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Revision as of 13:08, 22 July 2013 editNorth8000 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers84,160 edits →Sentence about who is promoting labeling laws and why / Agent Orange← Previous edit Revision as of 16:42, 22 July 2013 edit undoFiremylasers (talk | contribs)42 edits →HR 933 section seems out of place and overtly biased: new sectionNext edit →
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Sincerely, <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 12:55, 22 July 2013 (UTC) Sincerely, <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 12:55, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

== HR 933 section seems out of place and overtly biased ==

I'm not sure why the HR 933 section exists, it seems like an odd thing to have its own subsection. Furthermore the paragraph only presents the ''opinion'' of one "Dave Murphy", who appears to be an activist. Doesn't this violate WP:SOAPBOX? And why does HR933 need its own section when it already has a bullet point? Also shouldn't the "HR 933" in the bullet point be linked to the ]? I just don't see how posting Murphy's opinions on the matter helps the article's balance. Sure, it's the opinion held by many of the protestors, but they seem to have opinions just as if not more detailed on the other bullet points - why were those not expanded too? ] (]) 16:42, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

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Response

On May 16, commenting on petitions submitted to the USDA opposing applications by Monsanto and Dow to test new GM crops, Monsanto's CEO Hugh Grant stated the petitioners wanted to block others from choosing more affordable food options.

Nowhere does any source cited say this and I've asked Jytdog and others to stop adding this. Hugh Grant was not commenting on petitions submitted to the USDA, he was commenting on social media. Unless Jytdog is in personal close contact with the CEO of Monsanto, I would be curious why he and others keep altering the quotes and changing the context. Grant did not say anything about petitioners to Kaskey, and he paraphrsed it as "The advent of social media helps explain why many people in the U.S. have come to oppose genetically engineered crops in recent years". Nothing about petitioners. Viriditas (talk) 10:41, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Regarding quotations

"I became increasingly angry every time I would go to the grocery store and spend a small fortune to ensure I wasn't feeding my family poison", she recalled... "Companies like Kellogg's and General Mills are putting things like Fruit Loops on the market that are basically 100 percent genetically engineered ingredients," Canal told Salt Lake City Weekly. "And that's marketed to our kids."

I removed the following quote because it gives undue weight to the opinion of one person compared with the broad scientific consensus: 'I became increasingly angry every time I would go to the grocery store and spend a small fortune to ensure I wasn't feeding my family poison'(my emphasis). I have no doubt that Canal said this and genuinely believes it but putting, 'feeding my family poison' in the article, even if balanced by pro-GE quotes, gives undue weight to the extreme fringe view that GE foods are poison.

The same argument applies my general practice of replacing quotes with indirect speech. They give excessive prominence to fringe views. There is nothing at all wrong with my changes, especially as the strong opinions are correctly attributed. At least two other editors have agree with what I have done; you seem to be the only one who objects.

This page has already come under criticism for promoting fringe views and it was even proposed for deletion on that basis. Had I been around at that time, I would have opposed deletion but supported the majority view that this page must not become a promotional article for fringe science. It is fair enough to briefly give the reasons that the organisers started the movement but we are not here to support their cause. Giving their fringe views equal weight to mainstream science and the welfare of the majority of consumers is a very clear violation of WP:due.

It is also my opinion, supported by some others, that this page should not just refrain from promoting fringe science but that it is not the pace to have the GE vs anti-GE debate. We already have a page for that purpose. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:44, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

