| Revision as of 14:56, 26 August 2013 editCount Iblis (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers12,827 edits →26 August 2013 (UTC)← Previous edit | Revision as of 14:59, 26 August 2013 edit undoCount Iblis (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers12,827 edits →26 August 2013 (UTC)Next edit → | ||
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| : ] <sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 14:30, 26 August 2013 (UTC) | : ] <sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 14:30, 26 August 2013 (UTC) | ||
| :, we should use information from reliable sources at the right level. Normally the choice of that level doesn't matter; a pile of molecules that happens to be a Zebra won't be interpreted as an Elephant by someone else. In this case the problem is that the |
:, we should use information from reliable sources at the right level. Normally the choice of that level doesn't matter; a pile of molecules that happens to be a Zebra won't be interpreted as an Elephant by someone else. In this case the problem is that the primary information about Manning's gender identity issues leads to a different conclusion about her gender when we use our policies compared to some newspapers. ] (]) 14:55, 26 August 2013 (UTC) | ||
| ===Discussion=== | ===Discussion=== | ||
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 | Note: A discussion what title this article should have is being held at Talk:Chelsea_Manning#Requested move. |
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Requested move
 | It has been proposed in this section that Chelsea Manning be renamed and moved to Bradley Manning. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move |
Chelsea Manning → Bradley Manning – I am requesting that this page be moved back to its previous title of Bradley Manning so a thorough discussion can take place.
Misplaced Pages:Requested moves makes it clear that the "Requesting controversial and potentially controversial moves" process should be used in the following circumstance:
- "Use this process if there is any reason to believe a move would be contested."
Additionally, Misplaced Pages:Article titles states the following:
- "Any potentially controversial proposal to change a title should be advertised at Misplaced Pages:Requested moves, and consensus reached before any change is made."
MOS:IDENTITY also states that a person should be referred to using his or her preferred name only when there is no dispute:
- "When there is no dispute, the term most commonly used for a person will be the one that person uses for himself or herself "
Note that my move request is not a comment on what the page should eventually be called (I personally believe Chelsea is the proper title), but rather a recognition of the short-term term need to follow policy.
My move request is also not a suggestion of which pronoun should be used. MOS:IDENTITY makes it clear that in this case we should use the "she" pronoun. Pronouns are a separate issue from the page title. CaseyPenk (talk) 15:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Administrative notes
- Administrative note: Since I have no interest in the outcome of this discussion, I have volunteered to shepherd it for the duration, and serve on a three-administrator panel that will close it after seven days (or after any extension of time beyond that sought by the community). I am going to umpire, and make sure things stay civil and the discussion stays on topic. That said, please do try to keep things civil and on topic. Cheers! bd2412 T 21:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- I see that someone tried to edit the bot's page to force a link to the section title. There is a deficiency in the bot's regex pattern matching, in that it doesn't find the section title when text is entered above the RM template. I'm trying to fix that, but as a stopgap, I'm moving this text below the template. – Wbm1058 (talk) 19:13, 24 August 2013 (UTC) (bot operator)
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Survey
- Today is 28 December 2024 (UTC); new comments belong to today's section on basis of Coordinated Universal Time (UTC). Replies are still welcome in collapsed sections.
22 August 2013 (UTC)
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Consider a compromise; qualify the person as their original sex chronologically up to the point at which they assume/come out in a new gender role. The person was a male/female up until that point as a matter of fact.```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.98.4.11 (talk • contribs)
1) Manning has not yet undergone gender reassignment (he is still male, and I have read and heard somewhere that reassignment therapy isn't available in army facilities) 2) He does not wish to be known as Chelsea in everything he does - as part of the statement he issued, it clearly states: "I also request that, starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun (except in official mail to the confinement facility)." (my emphasis). This means that Manning is still male, and until he undergoes full reassignment therapy, and agrees to be referred to as a female IN EVERYTHING he does or pertaining to him, I think the renaming of the article to "Chelsea Manning" was unnecessary. --The Historian (talk) 20:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.178.34.11 (talk • contribs) 23:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC) |
23 August 2013 (UTC)
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24 August 2013 (UTC)
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26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Comment: As others have noted, the move to Chelsea was premature and should have awaited fuller use of that name in reliable sources (see WP:COMMONNAME). A parenthetical statement in the lede about her preferred name would have sufficed until then. On these procedural grounds I support returning the article to Bradley, but by the time this discussion is closed, I expect the preponderance of sources using "Chelsea" will make this point moot. Subsidiary comment: The personal opinion of many here is to accept her self-identification out of human decency, because gender is more complicated than genitals and chromosomes. But, for the sake of Misplaced Pages, those opinions are academic and immaterial: we generally have to go by what the aggregated sources say, not by what's right. --Rae (Talk | Contribs) 05:51, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose. As I've already noted in other comments, making acceptance of a transgender person's chosen name conditional on her compliance with further conditions (complete the legal process, have the surgery, etc.) is not acceptable — for starters that's a higher burden of proof than we place on any other celebrity who happens to change their name, and even more importantly both her legal records and her medical records are covered by privacy laws and thus her completion of those tasks will never be properly verifiable. (What's our test going to be? She can't be "Chelsea" until she personally uploads a photograph of her groin to Commons to prove that she doesn't have a penis anymore? That's ridiculous and invasive, obviously, but what other evidence can we possibly ask for if "have the surgery first" is our standard?)
- Furthermore, no other type of person on Misplaced Pages is subject to any requirement that we must necessarily lock the article into their legal birth name, regardless of any other titling consideration — and thus imposing that as a unique rule that is binding only on transgender people is a clearcut act of transphobia.
- COMMONNAME is also not a compelling argument, because that rule explicitly states, right in its own text, that there are sometimes legitimate reasons to privilege another name over one that's technically more common — so the question becomes, why should a transgender person not be one of those cases? And COMMONNAME also explicitly says that sources published after a name change count for more than those published before — so leaving aside for the moment the fact that there's already been a documentable shift, it still needs to be asked what volume of new sourcing has to be provided before people will be satisfied that the balance has finally tipped over to Chelsea instead of Bradley? Is it 100 articles? 1,000? 10,000? What's the number? Or is it going to be, my real suspicion, a moving target which always consists of "some unspecified number of additional sources beyond what we have now"?
- And if the argument is based on "Chelsea" being a violation of POVNAMING, then you have to face the reality that "Bradley" also poses just as much of a POVNAMING issue — because it also represents a POV assertion about the validity of her identity change. So if there's no wholly NPOV naming option available, then in a BLP you've got to err on the side of the subject's dignity. As I've said elsewhere, the only appropriate, WP:BLP-compliant way to write about a transgender person is to accept her chosen name and gender identity. BLP requires us to write our articles with sensitivity, and paying mind to the possibility of harm to living subjects. While it's true that media outlets vary in how well they adhere to these principles, virtually every media style guide of any reputability whatsover (AP, Canadian Press, GLAAD, etc.) advises that a transgender person's chosen name and gender identity must be respected without condition — doing otherwise is inherently causing harm to the subject, and violating WP:NPOV by casting judgement on the validity of her gender identity. The fact that a few readers might be a little bit confused, furthermore, is covered by the fact that "Bradley" is still in place as a redirect — so people are not going to fail to get here because they typed the wrong name into the search bar, and given the volume of media coverage her announcement has been getting I sincerely doubt that there are five people left in the Western world who are going to be surprised.
- So simply put, for all of those reasons I have to take the position that the article's proper and correct title is Chelsea. Bearcat (talk) 08:21, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Support moving the article name back to Bradley Manning for now. In essence it's been decided that an established policy WP:COMMONNAME should be overruled and that anyone who wants to abide by the established policy is somehow prejudiced towards the person. Either the clearly established policy should be adhered to or it should be changed (along with WP:NPOV) to reflect the new political reality. Editors should be castigated for their adherence or otherwise to Misplaced Pages policy, not for their (presumed) views, unless Misplaced Pages starts censoring views as policy. My suspicion is that the references to Bradley Manning will become rarer and this will simply default to Chelsea, but I am uneasy about the precedent of break the rules if it matches the political views of the majority of admins that is being set here. JASpencer (talk) 09:37, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Compromise: since "Chelsea" seems too controversial, let us rename this person "Peyton." Torquemama007 (talk) 12:08, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Support I am not as heavily swayed by the argument that we should wait for SRS or some kind of 'legal name change.' I do understand the draw; they provide a single, verifiable way to determine a persons gender. They are also arbitrary, unverifiable, and ultimately irrelevant (we are not tied to the United States government, so why do we care so much what they think?)
- I am, however, swayed by the "Golden Retriever Problem"- if Manning said "I'm a golden retriever, and my name is Rover", would we accept that? Of course not. It would be an inappropriate value judgement to say in this case that Manning has such definite control over his name, yet in other cases ignore obviously spurious 'name changes' - without violating NPOV, how could we make a judgement?
- The claim that there would be some sort of BLP violation or harassment seems ridiculous. If we're harassing, then what are the news organizations (such as, I understand, AP) doing? As to BLP, the three main issues are NPOV, V, and OR. I do not see NPOV as being an issue considering the continued use of the name "Bradley" by many news organizations. As to Verifiability, there is no question there. As for OR, it seems to me the "Chelsea" supports could be conducting their own Original Research by synthesizing that the subject of the article's name is Chelsea, without that being supported first by reliable sources. The rest of BLP seems to deal with the privacy of the subject, but that is not relevant here because the name "Bradley" has already all over the news.
- The title "Chelsea Manning" is (potentially) confusing to many readers. Readers not familiar with the case will be surprised to find an article named "Chelsea..." when they typed in "Bradley..." I suspect they could even navigate away from the page, if they know the subject to be male, yet the article is, at a first glance, about a woman.
- To reply to Bearcat, above, if it is POVNAMING in either case, I find it to be a legitimate option to simply defer to reliable sources. I have not yet seen a meaningful analysis of how different reliable sources handle this issue. I do not believe we are impacting the tone of the article or dignity of the subject. The simple truth is that Manning has not used the name Chelsea at all (AFAIK) until very recently. As to gender identity, if Manning has been consistently identified as male by all secondary coverage until now, how are we creating an 'unduly negative' article by reporting that? In addition, my understanding is that the AP has not transitioned to using the Chelsea name.
- I think I read an editor claiming that "Bradley..." would hurt the ' cause' which is, I feel, a very poor argument in this context.
- I think Rae, above makes a good, if unfortunate point.
- As I explain here, we should use information from reliable sources at the right level. Normally the choice of that level doesn't matter; a pile of molecules that happens to be a Zebra won't be interpreted as an Elephant by someone else. In this case the problem is that the primary information about Manning's gender identity issues leads to a different conclusion about her gender when we use our policies compared to some newspapers. Count Iblis (talk) 14:55, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Discussion
Misplaced Pages's actual clients -- you know, general readers not familiar wp-this and wp-that -- are going to expect to find an article on the name that's been in the news for months. During the notable part of the person's life they were know as Bradley so that's what the article should be titled. NE Ent 01:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages's actual clients are going to find this article no matter which title they search on, because the redirect from her former name means they'll still get here anyway. Bearcat (talk) 04:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- You're right. However it's still interesting to look at what people are searching for: Bradley Manning vs Chelsea Manning Even with the front page ITN linking to Chelsea Manning, people are still using the Bradley search term more often by a significant magnitude. It might be something to look into a bit - perhaps it might represent what the majority still currently believe his name is? Before we make crystal ball predictions on whether this current trend may change, keep in mind that we make decisions based on the present, and not for the future. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 08:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Redirects: Cheap, easy, free. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:53, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is probably what you are looking for: . IRWolfie- (talk) 14:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think you mean this: --Yetisyny (talk) 19:42, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
MOS:IDENTITY
For all those citing MOS:IDENTITY, that guideline relates to the content of the article not the the title of the article. This discussion is a move discussion. It relates solely to the title of the article, NOT the content of the article. The relevant policy page for this discussion is Misplaced Pages:Article titles.
I cannot even begin to imagine why people are citing WP:BLP. There are no BLP concerns affecting this discussion from what I can see.
--RA (✍) 18:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- The general principle of BLP is that we have to have respect for individuals when we're smearing their names across the internet. I think it's misapplied here since we're confusing the reader to aggressively support the person's decisions, and that goes well beyond the dispassionate but polite concern expected for a Misplaced Pages article. Even if the policy says nothing specifically, the sense of the policy is correctly applied when being careful about how we talk about living people. 71.231.186.92 (talk) 19:50, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yep. I think it's being applied correctly--even if Octamom is the most common name, we don't have an article by that name for a reason... Hobit (talk) 22:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Hobit, we have no need to look to BLP. Policy on article titles like Octomom is given in Misplaced Pages:Article titles (explicitly in that case). A title like "Bradley Manning" is not akin to "Octomom". Yesterday, there was no ambiguity about this person's name - or any sense that it may have carried offence. It was simply "Bradley Manning". Today, they asked to be called something else. We can mention that but we don't have to rename the article because of it. --RA (✍) 23:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yep. I think it's being applied correctly--even if Octamom is the most common name, we don't have an article by that name for a reason... Hobit (talk) 22:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- *.92, you raise a good point. I find something upsetting in the way the article was so aggressively altered and moved on the back of Manning's statement. It doesn't matter if the article is a little behind the latest tattle. We should be more sensitive before jumping and move with a greater degree of care on BLPs (where there is no urgent need for modification). --RA (✍) 23:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- He is one of more than 6,000,000,000 people, he is just as special as everyone else. If he wanted to change his name to 'Barak Obama' we would not be having this discussion, the page would remain his legal name of Bradley Manning. VictusB (talk) 23:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Define what you mean by "respect". It certainly doesn't, even as a general principle, mean that articles should only contain information that the living person would choose to have in the article. Miraculouschaos (talk) 01:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Referring to a trans woman using male-gendered names and and pronouns, including the title of the article, is deeply offensive and harmful. BLP asks us to consider harm to living subjects. I can think of few things more harmful to a subject than disrespecting their identification on deeply personal characteristics like gender identity, sexual orientation, race, religion, etc. --Trystan (talk) 01:44, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Emotional distress on the part of the subject is trumped by Misplaced Pages's mission to provide information in the easiest way possible to the largest number of people. The vast majority of the sources for the article refer to the subject as Bradley Manning, the vast majority of the pages that link to this article use the name Bradley Manning, and the vast majority of users of Misplaced Pages who look for this article know the person as Bradley Manning. Given that this is the person's current legal name and is not an inherently derogatory name, Manning's feelings on the matter are not enough to justify changing the name to Chelsea Manning. Miraculouschaos (talk) 02:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- It is profoundly degrading to transgender persons to refer to them using gender-inappropriate names and pronouns when they have expressed a clear preference to be addressed according to their gender identity. The harm from disrespecting gender identity is profund and can not be reduced to mere hurt feelings.--Trystan (talk) 14:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I agree, it is profoundly disrespectful. I think that brings WP:BLP into this. Hobit (talk) 16:42, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- It is profoundly degrading to transgender persons to refer to them using gender-inappropriate names and pronouns when they have expressed a clear preference to be addressed according to their gender identity. The harm from disrespecting gender identity is profund and can not be reduced to mere hurt feelings.--Trystan (talk) 14:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Emotional distress on the part of the subject is trumped by Misplaced Pages's mission to provide information in the easiest way possible to the largest number of people. The vast majority of the sources for the article refer to the subject as Bradley Manning, the vast majority of the pages that link to this article use the name Bradley Manning, and the vast majority of users of Misplaced Pages who look for this article know the person as Bradley Manning. Given that this is the person's current legal name and is not an inherently derogatory name, Manning's feelings on the matter are not enough to justify changing the name to Chelsea Manning. Miraculouschaos (talk) 02:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Referring to a trans woman using male-gendered names and and pronouns, including the title of the article, is deeply offensive and harmful. BLP asks us to consider harm to living subjects. I can think of few things more harmful to a subject than disrespecting their identification on deeply personal characteristics like gender identity, sexual orientation, race, religion, etc. --Trystan (talk) 01:44, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- One would expect the title of an article to be consistent of its contents. Misplaced Pages:Article titles also states that the naming guidelines should be used be interpreted in conjunction with other policies Vexorian (talk) 03:00, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline and not policy, policies outweigh guidelines on wikipedia. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:27, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- There is no policy on Misplaced Pages which contains anything that would overrule MOS:IDENTITY. And guidelines are just as binding as policies in the absence of a compelling reason to make an exception. In fact, Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines is very specific on this point: Policies explain and describe standards that all users should normally follow, while guidelines are meant to outline best practices for following those standards in specific contexts. The only difference between the two is that guidelines may have valid exceptions in some circumstances — but unless there's a clear consensus that the case at hand is a valid exception, guidelines do still have to be followed every bit as much as policies do. Bearcat (talk) 00:43, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Policies such as WP:NOTABILITRY a core Misplaced Pages policy (person notable for being Bradley manning) and WP:COMMONNAME Bradley being used more do outweigh it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- WP:N does not require an article to always remain at the title that a topic first became notable under; it just speaks to whether a topic should be included or excluded and has no bearing on what an article's title should or shouldn't be, or whether you can or can't move an article about a topic whose name changes after notability has already been established. And WP:COMMONNAME also explicitly says that there are numerous valid reasons why an article can be located at something other than the topic's "most common name". We title North American radio and television stations' articles with their call signs rather than their on-air brand names, for instance, because even though the on-air brand names are almost certainly more commonly known, they're rarely or never unique. We title most animal and plant species with their scientific (i.e. Latin) names rather than their common ones. We frequently choose alternate titles as a way to avoid spelling disputes between American and British English. And feel free to fill yourself in on how we dealt with the Derry vs. Londonderry and Dokdo vs. Takeshima "common name" disputes, too. COMMONNAME is simply not an invariable rule. So nope, neither of those policies is in conflict with MOS:IDENTITY at all. Bearcat (talk) 01:09, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Policies such as WP:NOTABILITRY a core Misplaced Pages policy (person notable for being Bradley manning) and WP:COMMONNAME Bradley being used more do outweigh it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- There is no policy on Misplaced Pages which contains anything that would overrule MOS:IDENTITY. And guidelines are just as binding as policies in the absence of a compelling reason to make an exception. In fact, Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines is very specific on this point: Policies explain and describe standards that all users should normally follow, while guidelines are meant to outline best practices for following those standards in specific contexts. The only difference between the two is that guidelines may have valid exceptions in some circumstances — but unless there's a clear consensus that the case at hand is a valid exception, guidelines do still have to be followed every bit as much as policies do. Bearcat (talk) 00:43, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline and not policy, policies outweigh guidelines on wikipedia. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:27, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Comment: I just noticed that Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style#Article titles includes the following phrase:
The guidance contained elsewhere in the MoS, particularly in the section below on punctuation, applies to all parts of an article, including the title.
- This would mean that MOS:IDENTITY applies to the article title. CaseyPenk (talk) 19:09, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- The MOS does indeed apply to the styling of all parts of the article, including the title. What it doesn't apply to is the substance of the title, that's what the naming policy is for. That being said, I think the more relevant point is that the MOS indisputably requires the article to use only feminine pronouns, and doing so is incongruent with an article title of "Bradley". (I also personally think more generally that there are other reasons, not relating to the MOS specifically, that the article should be under "Chelsea", but that's a different discussion.) AgnosticAphid talk 19:56, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think it can be safely said that there is ten times more input on this particular article than there has EVER been to MOS:IDENTITY. The MOS can be changed; it should not be used as weight in this decision... and I won't even get into the fact that it was crafted by the LGBT wikiproject and obviously reflects their viewpoint. - Floydian ¢ 15:11, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- To defend the MOS from your untoward suggestion – which you did make – that it somehow reflects only the interests of a biased cabal, I'd like to point out that every style manual that I've seen, if not every style guide that addresses the use of pronouns for transgender individuals, requires the use of a pronoun corresponding with the subject's chosen identity. The MOS is based on other style guides, not the whims of editors as informed by their views on matters of identity politics. You should go to the MOS talk page if you want to change the MOS. Until it does change, this article must use feminine pronouns and the extent to which that requirement affects the choice of title is a legitimate question. AgnosticAphid talk 15:51, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- But surely that would be the cart driving the horse. The pronoun question is separate to the article name question, and there is no reason to suppose that one is more important than the other - though it's the latter that's receiving all the attention right now. I agree with the OP on this thread - MOS:IDENTITY does not answer the article title question. There's no reason why we can't call the article "Bradley Manning" and then have "she" throughout. Having said that, though, I think the article name implies a change of the lead, as well as a change of the infobox heading. StAnselm (talk) 05:27, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- By the way, some baby name websites (e.g. ) list Bradley was both a boys' and girls' name. I can't find any notable women of this name, though I found this discussion forum which shows that some girls do have the name. So, Manning could have come out as a woman and kept the name Bradley. Now, it may be significant that she chose not to. I wonder if all transgender people like to change their name when they come out? I asked the question at Talk:Transgender#Names? but I haven't got an answer. 05:49, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- But surely that would be the cart driving the horse. The pronoun question is separate to the article name question, and there is no reason to suppose that one is more important than the other - though it's the latter that's receiving all the attention right now. I agree with the OP on this thread - MOS:IDENTITY does not answer the article title question. There's no reason why we can't call the article "Bradley Manning" and then have "she" throughout. Having said that, though, I think the article name implies a change of the lead, as well as a change of the infobox heading. StAnselm (talk) 05:27, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Regarding the close
Just noting here that I've asked on WP:AN/RFC and WP:AN/I for an admin to close this who has had no prior involvement with the page. Hopefully that will make the close as uncontentious as possible. SlimVirgin 20:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Gender identity
Is Bradley legally a female or male? In the article United States v. Manning Bradley prefers to be known as a female, Chelsea Manning, so it seems Bradley is a male, but like to be refered to as a female, so should we refer to Bradley as a male of female in this and the United States v. Manning? Casey.Grim85 (talk) 17:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Bradley's legal status is actually irrelevant. The style guide states Misplaced Pages should refer to Manning using female pronouns. —me_and 17:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- To be clear, there is debate as to what "The style guide" says, and how it applies, you should go read the debate yourself if you are truly interested. Many people are arguing that MOS:IDENTITY dosn't really apply in this case. CombatWombat42 (talk) 17:30, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Okay I was just wondering it all! Casey.Grim85 18:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Is it logical to refer to a person who is currently biologically male as "she", regardless of how they perceive themselves? Would this same rule apply to transvestites, who are generally referred to using the pronoun "he"? I think it would make more sense to use the term "he" until the time that he actually undergoes surgical procedures to make him a female; only after that point will it make sense to use the term "she". (Cf. Wendy Carlos, one of the more famous examples of gender-reassigned persons.) Otherwise, it's just confusing to the average reader at present. — Loadmaster (talk) 19:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes. There are plenty of trans-women who still have male sexual organs, but consider themselves "women". Gender != biology. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:05, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, there is no single identifier that makes a "biological female". Whatever identifier you use will exclude many women and include many men (and the opposite for "biological male"). Biology is not perfect. --Dee Earley (talk) 12:45, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Is it logical to refer to a person who is currently biologically male as "she", regardless of how they perceive themselves? Would this same rule apply to transvestites, who are generally referred to using the pronoun "he"? I think it would make more sense to use the term "he" until the time that he actually undergoes surgical procedures to make him a female; only after that point will it make sense to use the term "she". (Cf. Wendy Carlos, one of the more famous examples of gender-reassigned persons.) Otherwise, it's just confusing to the average reader at present. — Loadmaster (talk) 19:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- He will serve his sentence in United States Disciplinary Barracks, which is a male prison. So in the eyes of the law he is definitely a man. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 20:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages is not the United States, and we don't have to describe people only in terms of their relation to US law. A trans person does not detransition just because they move to a jurisdiction with inadequate legal provision for transition. Legal recognition, like surgery, is typically quite a late stage of transition. One must typically identify and live as one's chosen gender for some time before either becomes available. And let's not lose sight of the fact that Manning's access to female socialization, and to HRT, are artificially restricted by her status as a US federal prisoner. She's done about the only thing she currently can to signal to the world that this is her identity. AlexTiefling (talk) 23:11, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't believe Misplaced Pages would dissolve a gay marriage just because the couple moved to "a jurisdiction with inadequate legal provision" but I believe there would still be the expectation that if there was a gay marriage then there had to have been a prior legally recognized marriage SOMEWHERE. If Manning is legally recognized as female in Canada that would likely satisfy most people currently objecting. I believe you are confusing is and ought with respect to Manning's confinement. Whatever ought to be the case, if it IS the case that there not only is not but cannot be any legal recognition this is relevant to whether the dispute between the subject and his society as to how he or she should be perceived should be resolved in the favour of the subject.--Brian Dell (talk) 10:56, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Manning's gender is female. She has clearly stated this. Her biological sex does not reflect her gender, but that does not change the fact that her gender is female. The pronouns we use should reflect gender, not sex; so yes, it does make sense to refer to Manning as "she". 86.16.146.123 (talk) 21:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Manning is male. He might decide that he "identifies with" a oblique Vulcan transhuman tomale, but that doesn't make it true. Kotowing to the latest politically correct fad impresses very few and does little for wikipedias already shaky credibility.
