Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 17:51, 2 August 2013 editSecond Quantization (talk \| contribs)Pending changes reviewers24,876 edits Undid revision 566882846 by TheShadowCrow (talk) Do not delete another editors contributions, there is no requirement that statements be only by involved participants.← Previous edit		Revision as of 17:53, 2 August 2013 edit undoTheShadowCrow (talk \| contribs)6,258 edits Undid revision 566883044 by IRWolfie- (talk) What part of "Statement by ('''involved editor 1''')" are you not grasping?Next edit →
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	:But you're being off-topic. Ymblanter, were you not under the impression I had violated an expired ban? ] (]) 17:47, 2 August 2013 (UTC)		:But you're being off-topic. Ymblanter, were you not under the impression I had violated an expired ban? ] (]) 17:47, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

	===Statement by ~~BearMan998~~===		===Statement by (involved editor 1)===
	I've had several run-ins with TheShadowCrow on BLP pages of Armenian athletes. Typically, I found that TSC will make pushy and POV edits on these articles. One such incident resulted in a 3 month topic ban on April 11, 2013. This can be seen . Not only did TSC make a pushy nationality related edit to the ] article, TSC then went ahead and made misleading edits on the ] article by manipulating what the sources actually stated. As a result, TSC was topic banned from BLP and Armenian related articles for 3 months starting on April 11th. However, TSC immediately broke this topic ban on April 22, 2013 as can be seen in this . In fact, there were some egregious violations of the topic ban including one to change the name of an Armenian athlete (Khoren Oganesyan) on another page when TSC's attempt to have Khoren Oganesyan's name changed on the main article failed. Based on recent history, I just have not seen TSC being able to edit Armenian related pages with a neutral point of view and it seems that TSC can not work within the boundaries of policy with regards to these articles. ] (]) 17:15, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

	===Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by TheShadowCrow ===		===Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by TheShadowCrow ===

Revision as of 17:53, 2 August 2013

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Neo.