There is no such scientific consensus about genetically modified organisms. Evidence of consensus is scant; evidence of dissensus abounds. Appeals regarding content on this page should not invoke a fictional consensus. groupuscule (talk) 11:06, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
Your "argument" in that page has no basis here, as it's simply your opinion and does not reflect the real-world consensus in play. Thargor Orlando (talk) 14:19, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
groupuscule (talk) 05:46, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Your argument is flawed. The quote you removed has nothing to do with "giving undue weight to the opinion of one person compared with the broad scientific consensus." In fact, it has nothing to do with any "broad scientific consensus" at all. The quote has to do with Canal's reasoning for starting the movement. That she believes that she was feeding her family poison is her opinion and her rationale. Quoting her reasons for starting the movement does not give "undue weight to the extreme fringe view that GE foods are poison", nor could it. Furthermore, your argument for replacing quotes isn't reflected by your edits. You inaccurately replaced direct quotes to things that did not give "excessive prominence to fringe views", such as the statement from Monsanto Hawaii, the CEO of Monsanto, Canal's reason for starting the movement, a protester's reason for organizing, official statements from Monsanto, and more. None of these things "give excessive prominence to fringe views". Most of your changes are problematic as detailed in this thread and above at Talk:March_Against_Monsanto#Quotes_removed, where other editors do not agree with your changes as you claim. There is quite a bit wrong with your edits, and I will now ask you for a second time to stop changing quotations. Your last series of edits introduced plagiarism when you removed the attribution and the quotes themselves. Finally, your removal of Canal's quotes isn't supported, and your stated reason for removing them ("emotive") shows that you are confused about how we use quotes. Those quotes represent her POV. We don't neutralize the POV of a person we are quoting. There are fundamental problems with your edits here. Viriditas (talk) 10:44, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps we could hear what others think. My opinion is that putting a quotation stating the extreme fringe view, that GE foods are poison, gives the view undue prominence on the page and in WP. Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:08, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
Earlier I said that at a glance your changes looked OK however it seems that with closer inspection as outlined by Viriditas it seems that in at least several instances the edits were not acceptable. And as has been said repeatedly Martin, we do not edit articles for our personal version of the "truth". For instance, if Reverand xxx says that women get raped because they don't dress properly, that's what we quote them as saying regardless of our own views. Gandydancer (talk) 21:03, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
There's a lot to comment on here. First, about the material that was on Martin's talk page, it would have been polite to either link from here to the talk page, or ask Viriditas before copying it here, but Viriditas should know that the terms of use, right above the save edit button, allow anything one writes to be copied anywhere else.
This is not the place to have arguments about whether or not opposition to GMOs is fringe science, or whether GMOs are poison.
Overall, I think most of Martin's edits have been helpful, but I'm becoming increasingly convinced that we should go more in the direction of using direct quotes of Canal, because of her special role in the subject of this page. If we directly quote her, then Misplaced Pages is not taking a position about her opinions about GMOs as "poison", and it's appropriate to indicate her beliefs and motivations. We can link to other pages in lieu of refuting her here.
I do not regard Martin's edits as introducing plagiarism.
About the specific edits for which Viriditas provides links, taking them one-by-one: I don't see any problems with the one about Monsanto Hawaii's statement. About the Monsanto CEO, I already commented at #Quotes removed. About Canal, I also commented above, and I'd be inclined to bring the direct quote back. About the Los Angeles march organizer, I'm neutral between the quote and the paraphrase, and I don't see any distortion of the meaning in the paraphrase. About Monsanto's official statements, ditto. About "According to the AP", it doesn't rise to the level of plagiarism, but I'd be inclined to either restore the explicit attribution or to insert the word "reportedly" into "Some people are reportedly concerned...", with the inline cite at the end of the sentence. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:31, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
Agree with this rationale for using direct quotations. Paraphrasing can be useful for efficiency's sake, but in this case (subbed in to replace a one-liner) seems mostly to muddy the waters. groupuscule (talk) 05:46, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
I do not object to all quotes but I think that the article as it was looked like a debate on GE food between Canal and Monsanto. I see two problems with this, firstly this is not the place for such a debate; we have an article on the subject. More importantly though, it gives legitimacy to an extreme fringe view (that GE foods are poison) and also gives the impression that the generally accepted view is only that of Monsanto.