- And throwing in your biased opinion without even signing your name does absolutely nothing for your credibility whatsoever. As such, we're quite in our rights to ignore your post completely until you learn how to use the signature. Like so: Blackbird_4 11:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Would any female allow Manning to use the women’s locker room at the local swimming pool, fitness centre, or public toilet? I doubt any typical female would be comfortable sharing facilities with Manning, would they? If females don’t accept Manning as female, then the name change is absurd. If women don't accept Manning as female nor let "her" use/share their facilities, then end of story. --BrianJ34 (talk) 17:07, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Um, no. That's not how gender identity works. California just passed a law allowing transgender children to choose which restroom they use in public schools. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yeah I think my young brother switched his gender a few times... then he grew up. What a stupid premise. "I'm a girl today. Tomorrow I'm gonna be a dinosaur."
- Um, no. That's not how gender identity works. California just passed a law allowing transgender children to choose which restroom they use in public schools. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Would any female allow Manning to use the women’s locker room at the local swimming pool, fitness centre, or public toilet? I doubt any typical female would be comfortable sharing facilities with Manning, would they? If females don’t accept Manning as female, then the name change is absurd. If women don't accept Manning as female nor let "her" use/share their facilities, then end of story. --BrianJ34 (talk) 17:07, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
So, I can just choose my gender by making a public statement? "Hey everybody, I'm female today!" What if Manning decided to issue a public statement every day at sunrise, toggling his gender each time. Would we have to retitle the article and change all the pronouns on a daily basis? It seems to me that determining someone's gender by asking them is not terribly scientific. Let's put the question this way: If we got a panel of physicians or biologists to examine Manning, would they conclude that he is male or female? ‑Scottywong| spout _ 14:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think they'd decline the request as stupid. Formerip (talk) 14:34, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- As and when Manning does toggle her gender in that way we can have that discussion; at the moment I don't think we need to consider that. FormerIP, there have been numerous levelheaded requests for people to keep hold of their emotions even in face of a flood of repetitive contributions, and those requesters are right - would you mind avoiding describing people's contributions as "stupid", and give detail as to why? 7daysahead (talk) 10:52, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Bigotry, Knowing and Otherwise
I would like to point out that an alarming number of comments in this discussion are upsettingly dismissive of trans people. Comments that equate being trans to declaring one's self some other species or fictional concept abound, as does a focus on legal names that, while presumably well-meaning, demonstrate a painful lack of awareness of the realities of gender transitions and gender identity.
I would respectfully ask that whoever ends up making the final decision on this - and I don't envy you in the least - dismiss these comments entirely. Reasoning motivated by transphobia, whether borne of genuine ignorance or active malice, has no place in the decision-making of this project. While my view is straightforward - the issue of how to handle trans people's identities was settled ages ago, and relitigating it as part of a large and heated political issue is unwise - I would ask that whatever criteria this issue is ultimately decided on, arguments based on ignorance and bigotry not be given any serious consideration. The underlying principles to consider are existing policy - the Manual of Style, our sourcing policies, our policies regarding respect for living people, and whatever other policies that existed before August 22nd, 2013 are relevant.
Efforts to alter those policies on this talk page are inappropriate. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is a discussion of the name change, not the pronoun issue. It's perfectly coherent for the article to be named Bradley Manning and for the pronoun "she" to be used for the person in question, particularly when referring to events after Manning's claim of female gender. Miraculouschaos (talk) 01:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- That doesn't seem like a response to anything I said. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- It seemed that you were referring to MOS guidelines on pronoun selection for transgendered persons. Is this incorrect? Miraculouschaos (talk) 01:33, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- That doesn't seem like a response to anything I said. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Just be careful your comments aren't otherkin-phobic themselves. In my opinion, the issues of name and pronouns have gotten mixed up. The article name issue is not really about whether Manning is male or female, but about whether Manning is "Bradley" or "Chelsea". Having said that, I appreciate that for many transgender people, the change of name is an important thing. StAnselm (talk) 01:29, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
And I'd like to congratulate Manning on successfully trolling Misplaced Pages, mass media, and even own supporters at http://www.bradleymanning.org/ --Niemti (talk) 01:55, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Past precedent
For the record, what we did in previous and less politically charged cases:
- Chaz Bono - announced transition on June 11th, article was moved the same day. Surgery was not completed at that time, and the change was made based on his publicist's reports of his preferred identity.
- Lana Wachowski - Edit warred over the course of a year, but changed in December of 2011, months before Lana's first public appearance as a woman.
- Laura Jane Grace - Announced plans to transition in May of 2012. Article was only touched by one editor for several weeks, who opposed moving. Consensus quickly formed to move the article, and it was done within a month of transition with only the original editor objecting.
Those are the three people I can think of who made transitions after they were already notable enough for articles. In all cases the article was moved quickly, prior to surgery, and upon the public announcement of a gender transition. Precedent, of course, is not binding, but it seems to me helpful to consider what we did in less politically charged circumstances. Phil Sandifer (talk) 03:22, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- It is possible that there were far fewer eyes on those articles, so the renaming slipped by. Deep Purple Dreams (talk) 04:29, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Sure. There are lots of possibilities, and as I said, precedent isn't binding. That said, the fact that this is tied to a contentious political issue is a reason to be cautious about the attention this one is getting. In many ways I trust the project's judgment more when there isn't a huge crowd gawking at a topic. Phil Sandifer (talk) 04:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Personally, my arguments for the page being at Bradley Manning have absolutely nothing to do with her not having transitioned yet, or the name change not being "official" or whatever. The situation is simply whether she is better known as Bradley or Chelsea at this moment in time. U-Mos (talk) 11:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Invasion from reddit
I was wondering why I saw so many usernames I've seen in the past involved with edit wars and this is why - there has been three separate links on reddit to communities vested in seeing this page reverted to its original name. While new users are encouraged, this very vote seems to be a form of vandalism perpetrated by a much larger community of users disinterested in the way wikipedia works. It also begs the question as to whether consensus can be reached with so much outside influence. This is actually a fight that's existed on reddit for quite some time - whether gender can be self identified or not. There is a large group of people on reddit who would like nothing better than to tell the rest of the world what they can and can not do with their own self identification. Outside of giving a rundown on the complexities of gender in relation to biological function, and the system in place created to give gender "meaning", I don't think this argument should be on whether gender identity is "real" or not - and that's what this vote has actually become, a way for people on all sides of the issue to soapbox on whether or not they think a person can change their gender identification. This vote is in my mind a farce, and in no way represents the method in which wikipedia reaches consensus. Honestly, outside of the fact that I personally see this fight as an affront to a group of people that have to struggle to maintain their personal identities every day, and outside of the lack of knowledge when it comes to how gender identity works, I am appalled at what a shitshow this has become. Countered (talk) 06:58, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Can you link to the Reddit thread/posts in question? Haipa Doragon (talk) 07:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
http://www.reddit.com/r/Drama/comments/1kw14d/a_wikipedia_edit_war_has_started_brace_yourselves http://www.reddit.com/r/sjsucks/comments/1kwdp1/the_sjws_are_having_a_field_day_on_bradley/ http://www.reddit.com/r/wikipedia/comments/1kvria/i_was_browsing_the_wikipedia_page_of_chelsea/ http://www.reddit.com/r/editwars/comments/1kw0s2/chelsea_manning_vs_bradley_manning/ http://www.reddit.com/r/TransphobiaProject/comments/1kx9ji/wikipedians_sure_are_mad_that_bradley_manning_got/
- The /r/wikipedia page alone has more than enough votes to have completely shifted the vote on whether or not the name should be changed, and it's clear from the comments which they support. Countered (talk) 07:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see the issue. None of those links are particularly popular (by Reddit standards), the wordings of the link text are neutral, and the discussion on Reddit is two-sided. On the /r/wikipedia page, there seems to be a slight preference for Bradley, but, so what? No one, anywhere, is telling people to vote in the RM discussion (I don't even think it's linked directly), and those few who do/did come here have every right to participate. Considering this talk page is now semi-protected, I doubt this is having much of an effect. -- tariqabjotu 07:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, your point of view has been supported by the influx of reddit users, of course you don't mind it. Regardless of which way they are swaying it - they are swaying it none-the-less. If they had been supporting my point of view, I would (and have) linked to their posts (see the last post I linked). Countered (talk) 07:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see the issue. None of those links are particularly popular (by Reddit standards), the wordings of the link text are neutral, and the discussion on Reddit is two-sided. On the /r/wikipedia page, there seems to be a slight preference for Bradley, but, so what? No one, anywhere, is telling people to vote in the RM discussion (I don't even think it's linked directly), and those few who do/did come here have every right to participate. Considering this talk page is now semi-protected, I doubt this is having much of an effect. -- tariqabjotu 07:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- First, this is a high profile and immediate issue in American history so hardly surprising editors would show here to opine. People care more about individuals who have had an effect on history, as opposed to celebrities or musicians. If Bill Clinton decided he was the female Clarissa Clinton would we automatically change that article's title and call Clinton a "she" when it was alleged he was raping and assaulting women? Not unless his defense at the time was he really was a woman so how could he have done so, which of course was not his defense. User:Carolmooredc 11:59, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Please assume good faith; I responded the way I did because that's how I assessed the situation, not because that served my position. I similarly did not accuse you of bringing this up because you want supporting remarks discounted (which is an easy accusation to make). You have no evidence that Reddit has been funneling lots of traffic here, other than "so many usernames I've seen in the past involved with edit wars". I don't follow how that shows an influx of Redditors. And, as you even admit, there are posts that also promote the Chelsea Manning title... so I don't see what the problem is. As I said, most of the posts are worded neutrally, and there are Redditors with a variety of positions, even in the most popular of the posts you linked; in fact, the top-rated comment here that expresses an opinion is rather tame, and sparks a remarkably decent debate about the title that doesn't devolve into the patent soapboxing and prejudice you fear. -- tariqabjotu 13:34, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- You are incorrect in the belief that influx of users via a third party campaign will help your position. Quite the contrary, the views of new users recruited to support a particular POV will be ignored, and not help their cause at all. I see very few support posts worded "neutrally", but tons of posts with what User:Surtsicna above called "pure, policy-unrelated bigotry." I think this discussion was finally settled by Sue Gardner's comment, there can be no reasonable doubt as to what Misplaced Pages policy dictates. This talk page is not the right venue for proposing changes to Misplaced Pages policy. Josh Gorand (talk) 13:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Your comment had nothing to do with what I said. I, for example, never argued that a third-party campaign helps my position. And I would never say that. Believe it or not, I would like this to be settled by consensus, fair and square. I don't care if this article stays at Chelsea Manning; that outcome would have zero effect on my life, and I understand there are acceptable reasons to do so (now and/or as time goes on). You don't seem to understand this, but discussions on Misplaced Pages are not wars or battles to be won. They're attempts to find out what we should do about a particular issue, given our vast number of guidelines and policies. And, despite your insistence that this is a black-and-white issue, where "there can be no reasonable doubt as to what Misplaced Pages policy dictates", there remains enough ambiguity in our set of policies and guidelines that reasonable people may still have disagreements. As has been pointed out a number of times, your eagerness to resort to labels and attacks on, and condescension toward, those who disagree with you is extremely unhelpful. -- tariqabjotu 15:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Per my new subsection below, it would help if people mentioned what Wikiprojects they mentioned it to on Misplaced Pages itself. Thanks. User:Carolmooredc 16:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Changing an article based on a subject's "personal preferences" or "self-identification" seems a weak argument, and possibly a dangerous precedent. I wonder, if a politician changed from being a Republican to a Democrat would we refer to them as a Democrat during the period in which they were a Republican? If a white person self-identifies as black or Native-American should Misplaced Pages do so? Chris Fynn (talk) 16:27, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
More discussion
WP:COMMONAME
WP:COMMONNAME says that when a name changes, "more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change". Hence most support votes above are premature and ignorant of what the text actually says since its too early to notice a trend. Therefore, when editors use this argument I hope they search properly by counting search returns dating from after the name-change announcement. Any admin closure should take al this into account and disregard any votes which count pre-transition announcement sources. Pass a Method talk 16:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I can't find the post alluding to 270 odd recent mentions of "Chelsea Manning" so opining here. Obviously this is big news this week and there will be 270 returns. However, what matters is what Manning is being called a month from now (with this and next week filtered out) and six months from now, and in books to be written in the future. Not to mention if Manning in fact sticks with that name, having changed it once before, or adopts another. User:Carolmooredc 20:33, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- That's the point. The article was moved within minutes of the announcement of the new name, so there were no sources to support the idea that sources call the subject Chelsea. We've seen a number of sources use the name in the context of the gender identity switch, but we're still left with inconsistent information about the use of the name in standard articles. As this article from the USA Today shows, the media has not had the seismic shift some people have prophesied. Among the sources that apparently have not switched over to Chelsea Manning (at least yet) are Reuters, BBC News, The New York Times, CBS News. -- tariqabjotu 03:30, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- The article refers this person as "she" because the editors did so. The content may be changed again into "he". By the way, you might want to refrain from calling votes "premature and ignorant" just because of content changes and of people's views about name change. --George Ho (talk) 13:43, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- BTW, "Chelsea Manning" has had 36,000 views yesterday while "Bradley Manning" had 16,000. So "Chelsea Manning" is twice as popular as "Bradley Manning". So if we go by popularity on wikipedia, Chelsea would be the obvious choice. Pass a Method talk 14:44, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Because Bradley Manning redirects to Chelsea Manning, only 20,000 of those 36,000 views came directly to Chelsea Manning without going through Bradley Manning. It's impossible to say what the source of that difference is. Perhaps it's because people looking for information about this subject are more likely to search for or type in "Chelsea Manning".
- However, it's also possible the difference is influenced by the fact that several articles in the media (as listed at the top of this page) link to Chelsea Manning. It could be because there are a number of people involved on this talk page and various discussions about the naming issue repeatedly looking at the article Chelsea Manning (myself included), which would not require me to go via Bradley Manning (remember, these are individual, not unique, views we're talking about). Perhaps it's because the Main Page links directly to Chelsea Manning. Or perhaps it's because people have heard the name "Chelsea Manning" in the news and have decided to search for that, even though when looking for information on this person they would otherwise search for "Bradley Manning". We just don't know, and I don't think we can read too much into these figures with all the publicity at the moment.
- From the Stats FAQ, "I wouldn't base any important decisions on these stats." -- tariqabjotu 15:56, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
List of Wikiprojects that have been alerted
I don't see any mention of this, per WP:Canvass. I looked in a couple likely places and found below. Perhaps people could share if they posted it anywhere so that others can decide if they want to post it on other relevant projects. Feel free to add to list below. User:Carolmooredc 16:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- WikiProject_LGBT_studies
- Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Conservatism
- Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject United States
- Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Military history
References to Manning in sources
Sue Gardner mentioned several sources supposedly switching over to Manning's new name. However, they appeared to be mostly blogs and viewpoints that people should accept and use Manning's chosen name. As I said in response to her, it seems better to look at how sources actually refer to Manning in ordinary stories and articles, particularly outside of the announcement of Manning's new identity. (Doing that, we see a direct contradiction to the wishes of the New York Times' public editor, for example, as explained here.) So, I've begun compiling a list; feel free to add to it. (I must say that, at the current time, it is very difficult to find sources from after the announcement that refer to Manning in a context other than the announcement itself, so I hope that, at least over time, this can grow.) -- tariqabjotu 16:30, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Using Bradley
- The Independent (dated August 23): "It came just days after a judge at Fort Meade, in Maryland, sentenced Bradley Manning to 35 years in prison "
- The New York Times (dated August 22 online, August 23 in print): " just as the court-martial of Pfc. Bradley Manning included charges "
- Reuters (dated August 23): "U.S. soldier Bradley Manning, who was sentenced on Wednesday "
- BBC (dated August 22 afternoon): "Profile: Bradley Manning"
- AP (dated August 24): "Insider threats have troubled the administration and Congress, particularly in the wake of Bradley Manning "
- Using Chelsea
- The Huffington Post (dated August 24): "Americans have reached no consensus on the fairness of the prison sentence given to Chelsea Manning"
Re-posting what I said above in the other section about the usages I found... (reorganized a bit to match what tariqabjotu did.) - Penwhale | 18:48, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Using Bradley
- CNN's video " (dated August 22) CNN will continue to refer to him as Bradley Manning since he has not yet legally changed his name "
- Margaret Sullivan's blog, while talking about why the media should change, linked to the New York Times Manual of Styles which has provision to keep a newsworthy name against the subject's wish (Unless a former name is newsworthy or pertinent, use the name and pronouns (he, his, she, her, hers) preferred by the transgender person - original emphasis removed)
- Reuters (dated August 23) "Bradley Manning, the U.S. soldier sentenced this week for leaking 700,000 classified documents to WikiLeaks in the biggest breach of secret data in the country's history, could soon be entangled in another legal showdown " (the rest of article only uses Manning, and apart from stating Manning's wish to live as Chelsea, has no mention of either of the first names)
- ABC News (dated August 22) " Military officials say Bradley Manning has returned to a prison at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., to serve his 35-year prison sentence for giving mountains of classified material to WikiLeaks " (also mentions Manning's wish to live as Chelsea)
- CBS News (dated August 23) title: "Bradley Manning identifies as transgender: Transitioning explained"
- Using Chelsea
- NBC News clearly has switched to preferred name by Manning in multiple articles published since Thursday afternoon.
- One opinion piece on ABC News supports the change
I think it's best if it gets summed up by this USA Today article: Media torn in Manning 'he' or 'she' pronoun debate
WP:BLP Issue
I have seen the issue of WP:BLP pop up time and time again in the move discussion so I want to know is it valid to say that the article's title move violates WP:BLP? If so where does it state this or if not where do people see it as saying it? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:21, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Legality and notability
I found another case of a person not having a legal name change but their article reflecting the name tthey chose in the media.
http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Bobby_Jindal
His "real", and legal name is Piyush Jindal, yet because of notability of his nickname in the media, it's been changed. There isn't even a rule utilized on this page either, and it's been like this for more than a year. Countered (talk) 18:17, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- WP:OTHERSTUFF, lets focus on this article. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:22, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
because of notability of his nickname in the media
Yes. Exactly. The article is entitled Bobby Jindal not because he just decided to call himself that, but because reliable sources actually call him that. -- tariqabjotu 18:31, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Meaning of "no consensus" in this case?
If the result of this discussion is "no consensus", does that mean the title should be Bradley Manning or Chelsea Manning?
Obviously, the title is currently controversial (a contender for most controversial title ever). However, it only became controversial on August 22, 2013. Prior to that the title was stable at Bradley Manning. It just happens that the edit wheel war over the title happened to end up at Chelsea Manning, so the formal RM was created as moving Chelsea Manning to Bradley Manning. However, the real discussion is about whether the title should be one or the other, not whether Chelsea Manning should be renamed to Bradley Manning (the distinction is subtle but matters if the result of the discussion is "no consensus").
If there is no consensus, it seems to me it should be reverted to the title that was stable before it became controversial. That means Bradley Manning. Yes, I also believe that should be the title, at least for now while that's how the subject is referred most commonly in reliable sources, but that should not undermine my point/argument at all: when there is no consensus in an RM discussion, the closer should restore the most recent stable name, which in this case is Bradley Manning. --B2C 03:12, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I would think it would be Bradley Manning because there was no consensus to move to Chelsea in the first place. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:18, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- There is evidence that BD2412 (talk · contribs), one of the closers, already understands this. -- tariqabjotu 03:38, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think we need to second guess here, or start proposing what should be done if X, or Y, or Z. We're just going to have to trust the closing team. I also hope this doesn't go to move review...--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 05:05, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Please move subpages along with article
2 edit conflicts made me decide to make a subsection. This is just a quick FYI, there are a LOT of sub-pages attached to this article and I just moved all the ones I could find. IF you decide to move again, please make sure that all the relevant pages are attached. Thank you, Cheers! Coffeepusher (talk) 16:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Done Somebody seems to have done this.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:29, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
Slate blog post about pronouns here
This is fairly recent coverage of the issue as it pertains to this Misplaced Pages article.
Better reference for war logs leak
 | It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at Chelsea Manning. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)
This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".
The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |
The 2nd paragraph of the lead section says Manning leaked, among other things, the Afghan War logs and Iraq War logs. I think Manning being the source of the war logs leak was long assumed, but it wasn't confirmed until Manning's admission on page 16 of his 29 January 2013 statement to the court.
The only citation currently given for the entire set of leaked materials is "Leigh and Harding 2011, pp. 194ff, 211. For Manning's referring to the documents, see Poulsen and Zetter, 6 June 2010." Well, those sources don't seem to support the portion of the claim pertaining to the war logs. The latter reference is a Wired article that makes no mention of the war logs; it only discusses the Baghdad video, the Granai video, the 2008 Army report blasting Wikileaks, and the diplomatic cables. Leigh & Harding's book likewise, as far as I can tell from skimming the relevant chapter, doesn't explicitly tie Manning to the war logs, either.
So, I feel we should modify the placement and content of the existing reference so that it doesn't apply to the war logs, and then use Manning's own statement as the reference for the war logs—i.e., change this:
The material included videos of the ] and the 2009 ] in Afghanistan; 250,000 ]; and 500,000 army reports that came to be known as the ] and ].<ref name=Leigh2011p194/> Much of the material was published by WikiLeaks or its media partners between April and November 2010.<ref name=Leigh2011p194>Leigh and Harding 2011, pp. 194ff, 211. * For Manning's referring to the documents, see .</ref>
to this:
The material included videos of the ] and the 2009 ] in Afghanistan; 250,000 ];<ref name=Leigh2011p194/><ref>Poulsen and Zetter, 6 June 2010</ref> and 500,000 army reports that came to be known as the ] and ].<ref name=ProvidenceStatement>{{cite web|url=https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_zC44SBaZPoQmJUYURBUnBycUk/edit?pli=1 |title=Statement in Support of Providence Inquiry |date=29 January 2013}}</ref> Much of the material was published by WikiLeaks or its media partners between April and November 2010.<ref name=Leigh2011p194>Leigh and Harding 2011, pp. 194ff, 211.</ref>
Then, in the "Granai airstrike" section, replace the first reference with <ref name=ProvidenceStatement/>.