User:Neo. is topic banned for three months from anything to do with religion or politics in Gujarat. EdJohnston (talk) 17:00, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Request concerning Neo. User who is submitting this request for enforcement Qwyrxian (talk) 16:36, 15 July 2013 (UTC) User against whom enforcement is requested Neo. (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Sanction or remedy to be enforced Misplaced Pages:ARBIP Diffs and explanations of problem User:Darkness Shines completely transformed the article 2002 Gujarat violence from one violating multiple policies (particularly, WP:NPOV, WP:RS, and WP:BLP) into one that, while not perfect, was at least minimally compliant (see this sequence of edits). User:Neo. reverted, failing to even recognize DS's concerns, making an unfounded analogy. From that point forward (July 6), Neo and a few others began a series of "defenses" on the talk page, most of which failed to address policies, and in Neo.'s case, crossed over into tendentiousness. The problem begins in Talk:2002 Gujarat violence#POV pushing by User:Darkness Shines, where Neo attempted to argue that WP:PRIMARY (including WP:BLPPRIMARY) don't apply here, despite the fact that they apply everywhere in Misplaced Pages (see . He goes further and says that academic sources are "academic crap" and "conspiracy theories" "written to make money". He continues to hold this position in Talk:2002 Gujarat violence#Edit request on 6 July 2013, in which he asserts that such violations are "minor problems" that Darkness Shines is using to divert admins. Later, Neo erroneously states that verified information may not be removed from an article. On July 8, Neo added what he claimed was an RfC...but the phrasing was so extremely biased that I removed the tag and indicated that such a leading question was unacceptable. On July 9, Neo stated that my and User:The Rahul Jain's only reason for being involved in the article was because of "prior disputes on Jainism articles"; actually, TRJ had a dispute with Neo., which I stepped into because, as with this article, Neo was attempting to keep an older version of articles that violated policies in spite of TRJ's improvements. My reason for involvement in this article was originally as an uninvolved admin responding to an edit request that I became aware of because it was discussed on a user talk page I watch. I've since explicitly stated that I consider myself WP:INVOLVED and am not taking admin actions on the article. Neo. repeated this claim on July 15. On July 10, Neo. insinuated that RegentsPark, the previous protected admin who had protected a version resembling DS's preferred version to stop an edit war, and chose the current version as the WP:WRONGVERSION, would come back to the article again to intentionally choose DS's version to favor him. On July 11, Neo. proposed a new change to the article, which quite obviously violated WP:NPOV, later, User:Maunus noticed (and I confirmed) that Neo was misrepresenting the sources, either through lack of comprehension or deliberate POV pushing (see Talk:2002 Gujarat violence#comments and Talk:2002 Gujarat violence#31 convicted, we know already). During this whole shebang, Neo. filed two WP:ANI complaints. Both were dismissed as being at best a misrepresented content dispute and at worst "baseless" and WP:IDHT/WP:STICK. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive803#Admin Qwyrxian and WP:ANI#GANG on 2002 Gujarat violence. He also made similar accusations at the Noticeboard for India-related topics (see WT:INB#Wikiproject India and GANG), which included an accusation of tag-teaming, and was closed as not appropriate for the noticeboard. Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required) Warned on July 9 by Qwyrxian (talk · contribs) User Talk:Neo.#Warning contains a series of edits by several admins about edit warring Darkness Shines (talk · contribs) left the formal, templated warning on July 15 Additional comments by editor filing complaint @Sandstein: The warning on July 9, left on the article's talk page, is sufficient to meet the warning requirements of sanctions; all that is requires is that editors be aware that sanctions are in place on an article, not that a personal, templated warning be left for that person specifically. There are certainly actionable diffs after the July 9 date; most notably the tendentiousness displayed in proposing and making editors waste time in arguing about a blatantly POV recommended change to the article. While article space problems are more "obvious" than talk page one's, WP:IDHT and WP:TE problems on talk pages can drive away good faith editors and be equally destructive to the encyclopedia. Qwyrxian (talk) 22:14, 16 July 2013 (UTC) I was going to accept Sandstein's argument wrt the the warnings, as I have no problem with requiring strict adherence to rules. However, I'm worried that Neo's second statement itself is evidence that the problem has not gone away--rather, that the disruptive behavior is merely on hold while this discussion is open. To me, that statement still clearly shows errors in understanding of preferred editing behaviors, as well as still attributes unwarranted motives to myself and regentspark. So...perhaps a stern warning will do (along with some administrative watching of the talk page to ensure future behavior is acceptable)...but my experience with this type of POV pushing--so strong that the POV-pusher doesn't even realize that they're warping everything, including our policies, to try to make things conform to "the truth"--doesn't get better with time, or even with warnings. Qwyrxian (talk) 21:47, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested Diff of notification Discussion concerning Neo. Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks. Statement by Neo. This whole ArbCom concept is new to me. I use mobile. Please give at least 24 hours to study this concept and write my side. Until decision is made, I will not edit any article related to Gujarat, politics or religion. Thanks. neo (talk) 18:55, 15 July 2013 (UTC) It would take very long and very long post if I try to analyse every edit of all users. I may left out something but let me use Occam's razor and try to be short. I will talk about things happened before yesterday's edit by User:Utcursch. The whole argument is about whether this 'Godhra train burning' section is presenting NPOV. And I don't see it. The section begins with "was reported to have been attacked and set alight by a crowd of Muslims". Then section goes on citing Banerjee report, Hazard center report, Citizen's tribunal report, independent observers and Ainslie Embree to tell reader that the fire was an accident and muslims got nothing to do with it. Shah-Nanavati report use 'conspiracy by locals' wording, not Muslims. But as it indicate Muslim involvement, DS has done WP:SYNTHESIS in next sentence to tell reader that Shah-Nanavati commission was partial and corrupt, attempt to destroy credibility of Shah-Nanavati report. So if a school child or new reader read this section, he/she would believe that the fire on train was an accident. To present other side of the story, i.e 'direct or alleged involvement of Muslim mob', I proposed this edit. I am dealing with 4 users single handendly. DS says out of 6 sources, 3 are primary and 1 blog but refuses to tell which. Then he goes on to say that the "locals" word cover 'muslim mob' theory. So my edit is unnecessary. I pointed out to Maunus that 2002 HRW report is already used by DS in the article and 2012 HRW article still quote 2002 report. Now Maunus is giving strange argument that as HRW report is critical of post-Godhra violence, hence I can't use that report for Godhra incident and he accuse me of "misrepresentation". Qwyrxian was silent. I forced him to comment in this section. I am attrbuting to sources with direct quotes, but he also accused me of "misrepresentation". The Rahul Jain just occasionaly drops in to 'vote' in favor of DS and goes away without any comment on my proposed edit. The team shows extreme disliking for news or any web sources and insist on 'academic' sources. But in 'Godhra train burning' section, out of 10 sources DS has used 4 news sources to support Banerjee report, Shah-Nanavati report, Citizen's tribunal report. When it comes to supporting their POV, they do use news and web sources, but oppose by others. They discard pre-2010 sources as old and outdated, but goes on using 2002 HRW report and 2003 USCIRF report to support their POV in the article. Initially I assumed good faith in DS and believed that the 'attack by a muslim mob' theory don't exist in his 'academic book' sources. Hence I called those books as 'crap' because I believed that those books are not telling whole story about Godhra. But now I strongly suspect that DS, Maunus and Qwyrxian are cherry picking POV contents from academic sources and as most users don't have access to his academic sources, he is getting away with it. Yesterday User:Utcursch got hold of two books and said here that DS has clearly misrepresented Ainslie Embree. I strongly suspect that 'attack by a muslim mob' theory is also discussed in his academic sources but he is making readers believe that it doesn't exist in his book sources or all books talk about only 'accident' theory as real cause. Such tendentious behaviour, gaming the system frustrate users and severely harm quality of wikipedia. I request ArbCom to take appropriate decision to stop their disruptive behaviour. Thank you. neo (talk) 17:21, 16 July 2013 (UTC) Additional comment by Neo. I am giving Human Rights Watch , United States Department of State , European Parliament , Amnesty International , Social Science Research Council , United Nations Human Rights Council , TIME magazine , Wall Street Journal as sources. I am attributing quotes to sources. I am ready to bring more hundreds of sources. But the arguments like this by Maunus that "Sources talk about attacks against muslims after Godhra, hence I can not use those sources for Godhra incident to show attack by muslims on train" and on this argument attempt to reject all thousands of sources is outragious. Making a team, inserting non-neutral contents and then forbidding any user to include other side of the story, pulling down Rfc to gag my mouth, such things are very serious matter for the wikipedia. If Admins disagree, then better to block me. I can't stand this nonsense. neo (talk) 11:20, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Was I supposed to comment on the statement of Qwyrxian or was I supposed to make statement on the issue? neo (talk) 14:20, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Comment by Neo. on Qwyrxian's statement Much before User:Darkness Shines started replacing article, I had told him to propose his changes on article talkpage. But DS ignored it and started replacing article. I objected and told him on article talkpage to self-revert. Div999 supported DS, while me, Solomon7968, Shii raised questions. But as DS went on replacing article, I reverted all his edits except this one concerning BLPPRIMARY. It is never restored till date but Qwyrxian keep talking about it again and again. On that false assumption he reverted my edit. Qw had no idea what DS is doing, when I pointed out he did second mass revert. If there was ever BLPPRIMARY in my revert removed by DS, Qw should give diff, otherwise he should stop raising this issue again and again which potentially misguide users. I stand by my argument that verified contents can not be removed without explaination. Qw should have pointed out which sources and contents in prev version of article violate WP:RS and WP:NPOV. Qw never did, he left that job for DS and DS also never did. In fact in his second comment on talkpage Qw suggested to DS to discuss changes section by section or take Rfc. I agreed. DS disagreed. Then Qw did U turn, declared himself editor and started asking me to show what is wrong in the draft article of DS I had no access to book sources of DS and was unable to comment on whole draft article of DS in short time. Qw had suggested Rfc to DS, but instead I went for Rfc. Qw removed Rfc tag accusing me of bad behaviour citing WP:AC/DS and saying that standards are extra high for this article. But he didn't know existence of this article until a "week ago". If he have no idea about subject of the article, why he allowed replacement of whole article? He claims standards are extra high but as he had no idea about existence of the article, he never checked whether contents of DS really exists in academic books. Qw says that he might have argued to block DS before. Why suddenly blind faith in DS to allow him to replace whole article which is under WP:AC/DS? * Qw has himself said that he was not aware of existence of article. He has also said on my talkpage that he came on this article after seeing my edit request on RegentsPark talkpage. Also it can be seen from article edit history that The Rahul Jain jumped in on this article only because of me and Qw. My doubt about RegentsPark-DS was not unfounded. Even after ANI discussion, he protected article which had disputed contents of DS. I have no reason to believe that RegentsPark won't do it again. Maunus has commented only about HRW and UN source. I asked in RSN whether HRW is reliable source and am I misrepresenting. I am not misrepresenting anything. It can be clearly established that Qw and Rahul Jain were not on '2002 Gujarat violence' and I had prior dispute with both related to Jainism articles. There are 4.4 million articles. Now how they suddenly jumped on '2002 Gujarat violence' to support another disputing pair of DS and Maunus is mystery. If this does not fit into definition of tag team, then I retract my accusation and apologize to all concerned. neo (talk) 20:25, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Statement by RegentsPark I concur largely with Qwyrxian's analysis above so I'm not going to repeat all the diffs here but do wish to make a couple of points. Neo needs to be aware that the way Misplaced Pages works we collaborate on content. What that means is that sometimes editors may agree with each other while at other times they may disagree. However, in each instance of agreement or disagreement, the way forward is always through specific content suggestions and specific sources to back up those suggestions. Wholesale reverts with broad accusations of POV violations and/or tag teaming are not only not helpful but are also disruptive (cf. , ). Neo needs to realize that pointy RfCs, assumptions of bad faith, and large scale reverts are not the way toward becoming a useful editor on Misplaced Pages. --regentspark (comment) 15:23, 17 July 2013 (UTC) @YK. Neo. reverts wholesale without discussion stuff he doesn't like (see my My two diffs above and also in Qw's statement); sees tag teaming and gangs working against him (see the edit summaries in his contributions. All signs of an editor who would rather see his or her version and nothing else. --regentspark (comment) 13:42, 22 July 2013 (UTC) Statement by Yogesh Khandke (1) I agree with user:Sandstein that a content dispute has been brought to this venue, as evident from the arguments put forward by the nominator and the counter-arguments presented by Neo. (2) The revision history statistics of 2002 Gujarat violence indicate that there have been 3857 edits made by 1073 users, made over a period of almost 10 years. What kind of evidence does the nominator have in support of his claim that DS has completely transformed the article from one that had multiple issues to one that is compliant? (3) In a subject so subjective and controversial, the article would reflect the views of the consensus. Do DS's 128 edits made in 45 days, the third highest to the article, reflect respect to wp:CONSENSUS, where is the evidence that Neo's edits overturn that consensus? (4) So the nominator's claim that "There are certainly actionable diffs after the July 9 date; most notably the tendentiousness displayed in proposing and making editors waste time in arguing about a blatantly POV recommended change to the article." does not apply in Neo's case. Neo is prepared to discuss and act according to the rules as declared in his edit on "11:08, 11 July 2013 (UTC)" in which he informs that he would refer the matter to DRN or RFC/U. (5) Neo is trying to discuss, he has less than 12 edits to 2002 Gujarat violence, DS has 128. RegentsParks needs to provide evidence why he considers Neo unwilling to collaborate. (6) I suggest to Neo that he ought not to use words/phrases like "nonsense" or "block me", he may consider looking at the path user:Mrt3366 had to take, he has to trust the system, there isn't anything personal against him. (7) I suggest that Neo shouldn't comment on the motivation of other editors in making edits, and not make personal comments about them. (8) There have been allegations by the nominator that edits made by Neo are actionable, evidence for the same simply indicates a content dispute, Neo has expressed willingness to set right any behavioural issues the community may find in his edits, he has demonstrated sound understanding of the principles of good editing by his statement that he would stay away from "sanction areas" pending his appeal. Administrative action on Misplaced Pages is "coercive and not punitive", I therefore do not see any reason to ban or block Neo, if any advice is necessary to be given to Neo, it may be given, Neo has demonstrated that he would take it to heart. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 03:29, 18 July 2013 (UTC) I agree with user:Sitush's observations generally. However my linking to wp:CONSENSUS implies that the consensus is amongst compliant editors and not vandals or the like. Also if there is allusion to a systemic bias on his part, he has to present evidence to prove his claim. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 07:44, 20 July 2013 (UTC) DS: What is the particular misrepresentation? Would you pl be specific? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 02:21, 21 July 2013 (UTC) DS: There are 11 sources, you need to specify the one or two specific bad cases. Also these are content disputes? Is this the right venue? Don't we do this at DRN? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 10:26, 22 July 2013 (UTC) DS: The Hindu story dt. 2005-01-23 mentions various controversies, those controversies have not been mentioned in the section, matters such as molesting a Muslim girl on the platform, accident and not sabotage. Perhaps we can have that in the section based on the Hindu story. However those speculations seem to have been overruled by the subsequent 31 convictions, 11 death sentences and 20 life terms, 63 acquittals. However this IBN source doesn't tell us that all were Muslims, we just have 4 Muslim (sounding) names. So the IBN source cannot be used for the "all Muslims" remarks. Was this IBN source related lacunae discussed on the talk page, did Neo justify this mis-representation? Please supply diff of discussion. I've checked four sources, two are used fine, there is no misrepresentation in the third, the fourth (IBN the one you didn't share) doesn't inform all were Muslims. Please supply diffs as above. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 10:20, 23 July 2013 (UTC) DS: Why did you remove my edit which informs that Dargah that was a syncretic place of worship? Your edit summary didn't provide any explanation. The statement I added was "The shrine was a site of syncretic worship having Hindu and Muslim followers" The source which incidentally has been used by you six times in the same articleBunsha 2006 informs us "The Rashiduddin Chisti dargah was a place of worship not only for Muslims, but also for Hindus." Why did you not use it to inform readers that the Dargah (typically of Dargahs in India, notable examples are the Khwaja Garib Nawaz dargah or the Khwaja Moinuddin Chisti darga or the Haji Ali Dargah) was a syncretic place of worship? I requested you to discuss the same on the article's talk page, why didn't you discuss? I opine that your aforementioned deletion is gross misrepresentation of the source. Is Neo dealing with such mis-representation? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 07:55, 24 July 2013 (UTC) DS: I've answered your question above, as best as I could in my edit: 10:20, 23 July 2013 (UTC). Now why was the well sourced syncretic edit reverted by you without explanation? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:28, 25 July 2013 (UTC) user:cailil: Neo is asking questions, he should be given an opportunity to understand where he was wrong and if he is prepared to improve, IMO a ban isn't necessary. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:32, 25 July 2013 (UTC) Statement by Sitush @Yogesh, you say that In a subject so subjective and controversial, the article would reflect the views of the consensus, referring to the number of people who have edited. Not so: there is a world of difference between people who contribute to articles and people who do so in a policy-compliant manner. I suspect that there are far more Indian contributors to Misplaced Pages than there are Pakistani contributors but, regardless of that, WP:CONSENSUS favours those who comply with policy and it is the formal definition of "consensus" here. If your argument or contribution does not comply with policy then it should have no bearing on the outcome. Articles such as the one referred to in this instance are prone to often-extreme Hindu-Islam, India-Pakistan POV-pushing and friction. That POV issue is in large part why the sanctions whose enforcement is being requested here were introduced. I have no opinion on the request itself, having deliberately tried to keep a low profile and having no desire to get sucked into yet another aspect of the increasingly disruptive "Indo-Pak", Hindu-Muslim palaver that has been getting a higher and higher profile in all the wrong places over the last few months. From my own experience of Neo. elsewhere, it does not surprise me that the behaviour has ended up here, but beyond that I really do not want to get involved. - Sitush (talk) 23:46, 18 July 2013 (UTC) I don't have time to look into it right now but there may be some past history here. Neo has made a request at WP:BN that concerns another user account. - Sitush (talk) 10:25, 25 July 2013 (UTC) Statement by Darkness Shines I have asked this question of Neo. and another editor on the talk page of the article this pertains to, as Yogesh Khandke is so sure of Neo. being neutral, tall me YK, is this within our NPOV policies? Are the sources used in that section, used correctly? Darkness Shines (talk) 01:14, 21 July 2013 (UTC) @Yogesh Khandke: It is a simple question YK, is that section neutral? And is it an accurate reflection of the sources used in it? Darkness Shines (talk) 09:57, 22 July 2013 (UTC) @Yogesh Khandke: You have said in your first statement "What kind of evidence does the nominator have in support of his claim that DS has completely transformed the article from one that had multiple issues to one that is compliant?" Other than the BLPPRIMARY issues and PRIMARY issues I had fixed that section is an example of what the article looked like before I rewrote the most of it. You say "Neo is trying to discuss" But he was not, his first post about my changes were an accusation of POV pushing and a demand I self revert, even though he claimed above in his initial statement that he was "AGF" of myself. His second post on my changes were to call the sources "academic crap which make up stories long after the incident." and that these academics are " conspiracy theorists tends to screw straight forward cases and publish books to earn money", even though he says above he has no access to them, and not once did he ask for quotes or clarification on the sources. Does that sound like as you say, "Neo is trying to discuss"? So onto the section, and the question nobody seems willing to respond to. Is that section written in a neutral manner? A simple yes or no will suffice for that one. And as you seem unwilling to look at the sources here are a few from that section, are these sources used correctly and in line with out NPOV policy. This is the first source used in the section The second The third Darkness Shines (talk) 10:46, 22 July 2013 (UTC) @Yogesh Khandke: I told you in my edit summary why I reverted you, I do not want you following my edits, if you would like me to explain why this is so I will be more than happy to. You never responded to my question, was that section written in a neutral manner? And when compared to the edits I had done to bring it in line with policy then was Neo. correct to revert that work and call the sources used "academic crap"? Darkness Shines (talk) 16:58, 24 July 2013 (UTC) Sorry YK, do you in fact wish for me to expand upon why I do not want you to follow my edits? And still no, you have not responded to the question, you have in fact skirted around it. Let me put it in very plain language, was neo with the full stop correct in his assertion that the sources used were "academic crap" and was he correct to edit war over the changes? Darkness Shines (talk) 17:12, 25 July 2013 (UTC) Statement by (username) Result concerning Neo. This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above. Neo., to clarify, this is not a hearing by the Arbitration Committee, but a request to administrators like me to take action under the Committee's delegated authority, see WP:AC/DS. I don't readily see anything actionable in this submission, or to convince me that this is not mainly a content dispute. The warning allowing us to impose discretionary sanctions was issued on 15 July. Anything earlier is not actionable in the context of this forum in my view. And there is no later dated diff in the evidence submission. Additionally, writing poor-quality content (not that I say that this has necessarily happened here) or making mistaken arguments in discussions is not a violation of Misplaced Pages's conduct policies, and therefore not in and of itself sanctionable. But writing non-neutral and unverifiable content is, as is engaging in personal attacks. Neo. should take care in the future to adhere to all important policies as outlined at WP:5P, and not make sweeping accusations of misconduct without adequate evidence. The countercomplaint by Neo. is too confused and insufficiently supported by evidence (in the form of explained diffs!) to be actionable at first glance. Sandstein 21:40, 16 July 2013 (UTC) Qwyrxian, the July 9 warning is not sufficient, because WP:AC/DS#Warnings requires that the warning include "a link to the decision authorizing sanctions", which that warning did not. Sandstein 23:07, 16 July 2013 (UTC) Sorry, Sandstein, but this objection is really an extreme form of rules-lawyering formalism. The warning contained a link to WP:Discretionary sanctions, which in itself documents an arbcom decision "authorizing sanctions", describing the nature of discretionary sanctions and listing, with links, all the individual arb cases. That is at least as authoritative and as informative (if not more) than a direct link to the original case page, and is more than enough to fulfill both the letter and – more importantly – the spirit of the formal rule. I haven't yet looked at all the evidence presented above, but I'm certainly not going to look at it with an artifical cutoff date of 15 July in mind, unless there is positive evidence that he has significantly improved his conduct after that date (as opposed to just accidentally not producing new egregious cases of misconduct). Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:09, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Well, you may do as you wish, but I prefer to err on the side of caution when determining whether enforcement authority exists. The problem is that WP:DS is not a decision authorizing sanctions; the individual case decisions do that. Sandstein 18:17, 17 July 2013 (UTC) As far as I'm concerned that July 9th warning IS sufficient, so I agree with Future Perfect. Such a warning has been good enough historically. If there had been a talk page template that would have been enough (for me now and again has been historically). Given that the message on the talk page was directly to Neo, I see it serving the same purpose as a formalized warning. On a first look at the evidence there is either a WP:COMPETENCE or tendentiousness issue here with Neo. There have been enough administrative warnings here from multiple uninvolved sysops. And Neo has been casting aspersions wildly. Some sort of restriction is in order here, at least to point Neo in the right direction or to let him learn elsewhere (in other topics) how to behave on WP. I'd be considering a 1 month page ban. But I'm open to suggestion either to be more or less harsh--Cailil 22:02, 17 July 2013 (UTC) I've looked over this again and remain of the opinion that Neo should at least be page banned. The warnings were clear - the reaction was wildly inappropriate. I've asked Future Perfect to review his comment above as I would another opinion before acting--Cailil 17:55, 24 July 2013 (UTC) In a comment at Future Perfect's talk page, Neo. said that he would refrain from editing anything about religion or politics in Gujarat until a decision was reached here. That wording sounds like a good description of the area of trouble. I recommend that Neo. be placed under a three-month topic ban from religion and politics in Gujarat due to his apparent misunderstanding of how Misplaced Pages policy applies to controversial articles. The worst diff (among those listed above) is probably the one about 'academic crap.' The fact that Neo. seems to not fully understand what's going on here doesn't work in his favor. I notice that another admin (above) proposed a one-month page ban instead, but I doubt the value of such a short ban. If you feel that three months isn't justified, consider closing this complaint with just a warning. EdJohnston (talk) 14:29, 26 July 2013 (UTC) Concur with Ed the wider scope will help reduce spill over from this conflict elsewhere. Support 3 month ban from "anything about religion or politics in Gujarat" broadly construed--Cailil 23:32, 29 July 2013 (UTC) Closing: User:Neo. is banned for three months from anything about religion or politics in Gujarat, broadly construed. The ban covers all pages of Misplaced Pages including talk. EdJohnston (talk) 16:58, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Neo. is topic banned for three months from anything to do with religion or politics in Gujarat. EdJohnston (talk) 17:00, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Request concerning Neo.