I would not object to one or two quotes from Canal, but only in a context that does not give them prominence or legitimacy and also makes it absolutely clear to the reader that we are giving the words of a person with an extreme fringe view. I cannot see how we can do this, which is why I thought we should remove the quotes. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:24, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Good, that's fair, and that's progress, I think. Where you say that you cannot see how to do that, I can make a suggestion, using the quote at the top of this talk thread as an example. What Canal says there is, indeed, a view reflecting a particular POV. However, a direct quote makes it clear that she, not Misplaced Pages, is saying it. The problem you describe then becomes how to put what she says in context, without us taking a POV and without having a coatrack of arguments. I would suggest something like: "Talking about her personal motivations for starting the movement, Canal said '....'". Lead into the quote like that, and make it particularly clear that this is what she said. Have hatnotes directing readers to the pages where the GMO controversies are covered in detail. Keep reporting here what Monsanto has said in its responses. (I don't know if there are responses from sources other than Monsanto, but it would be worth looking for ones that specifically address the March.) That will work. This page is about a movement started by people who have a point of view, and there's no getting around the fact that this page will tell our readers what that point of view is. Maybe somebody will read her quote, decide to believe her literally, and not read anything more. There's nothing we can do about that, and it's not Misplaced Pages's job. But anyone who reads the whole page, including the Monsanto responses, and who goes on to look at the other pages we link to, will have access to enough information to draw an informed conclusion. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:15, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
I could go with something like that for one or two quotes only but I do not think we should try to balance Canal's fringe opinion with Monsanto quotes. That gives her view legitimacy and makes it look as though only Monsanto support GE food. I think we should do all we can to prevent any possible misunderstanding that Canal's view is that of WP. One problem is that putting the full quote, "I became increasingly angry every time I would go to the grocery store and spend a small fortune to ensure I wasn't feeding my family poison", gives too much prominence to her opinion and I cannot see how we could reduce it and still retain the sense. We could actually do better with indirect speech along the lines of, 'Canal stated that she considered GE foods to be poison'. What would you suggest? Martin Hogbin (talk) 22:44, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
I agree with you that we shouldn't have a point-counterpoint between Canal and Monsanto. I simply meant that Monsanto's perspective should continue to be included on the page, not necessarily right after each quote from Canal. For the reasons that I already said, my suggestion about the Canal quote is to use the quote, but presented in the way that I said. There is no problem with her view appearing to be Misplaced Pages's view if we do it this way. In this case, I would not paraphrase. Better to encompass all that she said: the increasing anger, the small fortune, etc. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:26, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
There has been no "point counterpoint between Canal and Monsanto" anywhere on this page. Judging by this discussion, there is support for adding the quotes back in. Viriditas (talk) 02:23, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
No, the point-counterpoint seems to be, instead, on this talk page. I didn't say that there was one on the page. I said that there need not be one. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:10, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Have you restored the quotes? Viriditas (talk) 01:06, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
Do you not know the answer to your own question? Please feel free to restore them yourself, and know that I will support your doing so, as long as it's consistent with what I have said here.--Tryptofish (talk) 19:53, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
I would prefer to skip the song, dance, and dinner, and get right down to business. Please make the changes so I don't have to figure out what is consistent with what you have said. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 02:21, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
Too bad, since if you bothered to read what I wrote in this talk section, you'd find that I agreed with you about half of the time. When you asked me to read the archives, I did. Whatever. I promise not to invite you to dinner or dancing, but I don't react well to being ordered to do something, since I'm a volunteer like everyone else. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:27, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
There appears to be a pattern of reading comprehension problems here. I have not ordered you to do anything. I have asked you to make your preferred changes so that I don't have to attempt to read your mind. You seem to be completely unwilling to explicitly say which quotes should go back in and which should be removed, so I've repeatedly asked you to make those changes. I don't see any problem with this statement, do you? Viriditas (talk) 00:29, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Viriditas' assertions of consensus