—mjb (talk) 20:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Is everyone ok with this change? If there is no opposition in the next couple of days, I will add it to the article. — Mr. Stradivarius 15:20, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I wouldn't be keen on that because it adds unnecessary footnotes to the lead. (The article is a GA and I was hoping to get it to FA, which is why I'm concerned about style issues.) I didn't quite follow Mjb's point about the need for an additional source, but if there is a need, the sources are bundled, so an extra source can be added to the bundle. The first footnote (ref name=Leigh2011p194) can be removed because it repeats the second. SlimVirgin 18:17, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Edit request on 22 August 2013: Categorize him as "transsexual"?
Please add Category:Transgender and transsexual military personnel to the list of categories, per the recent announcement by Manning.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC) Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Done Mark Arsten (talk) 21:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- This was undone somehow. @Mark Arsten: can you do again? --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Removed the "editprotected" tag because I don't support addition of it. Please revert the addition of trans-related categories. He is NOT yet a "transsexual" or "transvestite". --George Ho (talk) 16:39, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Not true George. Manning was diagnosed with gender identity disorder many years ago, and this information was discussed many times during his trial. In the transcripts from 2010 (I think), Manning discussed his desire to transition. As such, with the now public declaration that he is a she, this category is clearly relevant.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:12, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is just great! You want to categorize him as such because of mere identity and disorder? That would be misinterpretations of the facts and be an original research, forbidden in Misplaced Pages. --George Ho (talk) 17:39, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- You may want to read Causes of transsexualism. Someone who was born as a man, but feels they are a woman, and then publicly comes out stating that they are a woman and want to transition, is by definition a transsexual (or transgendered) person. I don't think this is original research at all - a simple google search of "Transsexual + manning" provides lots of hits, dozens of articles have discussed the issues of Manning as a transsexual member of the military, and what rules/rights she would have as a result.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:49, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Nothing in this article convinces me to change my mind, even when it is well-detailed. There were sexuality rumours of Cary Grant, yet he is not categorized as 'homosexual' by categories. I stand where I stand. --George Ho (talk) 18:02, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- If cary Grant had come out with a public statement saying he was gay, he would certainly be in those categories. In this case, we have both: 1) Manning with a public statement saying he identifies as a woman and b) Multiple media sources who identify him as transsexual, transgendered and refer to same in the context of his military service. if that is not enough to put him in the categories, I'm not sure what is.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:18, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Nothing in this article convinces me to change my mind, even when it is well-detailed. There were sexuality rumours of Cary Grant, yet he is not categorized as 'homosexual' by categories. I stand where I stand. --George Ho (talk) 18:02, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- You may want to read Causes of transsexualism. Someone who was born as a man, but feels they are a woman, and then publicly comes out stating that they are a woman and want to transition, is by definition a transsexual (or transgendered) person. I don't think this is original research at all - a simple google search of "Transsexual + manning" provides lots of hits, dozens of articles have discussed the issues of Manning as a transsexual member of the military, and what rules/rights she would have as a result.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:49, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is just great! You want to categorize him as such because of mere identity and disorder? That would be misinterpretations of the facts and be an original research, forbidden in Misplaced Pages. --George Ho (talk) 17:39, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Not true George. Manning was diagnosed with gender identity disorder many years ago, and this information was discussed many times during his trial. In the transcripts from 2010 (I think), Manning discussed his desire to transition. As such, with the now public declaration that he is a she, this category is clearly relevant.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:12, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
From what I've heard, the military won't financially endorse his change plans. And I don't think the government will either. And I don't think his insurance will cover that, as well. Probably other foundations? And how much is one hormone therapy? And surgery? --George Ho (talk) 18:22, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Quite true - it may be a while before Manning can do those things. but perhaps you misunderstand what transsexual means (or at least, the category). It doesn't mean you've had surgery and hormone treatments and so on. You can be transsexual before you actually take any steps towards becoming your desired gender.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- How besides self-declaring? --George Ho (talk) 18:31, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Wait what? No you cant Transsexual latterly means trans (Moves to) one sex to the other. I think you are confusing it with Transgender like I did earlier. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:35, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict × 2) Well, there is "transgender and transsexual" in the same category name. --George Ho (talk) 18:39, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Manning is a trans woman therefore transgender, an umbrella term that includes many gender variant people. Sportfan5000 (talk) 19:31, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Please... enough! This guy's in jail; identifying self as trans-woman or transgender should not prompt categorization. It sends a bad message about trans-people. There is no way that we should basically categorize him, now that he is under military custody. And even calling himself a "woman" while in jail shouldn't be a mere source to add a category. --George Ho (talk) 20:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- George, can you please tell us, very clearly, what specifically you would require in order to justify this category. I note that Manning was already in another TG cAt, this new one was simply specifying military TG, and I've see no-one disputing that other cat.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:25, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, I'm torn. Policy WP:BLPCAT encourages self-identity, as well as guideline WP:EGRS#Sexuality. WP:CAT#Articles doesn't say much except use categories with caution and care. We can't expect him to win rights of receiving support from military or any other. However, sometimes I either find another policy or guideline to prove that categorization is not helpful, or ignore all rules (but I am unwilling to do so). --George Ho (talk) 20:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter what rights the military choose to accord her with regard to medical treatment for her gender identity. A transgender person is still a transgender person no matter what her surgical status is, no matter what the status of the legal paperwork process is. There are no conditions on a person's transgender status; they are transgender as soon as they say they are, no matter how far along in the process they have or haven't gotten. And at any rate, the courts have consistently found that people in prison do still have an unconditional right to receive treatment for their medical issues — we sentence people to prison, not to denial of medical treatment — and that has been found to include gender identity issues. So even if she has to fight in the courts to have her rights respected, she will win. Bearcat (talk) 22:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, I'm torn. Policy WP:BLPCAT encourages self-identity, as well as guideline WP:EGRS#Sexuality. WP:CAT#Articles doesn't say much except use categories with caution and care. We can't expect him to win rights of receiving support from military or any other. However, sometimes I either find another policy or guideline to prove that categorization is not helpful, or ignore all rules (but I am unwilling to do so). --George Ho (talk) 20:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- How on earth does the fact that she's in jail inherently negate being transgender? Bearcat (talk) 22:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- It doesn't.
"This guy's in jail; identifying self as trans-woman or transgender should not prompt categorization. It sends a bad message about trans-people. There is no way that we should basically categorize him, now that he is under military custody."
George Ho, two things:- I took a phone message while you were busy with that discussion: The trans-people of the world just called... they said that although they appreciate you looking out for them and all, they've decided to go with a different spokesperson – one who understood the difference between transgender, transsexual and transvestite.
- It is impossible to have any meaningful point/counterpoint discussion on this "point", because it is a totally invalid argument, founded on non sequitur.
- —Grollτech (talk) 06:52, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- It doesn't.
- George, can you please tell us, very clearly, what specifically you would require in order to justify this category. I note that Manning was already in another TG cAt, this new one was simply specifying military TG, and I've see no-one disputing that other cat.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:25, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Nevertheless, I expect a reverse of category change if the title becomes Bradley again. --George Ho (talk) 23:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- George, you didn't answer the question. You oppose these categories on this article, but you haven't stated clearly what would be needed to put a person justifiably in a trans- category (of which we have several). Also, categories have nothing to do with article titles except in rare cases - but no matter what title this article has now or in the future the categories should remain invariant. Categorization is based on what is 'defining', and I think there is plenty of evidence that secondary sources are referring to Manning as transgendered. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 00:48, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Establishing a consensus on categorization is too soon. HOwever, if you want an establishment now, that would be when he becomes a female biologically. That's it! --George Ho (talk) 00:57, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Good call. That would be while she was still in the womb though. See A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.
Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones
"Female biologically" is not as simple as it seems. There are people medically diagnosed as intersex male, then re-diagnosed as intersex female twenty years later (after puberty in their 40's). More common are natural female to male changes. Wiki's policies WP:BLPCAT deal with such fraught issues rather well. Based on Manning's build, any endocrinologist would suspect a high possibility of anatomical anomalies. XX chromosomes, partial androgen insensitivity, etc etc. She's 3 SDs from the male mean in several ways, from her photos, closer to a female mean. Zoe Brain (talk) 05:24, 24 August 2013 (UTC)- It's an interesting point, but nonetheless not that relevant to how we use the categories today. There are plenty of people in these categories who are probably, for all intents and purposes, biologically male yet which nonetheless identify as female and are in the process of transitioning. Per the definition, transgender does not require surgery or hormones. Thus I think TG categories are legitimate for Manning. Just as we don't require verification that a man is having sex with men in order to categorize him as gay, we don't require verification that a TG person has undergone surgery or hormones or other things before categorizing them as TG - we go by their own personal declarations and reliable sources, which in Manning's case we have in spades. So George, frankly, I think your "biological" requirement is not at all in line with past consensus on categorization of TG people.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 10:53, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well-said, Obi-Wan Kenobi.
"Nevertheless, I expect a reverse of category change if the title becomes Bradley again."
George, again with the non sequitur? Misplaced Pages's choice of page title has no bearing whatsoever on whether to categorize Manning as transgender. There are many different aspects to the discussions higher up on this page surrounding the appropriate title, but none of the ones I've read so far (besides yours) have gone to such lengths to challenge the very definition of the term transgender (I keep wikilinking the term, hoping that you will actually click on it and learn). As far as I can tell, George, you are the only person arguing this particular POV, which, absent valid reliable sources to back it up, is nothing more than WP:OR. —Grollτech (talk) 06:52, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well-said, Obi-Wan Kenobi.
- It's an interesting point, but nonetheless not that relevant to how we use the categories today. There are plenty of people in these categories who are probably, for all intents and purposes, biologically male yet which nonetheless identify as female and are in the process of transitioning. Per the definition, transgender does not require surgery or hormones. Thus I think TG categories are legitimate for Manning. Just as we don't require verification that a man is having sex with men in order to categorize him as gay, we don't require verification that a TG person has undergone surgery or hormones or other things before categorizing them as TG - we go by their own personal declarations and reliable sources, which in Manning's case we have in spades. So George, frankly, I think your "biological" requirement is not at all in line with past consensus on categorization of TG people.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 10:53, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Good call. That would be while she was still in the womb though. See A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.
- Establishing a consensus on categorization is too soon. HOwever, if you want an establishment now, that would be when he becomes a female biologically. That's it! --George Ho (talk) 00:57, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
Sourcing
470 Google news hits for "Chelsea Manning", many RSes - David Gerard (talk) 19:22, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- It should be noted that many of those sources refer to Manning, first and foremost, as Bradley. Deep Purple Dreams (talk) 19:42, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oh yeah, I haven't been through the list. But many do use "Chelsea", "she", "her", and it's accelerating. So apart from the original BLP and MOS:IDENTITY considerations supporting the present title (and as noted above, other pages note that titles are included in rules concerning article text), by the end of the seven days I strongly suspect the press will actually substantially support it as well (though in this context, that's basically a bonus) - David Gerard (talk) 19:49, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- We should be guided by Wiki policy on WP:BLP and WP:Article Titles, not Google hits. Liz 20:46, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- References allow for an argument under WP:COMMONNAME. LFaraone 20:52, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- We should be guided by Wiki policy on WP:BLP and WP:Article Titles, not Google hits. Liz 20:46, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oh, definitely. However, it's a concern expressed by many people above. That's why I say "basically a bonus", not the meat of the reason - David Gerard (talk) 20:54, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- You mean the original BLP considerations that you still have not seen fit to explain? Miraculouschaos (talk) 04:53, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I've explained them ad nauseam. At this point, I don't think it's unfair to say "go through the history, thanks" - David Gerard (talk) 20:16, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- @Miraculouschaos: Oh, just give it up. David is not going to ever explain how he felt the title Bradley Manning constituted a BLP violation. At this point, I don't think it's unfair to say he just moved the article according to his wishes and used BLP as a smokescreen for the wheel-warring action. -- tariqabjotu 21:57, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- It's above in the section "Wheel warring", on this very page. You don't like the answer, but your repeated claim that I haven't given an answer has been answered by me multiple times. At this point this is a prima facie case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Please stop claiming I haven't answered when the answer's right there - David Gerard (talk) 22:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- In Talk:Chelsea Manning/Archive 5#Wheel warring?, your only mention of "BLP" is when you said
I wouldn't have reverted the move except for BLP considerations
. That's you just saying that you felt the Bradley Manning title was a BLP violation, something one could easily discern from the edit summary you used during the move. That does not, however, explain how or why you felt the Bradley Manning title was a BLP violation. I really don't know how I can be any clearer. The reason people keep bringing this up is because, no, you have truly, never answered this question (at least not on this talk page, nor, apparently, anywhere else). -- tariqabjotu 06:54, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- In Talk:Chelsea Manning/Archive 5#Wheel warring?, your only mention of "BLP" is when you said
Media commentary on possible Manning "ploy"
Having lived with a transgender person for 17 years, I personally think Manning is sincere. However, it should be noted that searching Chelsea Manning and ploy in news one finds a number of outlets have questioned his sincerity and this might be mentioned, though I'm not going to write it. Associate Press; CBS news; NBC; NY Post; Charleston Post Courier; Daily Mail; etc. User:Carolmooredc 20:57, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- This kind of article mentioned elsewhere here is an effective reply to these kinds of comments and these probably should be presented together, if anyone's interested in doing it: Chelsea Manning's case puts focus on transgender rights in prisons, Amanda Holpuch, theguardian.com, 22 August 2013. User:Carolmooredc 23:51, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- None of those articles actually quote any named reliable source who has claimed that Manning is not sincere. Ergo, there's nothing for Misplaced Pages to say about the matter. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I do not think that you actually read the sources thoroughly;
- CBS newsGreg Rinckey, a former Army prosecutor and now a lawyer in Albany, N.Y., said Manning's statement could be a ploy to get him transferred to a civilian prison. "He might be angling to go there because he believes life at a federal prison could be easier than life at the disciplinary barracks at Fort Leavenworth," Rinckey said.
- Tarc (talk) 02:54, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- An apparently-randomly-selected "former Army prosecutor and lawyer in Albany, N.Y." is not a reliable source for the purposes of making comments about someone's psychology and gender identity. His claim is not supported by any actual evidence presented, nor is there any indication that Rinckey has any pertinent knowledge or understanding of Manning's psychology or gender identity that would enable him to make informed judgments about those subjects. See our guideline on identifying reliable sources on medical topics - Manning's gender identity is, indeed, a medical topic.
- If there is a medical professional with training and experience in psychology and gender identity who has questioned Manning's expressed identity, that would, indeed, be a reliable source for medical issues. Otherwise, what we have to work with are apparently-baseless speculation and rumormongering, none of which have any place in the biography of a living person. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:05, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Hmm, so first it was "none quote any named reliable source", to which I provide a source that says just that. Then your argument moves to "well, he isn't a medical professional". Nice bit of goalpost-shifting there. Tarc (talk) 03:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, it's really not. "Reliable source" in the context of any medical issue must be considered in light of WP:MEDRS. That you appear not to have known about WP:MEDRS before declaring the unsupported waffling speculation of a lawyer to be an acceptable source for claims about a person's psychology and gender identity is obvious. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:47, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- There is no requirement at all that this MEDRS thing be followed in any article at any time. This isn't a court of law, we do not call expert witnesses to the stand to testify on our behalf. If reliable sources quote people such as a former Army prosecutor on whether or not they feel Manning is's coming-out is a diversionary ploy, then that is 100% acceptable to use in this article. You're attempting to limit such commentary to "trans gender experts", and there's no way in hell that is going to be allowed to happen here. What that amounts to is censorship of opinions that you disagree with. Tarc (talk) 03:56, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- 'Speculation from some random lawyer' doesn't usually pass WP:RS, regardless of the issues involved... AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:00, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is the biography of a living person, and we don't quote random people speculating about a living person's health with neither a single shred of credible evidence nor a single iota of expertise in the field of medicine which might support that speculation. It is not censorship to make editorial decisions about what is and is not included. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:01, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- If the speculation is in a reliable source, it can and will be included. You may certainly include testimony of trans experts as well as they are found in reliable sources. This is how we go about WP:NPOV after all, ensuring that all significant points of view are represented fairly. Tarc (talk) 04:05, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- The speculation isn't from a reliable source - it is from a random lawyer with nothing to base his opinion on. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:10, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, that's really not how we do things when they relate to a person's psychology and sexual identity. For example, we don't include unfounded speculative claims that someone is gay or lesbian. Moreover, you have in no way proved that the unfounded speculative claims of a random lawyer represent a "significant point of view" rather than a fringe theory. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:12, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- If the speculation is in a reliable source, it can and will be included. You may certainly include testimony of trans experts as well as they are found in reliable sources. This is how we go about WP:NPOV after all, ensuring that all significant points of view are represented fairly. Tarc (talk) 04:05, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- There is no requirement at all that this MEDRS thing be followed in any article at any time. This isn't a court of law, we do not call expert witnesses to the stand to testify on our behalf. If reliable sources quote people such as a former Army prosecutor on whether or not they feel Manning is's coming-out is a diversionary ploy, then that is 100% acceptable to use in this article. You're attempting to limit such commentary to "trans gender experts", and there's no way in hell that is going to be allowed to happen here. What that amounts to is censorship of opinions that you disagree with. Tarc (talk) 03:56, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, it's really not. "Reliable source" in the context of any medical issue must be considered in light of WP:MEDRS. That you appear not to have known about WP:MEDRS before declaring the unsupported waffling speculation of a lawyer to be an acceptable source for claims about a person's psychology and gender identity is obvious. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:47, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Hmm, so first it was "none quote any named reliable source", to which I provide a source that says just that. Then your argument moves to "well, he isn't a medical professional". Nice bit of goalpost-shifting there. Tarc (talk) 03:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
For those that might have missed it: Manning mentions her gender identity issues in the chat with Adrian Lamo, i.e. privately in confidence and long before she was arrested, so claiming this is only a ploy is just ignorant. Space simian (talk) 06:29, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
WP shouldn't be ignoring the legal aspect of this story because of an editor's misguided notion that an Army lawyer needs medical expertise to opine about the legal ramifications of Manning's request to be recognized as a transgender in a military prison.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 18:18, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
My view on name change
Please post your comments on the move discussion in the RM above, under the appropriate date. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 10:58, 24 August 2013 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
In my opinion it is way to early to change this persons name from Bradley to Chelsea. First of all has there been any official name change paperwork? Are we sure this is the will of Bradley or just a ploy to get out of prison faster?. And my main point is that this person is known under the name of Bradley when all of the notable things happened to him, to look at similar case check out Thomas Quick. He has a different name now but his article is named after the name he had when the notable things occured for him to get a article. I think we are all jumping on the "crazy train" a bit too fast. I would say that we should have his name as Bradley Manning even if his name is changed to Chelsea, or atleast wait and have an consensus discussion when he officially has changed his name.--BabbaQ (talk) 22:00, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I agree. There are too many fast moving pieces to this process. In a few weeks, when there are consistent and unconfused reports that a legal change-of-name has occurred then a name change might be appropriate. BlueSalix (talk) 01:27, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- There is no requirement that anyone go through a legal process to change their name. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:16, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
Hat note (edit request)
 | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I put through this edit to the page hat note, then noticed the page protection level, and have self-reverted to repost here.
It's a high profile current event BLP, with a very unfamiliar title. The hat states it's "about Chelsea Manning", and there is a high risk that someone (especially on a mobile device) who looked up Bradley Manning will find a page about someone called "Chelsea Manning", a hatnote "This article is about Chelsea Manning" - and without a mention in the hat of a prior name, the perception will be "incorrect link" and failure to find the article or even realize the name change.
To mitigate this, the above edit added "(birth name Bradley Manning)" to the hat, and nothing more. Traditionally the hat disambiguates. Here it helps to say "you are at the right place" if someone arrives at Chelsea Manning.
While his statement (as quoted) asks to be referred to by his female name, the intro gives his immensely better known birth name, and I think the reality of the situation of unfamiliar readers means noting it in the hat will help our readers to not be confused on reaching it.
So I'd like to ask for consensus if people will agree to allow that edit, in the hatnote only. Thanks. FT2 22:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- (To be clear, this isn't about "correct"/"incorrect" naming, which is discussed in other sections. This is about helping readers whatever the title. FT2 22:20, 23 August 2013 (UTC))
- I don't think this is necessary. I just looked it up on my phone by typing in "wiki bradley manning" - the Google page that comes up includes both names, and the first line of the article with both names is visible. (Samsung Galaxy SIII, Android, in Firefox) - David Gerard (talk) 22:25, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Hi FT, I'd appreciate it if you would wait for an uninvolved admin to decide whether the edit needs to be made, as well as waiting for consensus from others. There have been too many admins editing through protection today, so I think everyone else needs to lead by example. SlimVirgin 22:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I self-reverted almost immediately when I realized, before posting this (see 1st line of above and page history). You must have not realized this. Nice to see you round anyhow SV! FT2 22:47, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry if I came across as snippy; it's just frustration at watching people edit through protection, and I misunderstood your post to mean you were going to make the edit yourself. But anyway, nice to see you too. :) SlimVirgin 23:22, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I self-reverted almost immediately when I realized, before posting this (see 1st line of above and page history). You must have not realized this. Nice to see you round anyhow SV! FT2 22:47, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
(edit conflict) *Support. I think this edit is helpful. My phone is BlackBerry and on the first screen I see the title, the hat note and the infobox. Mohamed CJ (talk) 22:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
I checked this out on my phone, also. When I Google the subject in the browser (Chrome, for what it's worth), I see the Google blurb, "Chelsea E. Manning (born Bradley Edward Manning, December 17, 1987) is a United States Army soldier who was...", which I think clears up some confusion. However, in the Misplaced Pages mobile app, I see the image to the right, which has no mention of her birth name.
- The (born...) was reverted as the article was protected. This section is a request for consensus to put it in as you describe it. FT2 22:47, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Er, I'm confused... "(born...)" is still showing in Google results, and is the current wording of the first sentence of the lead section. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:56, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Read again - this isn't about the lead. It's about the hat/dab note that is the first thing readers see. FT2 23:14, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Right. I provided the screenshot to demonstrate that "Bradley Manning" is not immediately visible when using the mobile app. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:01, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Read again - this isn't about the lead. It's about the hat/dab note that is the first thing readers see. FT2 23:14, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Er, I'm confused... "(born...)" is still showing in Google results, and is the current wording of the first sentence of the lead section. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:56, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Use "Pvt Manning". Serves the purpose and should be entirely non-controversial. (edit conflict) —me_and 23:21, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Definitely don't use "Pvt". If the title is required (and I'm not sure it is) then use "Private". Thryduulf (talk) 23:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- support Very good point - the name Bradley should be more prominent esp for mobile users.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 11:01, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Done. I've readded FT2's wording to the hatnote. If there is a consensus to tweak this wording after further discussion, please reactivate the {{edit protected}} template. — Mr. Stradivarius 09:23, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Is this hatnote addition still needed? We have Bradley Manning in the first sentence, and now thanks to later edits it is also in the lead-image caption and the infobox. If any of those can be seen when accessing the article with cell phones, we can remove the hatnote; otherwise we're repeating the birth name four times at the top of the article. SlimVirgin 21:38, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Higher order planning
In the event that the closing admin decides to move the article back, has anyone given any thought to the possibility that Misplaced Pages is going to be on the receiving end of one of the largest media shitstorms it's ever generated? Because the number of overtly transphobic votes (which is not all "support" votes, but which is certainly a healthy number of them) combined with the fact that the entire British press and a large swath of the American press have gone over to using Chelsea is going to make going back (when we've already been the subject of several stories about how we've moved the page) a Very Big Thing. The accusation that Misplaced Pages actively chose to be more transphobic is going to have some real legs. (Especially given that the precedent from past public figures who came out as trans was a swift move of their articles, and so this really would be widely seen as a step backwards.)
