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| This at least will give everyone the chance to criticise something concrete :) ] (]) 03:12, 10 August 2013 (UTC) | This at least will give everyone the chance to criticise something concrete :) ] (]) 03:12, 10 August 2013 (UTC) | ||
| It's been drawn to my attention that, according to my user=page,I'm retired from Wiki. How very true. This will be my last post. Best of luck :) ] (]) 05:58, 10 August 2013 (UTC) | |||
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To Do List: Source Verification and Revisions
Use this section to report false, misquoted, and misrepresented citations, and to explain subsequent revisions.
Modern scholarship has generally dismissed these analogies as without formal basis
The sentence "Modern scholarship has generally dismissed these analogies as without formal basis, and a form of parallelomania laden with historical errors" does seem to be excessively POV given that the sources that support this statement at best suggest that those individual historians reject Christ Myth Theory for those reasons but not historians in general. Could we identify which historical errors (if any) are involved in this theory?
The claim about parallelomania does not appear from a 'mainstream historian' but from the Jesuit Preiest Gerald O'Collins. It seems to be somewhat dishonest to attribute to 'historians in general what are in fact the words of a single priest!
And could somebody even explain to me what is meant by an analogy lacking "formal basis"? This seems to be an odd and somewhat arbitrarily applied criteria. --81.157.90.31 (talk) 00:05, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
- This article is so bad it's funny. This is just one example among many of the problems this article has and, unfortunately, is exactly the sort of article one is going to end up on an American-centric, crowd-sourced format such as this. By the looks of it, it's going to need to be rewritten from the ground up by someone with an actual background in the appropriate fields (i.e. mythology, history of religion, Greek religion, early Christianity, and Semitic religion).
- For example, it's perfectly mainstream in academia that Dionysian ritual and myth influenced early Christian material. Isn't this "Christ myth theory"? And yet it has been "dismissed"? Where does the "myth theory" begin and end? And who decided that comparative mythology no longer applied to the figure of Christ? Who bestowed this special status and why? What is the agenda of the page as it is written, exactly? Meanwhile, these statements do need to go until they are rephrased to the point of comprehensibility. :bloodofox: (talk) 09:19, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
- I should note that there are tables producing comparisons between tales of Jesus in early Christian mythology and earlier material on Dionysus in modern university level introductory texts to Greek mythology, for example. This isn't the only example of a well known motif in the Classical world strongly paralleling and far pre-dating the existence of Christian material. Elsewhere parallels are drawn between Prometheus's crucifixion-like binding by Zeus (this particular angry sky god action due to Prometheus acting as savior of mankind) in Prometheus Bound (415 BCE) and to Christ's crucifixion. Comparative mythology is alive and well. It has advanced well beyond the arguments of Müller and Frazer, despite what this article and related articles would have the reader believe. Using a "dying and rising god" straw man seems to be a tactic employed here, as well as mentioning "Christ myth theory" as a large body of theories and then dismissing it over and over as the rejection of the existence of Jesus as any sort of historical figure.
- I'm an ocean away from my library, but this material to be introduced is crucial to this article—Christianity being essentially a product of Hellenic society—and I'll be able to drum up sources as time allows (there are plenty). Meanwhile, I urge readers to not let this article turn into an apologetic "'Mainstream scholars' say that Christ was exactly as he appears in the bible and no outside influences contributed to our understanding of Christ in modern Christianity!" :bloodofox: (talk) 10:12, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
- A couple of comments. First, I think it worthwhile to note that I am in the process of getting together not only lists of articles, but also named subarticles, of all those articles in the first and second editions of the Eliade Encyclopedia of Religion. Many of the topics you mention, as well as a number of others, are discussed somewhere in some of those articles, and I have noted that many of those articles don't even seem to exist here yet. Second, as per previous discussion, this is more or less a separate, distinct, topic itself, which merits a separate article, and this title is probably among the better titles for that article. Third, a lot of the things you discuss are probably of what might be called a "broad topic", like sky gods and dying and resurrecting gods, which are probably more relevant to other articles here or not-yet-here, and probably shouldn't be in this article for WEIGHT reasons, etc. Yeah, a lot of our content regarding all religious material tends to be written from the perspective of a single religious grouping, rather than from the perspective of the academic study of religion. But, unfortunately, there aren't that many people around here who took "history of religions" type courses in college, and I think I might be one of the few who did. When I can get that material, and some other material, finished, and maybe help develop some of the content on those topics that we don't have yet, that will help a lot. But, believe me, it takes a while to go through reference books page by page like seems to be the best way to proceed in developing such lists. John Carter (talk) 17:04, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
- I'm an ocean away from my library, but this material to be introduced is crucial to this article—Christianity being essentially a product of Hellenic society—and I'll be able to drum up sources as time allows (there are plenty). Meanwhile, I urge readers to not let this article turn into an apologetic "'Mainstream scholars' say that Christ was exactly as he appears in the bible and no outside influences contributed to our understanding of Christ in modern Christianity!" :bloodofox: (talk) 10:12, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
Need for a definition of "Christ myth"
I've shortened the lead sentence so it reads Christ myth "is the proposition that Jesus of Nazareth never existed." I did this because the article as it stands is including a great deal of very mainstream scholarly discussion as "Christ myth" - for example, the majority of modern scholars would seriously question the virgin birth stories in Matthew and Luke, but they aren't mythicists.