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Qwyrxian (talk) 16:36, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Neo. (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Misplaced Pages:ARBIP

Diffs and explanations of problem

User:Darkness Shines completely transformed the article 2002 Gujarat violence from one violating multiple policies (particularly, WP:NPOV, WP:RS, and WP:BLP) into one that, while not perfect, was at least minimally compliant (see this sequence of edits). User:Neo. reverted, failing to even recognize DS's concerns, making an unfounded analogy. From that point forward (July 6), Neo and a few others began a series of "defenses" on the talk page, most of which failed to address policies, and in Neo.'s case, crossed over into tendentiousness.

The problem begins in Talk:2002 Gujarat violence#POV pushing by User:Darkness Shines, where Neo attempted to argue that WP:PRIMARY (including WP:BLPPRIMARY) don't apply here, despite the fact that they apply everywhere in Misplaced Pages (see . He goes further and says that academic sources are "academic crap" and "conspiracy theories" "written to make money". He continues to hold this position in Talk:2002 Gujarat violence#Edit request on 6 July 2013, in which he asserts that such violations are "minor problems" that Darkness Shines is using to divert admins. Later, Neo erroneously states that verified information may not be removed from an article.

On July 8, Neo added what he claimed was an RfC...but the phrasing was so extremely biased that I removed the tag and indicated that such a leading question was unacceptable.

On July 9, Neo stated that my and User:The Rahul Jain's only reason for being involved in the article was because of "prior disputes on Jainism articles"; actually, TRJ had a dispute with Neo., which I stepped into because, as with this article, Neo was attempting to keep an older version of articles that violated policies in spite of TRJ's improvements. My reason for involvement in this article was originally as an uninvolved admin responding to an edit request that I became aware of because it was discussed on a user talk page I watch. I've since explicitly stated that I consider myself WP:INVOLVED and am not taking admin actions on the article. Neo. repeated this claim on July 15.

On July 10, Neo. insinuated that RegentsPark, the previous protected admin who had protected a version resembling DS's preferred version to stop an edit war, and chose the current version as the WP:WRONGVERSION, would come back to the article again to intentionally choose DS's version to favor him.

On July 11, Neo. proposed a new change to the article, which quite obviously violated WP:NPOV, later, User:Maunus noticed (and I confirmed) that Neo was misrepresenting the sources, either through lack of comprehension or deliberate POV pushing (see Talk:2002 Gujarat violence#comments and Talk:2002 Gujarat violence#31 convicted, we know already).

During this whole shebang, Neo. filed two WP:ANI complaints. Both were dismissed as being at best a misrepresented content dispute and at worst "baseless" and WP:IDHT/WP:STICK. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive803#Admin Qwyrxian and WP:ANI#GANG on 2002 Gujarat violence. He also made similar accusations at the Noticeboard for India-related topics (see WT:INB#Wikiproject India and GANG), which included an accusation of tag-teaming, and was closed as not appropriate for the noticeboard.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Warned on July 9 by Qwyrxian (talk · contribs)
User Talk:Neo.#Warning contains a series of edits by several admins about edit warring
Darkness Shines (talk · contribs) left the formal, templated warning on July 15

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

@Sandstein: The warning on July 9, left on the article's talk page, is sufficient to meet the warning requirements of sanctions; all that is requires is that editors be aware that sanctions are in place on an article, not that a personal, templated warning be left for that person specifically. There are certainly actionable diffs after the July 9 date; most notably the tendentiousness displayed in proposing and making editors waste time in arguing about a blatantly POV recommended change to the article. While article space problems are more "obvious" than talk page one's, WP:IDHT and WP:TE problems on talk pages can drive away good faith editors and be equally destructive to the encyclopedia. Qwyrxian (talk) 22:14, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I was going to accept Sandstein's argument wrt the the warnings, as I have no problem with requiring strict adherence to rules. However, I'm worried that Neo's second statement itself is evidence that the problem has not gone away--rather, that the disruptive behavior is merely on hold while this discussion is open. To me, that statement still clearly shows errors in understanding of preferred editing behaviors, as well as still attributes unwarranted motives to myself and regentspark. So...perhaps a stern warning will do (along with some administrative watching of the talk page to ensure future behavior is acceptable)...but my experience with this type of POV pushing--so strong that the POV-pusher doesn't even realize that they're warping everything, including our policies, to try to make things conform to "the truth"--doesn't get better with time, or even with warnings. Qwyrxian (talk) 21:47, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: Diff of notification

Discussion concerning Neo.

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Neo.

This whole ArbCom concept is new to me. I use mobile. Please give at least 24 hours to study this concept and write my side. Until decision is made, I will not edit any article related to Gujarat, politics or religion. Thanks. neo (talk) 18:55, 15 July 2013 (UTC) It would take very long and very long post if I try to analyse every edit of all users. I may left out something but let me use Occam's razor and try to be short. I will talk about things happened before yesterday's edit by User:Utcursch.

The whole argument is about whether this 'Godhra train burning' section is presenting NPOV. And I don't see it. The section begins with "was reported to have been attacked and set alight by a crowd of Muslims". Then section goes on citing Banerjee report, Hazard center report, Citizen's tribunal report, independent observers and Ainslie Embree to tell reader that the fire was an accident and muslims got nothing to do with it. Shah-Nanavati report use 'conspiracy by locals' wording, not Muslims. But as it indicate Muslim involvement, DS has done WP:SYNTHESIS in next sentence to tell reader that Shah-Nanavati commission was partial and corrupt, attempt to destroy credibility of Shah-Nanavati report. So if a school child or new reader read this section, he/she would believe that the fire on train was an accident.

To present other side of the story, i.e 'direct or alleged involvement of Muslim mob', I proposed this edit. I am dealing with 4 users single handendly. DS says out of 6 sources, 3 are primary and 1 blog but refuses to tell which. Then he goes on to say that the "locals" word cover 'muslim mob' theory. So my edit is unnecessary. I pointed out to Maunus that 2002 HRW report is already used by DS in the article and 2012 HRW article still quote 2002 report. Now Maunus is giving strange argument that as HRW report is critical of post-Godhra violence, hence I can't use that report for Godhra incident and he accuse me of "misrepresentation". Qwyrxian was silent. I forced him to comment in this section. I am attrbuting to sources with direct quotes, but he also accused me of "misrepresentation". The Rahul Jain just occasionaly drops in to 'vote' in favor of DS and goes away without any comment on my proposed edit.

The team shows extreme disliking for news or any web sources and insist on 'academic' sources. But in 'Godhra train burning' section, out of 10 sources DS has used 4 news sources to support Banerjee report, Shah-Nanavati report, Citizen's tribunal report. When it comes to supporting their POV, they do use news and web sources, but oppose by others. They discard pre-2010 sources as old and outdated, but goes on using 2002 HRW report and 2003 USCIRF report to support their POV in the article.