To be clear, I'm not saying that expected public reaction should be the determining factor. But I am saying that anybody involved in the decision-making here, particularly anybody who decides to move the article back to Bradley Manning, should be preparing themselves for a few days of being a minor celebrity. Phil Sandifer (talk) 00:01, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I'm sure they appreciate your totally altruistic statement of concern for their well-being. Miraculouschaos (talk) 03:45, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- It's going to be a shit storm either way. The botched process has assured of that. As it stands, at least one contributor is already making minor a celebrity of themselves through instigating the move to Chelsea Manning. The impression being given in interview is that the reason for opposing the move is because of bigotry (or "transphobia") and ignorance.
- This is not good for the project. And I don't think it's fair to categorise opposition to the article title as "transphobic". I haven't seen any significant opposition to referring to Manning as Chelsea (and using female pronouns) within the article. The issue, for the most part as far as I can see it, is limited to the article title. Deciding an article titles has a unique set of criteria, within which the subject's chosen gender identify or name is of no consequence.
- There is undoubtedly a section of "Bradley" !voters who are opposed to recognising transgender identity. However, there is an equally visible component of "Chelsea" !voters who see this as an opportunity for activism (see also Misplaced Pages:Activist). Whatever about the validity and value of their position on the subject of transgender people and identity outside of Misplaced Pages, Misplaced Pages is not the place to advance any agenda. And no-one should assume opposition to this article being at Chelsea Manning as being evidence of "transphobia". --RA (✍) 00:24, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Which other reason do you suggest exists for insisting on referring to someone using a male given name, that they have explicitly asked not to be used and said they do not identify with? I think you will find that according to the common definition in polite society, at least in the media world outside of Misplaced Pages, this is probably the most common form of transphobia. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:42, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Perhaps you should actually, you know, read the rationales given for "support move back" votes to find out. Miraculouschaos (talk) 03:33, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Which other reason do you suggest exists for insisting on referring to someone using a male given name, that they have explicitly asked not to be used and said they do not identify with? I think you will find that according to the common definition in polite society, at least in the media world outside of Misplaced Pages, this is probably the most common form of transphobia. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:42, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see very many people insisting that Manning should be referred to as Bradley or referred to as he. What the move discussion is about is asking what should the article be named - NOT Manning. The most relevant criteria for naming the article in this case are "recognizability" and "naturalness". "Bradley Manning" is currently the most recognisable and natural name for the article (see the definition of the terms "recognisable" and "natural"). Within the article Manning (the individual) should be called Chelsea (their chosen name) and referred to as her. But that is not what the discussion is about. --RA (✍) 01:25, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Moving the article back to the now outdated and inaccurate name, thereby titling an article on a transgendered person in a deeply offensive manner, would indeed be a PR disaster for Misplaced Pages, as pointed out both because it's unacceptable in polite society in itself, and also because of all the transphobic commentary on this talk page, including comparisons of transgendered people to dogs and other animals. It would of course also be an obvious violation of the BLP policy. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:27, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- What section of BLP policy are you specifically referring to? --RA (✍) 00:29, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Christ, read the talk page, don't feel like reiterating it for the 200th time. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I've read this talk page but I haven't heard mention of the specific section of Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons that having this article at Bradley Manning is supposed to be in violation of. Can you indicate which section of BLP policy having this article at that title violated? --RA (✍) 00:43, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, because this discussion is not about that, and because that issue has been discussed very thoroughly in other sections. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:49, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- You raised the issue in this section. Go on, it will only take you a few words. Even just post the raw link to the section of Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons that having this article at Bradley Manning would violate. No? --RA (✍) 01:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, because I said no. Josh Gorand (talk) 01:11, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Are you here to have a real discussion? you have used your "No because im right and you are wrong so there" argument more than once now. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:16, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Josh, we all want to know what section you're referring to. I personally do not remember which, if any, specific sections anyone has quoted. You can even point us to a comment above that references the appropriate section. CaseyPenk (talk) 01:51, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, because I said no. Josh Gorand (talk) 01:11, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- You raised the issue in this section. Go on, it will only take you a few words. Even just post the raw link to the section of Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons that having this article at Bradley Manning would violate. No? --RA (✍) 01:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, because this discussion is not about that, and because that issue has been discussed very thoroughly in other sections. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:49, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I've read this talk page but I haven't heard mention of the specific section of Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons that having this article at Bradley Manning is supposed to be in violation of. Can you indicate which section of BLP policy having this article at that title violated? --RA (✍) 00:43, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Christ, read the talk page, don't feel like reiterating it for the 200th time. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- What section of BLP policy are you specifically referring to? --RA (✍) 00:29, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Except it's not been a shit storm. We've talked about Chelsea Manning on the frontpage for two days now, and so far all there's been is polite applause from the media. Which is why I think undoing it risks a mess. Phil Sandifer (talk) 00:46, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I stopped reading when you called people who oppose the Chelsea title "transphobic", this is not the first time I have seen users here attacking others with keep as Bradley opinions. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:52, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Phil merely employed the mainstream, common definition of transphobia. The idea that you can insist on childishly calling someone who states her name is Chelsea, "Bradley", is really a WP:FRINGE POV and not encyclopedic at all. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:56, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I actually just called some support voters transphobic. The fact that there are support voters whose reasoning is explicitly opposition to the idea of trans people is a real problem. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:28, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- "Chelsea Manning" is not Mainstream in the media is the problem. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:59, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- That's demonstrably untrue. Plenty of English language sources are using it at this point, as has been well documented. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:28, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- If or when the number of sources of the article referring to the subject as Chelsea gets anywhere near the number of sources of the article referring to the subject as Bradley, then that would be an appropriate time to discuss moving the article to Chelsea Manning. Not current media stories, but existing sources of the article. This is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. Miraculouschaos (talk) 03:51, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- That's not actually what policy says - the article naming policy notes that following a subject's renaming we should consider post-renaming sources. Hence Willis Tower despite, you know, decades of it being called the Sears Tower. Phil Sandifer (talk) 07:02, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- If or when the number of sources of the article referring to the subject as Chelsea gets anywhere near the number of sources of the article referring to the subject as Bradley, then that would be an appropriate time to discuss moving the article to Chelsea Manning. Not current media stories, but existing sources of the article. This is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. Miraculouschaos (talk) 03:51, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- That's demonstrably untrue. Plenty of English language sources are using it at this point, as has been well documented. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:28, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- "Chelsea Manning" is not Mainstream in the media is the problem. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:59, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Agreed, Misplaced Pages has been commended, lauded for doing the decent thing, thanks to Morwen, in a timely fashion. I see no shitstorm at all over that, on the contrary. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:50, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I stopped reading when you called people who oppose the Chelsea title "transphobic", this is not the first time I have seen users here attacking others with keep as Bradley opinions. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:52, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- We don't write for polite applause from the media. And the fact that the media are commenting on the way we are taking a lead on this question is an indicator of the problem. We are an encyclopaedia, a tertiary source, and BLPs ought to be written conservatively. We are not doing our job when we lead the way on anything.
- But yes, now that we've drawn attention to ourselves, and drawn "polite applause" it probably will be noticed when we roll back. But we just as we don't write for polite applause from the media, we don't revert to our usual conservatism (in terms of approach to writing, not politics) because we fear their scorn. The lesson to be learnt from this is not to rush headlong into a move like this again. Discuss first, not after. --RA (✍) 01:00, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- What I want to know is why the admin not follow WP:TITLECHANGES? This has been brought up and keeps getting brushed aside. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:03, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- There are no compromises made when it comes to factual accuracy and BLP. The only source for someone's name is the person him/herself. We change it as soon as it's established to be correct. We do the same for dates of birth. Even if many media reported a wrong date of birth for someone, we would use the correct one. Josh Gorand (talk) 01:15, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Certainly. But what has this got to do with the current discussion about the title of this article? Many articles (including BLPs) are at titles that are not the names (self-chosen or otherwise) of their subject. The name of the article is the name of the article - and NOT necessarily the name of the person. --RA (✍) 01:51, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- There are no compromises made when it comes to factual accuracy and BLP. The only source for someone's name is the person him/herself. We change it as soon as it's established to be correct. We do the same for dates of birth. Even if many media reported a wrong date of birth for someone, we would use the correct one. Josh Gorand (talk) 01:15, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I wonder if those who have placed so much concern toward offending this individual (presuming titling the article as Bradley Manning would truly offensive...) maintain that gusto toward every issue. When someone complains about gruesome or sexually explicit content on the Main Page. When discussing images of Muhammad in Muhammad or Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy. Everywhere where potential for offense exists. LGBT issues are of increasing concern in the Western world and the Anglosphere, and the strength of the crusade some (not all) of those preferring the Chelsea Manning name have embarked upon seems to reflect that. Of course, when the issue is not so prominently objectionable in Western and liberal circles, we seem perfectly content invoking our policies and guidelines prohibiting censorship and permitting content that subjects may not like so long as it's appropriately verifiable. There's a reason Misplaced Pages policy and guidelines exist: so we can aim to make decisions neutrally without reference to our personal opinions. These remarks centered around emotional appeal are irrelevant. -- tariqabjotu 01:30, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- We do take special care with biographies of living people that we don't with other articles. And believe me, the discussions over sexually explicit content and the Muhammad article were heated and extensive. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:35, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think it comes down to numbers in the end. The Arabic article for Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy hides the cartoons, probably under a locally achieved consensus. There are local exceptions to every rule, and there may be some here for the purpose of clarity. Shii (tock) 02:26, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- We do take special care with biographies of living people that we don't with other articles. And believe me, the discussions over sexually explicit content and the Muhammad article were heated and extensive. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:35, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I am actually consistent about giving priority to self-affiliation.. Not long ago i argued Mohammed Farah should be Mo Farah because thats how the BLP self-describes. If we are getting into the business of forcefully choosing peoples names, why should we not be able to forcefeed religion onto others too? Or forcefeed a certain nutritional diet onto others? Its batshit crazy retarded. Pass a Method talk 02:50, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- No one here is proposing forcing a name on the person who is subject of this article. Bradley Manning is the name used by every source more than two days old, which comprise the vast majority of the sources for the article. Misplaced Pages follows the sources, not the other way around. Miraculouschaos (talk) 03:41, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- yes but we should stay up to date as well shouldn't we? Every source prior to 2009 says that michael jackson is alove. Does that mean we should wait until the new sources balance out the old sources before we describe MJ as dead? Absolute nonsense. Pass a Method talk 04:08, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Not a good analogy. I'm unaware of any article titles that describe the living/dead status of the subject, and I would certainly think it inappropriate to edit the Michael Jackson article to refer to him as "the late Michael Jackson" in the section on his childhood.Miraculouschaos (talk) 04:15, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Forget the analogies and wikipedia policies for a second. At some point logic should trump all else. Who gets to choose the name of an adult? Should it not be that person him/herself? Its pure logic. Pass a Method talk 04:19, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- We're not deciding the subject's name; we're deciding the title of the article. -- tariqabjotu 04:25, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- If it exists, the right to decide one's own name for oneself does not imply a right to have other people use that name. And as much as I would love to get into a deep metaphysical discussion on the nature of names, this isn't the right forum. Miraculouschaos (talk) 04:32, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- His parents named him Bradley. So you think parents should get precedence?Pass a Method talk 04:45, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- You know that is not what was being said, and I think this string is getting very far off topic from "higher order planning". Misplaced Pages should be neutral, nobody cares who gave who what name. We care about what name is the name that is publicly and popularly associated with the subject of the article in primary and secondary sources. --Sam Bingner 07:52, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- His parents named him Bradley. So you think parents should get precedence?Pass a Method talk 04:45, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Forget the analogies and wikipedia policies for a second. At some point logic should trump all else. Who gets to choose the name of an adult? Should it not be that person him/herself? Its pure logic. Pass a Method talk 04:19, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Not a good analogy. I'm unaware of any article titles that describe the living/dead status of the subject, and I would certainly think it inappropriate to edit the Michael Jackson article to refer to him as "the late Michael Jackson" in the section on his childhood.Miraculouschaos (talk) 04:15, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- yes but we should stay up to date as well shouldn't we? Every source prior to 2009 says that michael jackson is alove. Does that mean we should wait until the new sources balance out the old sources before we describe MJ as dead? Absolute nonsense. Pass a Method talk 04:08, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- No one here is proposing forcing a name on the person who is subject of this article. Bradley Manning is the name used by every source more than two days old, which comprise the vast majority of the sources for the article. Misplaced Pages follows the sources, not the other way around. Miraculouschaos (talk) 03:41, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I am actually consistent about giving priority to self-affiliation.. Not long ago i argued Mohammed Farah should be Mo Farah because thats how the BLP self-describes. If we are getting into the business of forcefully choosing peoples names, why should we not be able to forcefeed religion onto others too? Or forcefeed a certain nutritional diet onto others? Its batshit crazy retarded. Pass a Method talk 02:50, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
"Manning has had gender identity disorder since childhood"
- "Manning has had gender identity disorder since childhood":
This is currently presented as a statement of fact. It may or may not be a claim that Manning or some other person has made, but cannot have been factually established at this time. In any case, the citation given for the statement (Stamp, Scott (August 22, 2013). "Bradley Manning: I want to live as a woman". today.com) makes no mention at all of any such disorder, nor of Manning's childhood. Milkunderwood (talk) 05:06, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Of course it can be factually established, if it has been diagnosed by a competent medical professional. But you're correct that the statement should be attributed to a reliable source, and if it cannot be attributed to a reliable source, should be removed. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:13, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes of course it can be factually established - I said it cannot have been so at this time. Milkunderwood (talk) 05:21, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I'd spotted that earlier (among other similar statements). It implies that Manning was diagnosed or recognised as having a disorder as a child or since childhood. I'm not even too sure if Manning has been diagnosed or recognised has having a disorder by a relevant practitioner as an adult (though I do understand that Manning has self identified as such).
- For those crying out about BLP policy, this is the kind of thing that needs sourcing per BLP policy. Can someone please provide a source for this statement, else it will need to be removed or amended. --RA (✍) 12:26, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Actually it's not hard to resolve. Never forget the useful tool, "X says Y": Simply attribute what we do have.
- According to Manning, (etc since childhood)
- On (TV channel) on (date) Manning's lawyer/clinician/whoever, stated that (etc since childhood)
- Manning had repeatedly referred to (lifestyle) in his past activities, and had stated to his clinician that (etc since childhood)
- Three easy answers to attribution. FT2 12:33, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- If you read the transcripts of the trial, several psychologists attest to Manning's diagnosis of GID/Gender dysphoria. I'm not sure if they note how far back it goes, but this is most certainly not a new thing. We could rephrase for now as suggested by FT2 - Manning claims to XXX since childhood, and army psychologists diagnosed him with GID in 200x. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 12:50, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Indeed. It's easy enough to say how NPOV sees the points raised by editors above. We cannot say "since childhood" if we don't have reliable sources attesting to that, for example if it is unevidenced or overly contentious to say a start date or period in his life it began "from". But as you say, we can say what Manning claims of its duration and "since when", and we can say what psychologists say. If by chance we lack a source saying authoritatively "It has been that way since childhood" (even though it seems very likely or he claims it himself), and that's an issue, then we can easily say "Manning claims that" or "3 psychiatrists testified that" and solve it that way. FT2 16:28, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- If you read the transcripts of the trial, several psychologists attest to Manning's diagnosis of GID/Gender dysphoria. I'm not sure if they note how far back it goes, but this is most certainly not a new thing. We could rephrase for now as suggested by FT2 - Manning claims to XXX since childhood, and army psychologists diagnosed him with GID in 200x. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 12:50, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Actually it's not hard to resolve. Never forget the useful tool, "X says Y": Simply attribute what we do have.
Manning addressed as a "she"?
Manning was born a male, is a male and will continue to be a male despite his so-called "gender identity" problems. It's ridiculous that the whole article addresses him as a she rather than a he, as it should be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PikkoroDaimao (talk • contribs) 09:18, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oh yeah, no trans-phobia there at all... NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:51, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- MOS:IDENTITY is clear on this issue, take a look. U-Mos (talk) 10:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
His gender changeover occurred after the important events surrounding him took place. Shouldn't that be taken into consideration? Also,I believe everyone has a right to exercise their freedom and lifestyle in their own way but his name is Bradley Manning and he should be addressed as a man.You can't just put the trans-phobic label on everyone with this opinion. (MightySaiyan (talk) 10:47, 24 August 2013 (UTC))
- Actually, yes, I can put the trans-phobic label on everyone with that opinion.
- "I believe everyone has a right to exercise their freedom and lifestyle in their own way but John Doe is a man and he should not be allowed to marry another man" is unambiguously homophobic.
- "I believe everyone has a right to exercise their freedom and lifestyle in their own way but John Doe is a black man and he should not be allowed to marry a white woman" is unambiguously racist.
- Please explain how your argument is not unambiguously transphobic. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:08, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I do not share MightySaiyan's view on this, but the analogous transphobic comment to your examples would be "I believe everyone has a right to exercise their freedom and lifestyle in their own way but Bradley Manning is a man and should not be able to live as a woman." That's not at all what was said, MightySaiyan was talking about Manning's legal name and his views on what that should mean for the wording on an encyclopedic article. Such inflammatory responses to that are helping no one. U-Mos (talk) 14:05, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- This discussion has been had UMPTEEN times on this page already. Please drop the stick, both of you. Focus on content. The article currently uses "she", and will likely continue to do so unless MOS:IDENTITY has changed. Thus, there's not much more to say here.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 12:52, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Do we have evidence she was born as a he? Any medical assessment of genitalia and chromosomes at the moment of birth (from reputable sources, of course) ? Vexorian (talk) 16:47, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
Suggest some arguments may be better placed as suggestions for policy change
I can't speak for everyone supporting moving this page back to Bradley Manning, but my arguments for doing so are purely based on Misplaced Pages policies as I see them. Specifically those at Misplaced Pages:Article titles. It seems clear from the comments on this talk page that in transgender cases such as these, however, what might be the WP:COMMONNAME may also be considered as perpetuating prejudices, and detrimental to the personal difficulties the subject is or was going through. These are fair arguments, but they are not directly supported by policy. Might it then be an idea for those who feel strongly about the conventions that should be followed in such cases to suggest that an explicit mention of what to do in cases where a name is changed for transgender reasons be added to Misplaced Pages:Article titles, in the wake of the discussions here. Certainly, if policy directly dictated that articles on such subjects should be named as per the person's current chosen name as MOS:IDENTITY does for personal pronouns in the article text, there would be very little room for objection. Might a policy discussion be a way to solve this, not just for now but forever? U-Mos (talk) 10:30, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Such a discussion is happening already at the talk page of WP:AT I believe.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 11:07, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you very much, I thought on the basis of arguments here that there wasn't one. In that case I would suggest that any arguments along the lines of it being offensive/wrong to use Bradley as the article title etc. be diverted there, as that discussion is the best place for those views to have a lasting effect of Wiki-policy. U-Mos (talk) 12:49, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
Article title and lede
There's been a lot of discussion. I think we need to close this and unprotect the article so it can be updated. What's clear from all the discussions and policy is that we go with whatever the reliable sources use. If Bradley Manning is how the subject has been referred to in the vast majority of sources, that's what we would use. It will be least surprising for the reader to find an article with a title that matches what they have understood the subject to be about. The subject is notable for events that occurred while she was known as Bradley Manning. It is also verifiable that she has changed her name to Chelsea Manning. This article is about the subject and her historical importance, the vast majority of which occured while she was known as Bradley Manning.
May I suggest that the article be titled Bradley Manning, as the subject was historically known, and as their name appears in all the reports establishing her notability, but the first line of the article state that she is now known as Chelsea? As for pronouns throughout the article, if there are past tense events when she was a he, it would seem logical to use "he" and for events occuring after she declared herself to be female, then use "she".
The current lead paragraph is defective because it uses the less-well known name, and does not explain how Bradley became Chelsea. The lead should clearly state that on such a date Bradley declared that he was a she, and that her name would now be Chelsea. Something like this would be better (assuming I've got the chronology right):
- Bradley Edward Manning, born December 17, 1987 (now known as Chelsea E. Manning) is a United States Army soldier who was convicted in July 2013 of several violations of the Espionage Act and other offenses, after releasing the largest set of restricted documents ever leaked to the public. He was sentenced to 35 years in prison and dishonorably discharged. After sentencing, Manning declared that she was transgender female, and had chosen the new name Chelsea E. Manning. She will be eligible for parole after serving one third of her sentence, and together with credits for time served and good behavior could be released eight years after sentencing.
As for the photos, I think it makes sense to use one showing Manning in uniform, because that's what he was notable for--being in the military and leaking secret documents. Immediately below the current photo there can be a newer photo showing the Chelsea identity. Somebody clever could even form a new image by splicing the two together, one above the other.
The arguments that carry no weight are those involving original research. We do not as Misplaced Pages editors attempt to determine the law or say how society should deal with people. We simply follow what reliable sources say. All editors need to be tolerant and realize that this is an unusual situation, that we will probably get things wrong for a while, but eventually get them right. All editors also need to realize that this is NOT the place for advocacy of any causes, whether those are pro-human rights causes, or bigoted causes.
Can we please get the article unprotected? If you support the above summary, please say so below. Jehochman 13:32, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is a complex and messy talk page, but the creation of a new section like this that continues old discussions only adds to the confusion. In the above, you are addressing multiple overlapping issues. I'd suggest you break up your comment and place things in the appropriate sections, e.g.
- the section on whether the RM should be closed early
- The RM, and what you think the article should be titled
- The section discussing the photo
- Create a new edit request suggesting changes to the lede.
- Thanks! --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:48, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- If it were that obviously clear, this talk page wouldn't be the size it is - David Gerard (talk) 13:51, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- We need to disregard the activists on both sides, and the trolls, and listen to the opinions those who don't have any stake in the outcome other than to have a concise, informative, accurate article. Jehochman 21:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- It is possible that this will not in fact be a decision of such obvious and elegant simplicity as to be intuitively obviously the right thing to everyone - David Gerard (talk) 21:07, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Easier said than done. Rather than trying to second guess other editors motivations the best one can do is to consider the arguments and facts as neutrally as possible regardless of who wrote them. Space simian (talk) 21:20, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
a modest proposal - put move discussion on sub-page?
This page is now over 1MB in size. What if we were to move the "move" discussion to a separate sub-page, and concentrate all discussion about the article title there? Then the main talk page could be used for other discussions, around pronouns, and misc edit requests, etc.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:11, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Make the archive cycle 24 hours first, I'd say. (Also, if we mark the "date" sections "sticky", will that keep them from being archived?)
