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Transphobia on Misplaced Pages

Hello,

I realise that this may be construed as a violation of my current (and hopefully to be rescinded) topic ban, but as a trans editor, I cannot simply sit and watch as Talk:Chelsea Manning is used as a platform for transphobic statements. On my twitter, I've collected several quotes from Misplaced Pages editors, including one administrator. This sort of behaviour, and the current systemic bias against trans people, has to stop. Selected quotes include:

• "By all means he can have surgery, wear women's clothes or have himself transformed into a dolphin, but leave wikipedia out of it."
• "Manning is a convicted criminal, and I couldn't care less about him/her/it."
• "If he (not she) said he wanted to be black now, would you describe him as African-American??"
• "And he could say he wants to be called Minnie Mouse, for all we care, but that don't make it so."
• "I don't think this project should be running around willy-nilly just because someone woke up this morning and said "today I am a girl!"."
• "I could declare myself as the King of England, but it doesn't mean Misplaced Pages will suddenly refer to me as His Majesty."
• "It is not an "opinion" that men have XY sex chromosomes and women have XX sex chromosomes — it is a biological fact."
• "Misplaced Pages is about FACTS not gay-lobby propaganda."
• "Why not use "it" until gender has been legally established?"
• "What would you do if s/he self-identified as a dog, cat, broomstick, or banana then? Self-identification is not the same as legal identity"
• "If I wake up in the morning and decide I am a woman, it doesn't make it so. This absolutely reeks of political correctness."
• "This dude is named Bradley Manning until officially recognized by the courts. Chelsea is what we would call a nickname."

This is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to anti-transgender editing on Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Sexology allowed a tendentious fringe theorist who subscribes to the theory that lesbian trans women are men who are attracted to the thought of themselves as woman to continue editing. This is an encyclopedia which has had similar problems before, on Chaz Bono and Laura Jane Grace. We desperately need to do something about it, as the net result will drive prospective trans editors off. Sceptre 02:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

(ec) I can't defend every quote, but bear in mind that I was astonished to see people saying that our policy is to change the entire article, beginning to end, to reference "she" in every regard, even using "sister" in descriptions of early childhood. If we are to be enlightened and not transphobic, we should respect there may be people who choose to change genders a couple of times every month. But would that respect extend to rewriting their Misplaced Pages articles, beginning to end, each time? There is a principle here, opposed to "WP:Recentism", that a fact that is true, or a historical perspective that is accurate, should continue to be so in the future. Wnt (talk) 07:06, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to see an example or three before thinking this apparent hypothetical was in fact likely to be a serious problem - David Gerard (talk) 07:36, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Right at the beginning of Wendy Carlos there is a passage which uses "she" in reference to that person's early childhood. Mangoe (talk) 13:58, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I think David was talking about examples of "people who choose to change genders a couple of times every month". Diego Moya (talk) 22:56, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Almost every comment of user User:Baseball Bugs on Talk:Chelsea Manning is blatant example of intentional and disruptive trolling.--В и к и T 07:44, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

It really has been. Practically every comment he's made there (and in several other places where there are discussions going on) has been incredibly offensive. Silverseren 08:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Some of these comments are quite funny when presented in an appropriate way (which he often doesn't). With a bit more work User:Baseball Bugs could become our resident Comedian. Count Iblis (talk) 12:32, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

The project is not a practice field for comedian want a bees. We don't want or need a freaking resident comedian. Wasn't Bugs banned from ANI for his constant jokes and commentary? He has been doing this crap for years. If you want a good laugh, go to a comedy club, this isn't that. --Malerooster (talk) 13:31, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

You are right, but we could use a bit more fun. The problem is fundamentally caused by BB presenting his comments in a way that makes people to take them seriously when they shouldn't (i.e. even if Misplaced Pages had different rules that would allow people making jokes at AN/I, BB's behavior would still be a problem). Count Iblis (talk) 15:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

If you want more fun, you could say Julian Assange has a reputation for meeting "new young girls" (just kidding), but BB's many jokes at wp:ANI were more like wp:DE disruptive editing of a talk-page, as too much distraction. -Wikid77 23:33, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• The thing is, Misplaced Pages:Article titles trumps a style guide or a particular wikiproject's desires. We can certainly make mention in the article that "Bradley Manning" wishes to be a girl and wants to be addressed as "Chelsea", as it is quite the notable topic. But being notable for wanting to be a girl doesn't actually make it so, and it sure as hell should not have led to a knee-jerk page move and a find-and-replace of "he" to "she" throughout the article. That's not reality; that's activism. Tarc (talk) 12:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I support the move and change, but having said that it's worth acknowledging that "transphobia" (which clearly present in some comments, sadly) isn't the only possible grounds for opposing the change, or opposing some particular details of the change. By the nature of our language, it's tricky to figure out how to correctly refer to someone who identifies as female now, but who identified as male at the time of notable activity. That's just a hard editorial problem, and no cause for high levels of emotion.

