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Why

I didn't find anything about what was the cause...

I was just thinking that as I was reading the article. In college I took a class on the Holocaust, and over half of the semester was spent discussing the many causes of WWII, and, specifically, the Holocaust. I came to the talk page to suggest a causes section, but find someone else has already pointed out its absence. I may add a causes section later, but there are some problems with that. The article is already quite long, too long I think, and a lengthy discussion of the causes would not help it any. Moreover, I think there is a lot of stuff in the article that could be added, removed, or changed, to make this a much better article and that including a causes section is only one part of the massive amount of work that I see this article needing. Finally, to be quite frank and honest, it's a depressing subject and I'm not sure I want to put enough thought and effort into something so depressing as to really do a good job at it at this time in my life. However, this article is really not complete at all without SOME discussion of the causes. ONUnicorn 16:13, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Communist victims

About 100,000 communists were killed. There had been earlier attempts at sterilizing them using X-rays.

Please give a reliable source for this statement and an explanation, a) when, b) where, c) who exactly was killed d) by whom, e) where the sterilizing took place etc. To whom is the figure related to: prosecution of German communists before the war? Mass killing of soviet partisans, prisoners of war supposed to be communists after 1939? In both cases the figure seems wrong to me. Jesusfreund 18:56, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Scary how the run up to WWII in Germany is so eerily similar to the last few years here in the US. Patriot act anyone?

Holocaust Denial

This statement, "In short, the Holocaust deniers are hucksters that want to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge" may be true, but I'm wondering if it isn't NPOV. As I said, I agree with the statement, but it doesn't seem to fit in with the overall academic tone of the rest of the article. --Danahuff 01:52, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Hbackman 04:54, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. The sentence is a colloquialism (and a hackneyed one at that). It has no place in academic writing. Blastfromthepast 04:57, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Strong agreed. This is definitely unencyclopedic at best and does not need to be said in Misplaced Pages pages. Many Misplaced Pages pages suffer from conversational writing, as opposed to informational writing. The word "hucksters" is obviously not an accurate word in any situation. Miquonranger03

Date?

til recently, Germany refused to allow access to massive Holocaust-related archives located in Bad Arolsen due to, among other factors, privacy concerns. However, in May 2006 a 20-year effort by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum led to the announcement that 30-50 million pages would be made.... It is currently April 26th 2006? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.33.88.54 (talk • contribs) .

Good point. Can someone look up this date and fix it? Danahuff 23:10, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

World war two?

I am aware of the timeframe it occured in, and that it was carried out by the Nazis, but the Holocaust, as I understand it, is not otherwise related to World War 2. For example, would the Pentagon causualties in the 9/11 attacks be considered part of the WTC bombing casualties? Of course not! So I doubt wether it should be part of the world war 2 series.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.144.157.70 (talk • contribs) .

I would disagree. The Holocaust is often one of the first things that comes to mind when one thinks of WWII. I would also argue that though the causes of the war were complex and not solely related to the atrocities of the Holocaust, it is surely a major part of the war. I think it needs to remain a part of the WWII series. Danahuff 23:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I strongly disagree as well. The Holocaust is absolutely integral to WWII. The removal/elimination of the Jews was a central component of Hitler's war aims. Blastfromthepast 05:04, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Most of the victims of the Holocaust lived in areas that came under German control because of the war, and the Holocaust was ended by Germany's defeat in the war, so they can hardly be considered separately. JanSöderback 19:10, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Some statistics

I would like to read some informed comments on this professors work. Is it reliable? Can it and its sources be used for Misplaced Pages articles?