- The page is relatively easy to edit if you do it by section - David Gerard (talk) 14:53, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I was thinking of putting it to archive after 24 hours too, but that also seems a bit short - esp over a weekend- and may lead to much rehashing of discussions already ongoing that temporarily peter out. Even the current setting (2 days) is aggressive for now, but its probably reasonable.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:57, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think nothing whatsoever will stop the rehashing of discussions - David Gerard (talk) 15:19, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
NPR Guidance
Might be useful once the article is editable again: http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/08/23/214941331/npr-issues-new-guidance-on-mannings-gender-identity. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:41, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- A great example of the thoughtful discussion that is happening at newsrooms - and further evidence that WP jumped the gun a bit. I think it's quite possible in time, Chelsea will become the more common name, but it may be yet a bit early. We will have to see.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:00, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Why is the guidance of NPR, versus anyone else's, important? We should be taking a broad look at how various news organizations and reliable sources are dealing with it. Already, for example, I'm seeing that some of the blog posts linked by Sue imploring the world to embrace Manning's new name have gone unheeded by the publications they write for. -- tariqabjotu 15:08, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think it's a relevant discussion point considering how many editors - including you - have raised media usage as an issue - David Gerard (talk) 15:22, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- My question was why usage by NPR, as opposed to any other media source, is important. A general review of sources is fine, and probably in order, but I don't understand why NPR's is especially important. -- tariqabjotu 15:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- NPR is funded by the same US government that brought Manning before a court to serve 35 years in jail. They're probably not the source most concerned with the private's dignity and self-determination. Shrigley (talk) 15:46, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- that's a rather silly assertion - so what? Did you read what npr decided to do? They decided first to stick with Bradley, then after internal and external debate, changed their minds. But the fact NPR receives govt funding and thus is biased is ridiculous. Finally to TA's point, I don't think more choice should determine ours, nor that npr should be weighed more than cnn or nytimes, but the article itself is interesting as it shows that they flip-flopped - so this wasn't a no brainer decision.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:10, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- NPR is funded by the same US government that brought Manning before a court to serve 35 years in jail. They're probably not the source most concerned with the private's dignity and self-determination. Shrigley (talk) 15:46, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Please note that NPR's guidance is directed to their staff for writing news stories, not encyclopedia articles. Whereas Misplaced Pages's guidance is directed towards our editors and is in the policy section WP:COMMONNAME, "Misplaced Pages prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources) as such names will be the most recognizable and the most natural." It is possible that over time the name Chelsea will be the most commonly used in reliable sources. If that happens we should consider having the article's title Chelsea Manning, but for now the article title should be Bradley Manning per Misplaced Pages policy. --Bob K31416 (talk) 16:17, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- And WP:BLP. Her gender identity is female and her name is Chelsea. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:59, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Forbes, US Using feminine pronouns. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:20, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I saw on Twitter that New York Times will also start using Chelsea/female pronoums. So with that, I may switch may vote above to support of the current version as I am one of those who have insisted we should follow reliable sources per WP:Commonname. Iselilja (talk) 17:30, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Take a look at this article on Buzz feed which gives our example as a reason to admonish the New York Times ("Unfortunately, others have failed to follow suit."). We must ask ourselves how much we are creating the change you are suggesting we follow. This is not how an encyclopaedia is supposed to work. --RA (✍) 19:41, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- NPR has changed its mind. Its Managing Editor for Standards and Practice Stu Seidel has issued this guidance: "We are fond of saying that our style and language use is always open to challenge and subject to change. We also believe that a healthy newsroom is open to debate and reflection. In the past day, we have been challenged by listeners and readers and by colleagues at our member stations and in our newsroom, raising a chorus of views, including requests to rethink, backed up by arguments that make good sense. We have been persuaded. Going forward, on first reference, please use "Chelsea Manning." For the near term, we should make clear that we are talking about the person who gained public notice as "Bradley Manning." (The need for that clarification will, undoubtedly, diminish as the name Chelsea Manning becomes better known – and as Private Manning fades from routine public prominence.) On the pronoun front, the best solution is the simplest: If we're going to use a new name for a transgender person, we should change pronouns as appropriate. In this case, we should refer to Manning as a "she."" Sue Gardner (talk) 04:08, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oh whoops sorry -- just saw I am late here :-) I had been skimming, and thought this section header was referring to NPR's *original* decision to call Chelsea Manning Bradley Manning. Carry on :-) Sue Gardner (talk) 04:11, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- NPR has changed its mind. Its Managing Editor for Standards and Practice Stu Seidel has issued this guidance: "We are fond of saying that our style and language use is always open to challenge and subject to change. We also believe that a healthy newsroom is open to debate and reflection. In the past day, we have been challenged by listeners and readers and by colleagues at our member stations and in our newsroom, raising a chorus of views, including requests to rethink, backed up by arguments that make good sense. We have been persuaded. Going forward, on first reference, please use "Chelsea Manning." For the near term, we should make clear that we are talking about the person who gained public notice as "Bradley Manning." (The need for that clarification will, undoubtedly, diminish as the name Chelsea Manning becomes better known – and as Private Manning fades from routine public prominence.) On the pronoun front, the best solution is the simplest: If we're going to use a new name for a transgender person, we should change pronouns as appropriate. In this case, we should refer to Manning as a "she."" Sue Gardner (talk) 04:08, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Not clear what the problem is
I just read this article about the gender issue, as pointed out in that article, Misplaced Pages has managed to avoid problems by making the right choice at the right moment while some major news media failed to do that. Jimbo has said on his talk page that you can't always religiously follow WP:V to make this sort of editorial judgements, you always have to be prepared to WP:IAR and see if that leads to a better outcome. Count Iblis (talk) 16:15, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- The right choice at the right time is your opinion, Misplaced Pages does not make the news, it follows reliable sources. Per Misplaced Pages:What "Ignore all rules" means, how is this improving the encyclopedia? We have made waves in the media and have taken a WP:POV stance to a right now heated debate. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:22, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- The policy WP:IAR states, "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Misplaced Pages, ignore it." How does having the title Chelsea Manning instead of the title Bradley Manning improve Misplaced Pages? Thanks. --Bob K31416 (talk) 16:32, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- But equally how does reverting the article to Bradley improve wikipedia? At least calling Manning Chelsea conforms to BLP and NPOV policies, we arent here to show our disapproval or any other "feeling/belief". Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 16:39, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- If you read the move discussion above numerous times it has been said that there is nothing in WP:BLP that prevents this from being called "Bradley Manning". As for NPOV, it is also NPOV to call this Chelsea so we have two NPOV names I feel it best we go by the common name which is "Bradley" - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:44, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- But equally how does reverting the article to Bradley improve wikipedia? At least calling Manning Chelsea conforms to BLP and NPOV policies, we arent here to show our disapproval or any other "feeling/belief". Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 16:39, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
we arent here to show our disapproval or any other "feeling/belief".
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Many of the opposition remarks are about approving Manning's action, as if it is our job to approve and accept name changes. As noted by the many counterexamples across Misplaced Pages (e.g. Lily Allen, Cat Stevens, and Malcolm X), your understanding of BLP applicability here is counter to the general community's. -- tariqabjotu 17:14, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- It improves Misplaced Pages when we are respectful toward our subjects, and it diminishes the project when we are not. If you don't value dealing respectfully with our BLP subjects, you obviously won't see any benefit in us doing so. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:41, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Either choice could have been made, Bradley would always have led to more ongoing discussions about moving to Chelsea, but then one should have made some agreement making it possible to edit the page pending the outcome of these discussions leading to a possible move in the future. But once the choice for Chelsea was made, unless one seriously believes (based on what reliable sources are writing) that Manning could well reverse her decision and call himself "Bradley" again, continuing to discuss the move is unproductive. You're then arguing about the move not having done "by the book" instead of arguing about some real factual issue, something that IAR is meant to prevent. Count Iblis (talk) 16:49, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) For me, the major problem is that "Misplaced Pages" didn't make the decision - right or wrong. One editor took it upon themselves to move the article without discussion. A few reverts ensued and then one of the movers of the article to Chelsea Manning locked the article at that title (so that only administrators could move it, which we won't in order to avoid a wheel war).
- Now we must wait for 7 days for the discussion above to run its course before it will be moved back to Bradley Manning (because the initial move to Chelsea Manning had no consensus and there is no consensus to keep it there). In the mean time, the media has picked up on it and the instigator of the move to Chelsea Manning has given a newspaper interview on the matter in which they say "there's a background of transphobia to a lot of this". So, our dirty lenin gets washed in public and good faith contributors get discredited in the same breath. Wonderful.
- This, by the way, is aside to the question of referring to Manning as "Chelsea" or referring to Manning as "she" in articles, about which there looks to be broad consensus that that's appropriate (see MOS:IDENTITY). The issue only relate to the article's title (see WP:TITLES). --RA (✍) 16:56, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- You are repeating a particularly virulent myth—namely, that the article was moved without discussion. A discussion did precede the move. You may wish to argue that it didn't go on long enough to establish consensus, but please do not perpetuate the demonstrably false claim that it didn't happen at all. —Psychonaut (talk) 17:01, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- We have a move button to allow editors to move articles without necessarily seeking consensus, if you want to change that this isnt the place to do so, its a policy issue. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 17:03, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- There is currently a similar debate on the french-language wikipedia (where Manning is still known, so far, as "Bradley"). Putting aside the fact that Manning became internationally known as "Bradley", shouldn't we just wait for this person to officially change gender (legally, that is ?). I have no issue with transsexuals whatsoever, but deciding that a person has switched genders just because he has said so - and the minute he says so - seems a bit awkward to me. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 17:05, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- That is an arguemnt for changing the she/her back to he/him not one to change the name back to Bradley but really this he/she is an issue about all transgender ppl not about Manning and so should be discussed elsewhere and without reference to Manning. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 17:12, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- That is an argument for both issues, actually. I find it awkward to say that "she" did something when she was still a "he", and it seems even more awkard to do so when that person is, technically and legally, still a man. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 18:36, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Hi Jean-Jacques Georges. The trouble is, there is no rule that can be used to determine when somebody has officially switched genders. That is why so many organizations have decided to accept the person's word: that a person's gender is what they say it is. To elaborate --- here are some points at which someone's gender might be thought to be, or have been, determined: i) when a doctor "assigns" them a gender at birth; ii) when a doctor decides their gender has changed, for example due to an accident; iii) when the person determines themselves what they believe their gender to be; iv) when the person announces publicly what they believe their gender to be; v) when they begin living publicly as the gender they say they are, for example by choosing to dress in a manner consistent with how that gender typically dresses; vi) when they begin using a name consistent with their gender identity; vii) when they legally change their name to one consistent with their gender identity; viii) when they have their gender changed on one or more of the following: birth certificate, driver’s license, passport, other ID; ix) when they begin or complete hormone therapy; x) when they begin or complete laser hair removal or electrolysis; or xi) when they begin or complete surgical procedures on for example their genitals, face, Adam’s apple, chest or vocal cords. That's just a partial list of potential points at which it might be said someone has established their gender as they believe it to be. This is complicated by the fact that most transgendered people never undertake *all* these steps, and that of those undertaken, the order will vary widely depending on the person's circumstances and preferences. This is why many organizations have chosen to accept that a person's gender is what they say it is: because it's fundamentally respectful of that person, and there is no other way to make the determination that is always and obviously better. Sue Gardner (talk) 04:50, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- That is an argument for both issues, actually. I find it awkward to say that "she" did something when she was still a "he", and it seems even more awkard to do so when that person is, technically and legally, still a man. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 18:36, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I understand that, and I have no doubt that this is a rather complicated matter (in real life and in Manning's inner self). Yet I still find it unfortunate to use she in the narrative when we refer to actions that were undertaken when Manning was stil known as Bradley and was still considered as a he. Using she after his gender change (or at least wish to changer genders) became known might not be a problem, though. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 10:43, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, but this an example of the general case where you have false information that is accepted as the truth and then one finds out later that things are not as we thought they were. So, this falls in the same category as Brontosaurus, Pluto, Piltdown Man, etc. etc. Count Iblis (talk) 15:40, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, I think Count Iblis is correct. The idea is that Manning is and always was female: she was wrongly believed to have been male. (Including likely for some period by herself, due to gender assignment at birth and societal expectations.) The announcement does not mark the moment at which she decided to *become* a woman: the announcement marks the moment at which she requested that she be referred to publicly in a manner consistent with her internal gender identity. And so, it makes sense to make the pronouns "she" going all the way back. (Two disclaimers: 1) I don't know what's going on inside Manning's head any more than anyone else who's been paying attention to her story, but according to gender-related research and memoirs I've read, this is how these things are typically understood. And 2) What I wrote implies that gender identity is always fixed: that although some people may be confused about their gender, especially when young, they have a fixed internal gender regardless, that may or many not be consistent with their externally-assigned one. I don't know that that's actually true for everyone. But I do think it's what Manning is saying is true in her case.) Sue Gardner (talk) 19:27, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, but this an example of the general case where you have false information that is accepted as the truth and then one finds out later that things are not as we thought they were. So, this falls in the same category as Brontosaurus, Pluto, Piltdown Man, etc. etc. Count Iblis (talk) 15:40, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- That is an arguemnt for changing the she/her back to he/him not one to change the name back to Bradley but really this he/she is an issue about all transgender ppl not about Manning and so should be discussed elsewhere and without reference to Manning. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 17:12, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- There is currently a similar debate on the french-language wikipedia (where Manning is still known, so far, as "Bradley"). Putting aside the fact that Manning became internationally known as "Bradley", shouldn't we just wait for this person to officially change gender (legally, that is ?). I have no issue with transsexuals whatsoever, but deciding that a person has switched genders just because he has said so - and the minute he says so - seems a bit awkward to me. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 17:05, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- @SqueakBox and Psychonaut: Yes, we do have a move button. However, it is standard practice, as noted at WP:RMT, to revert moves if they are undiscussed and controversial, as this one was. For someone to continue to move the page subverts the process. -- tariqabjotu 17:14, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- We have a move button to allow editors to move articles without necessarily seeking consensus, if you want to change that this isnt the place to do so, its a policy issue. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 17:03, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- We have procedures for this. If a move is contested, it is reverted and a move discussion takes place. In this case, the move was contested but warred back to Chelsea Manning (and locked there) without a move discussion. See Misplaced Pages:Requested moves. --RA (✍) 17:13, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
but warred back to Chelsea Manning (and locked there)
And warred back even after the lock... -- tariqabjotu 17:16, 24 August 2013 (UTC)- At this point im just going with it, I was pushing this viewpoint as well as it was wrong but nobody seems willing at this point to follow through with proper procedures. Hopefully this can be avoided more in the future as it would have prevented Misplaced Pages from becoming spotlighted in the media for pushing a POV view first. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:17, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- You are repeating a particularly virulent myth—namely, that the article was moved without discussion. A discussion did precede the move. You may wish to argue that it didn't go on long enough to establish consensus, but please do not perpetuate the demonstrably false claim that it didn't happen at all. —Psychonaut (talk) 17:01, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
Get over it. I too believe that proper procedure was not followed, but to avoid wheel war and in the judgement of our neutral closer, the title should remain where it is. A few more days won't hurt. I really don't think complaining will help either, so while I'm sympathetic to the points above by RA and TA and others, it's basically water under the bridge at this point.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:41, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I have accepted the fact that I do not think that anything will be done about it but that does not mean it is right. Misplaced Pages should not be taking stands in the news on heated debates as we are supposed to be a neutral encyclopedia. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:37, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I've stated elsewhere that if I was uninvolved and had volunteered to close this discussion, I wouldn't move the article back until this RM had run it course. Further wheel warring is not what's needed. It's important that procedure be (finally) followed and the community have the fullness of their say. The quiet lesson of seeing process being followed at last is important.
- But I'm not uninvolved and I won't be closing this discussion so I'm free to take a slightly different position and emphasise a slightly different message. The approach I'm taking is to make sure that when discussion has run its course that people will leave here with one thing ringing in their ears: Next time we discuss. Next time, if you get reverted, you discuss.
- This thread pointed to the praise that Misplaced Pages has received for its decision and asked what the problem was. The problem is that Misplaced Pages didn't make the decision. Two admins took it upon themselves to decide what was best for this article. And one (going by her blog posts) is very proud for having done so.
- Taking a long term view of this article, it doesn't matter if it is at the title Chelsea Manning for a week. And I wouldn't lose any sleep if it was at that title permanently. But taking a long term view of the project (Misplaced Pages), no-one should be allowed to leave here thinking the actions of Morwen and David Gerard are examples of how we do business. --RA (✍) 21:26, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- RA, I couldn't agree more with what you're saying. I'm just pointing out that (a) it's already been said and (b) This page is not perhaps the best place to continue, as it seems like we're asking for the page to be moved back, which just isn't going to happen I'm afraid. But I agree with you on the rest - I was horrified to read that wikipedia was given kudos for being AHEAD of major news media - that is just wrong in so many ways, and could lead to citogenesis, among other problems... As a side note, though, Jimbo has some thoughtful words on this over at his talk, the jist of which is, sometimes we do need to make an editorial call, and since there will be confusion in RS for some time, we may need to IAR and keep it at Chelsea. This hasn't yet convinced me, but it's worth reading and considering his point.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:38, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- It bears repeating though. I've said long ago (at the very start of the move request, in fact) and multiple times after that that I have no expectation for the article to be moved back to Bradley Manning during the course of the move request. However, there needs to be some clarity, especially if the final decision is to keep the article at Chelsea Manning, that the actions that led to where we are now, with a move request for returning the article back to the status quo (rather than from status quo) were questionable. Unfortunately, should the article maintain its current position, Morwen and David Gerard, and many of those preferring Chelsea Manning, are no doubt going to take that as proof-positive that they did the right thing. In fact, that's quite clear already, given Morwen's congratulatory blog posts and interviews and given David's unwillingness to explain how the previous title constitutes a BLP violation. (As you'll see, David has repeatedly argued that he's explained that already, although, of course, a simple search of this talk page shows that no such explanation has ever been given.) I'm interested to see if/how the closers address this issue, especially if the article ends up at Chelsea Manning. -- tariqabjotu 21:40, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
...should the article maintain its current position, Morwen and David Gerard, and many of those preferring Chelsea Manning, are no doubt going to take that as proof-positive that they did the right thing.
That's a worrying thing for me too. Their actions needs to be addressed separately from the move request. --RA (✍) 22:20, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
Can I just make the point here that at no point have I participated in an edit war during this. A check of my contributions will reveal that my actions to consisted of
- moving it, after a brief discussion on the talk
- some copyedits to change pronouns
- noting that it had been moved back by another user and asking why
- after having received a message from that other user saying Sorry. Feel free to change back!" I did so.
- and then later, rollbacking a botched copy and paste move
That does not constitute "being warred back". Please strike that from the record. (And also incidentally, none of this was an admin action). Morwen (talk) 23:19, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think you moved too quickly and with too much excitement on a issue you should have been able to anticipate would be controversial. You got reverted and that could have been an opportunity for you to steady your pulse, but you tore in again. You should have had greater sense and your instinct should have been to instigate an RM IMO. But your action, however ill advised, was not warring. The revert clearly indicating that the move was contested and undiscussed came after your second move. Another admin reverted that.
- I've looked through the conversation above and I do not see where it is said you engaged in warring so I cannot strike any comment. --RA (✍) 00:28, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- @Rannpháirtí anaithnid: I believe she's referring to the part where you say
In this case, the move was contested but warred back to Chelsea Manning (and locked there) without a move discussion
. She probably interpreted that (as I did) as meaning the article was move-protected after it was warred back to Chelsea Manning, which would imply that Morwen -- the only person who moved the article before the protection -- was move-warring. -- tariqabjotu 07:07, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- @Rannpháirtí anaithnid: I believe she's referring to the part where you say
- Precisely. My second move came after the person who moved it back had apologised and told me it was OK to revert them. That's not an edit war. Morwen (talk) 13:30, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) That's something Morwen would have to ask David Gerard about. Cls14 reverted her through a mis-understanding and gave his blessing for her to revert back. So she didn't "war" with anyone. I think her actions were ill-advised, excited and impulsive. I don't appreciate her press correspondences that cast aspersions on contributors here that followed. I think those are things she needs to reflect upon. But I don't doubt the good faith and best intentions of Morwen's move, however ill-advised.
- I think David needs to answer questions about why he move locked the article and then undid an administrative action to place the article back at Chelsea Manning after the move was contested. He cites BLP policy but doesn't explain what section of BLP policy having the article at Bradley Manning violates. Or how it justifies wheel warring. --RA (✍) 13:37, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- User:Sue Gardner made a good explanation of one prong of the BLP concerns . I'm going to see if I can come up with something broader by the end of the WP:RM period. (I've been a bit quiet yesterday and today because of migraines, unfortunately - can you believe I was supposed to be having a quiet weekend de-stressing and putting together garden furniture? No, really.) Morwen (talk) 14:08, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think David has answered this repeatedly, on this very page, including answering you personally, and as such your repeated assertions to the contrary appear to be a prima facie case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Not liking the answer doesn't mean it didn't happen - David Gerard (talk) 14:51, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- @David Gerard: You most certainly have not; why do you think people keep asking you? As I said in response to your last IDIDNTHEARTHAT mention, it looks like you've just repeatedly invoked BLP, not stated why you felt the Bradley Manning title constituted a violation of the policy. If you believe you have already answered this point, how about you go locate where you have, then copy and paste that here? -- tariqabjotu 16:08, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think David has answered this repeatedly, on this very page, including answering you personally, and as such your repeated assertions to the contrary appear to be a prima facie case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Not liking the answer doesn't mean it didn't happen - David Gerard (talk) 14:51, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- David, I've looked through every comment you posted to this talk page, including those in the archive. You've said that you have BLP concerns with the Bradley Manning title. And you have said that you have explained what those concerns are - even "ad nauseum".
- Now, I don't want you to cause any more nausea but I cannot find one instance on this talk page where you have explained what those concerns are. Maybe your explanation got lost somewhere. Could you please post a diff to where you have explained why you believe having this article at the title Bradly Manning is a violation of BLP policy. I'd be particularly grateful if you could state the specific section of BLP policy you believe the Bradley Manning title violates. Thanks, --RA (✍) 16:22, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- This has been a repeated argument with some people here, they cite WP:BLP as the issue but when it comes to explaining why they fall short with a response. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:31, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- @Rannpháirtí anaithnid: Agree completely. -- tariqabjotu 16:08, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Because claiming the wording of MOS:IDENTITY doesn't include titles comes across as wikilawyering to avoid the spirit of WP:BLP. Because gratuitously misgendering people is gratuitously offensive, and that violates WP:BLP. That was the reasoning. But I eagerly await the next round of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, because the fundamental problem is that you don't agree, so no amount of explanation as to the reasoning will be considered comprensible or sufficient.
- (I'm beginning to see why it took Bertrand Russell a whole book to prove that 1+1=2 - David Gerard (talk) 16:35, 25 August 2013 (UTC))
Because gratuitously misgendering people is gratuitously offensive, and that violates WP:BLP.