Initially I assumed good faith in DS and believed that the 'attack by a muslim mob' theory don't exist in his 'academic book' sources. Hence I called those books as 'crap' because I believed that those books are not telling whole story about Godhra. But now I strongly suspect that DS, Maunus and Qwyrxian are cherry picking POV contents from academic sources and as most users don't have access to his academic sources, he is getting away with it. Yesterday User:Utcursch got hold of two books and said here that DS has clearly misrepresented Ainslie Embree. I strongly suspect that 'attack by a muslim mob' theory is also discussed in his academic sources but he is making readers believe that it doesn't exist in his book sources or all books talk about only 'accident' theory as real cause.

Such tendentious behaviour, gaming the system frustrate users and severely harm quality of wikipedia. I request ArbCom to take appropriate decision to stop their disruptive behaviour. Thank you. neo (talk) 17:21, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Additional comment by Neo.

I am giving Human Rights Watch , United States Department of State , European Parliament , Amnesty International , Social Science Research Council , United Nations Human Rights Council , TIME magazine , Wall Street Journal as sources. I am attributing quotes to sources. I am ready to bring more hundreds of sources. But the arguments like this by Maunus that "Sources talk about attacks against muslims after Godhra, hence I can not use those sources for Godhra incident to show attack by muslims on train" and on this argument attempt to reject all thousands of sources is outragious. Making a team, inserting non-neutral contents and then forbidding any user to include other side of the story, pulling down Rfc to gag my mouth, such things are very serious matter for the wikipedia. If Admins disagree, then better to block me. I can't stand this nonsense. neo (talk) 11:20, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Was I supposed to comment on the statement of Qwyrxian or was I supposed to make statement on the issue? neo (talk) 14:20, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment by Neo. on Qwyrxian's statement

Much before User:Darkness Shines started replacing article, I had told him to propose his changes on article talkpage. But DS ignored it and started replacing article. I objected and told him on article talkpage to self-revert. Div999 supported DS, while me, Solomon7968, Shii raised questions. But as DS went on replacing article, I reverted all his edits except this one concerning BLPPRIMARY. It is never restored till date but Qwyrxian keep talking about it again and again. On that false assumption he reverted my edit. Qw had no idea what DS is doing, when I pointed out he did second mass revert. If there was ever BLPPRIMARY in my revert removed by DS, Qw should give diff, otherwise he should stop raising this issue again and again which potentially misguide users.

I stand by my argument that verified contents can not be removed without explaination.

Qw should have pointed out which sources and contents in prev version of article violate WP:RS and WP:NPOV. Qw never did, he left that job for DS and DS also never did. In fact in his second comment on talkpage Qw suggested to DS to discuss changes section by section or take Rfc. I agreed. DS disagreed. Then Qw did U turn, declared himself editor and started asking me to show what is wrong in the draft article of DS I had no access to book sources of DS and was unable to comment on whole draft article of DS in short time. Qw had suggested Rfc to DS, but instead I went for Rfc. Qw removed Rfc tag accusing me of bad behaviour citing WP:AC/DS and saying that standards are extra high for this article. But he didn't know existence of this article until a "week ago". If he have no idea about subject of the article, why he allowed replacement of whole article? He claims standards are extra high but as he had no idea about existence of the article, he never checked whether contents of DS really exists in academic books. Qw says that he might have argued to block DS before. Why suddenly blind faith in DS to allow him to replace whole article which is under WP:AC/DS? * Qw has himself said that he was not aware of existence of article. He has also said on my talkpage that he came on this article after seeing my edit request on RegentsPark talkpage. Also it can be seen from article edit history that The Rahul Jain jumped in on this article only because of me and Qw.

My doubt about RegentsPark-DS was not unfounded. Even after ANI discussion, he protected article which had disputed contents of DS. I have no reason to believe that RegentsPark won't do it again.

Maunus has commented only about HRW and UN source. I asked in RSN whether HRW is reliable source and am I misrepresenting. I am not misrepresenting anything.

It can be clearly established that Qw and Rahul Jain were not on '2002 Gujarat violence' and I had prior dispute with both related to Jainism articles. There are 4.4 million articles. Now how they suddenly jumped on '2002 Gujarat violence' to support another disputing pair of DS and Maunus is mystery. If this does not fit into definition of tag team, then I retract my accusation and apologize to all concerned. neo (talk) 20:25, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Statement by RegentsPark

I concur largely with Qwyrxian's analysis above so I'm not going to repeat all the diffs here but do wish to make a couple of points. Neo needs to be aware that the way Misplaced Pages works we collaborate on content. What that means is that sometimes editors may agree with each other while at other times they may disagree. However, in each instance of agreement or disagreement, the way forward is always through specific content suggestions and specific sources to back up those suggestions. Wholesale reverts with broad accusations of POV violations and/or tag teaming are not only not helpful but are also disruptive (cf. , ). Neo needs to realize that pointy RfCs, assumptions of bad faith, and large scale reverts are not the way toward becoming a useful editor on Misplaced Pages. --regentspark (comment) 15:23, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

@YK. Neo. reverts wholesale without discussion stuff he doesn't like (see my My two diffs above and also in Qw's statement); sees tag teaming and gangs working against him (see the edit summaries in his contributions. All signs of an editor who would rather see his or her version and nothing else. --regentspark (comment) 13:42, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Yogesh Khandke

(1) I agree with user:Sandstein that a content dispute has been brought to this venue, as evident from the arguments put forward by the nominator and the counter-arguments presented by Neo. (2) The revision history statistics of 2002 Gujarat violence indicate that there have been 3857 edits made by 1073 users, made over a period of almost 10 years. What kind of evidence does the nominator have in support of his claim that DS has completely transformed the article from one that had multiple issues to one that is compliant? (3) In a subject so subjective and controversial, the article would reflect the views of the consensus. Do DS's 128 edits made in 45 days, the third highest to the article, reflect respect to wp:CONSENSUS, where is the evidence that Neo's edits overturn that consensus? (4) So the nominator's claim that "There are certainly actionable diffs after the July 9 date; most notably the tendentiousness displayed in proposing and making editors waste time in arguing about a blatantly POV recommended change to the article." does not apply in Neo's case. Neo is prepared to discuss and act according to the rules as declared in his edit on "11:08, 11 July 2013 (UTC)" in which he informs that he would refer the matter to DRN or RFC/U. (5) Neo is trying to discuss, he has less than 12 edits to 2002 Gujarat violence, DS has 128. RegentsParks needs to provide evidence why he considers Neo unwilling to collaborate. (6) I suggest to Neo that he ought not to use words/phrases like "nonsense" or "block me", he may consider looking at the path user:Mrt3366 had to take, he has to trust the system, there isn't anything personal against him. (7) I suggest that Neo shouldn't comment on the motivation of other editors in making edits, and not make personal comments about them. (8) There have been allegations by the nominator that edits made by Neo are actionable, evidence for the same simply indicates a content dispute, Neo has expressed willingness to set right any behavioural issues the community may find in his edits, he has demonstrated sound understanding of the principles of good editing by his statement that he would stay away from "sanction areas" pending his appeal. Administrative action on Misplaced Pages is "coercive and not punitive", I therefore do not see any reason to ban or block Neo, if any advice is necessary to be given to Neo, it may be given, Neo has demonstrated that he would take it to heart. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 03:29, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree with user:Sitush's observations generally. However my linking to wp:CONSENSUS implies that the consensus is amongst compliant editors and not vandals or the like. Also if there is allusion to a systemic bias on his part, he has to present evidence to prove his claim. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 07:44, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
DS: What is the particular misrepresentation? Would you pl be specific? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 02:21, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
DS: There are 11 sources, you need to specify the one or two specific bad cases. Also these are content disputes? Is this the right venue? Don't we do this at DRN? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 10:26, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
DS: The Hindu story dt. 2005-01-23 mentions various controversies, those controversies have not been mentioned in the section, matters such as molesting a Muslim girl on the platform, accident and not sabotage. Perhaps we can have that in the section based on the Hindu story. However those speculations seem to have been overruled by the subsequent 31 convictions, 11 death sentences and 20 life terms, 63 acquittals. However this IBN source doesn't tell us that all were Muslims, we just have 4 Muslim (sounding) names. So the IBN source cannot be used for the "all Muslims" remarks. Was this IBN source related lacunae discussed on the talk page, did Neo justify this mis-representation? Please supply diff of discussion. I've checked four sources, two are used fine, there is no misrepresentation in the third, the fourth (IBN the one you didn't share) doesn't inform all were Muslims. Please supply diffs as above. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 10:20, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
DS: Why did you remove my edit which informs that Dargah that was a syncretic place of worship? Your edit summary didn't provide any explanation. The statement I added was "The shrine was a site of syncretic worship having Hindu and Muslim followers" The source which incidentally has been used by you six times in the same articleBunsha 2006 informs us "The Rashiduddin Chisti dargah was a place of worship not only for Muslims, but also for Hindus." Why did you not use it to inform readers that the Dargah (typically of Dargahs in India, notable examples are the Khwaja Garib Nawaz dargah or the Khwaja Moinuddin Chisti darga or the Haji Ali Dargah) was a syncretic place of worship? I requested you to discuss the same on the article's talk page, why didn't you discuss? I opine that your aforementioned deletion is gross misrepresentation of the source. Is Neo dealing with such mis-representation? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 07:55, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
DS: I've answered your question above, as best as I could in my edit: 10:20, 23 July 2013 (UTC). Now why was the well sourced syncretic edit reverted by you without explanation? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:28, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
user:cailil: Neo is asking questions, he should be given an opportunity to understand where he was wrong and if he is prepared to improve, IMO a ban isn't necessary. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:32, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Sitush