I have a few minor concerns following Viriditas' blanket reversions of my recent edits, which she or he has justified as based in talk page consensus. As I read the comments above, it seems that multiple editors have suggested that this page, as it exists, too closely resembles promotional material. I strongly agree. Viriditas has been the most frequent and vociferous opponent to these comments, but I wonder if Viriditas' opinions really equate with consensus. Observations:

  1. The "March" was a march, a defined, discrete event. While the founder may hope that it turns into a true movement, and while this may eventually happen, there hasn't been enough time or evidence to establish this. The Misplaced Pages article should present what has happened, not what we hope will happen in the future.
  2. Editors have objected to "grassroots" and other designations ("full time mother of two"?), which seem to be inserted to imply that the good, simple people of America have had enough and are standing up to the evil corporations. Is the continuing presence of such language encyclopedic?
  3. My reading of Misplaced Pages policy is that the scientific consensus must be underlined when we present fringe topics. Anti-GMO events are truly fringe from a scientific and thus a Wikipedian perspective. This is not a slur or a reflection on numbers. Even if a majority of the American public believe that God created the world in six days or that a particular biotech is trying to surreptitiously poison unwitting Whole Foods customers, the Misplaced Pages definition of fringe is opposition to a well established and verifiable scientific consensus. The article should include a statement about the broad international consensus, and the sources for this statement do not need to address the May 25, 2013 event specifically. In contrast, the article is replete with material that is off-topic or of questionable relevance other than to promote the March organizer or suggest that her views are on an equal footing with scientific consensus. SpectraValor (talk) 02:32, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Your points have been discussed extensively and at great lengths. There is nothing fringe in this article and the scientific consensus is well established with sources about the subject. Please consult this talk page or the archives for further information. I am, of course, happy to very briefly review the finer points of those discussions with you. As far as I can tell, you are attempting to restore the failed arguments of Thargor Orlando, who did not get consensus for his edits. I will chalk that up to a coincidence. As for your points:
  1. Movement. This point has been discussed ad nauseum in the thread Talk:March_Against_Monsanto/Archive_3#US bias? Every angle of the discussion was addressed. You are now trying to reopen this argument with a straw man, defining the movement as a single discrete march. However, the sources define it as a movement based on accepted sociological definitions of organized activity that involve more than one geographical location, not more than one march. In other words, this topic is appropriately defined as a global movement per the sources and the accepted definitions in use.
  2. Grassroots. You say that editors have objected to this term because of its implications, however the sources have described it as an "international grass roots movement". Grassroots in this topic area refers to ""ordinary people regarded as the main body of an organization's membership". This is covered in the above linked discussion.
  3. Scientific consensus. You have attempted to re-open several discussions covered in depth at Talk:March Against Monsanto/Archive 2, all of which concluded that 1) there is nothing "fringe" in the current version that needs attention, and 2) the scientific consensus is adequately and accurately presented in its proper context using sources about the subject. As it stands, the article currently says, "The U.S. government and scientists maintain that GMOs are safe for consumption, but those wishing to avoid them have advocated for mandatory GMO labeling laws" and "Genetically modified crops are the most tested and regulated crops, and the scientific consensus about their safety is overwhelming."
  4. Off topic or irrelevant material. You've claimed that the current version "is replete with material that is off-topic or of questionable relevance other than to promote the March organizer or suggest that her views are on an equal footing with scientific consensus." I can see no part of this current version that reflects this view. Perhaps you will be so kind as to provide examples.
I believe that covers everything. If you are still interested in proposing your edits, simply choose one to start with and add it here below so we can discuss it. Viriditas (talk) 04:42, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure how many more people need to disagree with you on this, Viriditas. I'm surprised this is being argued again as well. Thargor Orlando (talk) 13:59, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Thargor, there is no support for these edits, which coincidentally, restore your edits which were found to lack consensus and violate our policies. You cannot add original research to this article. End of story. We've discussed this extensively in the archives, and there was no support for your violation of policy. Viriditas (talk) 01:05, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

