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Revision as of 04:36, 12 September 2013

Manual of Style

This page falls within the scope of the Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style, a collaborative effort focused on enhancing clarity, consistency, and cohesiveness across the Manual of Style (MoS) guidelines by addressing inconsistencies, refining language, and integrating guidance effectively.Manual of StyleWikipedia:WikiProject Manual of StyleTemplate:WikiProject Manual of StyleManual of Style This page falls under the contentious topics procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Misplaced Pages Manual of Style, and the article titles policy. Both areas are subjects of debate. Contributors are urged to review the awareness criteria carefully and exercise caution when editing. For information on Misplaced Pages's approach to the establishment of new policies and guidelines, refer to WP:PROPOSAL. Additionally, guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Misplaced Pages policies of Misplaced Pages's policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations.

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Capitalization

MOS:MUSIC says:

Titles that include parentheses should be capitalized as follows: the part outside the parentheses should be capitalized as if the parenthetical words are not present; the part inside the parentheses should be capitalized as if there were no parentheses at all.

While MOS:CT says:

Capitalize parenthetical phrases in titles as if they were separate titles (e.g. "(Don't Fear) The Reaper").

I ask this because "It Takes a Little Rain (To Make Love Grow)" has gone back and forth on capitalizing the "to" several times. MOS:CT says capitalize it; MOS:MUSIC says don't. If two policies are contradicting each other, then it's obvious that one should be fixed. I believe that MOS:CT should be the "parent" guideline here, with the capitalization section written to match it — since generalized policies almost always outweigh genre-specific ones. Ten Pound Hammer • 02:23, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

• Comment. I tried to get a discussion about this going at WT:MOSCAPS#Apparent conflict of guidelines, but there was insufficient particpation to generate any useful consensus. Except for one, all the commenters seemed, however, to agree that the way to go is to bring the MOS:CT guideline into line with the MOS:MUSIC one (i.e., the opposite of what TPH recommends above). That tends to be my opinion as well: The parenthetical elements in titles like "It Takes a Little Rain (to Make Love Grow)" function not as subtitles or alternative titles but as extensions of titles, so that although the "real" title is "It Takes a Little Rain", many people may refer to the song as "It Takes a Little Rain to Make Love Grow"; and I think that inserting parentheses around the extension phrase shouldn't affect the capitalization within the phrase. Nevertheless, I recommend that others at least glance at the WT:MOSCAPS discussion I cited above to familiarize themselves with some of the ramifications of either choice. Deor (talk) 12:06, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

• MOSCAPS' way seems to be more established, though, as many other pages capitalize parentheticals. And I can't find any style guidelines that say anything either way. Furthermore, the lowercase "to" looks wrong to me. Ten Pound Hammer • 12:18, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

• Comment — I think "It Takes a Little Rain (To Make Love Grow)" is preferable to "It Takes a Little Rain (to Make Love Grow)".

  Besides, does it really matter? But if somebody were to put a gun to my head and ask me for a straight answer I would go for MOS:MUSIC. But that's just me. I hope it helps.  Brendon is here 07:01, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I would add to this the following question: should the word "the" in the band name "The Beatles" be capitalized if the word "the" is in the middle of a sentence? I mean, I always see the word "the" in "the United States" capitalized only when the country name begins a sentence, but left lowercase otherwise. --Marceki111 (talk) 20:32, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

No, you're right, it should not. Rothorpe (talk) 20:37, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

This has been discussed extensively; see Misplaced Pages talk:Requests_for_mediation/The_Beatles#Episode_IV:_A_New_Poll --hulmem (talk) 01:10, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

• Comment. This guideline directly contradicts MOS:CT and we should not have a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS MoS which defers to MOS:CT for further explanation. This lack of uniformity is misleading and confusing. I've been WP:BOLD and updated the project page to show the same rules and example as MOS:CT, although I don't expect it to stay without discussion! --Rob Sinden (talk) 14:36, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

I'd also suggest that any further discussion on this should be at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters as we shouldn't really be diverging from the main guideline on this, and any reasons for divergence here would most likely also have cause for change on a wider scale. --Rob Sinden (talk) 14:56, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Okay, as suspected, my edit was reverted. Please join the discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Contradiction and divergence at MOS:MUSIC --Rob Sinden (talk) 15:54, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Roman font?

In §Classical music titles this sentence:

Generic movement titles (such as tempo markings or terms like minuet and trio) are capitalized with a single initial capital—that is, only the first word is capitalized—and in roman type.

Really? So this, from the Korngold Symphony in F sharp major article, should look like this:

1. Moderato, ma energico -- intense and stormy, with a jagged main theme
2. Scherzo
3. Adagio -- long, profound and meditative, in the tradition of Anton Bruckner. A memorial to Roosevelt.
4. Finale -- optimistic; listeners will recognize references to film music and the song, "Over There".

I got here because roman font is mentioned for tempo markings at MOS:Ety. But, looking further through MOS:Music, roman font is mentioned a lot. Can this really be true? The normal Misplaced Pages font is sans serif. Is it really necessary to use a different font face?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 18:39, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

"Roman" in this case simply means "not italic", so the MOS is saying that it should be "Scherzo" rather than "Scherzo" or "scherzo", etc. Deor (talk) 19:52, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Right, I'll change it so that a font different from the normal Misplaced Pages font is not explicitly specified. And I'll fix the Korngold and MOS:Ety as well.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 23:29, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

In §Classical music titles this:

There are five acceptable methods for specifying the nickname after the generic title:

1. in parentheses: Symphony No. 9 (From the New World)
2. ...