Thanks for that explanation. I'm not going to comment on its validity at this time but — to clear up accusations of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT — could you please post a diff of when you previously posted that explanation on this talk page, as you say you have done? Thanks, --RA (✍) 17:30, 25 August 2013 (UTC)- I didn't raise that precise fractal detail before (I wouldn't think a pretty darn simple and straightforward BLP action should be expected to require an undergraduate 101-level course in transgender issues posted in the edit summary box), but it was certainly a component of the rationale, - David Gerard (talk) 21:22, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- OK. But you did previously explain why you believed having the article at Bradley Manning was a violation of BLP policy, as you say you have? Could you please post a diff to where you previously explained why you believe having this article at that title was a violation of BLP policy? Thanks, --RA (✍) 21:31, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- MOS:IDENTITY as has routinely been applied to transgender article subjects before, and yes I have, and you can dredge my edit history as well as I can. It might even still be on this page. At this stage this feels like a Gish gallop, where requests are quickly fired off that are lots of work to answer. I've answered your question, and there isn't an implicit need for me to then produce a diff saying the precise version of it you just thought of - David Gerard (talk) 21:39, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- OK. But you did previously explain why you believed having the article at Bradley Manning was a violation of BLP policy, as you say you have? Could you please post a diff to where you previously explained why you believe having this article at that title was a violation of BLP policy? Thanks, --RA (✍) 21:31, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- I didn't raise that precise fractal detail before (I wouldn't think a pretty darn simple and straightforward BLP action should be expected to require an undergraduate 101-level course in transgender issues posted in the edit summary box), but it was certainly a component of the rationale, - David Gerard (talk) 21:22, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- We have reliable sources calling this person Bradley Manning, it is not up for Misplaced Pages to take a POV stance in a heated debate as I have said before. As for the spirit of WP:BLP what you said has no merit and is more of a personal opinion. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:41, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- But we don't copy verbatim what is in the reliable sources, what we do is we read the information present in the reliable sources and the we apply our policies in order to present that information in an appropriate way. It can then happen that while the reliable sources make the editorial judgement to use "Bradley" for the name, that we end up using "Chelsea", based on the information that is in these very same sources. What is relevant for us w.r.t. what name to use is that Manning has decided to call herself "Chelsea" based on her gender identity issue that she has been dealing with. Once this is solidly established from multiple reliable sources, we have to use our own BLP policies for our own editorial decisions. Count Iblis (talk) 17:55, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Titling the article "Bradley" would itself be a POV stance. So if there is no truly NPOV solution at all, then we have to look at the other evidence to determine which solution gets the closest to NPOV.
- Firstly, gender dysphoria is medically recognized as being a real thing, with real causes and real symptoms, for which the only recognized treatment that exists is for the person to change their external presentation to match the internal identity. So whether you personally understand the phenomenon or not, NPOV requires us to accept that those things are true.
- Secondly, it is not possible to impose additional conditions on recognition of a transgender person's chosen identity and name. You will never have any way of being able to properly verify in reliable sources whether the person has met those conditions or not — you do not have a right to access her medical records to determine when she's had enough surgery to meet your standards, and you certainly do not have a right to walk up to her in person and demand to see for yourself whether she still has a penis or not. You do not have a right to access her legal records to see whether her legal name change has gone through or not. So whether you personally understand it or not, NPOV requires us to accept that simply cannot impose extra conditions for which we will never have any way of being able to properly verify whether she's met them or not.
- Finally, the reason the dreaded word "transphobia" keeps coming up on this page is that it is an inherently transphobic act to call a transgender person anything but her chosen name once she's announced that. You can believe you have a million non-transphobic reasons for doing it, but it still is a transphobic thing to do. And since WP:BLP requires us to write our articles from a perspective of respect for the subject, we simply cannot write about her from a transphobic perspective. Which means that while we obviously have to acknowledge the existence of her former name, we simply cannot give it priority over her chosen name in any way whatsoever — because doing so is an act of transphobia in and of itself.
- So for all of those reasons, the only option that satisfies NPOV, or BLP, is to use her chosen name, and that includes as the page's title. Bearcat (talk) 00:22, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Actually, you'll see that under Talk:Chelsea Manning/Archive 5#Wheel warring?, I said
BLP violations are generally exempt from policy, and although one of our interpretations (that having the article title at Bradley Manning is or is not a BLP violation) would ultimately reach consensus, I don't think either of them are unreasonable.
So, it isn't about me disagreeing with your impression that the Bradley title was a BLP violation (which, of course, I do), but rather you explaining why you felt it was one.
- (edit conflict) Actually, you'll see that under Talk:Chelsea Manning/Archive 5#Wheel warring?, I said
- Putting aside the fact that you have not communicated the point you presented here ad nauseum (and most certainly not at Talk:Chelsea Manning/Archive 5#Wheel warring?), what you just said now is obviously simply a personal opinion, not a demonstration of how BLP could be construed as vindicating you from wheel-warring. Sometimes I wonder if people actually read BLP before invoking it; contrary to popular belief, it's not "Don't put anything in biographies of living persons that the subject may not want." That this is the best explanation you can provide after having been given three days to do so speaks volumes. Of course, I'm not going to press you on this further, as it's sufficiently clear why you really performed the move, and requesting you to expound on the alleged clear violation in the Bradley Manning name is fruitless. I'll see how this is addressed, to the extent that it hasn't already been, in the closing statement. -- tariqabjotu 17:42, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- I just spent 2 hours reading BLP, and a multitude of links spawned from that page. It seems to me that those citing "BLP" violations for Manning are saying the use of "Bradley" is offensive. Be that as it may, is the use "contentious"? Even if it were, the use of "Bradley" is extremely well sourced in the media, which alleviates any "contention" issues. Furthermore, the style guideline for gender identity is a mess; While the desire to respect a subjects wishes about how they are engendered may be hunky dory, it only serves to muddy the waters when reading an article like this. The style, when used should require that the person being discussed desires to be misgendered. This is even more important for people that regender themselves after being well known.Two kinds of pork (talk) 17:47, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- The reason why I feel that WP:BLP says nothing about this case is that if we were to respect this person's desire for a name change when the media is using the other how far does it go? Where is the cutoff? Throwing a what if here but if the person was known for murdering lets say 20 children do we respect that person;s wishes if he wants to be known as a saint? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:53, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, this is covered in WP:BLP - that would be a clearly notable negative detail. But gratuitous (avoidable, easy not to do, achieves nothing to do) misgendering is a bad thing, and I knew it was a bad thing, so it behooved me to act on it from BLP concerns. Misplaced Pages gains nothing from the gratuitous misgendering and the subject loses, hence it seemed obvious - David Gerard (talk) 21:22, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- When there is a recognized and legitimate medical condition in which a person who has murdered 20 children can actually be a saint inside, for which the only treatment that even exists is for the person to live as and be recognized as a saint, then maybe that'll be a valid and useful comparison to the recognized and legitimate medical condition of gender dysphoria. Until that day arrives, however, your hypothetical child murdering saint has no bearing on or relevance to the matter at hand. Bearcat (talk) 00:22, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Like with all Slippery slopes, the answer is to be polite when the request is reasonable (e.g. naming a transperson as they wish) and not proceeding down the slope into the unreasonable (e.g. an infanticidal maniac that would rather you didn't mention their indiscretions) Chris Smowton (talk) 01:07, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- The reason why I feel that WP:BLP says nothing about this case is that if we were to respect this person's desire for a name change when the media is using the other how far does it go? Where is the cutoff? Throwing a what if here but if the person was known for murdering lets say 20 children do we respect that person;s wishes if he wants to be known as a saint? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:53, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- I just spent 2 hours reading BLP, and a multitude of links spawned from that page. It seems to me that those citing "BLP" violations for Manning are saying the use of "Bradley" is offensive. Be that as it may, is the use "contentious"? Even if it were, the use of "Bradley" is extremely well sourced in the media, which alleviates any "contention" issues. Furthermore, the style guideline for gender identity is a mess; While the desire to respect a subjects wishes about how they are engendered may be hunky dory, it only serves to muddy the waters when reading an article like this. The style, when used should require that the person being discussed desires to be misgendered. This is even more important for people that regender themselves after being well known.Two kinds of pork (talk) 17:47, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Time for formal mediation?
The discussion of the last 3 days has gone a bit over 2 000 comment edits and a 1MB long talk page, and just figuring out the different positions or established arguments for and against each position is almost impossible. Moving this to a formal mediation would put some structure into the discussion, focus the issue down to specific questions, and put a third party to lead the discussion. Belorn (talk) 16:30, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- You know, don't you, that User:BD2412, has volunteered to close the move discussion at the end of the discussion period? See User:BD2412/sandbox2 - the situation seems to be well in hand. StAnselm (talk) 21:54, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, I did not know. Out of the 2000 - 2500 edits, I only been able to go through a subset to get a general feel. Thanks for pointing out the sandbox. Belorn (talk) 22:01, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- It's right at the top of the move discussion: #Administrative notes. StAnselm (talk) 01:17, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Given that people have used the media to bring attention to this issue;and given one person warned that anyone who moved the article back (or assumedly any admin who ruled it should be moved back) would become a "minor celebrity" (and even be outed if they use a handle?), I hope that anyone volunteering to be the mediator will be aware of this issue and discourage bringing media attention to the issue for partisan reasons, whatever that partisanship might be. Thanks. User:Carolmooredc 16:40, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- It's right at the top of the move discussion: #Administrative notes. StAnselm (talk) 01:17, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, I did not know. Out of the 2000 - 2500 edits, I only been able to go through a subset to get a general feel. Thanks for pointing out the sandbox. Belorn (talk) 22:01, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
Talk:Chelsea Manning/FAQ
I have gone ahead and added the round in circles template to the top of the page, PLEASE only place questions that were answered then closed there, thank you. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:07, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I added a few, please take a look and change if you disagree. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:42, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
Suggestion about length of page
The page is getting hard to load, so how about moving all discussion about the title and pronoun, including the RM, to Talk:Chelsea Manning/Title and pronoun? SlimVirgin 17:54, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Which would be the entire page, no? Phil Sandifer (talk) 18:57, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Perhaps just the title discussion could be moved then. When the page is unprotected, there are going to be ordinary editing concerns, and the talk page is hard to load and navigate. SlimVirgin 19:17, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Aside from the title which is the central discussion here I have also noticed repeated discussions of MOS:IDENTITY and the pronouns debate, I feel that is the part that should be split off. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:23, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Edit update: Oh sorry was confused, you should take the wording Title out as it implies the move discussion, - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:24, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Some of the things here can be manually archived, I have updated the FAQ and added answers to closed discussions that have gone in circles. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:10, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Okay, sounds good. SlimVirgin 19:17, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think it's appropriate to lump discussion about the article's title together with discussion about the article's content (pronouns, etc.). I get the feeling some people are confused about the two and find them hard to separate in their minds as it is. I think Knowledgekid87's suggestion (sub-page only the pronouns discussion) - because the move discussion is a headline issue for the next 7 days and so should appear on the main talk page - is better but I'm happy to see either or both sub-paged so long as it is separately. --RA (✍) 19:35, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I agree. Let's have one sub-page devoted to pronouns, since that seems to attract a lot of attention, and move the whole move request to another sub-page. that will make things more manageable and hopefully avoid some edit conflicts, and help in grouping discussions.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:43, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
Manning and Adrian Lamo => Lamo's approach to FBI _Lamo's_approach_to_FBI_-2013-08-24T20:30:00.000Z">
| It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at Chelsea Manning. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)
This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".
The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |
Hello,
Although it has been frequently misreported that my initial contact and subsequent collaboration in the instant case was /w FBI, this is not factually correct - I believe Al Jazeera most prominently circulated this error.
My initial contact and subsequent collaboration with the investigation, formal and informal, was with the US Army. My first contact was with Army Counterintelligence and subsequently /w USACIDC.
Because this was predominantly an Army/DoD concern in the beginning, contacting FBI did not seem appropriate. FBI had representatives at many relevant meetings, but so did State Dept. and other government agencies.
In order to avoid having my history /w FBI overshadow or color the initial investigation, I requested FBI find agents who had not been involved with or proximate to my 2003/2004 case, and I initially asked them to recuse themselves until I was comfortable that this request had been honored.
Given FBI's National Security Branch's legitimate & ongoing interest in the case I did not object to their subsequent presence or subsequent involvement of other government agencies, but USACIDC remained my formal and continuing liaison /w the exception of testimony scheduling & related issues which were handled by JAG.
A suggested citation for the basic underlying facts of this clarification is http://gizmodo.com/5591905/wikileaks-critic-adrian-lamo-defends-manning-decision.
I offer this as a factual correction only, not to bolster any interagency turf kerfuffles - FBI maintained and maintains a substantial & meaningful involvement in other angles of the instant case, just not this one.
Comments in this space inconsistent /w BLP discussion guidelines will not be answered. Thank you for your understanding.
— User:Adrian/zap2.js 19:42, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- How do you suggest the text be amended? I've added an edit request template to this section because the article is currently locked. --RA (✍) 20:30, 24 August 2013 (UTC)_Lamo's_approach_to_FBI_"> _Lamo's_approach_to_FBI_">
- /s/FBI/military authorities might be the best way to put it. Also with the clarification that I did not contact the FBI, but rather asked Webster and Uber to contact Army CI & CID, respectively, on my behalf. Given the exigent circumstances, I wanted to avoid having who I was overshadow what I was reporting as much as possible; it seemed like the prudent way to accomplish that.
- I assume the FBI was subsequently contacted by somebody at the Army or DoD, in the longstanding tradition of agents & agencies everywhere of scaring up as many other people and entities as possible to share blame with when disaster strikes.
- — User:Adrian/zap2.js 21:42, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Using the Gizmodo source above, would the following be the smallest possible change that would reflect your chain of events:
--RA (✍) 22:50, 24 August 2013 (UTC)"...Lamo contacted the
FBImilitary authorities shortly after the first chat on May 21; ... Lamo met with FBI and Army investigators on May 25 in California, and showed them the chat logs..."
- Using the Gizmodo source above, would the following be the smallest possible change that would reflect your chain of events:
- Something like that would work, although it might bear clarifying that pretty much every USG agency with an interest in the matter was represented at some point or another, though the FBI was among the most frequent attendees. Thanks for giving it thought. :)
- — User:Adrian/zap2.js 01:10, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- If there are not objections to making the change above, I (or anyone else willing to do it) will go ahead and make it. Any objections? --RA (✍) 01:34, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think a better source is needed. The cited Gizmodo article is based on an interview with Adrian Lamo himself and that makes his claim self sourced which is less than ideal. Space simian (talk) 01:55, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- You can always just say "In an interview with Lamo, he stated that xxx" --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:11, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think a better source is needed. The cited Gizmodo article is based on an interview with Adrian Lamo himself and that makes his claim self sourced which is less than ideal. Space simian (talk) 01:55, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
After reading the above thread and finding a source cite to the Army Times substantiating that the initial contact was with Army Counterintelligence, I made this edit in an effort to remedy the concern. Within the constraint of the sourcing, how accurate is it now? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 01:14, 26 August 2013 (UTC)_Lamo's_approach_to_FBI_"> _Lamo's_approach_to_FBI_">
let's fight about Manning's name again!
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Please see the move discussion above, or read the FAQ there is no need to have the same discussions come up again and again. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:40, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
I get that I'm probably the last person anyone wants to hear about Manning's gender identity from, but that's the nice thing about Misplaced Pages - the last person you want to hear from is still someone you may have to hear from.
As a realpolitik-loving, pragmatic kinda person, my gut reaction to the issue of the name change was similar to that represented in many posts prior "Oh what, if someone wakes up one morning and decides to identify as (whatever), that's notable & verifiable?"
But upon a second or two of longer consideration, that's not the case here. Manning being trans has been a matter of discussion for years now (which is partially my fault - sorry ;x) so while the name change is sudden, the concept is not. Instead, the question of Manning identifying as female has been a consistent and unwavering detail throughout this entire affair. Certainly during the trial the preference was that references be made using the male pronoun, but that's a rather split hair - asking to be formally referred to as one thing doesn't imply that the identification has changed. It's more of a "Let's not make an issue of this just now" sorta thing.
So given the aforementioned, this isn't a case of sudden whimsy. It's a longstanding conviction by a notable subject who was under no obligation to express a firm preference at any prior point. Moreover, having your legal counsel read a prepared statement on national TV isn't quite an arbitrary expression of opinion - it's probably the firmest way you could say something short of skywriting or full page ads in The New York Times.
/Legally/ the name remains Bradley Manning. But all things considered, at this late date the legal name carries less weight than the preferred one, and unless Manning makes an additional change at some future point, can probably be deemed permanent. With musicians or performance artists electing a stage name (which I know isn't exactly fungible here, but bear with me) some amount of acceptance in circulation may be needed in order to acknowledge it; in this case the name has been imprinted onto the public consciousness just as fully, but by other means. Why quibble?
— User:Adrian/zap2.js 20:27, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks Adrian. Had no idea you edited here - fascinating to have an involved person providing insight. Not to quibble further, but perhaps you'd move your !vote above to the RM section, so as not to start a new discussion here? I've been trying to centralize move comments above, this page is already a mess. But your points that this isn't a sudden change, and that this was well known, are quite helpful, as I think many !voting were perhaps not aware. I also think those critiquing the timing are rather daft, since they can't possibly know (a) what it means to be TG or (b) what it means to be arrested, detained, and on trial for several years - so judging the behavior of Manning and the timing of this announcement is unfair, I think, if you haven't really walked in her shoes.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:48, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- "I get that I'm probably the last person anyone wants to hear" <-- Then why do you insist on commenting here, you haven't added anything to the discussion that wasn't already mentioned. Space simian (talk) 21:00, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
Salon.com
This piece at salon.com calls the above discussion "a key historical document of 2013". StAnselm (talk) 20:53, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- The author of that piece for Salon clearly has a very exaggerated view of the importance of this little debate here on Misplaced Pages. I would hope that people would not consider Misplaced Pages talk pages to be historical documents, as that would detract from the real importance of ACTUAL historical documents. --Yetisyny (talk) 21:50, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Threats from trolls to editors
Keeping it classy - David Gerard (talk) 21:01, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- What, purpose, exactly are you trying to serve by raising this? One person, who apparently has corresponded with Morwen before, sent Morwen a private email, which she then posted on her public blog with some editorialization. I don't see the relevance, other than to imply that those supporting the move have some malicious intent. -- tariqabjotu 21:43, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
Some people have apparently launched a campaign to harrass editors who argue that we follow Misplaced Pages policy (such as BLP) in this article and its talk page. This is indeed a very grave example of real life harrassment of an editor. I also note that some editors have resorted to filing false reports against editors who argue that we need to follow MOS:IDENTITY and BLP and who call out transphobic comments (such as trans people being like dogs), in an apparent attempt to silence them, misrepresenting and falsely attributing comments, all while this talk page contains incredible amounts of BLP violations and hate speech, such as comparisons of transgendered people to dogs or insane people. I would not be surprised if the media eventually catched up with everything that has been going on here. Josh Gorand (talk) 23:32, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- It has already been pointed out many times on this page that WP:BLP Does not apply as for the "campaign" accusing others of starting a war here is not productive. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:36, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- It has been claimed. With no apparent basis other than assertion - I really don't see how WP:BLP doesn't apply to a living bio. And it has repeatedly been found to apply to talk pages, of a living bio or not - David Gerard (talk) 00:17, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- What Knowledge, I'm sure, meant by
WP:BLP does not apply
was that neither name would violate the BLP policy. Whether that has truly been pointed out (proven) or just claimed is a matter of opinion, of course, but you certainly have done nothing to refute the suggestion. -- tariqabjotu 00:37, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- What Knowledge, I'm sure, meant by
- You haven't been topic-banned yet? -- tariqabjotu 00:37, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- No of course not, and I notice that you make yet another personal attack on an editor, thereby making it clear that it is you, if anyone, who needs to be topic banned. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:45, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- @Tariqabjotu I find it interesing that you did not learn from harassment you previously received when others were outing your real life identity, since you above appear to be negating someone simply because of a content dispute. Dissapointing. Pass a Method talk 11:46, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. -- tariqabjotu 02:46, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
For reference, a) I don't remember having heard of this character before, b) the correspondence took a much nastier turn subsequently and c) this was in the context of a very unpleasant doxxing of my userpage a few hours earlier by User:67.40.213.213. (Josh immediately reverted it, but I didn't notice it for over an hour and had to revdel and put in the oversight request myself, which also didn't help!) Morwen (talk) 13:24, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Raised as a boy
“Raised as a boy” in the section “Background” #“Early life”, is confusing. It suggests that Brad/Chelsea Manning was born a girl but raised as a boy. Is it true that Brad/Chelsea has always been physically male but self-identifies as female, as suggested by the passage “Manning has had gender identity disorder since childhood and released a statement the day after her sentencing identifying as female, taking the name Chelsea Manning....”? If Manning has always been physically male but self-identifies as female, the article should clearly say this.--Solomonfromfinland (talk) 21:55, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- short of looking at baby pictures, we're unlikely to ever know, and it's not that relevant (or, really, any of our business) There is plenty of evidence that Manning was raised as a boy, eg raised with the expectation that he act as a boy and be treated as a boy - what is less known is the extent to which Manning felt like a girl, when these feelings came on, the extent of them, etc. It seems in these cases it can be quite confusing for a child for obvious reasons, so I assume our reporting on that will have to take that into account. I don't think the 'physically a male' part is necessary or even verifiable.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:36, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- The phrase, "Raised as a boy, ...", was added as a result of this conversation, I believe. diff It's clunky, like a lot of the gender issues in the article because it was done hurriedly. Any suggestion for an improved copy?
- Regarding the sentence beginning, "Manning has had gender identity disorder since childhood", there is a related discussion above. --RA (✍) 23:13, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- From what I read (correct me if I'm mistaken) Manning was raised as a boy because he was one (i.e., physically), even tough he felt a gender disorder : if so, the sentence should be rewritten because it is indeed confusing. One would think that he was raised as a boy because his parents didn't notice that he was a girl... Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 10:31, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Can you suggest a change to the text? --RA (✍) 14:07, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- I have seen some coverage, like this which suggests Manning is physically male. However, I still find it problematic - "physically" can mean all sorts of things, but in this case it seems to be code for "has a penis". I'd like to see if there is a wording we can use that doesn't need to emphasize this.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:10, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- It's a weird sentence, saying she was small "for her age" and then describing her adult height and weight, and them randomly moving on to her saxophone playing! Might I suggest for the entire paragraph:
- I have seen some coverage, like this which suggests Manning is physically male. However, I still find it problematic - "physically" can mean all sorts of things, but in this case it seems to be code for "has a penis". I'd like to see if there is a wording we can use that doesn't need to emphasize this.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:10, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Can you suggest a change to the text? --RA (✍) 14:07, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- From what I read (correct me if I'm mistaken) Manning was raised as a boy because he was one (i.e., physically), even tough he felt a gender disorder : if so, the sentence should be rewritten because it is indeed confusing. One would think that he was raised as a boy because his parents didn't notice that he was a girl... Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 10:31, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Growing up, Manning excelled at the saxophone, science, and computers; her father told PBS that she created her first website when she was ten years old. She taught herself how to use PowerPoint, won the grand prize three years in a row at the local science fair, and in sixth grade took top prize at a state-wide quiz bowl. Manning was noticeably smaller than the average male, reaching a height of only 5 ft 2 in (1.57 m) tall and weighing 105 lb (47.6 kg) in adulthood.