While I do agree with Viriditas on some of the above points, I think that the article is biased towards promoting the views of the protestors. The main mechanism for this is by becoming too much of a coatrack/vehicle for making their argument, via too much of (the sum of) repeating their talking points, spun wording, views and characterizations of things. Also via selection of wording. As one example of many, the name used in the lead to identify a portion of a law was the derogatory name/description created by the protestors. North8000 (talk) 10:08, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

That "name" is the one referred to the most in our best reliable sources. There is nothing promotional about it. It's the most common name for the law in relation to this topic. I cannot possibly see how not best representing our sources is an option. Viriditas (talk) 01:05, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
I basically agree with North, and I made an edit about the "Monsanto Protection Act" to not present it in Misplaced Pages's voice. I hope that at least that will be noncontroversial. Regarding scientific consensus, I agree with the changes that were made by SpectraValor in the GMO controversy section. For the lead, I agree with Viriditas about "grassroots" and "movement". For me, what's left after that are the numbers of participants, and I have already stated what I think we should do with that. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:40, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
The use of the term "Monsanto Protection Act" is entirely inline with our sources. I am not all that concerned with your changes if the sources support them. As for the changes made by SpectraValor, we have previously discussed this when Thargor Orlando tried to add the same edits over and over and over again last month—against consensus. We cannot add original research to this or any other article which is exactly what this is—sources collected by editors that have nothing to do with this subject. The scientific POV is already well represented in this article from sources about the subject. This is very clear and has been extensively discussed. Thargor Orlando's continuous violation of our policies is a problem that needs to be dealt with. The fact that "SpectraValor" showed up out of the blue to restore these problematic edits and policy violations while subsequently having Thargor Orlando appear out of nowhere to restore them once again, shows that we've got a more serious problem at work. Viriditas (talk) 01:07, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
Obvious teamwork is obvious. It's why I quit editing ths article and will not get involved with the GMO issue on wikipedia. petrarchan47tc 01:13, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
As I said to Viriditas on my talk page: No, that isn't rule (policy or guideline) so you are in error. And no, it isn't wp:or because it is wp:suitably sourced. So you are wrong on both counts. I am more concerned about a good process for such changes (vs. the huge bundle that you just dropped) than any end result, so if you could just unbundle and discuss, I think that things would go much better. Interestingly, I think that my POV is the same as yours on this, but as always, when we enter as editors we need to check such that at the door and so 50% of my "disputes" are with people who are promoting my POV. That is our duty as editors in wikipedia. North8000 (talk) 01:27, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
You are totally confused about how original research works. Original research can be "suitably sourced", and most often is! Have you actually read the policy?

...you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented...Even with well-sourced material, if you use it out of context, or to advance a position not directly and explicitly supported by the source, you are engaging in original research

