Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 04:55, 17 October 2013

Previous talk archived

I've archived the rest of the talk section here if anyone needs to access previous discussions. As my account has come under question and I take this matter very seriously, I am leaving the timely and current issue to the top as that is all that is relevant at this time. The Tumbleman (talk) 02:16, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

WP:Sockpuppet_investigations/Tumbleman

Regarding this investigation, it does seem odd that you mentioned you'd be taking 2 days away from editing the Rupert Sheldrake page, then a suspected sock with a Palm Springs IP address appears using similar turns of phrase. I could be mistaken. However one thing that might help establish the two accounts are not connected would be if you would comment here at the same time the suspected sockpuppet is active. Regards. LuckyLouie (talk) 17:01, 13 October 2013 (UTC) My apologies for suggesting that two accounts being active at the same time would help establish that they weren't connected. This was an error on my part due to my unfamiliarity with Checkuser functions. LuckyLouie (talk) 17:18, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

• Please read the above carefully. I have not "retracted" my suspicions that you may have sockpuppeted using multiple accounts. I have only retracted my advice that you try posting while the other account was active. Please do not misrepresent my comments, thanks. LuckyLouie (talk) 18:04, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

I've just blocked you for one week for inappropriately using multiple accounts per the findings of Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Tumbleman. Mark Arsten (talk) 20:24, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Really? LuckyLouie (talk), it's strange is it? I decide to take a day or two off from editing, completely self imposed, so I decide to create a sockpuppet so I can post while I take a break from my other account? For what purpose would I even need to do this? If I wanted to make an argument, I would as tumbleman. as you can see I also do not need any help or need any sockpuppets because I already have support on the talk page. You and your group of skeptic pals have harassed me enough and should be ashamed of what you are doing to Misplaced Pages. We are not a soapbox for your ideological agenda. The Tumbleman (talk) 00:16, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

LuckyLouie (talk) thank you for stating that, I appreciate it. Can you also state this on the Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Tumbleman as well? The Tumbleman (talk) 17:34, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

LuckyLouie (talk), Mark Arsten (talk) - This is completely inappropriate. This is the FOURTH time these skeptical agenda editors have tried to remove me from the page for fabricated reasons. Every single time they have failed and this will be no different. I am NOT any of those two accounts, I do NOT live in Palm Springs. I am NOT a troll or have been trolling. I am NOT disruptive to the page. I am requesting these be IMMEDIATELY removed and I have no choice but to report this hounding to an administrator. Since I have arrived, they have exposed my identity, tried to scrutinize my account and claim I am running WP NOT, and then they try to get me banned for pushing 'conspiracy' theories and being a 'fringe' believer - all of which are completely ridiculous and not in the spirit of why I am here. Then they edit war and put a notice on my page for edit warring! Anyone can view the talk section of sheldrake to see what kind of an editor I am. The Tumbleman (talk) 23:02, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Tumbleman is not user: KateGombert. User KateGombert also has no activity on the sheldrake page, I can't find anything she has even done in talk or any edit. Suggestion: (talk) Mark Arsten, Reaper Eternal, JamesBWatson Why not unblock that account, reach out to her, and ask her to post something the same time I am online? The Tumbleman (talk) 13:57, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Because doing so would prove nothing. If I wanted to, I could very easily set up a new account and edit from both accounts within seconds of one another. I could even do it with different computers, working on different IP addresses, using different operating systems, and different web browsers if I took a little trouble. If I took a little more trouble, by using a proxy I could make the two IP addresses geolocate to different continents. If anything, if she responded to a request to edit while you were online, it would look rather suspicious: has she been sitting at a computer for hours, repeatedly checking to see when you are online? Or is she in close contact with you, so that she knows when you are online? JamesBWatson (talk) 17:25, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