@Yogesh, you say that In a subject so subjective and controversial, the article would reflect the views of the consensus, referring to the number of people who have edited. Not so: there is a world of difference between people who contribute to articles and people who do so in a policy-compliant manner. I suspect that there are far more Indian contributors to Misplaced Pages than there are Pakistani contributors but, regardless of that, WP:CONSENSUS favours those who comply with policy and it is the formal definition of "consensus" here. If your argument or contribution does not comply with policy then it should have no bearing on the outcome.

Articles such as the one referred to in this instance are prone to often-extreme Hindu-Islam, India-Pakistan POV-pushing and friction. That POV issue is in large part why the sanctions whose enforcement is being requested here were introduced. I have no opinion on the request itself, having deliberately tried to keep a low profile and having no desire to get sucked into yet another aspect of the increasingly disruptive "Indo-Pak", Hindu-Muslim palaver that has been getting a higher and higher profile in all the wrong places over the last few months. From my own experience of Neo. elsewhere, it does not surprise me that the behaviour has ended up here, but beyond that I really do not want to get involved. - Sitush (talk) 23:46, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't have time to look into it right now but there may be some past history here. Neo has made a request at WP:BN that concerns another user account. - Sitush (talk) 10:25, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Darkness Shines

I have asked this question of Neo. and another editor on the talk page of the article this pertains to, as Yogesh Khandke is so sure of Neo. being neutral, tall me YK, is this within our NPOV policies? Are the sources used in that section, used correctly? Darkness Shines (talk) 01:14, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

@Yogesh Khandke: It is a simple question YK, is that section neutral? And is it an accurate reflection of the sources used in it? Darkness Shines (talk) 09:57, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

@Yogesh Khandke: You have said in your first statement "What kind of evidence does the nominator have in support of his claim that DS has completely transformed the article from one that had multiple issues to one that is compliant?" Other than the BLPPRIMARY issues and PRIMARY issues I had fixed that section is an example of what the article looked like before I rewrote the most of it. You say "Neo is trying to discuss" But he was not, his first post about my changes were an accusation of POV pushing and a demand I self revert, even though he claimed above in his initial statement that he was "AGF" of myself. His second post on my changes were to call the sources "academic crap which make up stories long after the incident." and that these academics are " conspiracy theorists tends to screw straight forward cases and publish books to earn money", even though he says above he has no access to them, and not once did he ask for quotes or clarification on the sources. Does that sound like as you say, "Neo is trying to discuss"? So onto the section, and the question nobody seems willing to respond to. Is that section written in a neutral manner? A simple yes or no will suffice for that one. And as you seem unwilling to look at the sources here are a few from that section, are these sources used correctly and in line with out NPOV policy. This is the first source used in the section The second The third Darkness Shines (talk) 10:46, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

@Yogesh Khandke: I told you in my edit summary why I reverted you, I do not want you following my edits, if you would like me to explain why this is so I will be more than happy to. You never responded to my question, was that section written in a neutral manner? And when compared to the edits I had done to bring it in line with policy then was Neo. correct to revert that work and call the sources used "academic crap"? Darkness Shines (talk) 16:58, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry YK, do you in fact wish for me to expand upon why I do not want you to follow my edits? And still no, you have not responded to the question, you have in fact skirted around it. Let me put it in very plain language, was neo with the full stop correct in his assertion that the sources used were "academic crap" and was he correct to edit war over the changes? Darkness Shines (talk) 17:12, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Neo.

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Neo., to clarify, this is not a hearing by the Arbitration Committee, but a request to administrators like me to take action under the Committee's delegated authority, see WP:AC/DS.

I don't readily see anything actionable in this submission, or to convince me that this is not mainly a content dispute. The warning allowing us to impose discretionary sanctions was issued on 15 July. Anything earlier is not actionable in the context of this forum in my view. And there is no later dated diff in the evidence submission. Additionally, writing poor-quality content (not that I say that this has necessarily happened here) or making mistaken arguments in discussions is not a violation of Misplaced Pages's conduct policies, and therefore not in and of itself sanctionable.

But writing non-neutral and unverifiable content is, as is engaging in personal attacks. Neo. should take care in the future to adhere to all important policies as outlined at WP:5P, and not make sweeping accusations of misconduct without adequate evidence. The countercomplaint by Neo. is too confused and insufficiently supported by evidence (in the form of explained diffs!) to be actionable at first glance. Sandstein 21:40, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Qwyrxian, the July 9 warning is not sufficient, because WP:AC/DS#Warnings requires that the warning include "a link to the decision authorizing sanctions", which that warning did not. Sandstein 23:07, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, Sandstein, but this objection is really an extreme form of rules-lawyering formalism. The warning contained a link to WP:Discretionary sanctions, which in itself documents an arbcom decision "authorizing sanctions", describing the nature of discretionary sanctions and listing, with links, all the individual arb cases. That is at least as authoritative and as informative (if not more) than a direct link to the original case page, and is more than enough to fulfill both the letter and – more importantly – the spirit of the formal rule. I haven't yet looked at all the evidence presented above, but I'm certainly not going to look at it with an artifical cutoff date of 15 July in mind, unless there is positive evidence that he has significantly improved his conduct after that date (as opposed to just accidentally not producing new egregious cases of misconduct). Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:09, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, you may do as you wish, but I prefer to err on the side of caution when determining whether enforcement authority exists. The problem is that WP:DS is not a decision authorizing sanctions; the individual case decisions do that. Sandstein 18:17, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned that July 9th warning IS sufficient, so I agree with Future Perfect. Such a warning has been good enough historically. If there had been a talk page template that would have been enough (for me now and again has been historically). Given that the message on the talk page was directly to Neo, I see it serving the same purpose as a formalized warning.
On a first look at the evidence there is either a WP:COMPETENCE or tendentiousness issue here with Neo. There have been enough administrative warnings here from multiple uninvolved sysops. And Neo has been casting aspersions wildly. Some sort of restriction is in order here, at least to point Neo in the right direction or to let him learn elsewhere (in other topics) how to behave on WP. I'd be considering a 1 month page ban. But I'm open to suggestion either to be more or less harsh--Cailil 22:02, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I've looked over this again and remain of the opinion that Neo should at least be page banned. The warnings were clear - the reaction was wildly inappropriate. I've asked Future Perfect to review his comment above as I would another opinion before acting--Cailil 17:55, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

In a comment at Future Perfect's talk page, Neo. said that he would refrain from editing anything about religion or politics in Gujarat until a decision was reached here. That wording sounds like a good description of the area of trouble. I recommend that Neo. be placed under a three-month topic ban from religion and politics in Gujarat due to his apparent misunderstanding of how Misplaced Pages policy applies to controversial articles. The worst diff (among those listed above) is probably the one about 'academic crap.' The fact that Neo. seems to not fully understand what's going on here doesn't work in his favor. I notice that another admin (above) proposed a one-month page ban instead, but I doubt the value of such a short ban. If you feel that three months isn't justified, consider closing this complaint with just a warning. EdJohnston (talk) 14:29, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Concur with Ed the wider scope will help reduce spill over from this conflict elsewhere. Support 3 month ban from "anything about religion or politics in Gujarat" broadly construed--Cailil 23:32, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Closing: User:Neo. is banned for three months from anything about religion or politics in Gujarat, broadly construed. The ban covers all pages of Misplaced Pages including talk. EdJohnston (talk) 16:58, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Request for removal of adminship

