| Revision as of 07:28, 13 August 2013 editMigang2g (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users1,371 edits →Continued OR violations← Previous edit | Revision as of 07:45, 13 August 2013 edit undoMigang2g (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users1,371 edits →Continued OR violationsNext edit → | ||
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| If you delete every data I used, people will not be able to opine, then, although you think you have the truth, please don’t delete them again. It's neccesary people see the data to debate it, wikipedia is not a tyranny. You must see my answers |
If you delete every data I used, people will not be able to opine, then, although you think you have the truth, please don’t delete them again. It's neccesary people see the data to debate it, wikipedia is not a tyranny. You must see first my answers. | ||
| *In USA, you deleted the source about the Spanish speakers as a first language. It’s a direct source from the . There isn’t any discussion here, but you deleted. | *In USA, you deleted the source about the Spanish speakers as a first language. It’s a direct source from the . There isn’t any discussion here, but you deleted. | ||
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| You also deleted the Hispanic immigrants in the European Union. Why? In the study says that there are 2,397,380 immigrants from Spain or Latin America who they are Spanish speakers as a first language. I did the same but specifying immigrants in each country, and the sum is less than 2.4 | You also deleted the Hispanic immigrants in the European Union. Why? In the study says that there are 2,397,380 immigrants from Spain or Latin America who they are Spanish speakers as a first language. I did the same but specifying immigrants in each country, and the sum is less than 2.4 | ||
| million. | million. | ||
| At least, data from Eurobarometer or the direct sources can not be delete. This is the reason I inserted my original research. You delete data indiscriminately. | |||
| --] (]) 07:23, 13 August 2013 (UTC) | --] (]) 07:23, 13 August 2013 (UTC) | ||
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Spanish as the 'Second most studied foreign language after English'
Some of your references state the contrary : "Los más estudiados hoy, por este orden, son el inglés, el francés, el español y el alemán." And that is an extract of a report from the Cervantes Institute, which promotes Spanish internationally (as you may guess, it is not biased in favor of French language).
French keeps being the second most studied foreign language in the world nowadays (see for instance). Please correct that factual error. Thank you.
--193.51.4.219 (talk) 15:22, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
French keeps being the second most studied foreign language in the world nowadays, French second language in international communication, after English, in the world! Counny (talk) 15:16, 14 June 2012 (CEST)
- The cited references clearly support Spanish as being second most. If you wish to label it as third, then you would need to do more research with reliable references to support your claim. Otherwise, reverting is improper behavior. Whatever the reliable references support is what the article should reflect, not what you or I wish it to say. That's how we approach WP:NPOV. See also WP:V. - Taxman 16:04, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
It is lived as a tragedy by many Frech people the fact that English surpassed French as the international language during the 20th century and now Spanish is doing the same. It is a shame, maybe. I myself speak French and find it a beautiful language. The US is a dramatic example of the switch from Studying French to Spanish in the latest decades. John. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.32.244.73 (talk) 17:31, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
- People consult an encyclopedia for facts, not opinions. In the statement about the ranking of Spanish among world languages, the word "arguably" is a signal that the statement is not firmly supported by facts. Another signal is that 3 of the 4 cited sources are boosters with a vested interest in promoting Spanish:
- A university language department promoting its product. No basis given for the statement. Delete.
- Also a boosterist source, but at least it cites a speech by director of Instituto Cervantes.
- Also a booster, but, even better, names the source person, "la directora del Instituto Cervantes, Carmen Caffarel".
- A newspaper, the only ostensibly neutral source of the four, but no basis given for the statement.
- If someone could at least find and cite the original report by Caffarel, that would be an improvement. An even greater improvement would be to cite an _disinterested_ source.
- Please, either back the statement with unbiased data (and delete "arguably"), or delete the statement.
- This question in particular needs better support, since it is obviously an emotional issue. Kotabatubara (talk) 19:58, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
- French is just too hard to learn by average people (I became furious with my father when he chose it instead of English as his third language – what kind of Brazilian doesn't speak Spanish in an at least intermediate level? LOL – in 2009, oh that old anti-American commie). West Iberian languages are just a bit more complicated than English. Furthermore, there is way more Spanish-speaking people in the world. Outside West Africa and a part of Western Europe, French won't help you in countries highly visible in the tourism industry and/or with big, emerging economies that also happen to be mostly populated by individuals not very good with English (everyday I remember unadvised English-speaking people raging in Rio de Janeiro because of our general lack of anything other than portunhol and bad pidgin... And we're in the top 5 of Latin American global cities as well #1 tourist destination).
- Nowadays, French is useful if you intend to immigrate, more like an Italian that had success in expanding itself to a place other than Europe, apart of its large cultural heritage due to its dominance for such a long time... and just it. Not even for tourism it is necessary, as you can well survive two or three months in France with English plus portuñol.
