concerned that this individual may have a conflict of interest. This, combined with the insubstantial nature of the 10 citations the article currently includes, moves me to propose that the article be considered for deletion. Also please note that the article was already nominated for speedy deletion as a hoax shortly after its creation, and the nomination failed (the article was and is not a hoax— its subject still doesn't appear to be notable, however). KDS4444 05:48, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi! I am a great supporter of American football, but I don't quite understand the objections made here. First of all, User:KDS4444 claims that the article does not meet the notability standards while, on the contrary, the notability guideline says "Players who have appeared, and managers who have managed, in a fully professional league, will generally be regarded as notable."

Cite #7 clearly provides that the subject was the part of a fully professional league (USL is listed in the WikiProject fully professional leagues). Irrespective of whether cite # 7 is a table or an editorial article, it clearly establishes that the subject was a player who has appeared in a fully professional league, thus meeting the Misplaced Pages notability standards.

I have gone over each of the objections of User:KDS4444 and here are my views:

Cite #1: User:KDS4444 claims that the articles of this website are pulled from some other sources and that the website does not have any original publications. I searched the Alexa.com website and came to know that a site ranking 489 in Alexa (sites under 1000 are highly authoritative like the New York Times) regularly uses content from and links to the news articles of the Futebol Interior web site ( http://www.futebolinterior.com.br/ ) One such example can be seen here --> http://bbs.hupu.com/4907578.html

The example above helps prove the fact that http://www.futebolinterior.com.br is an independent source of reliable news, and can be used to judge the notability of the subject.

Cite #2: Shows that the subject's team was in the Serie A, which qualifies it as notable because it is listed as a "fully professional league".

Cite #3: The purpose of the cite is to help establish the fact that the subject has played for South America, Europe and North America. An excerpt from the source provides: “Older, who has played professionally in Brazil and Europe, had founded King Sports Management and Ventura County FC to help young players realize their dream of playing professionally in Europe, and he believed that Ledesma possessed the talent to make the transition overseas.” That clearly establishes the notability of the subject. I don’t understand the comments of User:KDS4444 about how it does NOT develop notability at all! It clearly does establish subject notability here.

Cite #4 : The information in the reference provides that he has played in the top Brazilian Football League. Again I’m unable to understand how it is a mistake!

Cite #5: It might not be the most reliable source, but it does provide valuable information and backs up the information saying the same thing as the other references. Nothing wrong with that!

Cite #6: First of all, Soccer America is one of the most esteemed poles in the country, and secondly popularity and notability are two entirely different things. A very notable player may get the least votes, but that doesn’t mean he is not notable. Among all the England players, if Emile Heskey (or any other player) gets the least votes, he still remains notable. In fact, a player who is the least popular in one poll may be the most popular in the other. Further, if you know your football, this list is only comprised of American football legends, each and every one of them. So being low on the list full of legends is not so bad!

Citation #7: Well, this is the official website of USL and it clearly provides that Jordan Older played in (at least one) fully professional league, thus meeting the notability standards.

Citation #8 & #9: Well, every citation does not prove notability. The primary purpose of the references is to help the reader further pursue the article and reference the other claims about the film festival.

Citation #10: Article states: “(The Ventural Film Festival) Started by Jordan Older in 2004, the event is now a volunteer-based organization that donates a majority of the profits to environmental issues such as forest and ocean preservation”. True, it’s not the main subject of the article; but it does tell that Older was the founder of this event. Thus, the purpose of the reference is fully served.