JamesBWatson (talk) Well I am just trying to come up with a rational way to prove I am not KateGombert because I am not Kate Gombert. Under the conditions you set above, I guess everyone here can be a sockpuppet too. Although all of this evidence is circumstantial, and @Reaper Eternal: Reaper Eternal already says that WP's server logs support my story, and I am willing to be completely transparent in this 'investigation', I guess I'm just a victim of WP's process, I just have to be guilty because a few editors were suspicious I was. I accept if this is the best WP can do. But it has damaged my credibility on the page where i was incredibly active and had a strong and influential voice. I also was in the middle of an RfC process which I now cannot assist in. I've been working on that page for a month so it's hard when good work goes to waste, I hope you understand my position, I don't see how this decision has helped Misplaced Pages or helped make the page I was working on better. Thanks for giving this your attention.The Tumbleman (talk) 18:25, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I do understand your position, and I am now much more willing to believe that you may be an unfortunate victim of the ways that Misplaced Pages works than I was when I declined an unblock request from you. In fact, I would carefully consider whether to give you the benefit of the doubt and unblock you anyway, if it were not for the fact that Reaper Eternal is dealing with the case, and having access to checkuser information that I can't see, is in a better position than I am to make an appropriate decision. My comment above was not meant to be a dismissal of your case, it was just meant to explain why the suggested method would not be helpful. It is a very unfortunate fact that there is absolutely no certain way of telling whether an account is a sockpuppet or not. We have to rely on making judgements as to what seems most likely in view of the available evidence, and sometimes what seems most likely is in fact false. If "KateGombert" is the "professional" that you allowed to use your account, then you may have unfortunately been trapped by the consequences of an action which you did with innocent intention, not knowing that it (a) was contrary to Misplaced Pages policy, and (b) might lead to the situation that now exists. However, even if that is the case, and you are innocent of sockpuppetry, there is still a large question of tendentious editing, so if you are eventually unblocked then you would be well advised to think very carefully about how you edit in the future. JamesBWatson (talk) 18:56, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

JamesBWatson (talk)James thank you for your reasoned response. I would much rather defend any charge of TE, at least the case is clear. Thanks for your service to WP, at the end of the day, we all want to make this a better place. The Tumbleman (talk) 21:44, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

@Reaper Eternal: Reaper Eternal (talk) Mark Arsten (talk) asked me to contact you directly. I am sorry but you, Mark, and I are being WP GAMED right now by a group of co-ordinating ideological skeptics on the Rupert Sheldrake TALK page. This is the fourth time they have attempted to have me removed from the page, every one has failed so far. The last case I won and now the admins from that case have requested that I submit a detailed summary of their disruptive behaviors on the board, of which I can assure you this will be one of them. I am NOT a sock puppet, and do not know those accounts nor do I even live in Palm Springs. I am willing to share with you my IP address I post from one computer and you can see from my IP I only have one account. I want this removed immediately. I am shocked I was not even allowed to defend myself and even more shocked that I have been banned from all of WP. The Tumbleman (talk) 00:09, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry I ever got involved in this. I am not Tumbleman. I'm outski.Oh boy chicken again (talk) 00:19, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing this up Oh boy chicken again, but I don't think they assume you are me anymore, right now the confusion is because of a user KateGombert, who also is not me. I'm letting @Reaper Eternal: Reaper Eternal know you posted this however. Thanks again. dont be too turned off, that's the problem, agenda based editors are running good editors off the page and a NPOV needs all the help it can get. The Tumbleman (talk) 00:33, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

{{unblock reviewed|1= Request a second independent opinion. I am requesting an unblock. I am not sockpuppetting, but now understand how it may have appeared this way. I did have someone use my PW and sign in to my account for a period of 6 hours last week to help me with references in my sandbox only. First opinion stated that because of this, there is no way to tell who now owns the account. I request a second opinion based on the following.

1.) Person who signed into my account was concerned that the bad behaviors on the Sheldrake page would come to their account, like has come to mine and did so to protect their account.

2.)My account PW was changed since then and I am the only person who has access to my account.

3.) Providing evidence that this is the case that I am the sole owner is easy, as this account is directly linked to my personal email address with my personal name. I can be emailed with a reference code by any admin and can then post this to my talk section for verification.

4.)I am in the middle of an RfC review of the page in question and have been requested by an admin to directly make my case regarding the bad behaviors on the page. I cannot make that case now because I have been banned.

5.)I believe I am protecting the interests of WP in doing so and this banning is preventing me from doing so.

6.)LuckyLouie has just posted an apology on my talk page about making a connection between me and another account and has retracted his original claim.