As a supporter of the move, I'll also note that it is interesting, and not in a good way, that this move was accomplished almost immediately while other 'name' issues are resolved incorrectly for great lengths of time. We ought to very strongly defer to how people identify themselves, but for various pedantic reasons, some editors insist on calling people by names that they very strongly reject. I consider that a BLP issue of some seriousness.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:33, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I appreciate, Jimmy, that you recognize that disagreeing with someone is not enough to slap labels on them such as "transphobic." I have my reservations with the change, especially its speed, but if Manning keeps the identity long enough, it will probably lose its controversial nature. However, the discussion was/is valid because of conflicting policies.Thelmadatter (talk) 13:42, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Has the name change been done legally? I can't see how we can change the name if it isn't done in an official capacity off Misplaced Pages.--MONGO 14:22, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

No it hasn't, but that's irrelevant - Misplaced Pages uses the WP:COMMONNAME, not the legal name. See, for example, Cat Stevens or Peter Sutcliffe. GiantSnowman 14:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

There's clearly a discrepancy between WP:COMMONNAME and MOS:IDENTITY in this case, which should probably be looked at when all this has died down. I suppose you could meet both by having the article at Bradley Manning, including that they self-identify as Chelsea Manning, and using female pronouns. Black Kite (talk) 14:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

@Black Kite - re "WP:COMMONNAME and MOS:IDENTITY" - Just as a point of order, I think MOS:IDENT says we should use the pronoun "she" if that's what the subject wants. I don't think MOS:IDENT says we have to change the article title. NickCT (talk) 16:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

It should be noted that editor Sceptic was blocked (apparently for 12 hours) for making the post that opened this thread, and that there is discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard#Request_for_lift_of_topic_ban. I had the impression that posts like this, here, are sort of protected speech (and said so, there). Not meaning to change the topic of this discussion / comments about the topic ban should be made at the wp:AN thread. --doncram 14:48, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

To clarify, Jimbo's statement supporting the move seems to be supporting the return of the article to "Bradley", from "Chelsea", where it had been moved. Maybe everyone understood this. --doncram 14:53, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Only for values of "seems" that are very similar to "can be misread as". --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Okay i guess i was completely wrong. There is a current RM ongoing, but I gather now that Jimbo's statement about "I support the move and change" was about the previous move from Bradley to Chelsea. Sorry for my confusion. --doncram 16:03, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

No worries! I highly commend you for being one of the few (the only?) persons in this mess who changes his or her opinion based on facts ;-). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:44, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Only focussing on official name changes is problematic. It would mean that while we have to move Shaparova to Sugarpova during the US open if the Florida Supreme Court gives the green light for that, we can't call Manning the way she wants herself to be called. Count Iblis (talk) 15:00, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Just to throw in my two cents here, this issue has got too hopeless wrapped up in the "trans" debate for anyone to think rationally about it. My feeling is that we should try our best to treat trans BLPs exactly the same as we treat every darn other BLP. We should be careful not to give less deference to Manning than we normally would, but we should also be careful not to give him any more deference than usual. WP:COMMONNAME strikes me as the obvious policy to follow here. The core principle surrounding WP:V is that my opinion about what Manning should be called does not matter. Neither does Jimbo's or anyone else's. All that matters is what the sources are calling Manning. WP should try to reflect the majority of verifiable reliable sources (period). If that ends up "offending" anybody, tough cookies. That's life. NickCT (talk) 16:51, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

NickCT, while I'm very much sympathetic with the notion that what I/we (personally, as a matter of personal ethics) think someone should be called isn't a primary determinant, I think the issue is more complex than the simplistic mantras that often surround WP:V. One of the many reasons that I, and others, campaigned against the simple formulation of "verifiability, not truth" is that very often real editorial judgment calls have to be made by us, when the sources are unclear or in flux. While of course it is important to take into consideration that Misplaced Pages is not a crystal ball it seems very likely that for the next few weeks there will be confusion and conflict in reliable sources. My guess is that some more socially conservative reliable sources may well refuse to ever recognize the name change, and some more socially liberal ones will recognize it and carry it into force completely with immediate effect. Our article should in some useful fashion convey to the reader the full context of that state of affairs, but ultimately by the design of the software, the article has to ultimately be at one particular name, with the other made into a redirect. When do we make the change? That's a judgment call where WP:V is going to offer very very little guidance.

Here's my ultimate philosophical point - we deliberately constrain ourselves to some extent with policies like WP:V. But we can also WP:IAR when in our thoughtful editorial judgment it is wise to do so. Since WP:V is going to give little guidance for the next couple of weeks, we can and should and must make a judgment (which may well end up mistaken) about how things will shake out. I think in six months time the vast majority of RS will call him Chelsea, which is why I support the change.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:06, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Mr. Wales, Sir. Very much appreciate the response. The care, consideration and personal attention you pay to these matters is a light and inspiration to us all.

re "I think in six months time the vast majority of RS will call him Chelsea" - I think you might very well be correct. So why not change the name to Chelsea in six months time? Changing it now just makes it look like WP is soapboxing.