- I would consider the context of the rest of the article sufficient in understanding that Manning was being raised as a boy at this point, and that she now identifies as female. U-Mos (talk) 16:05, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- But that doesn't address the problem being brought as a boy - that "raised a boy" implies Manning was actually biologically female as a child. We ought to be focused on giving the reader a clear picture of events in articles. Erasing the past of a transgendered person (and not one who completely transitioned before notability either) obfuscates the facts for readers. Readers should not get the impression from the text that Manning was genotypically and phenotypically female as a child, because that's not the case. The possibility that a bio subject might be uncomfortable with the wording in a bio is not grounds for imprecise, inaccurate wording. We put all sorts of things in articles that might distress readers. We have Muhammad even though real human beings have died in protests against such depictions. It feels like, "We have always been at war with Eastasia," to just eliminate facts the one might consider "insensitive". I would suggest this wording: "Manning was born biologically male and raised as a boy. However, Manning has said she felt female since childhood." Then stick in a citation to the Manning statement to the Today show. --JamesAM (talk) 16:29, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- I would say that "Manning was noticeably smaller than the average male" clearly implies that she was, to the outside world at least, male at this stage of her life, without going into unknown details of exactly how "physically male" she was. U-Mos (talk) 16:51, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- But that doesn't address the problem being brought as a boy - that "raised a boy" implies Manning was actually biologically female as a child. We ought to be focused on giving the reader a clear picture of events in articles. Erasing the past of a transgendered person (and not one who completely transitioned before notability either) obfuscates the facts for readers. Readers should not get the impression from the text that Manning was genotypically and phenotypically female as a child, because that's not the case. The possibility that a bio subject might be uncomfortable with the wording in a bio is not grounds for imprecise, inaccurate wording. We put all sorts of things in articles that might distress readers. We have Muhammad even though real human beings have died in protests against such depictions. It feels like, "We have always been at war with Eastasia," to just eliminate facts the one might consider "insensitive". I would suggest this wording: "Manning was born biologically male and raised as a boy. However, Manning has said she felt female since childhood." Then stick in a citation to the Manning statement to the Today show. --JamesAM (talk) 16:29, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- I would consider the context of the rest of the article sufficient in understanding that Manning was being raised as a boy at this point, and that she now identifies as female. U-Mos (talk) 16:05, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- I wonder if this should be removed. It gives the impression that height is a clue regarding gender identity which, AFAICT, is false. And it is otherwise totally trivial to the article. Formerip (talk) 00:05, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages:Gender identity made
To further complicate things an editor has gone ahead and made an essay regarding Gender identity on Misplaced Pages. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:16, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not sure it 'complicates things' particularly. Essays aren't policy, or guidelines. They are the opinions of particular contributors. We've already seen plenty of those, and one more isn't going to change anything... AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:38, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Essays tend to uncomplicate things. Instead of posting the same long argument again and again, editors can write an essay and link to it. Jehochman 01:00, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Poll to Limit the Talk Page to Edit Requests and Survey
I am someone who normally supports the open and free discussion of articles. Usually, editors are able to keep themselves composed, make the discussions relevant to the subject of the article, and are able to improve it. That notwithstanding, very little of the discussion here is on Manning. Most of the talk page discussion is 30+ users attacking each other on if they're transphobic or trolls. I'm a supporter of transsexual rights; but it's very counter intuitive for people to go as far as to accuse someone of hating transsexual people. Besides that, a lot of baiting and personal attacks have occurred as well which is especially problematic. The only threads that have not been affected by this ridiculous unprofessionalism are the main survey and edit requests. Even a thread I made to try to combat this went into that type of territory. Therefore, I want to start a poll to have the other sections not related to edit requests and the main survey archived so everyone can stop attacking each other. --Thebirdlover (talk) 06:26, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Stable Version
Now that a "stable version" of this article has been established, why has it not been reverted to that version yet? The article should be reverted to its original stable version for the remainder of the discussion. At the end of the period of discussion, then any changes discussed should be made. Leaving the article in it's current "non-stable" state is absurd. This article is laughable in both title and it's misuse of pronouns. Articles like these are why teachers tell their students not to use Misplaced Pages for research, and tarnish Misplaced Pages's image overall. IFreedom1212 (talk) 06:39, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, we're NOT supposed to be the source. There's a reason why everything needs to be referenced... And as the page is being considered for requested move, it's probably not a good idea either (on top of the fact that the page is under full-protection) - Penwhale | 08:25, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oh good, another "this is a disgrace to Misplaced Pages" because it's the wrong version and POV complaint from a recently blocked user who edit-warred on this very article. Your request makes no sense because the discussed changes above unambiguously conflict. Also, you know who else advises that people don't use Misplaced Pages for research? We do. I, JethroBT 08:37, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
There is no disgrace to Misplaced Pages if we have a civil discussion about an editorial issue. Just be patient and it will get resolved. The disgrace starts when people get rude or start warring. Jehochman 14:39, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Personal pronouns, and manning
I think this talk page will be of interest to future scholars of issues relating to Personal pronouns. Future edits to this article should take into account that Manning has opened a can worms with respect military and industrial manning with transgender personnel SEPARATE from the T of LGBT (or gay or glum.) —Pawyilee (talk) 10:14, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Reconsideration of GID → Gender Dysphoria change
It was previously decided to keep the term "gender identity disorder" in this article, rather than replacing it with the newer term "gender dysphoria". This decision was made on the basis that the article title has not yet been changed. I believe this should be reconsidered. The main argument against changing the article title is that the ICD-10 still uses the term "gender identity disorder". Such an argument may apply to the general case of an article about a condition that can be experienced by anyone in the world (though I disagree with it), but Manning is an American who will be evaluated by American psychologists. In the US, the DSM is much more widely used for psychological conditions than the ICD. Therefore, the DSM terminology ought be used. MaxHarmony (talk) 11:40, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Has Manning been diagnosed with a disorder or dysphoria? Rather that us diagnosing, what do reliable source say? --RA (✍) 14:00, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- If you read the court transcripts, at least the one I read had a psychologist using both dysphoria and GID. Much of the media coverage has used GID. I believe the Dr. in the transcripts did say something like "We now call this GD", but I haven't read *all* the transcripts and all the diagnoses. I'm sure Manning has been assessed multiple times by multiple doctors, so it wouldn't surprise me if some wrote "GID" and some wrote "GD" in the record.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:06, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- When it comes to medical terms such as this I think it makes the most sense to follow the most recent consensus from the relevant professional community which happens to be gender dysphoria. If scientist decide there is only eight planets in the solar system we should write that as well (as long as there was a scientific consensus) even if a few popular media organisations keep claiming there are nine. Space simian (talk) 18:35, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Edit requests, minor
If I understand the sentence correctly, it should be "when the second wife's son from a previous relationship" instead of "when the second wife's son by a previous relationship", right? (emphases by me)
À propos "relationship": "Manning told Lamo in May 2010 that she had developed a relationship with Assange" – to me, that sounds ambiguous (and therefore confuses the reader) and should be either added to ("working relationship"?) or reworded.
There are many other small things that need fixing or tweaking (and I'm not even referring to the can of worms that is the pronouns debacle), so when is this article going to get unlocked again? – ὁ οἶστρος (talk) 14:43, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Done by someone. Space simian (talk) 03:52, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Styling issue: quote marks in blockquote
Please undo this good-faith edit; per its documentation, and HTML standards, {{blockquote}} does not take quote marks. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:08, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Done by someone. Space simian (talk) 03:44, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Encyclopedic Content
I am somewhat confused as to the reason behind referring to Bradley/Chelsea Manning as she. Manning is still a male as is defined by existing sources, including Misplaced Pages's own articles, such as Male and Man. Physically, Manning is still producing sperm and has male genitalia. The pronoun he is known to refer to males and referring to Manning as discredits the encyclopedia nature of Misplaced Pages in an effort to be politically correct. WP:IAR instructs us to ignore all rules in an effort to improve Misplaced Pages; if that is taken into account, MOS:IDENTITY does not necessarily apply. Misplaced Pages is first and foremost an encyclopedia. It should be based on fact primarily, before political correctness. In my mind, the discussion on this page has gone into the weeds. Scientifically, Manning is male. When Manning does undergo a physical change, it would then be prudent to change the pronoun usage; until then, it seems that we are pandering to the will of a criminal and public opinion instead of writing fact-based articles. -- Steven Williamson (HiB2Bornot2B) - talk ▓▒░ Go Big Blue! ░▒▓ 17:18, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- There is an entire Talk Page worth of comments (above) arguing the opposite point. Liz 00:02, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- It is nice to know I am not alone in saying that Misplaced Pages should not be taking a WP:POV stance here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:23, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Especially since WP:NPOV is one of the three core policies, which gives it more weight than the Manual of Style. -- Steven Williamson (HiB2Bornot2B) - talk ▓▒░ Go Big Blue! ░▒▓ 18:09, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- So basically you want to ignore all rules to promote your opinion that Manning is male. How does that help the encyclopedia? Sounds a recipe for seriously damaging wikipedia to me. Calling Manning him or naming the article Bradley is what is a POV violation, putting the views of certain wikipedia editors first, even to the extreme of ignoring all rules to do so. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talkcontribs 18:33, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Reading the comment above, it had a somewhat rude tone to it, but I'm sure I misread it. I'm not talking about my opinion here... I'm simply stating that the scientific definition of male is that it is the gender of a species that produces sperm. I am just confused as to why we would ignore definitions of terms to facilitate someone's self identification, when it comes at the price of fact-based information. As far as his name, we can call him whatever he would like to be called, but for now, no matter how you spin it, he still has male parts and is by definition a man. -- Steven Williamson (HiB2Bornot2B) - talk ▓▒░ Go Big Blue! ░▒▓ 04:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- So basically you want to ignore all rules to promote your opinion that Manning is male. How does that help the encyclopedia? Sounds a recipe for seriously damaging wikipedia to me. Calling Manning him or naming the article Bradley is what is a POV violation, putting the views of certain wikipedia editors first, even to the extreme of ignoring all rules to do so. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talkcontribs 18:33, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Hi Steven. It is common practice to refer to a transgendered woman (which Manning is now revealed to be) using their pronouns of choice, in this case, "she". This is irregardless of any physical attributes, hormones, surgery, etc, as the pronouns refer to the gender identity of the person, not their biological sex. Sue Gardner posted a very nice summary of this yesterday to this page, you can check the logs and read it above.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:05, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Especially since WP:NPOV is one of the three core policies, which gives it more weight than the Manual of Style. -- Steven Williamson (HiB2Bornot2B) - talk ▓▒░ Go Big Blue! ░▒▓ 18:09, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Steven, as someone else said, our society has come to the conclusion that gender has varying levels of identification. We can say that someone is physically male while also saying that they emotionally and mentally identify as a woman. It does not harm Misplaced Pages to use the subject's preferred identification in our reference of them. Especially in an article like there where her change is well documented because it will be written into the article. Resisting her is the real POV pushing only because there is little harm to the subject by using her identified gender and more harm emotionally by not using it. The real question is what proper name to use for the time being. Various arguments have ranged from similar to yours, to use her legal name, and use the name used by sources currently the most. That's what the above RFC seeks to solve.--v/r - TP 19:19, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is statement is incorrect and extremely weak, for two reasons. One, "our society" invokes an ambiguous concept; exactly which society is being referred to is undefined. Moreover, it is my understanding that Misplaced Pages is supposed to respresent a global perspective, not the perspective of any one society. There can be no doubt that the vast majority of people around the world (of whom Western people only make up 1/8 at best) have not "come to the conclusion that gender ..." Two, American society itself has not accepted on a widespread basis, by any measure. The mere fact that debate exists shows that this statement is incorrect. If you can refute this, do so, although the possibility of being successful is highly unlikely. GrimmC (talk) 20:42, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with this. The Arab world outsizes and outnumbers the western world, and they definitely do not share this view on transgenderism. Whose "society" is Misplaced Pages supposed to represent? --benlisquareT•C•E 08:26, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Completely wrong. As of 2008, Iran carries out more sex change operations than any other nation in the world except for Thailand. It is the West who are traditionally more censorious of people's gender than Asia or the Middle East. You might be confusing gender identity with sexual identity. 7daysahead (talk) 10:24, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Actually, Iran is not part of the Arab world... StAnselm (talk) 10:57, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Completely wrong. As of 2008, Iran carries out more sex change operations than any other nation in the world except for Thailand. It is the West who are traditionally more censorious of people's gender than Asia or the Middle East. You might be confusing gender identity with sexual identity. 7daysahead (talk) 10:24, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with this. The Arab world outsizes and outnumbers the western world, and they definitely do not share this view on transgenderism. Whose "society" is Misplaced Pages supposed to represent? --benlisquareT•C•E 08:26, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is statement is incorrect and extremely weak, for two reasons. One, "our society" invokes an ambiguous concept; exactly which society is being referred to is undefined. Moreover, it is my understanding that Misplaced Pages is supposed to respresent a global perspective, not the perspective of any one society. There can be no doubt that the vast majority of people around the world (of whom Western people only make up 1/8 at best) have not "come to the conclusion that gender ..." Two, American society itself has not accepted on a widespread basis, by any measure. The mere fact that debate exists shows that this statement is incorrect. If you can refute this, do so, although the possibility of being successful is highly unlikely. GrimmC (talk) 20:42, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- The view that Manning is a criminal who deserves his punishment rather than a hero who committed illegal acts for the greater good is POV. Misplaced Pages is and ought to be neutral with regard to that contentious issue. MOS:IDENTITY is the policy regarding gender identities of transgender people in Misplaced Pages articles and was arrived at after much deliberation and debate. You offer no compelling reason to reject it, other than arguing in favor of using biological gender instead of gender identity, which is the exact opposite of Misplaced Pages's current policy. If you wish to change MOS:IDENTITY, you can petition to change that policy. WP:IAR may tell you to ignore all rules when trying to "improve" Misplaced Pages, but one person's idea of "improving" things is another person's idea of "ruining" things. WP:IAR only applies to things that are non-controversial, and this is DEFINITELY controversial. --Yetisyny (talk) 21:15, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure he committed a crime. By that alone, he is a criminal. I just believe we as editors on what I feel is a very worthwhile endeavor should remember to be encyclopedic in nature. By that, I believe we should hold true to what terms mean. I understand your point; I respectfully dissent, but I offer my thanks. -- Steven Williamson (HiB2Bornot2B) - talk ▓▒░ Go Big Blue! ░▒▓ 04:16, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- How many times do people have to say it, MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline, not policy The first sentence of it says to refer to policies. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:54, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Guidelines are part of the Misplaced Pages rulebook, and do still have to be followed and respected unless there's a compelling reason to make an exception. Can you come up with a reason nobody's heard before as to why this situation might be different from other MOS:IDENTITY matters that have come up in the past? (I'm willing to bet you can't, just for the record.) Bearcat (talk) 00:34, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Referring to her by male pronouns instead of female ones is itself a POV stance. So the only strictly NPOV way to handle it is to respect the individual's right to define themselves, and to accept the fact that whether you understand it or not, gender dysphoria is a real, recognized medical phenomenon with real, recognized symptoms and a real, recognized etiology, whose only known cure is for the person to adopt the new gender identity. Bearcat (talk) 21:48, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- You're exaggerating a bit here Bearcat. I believe in some cases, gender dysphoria can be managed through altered presentation, not a complete switch to a new gender identity, There is a spectrum of dysphoria and of workable solutions to it.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:50, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- There's less difference between "adopt the new gender identity" and "altered presentation" than you seem to think there is. Altering one's gender presentation is a form of adopting the new gender identity; I didn't imply that full surgery was the only option. Bearcat (talk) 01:57, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- You're exaggerating a bit here Bearcat. I believe in some cases, gender dysphoria can be managed through altered presentation, not a complete switch to a new gender identity, There is a spectrum of dysphoria and of workable solutions to it.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:50, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Dates
RfC asking which date format people prefer will be posted after move discussion closes) Space simian (talk) 04:26, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Why are the dates still being listed in British format as opposed to American format? Is there some valid reason for doing so? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 23:46, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not totally up-to-speed, but maybe Manning has identified as British.
- This is a joke, by the way. Formerip (talk) 00:08, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Joseph, the dates are currently in DMY format (which is international, not only British); someone changed some of them to MDY recently, but left most of them, so I changed them back to make the article consistent. Once the move request is closed and the talk page is quieter, I will post an RfC asking which date format people prefer. Discussion here. SlimVirgin 01:56, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks. This is a story that generates from, and concerns, the United States. Therefore, I thought that the MOS dictates that the American format be used. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:29, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Edit Request: MOS:IDENTITY note on Talk page be removed
The MOS:IDENTITY note has been removed, to avoid confusion pending the completion of this discussion. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:44, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The MOS:IDENTITY note near the top of this talk page expresses a clear bias as its application to this article is obviously a matter of opinion. I request that it be removed until discussion regarding the page move/pronoun usage has ended. IFreedom1212 (talk) 01:46, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- MOS:IDENTITY is policy, and its application to this page is indisputable. An element of the move discussion is the question of whether this policy favors (or requires) a change to the title of the article. I see no evidence that the existence of this tag has had any influence on the opinions expressed in this discussion, and therefore see no reason to change the status quo. bd2412 T 01:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- The applicability of MOS:IDENTITY is the entire reason there is a dispute though. Or am I missing something... IFreedom1212 (talk) 02:11, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with Freedom, right now it is being discussed if or if not MOS:IDENTITY applies, throwing a notice at the top and saying it does is not going to be helpful. I have no objections to it being restored though once the move discussion is closed pending the move outcome. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:06, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Non-application would also be a biased matter of opinion. So where does that leave us? With the indisputable fact that gender dysphoria really is a real thing for objectively real whether you like it or not, that's where. Bearcat (talk) 02:04, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well I'm not suggesting that we put a note that says it does not apply. So just removing the note would be the neutral solution. GD is obviously disputable. I'm disputing your alleged 'fact' that Bradley Manning is suffering from anything other than being a traitor. IFreedom1212 (talk) 02:11, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Your POV with regards to gender dysphoria is a fringe theory that has been widely rejected by medical science. So no, GD is not "obviously disputable." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:17, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Let it be, everyone has their own opinions, lets focus on on other things rather than worry about this right now. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- "Everyone has their own opinions" - and yet only relevant, well-supported opinions are included in Misplaced Pages articles. The claim that gender dysphoria is not real is not a relevant, well-supported opinion. It is a fringe theory rejected by reliable medical sources. Good day, sir. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:28, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Everybody has their own opinions, true; however, not everybody is entitled to equal respect for their opinions. Thinking that you know better than documented medical science, for example, does not make your opinions on those issues worthy of any serious consideration. Bearcat (talk) 02:38, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Let it be, everyone has their own opinions, lets focus on on other things rather than worry about this right now. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- You're certainly entitled to your opinion that gender dysphoria is disputable. But until medical science agrees with you, you're not entitled to expect Misplaced Pages to favour your POV over the documented facts. Bearcat (talk) 02:31, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Your POV with regards to gender dysphoria is a fringe theory that has been widely rejected by medical science. So no, GD is not "obviously disputable." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:17, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well I'm not suggesting that we put a note that says it does not apply. So just removing the note would be the neutral solution. GD is obviously disputable. I'm disputing your alleged 'fact' that Bradley Manning is suffering from anything other than being a traitor. IFreedom1212 (talk) 02:11, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I concur. This template is at the top of dozens of talk pages. We have oodles of reliable sources which refer to Manning as a transgender woman now, that is really not under dispute, and past consensus has determined which pronouns should be used in that case (note that it's entirely possible to be both a transgender woman, and "biologically" male.) In addition, normally "local" consensus cannot override broader community consensus, unless there is a good reason to IAR. If you have issues with the pronouns, my suggestion would be to join the discussion at MOS:IDENTITY. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:07, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I have restored the template. The fact that Manning is a self-identified transgender woman is not a matter of opinion. Whether MOS:IDENTITY should be controlling as to the title of the article is a matter of debate, but that does not implicate the template as "biased." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:10, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- leave it off I've changed my mind. This template is causing too much consternation. Let's leave it off pending the move request. It's been on and off, so I'd rather not debate this further. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:13, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
This notice has been out of place almost the entire move discussion thus far, why now are people making a huge deal about it and where is the consensus for it's inclusion, doesn't this come first if something wants to be added? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:15, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I have removed it, as the entire crux of this debate is the conflict of a Manual of SAtyle guideline vs. a policy on Article Names. To have one "side", as it were, appear at the top as some warning that it "must" be adhered to is unfair and damaging to the open debate we're having here. Tarc (talk) 02:26, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Update: Well, I thought I had, but it seems others did and edit conflicts and all that. NorthBySouthBaranof in particular, you really need to get ahold of your reverting, as when you try to restore the tag (wrongly, IMO), you are also blowing away comments in another topic. MediaWIki isn't really all that robust when it comes to handling edit conflict,s so take extra care on high-traffic pages that what you're editing is what you mean to. Tarc (talk) 02:33, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
NOT a Good Article
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Not done Question answered, the consensus is to wait until a later date for a reassessment. Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:49, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Can we remove the "Good Article" tag at the top? There are clearly a large number of people that have multiple issues with the article. There is clearly a large amount of debate over what should(n't) be included, what should(n't) be removed, and what is(n't) factually (in)correct. It's clearly not a good article yet. --Lacarids (talk) 02:27, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- For reference, a recent discussion: Misplaced Pages:Good article reassessment/Chelsea Manning/1. Paul Erik 02:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Question
What do we do in other cases where a biographic topic announces a Name change? E.g. Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali, Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam, Prince/Symbol/formerly known as, Sean Combs/Puff Daddy/P. Diddy. Is a transgender name change different from other types of name change? If so why?User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:31, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Some here have argued, more or less, exactly that - as soon as a TG person announces a new name, we should rename the article (I disagree). In other cases, like Cat Stevens, etc, I believe it is usually commonname and other WP:AT considerations that apply. You can read the Cat Stevens talk page, to see the arguments made there - there are regular move requests, but they don't succeed. There was a discussion to change the article titling policy with a special exception for TG people, but I've just temporarily closed that discussion by request until this move request happens. This will be precedent-setting I believe, so whether an exception will be made for trans-people in the future to our regular article titling policies (based on BLP/MOS:IDENTITY concerns) is really the matter of debate above.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:41, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think it would be a mistake to let the above discussion set a precedence since it wasn't handled correctly by the involved admins and consequently a lot of the discussion and !votes has focused on that, not on policy with regard to transgender persons. Space simian (talk) 02:50, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Not to mention that some comments are obviously motivated by strong feelings about Manning, so basing a general policy on how to treat transgender blp titles on this discussion isn't a good idea. Space simian (talk) 04:21, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think it would be a mistake to let the above discussion set a precedence since it wasn't handled correctly by the involved admins and consequently a lot of the discussion and !votes has focused on that, not on policy with regard to transgender persons. Space simian (talk) 02:50, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I believe the main difference is that the use of a previous name associated with the wrong gender can be perceived as offensive in the latter case. Space simian (talk) 02:50, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Fundamentally, each case does have to be evaluated on its own merits. Cassius Clay → Muhammad Ali, for instance, took place long before Misplaced Pages ever existed, so by the time we had an opportunity to write an article about him at all he was already far better known as Muhammad Ali and that was therefore the title of choice. Prince also changed to the symbol before we existed, and then changed back to Prince before we ever actually had to worry about how to handle that can of worms either. Diddy, on the other hand, has his article at Sean Combs, since he's known well enough by that name that we can safely avoid the problem of his ever-shifting stage names entirely. Metta World Peace was moved to his current name soon after his name change. At Cat Stevens, however, the issue that ultimately carried the day is that he has almost no public profile whatsoever under his current name. We've also had notable women whose articles got moved right away following the name change that accompanied their marriage or divorce, and other notable women whose articles didn't. But the thing is that each case is different, raising its own issues and its own considerations, and therefore there isn't and can't be a single blanket rule that applies consistently to all possible name changes.