If one is to believe the image of the title page of the autograph score, From the New World is a true title and not a nickname. The nickname would be New World Symphony. If this is true, then that set of examples may not be as good it should be.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 00:50, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. (Z nového světa = From the New World) -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:33, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Naming conventions for list articles (as relates to songs)

There is a discussion regarding the naming of list articles as it applies to songs at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Songs. Interested parties may like to have a look and comment. This is message is also posted at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Music and Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Lists. --Richhoncho (talk) 10:13, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Beatles RfC

You are invited to participate in an RfC at Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for mediation/The Beatles on the issue of capitalising the definite article when mentioning that band's name in running prose. This long-standing dispute is the subject of an open mediation case and we are requesting your help with determining the current community consensus. Thank you for your time. For the mediators. ~ GabeMc 03:45, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

No spaces in band/artist names

What is the relation of the following guideline to the stylization of band or artist names without spaces, such as 65daysofstatic, Sleepmakeswaves, Alexisonfire, etc.

"Standard English text formatting and capitalization rules apply to the names of bands and individual artists" (Misplaced Pages:MUSTARD#Capitalization)

It seems to me that these should then be 65 Days of Static, Sleep Makes Waves, and Alexis on Fire.

To write these without spaces feels to me to be simply reproducing stylizations and trademarks (MOS:TM).

But, if so, why should bands such as Coldplay, Slowdive or Deerhunter not be Cold Play, Slow Dive and Deer Hunter?

Is there a distinction to be made on the grounds that the former bands have names that are more grammatical? Wetdogmeat (talk) 02:44, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

MOSstyle relates to capitalizations and designs, so if the name of the band is 65daysofstatic then that's the name and how it should be shown. OTOH if the name was 65DaysOfStatic, then WP should still render as 65daysofstatic. As per my signature, I am not Rich Honcho, or Rich honcho, but I am --Richhoncho (talk) 23:34, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Replace the word "acts" in infoboxes with either "bands" or "artists"

I suggest that editors replace the word "acts" in infoboxes with either "bands" or "artists", depending on if the article talks about a band or a solo artist. This change must be done, as the word "act" leads to confusion since it is used to also mean a number at a circus or a division of a theatrical play.--Marceki111 (talk) 19:48, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Capitalization of abbreviations

My attention has just been called to the fact that this style sheet specifies the capitalization of the abbreviations for "opus" and "number". While this was standard practice in English writing through the 1940s, since that time it has increasingly become the norm to render these abbreviations lowercase (as, indeed, the words are always treated when spelled out). In fact, by 1982 the Chicago Manual of Style (13th edition) specified: "The abbreviation op. (opus; pl. opp. or opera) and no. (number; pl. nos.) are usually lowercased, but both are sometimes capitalized; either style is acceptable if consistently observed". By the 16th edition (2010), the option of capitalization has been dropped, though the word "usually" is still present. Of course, the CMS is only one authority among many, but I believe most if not all such sources agree on this point, and certainly the practice of scholarly journals is overwhelmingly in favor of lowercase. Is there an explanation somewhere for the deviation in this guideline from normal practice in music literature?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:39, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

I see a lot of upper-case, too. Looking at my books, Heartz, AP Brown, Winter & Martin, Steinberg, Berger, Caplin, Rushton, Sutcliffe, Drabkin, Webster all use upper case. Rosen, R.Will, R.L. Marshall use lower-case. This is just a quick unscientific survey but I don't see a unanimous move of the scholarly types towards lowercase. Academic Journals likely have fixed formatting style sheets for these types of things. I don't know what sides they fall on. As for wikipedia, I think a reasonably large group of editors reached a consensus on it and then standardized. The important thing was to be consistent. Its more awkward seeing a mix from page to page or even paragraph to paragraph.DavidRF (talk) 01:43, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

And one has to consider that the extreme majority of published music uses upper case. That I would think should be just as important. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 02:07, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

What have the cover-design choices of publishers to do with it (not to mention the fact that a large number of editions still in print date back a hundred years or more)? I must protest to DavidRF that I did not use the word "unanimous", and that ten books can easily be found to counter those ten, and ten more in the face of the next ten offered. However, this would be a waste of all our time. Style guides are not unanimous among themselves either, of course. Demar Irvine, for example, has stuck to the older preference through several posthumous editions, and the New York Times style sheet also prefers capitals. However, D. Kern Holoman's Writing about Music stands alongside the Chicago Manual as the most authoritative reference on the subject in America, and Holoman does not even suggest the possibility of capitalizing "op." (or "no.", when the latter is a subdivision of the former). In the UK, the New Oxford Style Manual (incorporating New Hart's Rules) is equally unambiguous. Having said this, I should make it clear that I am not suggesting that the present guideline on this matter should be overturned. It merely seems to me that, in light of the weight of these authorities, the lowercase option should at least be allowed, so long as a consistent style in maintained within any one article.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:22, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