- I know I am naturally biased, but Portuguese would be an actual awesome choice. If you speak Portuguese, you naturally has knowledge in Spanish, though the reverse is everything but true. Also, nothing against the hermanos or their language, but most people like more the flavor of ours... their biggest novelist and poet said it was the sweet one. Just kidding! Lguipontes (talk) 22:53, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
Lguipontes, you are right. I live close to the Portuguese border in Spain and virtually all Portuguese people understand and speak Spanish relatively well. In fact, we all know that both languages are extremely similar (in fact I doubt that there are other two languages in the world that are more similar) but the sound system of Portuguese somehow makes it easier for Portuguese speaking people to understand Spanish than vice-versa. I often point out this interesting fact but a lot of ignorant people try often to downplay this fact. Why? Probably because Portuguese is Spoken by more than 200 million people and adding it up to Spanish results in a linguistic community of mor than 600 million speakers. You and millions of Portuguese speaking people know that this is a fact. I, who also speak Portuguese, know that this is a fact. Who else knows or ignores it? You can actually either learn Portuguese or Spanish and you will have access to a huge pan-Iberian linguistic community of more than 600 million people over huge territories, but it is true that it will be easier if you learn Portuguese first. Pipo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.203.72 (talk) 03:52, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
- in fact I doubt that there are other two languages in the world that are more similar Heh. How about Russian and Ukrainian, for instance? Or, to remain in the region, Portuguese and Asturian/Leonese (to say nothing of Portuguese and Galician, though this case is questionable as Galician is closer to Northern Portuguese than Standard Portuguese is). --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:25, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
Galician and Portuguese are virtually the same language. About Russian and Ukranian I do not know, but if they are so similar as Spanish and Portuguese or more, then they are very similar indeed! Pipo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.203.97.65 (talk) 02:01, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
New interesting book that maybe useful for artile.
New interesting book on Spanish.
Cut and pasted from introduction:
Just how did a dialect spoken by a handful of shepherds in Northern Spain become the world’s second most spoken language, the official language of twenty-one countries on two continents, and the unofficial second language of the United States? Jean-Benoît Nadeau and Julie Barlow, the husband-and-wife team who chronicled the history of the French language in The Story of French, now look at the roots and spread of modern Spanish. Full of surprises and honed in Nadeau and Barlow’s trademark style, combining personal anecdote, reflections, and deep research, The Story of Spanish is the first full biography of a language that shaped the world we know, and the only global language with two names—Spanish and Castilian.
The story starts when the ancient Phoenicians set their sights on “The Land of the Rabbits,” Spain’s original name, which the Romans pronounced as Hispania. The Spanish language would pick up bits of Germanic culture, a lot of Arabic, and even some French on its way to taking modern form just as it was about to colonize a New World. Through characters like Queen Isabella, Christopher Columbus, Cervantes, and Goya, The Story of Spanish shows how Spain’s Golden Age, the Mexican Miracle, and the Latin American Boom helped shape the destiny of the language. Other, more somber episodes, also contributed, like the Spanish Inquisition, the expulsion of Spain’s Jews, the destruction of native cultures, the political instability in Latin America, and the dictatorship of Franco.
The Story of Spanish shows there is much more to Spanish than tacos, flamenco, and bullfighting. It explains how the United States developed its Hispanic personality from the time of the Spanish conquistadors to Latin American immigration and telenovelas. It also makes clear how fundamentally Spanish many American cultural artifacts and customs actually are, including the dollar sign, barbecues, ranching, and cowboy culture. The authors give us a passionate and intriguing chronicle of a vibrant language that thrived through conquests and setbacks to become the tongue of Pedro Almodóvar and Gabriel García Márquez, of tango and ballroom dancing, of millions of Americans and hundreds of millions of people throughout the world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.203.97.65 (talk) 00:17, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
- I'm sure there's a lot of good stuff in this book, but no way for the naive reader to distinguish the good stuff from the erroneous stuff. I read it to about p. 24 and gave up in disgust. For a nitpicking reader like me, there were too many wrong statements about phonetics, mixups of Spanish words with Latin ones, etc. Even the chemistry is sloppy: on page 12 it refers to the Río Tinto in Spain as having "a very high pH level". I got suspicious and looked up Río Tinto in Misplaced Pages. Sure enough, it remarks on the acidity (pH 2) of the river (high acidity = low pH). I wrote a letter to St. Martin's Press, urging them to edit more carefully. Any information you get from this book, I urge you to verify in sources written by experts, not by popularizers. Kotabatubara (talk) 01:54, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
.