Overall, I think article had some minor issues, but User:KDS4444 should have focused on correcting them rather than search for the reasons to justify the deletion of the article. There are a number of articles on Misplaced Pages that have errors of tone or formatting but that doesn’t mean they aren’t notable, or they should be considered for deletion. Therefore, my consensus is KEEP I strongly object to the deletion of the article and request the volunteers to help improve this article by correcting the issues present in the tone and format of this article. Usmanwardag (talk) 10:29, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

~~If you look, he played in USL Premier Development League, which is an amateur league. That appears to be the only independent confirmation of him playing in an actual soccer game with an actual team.~~ Updated further down.LionMans Account (talk) 18:21, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

KEEP I reviewed this article from AFC and found nothing wrong with it. Usmanwardag found notablility. Two reasons that push me towards "Keep". buff bills 7701 12:34, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Delete (as hoax removed) If you look, you won't find his name on any transfer lists. A soccer player who played in as many professional leagues as this person claims would appear there. He appears to be a self-promoter from what I've seen. LionMans Account (talk) 17:56, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:23, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:24, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:24, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:24, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Brazil-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:25, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

User:LionMans This article has already had the HOAX vote declined/denied. Please stick to the issue at hand which is notability. Thanks for taking the time to comment on the deletion of my article about Jordan Older. I respect your right to vote to delete it. However it's already been voted as NOT A HOAX. This issue is notability here. Please correct your argument to address this. Regarding your claim about not appearing on any transfer lists here is my logic. I can find him on some but where do you find the transfer lists from the 1990's? If you could find a "transfer list" from then it wouldn't be on the Internet and you can't even find Eric Wynalda who is the #1 American soccer player of all time on a transfer list from 1993. Thanks again for your time. I think you should reconsider your logic and focus on the notability issue at hand.

To refute your hasty claims a quick search finds transfer lists and more stats, BOTH PROVE YOU WRONG

I respect your right to want to delete the article but more and more people are reading it and agreeing with me and my logic and voting to KEEP it.

KEEP Fussballspieler11 (talk) 19:16, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I have read over everything and all the references look solid. And I Googled him and found him appearing on several transfer lists and even talk of him being on the "DFL" transfer list back in 2004 (although this is not a newspaper report) it does refute your idea that he's not on any transfer lists.

I see nothing wrong with the article and find it interesting. KEEP Eragon.raju (talk) 19:20, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Nice to find those. Although the third link is a message board (generally not admissible), the rest of the comments on the thread seem to suggest people don't have a high opinion of him. The first two (same link, different languages), shows a transfer in 2005 from A-League (1995–2004)San Diego Flash (which folded in 2001) to Major Indoor Soccer League (2001–08)San Diego Sockers (2001–04), which folded in 2004. No team of those names played again until 2009. Just makes me skeptical. LionMans Account (talk) 20:01, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if people have a high opinion of him; popularity is not one of the inclusion criteria. Notability is, and as there are several references stating that he's played in professional leagues he seems to meet that one. I think, to justify deleting the article, you're going to have to demonstrate that those sources are wrong and back it up with appropriate RS.--FergusM1970 07:49, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

That message board is full of articles just about the subject, but who cares? They are just gossip for the most part and not admissable. The point still proves, by your own rules that the subject meets Association Football notability by having appeared in a fully professional league (and more than one even) http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Notability_%28sports%29#Association_football

Knowing this why don't you change your vote to KEEP ? It's a simple matter of yes did he appear in a fully professional league?. The fact is (ref #7 alone proves beynd a shadow of doubt) that he did! End of story. Fussballspieler11 (talk) 21:03, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Score 6-2 in favor of KEEP. There are 6 KEEP and 2 delete if you count the anonymous post on the talk page here and C.Fred voting to keep that it WAS NOT A HOAX. And there are maybe one or two more who protected it as not a hoax as well. Fussballspieler11 (talk) 19:27, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Calm down. Score isn't kept. The main issue is whether this article meets WP:N and WP:BIO. Articles stay here for roughly 7 days (sometimes more) unless they get speedy deleted (which this one won't). LionMans Account (talk) 19:53, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm a zen master. Notability for Football Association players is defined as having played in a fully professinal league. The subject of my article has played in more than one fully professional league. This is satisfied by reference #7 from the fully professional USL league (and the other leagues but they aren't even needed to establish subject's notability, they are just extra padding for my claims.) And yes, it seems the score is kept. The deletion of articles is defined by Misplaced Pages to be determined by the consensus (score) of the editors who say KEEP or DELETE. Here is the football notability link for you. The links you posted WP:N and WP:BIO both link to: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Notability_%28sports%29#Association_football it says in item 2 that "Players who have appeared, and managers who have managed, in a fully professional league, will generally be regarded as notable." and all of the subjects leagues are listed in the list of fully professional leagues at http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues. Thanks again for your help in fortifying my proof and claims. The issue is really simply proved by reference #7, but like I said there are 9 other references supporting and providing further proof from 3rd party, reputable, newspapers and magazines and official team and league web sites. At this point I feel that you should read your own links (as well as the transfer lists) that you posted and change your vote to KEEP. Fussballspieler11 (talk) 20:05, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Okay, you found a reference showing he played for San Diego Gauchos, who played in ~~USL Premier Development League, an amateur league.~~ Seriously, calm down. LionMans Account (talk) 21:20, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, USL Second Division (I was incorrect). At the time though, they were in the third tier for US Soccer. I was able to find information showing he played in one other game. However, it is still extremely difficult to show notablity (other than an article simply saying he played in 2 games). LionMans Account (talk) 01:35, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