7.)The issue of KateGombert is what is now making this an issue and I am not KateGombert, it appears my only mistake is asking a third party to help me build strong references in my sandbox, and her reasons for using my PW to do so are reasonable, I am asking that this be considered. I am only trying to make the page better and protect WP. What can I do to have this properly addressed? Any advice to this editor appreciated. The Tumbleman (talk) 17:51, 14 October 2013 (UTC)|decline=Without considering the sockpuppetry allegation, which can remain on file, as you have admitted here to allowing someone else access to your password your account is

Tumbleman (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

I am NOT those accounts - this is the 4th time editors on the sheldrake page have tried to get me banned. I am NOT SOCK PUPPETTING. They have been WP HOUNDING me and this is unacceptable. I ask for this banned to be removed immediately. I will share my IP address with any admin for proof

Decline reason:

While there is no unambiguous smoking gun, there are several pieces of evidence which all point to KateGompert being a sockpuppet of yours. The coincidence of those several pieces of evidence all happening to point in exactly the same direction is enough to make it far more than probable enough to justify the block. (Also, I see no evidence of hounding.) JamesBWatson (talk) 09:31, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Tumbleman (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

Request for other independent opinions. User Tumbleman is not user KateGombert or any other user. The only reason I can think why my IP was showing up for another may have been because a few weeks ago I requested a professional to help me with my sandbox and for a day or two I shared my account PW with this professional so they could make changes in my sandbox regarding my references at their office. I only requested them to use my account and no other. I asked for help regarding references because I wanted to make sure I am editing with proper WP protocols regarding references and needed help. This professional works in public relations in an office setting so it is likely their office has WP activity since they do online public relations and outreach support for many social sites in general. IP logs should show if this is the case and if it is, it would only have been for a day or two and the log activity will show that they were active only on my talk page. Suggestion. Why not unblock that account, reach out to her, and ask her to post something the same time I am online? Also, the accounts mentioned that they are claiming I am using to sock puppet they have done no editing and I cannot even find any activity on KateGomber on the Sheldrake page nor do I see any evidence of any of these 'sockpuppet' accounts disrupting the actual Sheldrake page, I have seen no editing nor voting on these accounts. My presence on the Rupert Sheldrake page is critical, I have devoted myself to help make the page better towards a more NPOV and I take WP guidelines and policy very seriously. There is plenty of evidence of bad behavior on that page and I am here to help clean it up. I am also currently involved in an ANI case for RfC and have been requested to make my case regarding the bad behaviors on the Sheldrake page. I was supposed to present this information today and cannot now because I am blocked. I apologize if my earlier request sounded too emotional. It was upsetting to me to find this happen, please help keep this editor straight where relevant. Thank you.

Decline reason:

Unfortunately, sharing your password means that this account is now compromised and cannot be unblocked. If two people have access to an account, we don't know who is which. Any edits to your sandbox that you authorised should have been made by the other party on their account. Peridon (talk) 16:52, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Actually, this explanation, as surprising as it sounds, does fit with the checkuser data available, and it is on that IP that he is  Technically indistinguishable from KateGompert (talk · contribs) and several other clearly unrelated (by behaviour) users. I can also say that were it not for those sandbox edits, I would have said  Unrelated; the computers are completely different. Recent edits technically match what Tumbleman used to be, so he does appear to still have control of his account. Please change your password immediately to prevent this account from being compromised. Please let us know when you have done so, so this account can be unblocked. Thanks, and please don't share your password with anybody, even a Misplaced Pages administrator. Reaper Eternal (talk) 17:49, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

That does however raise an entirely different can of worms of a sock farm of editors from a PR firm! -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:56, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Reaper Eternal (talk), confirming the PW has just been changed. I am also on standby to provide any other independent confirmation you need. Thank you for giving this your attention. The Tumbleman (talk) 18:04, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

If you don't mind, could you email me which Misplaced Pages user / professional group to whom you submitted your password? For security purposes, please do not email me any private information. Thanks! Reaper Eternal (talk) 18:30, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Reaper Eternal (talk) I don't have your email address nor do I know how to contact you privately that way, can you advise? The Tumbleman (talk) 18:55, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

you can use any of the free services like g-mail or hotmail to create a temporary account for this purpose. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:58, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

That wouldn't give him my email. Just use Special:EmailUser/Reaper Eternal. Reaper Eternal (talk) 18:59, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Okay Reaper Eternal (talk) , I emailed you and you can respond there regarding how you would like to proceed. The Tumbleman (talk) 20:34, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom I request that you do not comment on this issue as I do not believe you are a neutral party. I never requested this person to 'create an account', they simply wanted to use my account and not theirs because they were afraid that the editors on the page with poor behavior would come after their account for helping tumbleman, and I agree with that decision. However, I do work in media and technology, and many companies do have to manage or create accounts, usually for the purposes of compliancy, and they all do so transparently or within what ever TOS a platform has. There is nothing alarming happening with that, it's standard practice and occurs on any large platform online. The Tumbleman (talk) 18:04, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

"they all do so transparently or within what ever TOS" LOLZ!