We really, really need a decent definition. There are four references cited at the end of that first sentence. The first, Ehrman, should be reliable but unfortunately I can't access it on google books. The second is a long web posting by G.A. Wells which I don't think is useful - he's speaking only for himself, and I can find a concise definition in it anyway. The third one, Theissen, also has no definition of Christ myth-theory, and in fact doesn't even discuss it in the same sense as this article. The last one, Voorst, looks promising, but the range of pages given is 7-11 and page 7 has been dropped for me. Nevertheless, at the top of page 8 (first page I have from that range) he seems to be saying that Christ-myth is the position that Jesus is a completely mythological figure.
Anyway, I think we need a good definition before the article can be written. I've found one in Van Voorst's 2002 entry in the encyclopedia "Jesus in history, thought and culture" (page 658) - it's now the 5th source referenced at the end of the first sentence, but I'd like to drop the other four and make this our starting point.PiCo (talk) 03:48, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
- As the Definition link in the infobox shows this is not the first time this issue has come up and as that long mess shows there isn't any kind of agreement as to the exact definition of the Christ myth theory. Using one author (Voorst) to try and define this would just open up a POV can of worms that no one really wants.
- Besides as the article points out Voorst's claim that Wells' Jesus Myth was not a Christ myth book is challenged by Doherty, Carrier, and Eddy-Boyd who all state it is a Christ myth book even though the book expressly states the hypothetical Q gospel is based on a historical Jesus.--216.31.124.157 (talk) 06:17, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
In a recent exhaustive elaboration of the position, one of the leading proponents of Jesus mythicism, Earl Doherty, defines the view as follows: it is “the theory that no historical Jesus worthy of the name existed, that Christianity began with a belief in a spiritual, mythical figure, that the Gospels are essentially allegory and fiction, and that no single identifiable person lay at the root of the Galilean preaching tradition.” In simpler terms, the historical Jesus did not exist. Or if he did, he had virtually nothing to do with the founding of Christianity.
— Ehrman 2012, p.12- --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 06:29, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
- I agree that we need a solid set of quotes regarding definition(s). Right now it's a total mess that implies that "Christ myth theory" must deny any historical basis for Jesus. For example, it's quite possible to regard Jesus as having been a historical figure with a lot of motifs from myth and folklore stacked up around him, see, for example, the Jefferson bible, and then there's discussion in classical studies regarding how much the cult of Dionysus influenced the figure of Jesus—but this doesn't quality as "Christ myth theory"? If not, then what? :bloodofox: (talk) 12:25, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
- Agreed. Price for example believes that some of the gospel narrative is based on narratives about Simon bar Giora and Jesus ben Ananias while the preaching is simply a historicisation of various Cynic and rabbinic teachings that were floating around at the time. Neither of these historical figures can be usefully said to have been the historical Jesus. Martijn Meijering (talk) 17:59, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
- Disagreed. There seems to be an assumption, which I believe is not warranted by the evidence. This title, which I admit is flawed, is the one that has, over the years, been agreed on as apparently the most neutral and common title for this particular topic, which is the academic discussion of whether or not the allegedly historical Jesus was in fact historical. It seems to me that other editors are trying to read into the title something about how the article should, by its title, incorporate content relating to other mythic elements which may or may not exist in the academic literature, which is a separate matter entirely. I realize that some might take this as being really a fine point, but this is more about the "Christ myth" theory, that Jesus and/or the religious Christ were a myth which may or may not have had any or much historic basis, than about another topic which is similar. However, that similar topic, about the possible mythic origins of some of the aspects of the Jesus story as it is related to us, is another matter. I am not yet myself sure that separate topic has ever been demonstrated to be notable (but I assume it is) or whether those mythic elements would necessarily be best placed here as opposed to elsewhere. That article might better be titled "Myths in the Christ story," or "Theories of Myths in the Jesus story," or something similar. Yeah, honestly, if there were such a separate article, I might myself consider moving this one to some other title myself, to make for more easy indicators of what content goes where. But that is a separate matter. This particular topic, as currently structured, is apparently notable enough, and has received enough independent attention, to merit an article somewhere, and this title was the one which was determined appropriate. If others wish to create other articles on those other topics, I wouldn't in any way disagree - in fact, I think there are a lot of subjects relating to religion of all sort we don't have covered yet. But it would probably be best to give some idea of what other topics exist first, and what titles they might have, before changing this one's title. John Carter (talk) 18:22, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
- I agree that the definition shouldn't be so wide as to include theories that merely posit mythological elements, as that includes basically all critical scholars. I was merely trying to say we shouldn't make it so narrow that it excludes people like Price. Martijn Meijering (talk) 07:03, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- Disagreed. There seems to be an assumption, which I believe is not warranted by the evidence. This title, which I admit is flawed, is the one that has, over the years, been agreed on as apparently the most neutral and common title for this particular topic, which is the academic discussion of whether or not the allegedly historical Jesus was in fact historical. It seems to me that other editors are trying to read into the title something about how the article should, by its title, incorporate content relating to other mythic elements which may or may not exist in the academic literature, which is a separate matter entirely. I realize that some might take this as being really a fine point, but this is more about the "Christ myth" theory, that Jesus and/or the religious Christ were a myth which may or may not have had any or much historic basis, than about another topic which is similar. However, that similar topic, about the