None of the sources in question have anything to do with this subject, and even worse, the AP source that accurately represented this section was removed! This is not acceptable. We don't remove reliable secondary sources about a subject and replace them with off-topic, editor-chosen sources that are about a different subject! I am simply flabbergasted that an editor of your standing doesn't know this. Viriditas (talk) 01:37, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
I wish that what you are implying (a degree-of-relevancy requirement for content) were true, but it isn't. Your construction was pretty creative (those three dots represent half the policy, not shortening of a sentence). The first part was putting forth a sourcing requirement for material and so does not establish a relevancy requirement for material. The second was referring to a juxtoposition of material to create a statement that was not in either of the sources. In any event, I'm in agreement with getting /keeping GMO debate material out of the article. The problem is that too much of the talking points of the anti-GMO has been put in via the mechanisms described above. North8000 (talk) 13:13, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
Excuse me? There was nothing "creative" about this quote from policy and both are applicable. The sources were not related to the topic of this article and were being used out of context. It is not allowed, end of discussion. You're not going to wiggle out of this one. Viriditas (talk) 00:49, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
At some point, Viritidas, you're going to have to stop with the veiled attacks on other editors. Nothing in the talk history pushes against the point of the fringe guideline which you continually violate here, and it's hard for me, who has been engaged on this page for months now, to "come out of nowhere." If you can't justify your edits within guideline and policy, they're going to be removed. It's that simple. Thargor Orlando (talk) 15:14, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
I'm not on their "team", but I pretty much agree with Thargor and North. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:54, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
Above, we are told that the issues about scientific consensus were settled at Talk:March Against Monsanto/Archive 2. I've gone back and looked for where there was supposedly an editorial consensus that the sources involved original research by editors. What I could find was Talk:March Against Monsanto/Archive 2#Report on sources for "broad scientific consensus". That doesn't even come close to representing either an editorial consensus or a demonstration of original research, except to the extent that the so-called "report" disputing the scientific consensus appears to be OR. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:47, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
About: , I also recently fixed some format errors, and the most recent revert of the scientific consensus material added the errors back: . I'm quite willing to fix errors of that sort, but it seems to me that if someone is going to do a big reversion, they could be careful enough to fix any errors that they, themselves, have re-introduced. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:56, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
Question to those reverting the language back: why is it so important to keep bringing back the word "American" in the first sentence (referring to where Monsanto is)? After all, the rest of the sentence gives the specific location. Is it just easier to hit the revert link? --Tryptofish (talk) 20:59, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
It might sound strange to US but not everybody in this world knows where this location supposed to be. We're writing for an international audience, remember? Thanks.TMCk (talk) 21:24, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
OK, it's not a big enough deal for me to really care about, but it doesn't seem that difficult to me to click on the link to the city. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:58, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
Just clarifying "teams" I think that my real-world POV on this matches that of Viriditas, (I don't like GMO's) but we check that at the door when put on our wp editor hat. The article should not be a soapbox for promoting the anit-GMO view. North8000 (talk) 21:04, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
I better clarify that I was alluding to what petrarchan47tc said about "obvious teamwork". --Tryptofish (talk) 23:58, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
This article is not about a minority view but about the march and is simply just not the place to argue for or against GMO's, (besides the points made directly in response to the march of course.)TMCk (talk) 21:31, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the format fixing, much appreciated! I agree with you that we should not be coat-racking here, but I also want to make sure that what we do say here is NPOV. And, as much as mistrust of GMOs is very much mainstream in culture and politics, the scientific consensus really is pretty overwhelming. Therefore, I think that we need to get back to the main question at hand. I went back and read the archived discussions. I don't see an established consensus for the wording on the page, and I don't see a explanation of why the language that you reverted is original research. The closest thing to an explanation is that the cited sources did not relate to the subject of the page. I've gone back and looked more carefully at those sources. You are right that one of them had been malformatted, resulting in a cite error message, but they all seem to me to be reliable sources about GMOs. If the argument is that they are about GMOs but not about the March, then I think that's a false argument. The sentence that they support is about the safety or non-safety of GMOs, and they are directed at that. It's appropriate for this page to devote a few sentences to that, because the claims against GMOs are central to the reasons for the March. We should present what Canal et al. believe, but we must keep our presentation of their views in compliance with WP:FRINGE with respect to the science, as mainstream as they may be in politics and culture. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:58, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
There's also the continued concern of fringe viewpoints being introduced which is a constant problem, if you check the archives here. Thargor Orlando (talk) 01:53, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
I've checked the archives, and you've repeatedly made this false claim without any evidence whatsover. So, again, I will ask you, what fringe viewpoints are being introduced that are problematic? None, you say? Viriditas (talk) 02:20, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
The ones about the lack of safety of GMO foods in particular, although the weight of the fringe viewpoint regarding media coverage continues to be a problem as well. I'm more concerned with the science on this specific issue of fringe viewpoints. Thargor Orlando (talk) 13:50, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
See! You can't quote a single word, phrase, or sentence from this article because there isn't anything fringe in it! You've been asked over and over again, and all you do is cite your opinion, not the article. Either you don't understand what you read or you just can't support your claims. Perhaps both. Viriditas (talk) 00:46, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
Sorry to interrupt you two having fun about what the archives did or didn't say, but I'd like to get back to what the archives definitely did not say: a consensus against the content introduced by SpectraValor, or an explanation of why that content involved original research. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:33, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
Excuse me, I just answered both of these questions in my initial reply to this thread. Is there a reason you are asking me to repeat myself? Look for the bold wording up above. It is very CLEAR. Viriditas (talk) 00:46, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Recent deletions