User:LionMans Account] Why do you keep saying things like this when you know they aren't true? http://soccerstats.us/bios/jordan-older/ shows 4 games.

Here is another FULLY PRO LEAGUE GAME he appeared in: http://www.uslsoccer.com/scripts/runisa.dll?M2:gp::72011+Elements/Display+E+47107+Stats/+23435

and another

http://www.uslsoccer.com/scripts/runisa.dll?M2:gp::72011+Elements/Display+E+47107+Stats/+23529

This is actually a lot of references for small defunct pro soccer league from 2003 in America. The main reference is the feature article from the top soccer newspaper in Brazil

http://www.futebolinterior.com.br/news/259995+Ex-jogador_vira_empresario_e_comeca_a_ganhar_espaco_no_futebol

This is also good and says he played professional in Europe and Brazil and is a VALID reference since it is a full newspaper article: http://www.pvnews.com/sports/article_ed96e25e-76da-11e2-a086-001a4bcf887a.html

And just to remind you. Every team this player has played for is listed as a fully professional league.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues#Defunct_Leagues

Brazil BRA CONMEBOL Campeonato Brasileiro Série A Yes Campeonato Brasileiro Série B Yes Campeonato Paulista Série A1 Yes

I appreciate your efforts and thank you for letting me provide the correct information for you so you will know the truth. Fussballspieler11 (talk) 06:11, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Actually the reference shows him playing for the Gauchos when they were in a professional league. If you look at it you'll find a drop-down to let you find matches by league. The league for that game is USL PRO, ergo Older played in a professional league.--FergusM1970 23:40, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

The information you have is incorrect. The San Diego Gauchos played in the USL Professional League in 2003 when the subject appeared for them. In later years they dropped to the amateur league. You are seriously uninformed and mis-representing the facts again. Just read the link from reference #7 it clearly says USL "Pro Soccer League" and is dated 2003. Fussballspieler11 (talk) Here is the link for reference #7. http://uslpro.uslsoccer.com/stats/23496.html I have other ones too that clearly say USL "Pro Soccer League" where the subject played. Fussballspieler11 (talk) 22:44, 9 July 2013 (UTC)' Note: even the URL says "uslpro" while the PDL (amateur) part of their web site for the amateur teams has a different sub-section of the site noted by a different URL, differen label on the page, and a different banner that says PDL not USL PRO.

Shown here

http://pdl.uslsoccer.com/ <-- amateur http://uslpro.uslsoccer.com/stats/23496.html <-- professional

You've now spent over 8 hours trying to prove the unprovable to get my article deleted. Fussballspieler11 (talk) 22:48, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

User:LionsMans Account Errrrr- wrong. You must be looking at the wrong link. The page linked clearly says USL Professional League and that is clearly listed on the list of fully professional leagues at http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues

Keep trying, maybe you'll say that the Serie A where Pele and Neymar played isn't professional too? In fact the subject lived and played in the same city as Pele and on the same team as Neymar. Please stop with the horsing around when you've been proven wrong a real man admits it. Change your vote to KEEP Fussballspieler11 (talk) 21:26, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Delete Semi-pro player who lacks substantial coverage in reliable independent sources. Candleabracadabra (talk) 23:03, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Keep There are ample RS confirming that Older has played professionally. The references are a mess, but cite 7 is a record for a professional league game he took part in. Cite 3 is an RS and it states quite clearly that he has played professionally. I'm also concerned about inaccurate statements by some of those nominating for deletion. For example KDS4444 claims that cite 4 is "an article about soccer in German." I thought I'd have a look at it, because I speak German, but guess what? It's not in German; it's in Norwegian, as far as I can tell. I don't see how he can disregard a reference without even being able to tell what language it's in. Older is hardly a world-class player but there seems little doubt that he's played professionally, so that makes him notable by WP's criteria. To be honest this request looks frivolous.--FergusM1970 23:36, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Not a not-a-vote, just a comment. I am the administrator who declined the request to speedy delete the article as a hoax. Because some sources validated claims in the article, it did not appear to be a blatant hoax, so CSD G3 did not apply. I had reservations about whether there were enough sources above the local level to meet WP:GNG and indicated that the article might wind up here. I also posted a message at WikiProject Football to bring in subject matter experts. I have not, and do not at this time, express an opinion on whether the article should be kept or deleted in this AfD proceeding; my actions only related to speedy deletion criteria G3 and A7. —C.Fred (talk) 03:54, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Delete - Article is about a non-notable footballer. While it appears that he played a few minutes in the USL Second Division with the Gauchos (probably not in a fully-pro league), there is simply no evidence that this article could ever satisfy the GNG. The Ventura County Star article isn't significant coverage, and it cannot be considered verification of the claim that Older played in a fully-pro league. We went through this with the earlier version of the article in 2007 (it was substantially the same). Jogurney (talk) 04:29, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

~~KEEP~~ User:Jogurney Thanks for your comments, but you need to look over the references again. Your comments don't match and since 2007 all the references are new. So maybe you need to be updated? Some points: 1) the Ventura County Star is not used as a reference for any of the notability, only to support the Ventura Film Festival information. It was never used to claim anything about soccer. 2) There are three(3) independent newspapers covering and supporting that the subject played in a "fully-pro" league. It's a simple concept. Either he appeared in a game in a league listed as fully pro (he did) or not. That's all that's required to be notable according to http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:NFOOTBALL#Association_football . The league is listed as a fully pro league, so is the Brazilian Serie A and Paulista Serie A, that's 3 fully-pro leagues verified by indpendent sources. 3) you said the the leauge is not fully pro? Why then is it then listed on Misplaced Pages as being fully pro? http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues#Defunct_Leagues 4) you are mis-representing the number of minutes played, it's surely not a "few minutes" http://soccerstats.us/bios/jordan-older/ shows its 4 games in 2003 for the USL2 during the players retirement years, his mid 30's 5) What are your motives for down playing this players accomplishments over a 5 year period? 6) Futebol Interior is not a local newspaper it covers all of the top soccer and sports news in Brazil and is one of the top 900 most visited web sites in all of Brazil and is ranked as very athoritative by Alexa. This is why I used it for the first reference. It's the most clear and impressive reference and then is followed by the Palos Verdes News, then followed by the official game report from the USL Pro leauge. That's 3 qualifying references that aren't just "local news". It's been 6 years since you last called to delete this article so please update yourself on the new references since you are clearly off a little bit by saying the Ventura County Star was used, at all to support any soccer claims in my article, because it was not in anyway used for this. I'm not calling you blind but you must have mis-read things. Thanks again for taking time to review my article. Fussballspieler11 (talk) 05:14, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Procedural note. A user should only have one !vote (keep, delete, etc.) on the page. If they change their mind, they should strike out the old recommendation. Since you've duplicated your keep recommendation across multiple comments, I've struck this one. —C.Fred (talk) 05:27, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks C.Fred. Here's a communication I just posted to Jogurny's talk page:

User:Jogurney I'm concerened that you didn't really read the article and it's references.