possible mythic origins of some of the aspects of the Jesus story as it is related to us, is another matter. I am not yet myself sure that separate topic has ever been demonstrated to be notable (but I assume it is) or whether those mythic elements would necessarily be best placed here as opposed to elsewhere. That article might better be titled "Myths in the Christ story," or "Theories of Myths in the Jesus story," or something similar. Yeah, honestly, if there were such a separate article, I might myself consider moving this one to some other title myself, to make for more easy indicators of what content goes where. But that is a separate matter. This particular topic, as currently structured, is apparently notable enough, and has received enough independent attention, to merit an article somewhere, and this title was the one which was determined appropriate. If others wish to create other articles on those other topics, I wouldn't in any way disagree - in fact, I think there are a lot of subjects relating to religion of all sort we don't have covered yet. But it would probably be best to give some idea of what other topics exist first, and what titles they might have, before changing this one's title. John Carter (talk) 18:22, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
- Agreed. Price for example believes that some of the gospel narrative is based on narratives about Simon bar Giora and Jesus ben Ananias while the preaching is simply a historicisation of various Cynic and rabbinic teachings that were floating around at the time. Neither of these historical figures can be usefully said to have been the historical Jesus. Martijn Meijering (talk) 17:59, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
- I agree that we need a solid set of quotes regarding definition(s). Right now it's a total mess that implies that "Christ myth theory" must deny any historical basis for Jesus. For example, it's quite possible to regard Jesus as having been a historical figure with a lot of motifs from myth and folklore stacked up around him, see, for example, the Jefferson bible, and then there's discussion in classical studies regarding how much the cult of Dionysus influenced the figure of Jesus—but this doesn't quality as "Christ myth theory"? If not, then what? :bloodofox: (talk) 12:25, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
- On one of the many previous occasions that this issue arose, the article John proposes, "Myths in the Christ story", was in fact created. It was named Jesus Christ in comparative mythology. The creator, user:Dbachmann, hoped that the creation of a separate article would clear up the distinction between the two topics. Unfortunately the new article became something of a dumping ground for idiosyncratic and fringey theories of various kinds. However, it has always been clear that this article is about the "non-existance hypothesis", as it has also been called, and that the title is simply the most commonly used name for this hypothesis. The evidence for this has been repeatedly provided in the archives. It's also worth noting that altering the topic in the way bloodfox and others before him have tried to do clearly serves an ideological agenda, and is overwhelmingly promoted by editors who are sympathetic to the theory and want it to seem more reasonable and mainstream. Arguing that all allegedly "legendary" or "myth like" features of the Jesus story are properly dealt with under this heading is a way of changing the topic to achieve that result. However, it is clear that sources do not use the phrase "Jesus-Myth" or "Christ-Myth" in this way when the phrase is a proper noun describing a defined position on the life of Jesus. Most non-fundamentalist scholars argue that Jesus' life has been described in a way designed to fit a symbolic narrative, and may even use the word "myth" in the same way as we speak of the myth of the Blitz, for example. But that's not the name of a theory. It's a separate issue. When Michael Grant says "To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ myth theory. It has 'again and again been answered and annihilated by first rank scholars.'", he is using "Christ myth theory" as a proper noun, to name the theory that is the topic of this article. He is not saying that scholars have again and again "answered and annihilated" the view that there are mythic aspects to the Gospel narratives of Jesus' life, a view he would support. Paul B (talk) 19:37, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
- And, FWIW, I think it worth noting that although Michael Grant was what might be the first professional author of academic works not employed at a university, his work is still very highly regarded, with as I remember his biography of Saint Peter being counted, for instance, the best work on that subject of the 20th century, which is a fairly good commendation. John Carter (talk) 21:01, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
- On one of the many previous occasions that this issue arose, the article John proposes, "Myths in the Christ story", was in fact created. It was named Jesus Christ in comparative mythology. The creator, user:Dbachmann, hoped that the creation of a separate article would clear up the distinction between the two topics. Unfortunately the new article became something of a dumping ground for idiosyncratic and fringey theories of various kinds. However, it has always been clear that this article is about the "non-existance hypothesis", as it has also been called, and that the title is simply the most commonly used name for this hypothesis. The evidence for this has been repeatedly provided in the archives. It's also worth noting that altering the topic in the way bloodfox and others before him have tried to do clearly serves an ideological agenda, and is overwhelmingly promoted by editors who are sympathetic to the theory and want it to seem more reasonable and mainstream. Arguing that all allegedly "legendary" or "myth like" features of the Jesus story are properly dealt with under this heading is a way of changing the topic to achieve that result. However, it is clear that sources do not use the phrase "Jesus-Myth" or "Christ-Myth" in this way when the phrase is a proper noun describing a defined position on the life of Jesus. Most non-fundamentalist scholars argue that Jesus' life has been described in a way designed to fit a symbolic narrative, and may even use the word "myth" in the same way as we speak of the myth of the Blitz, for example. But that's not the name of a theory. It's a separate issue. When Michael Grant says "To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ myth theory. It has 'again and again been answered and annihilated by first rank scholars.'", he is using "Christ myth theory" as a proper noun, to name the theory that is the topic of this article. He is not saying that scholars have again and again "answered and annihilated" the view that there are mythic aspects to the Gospel narratives of Jesus' life, a view he would support. Paul B (talk) 19:37, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
Thank you everyone for your input.