You must forgive me sir, but I think at the end of the day, I am a "verifiability, not truth"er. Despite that, I am, and will remain, your most humble and obedient servant, NickCT (talk) 18:49, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

"One of the many reasons that I, and others, campaigned against the simple formulation of "verifiability, not truth" is that very often real editorial judgment calls have to be made by us, when the sources are unclear or in flux." I hadn't thought of it in these terms, but very much like we have an "ignore the rules if it improves the article" guideline, we changed WP:V for the very reason that it had been suggesting that truth is not important. Some things can only be verified through the subject themselves and we cannot be so wrapped up in our own policies, guidelines and procedures that we forget the fact that not all information that is accurate will be found documented in reliable sources, especially BLP information. The old way of thinking had always been: "If it isn't in a reliable source it cannot be mentioned". That is simply no longer the case and I'm not even sure if it was really ever the case. Some information should ignore the documentation, especially if the documentation is wrong. And we know documentation is wrong very often or just missing/destroyed. If we have an outright statement from the subject that we know is them, yes, we should add the information. Also, Baseball Bugs should reign in the humor if it is getting offensive to other editors. No offense to BB, but he shouldn't let all these discussion of this topic make them become insensitive to others. I know BB does not do anything intentionally. At least in discussions of this topic in the past, they have never demonstrated a clear lack of civility of the issue.--Mark 18:58, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

As a supporter of the move, I'll also note that it is interesting, and not in a good way, that this move was accomplished almost immediately while other 'name' issues are resolved incorrectly for great lengths of time. This is, unfortunately, a systemic problem and has little to do with transsexuals in particular. Often the easiest way to win an argument is to have a couple of dedicated editors ready to make the change and to prevent anyone from rolling it back. Ken Arromdee (talk) 19:45, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Probably the underlying problem is that WP intends to be an encyclopaedia (timeless), but it is written at the pace of a newspaper (on the hour). Yes, in six months, or a year, or a couple weeks, it will be clear whether it should be "him", "her", or a given mix of both; in the mean time it is likely that mast amounts of energy will be spent (wasted?) discussing it... I have no idea for a reasonable and widely acceptable solution, though, and maybe many don't even agree there is a problem there. - Nabla (talk) 00:02, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Google News often links to Misplaced Pages articles, so we have been promoted to a real news site. Count Iblis (talk) 00:36, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Another news site linking to us does not make us a news site. I can't wait for someone like Colbert to take advantage of this fiasco. What a joke. --Onorem (talk) 00:59, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Iblis, your suggestion that they link here out of a sense of journalistic recognition is either subtle sarcasm or charmingly naive. Google News links to the Misplaced Pages due to a much-documented close business relationship. Tarc (talk) 01:20, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Tarc, I wonder if you might clarify your remark here. You seem to be suggesting, although I may well be misunderstanding you, that Google News links to Misplaced Pages due to a business relationship between Google and Misplaced Pages - although there is absolutely no business relationship between Google and Misplaced Pages that led to their decision to link to us from Google News. You give a link, as if to substantiate the claim, but the link appears to perhaps be an accidental cut/paste error, as it has nothing to do with the matter at all.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:44, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• The idea that being accused of bigotry is worse than the bigotry itself isn't a new thing. Certainly, British editors will remember the Julie Bindel saga back in January, where she made horrifically transphobic comments in The Observer in response to her friend Suzanne Moore being criticised for LGBT activists for prejudiced language in one of her columns. It all comes down to the idea of privilege, really; as the majority of editors are white, male, straight, cisgender, etc, they have a privilege to look at things in this sort of dispassionate, by-the-book discussion that other people on this Earth don't have; indeed, that's why CSB exists in the first place. It's easier to leave your points of view at the door when the opposite point of view isn't "morally mandate them out of existence".

  Indeed, the simultaneous proposed topic bans of Baseball Bugs and Josh Gorand are very worrying. On one hand, Baseball Bugs made statements that were almost certainly intended to provoke anger and, yes, were transphobic (there's no other way to see calling a trans person "it"). He seems to be about to let off the hook for this behaviour. On the other hand, Josh has been pointing out transphobic commentary on the talk page (the mandatory worship of COMMONNAME aside, there is a lot of resistance to the idea of gendering Manning correctly in article text too) and is facing a topic ban for it. We're even seeing Morwen (talk · contribs) receiving threats of blackmail from (since-banned) editors, and David Gerard (talk · contribs) is probably getting similar harassment. The end result is that it is creating a very hostile and unwelcoming environment for trans editors, and is definitely against the Foundation's aims. Sceptre 08:53, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Julie Bindel's comments have a rationale to them, and I don't think Wikipedians should be expected to all be to the left of a lesbian rights activist on the issue. Doctors may agree that trans surgeries are a necessary and useful intervention, but medical ethics is strictly synonymous with profit. Why can't the same emotional end be accomplished through simple societal recognition of a third sex? Why are trans surgeries highest in Iran, and what would the doctors say about their necessity? There is definitely a need for society to retain its skeptics of the need for cosmetic surgeries. If there is a sense of privilege here, there are a lot of people who feel that it also extends to prisoners who sue for extensive surgeries; of course, if the U.S. had universal health coverage much of that resentment would be removed, and if wishes were horses... Wnt (talk) 13:11, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