Democide and Genocide

What say yee? One excerpt:

No one knows or can give the precise democide figure. Probably even that for the Jewish Holocaust is wrong. Experts who have painfully sifted through the Nazi archives, extensively interviewed survivors, and taken detailed depositions of witnesses have been unable to agree among themselves on the final total. In his thoroughly documented and comprehensive work, Raul Hilberg concluded that 5,100,000 Jews died;8 based on her detailed country-by-country analysis Lucy Dawidowicz arrived at a figure of 5,933,900 annihilated.9 Gerald Reitlinger calculated the toll at 4,204,400 to 4,575,400 Jews.10 Taking all such studies into account and making his own calculations for his Atlas of the Holocaust, Martin Gilbert arrived at a total of just over 5,750,000 deaths.11 In the latest such work, the appendix to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, Israel Gutman and Robert Rozett estimated total losses at from 5,596,029 to 5,860,129.12

Just among these five thorough studies of the available evidence and statistics, the variation from the lowest to the highest figure is 41 percent. This is for a genocide carefully administered by a regime that was better than most about keeping records and statistics, whose surviving archives and secrets were completely available after the Nazi defeat, and about which there has been for nearly half a century many historians dedicated to uncovering the truth. If then the estimate of the Jewish Holocaust can vary so much, we should hardly expect to get the true figure on other genocides or mass murder; nor, of course, the overall democide.

The statistical problem is clear, if not easily resolvable. It is how to determine within some range of error the most likely Nazi democide, given different published estimates, different kinds of killing, different events, and different time periods. The approach has to be one of reasonable approximation. This involves successively narrowing the range of estimates to what a hypothetical, reasonable analyst would arrive at from the available information, and then defining within this range a prudent figure that somewhat reflects the central thrust of the statistics and historical events.

Stor stark7 22:43, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

What was the Jewish population of the affected areas of Europe just prior to the war? I have read that the entire Jewish population was about six millionm so this argues that virtually ALL European Jews died in WWII, which is clearly not the case. Many came to the US, many fled to Russia, and many started over in Israel. Anybody have the numbers? 69.109.122.251 23:19, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

See Examination of Holocaust denial#Jewish population for a detailed discussion of this. Seems to be around ten million. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 02:49, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but the discussion you linked doesn't really provide any authority to the European population and relies on some unsourced Nazi estimate. The discussion you refer to mainly deals with world population numbers. It must be easy to find out the population figures for Europe circa 1939. 69.109.124.59 14:28, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The number of Serbian victims are overblown

• "The exact number of war victims in Yugoslavia during World War II may never be known due to fifty years of intentional disinformation by the Yugoslavian and Serbian governments, Serbian exile groups, and others. However, it is likely that approximately one million people of all nationalities died of war-related causes in all of Yugoslavia during World War II and that as many as 125,000 Serbs died of war-related causes in Croatia during the War. The question of war losses during World War II represents the most divisive, heated and emotional issue among all of the nationalities of the former Yugoslavia during the post-War period. The bloody multi-sided War in Yugoslavia involved the German, Italian, Ustashe, Partisan, Domobran, White Guard, Slovenian Guard and at least four different; Cetnik armies. The multifaceted war pitted Serbs against Serbs, Croatians against Croatians, Serbs against Croatians, and Serbian Orthodox against Catholics and Muslims. The loss of life was heavy and difficult to document. As the war progressed and even long after the war ended, the mythology of the numbers of victims continued to grow ".

• "More conservative and realistic estimates demonstrate that Montenegrins suffered the highest wartime losses (10.4% of the population),

followed by Serbs (6.9%), Bosnian Moslems (6.8%), and then Croats (5.4%).53 However, these overall percentages do not give the complete picture as the majority of Serbian losses occurred on the territory of the Independent State of Croatia (16.3% in Croatia; 14.6% in Bosnia).54 According to a leading Croat demographer, when those Serbs who died in combat and/or asìcollaborationistsî are taken out of the picture, the ethnic Serb victims of ìfascist terrorî on the territory of the Independent State of Croatia number 217,000, i.e., somewhere on the order of one fifth of Yugoslaviaís total wartime losses (estimated at lying somewhere between 950,000 and little above one million).55 Here, apparently, the tradition of Croat ìintegrationismî did little to live up to its historical promise, as the ethnic violence unleashed against Serbian civilians as- sumed a grotesquely brutal character. Undoubtedly, significant atrocities were visited upon others as well, and especially on Bosnian Moslems by Serbian Chetnik forces.56 Nevertheless, it is obvious that ìgreater Serbian chauvinismî was hardly the sole culprit in the story of twentieth- century Yugoslav ethnic victimization. " pp 14 -15