So there seem to be two positions,the first that this article should be limited to the idea that Jesus never existed at all, the other that it should be about the myths etc that grew up around a historical Jesus.
The second seems to me be covered by the existing article Jesus Christ in comparative mythology - or at least it should be. That would let this article focus much more effectively on the first definition. There's also the article Historicity of Jesus to consider - like JC in comparative mythology, it has a section on Jesus as myth, and there's a lot of unnecessary repetition going on. So my suggestion now is to restrict this article to Jesus-never-existed, with Jesus-lived-but-Christianity-has-a-lot-of-myths for the other material. Martijn Meijering, since you're the major person wanting to include the second type of material in this article, how do you feel about that? PiCo (talk) 08:37, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- I explained myself badly. Like you I'm against a broad definition that includes anybody who believes there are some mythical elements, because that is so broad as to be useless, as you pointed out. I just want to qualify it a bit so that it should not exclude those who believe it contains some reworked material based on historical figures like Simon bar Giora and Jesus ben Ananias. Wells' later work is a more difficult case, since he believes the Q material does go back to a Galilean teacher. I think that should fall outside the definition, but Wells' changing view should still be mentioned as relevant to the discussion. I think Paul Barlow was the major proponent for the broader definition, but I can't find his contribution right now. Has he deleted it? Martijn Meijering (talk) 09:25, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- PiCo, the problem is if Rationalwiki's Jesus Myth theory article is accurate the term "Christ Myth theory" or its synonym has been used regarding people who were willing (Robertson and Drews) or did accept (Frazer) the existence of a flesh and blood Jesus in the 1st century but did not accept the Gospels as an accurate description of the life of that man as well as those who say there is no flesh and blood Jesus to be found. So that just mean we are going to have more POV issues on this article if we try cherry pick definitions.
- Mmeijeri, I understand your concern but Wells' current view would be Christ myth by the definition given for John Robertson ("The myth theory is not concerned to deny such a possibility. What the myth theory denies Christianity can be traced to a personal founder who taught as reported in the Gospels and was put to death in the circumstances there recorded") or by Walsh (1998) and Dodd, C.H. (1938) where the Jesus myth starts first and "reports of an obscure Jewish Holy man bearing this name" are added later.
- The problem is that the term "Christ myth theory" and all its synonyms have been applied in different ways by different authors to the point that IMHO it has really lost any real meaning. If you want to preserve NPOV you can't cherry pick which author's definitions and-or views you use and which you chuck out a window. For example, if you take Schweitzer as the definitive defender of the Historical Jesus position in the early 20th century you are also stuck with Schweitzer putting Frazer ("My theory assumes the historical reality of Jesus of Nazareth") in the "who contested the historical existence of Jesus" category as late as 1931.--216.31.124.161 (talk) 14:16, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- The "rational wiki" article is edited by Bruce Grubb, who promotes this POV unrelentingly. He has been topic-banned for his repreated misuse of sources, hasn't he Bruce? Paul B (talk) 15:35, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- The problem is that the term "Christ myth theory" and all its synonyms have been applied in different ways by different authors to the point that IMHO it has really lost any real meaning. If you want to preserve NPOV you can't cherry pick which author's definitions and-or views you use and which you chuck out a window. For example, if you take Schweitzer as the definitive defender of the Historical Jesus position in the early 20th century you are also stuck with Schweitzer putting Frazer ("My theory assumes the historical reality of Jesus of Nazareth") in the "who contested the historical existence of Jesus" category as late as 1931.--216.31.124.161 (talk) 14:16, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- Paul Barlow (talk · contribs); you state that "it's also worth noting that altering the topic in the way bloodfox and others before him have tried to do clearly serves an ideological agenda, and is overwhelmingly promoted by editors who are sympathetic to the theory and want it to seem more reasonable and mainstream." Observe WP:GOODFAITH; don't try to pick fights with other editors. It won't work to your benefit here. You need to rescind this statement and apologize immediately. I am doing nothing of the sort and you have no grounds to assume any such thing, even if doing so would somehow strengthen your position. Have a little respect for other editors here.