I said my survey was "quick and unscientific", but I think it was enough to refute your claim of "overwhelmingly in favor of lowercase". I don't understand how a style guide can be considered so authoritative when so many famous musicologists ignore it. Yes, many publications do use the lowercase conventions too but I've looked more and I'm still finding that uppercase outnumbers lowercase around two to one or so -- even among recent publications. Most single publications pick one and stick with it. We just happened to pick the uppercase one here. We're not going to get into an edit war over something like this. If you've recently written an article using lowercase, then no one is going to sweep through and change it (unless its in the page title). A lot of these fussy details get overlooked if the content is good. I'd rather not change the specifications here though, because then there will be a push for thousands of page moves which I think would too disruptive. I'm just one voice, of course. If you want to discuss this with the larger group we can post a note at WP:CM and get more opinions.DavidRF (talk) 05:59, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps you read different publications than I do. I can tell you, however, that my investigation here was prompted by a threat to do exactly what you say no one is going to do, and I have had to revert exactly this change in a number of articles in the past, where one editor or another has claimed, "It is wrong to use lowercase". This is the first time someone has tried to tell me where this authority lies. I have to say that, while the idea of uniformity across all of Misplaced Pages is an attractive idea, there are areas where this matters a lot more than the present question. Referencing formats, for a start, where there is a de facto policy of non-uniformity. My original question actually was "Is there an explanation somewhere for the deviation in this guideline from normal practice in music literature?" I might rephrase this now, "Who is this 'We' who 'just happened to pick uppercase', and where did 'We' make this decision?"—Jerome Kohl (talk) 06:38, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

I thought I had answered your question on "normal practice" with a dozen contradictions. If Sisman, Heartz, Brown, Webster and the Cambridge Guides do it one way and Rosen, New Grove and Oxford do it another how can one say there's a "normal practice" which can be deviated from? You can check the archives on this page (archives 2 & 3) and at WP:CM (archives 17 & 18) as well as Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (music) and its talk page to see how the naming conventions were discussed. These discussions were in 2007 and 2008 or so. I was only peripherally involved. I believe ] was leading some of it and he's still around. I didn't personally agree with everything myself (not a big fan of the hyphen between the key letter and flat/sharp but I got used to it). I see now the concern raised on your recent article by a good editor pointing to the WP:OPUS guideline. But, I've also seen cases in the Handel and Bach areas where an editor puts his foot down and won't change some things and people look the other way because his content is so good. Post a note at the talk page at ] if you want more feedback. I think more people watch that page.DavidRF (talk) 08:02, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

To describe my edit summary at Jacobo Ficher ("'op. xx' ought to be capitalised (WP:OPUS) – later") as a "threat" seems overly sensitive. I simply wanted to point to Misplaced Pages's style guide in this matter. This one, like almost all other Misplaced Pages style guides, has been picked by consensus from a variety of different usage patterns in the established literature; this is similar to the Opera Project's treatment of foreign language, particularly French, titles. The number of editors coming to this conclusion was smallish (some prefer not to make a "me too" contribution if they agree with the likely result), and a different set of editors might have reached a different consensus. Having now such a guideline and the resulting consistency is a good thing. Whether is must be enforced in every article ought to be a judgement call; in the edit mentioned above I chose not to. On the other hand, I think it's impractical and unnecessary to change the guideline. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:58, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Coming from a European background, where to my observation everything from Beethoven to Reger was written lowercase and published like that, I was surprised to see here the capital "Op." that looks overly stately to me. The consensus mentioned had been reached before I came. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:20, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

First of all, I owe Michael Bednarek an apology for having used the word "threat" without qualification. Michael is one of the most reliable and vigilant editors I have encountered on Misplaced Pages, and I always take his points seriously. Nevertheless, I read the edit summary: "op. xx" ought to be capitalised (WP:OPUS) – later" as a promise (a better word, I think) to return and change this transgression of mine at some later date. Second, I should probably also make plain that another editor whom I have reverted on this subject more than once is JackofOz. I think I may owe him an apology, too, now that I know there is an official Misplaced Pages format. Third, it should be abundantly clear by now that "normal practice" does not mean "always lowercase", but neither does it mean "always capitalized". I also stand by my former position that lowercase is increasingly the predominant usage—at least in the academy, where I have been observing this trend since the mid-1960s.

Fourth, and finally, I think it necessary to answer a question from DavidRF left open earlier, namely "how a style guide can be considered so authoritative when so many famous musicologists ignore it". The answer is that authors seldom if ever have the authority to override the house style of their publishers, which are established in their style sheets. A few of these style sheets are published, and the most respected ones are used by many other publishers as the basis of their own house style. In America, the Chicago Manual is one of the most prominent of these, and one of the few comprehensive enough to extend to musicological subjects. It is still somewhat sketchy in this area, which is why D. Kern Holoman's book (originally the style sheet for 19th Century Music) has become so useful. In the UK, the Cambridge and Oxford style guides have a similar position. It is usually possible to determine which of these style guides a publisher uses by consulting their online instructions to authors. In other cases, the publisher supplies a style sheet to author's on request, or upon acceptance of their work for publication. More often than not, this in-house style sheet will refer to one of the published guides, and indicate any significant deviations. Misplaced Pages editors ought to be aware of how such styles are developed in the publishing trade, which is very different from the consensus method used on Misplaced Pages.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 16:53, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Sure. I've published papers before. It was in science and not in music but its still a field where there are lots of symbols and abbreviations. In my field, what was usually done is that some sort of macro is used and the journal applies their style sheet interpreting the macros. If the paper is sent to a different journal then subtle things (like Op. vs op.) will look different. We were usually just happy that the paper was published and spreading publications to different journals provided better visibility for the group. I'm checking as many recent and scholarly music publications as I can. I do see many op.'s and no.'s but at least as many Op.'s and No.'s. That's my general beef with these types of style guides. They aren't as followed in practice as they sound when reading them. So, I don't think invoking Holoman is enough to overrule the preferences here. Maybe I just don't want the disruption of thousands of page moves, but setting the "Op." and "No." preferences on this page are not unreasonable choices for wikipedia.DavidRF (talk) 17:54, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Song lyrics disambiguation and hatnotes