Recently, an editor removed the following information from the article as "tangential":

Two days before the group held the May 25 protest, the U.S. Senate rejected an amendment that would allow states to require labeling of genetically modified foods.

I fail to see how this information is "tangential". The entire protest movement is based on the lack of labeling laws, and the rejection of this amendment was one of the things protesters were upset about it. I admit that this can be rewritten and expanded, but based on the sources, I cannot see any good reason for its removal. Viriditas (talk) 05:18, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I removed it. Three days before the protests there was a full moon. So? While the Senate may have done something, how did that impact the protests? What does the source say about the Senate's action upon the protests? Did the protestors say something about this? (Yes, I repeat myself, repeat myself, repeat myself.) Until the connection is made -- independently by WP:RS -- the info is tangential. – S. Rich (talk) 05:32, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
The connection was made independently by RS. You removed them. Not to worry, however, there are many more that make the connection as well. I think this was just a mistake on your part, however, I do see it as an opportunity to improve and expand the text. Viriditas (talk) 05:41, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
The material I removed simply says "Two days before the group held the May 25 protest, the ] rejected an amendment that would allow states to require labeling of genetically modified foods.<ref name="RT-eve"/>" This implies a connection between the rejected amendment and the protests. You've got to add something from the RS like "and the protestors carried signs denouncing the Senate rejection...." that actually makes a connection between the Senate action and the protests. The removal was not a mistake on my part. It was taking out improper WP:SYN. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Srich32977 (talk • contribs) 05:31, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
The source you removed is titled, "On the eve of March against Monsanto Senate shoots down GMO labeling bill", and explicitly makes the connection between the two events. This refers to amendment 965 of the Agriculture Reform, Food, and Jobs Act of 2013 (S. 954; 113th Congress) proposing the labeling of GMOs. Multiple news sources make the connection, and even Bernie Sanders himself, the man who proposed the labeling bill, makes the connection in interviews with the media and on his own website. Viriditas (talk) 10:28, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
As Upton made the observation and connection between the Senate action & the march, the RT reference is back in the article at that point. It serves to support what Upton said. – S. Rich (talk) 15:30, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
I think the end result of these edits is an improvement. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:56, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

More soapboxing removed.

I have removed some excessive anti-Monsanto quotes from the article as these give undue weight to a minority opinion. Martin Hogbin (talk) 10:07, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Actually, not they don't, and you've been previously corrected in your erroneous beliefs about these quotes and how we use quotes in three separate discussions:
As far as I can tell, this is a case of WP:ICANTHEARYOU. We've already had this discussion, yet you are not duplicating the same discussion twice on the same page and reopening it as a different discussion. There isn't a single policy or guideline that supports your continual removal of these quotes. Viriditas (talk) 00:35, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
And yet there isn't a policy that supports your recent additions of fringe theories and beliefs, and yet you keep adding them in even though, time and time again, you've been told why this is a problem. Thargor Orlando (talk) 13:03, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Some thoughts on how the article should be written

In my opinion the article should include:

Reasons for the march

We should include, in encyclopedic language, the reasons that the march took place, clearly and fully giving the marchers' reasons forobjecting to: GE food, Monsanto, some US legislation, and corporate power - once only.

Response from mainstream science

A quick summary of the mainstream scientific view on GM foods.

Response from Monsanto

Again, in encyclopedic language, a summary of Monsanto's response to the march - once

Details of the actual march

Numbers, countries etc, clearly separating the organisers' claims from independent data.