FYI: it was actually Julie Burchill, not Julie Bindel, who wrote the controversial Observer article User:Sceptre refers to. An understandable mistake (both are British feminist writers, with the same first name, who have both at times been accused of transphobia), but let's try to avoid violating BLP on Jimbo's talk page. Robofish (talk) 01:53, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• OP was blocked again, for 60 hours: Unfortunately, the OP of this thread, User:Sceptre (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been blocked again for "topic ban violation" (this time by User:Future_Perfect_at_Sunrise: dif526) and not able to reply directly here for 60 hours (~3 days) from "09:17, 24 August 2013‎". However, comments can be read at bottom of User_talk:Sceptre. Dozens of users are discussing the issues at "wp:AN#Request for lift of topic ban" and Talk:Chelsea_Manning. -Wikid77 14:05, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Jimbo, I don't think your judgement on this article-title issue is reliable and I'll explain why.

You wrote, "We ought to very strongly defer to how people identify themselves, but for various pedantic reasons, some editors insist on calling people by names that they very strongly reject. — With the use of the term "pedantic" you have unfairly stereotyped those who disagree with you.

You wrote, "I think in six months time the vast majority of RS will call him Chelsea, which is why I support the change. — You are basing your judgement on speculation instead of facts.

But hey, this just demonstrates that when it comes to discussions like this, you are just another Misplaced Pages editor with regard to personal strengths and weaknesses. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:02, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, of course I am. But I do think you're missing my key point. Either choice is completely speculative at this point in time. There is no way, today, to settle the issue definitively by simply pointing to "what reliable sources say" - they say different things, and are likely to continue to do so for some time. If someone said "I think in six months time the vast majority of RS will call her Bradley" that'd be equally as speculative. (And, I think, false, given a look at the history of such things.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:05, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Re "Either choice is completely speculative at this point in time." — There is no speculation that the vast majority of sources have used the name Bradley Manning. There is only speculation that the vast majority of sources will be using Chelsea Manning six months from now. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:12, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

The vast majority of sources throughout all of history say that Pluto is a planet. The moment a celebrity dies, the vast majority of sources will say that the person is alive. The day a famous person (usually, a woman) changes her name due to marriage, the vast majority of sources will give her previous name. The point is that when something new happens, we update Misplaced Pages. We often have to make judgment calls about that.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:24, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Admittedly, that's a really persuasive point about the married name -- but (even if there is a ring of higher truth to it) we don't write that the celebrity's parents gave birth to a corpse. Wnt (talk) 15:33, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm just curious, because the pronoun shift is different from a name change in some important ways, so I don't think this proves anyone definitively one way or the other. How do we usually refer to women during the time in their life when they went by their maiden name? Here's one example: Margaret Thatcher in which we refer to her as 'Roberts' several times. Does this provide us with any guidance as to whether we ought to refer to Manning as 'he' when talking about a period in his life when he identified as male, and 'she' when talking about the present day? (Addendum: as a counter-example, I note we refer to Cheryl Cole as 'Cole' when she was 4 years old - even though Cole was not a name she or her parents would have recognized at that time.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:14, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

That is an excellent point, because I think the Manning article, now with "she", needs to specify Manning was in the U.S. Army as a man, lest people imagine military service as a woman. This issue is akin to not omitting facts which would lead people to "original conclusions" (as in non-true conclusion of woman in army). -Wikid77 16:59, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

We change sentences about the person from the present tense to the past, though. Diego Moya (talk) 16:10, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Jimbo, Re "The point is that when something new happens, we update Misplaced Pages." — When Manning expressed the desire to be called Chelsea, this new info was included in the article, presumably without dispute. But regarding the title, the new thing to happen would need to be a change to a prevalent use of Chelsea instead of Bradley in the sources that have come out since the announcement, which I don't think has happened so far. --Bob K31416 (talk) 16:53, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

I think it has. But in any event, time will tell.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:00, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

The UK press shifted entirely over in mere hours after the announcement, the US press has been shifting at an increasing rate over the past few days - David Gerard (talk) 17:02, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Jimbo, Re "I think it has. " — To find out, you can google Bradley Manning, and then google Chelsea Manning, and see for yourself. --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:22, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Making google searches does not prove anything and using these search results is a bad way of building an encyclopedia. There is overhwelming evidence that many reliable sources are using Chelsea so it is already a common usage term, we dont need google to tell us this. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 21:32, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