Other users and I have gotten into discussions in which it was declared that potential confusion is not a sufficient reason to include a song lyric excerpt in a disambiguation entry or hatnote; the confusion must be a significant topic in reliable sources.

Where is this guideline documented? I assume WP:V/WP:RS/WP:N are meant to cover this, but they aren't clear what the standard of verifiability is for disambiguations and hatnotes. Should we make it more explicit in the MoS? Or am I misreading the consensus?

(I am not sure whether this is the best venue. Related pages: WP:MOSDAB, WP:Hatnote, WP:Misplaced Pages is not Google) --SoledadKabocha (talk) 04:22, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

changing main MOS to match MOS:MUSIC

MOS:MUSIC differs from the main MOS on caps, and many of us feel this is the superior version. (See discussion over there on this.) However, your rule, while better, has its problems. I found Courtesy of the Red, White and Blue (The Angry American) where, IMO, the "capitalize as if the parentheses did not exist" rule does not work, because removing the parentheses would result in gibberish. I think in cases like this, where the parentheses indicate an alternative title rather than the full title, that the parenthetical part needs to be capitalized as if it stood alone. Consider Give Up the Funk (Tear the Roof off the Sucker), which in the info box is Tear the Roof off the Sucker (Give Up the Funk). Okay, in this case it makes no difference, but obviously treating that as a single line w/o parentheses wouldn't work. — kwami (talk) 00:40, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Addition to MOS: names of organizations and institutions

Names of organizations and institutions are not currently covered by the MOS. I propose adding the following section (It's already been discussed by WP:CM.) :

Organisations and institutions

Names of organisations and institutions (e.g. orchestras, musical ensembles and groups, concert halls, festivals, schools etc.) should follow official usage (i.e. the spelling, punctuation etc. used by the organisation’s own publications). In the case of non-English names, we use official English versions if and when they have been established by the organisation itself. If not, we use the native name. Original English names, translated from other languages, should not be created.

Please suggest improvements. --Kleinzach 07:26, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

 DoneKleinzach 05:26, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Nationality

From this guideline:

• "Nationality should refer to national identity, in other words the national group with which the person identified, not the state of which the person was a citizen or subject."

This appears to contradict MOS:BIO:

• "In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable."

Comments are welcome. Thanks, Toccata quarta (talk) 07:03, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

In my view, the guideline here is better drafted. If there is a problem, it's at MOS:BIO. --Kleinzach 08:02, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Huh? If an American citizen says "I'm a Japanese citizen", Misplaced Pages should do the same? That violates WP:PSTS, as well as common sense. Toccata quarta (talk) 08:17, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Names with a definitive article, i.e. The

This article states: "Mid-sentence, per the MoS, the word "the" should in general not be capitalized in continuous prose" While WP:MoS states: "However there are some conventional exceptions," One of these exceptions is the title of artistic works, but why does this exception not extend to the title of bands? Is The Beatles not the full, entire name? Does that not make The Beatles a proper noun? And do we not capitalize all proper nouns, even if that proper noun starts with the? Rip-Saw (talk) 03:25, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

And what about "The The"?  ;) --Rob Sinden (talk) 08:08, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Cover songs layout

Shouldn't there be a section on here specifying when and how notable cover versions of songs would need new sections on the existing article of the original song? Raykyogrou0 (Talk) 16:26, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Prominent notational example contains grammatical blooper

This example displays a grammatical error that an eight-year-old music student should see straight away: parallel fifths, between soprano and alto voices. Can someone correct it? Otherwise, it should be pulled, I think.

. And less important is the problem that the "6" is not smaller and superscript, after the roman numeral IV. I can live with that. Tony (talk) 10:51, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Why do the parallel fifths matter in this case? The example is illustrating neither correct nor incorrect compositional usage, and is not referenced to any particular musical style (in many of which parallel fifths are perfectly acceptable).—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:21, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

It's an example of pure four-part homophony, which is almost universally a texture used to illustrate the technical aspects of tonal harmony and voice-leading. Blatant parallel fifths ... especially between the top two parts, will sound weird, and are universally known to be a bad grammatical fault. It's clearly not Debussyan parallel fifths for a textural or extra-musical effect (e.g. Images). And last time I looked, this example made no allusion to non- or semi-tonal styles, including certain types of pop and jazz, where this might be used as an effect.