Oh, thats a good one! You have shown right here that they don't. The have violated Misplaced Pages's TOS by using someone elses account so that their own actions would not be noticed. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:16, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Kate Gompert's only edit was to support a comment by Tumbleman? . I think WP:DUCK indicates socking, or in the least, WP:MEAT. LuckyLouie (talk) 18:19, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

KateGompert has nothing to do with my request to a professional to help me with references and compliancy. There is a reasonable concern that people have regarding privacy on Misplaced Pages, including creating more than one account, and this is covered in WP:ANONYMOUS especially when editors behaviors on the page clearly show WP:OUTING, Hounding and harassment. I accept that will happen to Tumbleman because Tumbleman is vocal on the page regarding these editors behaviors. My friend's concerns were justified, and, as evidence shows, was correct. The Tumbleman (talk) 19:21, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Actually, you outed yourself. The diff still exists I believe. Some of us know who you are anyway. --Roxy the dog (quack quack) 19:43, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Well I suppose it's possible that someone who works in the same office that you do shares exactly the same opinions and "concerns" that you do and posts just one post to support something you said on a Talk page that she just happened to find on her own. In my opinion, it's more likely WP:SOCK or WP:MEAT. LuckyLouie (talk) 19:29, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

I am requesting that LuckyLouie (talk), Roxy the dog (quack quack), TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom and any other editor I have crossed paths with on the Sheldrake page to please stop commenting on my talk page, it just feels like you are harassing me and it's made me quite uncomfortable. This issue is now between myself and Misplaced Pages. I understand you want me removed from the Sheldrake page, that has been clear since I got there, but I believe you are WP Gaming WP to harass me and we can address this when I make my proper case to ANI regarding your behaviors. Until then, I ask for respect to my privacy and that you stop harassing me on this issue on my talk page. The Tumbleman (talk) 19:53, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

@TheRedPenOfDoom: TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom Again, please do not message me, ping me, post on my talk page, or engage with me in any other way unless it's to build a rational consensus on the Sheldrake talk page and any attempt to do so will just be considered further harassment. The Tumbleman (talk) 20:19, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Hello, I'm TheRedPenOfDoom. I noticed that you made a comment on the page User talk:Tumbleman that didn't seem very civil, so you have been asked to remove it or provide evidence to support your claims. Misplaced Pages needs people like you and me to collaborate, so it's one of our core principles to interact with one another in a polite and respectful manner. If you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:22, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom This is clearly in violation of my request. Regarding your request, to provide evidence of my claims, I am happily preparing that now and will address directly in ANI, where you will be able to respond. Again, I request that you do not harass or message me further regarding this issue. The Tumbleman (talk) 20:28, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

WP Guidelines interesting to Tumbleman case

WP:HUSH

Placing numerous false or questionable "warnings" on a user's talk page, restoring such comments after a user has removed them, placing "suspected sockpuppet" and similar tags on the user page of active contributors, and otherwise trying to display material the user may find annoying or embarrassing in their user space is a common form of harassment.

User pages are provided so that editors can provide some general information about themselves and user talk pages are to facilitate communication. Neither is intended as a 'wall of shame' and should not be used to display supposed problems with the user unless the account has been blocked as a result of those issues. Any sort of content which truly needs to be displayed, or removed, should be immediately brought to the attention of admins rather than edit warring to enforce your views on the content of someone else's user space.

WP:WRW

Misplaced Pages is highly visible in the Internet; any Google or other search engine search on a subject for which Misplaced Pages has an article is likely to display that article on the first page of results, and quite likely as the first or second result returned. If you edit that article, then anyone who is interested in the subject is going to be able to see what you wrote. They will also be able to track your activity across the site, in project and user pages as well as in articles. So anything you say here and anything you do here can have real world consequences. Consider carefully what you write; keep in mind that you (and other people) can get hurt.