The googling was just to find current articles to read to see how they use the two names. I suggested separate searches using each name to avoid any keyword-related bias in the result. --Bob K31416 (talk) 03:00, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Subject to some natural caveats, I don't agree with Squeakbox. A naive and blind use of Google search counts is a bad idea, of course. But it can be a useful first tool for understanding the preponderance of the evidence. And a quick look at the relevant Google search (i.e. Google news) shows that I'm absolutely right. The vast majority of sources are using "Chelsea" in the headlines. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:05, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, I did a google news search here in Australia, just searching for "Manning". Of the top ten results, two articles had "Bradley" in the headline () and two had "Chelsea" (). StAnselm (talk) 08:30, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

One teeny problem -- the "name qua name" is the topic of many articles - and that is not proof that the newspaper style guide now says to use that name -- vide the NYT which carefully uses "Bradley" and "he" in its most recent article. "Google counts" which include articles primarily about the name are not sufficient to make much of a case for anything. As Misplaced Pages is not a tabloid, and there is no deadline, I suggest that the NYT be considered as a reputable MOS guide here. Collect (talk) 11:59, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I went to the google news site after reading Jimbo's message but I didn't see how to search just google news and not google in general, and I didn't know what keywords Jimbo used. In any case, Jimbo's criteria of "using 'Chelsea' in the headlines" is not useful because it includes cases where both Bradley and Chelsea are in the same headline and does not exclude cases where Manning is referred to as Bradley in the text of the article. The correct criterion for this discussion is how Manning is referred to in the text of the article, Chelsea or Bradley.

I also went to repeat the search that StAnselm did, but in the process I found an interesting article from The Christian Science Monitor (CSM) about how the media was affected. Here's an excerpt about Misplaced Pages from that CSM article.

For now, at least, and until instructed otherwise by my editors, I’ll do what that source of all undergraduate wisdom – Misplaced Pages – has done: Refer to Manning as female.

Ms. Manning had barely finished his – oops, her – announcement last week when Misplaced Pages immediately redirected “Bradley Manning” searches to “Chelsea Manning” in an article peppered with feminine pronouns. One example:

“She was sentenced to 35 years in prison and dishonorably discharged. She will be eligible for parole after serving one third of her sentence, and together with credits for time served and good behavior could be released eight years after sentencing.”

It’s not been so quick or easy for others in the media, where what to call Manning is being hotly debated.

From what I've seen at the Misplaced Pages article, the issue is being hotly debated in Misplaced Pages too but the change in the title did not come from a consensus from the debate, but instead was the result of aggressive editing and maneuvering. --Bob K31416 (talk) 12:06, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Gotta say, I'm not a particularly big fan of the sarcasm used in that article. Nor the way the post above seems to have some things a bit...tilted. Was the media really "effected" or was a single reporter from one source just agreeing with us...one that just happens to be one of, if not the top story coming up in Google news.

When you make a Google search there is an option below to choose "news". Just click it after you hit search. Bradley Manning Google News . Chelsea manning google news .

Also, no this was not just something that popped up last week. This is an issue that has been simmering now for a month or two, at least. The decision was not a consensus edit. It was a bold edit. We still form consensus on Misplaced Pages through actual editing as well as discussion. It isn't a sin. I do resent the implication that editors who support this change have done so with "aggressive editing and maneuvering". No, they didn't. It got changed because it was finally confirmed to be accurate and real. Now that the bold edit has been made the community must decide if that is the right editorial judgment. I think it is. Strongly.--Mark Miller (talk) 12:33, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Comparisons to famous name changes

The most-obvious example I remembered was the name change of world-famous boxer Cassius Clay, as a rising star in the sports world, and then Clay defeated Sonny Liston in a major upset, so the "whole world" then knew the name "Cassius Clay" was the greatest boxer of the time, at a time when boxing was not widely considered such a "politically questionable" violent sport. Then Clay joined the Nation of Islam, and changed his name to "Muhammad Ali" and to my shock, within weeks, the "whole world" started continually referring to Clay as "Ali", I mean it was like the world just did not understand he was the great "Cassius Clay" and everyone kept saying "Ali" (or for a short while some added "formerly Clay"). Hence, it is important to understand the way the world has really worked during the past 50 years, and remember how a famous person who changes names for a crucial reason is almost instantly renamed in reporting future famous events. Perhaps the key issues are the public announcement of the name change, plus the impact of the underlying reasons. And the world media immediately responds. It is amazing how quickly people around the world can react, learn and adapt. Update: Even though polite TV might have accepted "Ali" there is a report that other reporters and TV commentators "openly mocked his new name, treating it as a bizarre affectation" which perhaps was not broadcast as much (see: Salon.com, "What's in a name? Chelsea Manning and Muhammad Ali", Aug. 24, 2013), and Clay had secretly become a member of the Nation of Islam before the Liston fight, but promoters suppressed the story, and Clay did not announce name "Ali" until after he won the fight. Hence, the behind-the-scenes bickering might have been similar, with the Times deciding to use historic name "Cassius Clay" as tied to pre-Ali notability. There were related issues of racism or fear about Black Muslim activities. -Wikid77 16:59, 25 August, 10:17, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