- Second, it's clear from this talk page that this article needs a straightforward definition that makes it completely clear what this article is about. This article is, as is stands, an incoherent, confused mess that requires unification. Just look at the opening paragraph alone:
"The Christ myth theory (also known as Jesus myth theory or Jesus mythicism and others) is the proposition that Jesus of Nazareth never existed but was invented by the Christian movement around 100 CE. The most sweeping version of the myth theories contends that there was no real historical figure Jesus and that he was invented by early Christians. Another variant holds that there was a person named Jesus, but the teachings and miracles attributed to him were invented and symbolic references. Yet another version suggests that the Jesus portrayed in the New Testament is a composite character constructed from multiple people over a period of time."
- For one, this seems contradictory. The first sentence is a flat, straightforward statement: 'in this theory, Jesus never existed'. Note that "theory" is in singular rather than plural. In sentence two, we hear about "versions" for the first time; i.e., there are multiple theories here, with a range of interpretations. The first sentence should make it clear that this theory isn't so straight forward. The rest of th article just goes on and on this way, making it unclear exactly what is being criticized and supported. Chaining together a bunch of reference tags also doesn't help; put the references together under one tag and then explain what each one says exactly. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:30, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- "Observe WP:GOODFAITH; don't try to pick fights with other editors. It won't work to your benefit here. You need to rescind this statement and apologize immediately.." blah blah blah. This is the kind of preposerous "offence finding" that frankly bores the hell out of me. There is no violation of good faith is regognising that you have a neo-paganist agenda that is manifest in your every editorial intervention. That is simply a fact. I have more trust is editors who are honest about their viewpoint than in those who immediately press the outraged-victim-of-GF-violations button, as you have done. In fact that is a form of bullying, creating a chilling effect on debate, which honest acknowledgement of the ideological conficts that fuel disputes is not. Paul B (talk) 16:43, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- Wow! And now the debate gets fragmented. Nowhere have I claimed to be a "neopagan", and you have no right nor basis to attempt to slag me off as some sort of 'nutty neopagan'. You've read Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks, right? I have no idea what you mean by "neo-paganist agenda" (!), but I suppose you can attempt to scrub up some kind of definition of whatever that might be. Anyway, when I want to talk to you about my religious beliefs, if I have any at all, I'll do so elsewhere. Meanwhile I'm waiting for that apology. Good faith isn't a suggestion, it's a policy. When you're here on Misplaced Pages, you're expected to discuss article content, not your amateur psychological profiling of editors. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:56, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- You cannot be serious. You edit from a clear discernable viewpoint. There's nothing wrong in that as such. You will wait forever for an apology, because none is required. I merely said that a particular viewpioiunt on this articxle is linked to an ideological point of view. That's true of numerous articles and is often, quite properly, openly addressed and discussed on talk pages. Paul B (talk) 17:07, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- I invite you to define what a "neo-paganist agenda" is exactly and what that "clear discernable viewpoint" is, but doing so here will only further fragment an already fragmented discussion. Your accusations and personal attacks against me don't need to be on this talk page. Instead, let's see how such behavior goes over at the administrator's noticeboard: I've opened a thread there. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:12, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- You cannot be serious. You edit from a clear discernable viewpoint. There's nothing wrong in that as such. You will wait forever for an apology, because none is required. I merely said that a particular viewpioiunt on this articxle is linked to an ideological point of view. That's true of numerous articles and is often, quite properly, openly addressed and discussed on talk pages. Paul B (talk) 17:07, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- Wow! And now the debate gets fragmented. Nowhere have I claimed to be a "neopagan", and you have no right nor basis to attempt to slag me off as some sort of 'nutty neopagan'. You've read Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks, right? I have no idea what you mean by "neo-paganist agenda" (!), but I suppose you can attempt to scrub up some kind of definition of whatever that might be. Anyway, when I want to talk to you about my religious beliefs, if I have any at all, I'll do so elsewhere. Meanwhile I'm waiting for that apology. Good faith isn't a suggestion, it's a policy. When you're here on Misplaced Pages, you're expected to discuss article content, not your amateur psychological profiling of editors. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:56, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- "Observe WP:GOODFAITH; don't try to pick fights with other editors. It won't work to your benefit here. You need to rescind this statement and apologize immediately.." blah blah blah. This is the kind of preposerous "offence finding" that frankly bores the hell out of me. There is no violation of good faith is regognising that you have a neo-paganist agenda that is manifest in your every editorial intervention. That is simply a fact. I have more trust is editors who are honest about their viewpoint than in those who immediately press the outraged-victim-of-GF-violations button, as you have done. In fact that is a form of bullying, creating a chilling effect on debate, which honest acknowledgement of the ideological conficts that fuel disputes is not. Paul B (talk) 16:43, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