You made some very inacurrate comments:

1) Ventura County Star was used to reference soccer claims

- this never happened, the Ventura County Star articles were in reference to the subject being the founder of the Ventura Film Festival and listing the celebrity guests, nothing about soccer here

2) subject played in "probably not in a fully-pro league"

- reference 1 lists 3 teams in the Paulista Serie A and 1 team in the Brazilian Serie A, these are THE biggest leagues in Brazil and are listed as fully professional at

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues

- reference 7 lists the USL Pro Soccer League (USL 1 or 2) where the subject played 4 games in 2003, these are not the biggest leagues in the USA but they are listed as fully professional at

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues

- reference 3 lists that the subject played professionally in Brazil and Europe and so much so that he is able to orchestrate player transfers of local kids into the German Bundesliga

3) the official Sao Paulo FC fan site/blog from 1999 lists the same 3 teams as the Futebol Interior feature article, which I found on the first page of Futebol Interior

- reference 1 lists 3 teams in the Paulista Serie A and 1 team in the Brazilian Serie A, these are THE biggest leagues in Brazil and are listed as fully professional at

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues

- it also lists him as playing along site Sao Paulo FC star defender in Wilson

4) You're quick to support the deletion of this players article, 6 years later, when all the references are new and you clearly didn't read them (based on your mistaken claims) so I'm wondering if you have some kind of vendetta? 6 years is a long time for you to be doing this.

Thanks for your time, never the less. I respect your right to disagree. Fussballspieler11 (talk) 05:31, 10 July 2013 (UTC)'

Comment. I don't appreciate the tone of your reply, but let me address your concerns. I mentioned the VC Star article because I found it while searching for online sources about Jordan Older. The author states that Older was a former pro soccer player, but it provides no evidence that he played even a single competitive match or that the leagues he might have played in were fully-pro. To date, the only league I can be confident he appeared in the USL Second (with the Gauchos) for 100+ minutes. The is very borderline even on a strict interpretation that one second of play in a fully-pro league (if indeed the USL Second was fully-pro at the time) is enough to meet NFOOTBALL (despite loads of AfDs which have held that the GNG needs to be met). While I understand that there are sources noting Older was under contract at fully-pro Brazilian clubs, there is no indication that he ever appeared for one of them in a competitive match in a fully-pro league. He might have trained with the reserves, or even appeared in a friendly, but there is nothing to show that he played in Serie A or the Paulista championship. As it stands, this article has different sources than the one in 2007, but they go no further in demonstrating compliance with NFOOTBALL or more importantly the GNG. Best regards. Jogurney (talk) 17:58, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Further comment'. Here is a more recent example of an American soccer player from the USL lower divisions that signed with a Brazilian professional soccer club, yet never made an appearance in anything but a reserve match. It's not so difficult to believe that Older had a similar experience. Jogurney (talk) 18:06, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Delete - has not received significant coverage in third-party, reliable sources so fails WP:GNG, which outweighs the possibility of him barely passing WP:NFOOTBALL. The US lower leagues are only barely fully-pro now, I very much doubt they were 15-20 years ago when this guy was playing. Note to those !voting keep - to pass WP:NFOOTBALL you have to actually play (not just be signed to a roster), and you have to play in a fully-professional league, not just for a professional team. Giant Snowman 08:37, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

~~KEEP~~ User:GiantSnowman There is no doubt that the subject did play in several fully professional leagues Proof here:

REPORTED IN NEWSPAPERS AND FULLY PRO LEAGUE SITES:

http://www.uslsoccer.com/scripts/runisa.dll?M2:gp::72011+Elements/Display+E+47107+Stats/+23435 (Offical fully professional soccer league) http://www.uslsoccer.com/scripts/runisa.dll?M2:gp::72011+Elements/Display+E+47107+Stats/+23496 (Offical fully professional soccer league) http://www.uslsoccer.com/scripts/runisa.dll?M2:gp::72011+Elements/Display+E+47107+Stats/+23529 (Offical fully professional soccer league) http://www.pvnews.com/sports/article_ed96e25e-76da-11e2-a086-001a4bcf887a.html (respected print and online newspaper) http://www.futebolinterior.com.br/news/259995+Ex-jogador_vira_empresario_e_comeca_a_ganhar_espaco_no_futebol (highly regarded #1 soccer news site from Brazil and ranked highly on Alexa) http://web.archive.org/web/20020209014728/http://www.tricolornet.com.br/noticias/arquivo1999/990717.htm (Official team blog for Sao Paulo FC says he played along side Wilson in BRAZIL and for 3 fully pro Brazilian Teams)

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues Fussballspieler11 (talk) 18:07, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I was just wondering if some of the users voting for the deletion of this page are equally active and/or critical about other football pages/articles/players on Misplaced Pages as well? Just a quick search on the history of those users and I found "NO!". I have watched a lot of football and I keep on searching players on Misplaced Pages, never did I find such a heated discussion! To me, it's apparent that some of the users on this page are working on a hidden agenda, especially when you suddenly appear out of nowhere and tag a page for deletion. Usmanwardag (talk) 11:57, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Ha, you clearly are not a member of WP:FOOTBALL then, as I am - if you were, you would see a high turnover of non-notable articles getting deleted (not that that has any impact whatsoever on this discussion). What is stranger to me is editors coming out of nowhere to try and keep the article! Giant Snowman 12:02, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, that's wikis for you - everyone gets to play. In any case the issue is whether or not Older meets the notability criteria of having played in a professional league, not who wants the article kept/deleted/tattooed on Alyson Hannigan's delectable buttocks. Really, it's simple. Has he played in a professional league? If so he's notable; if not he isn't. It looks like he has, so what's the argument about?--FergusM1970 12:08, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:GNG is satisfied, there are 10 sources. There are 2 sources saying he played in the top leagues in Brazil, there are 3 links from the official USL Pro web site, there are 2 sources outlining that he played professionally in Brazil and Europe. There are 2,834 american soccer player articles on wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/Category:American_soccer_players A quick glance at them show that :::MOST::: lack the same level of references as my article. And many USL Pro players are listed, some using the same kind of game day stats that I have used and some are blatant fakes with MLS links that go to dead links. Here are a few from my subject's area:

I could literally go on ALL DAY listing players with 1) less reliable references 2) less proveable playing experience 3) less wp:gng i.e. less coverage in the newspapers. This is mute point. You guys are trying every avenue to delete my article and its becoming obvious.

General notability guideline Shortcuts:

   WP:GNG
   WP:SIGCOV

If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article or stand-alone list.

1 * "Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail, so no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material.
2 * "Reliable" means sources need editorial integrity to allow verifiable evaluation of notability, per the reliable source guideline. Sources may encompass published works in all forms and media, and in any language. Availability of secondary sources covering the subject is a good test for notability.
3 * "Sources", for notability purposes, should be secondary sources, as those provide the most objective evidence of notability. The number and nature of reliable sources needed varies depending on the depth of coverage and quality of the sources. Multiple sources are generally expected. Sources are not required to be available online, and they are not required to be in English. Multiple publications from the same author or organization are usually regarded as a single source for the purposes of establishing notability.
4 * "Independent of the subject" excludes works produced by those affiliated with the subject or its creator. For example, self-publicity, advertising, self-published material by the subject, the subject's website, autobiographies, and press releases are not considered independent.
5 * "Presumed" means that significant coverage in reliable sources establishes a presumption, not a guarantee, that a subject is suitable for inclusion. Editors may reach a consensus that although a topic meets this criterion, it is not appropriate for a stand-alone article. For example, such an article may violate what Misplaced Pages is not, perhaps the most likely violation being Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information.

A topic for which this criterion is deemed to have been met by consensus, is usually worthy of notice, and satisfies one of the criteria for a stand-alone article in the encyclopedia. Verifiable facts and content not supported by multiple independent sources may be appropriate for inclusion within another article.