WP:ANONYMOUS

As an editor on Misplaced Pages, you have a choice: You can let everyone know who you are. Or you can make your edits while hiding your true identity and keeping to yourself.

Remaining anonymous is your right. But there are ways in which your identity can be revealed, even if you do not wish.

For example, if you are so proud of an article you created that you tell people you know in person, they may read the article, and from looking at your contributions, they can then learn what else you did on Misplaced Pages. It is very possible that you do not wish for these people (who could be your relatives, friends, or even your boss) to know about other edits you have previously made or that you plan to make in the future. So before you go and brag, you may wish to be aware of this.

You may also get to "know" other editors on Misplaced Pages (without knowing their true identities) if you work on a project or on many articles within a common area. These are people you may end up in deep discussions with. You may not want them to know about your other areas of interest.

Hiding such edits from your edit history is a legitimate use for having a second account.

WP:HOUND

Wikihounding is the singling out of one or more editors, and joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor. Wikihounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Misplaced Pages.

Many users track other users' edits, although usually for collegial or administrative purposes. This should always be done carefully, and with good cause, to avoid raising the suspicion that an editor's contributions are being followed to cause them distress, or out of revenge for a perceived slight. Correct use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing unambiguous errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles. In fact, such practices are recommended both for Recent changes patrol and WikiProject Spam. The contribution logs can be used in the dispute resolution process to gather evidence to be presented in requests for comment, mediation, WP:ANI, and arbitration cases. Using dispute resolution can itself constitute hounding if it involves persistently making frivolous or poorly-based complaints about another editor.

The important component of wikihounding is disruption to another user's own enjoyment of editing, or to the project generally, for no overriding reason. If "following another user around" is accompanied by tendentiousness, personal attacks, or other disruptive behavior, it may become a very serious matter and could result in blocks and other editing restrictions.

The Tumbleman (talk) 20:49, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Tumbleman is being accused, and I wont use the 'L' word, in a manner which he cannot defend himself

Liz , Reaper Eternal (talk) , Mark Arsten (talk), I would truly like to thank all of the attention you have given me on this issue but to be honest, I am embarrassed anyone should even have to waste their good time on this. It's very uncomfortable to me and I am sorry if this is not the appropriate way to address - but as you can know, my account is banned, and there is a 'investigation' happening about Tumbleman and there are lists of accusations, many of which extend beyond even the scope of this issue, claiming I am some sort of global sock puppeting mastermind. (oddly enough the previous hearing to get me banned was because I was talking about 'conspiracy' theories on the talk page, irony never stops) here

I am blocked, and find myself in a position where I cannot even defend myself against these claims. Truly that is frustrating, abusive even. Specifically, when i saw this I felt something had to be said because these people LuckyLouie (talk), Roxy the dog (quack quack) , TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom, Barney the barney barney (talk), vzaak (talk), IRWolfie- (talk) appear very set on damaging my reputation for the sake of their editing decisions and that's not how I understand the spirit of wikipedia to be.

Specifically, vzaak (talk) says, and I quote As that long list of links in the previous point may already indicate, Tumbleman is an antisocial individual on the Internet. This I find personally slanderous, and contrary of course to not only those links, but who I am at all. Is it common for editors to offer their own psychological evaluations of other editors as proof of their removal? Additionally, I am also perplexed as to links from a *personal* project I did in 2005 has absolutely anything to do with the Sheldrake page?

I don't mind being transparent, it's a big part of who I am - and not that I should even have to defend a personal project of mine from 7 or 8 years ago, I don't mind sharing the details if it clears up any confusion. The project vzaak is linking to is

1.) A personal project, both highly creative in nature, tongue in cheek, and also entirely non offensive, funny even. Haven't done anything with that since 2006 I believe. It evolved from a bunch of people discussing going to war, or not - in Iraq in 2003 and we all began to notice a pattern with certain types of individuals online when they would engage with discussion and the os 012 meme started organically. I became intrigued and adopted the mantel and carried the torch, but many others were involved. I just found myself in the middle of it and went with it. Sort of a spontaneous nutty project. I work in media/tech now but my background then was primarily creative and artistic.

2.) Although very creative in nature, I was testing and developing a process for consensus building, and did need to test the principle in live discussion, hence the reference.