So why would you illustrate an architectural style of brick facade with a picture of a wall that has been smeared with faeces? Tony (talk) 03:39, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Very colourful language, but the analogy does not hold. If you will look at the context in which the example is found, you will discover that it is not illustrating "pure four-part homophony" or "the technical aspects of tonal harmony and voice-leading". Instead, it is being used as an "Example of large image size with little space between notes", showing how to "keep the score as large as possible" so as "not contain large spaces between the notes". It makes no difference for what this example might or might not be used elsewhere (perhaps an example of truly dreadful parallel fifths, to be avoided at all costs). The only question here should be, is it a good illustration for the point being made? —Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:51, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Tony1, you complained about this image at least once before – see Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Music/Archive 6#Deary me: parallel 5ths in example (27 July 2011). I responded at the time: "Apparently, that example is a transcription from a book (see File:D'Indy Tristan chord IV6-V small.PNG, although from which is not clear to me from that description)." Which other image would you like to see to illustrate point 3.2 of Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Music#Images and notation? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:22, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Yep, again. It's a flashing light suggesting that WP is ignorant. If someone could put the soprano voice under the alto, it would be just fine. Also, it's not a Tristan chord, so the filename is very misleading. Tony (talk) 07:22, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Your response baffles me: Applying "ignorant" not to a sentient being but to a publication strikes me as odd; even odder coming from an editor with almost 100,000 contributions since 2005 to this publication. And "ignorant" of what? As Jerome pointed out above, it's not used to illustrate four-part homophony or any other aspect of tonal harmony – and parallel fifths are not universally verboten. You must be aware that this is an image and changing the notation there is not possible. Why don't you provide a better example? However, I can't see the point of that subsection and suggest that it be wholly removed. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:57, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

OK. Yeah ... "Example of large image size with little space between notes:" ... Maybe I'm thick, but it's unclear to me. To go back to the original point: the acceptability of parallel fifths in some contexts is widely known, and I alluded to it above. But not in four-part vocal style to illustrate, in such an exposed way, a traditional point. It's rather like using bad grammar to illustrate a linguistic point ... it's unnecessary and undesirable. Tony (talk) 15:41, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

FWIW, I have made the nearly superhuman effort to actually examine the example in situ. It is an analytic reduction, by which d'Indy attempts to explain the underlying, simpler construction upon which the Tristan chord and its resolution are based. Such diagrams are often used (by theorists of such opposed camps as Schenker and Schoenberg, for example) to illustrate how parallel fifths or octaves in a more background structure are avoided or disguised by voice-leading embellishments at a more foreground level. D'Indy's purpose here seems to be the reverse: to reveal an underlying case of parallel-fifth construction by stripping away the surface voice leading. The citation is at second-hand, however, from a book by Jean-Jacques Nattiez, where it is given as an example of one amongst several very diverse ways of explaining the Tristan chord. As Michael points out, it would be wholly inappropriate to change d'Indy's analysis for the sake of an ignorant assumption of what the musical content is meant to represent. Perhaps Tony has got a good point, however. If he can jump to this mistaken conclusion, then so might many other Misplaced Pages readers who lack either the technical expertise or the desire to make the two mouse clicks necessary to track down the context of the example. If an equivalent example of the technical requirements of music typesetting (without the seemingly offensive parallel fifths) can be found, then of course it should be substituted. Unless, of course, the whole section is deleted, as Michael suggests.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 16:13, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

As the paragraph that has this image is about using off-wiki score notation software it should be scrapped. We now have the Score extension, which produces scores at a set size. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 03:43, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Score extension

It would probably be helpful to mention the score extension in the manual and encourage people to use it instead of creating scores in other programs: mw:Extension:Score. --WS (talk) 14:28, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Coding accidentals

The section Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Music#Accidentals seems very plain, that the templates of the form {{Music|symbolname}} are preferred for accidentals. However, an issue arose today over the article Oboe, when an editor replaced three of these templates with what look to me like XML markup, justifying the change on grounds that "they symbol itself" is preferable to these templates. Upon checking the MOS/Music more carefully, I discovered a mention of these codes much further down the list, at Images and notation, subhead 6, which seems either to flatly contradict the earlier section, or at least to offer an alternative way of marking up text. It does look as if this reference to XML code may be meant to apply to musical examples inserted in articles, rather than to article text, but this is not entirely clear. Can the guideline be amended in some way, either to indicate both of thesese methods are equally acceptable, or to plainly indicate which is preferred?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:04, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

I can see no reason to use HTML character entities instead of the template {{Music}}; I suggest to remove the inconsistent subheading 6 you mentioned. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:12, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

It appears from further discussion on my talk page that the template merely calls the HTML code spelled out in subheading 6. Does this make any difference to your opinion? I do not myself understand why templates should be preferred to plain, honest code for which they are only surrogates.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 06:19, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

It's true that the template merely emits those HTML codes, although that may have been different over that template's lifetime. Anyway, almost all templates can be written in plain Wiki markup – their point is to make Wiki text easier to write and read. It also provides the small benefit of being able to see where such things are being used. I still think the guideline is correct in its advice to use the template, and the inconsistent line should be removed. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:44, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I can see the logic in that. Certainly it is easier for me to remember the music-template calls than the seemingly arbitrary HTML codes for the characters, and they are more transparent when working in the edit window.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 16:19, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

No-one has to remember the codes as the three characters ♭♯♮ are in the Symbols drop-down menu underneath the edit window here on WP. I only used the unicode codes because I know them, but they are functionally equivalent ♭ ♯ ♮.