Fussballspieler11 (talk) 18:07, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, I am not a member of WP:FOOTBALL, and as I said, I am just an ordinary reader who has a lot of interest in football. I search for a lot of other articles (mostly sports related) on Misplaced Pages, and have never found such debates going on there. I've also seen a number of pages where there are minor issues but that's not the way things work. The general rule is: if you find an issue, correct it. If you can't, then wait for some other volunteer. This page might not be up to the Misplaced Pages's standard but is certainly notable! Usmanwardag (talk) 12:55, 10 July 2013 (UTC) 12:54, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

How is it "certainly notable"? Has it received "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject"? Giant Snowman 12:58, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I could go on listing a number of sources here but here's one for your review. http://www.futebolinterior.com.br/news/259995+Ex-jogador_vira_empresario_e_comeca_a_ganhar_espaco_no_futebol Jordan Older is the main subject of this article and so, this is not just a passing reference. Furthermore, http://www.futebolinterior.com.br/ is a reliable source that is independent of the subject. You can see here a number of wikipedia entries that link to this site: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?search=futebolinterior.com.br&title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=1 I sincerely hope you will objectively look at this discussion and change your vote to KEEP. Usmanwardag (talk) 18:34, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

That article never mentions that Older played in a competitive match for any of those clubs. As I noted above, it is quite possible that he signed for the clubs but only trained and played in the reserves. If he had played in competitive matches, it's much more likely that reliable online Brazilian soccer sources like Globo Esporte or UOL would have some mention of him. Jogurney (talk) 18:38, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

http://www.uslsoccer.com/scripts/runisa.dll?M2:gp::72011+Elements/Display+E+47107+Stats/+23435 Please see the match information. Older played for seven minutes in a game of a fully professional league. http://www.uslsoccer.com/scripts/runisa.dll?M2:gp::72011+Elements/Display+E+47107+Stats/+23529 Older played for 26 minutes in a game of a fully professional league. Do I need anything else to prove that he has played in a competitive match for those clubs? Please see cite #6 as well, in which Older was a part of a poll, which ranked the players on the basis of popularity. It was a pole of really competitive players (legends you can say), and only those would have got in who were actually playing the games (and were not just only reserves). Usmanwardag (talk) 19:12, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, those links don't mention Paulista, União São João or Portuguesa Santista matches in 1994 or 1998 (like the cited article does). No one is questioning whether Older played a few minutes for San Diego Gauchos in 2003, so please don't try to confuse the issue. Jogurney (talk) 20:08, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Jogurney

1) are you being misleading by saying a "few" minutes? if you read the ussoccerstats.us you'll see its not just a few
2) there are plenty of reliable, 3rd party news references listing the Brazil A, and Paulista A teams, stating he played there, I suggest you read them, they are even FEATURES talking only about the subject and thus also satisfying the WP:GNG rules
3) there is other wide coverage of the subject in other well respected and reliable news and magazine publications, they are listed too, I suggest you read them too
4) it appears you are focusing on diminishing my subject's career and his reputation by minimizing his notability by using words like few and amateur, when your statements are completely the opposite of exaggeration
5) you are the main man in the deletion campaign, having been trying for 6 years to get his article deleted and you use the same wording as Lionmans Account "few" and "amateur" when these have already been struck out by a Misplaced Pages admin C.fred.

Myself and a few other honest Misplaced Pages editors/authors are already suspicious as to why you are spending 6 years targeting this subject when thousands of less notable player articles exist.(I listed just a few but don't want to be on here all day copy/pasting lesser american soccer players. Just go look in the american soccer player listing here on Misplaced Pages. Why do you deny the rules of Misplaced Pages stating that a player is notable if having appeared in a fully professional league? and on and on and on... and you're saying the same thing as 6 years ago when you cleary muffed your first critique appearing to having not even read the new references. Your actions are beyond my belief, honestly.