So why does Misplaced Pages still have an article on Cat Stevens, who hasn't used that name for 35 years? Mogism (talk) 17:02, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

You're both right, and you're both wrong. WP:COMMONNAME already has it covered. Muhammad Ali is the most common name for Cassius Clay and Cat Stevens is the most common name for Yusuf. There is no need to argue or change policy. WP:COMMONNAME is already correct. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:30, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor comes to mind as well. Albacore (talk) 17:36, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Not a direct comparison, though. The majority of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's notable achievements were under that name, the majority of Margaret Thatcher's achievements were as Margaret Thatcher, not Margaret Roberts or Baroness Grantham, and Talk:Cat Stevens is full of explanations that the page hasn't been moved as most of his notable activity was under that name. Everything for which Manning is notable was done under the name Bradley. While I personally agree that Misplaced Pages should respect the subject's wishes and use whatever name they want to be known by, we should at least admit that Cat Stevens, Alan Sugar and hundreds of other pages are at "subject's former name" on the grounds that that is the name by which their most notable activity took place, even though that's not the name the subject currently goes by. Mogism (talk) 17:45, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Not so, Manning is unquestionably notable for her statement that she is now a female called Chelsea, indeed that is arguably the most notable thing this notable human being has done. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 18:36, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Seriously? You think the primary reason for her being notable is her gender identity? I don't just find that ridiculous, I find it insulting that you appear to be saying that people with gender identity issues are so unusual that they're automatically of public interest. (I really can't see any other way to parse your comment.) Mogism (talk) 18:43, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

I didnt say it was the primary reason for her being notable, that was clearly the wikileaks episode, I said it was the most notable (just as Gary Glitter was primarily notable as a pop star but the most notable things he has done are his pedophile activities). Are you claiming Chelsea's recent statement isnt notable? In which case why are you here discussing it at all?. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 18:50, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

No, nobody would care that Manning considers themselves female if it wasn't for the security breach. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 05:18, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

The term "transphobic" should not be used in these discussions, in my opinion. A phobia is a mental illness, an irrational fear. It is uncivil name-calling and an attempt to shut down discussion by applying a label to those who do not agree with you. I don't see all of those comments at the start of this thread as being evidence of a phobia, some of them are just discussing the question from a different point of view than the OP.Smeat75 (talk) 20:02, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

See etymological fallacy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:04, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

As our article puts it, "usually these kinds of "phobias" are described as fear, dislike, disapproval, prejudice, hatred, discrimination, or hostility towards the object of the 'phobia'." It's not a nice thing to say, regardless of whether the etymology is accurate. 71.231.186.92 (talk) 04:31, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I formerly thought the word was a "-phobia" mental condition, but it has been defined as a "strong dislike" or use of discrimination, as a statement of fact rather than a direct personal insult, or an attempt to ascribe a medical diagnosis to another user. Comparisons to mental phobias are a source of conflicts, as someone imagines being called crazy, rather than stating a dislike of trangender. -Wikid77 10:17, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Language Log: "Manning's pronouns"

Language Log has a discussion at Language Log » Manning's pronouns.
—Wavelength (talk) 16:32, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Here is a link to a Google cache of the page.
—Wavelength (talk) 01:43, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Appeal - was formerly titled "Can an Arbitrator's Block be Overturned"

Make Misplaced Pages more User-Friendly and Global. Thanks!

Jimmy, it was great meeting you and in my articles, I always praised your work. However, I do feel that Misplaced Pages needs to be more user-friendly for Indians and Indian sub-continent. Sometimes, experienced Editors from 1st world nations often force views on others on editing, while there needs inclusion of Indian sentiments and culture while working with Indians. I wish, that the fashion articles on India on wikinews and wikipedia be more readable for the Indian fashion fraternity. We should work together on the same. I truly wish that Misplaced Pages gains more respect (that it needs in India) in a nation where a huge population does not have electricity, expecting technical knowledge to edit Wiki articles will be a bit too much. We should make wikipedia more user-friendly available to the masses as Misplaced Pages is still available to the classes (rich people who posses a computer and electricity and a smart phone). Misplaced Pages's mission is noble, it needs to spread it's knowledge to the masses. Let's collaborate and do something together and spread Misplaced Pages among all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sou Boyy (talk • contribs) 17:20, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

These pages may interest you.