Not actionable, see the enclosed explanation. Sandstein 21:49, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
User:GiantSnowman has abused his Admin privileges many times and I have come to request that he be stripped of these powers. Although he may have very well likely abused his Administration many more times, I have been witness to three occasion, twice being the victim. 1. GiantSnowman was trying to remove information I but up on the Arsen Beglaryan article despite it being backed up by sources. I pointed out the source and he stated "No, I have looked at the sources - as I have stated (far too) many times". When I asked what kind of sources he wanted, he said "Something more than run-of-the-mill/transfer news - an in-depth piece(s) or interview in national media would suffice.". After that I pointed out most links were interviews. After that he let the page be. Thus, he showed that he has a failure to communicate, which violates WP:ADMIN. 2. GiantSnowman deleted the opinion of another user on an article for deletion page. Although the user's large comment was messy, it was still contributing to the discussion and the user was acting in good faith. The user voiced a complaint to ANI over this. GiantSnowman had shown he has Bad faith adminship and again had failure to communicate. 3. Most recently, GiantSnowman had blocked me for a month over supposedly violating a ban, which had actually expired over 2 weeks ago at the time. The block was removed a few days later and there was instant general consensus to remove it. The reason for the block was one other Admin's suspicion, who was unaware the ban was over. The other Admin was better, and did not jump to a block without knowing full details. GiantSnowman, however, instantly placed a block not even 5 minutes later without even checking that the ban in question was over. The other Admin soon realized his mistake and left the discussion. Despite the only small lead towards the block having recalled his claims, GiantSnowman still refused to remove it, and so I applied it in WP:AE and a number of different Admins immedietly and unanimously agreed to remove the poorly placed block. GiantSnowman had, for a third known time, violated Failure to communicate and had now violated Repeated or consistent poor judgment on WP:ADMIN I call upon Misplaced Pages's superiors to strip this Admin of his powers, which he has demonstrated time and time again he can't be trusted with. TheShadowCrow (talk) 21:31, 31 July 2013 (UTC) Hi, TheShadowCrow: This is not the proper forum for this kind of request. First off, the authority to remove administrator access resides solely with the Arbitration Committee, and you should open a case with them if that is the desired goal. However, I must also warn that without proper Steps in dispute resolution being taken, such as a Request for Comment, it is unlikely that they will accept the case. SirFozzie (talk) 21:37, 31 July 2013 (UTC) I'm speedily closing this as not actionable per SirFozzie's explanation, which is correct. Sandstein 21:48, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Not actionable, see the enclosed explanation. Sandstein 21:49, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

User:GiantSnowman has abused his Admin privileges many times and I have come to request that he be stripped of these powers.

Although he may have very well likely abused his Administration many more times, I have been witness to three occasion, twice being the victim.

1. GiantSnowman was trying to remove information I but up on the Arsen Beglaryan article despite it being backed up by sources. I pointed out the source and he stated "No, I have looked at the sources - as I have stated (far too) many times". When I asked what kind of sources he wanted, he said "Something more than run-of-the-mill/transfer news - an in-depth piece(s) or interview in national media would suffice.". After that I pointed out most links were interviews. After that he let the page be. Thus, he showed that he has a failure to communicate, which violates WP:ADMIN.

2. GiantSnowman deleted the opinion of another user on an article for deletion page. Although the user's large comment was messy, it was still contributing to the discussion and the user was acting in good faith. The user voiced a complaint to ANI over this. GiantSnowman had shown he has Bad faith adminship and again had failure to communicate.

3. Most recently, GiantSnowman had blocked me for a month over supposedly violating a ban, which had actually expired over 2 weeks ago at the time. The block was removed a few days later and there was instant general consensus to remove it. The reason for the block was one other Admin's suspicion, who was unaware the ban was over. The other Admin was better, and did not jump to a block without knowing full details. GiantSnowman, however, instantly placed a block not even 5 minutes later without even checking that the ban in question was over. The other Admin soon realized his mistake and left the discussion. Despite the only small lead towards the block having recalled his claims, GiantSnowman still refused to remove it, and so I applied it in WP:AE and a number of different Admins immedietly and unanimously agreed to remove the poorly placed block. GiantSnowman had, for a third known time, violated Failure to communicate and had now violated Repeated or consistent poor judgment on WP:ADMIN

I call upon Misplaced Pages's superiors to strip this Admin of his powers, which he has demonstrated time and time again he can't be trusted with. TheShadowCrow (talk) 21:31, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi, TheShadowCrow: This is not the proper forum for this kind of request. First off, the authority to remove administrator access resides solely with the Arbitration Committee, and you should open a case with them if that is the desired goal. However, I must also warn that without proper Steps in dispute resolution being taken, such as a Request for Comment, it is unlikely that they will accept the case. SirFozzie (talk) 21:37, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm speedily closing this as not actionable per SirFozzie's explanation, which is correct. Sandstein 21:48, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by User:Neo.

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: Neo. (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Temporary name for account "Neo." (talk) 08:51, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed: Topic ban 'religion and politics in Gujarat' http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Neo.#Notice_of_Arbitration_Enforcement_noticeboard_discussion

Administrator imposing the sanction: EdJohnston (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

Statement by User:Neo.

As per WP:AC/DS criteria 2 and 4, warning should be given by uninvolved admin and it should identify misconduct and advise to mend ways. This sanction is based on this so-called warning by involved editor.

I have edited only 2 Gujarat related articles with total 8 edits. 1 edit on Narendra Modi to concur with same 2 reverts by 2 users. I have 7 edits on 2002 Gujarat violence. Before starting editing the article, I had told User:Darkness Shines to discuss his replacement of article on article talkpage. As Darkness Shines didn't hid me and other 2 users, I did 3 edits on 6 July and 1 edit on 8 July to restore previous version of the article. 2 edits on 15 July 2 concur with contents of User:Utcursch. I have attempted to include my own contents only once in any Gujarat related article on 10 July (and that edit was reverted after 6 minutes.) I think it is inappropriate to ban me from whole spectrum of Gujarat related articles because of only 8 edits.

I had clarified on talkpage that whole issue is about 'Godhra train burning' section to make it neutral. But even after that User:Qwyrxian filed appeal to ban me and admins have banned me for whole range of articles. As I have tried to include my contents only once, I think the appeal by Qwyrxian was to restrict me from article talkpage. In that case, Qwyrxian and other users like him could have chose not to respond to me.

Initially on 17 July, Admin Cailil proposed 1 month page ban. On 26 July, Admin EdJohnston read my this comment on talkpage of Admin Future Perfect. He used my own idea, inflated it and proposed either 3 months ban on Gujarat politics, religion articles or no ban at all, just warning. Then Admin Cailil changed his mind to concur with 3 month ban on whole spectrum of Gujarat articles. As I am not involved in other articles, I think this decision is unfair and needs to be reviewed.
I apologize for accusation of 'tag team'. I made 'academic crap' comment rather in jest to counter 'shit article' comment of Darkness Shines.

I have no specific area of interest on Misplaced Pages. I treat myself in anti-vandal unit and I can jump on any article out of 4.4 million articles. On 3 July, I detected that Darkness Shine is about to replace whole article with his own version and I just jumped in. My involvement in Gujarat related articles is limited only to '2002 Gujarat violence' and that too ONLY for this 'Godhra train burning' section. Once this section has covered both theories to make it neutral, I will refrain from editing any Gujarat related article or its talkpage. I request you to lift this ban so that I can go to DRN or Rfc or any appropriate forum to resolve this issue. Thank you. Temporary name for account "Neo." (talk) 08:51, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Statement by User:EdJohnston

The article that was most in dispute was 2002 Gujarat violence. My closure of the original AE complaint about User:Neo. can be seen at this link. I hope that my reasoning was clear. I participated along with three other admins in reaching a conclusion. EdJohnston (talk) 20:02, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Cailil

Neo is not actually providing an objective basis for over turning here. The level of warnings received by Neo on July 8/9th was extraordinary. As detailed in the above AE thread, Qwyrxian notified Neo that the area was under discretionary sanctions and this was followed by stern warnings from by Regents park and Bbb23 that a block was imminent. As detailed above 3 sysops (myself, Future Perfect and Ed) saw Neo has having sufficient warning for sanction. His behaviour was untenable, and ~~the continued level of invective towards other users in this request should be noted.~~ I stand by the decision above. The Gujarat article can go to RFC or DRN without Neo and a consensus can still be formed and solution to any policy based issues can be resolved, again without this user's intervention (IF such actions are required). Neo's request is for the ban to be lifted so that he can return to previous activities - the very activities that led to this sanction--Cailil 11:16, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Qwyrxian

I do not understand this request. The enforcement action was taken less than a week ago. The reasoning was clearly laid out, and supported by several uninvolved administrators as well as a number of involved editors. Neo offers no new evidence, nor really any novel reasoning. I'm unclear why he thinks AE should reverse the properly instated topic ban, except because he doesn't like it.