How can be spanish de jure in spain?????? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.182.141.243 (talk) 15:03, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
- De jure means that it is has legal status as official language established in the constitution. However it is not the only official language as regional languages (basque, catalan, galician. asturian, leonese etc.) have coofficial status in their regions. Indeed in some regions administration is carried out mostly in regional languages. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:17, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
Rampant OR
The table in section 5.5 "Spanish speakers by country" contains some of the worst OR violations I've ever seen in an article of this kind. The table seems fine for the countries where Spanish is an official language, as everything is sourced. For most of the countries, the table is a complete mess. There are many countries for which no source at all is given for the number of supposed Spanish speakers. Even for the countries with some source or another, there is never any source for the percentage. Apparently someone took a population figure from one source, then a number for Spanish speakers from a different source and proceeded to calculate the percentage themselves, apparently not aware that that is a clear breach of OR. I have removed the countries for which not all data can be sourced. Massive OR violations of this kind is usually only found in minor articles that few people read, I was amazed to find them here.Jeppiz (talk) 21:09, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not questioning your action on the table, but, um, could you say what "OR" is, for a few of us who don't know? Kotabatubara (talk) 01:44, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
- Of course, WP:OR is "original research", in other words "facts" that are not properly sourced. It may be correct or it may be false, that doesn't really matter as Misplaced Pages is not about the WP:TRUTH but about reliable sources WP:RS. For the countries I removed, some data were reliable, such as the population of each country (although that too was poorly sourced) but a large part of the data for each removed country was not sourced at all (in most of the cases) or not sourced using a reliable source (only a few cases).Jeppiz (talk) 07:56, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
Continued OR violations
A user recently added most of the OR data back into the article. Once again, I remind all users of WP:RS and WP:OR. It is not ok to take a population number from one source, combine it with a population or a percentage from another source and then present it as a fact. To be quite clear Everytime we calculate a number ourselves, we violate WP:OR. What is more, sourced should not be used to source other information than what they are intended for. If a source says how many people have studied Spanish in a country, then the source says only that. It does not say how many Spanish speakers there are in the country. Some people will have moved there, some will have left, some might have forgotten their Spanish, some might have learned it while living abroad etc. Jeppiz (talk) 16:03, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
User Migang2g insists on inserting his original research, violating Misplaced Pages's policies. Instead of removing, I have now tagged all information that is not properly sourced. If no source is given for them, those data should then be removed and reinserting them again would start to look like vandalism. Apart from tagging the data with no source at all, I've also removed sources that do not satisfy WP:RS and explained why for the first six countries in the list below.
- A source of how many Hispanics there are in the US (second column) is not the same as a source of how many Spanish speakers there are.
- The number of good speakers in the US (third column) seems to be Migang2g's own calculation. No source gives the number quoted in the column.
- For Brazil, it seems we are again dealing with Migang2g's own calculations in the second and third column.
- For France, Migang2g uses the Eurobarometer to give population figures. Obvious WP:OR as the Eurobarometer never gives any such figures, it only gives percentages.
- Same thing for Italy, all the figures are calculated by Migang2g.
- For Morocco, Migang2g again takes sources and make them say something else than they say, and he calcuates his own data again.
I see no point in going on for every country, as these six countries are indicative of the rest. Migang2g is consistently falsifying data, calculating his own figures and using sources to say something else than they say.Jeppiz (talk) 13:16, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
If you delete every data I used, people will not be able to opine, then, although you think you have the truth, please don’t delete them again. It's neccesary people see the data to debate it, wikipedia is not a tyranny. You must see first my answers.
- In USA, you deleted the source about the Spanish speakers as a first language. It’s a direct source from the US census Bureau. There isn’t any discussion here, but you deleted.
The next figure is 43.7 million people who speak Spanish very well. The source of Pewhispanic says that 82% of the Hispanic people in USA speak Spanish very well, and the Hispanic population is 53.3 million according to US census Bureau. If I can claim both data because both data have own their sources, mathematics says that 82% of 53.3 million = 43.7 million. Readers can see that the figure is the combination of two sources, because is specified beside the figure with the reference number. But It isn't my own calculation. I didn’t make a statistic study to calculate the population of USA or the percentage of the population who speak Spanish very well.
Finally I used 7.8 million Spanish students. The students are frecuently used to talk about the speakers of a language. Arab for example is studied in the schools. Practically don't have a first language speakers. About English speakers, this wikipededia says that there are 1,500 million speakers, because there are 750 million speakers as a foreign language. It's a source from the British Council. In the Encyclopedia Britannica you can find similar figure. Of course It's included English students. Anyway I gave sources that talks about 50 million speakers. Instituto Cervantes (page 6) says that there are 37 million speakers as first language and 15 million speak Spanish with limited knowledge.
- About European Union countries I used a direct source. It’s not the combination of two sources. The eurobarometer give us the population older than 15 years old of each country (page TS2), and the percentage of the population of these countries who speak Spanish enough to be able a conversation (Page T64). For example for France, eurobarometer says that 14% of 47,756,439 can keep a Spanish conversation. It’s the same to say that 6,685,901 can keep a conversation. You have to check also the pages T40, T46 and T74.
- About Brazil, I used a direct source from Instituto Cervantes (page 6). This source says that there are 12 million speakers with limited knowledges. Its not my calculation.
- About Morocco, I used a direct source, however the source says that there are between 4 and 7 million speakers, and I used 5.5 to have a concret figure. Maybe this figure could change it for a concreter data.
You also deleted the Hispanic immigrants in the European Union. Why? In the study Demografía de la Lengua española (page 37) says that there are 2,397,380 immigrants from Spain or Latin America who they are Spanish speakers as a first language. I did the same but specifying immigrants in each country, and the sum is less than 2.4 million.
At least, data from Eurobarometer or the direct sources can not be delete. This is the reason I inserted my original research. You delete data indiscriminately.
--Migang2g (talk) 07:23, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
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