• "he Yugoslav losses represent 34%, thus more than a third of all allied losses.”4

The number of war losses was officially set at 1.7 million, a figure which, as we shall see, has later been the cause of much debate. There was no attempt at internal reconciliation, as all guilt of war crimes and suffering was laid on the occupying powers and the so-called collaborationists: primarily the Croatian Ustaša regime, The Serbian Chetnik movement led by Draža Mihailović, and Serbia’s pro-Nazi administrators. The stigmatisation of traitors and collaborators was elaborated and widely published, as was the case with the reports of the trial against Bishop Stepinac and other representatives of the Catholic Church in Croatia and that against Draža Mihailović and other Chetnik leaders, who were collectively found guilty of national treason and numerous “crimes against the peoples”, amongst this mass murder, massacres, and torture in concentration camps.5 " , pp2

• "With regard to the Serbs, Žerjavić's calculation ended with a total of 197,000 Serbian civilian victims on the territory of the Independent State of Croatia: 50,000 in the Jasenovac concentration camp, 45,000 killed by the Germans, 34,000 civilians killed in battles between Ustashas, Chetniks and Partisans, 28,000 killed in prisons, pits and other camps, etc. Another 125,000 Serbian people from NDH were killed as combatants, raising the total to 322,000.

Most international agencies have accepted Žerjavić's (and Bogoljub Kočović's) calculations as the most reliable data on war losses in Yugoslavia during WW2. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum reports:

"Due to differing views and lack of documentation, estimates for the number of Serbian victims in Croatia range widely, from 25,000 to more than one million. The estimated number of Serbs killed in Jasenovac ranges from 25,000 to 700,000. The most reliable figures place the number of Serbs killed by the Ustaša between 330,000 and 390,000, with 45,000 to 52,000 Serbs murdered in Jasenovac." A notable exception still seems to be the Simon Wiesenthal Center."

Miroslav Filipović was a Catholic friar

Well Miroslav Filipović was excommunicated from the Catholic church, and the main article states he was a Catholic friar, which in the sentence claims he was at the time he was the head of the conc camp. Well Stalin was in a school to become an orthodox priest... This reference needs to be modifed, it has no relevance. The Serbian Orthodox church was active in the killing of Jews in Serbia, Serbs murdered 40k Jews, Belgrade was Judenfrei.. what about that.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 60.227.1.53 (talk • contribs) .

Croatophobia

Looks like this is a rather infectious disease, attacking mainly Serbian populace whose immune system has been down due to the long exposure to Greater Serbian intense radiation causing, among other things, malignant mental disturbances. Keywords: ustaše, Jasenovac concentration camp, Ante Pavelić,...Possible antidote(s): Vladimir Žerjavić, long solitary walks in the clear air..Mir Harven 16:57, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Night

I you have read the book NIGHT you have seen how the Jews were treated then and there. Well Hitler was a very cruel man and did not know anything about the Jews, he just wanted them dead. And he got his wish by having the Nazis work them to death. But, thankfully, some had survive and very few still live today. I wish I could meet Elie Wiesel. I liked the book he wrote. It's very heart warming. Thanks Elie. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.253.231.203 (talk • contribs) 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Please restrict your comments at Talk pages to discussing the content of the article and see WP:NOT. Thank you. ←Humus sapiens 07:55, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Image:Dora Mittelbau Mass grave.jpg

I saw this image at army.mil, and it therefor is in the public domain, so I uploaded it to wikipedia. I'm sure someone who is more of an expert on the various articles relating to the holocaust can find a use for it. Cornell Rockey 14:01, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Merge?