- Normally when it comes to a transgender person, however, we have always moved the article as soon as possible. See Chaz Bono and Laura Jane Grace for two other examples where this has come up in the past. (We did admittedly wait for some added sources on Grace, but the decidiing issue in that instance ended up being that there was initially some ambiguity about whether "Grace" was her last name or a second middle name which was still followed by "Gabel". The article still did get moved as soon as we could clarify that properly, and there was never any consensus to accept the position that having been previously better known as "Tom Gabel" meant we should keep her article there any longer than we absolutely had to. Bono, on the other hand, got moved right away — it sparked the same crapstorm we're seeing here, admittedly, but that didn't result in any consensus to overturn.) The core issue is that when it comes to a transgender person, it is fundamentally disrespectful and offensive and transphobic to use anything other than their chosen name — and WP:NPOV forbids us from being any of those things. So in the case of a transgender person, our practice and precedent has always been to move the article right away (or as soon as feasibly possible if there was a quality-of-sourcing reason to hold off), but in different situations there can be different practices. Bearcat (talk) 04:22, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with what Bearcat says. The issues that I see with this article that is dividing everyone:
- The subject satisfies notability condition prior to the publicizing of the subject's wish;
- The subject's wish, if carried out, may cause confusion among the readers;
- Additionally, the location of confinement does not lend itself to support the subject's preferred gender;
- The subject's wish indicated that all correspondence to the location of confinement should use the original (and the current legal) name.
- Because Misplaced Pages isn't a crystal ball, we cannot tell what will happen to Private Manning. We cannot tell whether Private Manning will remain newsworthy after the appeals, etc, are exhausted. Private Manning is definitely more notable prior to the gender/name change announcement. Of course, it's possible for an article to be written completely without gender-based pronouns (it is hard!), but I have mentioned above: There may be confusions among readers. (I'd imagine there's already confusion amongst the readers!). Whether the fact that the Military will not acknowledge Private Manning's preferred name (even after being discharged) matters remains to be seen. I will try not to rehash the discussions in sections above, but following Bearcat's examples, I'd imagine that it wouldn't be a reach to say, "Private Manning fulfilled WP:N prior to the announcement" → "Article should remain at legal name, but with contents written to satisfy MOS and other guidelines". I think this would be a compromise, but unfortunately, I personally don't think many people would take my position. - Penwhale | 08:16, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I have come here from the AT talk page. The issue of name changes both for individuals, groups and organisations has been discussed in detail many times on the AT talk page as will be seen if a search is done on Muhammad Ali on those archives. This position is simple. Misplaced Pages should give more weight to third party reliable sources after the subject of the article announces a name change. This is covered by a sentence in the WP:AT policy in the section "Use commonly recognizable names" (WP:COMMONNAME) "If the name of a person, group, object, or other article topic changes, then more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change". This wording also covers the instance were and individual or organisation changes name but it is ignored or an alternative is used in third party reliable sources. Eg The artist formerly known as Prince" was far more common than the symbol that he used. Using this formula of recently published reliable sources, fits in neatly with rest of COMMONNAME which does not follow official names but it does allow for flexibility needed to follow the principles of COMMNNAME when a name change takes place. -- PBS (talk) 08:25, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Edit Request: remove the interpreted self-diagnosis of gender-whatever
| This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The article currently reads: "Manning was raised as a boy, but stated that she had suffered from gender identity disorder since childhood." Where citation 3 is Manning's recent statement claiming to be 'Chelsea.' While gender disorders may have some medical literature to validate them, there is nothing that objectively validates a diagnosis that Manning has had gender identity disorder since childhood. This is for two reasons:
- One, Manning cannot diagnose himself. He is not a doctor or a healthcare professional. His statement was subjective and not objective. Misplaced Pages should not present his alleged gender identity disorder as an objective fact.
- Two, Manning did not specify any one particular disorder. He said he has felt this way since childhood. Therefore it is only through editorial assumption that Manning has had gender identity disorder since childhood.
- Three, his statement was vague. "Given the way that I feel, and have felt since childhood, I want to begin hormone therapy as soon as possible." 'The way I feel' is not the explicit declaration of "I have had gender identity disorder since I was a little girl/boy."
Unless a reliable source can be presented that objectively verifies this claim (such as a diagnosis from his childhood by a psychiatrist,) this statement should be removed. IFreedom1212 (talk) 03:09, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, it doesn't work that way. It is verifiable that Manning has made the statement, which has been published in reliable sources. It is, therefore, perfectly acceptable and normal for Misplaced Pages to republish that assertion. You have no evidence to suggest that Manning's statement was not based upon diagnoses by medical professionals. For you to impute that it isn't is nothing more than unsourced speculation. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:15, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, but to be more accurate, perhaps the sentence should be "Manning was raised as a boy, but stated that she felt and exhibited symptoms of gender identity disorder since childhood." (change in italics). Otherwise, I agree with NorthBySouthBaranof. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:17, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Agreed, that's a good way of putting it, and I have made that change. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:22, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- But to say that Manning 'felt like he had gender identity disorder' would be a speculation beyond the words in his statement. He was not that explicit in his statement therefore Misplaced Pages should not be so explicit as to finger out a particular disorder either. IFreedom1212 (talk) 03:26, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- It's an acceptable editorial paraphrase of the meaning of her statements. There are also reliable sources reporting that Manning has been diagnosed with gender identity disorder. See, for example, [LiveScience, NYTimes, etc. Her self-identification of understanding past symptoms is not subject to debate unless you have access to medical records which disprove them.
- These had not been cited before. The wording is more appropriate now that there are verifiable citations to support the statement. IFreedom1212 (talk) 04:31, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- If a child is diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 12, that doesn't mean that child didn't exhibit symptoms of ADHD at the age of 8, or didn't have ADHD at the age of 8. It just means that disorder went undiagnosed. It is Manning's contention that she has suffered from the symptoms of GID since childhood. You literally have no way of disproving that contention. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:39, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- It's an acceptable editorial paraphrase of the meaning of her statements. There are also reliable sources reporting that Manning has been diagnosed with gender identity disorder. See, for example, [LiveScience, NYTimes, etc. Her self-identification of understanding past symptoms is not subject to debate unless you have access to medical records which disprove them.
- Yes, but to be more accurate, perhaps the sentence should be "Manning was raised as a boy, but stated that she felt and exhibited symptoms of gender identity disorder since childhood." (change in italics). Otherwise, I agree with NorthBySouthBaranof. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:17, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- That she was suffering from gender identity disorder is not a new thing; it had been discussed many times before, including by Manning with a counsellor several years ago, the army, and Adrian Lamo. See her chat with Lamo: "im an army intelligence analyst, deployed to eastern baghdad, pending discharge for 'adjustment disorder' in lieu of 'gender identity disorder'. SlimVirgin 03:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Also, please read MOS:IDENTITY and use the appropriate pronouns. This is not the first time you have been asked to do this. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:21, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- No. There is plenty of discussion on why male pronouns should be used. Also, PVT Manning and I are both still members of the service and are bound by military regulations regarding how to address soldiers. AR600-20 AR600-8-104 AR600-8-14 etc. I also just disagree on a fundamental level. IFreedom1212 (talk) 03:53, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- She was discharged. Does military code require you still address dishonorably discharged people in that manner? EvergreenFir (talk) 04:23, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is not the military, IFreedom1212. This is an article on Misplaced Pages, where you are expected to conform yourself in accordance with Misplaced Pages's policies, customs, and norms. Plenty of editors here are long-serving military, including myself. How about you check your indignation at the door and follow the rules? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 04:08, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I used that ARs as a reference to show that clearly there are different stances on how he should be addressed. The misconstrued application of wikipedia guidelines is not enough to convince me that Bradley Manning is a "she." And I'm not going to call him a 'her' just to make a convicted felon feel good about himself. IFreedom1212 (talk) 04:29, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is not the military, IFreedom1212. This is an article on Misplaced Pages, where you are expected to conform yourself in accordance with Misplaced Pages's policies, customs, and norms. Plenty of editors here are long-serving military, including myself. How about you check your indignation at the door and follow the rules? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 04:08, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Then use "Pvt. Manning". Feel free to point me to the discussion on why we should call Manning "he", but the Misplaced Pages standard (as well as the standard in most professional and journalistic organizations) is to use the pronoun the person requests. To not use it is insulting at a minimum. EvergreenFir (talk) 04:00, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Talk:Chelsea_Manning#MOS:IDENTITY Not to mention, calling him Bradley goes hand in hand with using male pronouns. IFreedom1212 (talk) 04:08, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Which is why the page does not call her "Bradley". MOS:IDENTITY is pretty clear about this: "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman"), pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life. Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions." You do not need a legal name change or surgical procedures to be called by your desired pronoun and name. EvergreenFir (talk) 04:12, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- There's clearly a large disagreement about this. I'm not going to start calling him a "she" just because you want me to. When a consensus on the matter is reached and a decision is made then there will be a clearer answer here. IFreedom1212 (talk) 04:29, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- You're free to do so if you wish — but you do not get to claim freedom from the possible consequences of that decision, such as the potential of being temporarily or permanently editblocked if you cross the line into uncivil, attacking or disruptive behaviour. Just be aware that there is thin ice on the lake that you're skating on — you're not right on it yet, but you're not as far away from it as you might like to think you are either. So I'd advise caution. Bearcat (talk) 04:38, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, the disagreement here is about the article title. Even if the article is moved back to the title of "Bradley Manning," Misplaced Pages will still refer to her as female. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:40, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well hell, then how do I go about formally suggesting that the page be reverted to the correct male pronouns? If the page is reverted to Bradley then that would only make sense. I thought that discussion was already ongoing but if it's not then I'd be obliged if we could begin that conversation. IFreedom1212 (talk) 04:45, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- 50 feet closer to that thin ice. Bearcat (talk) 04:53, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Is this seriously going to be discussed again? You've edit warred and been blocked over this matter already and it's time to stop beating the pronoun horse. I, JethroBT 05:02, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well hell, then how do I go about formally suggesting that the page be reverted to the correct male pronouns? If the page is reverted to Bradley then that would only make sense. I thought that discussion was already ongoing but if it's not then I'd be obliged if we could begin that conversation. IFreedom1212 (talk) 04:45, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- There's clearly a large disagreement about this. I'm not going to start calling him a "she" just because you want me to. When a consensus on the matter is reached and a decision is made then there will be a clearer answer here. IFreedom1212 (talk) 04:29, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Which is why the page does not call her "Bradley". MOS:IDENTITY is pretty clear about this: "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman"), pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life. Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions." You do not need a legal name change or surgical procedures to be called by your desired pronoun and name. EvergreenFir (talk) 04:12, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- She was discharged. Does military code require you still address dishonorably discharged people in that manner? EvergreenFir (talk) 04:23, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- No. There is plenty of discussion on why male pronouns should be used. Also, PVT Manning and I are both still members of the service and are bound by military regulations regarding how to address soldiers. AR600-20 AR600-8-104 AR600-8-14 etc. I also just disagree on a fundamental level. IFreedom1212 (talk) 03:53, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages is not in the business of second-guessing or factchecking people's statements about themselves, and has no way of being able to access Manning's private medical records anyway. So her own statements about herself are the only possible source that even exists for us to use — and as SlimVirgin pointed out, this is not even new information about her; it's been fairly well known for a few years already that she has been in treatment for this, and therefore she almost certainly does have a proper medical diagnosis to back her up. Accordingly, her statements have to be taken at face value until such time as a reliable source actually publishes information to the contrary (which is unlikely to ever happen, frankly.) EvergreenFir's wording change was a wise one, but the information itself is simply not up for debate unless and until you can somehow prove that it's false, not vice versa. Bearcat (talk) 03:29, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- As I support using "he" in historical description of her military service, I support saying "Private Manning" in those descriptions as well. If "former Private Manning" is appropriate by military standards now, that would be acceptable for the overall description of her now. Wnt (talk) 08:26, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Great Work!
I just want to say you're all doing great work. (I've done very little here, but am proud to be among you.) Keep up the great work!Shemp Howard, Jr. (talk) 06:16, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, we will all be looking pretty stupid when this closes if the page is moved back to Bradley, since by now it is becoming clear RS is moving towards using Chelsea. So WP first prematurely switches to CM then after 7 days switches back to BM locking the page with that title for a period when it finaly has become clear it should be moved to CM. *sighs* Space simian (talk) 06:38, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, I'd like to see some evidence of the RS shift. What makes you say this? StAnselm (talk) 06:56, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, that is my impression after looking around for a while. Besides NBC, Huff Post, the Daily Mail, MSNBC and Slate mentioned earlier it looks like the New York Times, the Telegraph and the Guardian (among others) are beginning to use Chelsea. The Christian Science Monitor has a writeup on the subject:
"For now, at least, and until instructed otherwise by my editors, I’ll do what that source of all undergraduate wisdom – Misplaced Pages – has done: Refer to Manning as female."
(and if it is any indication, in my local (Scandinavian) duckpond all major news organizations have declared they will use Chelsea). Since it is the decent thing to do it is easy to predict more will follow, no? Space simian (talk) 10:07, 26 August 2013 (UTC)- See, this is the problem. People are making the switch "because Misplaced Pages does so". Misplaced Pages should never be the first to spearhead a movement. This whole thing originally began as an admin powertripping problem, and the move was done without proper consensus-gathering, however the masses don't know that. All they know is that the All Mighty Misplaced Pages has made the switch, and therefore it's the correct thing to do. That very quote that you have posted confirms my suspicions. --benlisquareT•C•E 11:52, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- (ec) I smell a feedback loop. If we change back, then maybe some of the news sources will as well. I think we can strike CSM for this reason. And once again, this is the problem with the initial move - Misplaced Pages is not meant to be the trendsetter. But in any case, I don't think we can include the NYT either: the article says "Pfc. Bradley E. Manning (who now wants to be known as Chelsea)", while the caption has "Pfc. Bradley Manning, who now uses the name Chelsea". Moreover, as far as I can tell, it doesn't use any pronouns at all to refer to Manning. In other words, it hasn't made the shift. StAnselm (talk) 11:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, that is my impression after looking around for a while. Besides NBC, Huff Post, the Daily Mail, MSNBC and Slate mentioned earlier it looks like the New York Times, the Telegraph and the Guardian (among others) are beginning to use Chelsea. The Christian Science Monitor has a writeup on the subject:
- Well, I'd like to see some evidence of the RS shift. What makes you say this? StAnselm (talk) 06:56, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Anselm makes a good point. For the most part, the sources that refer to Manning primarily use Bradley. Just because they mention the name Chelsea in the article does not mean they have shifted to that name. Deep Purple Dreams (talk) 13:38, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- That only applies to the NYT article, and the reason I mentioned that is because they are taking a step towards calling Manning Chelsea which was the original point: reliable sources are starting to favor Chelsea. The CSM article also mentions how NYT are reasoning which is why it was interesting aside from the mention of WP as inspiration. Space simian (talk) 14:36, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
User:Benlisquare. Can you tell me why you think that WP:RS trumps the fact that Manning has changed her name, and that it would be disrespectful and incorrect for us to continue calling her Bradley? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 13:46, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Quote: "and that it would be disrespectful and incorrect for us to continue calling her Bradley" - you see, this is the thing I don't understand, the "disrespectful" part. As an encyclopedia, what's more important, being respectful or laying down facts? Why don't we refer to the 14th Dalai Lama as "His Holiness" instead? Using his personal name in the lede is disrespectful, wouldn't you think? Why do we call North Korea's leader Kim Jong-un? If we were to have any respect for him, we would call him "The Brilliant Leader, General Kim Jong-un", since he requests to be called by such a name. The Korean Central News Agency uses that form officially, after all, as does the majority of North Korean print and broadcast media. What's with the double standard? We name Kim Jong-un based on his common English-language name, as used by the majority of English-language reliable sources. It is well established that people call the North Korean leader "Kim Jong-un" in English print media; it is not as established (I'm not saying "not established", I'm saying "not as established") yet that "Chelsea Manning" is the name that the English-language media mostly uses. --benlisquareT•C•E 13:58, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- If a reliable source said that someone issued a statement that they're Jewish and have been so since childhood, would we report the fact that they're Jewish in the article? Or would we say, "you're not Jewish unless you can prove you attend synagogue at least once a month"? Would it matter how many reliable sources reported on the Judaism statement? Stating that manning is still named bradley is simply incorrect. AgnosticAphid talk 14:24, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Ah. You seem to be describing servility or deference, submitting uncritically to the opinions or wishes of others. I'm referring to respect, recognition, the thing we all deserve. It's not being deferential to a person to call them by their chosen name, it's the least I would expect of a civilised person.
- To rephrase my question: since it is clear that Manning has changed her name, that this is a fact, what is the good, what would the benefit be in us continuing to call her by her former name. Would it not be both disrespectful and incorrect? I'd like to know whether you think it is true that she has changed her name, too. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 14:23, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Respect is not a goal here, Anthony; an encyclopedia is not a AA meeting or a therapy session. While we should not ever intentionally offend, sometimes offense is a byproduct of reporting the facts honestly, as you found out in the Muhammad image debate. Perhaps it wouldn't be a bad idea to take a cue from actual journalists. From CNN;
Tarc (talk) 14:27, 26 August 2013 (UTC)CNN's policy is to reference Manning with masculine pronouns since he has not yet taken any steps toward gender transition through surgery or hormone replacement therapy.
- Respect is not a goal here, Anthony; an encyclopedia is not a AA meeting or a therapy session. While we should not ever intentionally offend, sometimes offense is a byproduct of reporting the facts honestly, as you found out in the Muhammad image debate. Perhaps it wouldn't be a bad idea to take a cue from actual journalists. From CNN;
Helpful input from Jimbo Wales
Jimbo Wales has commented on the case being discussed on User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#Transphobia_on_Wikipedia (permanent), stating that "I support the move and change" (to Chelsea Manning), that "We ought to very strongly defer to how people identify themselves, but for various pedantic reasons, some editors insist on calling people by names that they very strongly reject. I consider that a BLP issue of some seriousness" and that "The point is that when something new happens, we update Misplaced Pages." Josh Gorand (talk) 11:41, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- ...and? Are you saying that we should follow his holiness' wishes? --benlisquareT•C•E 11:45, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Jimbo Wales and Sue Gardner have both recommended the current title, and cited good reasons for that. It seems clear there isn't a snowball's chance for this article being moved back. Josh Gorand (talk) 11:48, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Who is this Jimbo Wales guy? Do I need to know him? Is he a relevant person? Why is his opinion more important than others'? I bet he doesn't even bench press.
Who is this Sue Gardner lady? Do I need to know her? Is she a relevant person? Why is her opinion more important than others'? I bet she doesn't even bench press.
Why do I need to be concerned about these two people so much? Why are you repeatedly telling me that these people are so important? --benlisquareT•C•E 11:55, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Who is this Jimbo Wales guy? Do I need to know him? Is he a relevant person? Why is his opinion more important than others'? I bet he doesn't even bench press.
- Josh Gorand has been told at least a half-dozen times now that appeal to authority (and WP:Argumentum ad Jimbonem in particular) are not valid arguments to deploy in a debate, esp a contentious one. Mr Wales' and Ms. Gardner's opinions carry no more and no less weight than any of our own. Continuing to bring up a false assertion that their opinions must be weighted more when we clearly do not do such a thing could at some point be considered tendentious editing. Tarc (talk) 12:13, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I have partially quoted Jimbo with this addition to an essay "The overwhelming majority of sources in 2006 described Pluto as a planet. The majority of sources called Victoria Beckham by her maiden name Victoria Adams at the time of her marriage. The majority of sources described East Timor as part of Indonesia in 2002. The point is that Misplaced Pages content should be updated.Pass a Method talk 12:16, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Jimbo's opinion is his opinion; within this discussion, we should accept his opinion. I am not saying that we should ignore what Jimbo has to say. We should take his points into account, but with equal weight to everyone else's opinion. My point is that comments such as "It seems clear there isn't a snowball's chance for this article being moved back" are counterproductive. --benlisquareT•C•E 12:21, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I have partially quoted Jimbo with this addition to an essay "The overwhelming majority of sources in 2006 described Pluto as a planet. The majority of sources called Victoria Beckham by her maiden name Victoria Adams at the time of her marriage. The majority of sources described East Timor as part of Indonesia in 2002. The point is that Misplaced Pages content should be updated.Pass a Method talk 12:16, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- His opinion should account no more or less than anyone else's. He is just one editor, with access to the same policies and guidelines we have (most drafted completely independent of him). And, frankly, I read his comment as more of a "it's going to happen eventually, so what's done and is done" type of remark. I'm curious how he would have felt had the move request occurred with the article being at Bradley Manning. -- tariqabjotu 12:58, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Jimbo's opinion is in principle worth just as much as anyone else's, but in practice it's worth more because the quality of his arguments is usually a lot higher compared to that of a random editor. That's why a notification here that Jimbo has made a comment on this issue is worthwhile. It's quite similar to many physicists wanting to read any new article by Hawking, just because the author is Hawking, while they would not have done so if the author had been John Doe and the article title had been the same. Count Iblis (talk) 13:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- We all have four legs around here, I'm afraid. Either Jimbo is the hands-on chief from ~2005 or he's the benevolent symbolic leader of 2013. You can't pick and choose which Jimbo Era to visit like you're Doctor Who in his TARDIS. Tarc (talk) 13:31, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Jimbo's opinion is on the level of Newyorkbrad's. Someone we generally respect as a long standing community member who is often insightful and has more than once moved the project in a direction. However, we don't treat Jimbo as the final say in all things for two reasons: 1) Because this is a community project owned by no-one except the collective editors who donated their material under a certain license, and 2) Because Jimbo himself chose and instructed the community not to treat him as such.--v/r - TP 13:41, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
I wrote above that Wales and Gardner, who are knowledgable editors at this project, both have recommended that we use the current title, Jimbo citing BLP, Gardner arguing very convincingly citing MOS:IDENTITY. The point was to make readers of this talk page aware of a relevant discussion of the issue at hand where Jimbo and others offered valuable comments. Then we immediately get comments like "Who is this Jimbo Wales guy?" and "Are you saying that we should follow his holiness' wishes?" and even that their opinions on the issue "are not valid arguments" (sic!) and "I bet he doesn't even bench press", which look to me like a string of personal attacks on Jimbo (and Gardner). They are entitled to weigh in like everyone else, especially as they cite good rationales for their opinions. The snowball comment didn't refer to either of them, but rather to the fact that so many users agree BLP is the central issue at hand, and that most users who cite policy-based arguments oppose moving this article anywhere and support the current name. --Josh Gorand (talk) 13:34, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I would suggest that, while many users quite understandably see this as a separate issue to a name change upon marriage, or renaming the Millennium Stadium or whatever else covered by WP:COMMONNAME, the situation is that policy does not. You can say "I see this as a BLP issue", but there's nothing in BLP that suggests not updating an article name in such cases is a violation. You can say MOS:IDENTITY suggests that the article title should reflect the subject's wishes, but it doesn't say it outright. This case sheds light on that omission, and it's a positive thing that it has done so. So instead of saying the article should be at Chelsea Manning because of implications and interpretations and what many people would consider to be "right", get the policy clarified so it reflects the views of these senior members and directly and clearly explains what is "right" in such cases. U-Mos (talk) 14:04, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- You need to be aware that this is not the first time you have made similar comments, and given that in the past you have repeatedly made appeal to authority arguments, other people are well within their rights to suspect that you're trying to make another similar point. If your behaviour wasn't like it was in the past, perhaps you wouldn't have gotten such replies. We are often told to assume good faith, but I have seen the same authority-pandering rhetoric repeated at least fifteen times from you; would you really think that I'd still be able to treat you in a completely different manner? It's kind of like The boy who cried wolf. --benlisquareT•C•E 14:11, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
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