Future plans

Brief indication of the marchers' plans for future events.

The article already does these things, and in cases where you claim it does not, we find that either we cannot do it because of strict policies regarding original research or a lack of information. Essentially, your entire argument for changing this article is a straw man. Viriditas (talk) 01:01, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

We should not, in my opinion have:

'Quote wars'. Detailed discussion of any of the subjects discussed, we have articles on those. Unenecyclopedic or inflammatory language. Promotional statements for the marchers or Monsanto. Anything and everything on the subject just because there is a sources somewhere for it. Martin Hogbin (talk) 10:41, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Excuse me, you are the one who is engaging in "quote wars" here, disrupting both the article and talk page with your obsessive deletions based on no policy or guideline, only your own opinion. Further, your above layout contradicts virtually every discussion we've had on this subject, including the overwhelming consensus that we should not have a point-counterpoint layout. You continue to make unsupported claim after unsupported claim about this article. When asked to provide evidence supporting your claims, you refuse. The quotes you removed were neither excessive nor "anti-Monsanto", and the POV of a source is not a criteria we use for removal. There is no indication anywhere that we are using anything less than encyclopedic language, but you'll keep saying that because it's a nebulous term you don't have to define or describe, and it gives you a fake "reason" to keep making disruptive edits. Viriditas (talk) 00:35, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Sentence about who is promoting labeling laws and why / Agent Orange

This one sentence is not a huge deal, but I think emblematic on recognizing and dealing with what has been happening here. The statement as it was 2 days ago was

but those wishing to avoid them have advocated for mandatory GMO labeling laws."

This is an unsourced statement that everybody promoting labeling laws is from a sole group with a sole motive. Further, even the the particular source used gave several different groups promoting the labeling laws from which the one group was cherry-picked for inclusion, and also to construct the false/unsourced statement that that all promoters were from that one group. I made a tiny change (added "opposing or") which was a no-brainer partial fix, changing it to:

but those opposing or wishing to avoid them have advocated for mandatory GMO labeling laws.

Viriditas reverted the change. I then went through the source article and changed it to include the groups referred to in the article:

Due to these concerns, some consumers wishing to avoid GMO products, some organic food companies (and) some consumer groups and consumers wary of processed foods have advocated for mandatory labeling laws.

My changes was only a partial fix, as it still left intact the incorrect unsourced statement of a single motivation. A few other "sky is blue" other additional motivations are to require the stigma and expense of labeling as a way to oppose GMO by those who do so for other reasons, or by/for organic food companies to gain an advantage. This is not to support putting those in, it is to say that the statement of a sole motivation is both implausible and unsourced.

Viriditas then removed "some organic food companies" from the list of proponents. This removed info is straight from the source cited to support that statement.

With so much work attempting an only-partial no-brainer fix, and with Viriditas similarly modifying / dominating the article in other areas (23 of the last 25 edits) this is getting pretty depressing. This includes, Viriditas, who deleted a bunch of GMO research results as not being germane enough, just adding that Monsanto made Agent Orange during the Vietnam war! (which I reverted) This is getting depressing. I didn't / don't intend to spend much time trying to help with this article and am about to be chased away by this situation.

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 12:55, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

HR 933 section seems out of place and overtly biased

I'm not sure why the HR 933 section exists, it seems like an odd thing to have its own subsection. Furthermore the paragraph only presents the opinion of one "Dave Murphy", who appears to be an activist. Doesn't this violate WP:SOAPBOX? And why does HR933 need its own section when it already has a bullet point? Also shouldn't the "HR 933" in the bullet point be linked to the Farmer Assurance Provision? I just don't see how posting Murphy's opinions on the matter helps the article's balance. Sure, it's the opinion held by many of the protestors, but they seem to have opinions just as if not more detailed on the other bullet points - why were those not expanded too? Firemylasers (talk) 16:42, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

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