My memory says that Endlösung was the German term for what has become known as the Holocaust. Therefore, AFAIK the Holocaust was the effectuation of the ideas presentaed as Endlösung. Shouldn't we merge the two articles and describe this more accurately? Nomen Nescio 12:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello Nomen, please read the definitions at the beginning of both articles. Their topics are quite different. Regards, gidonb 12:47, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Many Holocausts in History: The term "the Holocaust" is not truly an accurate term. There were hundreds of holocausts in history, the term the 'last Holocaust' is a more accurate description of the "the holocaust", or a better term would be the Nazi holocaust. The Holocaust implies that there was only one holocaust in history... This is not accurate. The word holocaust comes from the latin word holocaustum (spelling is not correct), to holocaust(reference ommitted). This is a very old term. It is extremely important to be aware that several holocausts exist in history, the nazi holocaust was not original, it was only the largest scale. Another 20th century holocaust occured in Turkey in the 1910's.

• That's why the article is called "The Holocaust" rather than "Holocaust". "The Holocaust" is generally used to refer to the Nazi Holocaust, as opposed to the other disasters. It might be unfair to the memory of (say) the Armenian genocide, but it is the way the word is used; hence, it's the title of the article. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 17:14, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

That's nonsense there have been other cases of genocide but there has been only one holocaust - the Nazi persecution of the Jews. Though this is probably not a good term since it means "burnt sacrificial offering" - personally I'm not convinced that that is at all an appropriate word to describe the Nazi genocide of the Jews & others. "Shoah" would be better but given that "Holocaust" has gained widespread acceptance amongst the public it's probably too late to change. Roydosan 09:09, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Starting a new article?

There has been some sentiment that the article is getting too long, a sentiment I share. How would authors / editors feel if we were to address this? My own sense is that section 8 on interpretations could be moved with benefit into its own article, and developed further from there. That would keep the focus on The Holocaust in the present article. (The same move is one I would recommend were the final sections--on art and the Holocaust, etc.--to be beefed up a little. These are all important, further topics that a reader of "The Holocaust" would likely want to continue with that seem to deserve their own space and place, and that contribute to less focus on The Holocaust itself in a lengthy article. --raw

Category:Anti-Semitic people

Vote They are attempting to close the +cat AGAIN, please vote to KEEP. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SirIsaacBrock (talk • contribs) 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Article too long, (but I am a hypocrite)

I agree that this article has become to long, but just added to the problem in the Obedience section by sighting references to the "experiments" conducted by Jane_Elliott and Ron Jones (The_Third_Wave).

The psychological reasons or explanations for the blind obedience to such horrific actions could be a section all to itself, and could be eliminated as a link to Mob_psychology if the Mob_psychology stub were expanded by some experts (which I am not).

I added the Jane Elliott and Third Wave experiments to the Obedience section because both experiments are relatively recent, try to answer the perplexing obedience question, and when I saw these experiments as films they sent a chill down my spine.

ALSO... As Roydosan points out, there are many Holocausts in history. This article should probably be re-titled. I have difficulty however with "The Nazi Holocaust" or some other name. This is difficult because if you call it the "Nazi" or "Arian Holocaust" then you emphasize the people responsible for the Holocaust in the title. If you call it "The Jewish Holocaust" then you exclude the other victims.

the article has proper title THE Holocaust. Please, sign your contribution. -- tasc _deeds 07:59, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

PURE EVIL

There should be NO controversy whatsoever that the killing and torture of millions of innocent people was PURE EVIL. The Holocaust HAS to be one of, if not THE worst, events conducted in the history of man. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.43.73.73 (talk • contribs) 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Endemic vs. epidemic

Minor change, but "endemic" means the exact opposite of its usage on the caption for the picture of the child dying in the street (ie. specific to a particular group, or as in a species existing in one region and nowhere else in the world). Meant to explain that in the edit, but accidentally hit Enter too soon. MoriyaMug 20:58, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

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