I don't like to get involved in this topic, but I don't see Bloodofox as coming from a "neopagan" perspective, and agree with him on two points. First, about stringing together citations: the practice fails to show how the sources relate to each other, and in a combined note, you can make it clearer how they complement each other, or differ in nuance. More important, this article has completely lost its way. There is no longer any delimited scope to differentiate it from (as was pointed out by PiCo above) Jesus in comparative mythology and Christian mythology or questions pertaining to Historicity of Jesus. I happen to agree with Bloodofox's insistence on a mythographical approach, and with his sane and uncontroversial statement that it's quite possible to regard Jesus as having been a historical figure with a lot of motifs from myth and folklore stacked up around him. "Myth" as a synonym for "falsehood, fiction" is a lexical item, not an encyclopedia topic, and "the Christ myth" to mean "Jesus never existed" is a polemical slogan, not a scholarly methodology that can be distinguished from historicity questions. I'm inclined, however, to think this article has become a lost cause. If the scope is so impossible to define, maybe it just needs to stop existing. Or maybe it could be dismantled into articles on specific theories attached to individual scholars, or even those typically dreadful articles on a single work of scholarship. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:31, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- Firstly, my comments about bloodofox's perspective derive from long experience of his editing pattern, not from his particular intervention here. However, that's all pretty marginal. The rest of your comment stems, I think, from a serious misunderstanding of the debate. Your point about the meaning of "myth" is familiar, and, I'd suggest, irrelevant in this instance. Indeed I already addressed this point by analogy with the Myth of the Blitz. What matters is that the phrase 'Christ-Myth' theory has come to be used by scholars to refer to a particular viewpoint, also called the "non-existence hypothesis". Of course there are many variations of it, but that's a separate issue. There are multiple explanations of the supposed mythic sources for the story, but thay are all defined by the fact that the story of Jesus is best described as a myth, rather than an (in varying degrees unreliable) account of the life of a real person, whose deeds have been exaggerated. There may or may not have been a real person behind the myth of, say, Hercules/Heracles, but no-one would deny that that person is little more than a cipher, if he existed. The story of Hercules can only be approached as a myth and analysed in such terms. That Christ-Myth position takes the same view. As with Hercules, it doesn't really matter whether or not there was real person "behind" the myth, because the source of the myth is what matters. The person is just the grit that generates the pearl, unimportant in itself. Mainstream scholarship dioes not take that view at all. Paul B (talk) 17:39, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- I can't really recall editing much with Paul Barlow in the past. But it's clear that he's decided at some point that I am a "neopagan" (unclear semantic value here) and that I am operating with a "neo-paganist agenda". All very mysterious and, frankly, unwelcome. Paul, knock it off. I'll let you know when I want to have a personal chat with you about whatever my religious beliefs may be or even the lack thereof. Keep your half-baked attempts at amateur psychoanalysis of your co-editors to yourself. Meanwhile you're welcome to discuss article content, preferably with reliable sources and clearly as possible.
- Secondly, I'm with Cynwolfe here. This article is a real mess and is all over the place. That much is obvious from the talk page. I'm beginning to wonder if Paul's aggressive attitude towards other editors isn't playing some hand in this. I'm looking forward to what John Carter may be working on here. Meanwhile, it appears that other editors are going to have to expect to be jumped on and attacked by Paul Barlow if they want to put some time in this. It might be wise to, as John Carter states elsewhere, to begin working on another version of this article in a sandbox and then see how it goes from there if any progress is going to be made. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:52, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- I only see one person trying to ratchet up personal conflict here, and only one person with an "aggressive attitude towards other editors" determined to concentrate on such issues. It is not helpful. Paul B (talk) 18:52, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- Keep your discussion on the edits and not the editors and we'll get along just fine, Paul. :bloodofox: (talk) 18:55, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- PiCo was pointing out a problem with a definition which Bloodfox created, which is why PiCo then reverted it: . Of course it is possible to regard Jesus as a historical figure with myths associated with him. That is the position of every Early Christian historian. Of course that is not with what this article is dealing. This article is dealing with the fringe position that Jesus of Nazareth did not exist. Taking that statement by itself, is it entirely clear how to interpret it? No. But that's true for every definition. The definition just has to be an accurate reflection of the reliable sources under a normal interpretation, not under every interpretation. If a reader needs more clarification, she will have to read more. This is the case for pretty much every topic: What is metaphysics? What is a game? You won't know exactly what metaphysics or a game is by reading the first sentence of an encyclopedia article. The same is true here for Jesus mythicism. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 18:01, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- To be clear, the sentence was adjusted to agree with the sentence after it. They still make no sense together. Then again, neither does much of this article when taken as a whole. What this seciton clearly demands is a section on terminology and usage, detailing exactly who has said what and where; if there's one thing this talk page makes clear, it's that we need definitions for this page to make any sense at all. :bloodofox: (talk) 18:06, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- Does this change make more sense: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Christ_myth_theory&diff=567851191&oldid=567637339 --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 18:35, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- It makes more sense than the previous version, but consider the two sentences together. According to the first sentence, it's just a single, straight-forward theory. Then the next sentence says that it's more complicated than that but doesn't really say how, just implying that it has 'levels of intensity' ("sweeping"). We also need some sort of link to Jesus Christ in comparative mythology due to the current confusion regarding the title. :bloodofox: (talk) 18:47, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- Does this change make more sense: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Christ_myth_theory&diff=567851191&oldid=567637339 --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 18:35, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- To be clear, the sentence was adjusted to agree with the sentence after it. They still make no sense together. Then again, neither does much of this article when taken as a whole. What this seciton clearly demands is a section on terminology and usage, detailing exactly who has said what and where; if there's one thing this talk page makes clear, it's that we need definitions for this page to make any sense at all. :bloodofox: (talk) 18:06, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
I like putting the link to the comp myth article in a hatnote. To address the point Paul made with the Hercules example, in fact we don't occupy the article Herakles or any of the related articles such as Labours of Hercules with lengthy discussions about whether there really was such a person, and whether he could actually hold the world on his shoulders. We describe the myths of Herakles, and particularly in the case of Hercules in ancient Rome, we describe the religious practices associated with the figure. In other words, we take more or less an approach of social constructivism: that the meaning or reality of Herakles is socially constructed, and independent of a fact-fiction dichotomy. When I search "Christ myth", I get a lot of polemical books, most of which use the phrase merely provocatively to mean "Jesus Christ never existed, and I'm gonna prove it". The hatnote at historicity of Jesus, however, seems to make a useful distinction that this article should be about the mythical Christ—that is, not an argument that "Jesus never existed, and here's why", but rather a mythographically sophisticated approach along the lines of "According to Christ myth theory, the narratives pertaining to Jesus of Nazareth provide a mythical rather than historical basis for Christianity." I also find the use of the word "invent" in the intro to be misleading and polemical. From a perspective of history of religions or mythography, it's naive, and implies the deliberate fabrication of a story at a particular time and place. That, however, is how a fiction is created, not a myth, which develops in complex, organic relation to a belief system. (I could make comparisons with Mithraic studies: It would be beyond blockheaded to explore the development of that mythos as a question of whether Mithras ever existed, or as an attempt to discover the individual founder.) The non-technical use of the word "myth" as a synonym for "fiction, lie, fabrication" calls the scholarly methodology into question, because it reveals that the scholar isn't actually concerned with myth in the first place, but rather with the question of historicity. But those questions belong at Historicity of Jesus, which obviously should not be an assemblage of evidence to support the view that Jesus was historical, but rather a neutral examination of the nature of the historical evidence. There's a fundamental distinction between the kinds of questions that can be addressed through methodologies pertaining to myth and those pertaining to history. That seems blurred here, and that's why I no longer understand the scope of this article. Cynwolfe (talk) 19:33, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- More specifically, if we want an article on the "non-existence hypothesis", as Paul called it above, we should have an article called Non-existence of Jesus hypothesis, or something. As anyone who's ever gone near Creation myth knows, you can't get anywhere unless you're clear that "myth" is a field of intellectual inquiry with specific methodologies. Cynwolfe (talk) 20:02, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- As a practical matter, if you are even slightly skeptical of the historicity of Jesus, you're branded a mythicist. So, a number of scholars believe there was an itinerant preacher, associated with miracle work (not rare at that time), who is the closest to being identifiable as Jesus. But, they feel it isn't historically valid to identify him as Jesus. They are branded "mythicist." Strangesad (talk) 20:08, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
I agree with above comments that the article is confused and problematic. I think this comes down to a major excluded middle problem.
The article gives the impression of having been partly written as a polemic intended to convince the reader that Jesus existed. I'm not accusing any editor or editors of having done this deliberately. Fact is, most of the sourcing on this topic is likely to be polemical one way or another (i.e. you will not find many floating voters specialising in this area). So, if an article is constructed using the sources too uncritically, it is likely to itself end up as a mish-mash of polemic.
The article appears to set out a formal argument that academic opinion favours the existence of Jesus, by listing the four positions on the question it is possible to take Christ_myth_theory#Variations_on_a_theme. The first of these says that Jesus did not exist, but it is unpopular with experts. The other three say that Jesus existed. Ergo, dear reader, Jesus existed.
Except it skips a possible stance that it ought to have considered. It is not really possible to be sure whether Jesus did or didn't exist - it is a question of probability which is not properly amenable to analysis. I would say that this is the most commonsense position, and would certainly emerge as the mainstream position among historians, had we the resources to run a survey, even if it is one less frequently argued for in sources (because, if you take this position, you are not likely to write books arguing one way or another about the existence of Jesus).