3.) So I would start a discussion on a few chosen forums to test the principles and would encourage users to falsify the principles in the debate. The discussions actually were extraordinarily popular on every forum I did them, one of them lasting over 9 months 3 years.

4.) I was never trolling, or sock puppeting, however was accused of that often, much like i am here, when certain online users became frustrated in debate. I do admit to being funny and over the top with my personality, that was part of the fun, especially when people finally got the joke.

5.) When I joined WP back then, I did try to start a page around this project, but didnt know how WP worked and it was deleted for not being notable, which of course I see and accept. That was 7 years ago.

6.) Who cares?

Should I have to defend this? No, I shouldn't. Do I care if people know about this? No, but I assume who would even care. I am a professional in my field, and even gave one of the most popular TEDx talks in the world on the evolution of collective editing and collective intelligence, using WP as an example - so when I see disgruntled editors be more concerned confused about what I did 8 years ago and use that to ban me from a page where it is very clear they are punishing me for them being frustrated by my arguments, it makes me personally upset and violated.

These users will never be satisfied with whatever decision is made about me. It does appear that I do have some gentle admin support even, and they will even attack the admin if the admin defends me, just like they do editors on the page who do. Today one of the users who was accused of being my sockpuppet came back to clear things up. It didn't matter, first response to that from TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom was more suspicion because I responded to him 15 minutes after he posted. Funny thing is I was actually going to respond the very second after he posted because I was on WP at the time. I told myself when i saw the message light come that i should probably wait to respond a bit because if I responded right away, they would claim that was evidence of sockpuppeting. Truly, the irony never ends.

They have completely destroyed my credibility on the Sheldrake page, have prevented me from moving forward with the RfC hearing request where I was to make a case against their behaviors, and I believe will never stop hounding me, even if I leave so I need to take steps to protect myself here but at least need to defend myself and this is the only way. Irony has it that the person who has been trying to build consensus, stick to a NPOV and provide transparency is the one who is banned for what now appears to be nothing more harmless than have someone help me build stronger references in my sandbox while numerous editors with bad behaviors are having a field day stamping on my reputation and turning off other editors to the page as well. Well that just really makes me want to make the page better MORE.

WP can do better than this, and who cares who Tumbleman is? The Tumbleman (talk) 03:38, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't know what their angle is beyond trying to silence you on this particular article. The detail some Editors have devoted to this sock investigation is definitely over-kill and I am a bit stunned at the apparent time and energy spent on compiling "evidence" and the minute dissection of how you phrase things and spell words.

Truthfully, I think most people would let themselves be driven off by this barrage of negativity. But I hope you don't go. I didn't agree with you on some issues but Misplaced Pages needs all types of voices and perspectives to balance out their coverage. Liz 04:51, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Liz thank you for the supportive words, truly. I waited more than 30 minutes to respond to you here just in case it would have been used as evidence of more sock puppetry :) I do plan on staying! The Tumbleman (talk) 05:40, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Please don't highlight me again, thanks, IRWolfie- (talk) 08:46, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

IRWolfie- (talk)Unlikely as you are quite active in silencing my voice on the page and are still in the process of making bizarre claims that i am some sockpuppet mastermind. I would imagine your name will be coming up quite a bit so don't be shocked when I post it again in relationship to my case or anything on the Sheldrake page. The Tumbleman (talk) 14:02, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't wish to be notified about the Panto going on here. If you notify me again I will request that your talk page access be removed, IRWolfie- (talk)

Do as you will, IRWolfie- (talk) - you're being notified because I am discussing your actions in the only forum I am allowed to defend myself against steps you're taking regarding tumbleman. If you don't want to be notified, it's probably better then to remove yourself from anything to do with Tumbleman. My policy is to always notify an editor when they are being discussed and I see no reason to suspend that. I actually would appreciate if you did the same in return. Apparently you're quite vocal about Tumbleman, I appreciate the notification when editors discuss my account. The Tumbleman (talk) 14:30, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Liz , Reaper Eternal (talk) , Mark Arsten (talk) - In consideration of Liz's comment, I request admins to consider if this action is actually making the page any better. Admin Tom Morris has wisely placed a 3 day edit ban on the page and has invited consensus arguments in TALK. I believe that my participation in those talks are valuable in making the page better. However, my ban is scheduled to be removed on Sunday, and this technicality is preventing my participation. Other than naively getting help from an experienced WP editor in my sandbox, my case appears to be held up on a technicality. I am hoping that WP admins can be 'bold' here and allow a highly motivated, well reasoned and neutral editor to participate. If a technicality is preventing from making the page better, let's remove that technicality! The Tumbleman (talk) 14:25, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