• Category:Indian fashion
• Category:Wikipedians in India
• Category:Wikipedians interested in fashion
• Help:Mobile access
• Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution
• Misplaced Pages:Help desk
• Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Accessibility
• Misplaced Pages:Systemic bias
• Misplaced Pages:Teahouse
• Misplaced Pages:Village pump
• Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Fashion
• Misplaced Pages:WikiProject India

—Wavelength (talk) 19:00, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Hello Sou Boyy and welcome to Misplaced Pages. I have just been looking over your contributions from a Teahouse request in regards to handling new editors. I think a great deal of what you bring up is valid, however you also appear to misunderstand or not understand many of our policies and guidelines. I note that you appear to be uploading a great deal of promotional material in the form of images with watermarks in the center of the image with your blog Site , . Misplaced Pages is not a platform to promote yourself or your work off Wiki. Is it possible that your reacting negatively to those that are attempting to help guide you here? Try to understand what Misplaced Pages's goals of freely licensed content is for and how it works. At the moment you may have a few issues needing to be cleaned up, but that is no reason you cannot be a productive editor and a large part of our community. Just have patience, listen to what others are attempting to say and accept the occasional criticism. Good luck and happy editing.--Mark 20:21, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Jimmy, Wavelength, and Mark. I do wish there would be more Indian presence on Misplaced Pages. Also, I went through the categories given by Wavelength, those were nice to browse/read through. It will be great to meet at next Wikimania and discuss more on the same. Thanks for the info. Thank You! --Sou Boyy (talk) 22:29, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Massive updates of new IndoPak articles: Also, I would like to emphasize the extensive work being done to update articles about India and Pakistan, to better fit the style of other articles, such as for phrasing, lower-case text, and conversion of measurements such as km/miles. It has become common knowledge that whereas other articles might require about 50 changes to copyedit for clerical issues, it has been common for IndoPak articles to need 500 changes to reach similar levels of text styling. We have seen numerous sections written in ALL-CAPS text, and so Template:Fixcaps can be used to quickly convert sentences of uppercase text into mixed-case, fixing the capital letters of proper nouns or names in India. In the 1970s, many computer terminals (and keypunches) displayed only uppercase letters, and the introduction of lowercase text was somewhat of a revolution in computer technology, requiring faster printers to display 52 upper/lowercase letters. However, we are prepared to accept such text from India or other regions. One article with massive improvements is "Gurdwara" as a place of worship and gathering for Sikhism; however, numerous town or religious-site articles of India are being updated, such as "Thiruninravur" to remove duplicate phrases and reformat text as similar to other articles. -Wikid77 08:36, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Kim Dent-Brown is assisting the editor.--Mark 10:49, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Big picture on the Manning incident

I apologize for creating a new thread on this. As a quasi-retired editor am still seeing a lot of the same behavior that made me reassess my participation in the project. There were regrettable actions for this incident, and these kinds of mistakes will happen and can be fixed. The ultimate problem, however, is that many editors have turned the discussion page for the article into a WP:BATTLE situation and there has been very little attempt to fix that problem. This scares away editors interested in writing encyclopedias and attracts editors interested in fighting wars. This will not be the last heated discussion, and I encourage the project to evaluate what can be done to further discourage WP:BATTLE situations. One possibility would be an "admin boot camp" for training admins on effective methods for handling the situations. I do not expect a response or an immediate plan, nor would I suggest wading into the ongoing battle on this particular page. It is, however, something that concerns me as a long-time watcher, infrequent editor (~5k edits over 6 years), and frequent user of Misplaced Pages articles. 71.231.186.92 (talk) 20:25, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Riding the crest of trans culture 3 months: A major part of the turmoil, leading to wp:BATTLE conflicts, is due to the emerging terminology in trans culture. For example, the world "transphobia" was only added to the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) and Microsoft Office software within the past 3 months (see: "Transphobia Is in the Dictionary", 25 July 2013) although the word has been used as slang for many years. Many people did not know about the major insult to refer to a trans female as "he/him" or "Mr." or using the former masculine name. This has been a learning experience for numerous people, as a case of "When in Rome" and probably few even knew the words "cisgender" or "cissexist". Consequently, WP needs to update policies or guidelines to properly encompass the trans terminology, even with radical changes to policy. As aerospace personnel might say, we are "pushing the envelope" to adjust the naming guidelines and inform other Wikipedians quickly. Hence, there have been numerous recent debates after the Manning name/gender announcement. The crucial need to respect a person's chosen name has been well-known since "Norman Maine" in A Star Is Born (1937 film) or after 1964 when world-famous Cassius Clay chose the unusual new name "Muhammad Ali". As Jimbo has noted earlier, in his busy new-father life, the need to quickly recognize people's new names and update the BLP status details (new profession, marriage) has been overlooked in many cases (beyond The artist formerly known as Prince). However, thank you for noting the intensity of the debate conflicts about Manning, where others talking with Jimbo might have been unaware. -Wikid77 08:36, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Missing the point, though - my concern is not the specific details of the Manning case, but the fact that the situation was badly handled. It took days to bring the discussion to anything approaching civil, comments seen as highly offensive went unaddressed, and so on. Given Misplaced Pages's long experience with these kinds of disputes, it would seem that we could help admins by putting together a list of best practices on how to calm the storm, what thresholds and tools should be used for short-term disruptive behavior, and so on, because the admin corps came across as completely lost in handling the situation. I'm not concerned about the details of articles, we'll figure those out, I'm concerned that we're recruiting time drains like SPAs and scaring away productive editors when we encourage this kind of battleground behavior by looking the other way. 71.231.186.92 (talk) 14:17, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Arbitrary decision of German Misplaced Pages