I believe the music template should be deprecated for inline accidentals, which will reduce template calls on music-related pages. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 03:54, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

That drop-down box and those symbols may be available in your environment, but I'm not sure they are present in every skin and on every Misplaced Pages editing platform (mobile devices), and I suspect they are not easily accessible to editors with various impairments. Anyway, the proper place to discuss this is probably Template talk:Music. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:40, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Names (definite article)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Regarding: "For bands, capitalized "The" is optional in wikilinks and may be preferred when listing: A number of groups increasingly showed blues influences, among them The Rolling Stones, The Animals and The Yardbirds."

Why? This passage runs counter to the rest of our MoS:

The Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Music#Capitalization states:

• "Standard English text formatting and capitalization rules apply to the names of bands and individual artists".

The Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (music) states that a lower-case definite article should be used in band names:

• "Mid-sentence, per the MoS, the word 'the' should in general not be capitalized in continuous prose, e.g. 'Wings featured Paul McCartney from the Beatles and Denny Laine from the Moody Blues.'"

Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (music)#Capitalization states:

• In band names, and titles of songs or albums, capitalize all words except:

• articles (an, a, the)

The Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Capital letters says:

• "Generally do not capitalize the definite article in the middle of a sentence."

• According to Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Lists#Horizontal lists:

Horizontal lists

In situations such as infoboxes, a single-line list may be useful—in this case:

List type

entry one, entry two, entry three

Heading 1	Heading 2
List with commas	Entry 1, entry 2, entry 3
List with {{Flatlist}}	Entry 1 entry 2 entry 3

Note the capitalization of only the first word in this list (but words that are normally capitalized would still be capitalized). This applies regardless of the separator used between the list type and the entries themselves—whether it is a comma (as in the first example above), or even an infobox divider (as in the second example above).

Support removal

1. Support removal. There is no obvious reason why band names should be subject to different rules from other weak proper names, like "the Tower of London", "the Acropolis" and the wording is likely to generate more contention rather than less. --Boson (talk) 14:00, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
2. As nom and per my above comments. This is the only direct contradiction that I know of to the accepted consensus per the rest of the MoS. GabeMc 22:49, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
3. Support removal. There is no other place that I'm aware of where text styling depends on whether it's in a wikilink (except for color); nor any other horizontal list with exceptional capitalization options. I see no reason for it here. It came in during a brief edit war that got interrupted by a merge from the old WP:MUSTARD (see the last few edits there), which is not a sensible heritage suggesting any kind of consensus. The capitalization should be the same as if the "the" were mid-sentence; capitalization is either necessary or it's not; "optional" is wrong. Dicklyon (talk) 01:22, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
4. Remove. The definite article is not strong enough for band names as to require capitalization. The "the" may be eliminated altogether in some formulations. For instance, various Beatles have said "we Beatles" rather than "we The Beatles". More to the point, the majority of manuals of style recommend lower case "the" in running prose. Binksternet (talk) 03:26, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
5. Without opining on whether the general rule should be "The" or "the", there is no reason for such an exception which is inconsistent with the other guidelines. —sroc 💬 06:02, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
6. Support removal per sroc. From a logical point of view, Trovatore has posted interesting examples like The Hague, but I cannot see any justification for band names to be treated differently from other cases. Regardless of any arguments based on logic, our general MOS adopts the position taken by very many style guides out there. --Stfg (talk) 08:06, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
7. Support removal. Already established in the lengthy Beatles mediation that lower case is proper and no justification has been offered to show why upper case should be used in a comma separated list. Piriczki (talk) 12:55, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
8. Support removal. Claiming special status for popular-music bands is insupportable arrogance. This is not done for the names of other musical ensembles, such as the New York Philharmonic, the Borodin Quartet, or the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. What possible reason can there be to grant special status to pop bands oops, I mean Rock Legends.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:18, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
9. Support removal. In the far-off days when I worked as a copy editor, this used to come up frequently with regard to the names of newspapers, in some of which (such as The New York Times) the was "officially" part of the paper's name—meaning that it appeared in the masthead—and in some of which (such as the Chicago Tribune) it wasn't. Since it was a pain to research the "official" form of all newspapers' names that might be mentioned in a publication, the advice of the Chicago Manual of Style was to lowercase (and not italicize) the initial the for all of them. That seems to be a good precedent to follow here. Also, what Jerome Kohl said immediately above. Deor (talk) 23:56, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
10. Support removal. As noted above, 1) consistency, 2) already been settled re the Beatles. --Lukobe (talk) 17:35, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
11. Strong support removal. In my opinion, this is the correct way on top of 1) consistency, 2) already been settled re the Beatles. Mlpearc (powwow) 01:25, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
12. Remove per Binksternet. This is what sources do, so we should do it too. --John (talk) 05:37, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
13. Support removal. The use in the quoted passage is not in line with broad consensus on Misplaced Pages's house style. We've had lengthy discussions regarding the example of the Beatles, and had confirmed that we use lower case in all cases. Capitalisation of "the" in a band's name is a matter of punctuation and a publication's house style. It varies from publication to publication. In Misplaced Pages we use the lower case "the". SilkTork 06:51, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
14. Support removal. Tony (talk) 06:57, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
15. I don't think I've made a secret of my position on this whole thing: The majority of style guides tell writers not to capitalize the definite article, and there's no good reason I've found for Misplaced Pages to deviate from the majority style. During the Beatles mediation I advocated that its scope be broadened to include all band names, and notices sent out accordingly. That didn't happen, but that doesn't mean there's any good reason to dig up the issue again. Everyone, please, for the sake of time, human knowledge, and your deity or deities of choice, let's get this over with, resolve the contradiction, and all find something better to talk about. Evanh2008  00:14, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
16. Suport removal. "The" being capitalized would indicate it's part of the proper name, which would then require constructs such as "...he joined the The Beatles in 1963..." which is silly. You don't get a pass from normal grammar just because you snort coke and can play the drums. Herostratus (talk) 00:46, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
17. Support removal for editorial consistency (though I will miss the capital The in many of my favorite band's names). -- — Keithbob • Talk • 19:46, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Oppose removal