Fussballspieler11 (talk) 20:30, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

NOTE this page was tampered with and changed today or yesterday and changes so that my links above don't go directly to the USL Pro Leagues anymore, but the USL Pro Leagues and the Brazil leagues, in which the subject is proven to have played, are still listed as fully professional.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues#Defunct_Leagues

Fussballspieler11 (talk) 18:07, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Got a diff (link to the specific edit) for that? I don't see any evidence of ELs or references changed in the last 24 hours. —C.Fred (talk) 18:39, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

My first reference is from a major news portal that has MOST COMPREHENSIVE LIVE SOCCER NEWS AND SCORES IN THE COUNTRY OF BRAZIL

I also want to let everyone know about the authority of my first reference. The news agency is called FUTEBOL INTERIOR. Most of you aren't familiar with Brazilian culture or sporting/soccer news so you will not know this source. But it is used often on Misplaced Pages as a source/reference. The translation is not "Indoor Soccer" like the machine translator at Google first says. It means "Inside Football" and it is a double entendre because it started out, over 10 years ago, only covering the area of the interior/inner parts of the Sao Paulo state of Brazil. Now it has global coverage, live chats, live scores, live game transmissions, columns, blogs, features, many expert soccer journalists from all parts of Brazil and the world. It's one of the best, if not the best place to get news about every major soccer team and league in Brazil.

Here is more about it from it's ABOUT page translated into English: (be sure to read the last line)

About Us

The Portal Inside Soccer is the most comprehensive of its kind, giving wide coverage to professional clubs from all over Brazil, as well as the world.

With over 10 years of existence, many new features are visible, such as hot sites and tools, providing information to the visitors so easier and attractive.

Great events of football, Brazil and the world, are also featured in most of the country Portal Football.

Between competitions disclosed, many exclusively, are: State (all), the Campeonato Brasileiro Serie A, B, C and D; Cup Brazil, South American Cup, Libertadores Cup, as well as major European Championships.

Another tool is the consolidated Score Live, the most comprehensive in the country, presenting results online (in real time) of all State (exclusive) and all major competitions involving clubs and the Brazilian national team. There are more than 18 million hits per month.

This service is also available on Mobile Systems and WAP (mobile), leading information and entertainment will at any time and where the Internet is.

With high quality journalistic content, Soccer Inside achieved credibility and opened new spaces for the news. And today, provides information for major newspapers and sports agencies in the country, besides being a source of research bodies throughout Brazil.

Here is a recent feature article that appeared for almost a week on their front page:

http://www.futebolinterior.com.br/news/259995+Ex-jogador_vira_empresario_e_comeca_a_ganhar_espaco_no_futebol

Fussballspieler11 (talk) 18:37, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Jogurney

1) are you being misleading by saying a "few" minutes? if you read the ussoccerstats.us you'll see its not just a few, there are multiple fully professional games listed at USL Pro soccer web site
2) there are plenty of reliable, 3rd party news references listing the Brazil A, and Paulista A teams, stating he played there, I suggest you read them, they are even FEATURES talking only about the subject and thus also satisfying the WP:GNG rules -> 1- futebol interior 3- Palos Verdes News 4- two professional team official blogs listing the Brazil A league 5- MANY other newspaper clippings from before the time of the Internet that were never available online so they dont come up in any searches
3) there is other wide coverage of the subject in other well respected and reliable news and magazine publications, they are listed too, I suggest you read them too there are also MANY other newspaper clippings from before the time of the Internet that were never available online so they dont come up in any searches
4) it appears you are focusing on diminishing my subject's career and his reputation by minimizing his notability by using words like few and amateur, when your statements are completely the opposite of exaggeration
5) you are the main man in the deletion campaign, having been trying for 6 years to get his article deleted and you use the same wording as Lionmans Account "few" and "amateur" when these have already been struck out by a Misplaced Pages admin C.fred.

Fussballspieler11 (talk) 20:30, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

'Comment' Claims like mr X played in the Brazilian Serie A can easily be verified/falsified using a database like this one . As you can see it goes back a very long time before there was such a thing as internet. Cattivi (talk) 21:27, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

No results. Giant Snowman 21:34, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

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