Dear Users, after almost one year on German Misplaced Pages article Igor Janev, with arbitrary decision user Cú Faoil has been removed, as a SPAM. Professor Igor Janev has been prominent Macedonian diplomat with credits for US recognition of Macedonian Constitutional Name. After, some misunderstanding on the issue of "Tosa (Hunderasse)",user Cú Faoil in arbitrary procedure, as a revenge, claimed that art. on German Misplaced Pages about dr. Igor Janev has been SPAM! It was removed in completely unjust way, with no real basis. We would appreciate, if you can inform chief administrative user of German Misplaced Pages, and reinstate unjustly removed article about Igor Janev. Best Regards, Former Advisor to the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Republic of Macedonia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.221.85.23 (talk) 21:00, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Facts about Igor Janev Dear Wiki users, see basic facts relating to Professor dr Igor Janev 1.http://s241910817.onlinehome.us/html/articles/janev/janev.html (*Dr. Igor Janev, Former Special Advisor of the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Macedonia) 2.http://www.mia.mk/en/Inside/RenderSingleNews/289/105947751 (wellknown professor Igor Janev)

3.http://mk.wikipedia.org/%D0%98%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80_%D0%88%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%B2 (Diplomat Igor Janev)

4. His contribution in US - RM relations http://dobarglas.info/naslovna_v6.htm (in Macedonian)

5. further http://www.makemigration.com/iselenistvoweb/index.php?page=iselenici&id=247&tip_iselenici=7 (in Macedonian) http://www.makedonskosonce.com/broevis/2008/sonce748.pdf/12_15_janev.pdf (in Macedonian) http://www.makedonskosonce.com/broevis/1999/sonce287/Tekst09.htm (in Macedonian) http://www.makedonskosonce.com/broevis/2003/sonce451/Tekst14.htm (in Macedonian)

and so on — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.222.125.35 (talk) 22:39, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

There was a regular deletion request with the result that it was speedily deleted as cross-wiki spam of a machine-translated fake that was supported by a zoo of sockpuppets. (This is not my own conclusion but that of the closing admin. I was not involved in that case.) --AFBorchert (talk) 12:33, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Ongoing deletion review on de:Misplaced Pages:Löschprüfung#Igor_Janev. --MBq (talk) 12:51, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Are Jimbo's statements regarding the Manning article reliable and authoritative?

This is a general discussion, but arises out of the Manning affair. Jimbo has made some proclamations on what should be the current status with regards to the renaming of the Manning article. With all due respect, since Wales is the founder of the Wikiverse, and is the Archmage of Misplaced Pages, I don't think Jimbo's statements have any right to be considered as authority. Nor can they be assigned much reliability.

This is because, whilst Wales is accepted as having some authority by consensus by virtue of the aforementioned position, he is still treated as an ordinary user - he does not specifically state on his userpage "I am the Supreme Authority in all things Misplaced Pages". The "What would Jimbo do" article reflects this, since this article is humorous, and DOES NOT in any way reflect Wiki policy.

Further, in regards to the statement Wales purported to make as Supreme Governor of Misplaced Pages, he does not ahve any sources attached thereto. The fact that he states that he thinks that the article "should be moved ", isn't worth tuppence, since Wales, the epitome of WP policy has violated WP policy by not sourcing anything, especially in such a controversial topic as this.

Finally, Wales' comments on this matter are unreliable, since Jimbo obviously doesn't know the current circumstances of Manning. He is still male - he has male organs, and (as far as we know) still executes male bodily functions (such as sperm production). Also, it's unlikely the army will accept a purported gender change, so, for all purposes, Manning is male.

I remain, nonetheless, a committed editor, seeking to uphold the multitude of laws that constitute this project, according to my interpretation thereof.

--The Historian (talk) 14:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Even if all you say about Jimbo were right it doesnt make him wrong on Manning, and there are masses of RSs to support the name and gender changes as well as many policies, BLP, IDENTITY and most importantly NPOV ie not putting the POV of editors like yourself as more important than what Manning has had to say as published in a whole stack of RSs. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 14:28, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

All of which is just your opinion. Many (many, many) others interpret WP:NPOV compliance as referring to Bradley Manning by his given name and by his actual gender, which is male, until steps are taken to actually change either. Tarc (talk) 14:33, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

A big issue here is at what level the useful information resides in the real world. The higher you choose the level, the more processing on the raw data will already have been done. So, the right level of the information we should use, depends on the processing of the information we are supposed to do here. If we extract the name "Bradley" from a newspaper, then that is too high a level of information because the more primary information about the facts has been processed by the editorial policies of the newspaper while we have different policies. So, we should use lower level information from the newspaper which are about the gender identity isses Manning has been dealing with and process that using our own policies. Count Iblis (talk) 14:40, 26 August 2013 (UTC)