1. WP avoids unnecessary capitalization, but proper nouns should be capitalized. If the word "The" is an integral part of the name, as opposed to simply being used as an ordinary English definite article, then it ought to be majuscule. Whether it is an integral part of the name is a question of fact, not style, and needs to be figured out on a case-by-case basis (but one possible rule of thumb is to see whether it makes grammatical sense as a definite article; for example, the The in The Who does not make grammatical sense, so it's probably an integral part of the name). --Trovatore (talk) 01:19, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
2. I obviously oppose an editor's attempt to cover his mistake retroactively. Joefromrandb (talk) 05:03, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
3. I oppose removal. It is obvious to an Anglo-Irish editor that The Beatles, The Yardbirds, The Who, The The, The Rolling Stones, The Chemical Brothers, The Proclaimers, The Cardigans, The Byrds, The Four Tops, The Smiths, The Stranghlers, The Velvet Undergound should have a capitalized The. It may seem different to Americans, but that is how they are written up on this side of the pond. Jezhotwells (talk) 12:54, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
4. Oppose removal, "The" is part of these bands' names, and it should remain "The" (with a capital "T"), regardless of where in the sentence it is used. —Bruce1ee 09:00, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
5. Opppose removal for the reasons mentioned above - if it's part of the band name it should be treated as a proper noun. WaggersTALK 11:29, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
6. Oppose removal, agreeing with the above reasons: if "The" is part of the name it should be capitalised. Mark Hurd (talk) 11:57, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
7. Oppose removal - These are not just identifiers, these are trademarks. "The Beatles" is the trademark of the band known as such. Same with the other bands mentioned above. Trademark capitalization is generally respected in MOS guides, and I believe it should be respected here. Perhaps this aspect should be clarified in MOS/Music --| Uncle Milty | talk | 17:17, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

This logical aberration only serves as a bone of contention during these minutia-based typography debates. I suggest that the entire passage be removed. Any thoughts? GabeMc 01:31, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes. This is utter nonsense; a manipulative ploy to ensure that you retain ownership of "your" articles, down to the finest detail. Joefromrandb (talk) 01:46, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

• Trovatore, I think Who in the Who is being used as a noun, regardless of its technical position as a pronoun, and since its grammatically the subject of a sentence, clause or fragment, I don't see a huge leap to noun there. Also FWIW, according to CMOS, its the Who: "A the preceding a name, even when part of the official title, is lowercased in running text." (16th ed., 2010, p.416) GabeMc 01:39, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

  Well, I think CMOS is really just wrong on this. English capitalizes proper nouns, even if the Trib doesn't. The type case for this sort of thing is The Hague, which basically everyone (quite properly) capitalizes, because the The really, factually, is an integral part of the name. What is a hague? No one knows; it's not anything, it's just part of the name The Hague. Same for The Who, in my view. --Trovatore (talk) 01:42, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

  I hear you, but can you name another common example besides The Hague? Also, was Lennon any more a Beatle then Townshend a Who? GabeMc 01:48, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

  Not as well known, but The Colony, Texas — this one actually would make sense as a definite article, which is why my rule of thumb is only a rule of thumb, not definitive. As for your second question, the answer is yes — *Pete Townshend is a Who I reject as completely ungrammatical. --Trovatore (talk) 01:54, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

  Right, and I agree, but why is it more grammatical to say that Lennon was a Beatle than Townshend was a Who or Jones was a Stone? Also, consider that if a capitalized "The" is optional in wikilinks, then the following construction would be permissible: "In 1967, The Mamas & the Papas met the Beatles after a show with The Who and the Rolling Stones. Later that year, they headlined an open air festival that included The Grateful Dead, the Jimi Hendrix Experience and The Animals. At any rate, don't you think that the MoS mainpage prescription takes precedent over this subpage guideline? GabeMc 02:08, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

  Well, John and Paul and crew sort of invited us to talk about individual Beatles by choosing a plural name; that's why it's more grammatical. As for the MoS conflict, my view is that the main MoS is controlled by a coalition of parties that have some fixed ideas, and the anti-capitals party is too strong. I'm fine with the general WP approach, article names in sentence case and so on, but proper nouns should be capitalized. --Trovatore (talk) 02:17, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

