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Change

Changed the See Also reference to Clavell's Gai-Jin rather than Shogun. Shogun is set in the 17th century, beginning of the Edo Era, predating sonno-joi. Gai-Jin is set at the end of the Edo Era, mid-19th century, when the Sonno-joi movement was pivotal in overthrowing the bakufu. I really enjoy Clavell's work, except for his benighted changing of Tokugawa to Torunaga for reasons I cannot begin to fathom. I mean, Ieyasu is not going to sue! TimBovee 18:09, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Origins

Unfortunately, the section on "Origins" adopts a rather unsatisfactory stance. It treats Sonnō Jōi as a "philosophy", thus allowing the roots of the movement to be traced back to ancient China. In fact, Sonnō Jōi was a political movement. While it borrowed its name from (and was perhaps inspired by) the ancient Chinese zūnwáng rǎngyí, the two are completely distinct and unrelated movements. The Japanese are quite fond of borrowing historical labels from the Chinese -- 南北朝 and 戰國時代 are two obvious ones that spring to mind -- but that does not mean that these eras in history had anything to do with the Chinese ones. Similarly with the borrowing of the political slogan.

I therefore suggest that the section on the ancient "philosophy" of zūnwáng rǎngyí should be moved to a different section or location (say, "Etymology"), or the wording should be changed to indicate that the only connection is that the Japanese borrowed the slogan, not that they borrowed the "philosophy". At any rate, the Chinese slogan should not have pride of place in this article. If anything, zunwang rangyi should have its own separate article, quite distinct from sonnō jōi.

Bathrobe (talk) 01:21, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the article saying anything like that at all: it already states that the slogan sonno joi originates from China, but "the origin of the philosophy" can be traced to various Japanese 17th century scholars. Jpatokal (talk) 05:29, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the ordering may be the problem. By placing the etymology of the Chinese phrase first, it gives the impression that the Japanese movement is descended from the Chinese movement. I think that the etymology should occupy a subordinate or explanatory position in the article, after the Japanese origins of the movement have been explained. That is, the current "chronological ordering" (Chinese antiquity followed by Japanese modernity) should be changed to a "descriptive ordering" (description of Japanese movement, with note of its etymological origins).

Unless there are strong objections to this reordering, I propose to slightly rearrange that section.

Bathrobe (talk) 06:52, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

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