I do want to respond to one of Neo's points, where he says, "As I have tried to include my contents only once, I think the appeal by Qwyrxian was to restrict me from article talkpage." Yes! That is absolutely what I was trying to do. Your points on the talk page were tendentious and disruptive. They were preventing positive, consensus-building steps forward, because you kept repeating the same non-policy compliant suggestions and arguments. Further, you continued to cast unwarranted aspersions on other editors. Thus, your participation on that page was a net negative to the project.

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by User:Neo.

Result of the appeal by User:Neo.

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

From reviewing this, I see no reason to accept the appeal, but I will wait for more comments from uninvolved administrators before closing. SirFozzie (talk) 01:26, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by TheShadowCrow

Appealing user: TheShadowCrow (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – TheShadowCrow (talk) 04:24, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed: Removal of sports exemption from WP:ARBAA2

Administrator imposing the sanction: Bbb23 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

Statement by TheShadowCrow

On July 25, User:Ymblanter was under the impression I had violated a ban, not knowing at the time that it had expired 2 weeks previously. User:GiantSnowman, who has a history of not even bothering to look things up (not my words) immediately put down a block without even bothering to see the ban was expired. User:Sandstein had then came in and confirmed that I had not violated the expired ban (which he applied), but did claim I violated my current ban of WP:ARBAA2. I told him he is wrong, and he admitted that he was indeed wrong and I had not violated said ban. Even though the block was clearly based off a an expired block, GiantSnowman refused to remove it, which denies him of sympathy admins would later give him for "not knowing about the sport exemption", even though this has nothing to do with WP:ARBAA2. I filled an appeal on my talk, and it was soon moved here, where I couldn't add to it. Despite that this wasn't related to the WP:ARBAA2, as you can see in the last link the admins talked about it as if it was and assumed that, proposed by User:EdJohnston, removing the sport exemption would simplify things, which made no sense at all. Despite the block being based on a expired ban, it took the admins 5 days to decide to lift it, with the sports exemption gone. Ownership of the ban was given to User:Bbb23. It previously belonged to User:CTCooper, who was in favor of lifting the block. Bbb23 agreed to putting the exemption back. However, he hasn't, and has been really unresponsive to my requests to do so, more or less not upholding the task placed upon him. So now I'm here, requesting I am returned what was taken from me.

And I really hope no Admin is going to close this right away and refuse to comment. I get a bad feeling that is going to happen. TheShadowCrow (talk) 04:24, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Bbb23

Statement by Gatoclass

I'm not sure whether or not I should comment in the "Results" section since I participated in the related case, but I will repeat here what I said there, along with some additional observations. TSC's last two blocks were overturned, meaning that his last endorsed sanction was, if I'm not mistaken, in December last year. Since then, he has authored over 100 articles about Armenian sportspeople.

TSC came to attention again recently for a couple of edits seen as violations of his ARBAA2 topic ban. One was for initiating a discussion about the correct name of an ethnic Armenian sportsperson, the other was for a copyedit to the page of a category seen as coming under ARBAA2. Both these blocks have subsequently been overturned, but in the appeal against the second block it was decided to rescind TSC's previous exemption from Armenian-related sports articles, meaning he is now prevented from editing such articles.

After a brief review of the evidence, I still cannot see any justification for the removal of TSC's editing privileges regarding ethnic Armenian sportspeople. This topic area is clearly an area of interest to him and he appears to be contributing useful content there, so what purpose is the ban supposed to be serving? The two blocks for two edits in the exempted topic area which supposedly violated his ARBAA2 ban area have both been rescinded, so in effect his editing privileges in the sports-related area have been removed for offences that were subsequently deemed either nonexistent or dubious, which hardly seems to be a just outcome to me. I could also point out that the two alleged offences which attracted the now-rescinded blocks were at most minor or technical in nature, and IMO might have been better responded to with nothing more than a word of advice or caution, per WP:AGF.

Withdrawal of a user's editing privileges, particularly for an indefinite period, is a serious step that should never be undertaken without due cause, and I am simply not seeing it in this case. Gatoclass (talk) 06:29, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

@Sandstein, with regard to STC's very confrontative and exhausting attitude towards any administrators interacting with them, I am obliged to concur to some extent with this observation, however, it's well known that users recently placed under sanctions, particularly sanctions they regard as unjust, will often react with a considerable degree of hostility, and a principle often cited on this project is that users should not be subject to additional sanctions merely for reacting inappropriately to their placement. With regard to TSC's apparent difficulty in understanding the meaning and scope of topic bans, he can hardly be accused of such when his last two blocks were rescinded either because reviewing admins agreed with his interpretation of the scope of his ban, or else concluded that his interpretation was not unreasonable. Additionally, I fail to see how his recent sanctions-related requests can be described as "misguided" given that his last two appeals were both successful. Gatoclass (talk) 06:57, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Ymblanter

I noticed that TSC did not provide the link to the discussion from which their recent troubles started. Here it is: Talk:Khoren Oganesian#Requested move 2. This is not a long discussion, and everybody can check that TSC is not prepared to follow Misplaced Pages policies, and resolves to personal attacks instead. I should also add that I personally first came across TSC a year ago, when I they were persistently adding the category Category:Armenian judoka to Arsen Galstyan, wh o is accidentally an Olympic Champion competing for Russia. My attempts to remove the category resulted in this discussion, where at some point TSC stated that I should find sources that Galstyan does not have Armenian citizenship. My general impression is that discussion anything with TSC is baseless. The only argument they accept is a warning of an imminent block based on arbitration restrictions. I am afraid the arbitation enforcement should be kept in force, or, at the very least, they should be placed on a 1RR rule or smth. Otherwise they will be discussing any edit to death not really being succeptible to any arguments based on Misplaced Pages policies.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:25, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Speaking of the Organesian requested move, after TSC failed to get consensus to move it, TSC went to the closing admin and tried unsuccessfully to get it moved against consensus anyway as seen here. When that didn't work, TSC starting changing Organesian's name to TSC's desired spelling on other pages as seen here. BearMan998 (talk) 17:38, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

On the contrary, me and another user pointed out only facts on why the article should be moved, yet you and GS simply refused to move it, despite the most common name being clearly identified as Hovhannisyan.

But you're being off-topic. Ymblanter, were you not under the impression I had violated an expired ban? TheShadowCrow (talk) 17:47, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by TheShadowCrow

Result of the appeal by TheShadowCrow

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

TheShadowCrow is subject to an indefinite Armenia-Azerbaijan topic ban, which they do not appeal here. Rather, they ask that sports topics be exempted from the ban. However, they do not provide any reason for why that exemption should be made in the light of the reasons for the original topic ban. For that reason, the appeal should be declined. Moreover, as any who follow this board and WP:RFAR may attest, TheShadowCrow has recently been engaging in what I can only call a misguided campaign of wikilawyering against perceived failings by administrators (of which the tone of this request is an example), while failing to address in their voluminous submissions their own conduct that is the basis of all restrictions that apply to them. As I have indicated in a previous appeals discussion, TheShadowCrow's apparent difficulty in understanding the meaning and scope of topic bans, coupled with their very confrontative and exhausting attitude towards any administrators interacting with them, would result in any exceptions being very difficult and time-consuming to manage. For this reason, too, the appeal should be declined. Additionally, considering the volume of recent misguided sanctions-related requests by TheShadowCrow, I propose that they are restricted from appealing their sanctions to any authority other than the Arbitration Committee more than once every six months, including this appeal. Sandstein 06:29, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

TSC is very close to an indef block outside of this ban for considerable point making behaviour. His actions leading to sanction under his topic ban were utterly inappropriate (see previous thread) and the purpose of the exemption was rendered moot by them. In short there is no way that TSC should subject to anything less than a full topic ban from Armenia-Azerbaijan pages.
I'll support Sandstein's move to restrict TSC's use of boards to wikilawyer, and I agree direct appeal to arbcom once in 6 months is enough. But I also will state that if TSC's tendentious behaviour continues normal administrative intervention to halt it may occur without further warning--Cailil 12:08, 2 August 2013 (UTC)