So, the Jesus existed/Jesus didn't exist debate represents only two poles of a spectrum. But, on the question of the status of the be debate, the article only seems to be interested in what participants in that debate have to say. But they are obviously not the best witnesses. The article needs badly to take greater account of outside views and commentary. Formerip (talk) 21:27, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- There's no real reason that this article should contain the Christ_myth_theory#Variations_on_a_theme section. All that's needed is a brief statement of the academic consensus that there was a historical Jesus about whom the New Testament provides some biographical information (at a minimum, that he lived in Palestine in the early 1st century CE). Detailed statements about the range of opinions about the historical Jesus belong in the (you guessed it) historical Jesus article. --Akhilleus (talk) 21:53, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- I trust your judgment on this, Akhilleus, but if I understand your following comment correctly, I'm all the more convinced that the article is a misbegotten POV fork, and has no reason to exist independently of Historicity of Jesus. Cynwolfe (talk) 04:38, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
The subject of this article and the title of this article
Aargh, not this dispute again. What this article is about is the idea/theory/hypothesis/proposition that there was no historical Jesus, and the stories about Jesus in the New Testament are fiction. Famous proponents of this view, beginning with Bruno Bauer and Arthur Drews, are covered by this article. Drews wrote a series of books about this idea, which he called die Christus-mythe, in English translation "Christ myth". Writers following upon Drews (or refuting him) variously refer to the Christ-myth, the Christ Myth Theory, the Myth Theory, and so on, to refer to the idea of Jesus' ahistoricity. Modern proponents tend to call themselves Mythicists, and refer to the idea as Mythicism or Jesus Mythicism. Cynwolfe is quite right to indicate above that the use of "myth" in this sense is non-technical and non-academic, but the idea of Jesus' ahistoricity is itself non-academic. This line of thought uses the word "myth" in its most simplistic sense, as fabrication, partially because the idea springs from a simplistic analysis of the evidence of the New Testament. Van Voorst's coinage "non-existence hypothesis" is great, but no one uses it but him. WP:NAME indicates that an article about the non-historicity idea has to use "myth" in the title.
As I've said many times, looking at the title and deciding what the subject should be based on the meaning of the words in the title isn't a good idea here. There is a coherent subject--the idea that there was no historical Jesus. There's an identifiable body of proponents of this view--most are listed and covered in the article as we have it. There is academic coverage of the subject--aside from early 20th-century treatments, there's the recent book by Bart Ehrman, a forthcoming book by Maurice Casey. It's true there isn't *much* academic coverage compared to other aspects of the study of the historical Jesus/early Christianity, but that's precisely because the non-existence idea is such a non-issue in academic publishing.
Also, I don't understand Strangesad's post above...who's an example of scholars who "believe there was an itinerant preacher, associated with miracle work (not rare at that time)..." but "it isn't historically valid to identify him as Jesus"? --Akhilleus (talk) 21:47, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- Wells and Elgard. Strangesad (talk) 02:56, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
- So where does that leave Price's position that some stories about real historical figures may have been reworked into stories about a fictional character called Jesus? Is that a CMT? Martijn Meijering (talk) 22:11, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think so. The key is that Jesus is a fictional character; the materials used to fabricate him vary according to the myth theorist. However, I think that Price has been either unclear or slippery about exactly what he thinks--often, it seems as if he's saying the CMT is a interesting/plausible/likely idea, rather than something that he definitely believes. --Akhilleus (talk) 22:14, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- In his podcasts he is quite clear that he doesn't rule out that there was a historical Jesus and certainly doesn't regard it as a ridiculous theory. If there was a historical jesus, Price thinks he was probably something like a Zealot, as proposed by SGF Brandon. However, on balance he finds it more probable that Jesus is a later historicisation of an originally mythical Christ-figure. Martijn Meijering (talk) 22:53, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think so. The key is that Jesus is a fictional character; the materials used to fabricate him vary according to the myth theorist. However, I think that Price has been either unclear or slippery about exactly what he thinks--often, it seems as if he's saying the CMT is a interesting/plausible/likely idea, rather than something that he definitely believes. --Akhilleus (talk) 22:14, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
Back to definitions: I'm not trying to railroad anyone here, but I think that if I don't edit boldly nothing will happen.
I've re-written the lead using the narrowest possible definition, sourced to Voorst. (Ehrman's definition is longer but essentially says the same thing). The rest of the lead, which I felt was over-long and inclined to argue cases instead of simply present them, I've replaced with a brief historical overview from Voorst, including his summary of the three major arguments used by mythicists from Bauer onwards. At the top of the article I've expanded the existing hat-note to direct readers to other articles on associated but different aspects of the study of the historical/mythological Jesus and the reliability of information about him.
This at least will give everyone the chance to criticise something concrete :) PiCo (talk) 03:12, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
It's been drawn to my attention that, according to my user=page,I'm retired from Wiki. How very true. This will be my last post. Best of luck :) PiCo (talk) 05:58, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
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