  Yeah, I can see that; its a good point, but then was Denny Laine a Moody Blue, Chas Chandler an Animal, Ray Davies a Kink and Brian Jones a Stone, but Pete Townshend not a Who and Mitch Mitchell not an Experience all due to their band name's plurality or lack thereof (note that all three examples in the current text are plural)? I think that some band names use words as nouns that would not usually be used as such. Anyway, why should list case be any different then sentence case, IYO? GabeMc 02:31, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

  The Hague is a proper name and would be capitalized, per reasonably consistent caps in modern sources; not so 100 years ago. Maybe some day the Beatles will attain similar status, but I doubt it. See book n-grams. Dicklyon (talk) 03:03, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

  Is this really addressing the proposal? As I understand it, the proposal is to remove a statement about the use of such proper names when used in links, etc., i.e making it optional (or possibly preferred) to capitalize "the", when it would not otherwise be capitalized (e.g. in a horizontal list in the middle of a table entry or sentence). Removal of the statement as per the proposal should not make any difference to band names where "the" would be capitalized mid-sentence (conceivable, for instance, if there were a band named "The Hague", after the Dutch town). --Boson (talk) 07:59, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

What about The The? Or should that be the The? Interesting that this usage differs from song/album titles which begin with a capital even when starting with an article. See also: Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for mediation/The Beatles. —sroc 💬 01:59, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

As Pete Townshend is apparently "a Who", I suppose Matt Johnson is a The. Makes perfect sense to me. Joefromrandb (talk) 16:12, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

@Binksternet: It's not your fault. It's the underhanded manner in which this nonsense has been attempted, but this has nothing to do with "running prose". Joefromrandb (talk) 05:07, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

@Joefromrandb: Can you not see the inconsistency when several guidelines all agree that "the" in band names should not be capitalised yet another says capitalising "may be preferred" (without any further explanation)? Forget the ego and concentrate on the issue. —sroc 💬 05:20, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

No, I can not. This is not about running prose. Joefromrandb (talk) 05:35, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Actually, the example is running prose: "A number of groups increasingly showed blues influences, among them The Rolling Stones, The Animals and The Yardbirds." But why should that be an exception anyway? —sroc 💬 05:41, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

That goes to show the underhanded manner in which this RfC has been undertaken. And you are likely correct that only ego could be responsible for attempting to force such a bizarre and awkward convention on Misplaced Pages and its readers. Joefromrandb (talk) 05:47, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

I never said that. My point is that this RfC is about correcting an inconsistency, not about the ego of the initial editor. If anything, it is your ego that is getting in the way of addressing the issue at hand, which is: why should there be such an inconsistency in the guidelines. You have failed to explain this rationally, instead attacking the individual. —sroc 💬 06:00, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

If you take a moment to trace this disagreement back to its genesis, you will see that it was in fact the individual who attacked me. There is no inconsistency. Only the inability (or more likely unwillingness) of the initiator to understand that lists are not running prose. Joefromrandb (talk) 08:11, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

For a good example of the foolishness this creates, see the info box at "The Quarrymen". "Associated acts" says "The Les Stewart Quartet, the Blackjacks, the Beatles". The Blackjacks appearing as "the Blackjacks" looks silly enough, but The Beatles appear as "the Beatles" underneath the first two entries. If we're going with the nonsense that "lists and sentences are the same", this is akin to beginning a sentence with "the Beatles".Joefromrandb (talk) 16:38, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

@Joefromrandb: I have no interest in the background between you and GabeMc. I am concerned with the obvious inconsistency in the Misplaced Pages guidelines as outlined in the original post of this section. It hardly bears repeating since Gabe has summarised the problem succinctly, but essentially the issue is that MOS:MUSIC#Names (definite article) (which says capitalising "the" at the start of band names is "optional") contradicts various other MOS guidelines. This needs to be addressed through rational arguments, not personal bickering or attacks between editors.

As for whether the guidelines for lists "looks silly", that's a subjective view. Feel free to lobby for change to MOS:LIST#Horizontal lists; as it is, that's the style we should uniformly follow. No, it's not "akin to beginning a sentence with 'the Beatles'", as sentences always begin with a capital letter, obviously. As already noted, there has been extensive discussion on whether or not to capitalise "the Beatles" so that debate is long over. Please do not be bitter just because the consensus does not favour your personal views. —sroc 💬 23:21, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

If you "have no interest in the background" then don't make yourself look foolish by taking sides. Joefromrandb (talk) 01:09, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm not taking sides. I'm stating my view of the issue at hand. —sroc 💬 02:11, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

I can in a sense understand why some people have more difficulty accepting the Who. However, it is a punctuation house style. A recent book on the Who, with an introduction by Daltrey, also uses lower case "the": Anyway Anyhow Anywhere. SilkTork 07:04, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Slightly off-topic note

I'm neutral to the discussion above. But I just wanted to request that whoever closes this please drop a note at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Comics. I think this discussion directly affects WP:NCC. Needless to say, musical groups, in naming and membership, have had an indirect and a direct effect on groups of characters in comics. (And this without going into the fact that T/t-he Beatles have appeared in comics and animation. - jc37 21:33, 24 August 2013 (UTC)