@Tom Morris: Thank you for for your action on the Sheldrake page. I support it. I was a very strong voice on that page and I do want to continue to participate. I am requesting however you extend the days. As you may gather from just reading a little bit above, a number of editors on the page have fabricated a case against me and I have been banned for one week for sockpuppetry, which I am innocent. Although I appear to have admin support, and admins involved say they are likely to believe me, and Reaper Eternal (talk) has even said he will remove the ban (not sure why he hasn't yet) - my voice is still silenced on the page and I will not be able to participate in the consensus edit you have wisely enforced. I believe my presence in that process will be valuable to the page. This editor appreciates any advice you can give. How can I help? The Tumbleman (talk) 13:53, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

@Reaper Eternal: Good morning. You mentioned you would remove the ban and requested I email you with certain information. I have not heard back from you on this. Tom Morris (talk) has placed an edit ban on the Sheldrake page for three days and admins are going to compile consensus arguments. I believe it is necessary I participate in that process and I believe I am a valued voice in making the page better. Can we expedite this process so I can participate? The Tumbleman (talk) 13:57, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the information wasn't helpful in determining whether this was account sharing (unacceptable, but understandable) or sockpuppetry (simply unacceptable). The actions of the suspected sockpuppet look like a sockpuppet. However, Tumbleman might be telling the truth. I can confirm that his account is not compromised now, and he claims to have changed his password, so I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and unblock him, on the condition that there be no more account sharing and no more sockpuppetry, with the understanding that if I find either again, I will block you indefinitely. The former violates Misplaced Pages's copyright and is bad for your account's security (the person could change your password and take control of your account), and the latter is deceptive. Obviously, that is if and only if the arbitration enforcement decides you aren't merely trolling, something I am strongly suspecting is the case. Reaper Eternal (talk) 02:23, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Reaper Eternal (talk)Of course I will not share my PW again, that was naive and I was unaware of any policy against doing so. Naturally that will not happen again. Sockpuppetry is not nor has been on my agenda, I don't believe practicing deception is productive, and you have my assurance and integrity that will not be occurring from this editor.

I'm not worried about the arbitration case regarding me as a troll, I have my own contributions to the page in TALK to defend that and the integrity of my arguments, as long as I can defend myself. Can I at least be unblocked from that hearing? I assume if we are talking about banning someone for life from a platform they have been a supporter of, we would at least want it to be fair, yes? So how about this as a compromise. If you unblock me now, I promise only to defend myself in the hearing, participate in the consensus arguments on the Sheldrake page in my normal consensus building tone that is displayed consistently throughout the page, and if the hearing finds me a troll in a fair hearing, or you see me doing anything other than what i suggest here I accept that you will ban me indefinitely from WP. Does that sound fair? The Tumbleman (talk) 02:38, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Arbitration Enforcement

There is a thread at WP:AE which concerns you. IRWolfie- (talk) 14:43, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Statement from Tumbleman

IRWolfie- (talk), Barney the barney barney (talk). Touche' - this is quite a rich strategy, surely a result of an experienced and co-ordinated team. I now find myself being investigated in not one, but two arbitration hearings, neither of which I am even able to defend myself in. As much as I do not appreciate the negativity as I believe it clearly violates the spirit and guidelines of WP and contrary to what I would expect, I do compliment an online strategy that games the system. As a professional in my field, which includes viral and social media, I'm always intrigued by the 'black hat' players. Even though their ethics usually suck - they can be clever at revealing flaws in a platform and can be quite helpful in discovery of new applications that can be used for more ethical purposes.

Admittedly I am still puzzled how the fabrication of the sockpuppeting charge to ban me was helping to make the Sheldrake page a better one, but entirely perplexed how banning me from defending myself against defamatory attacks contributes to making the Sheldrake page better either. It appears the only thing these behaviors has accomplished is silencing my reasoned arguments written in the spirit of consensus and neutrality and denying WP a quality voice.

Furthermore - it's even more odd that IRWolfie- (talk) would notify me on my talk page while trying to get me banned from defending myself on my talk page. I'm also perplexed how this behavior is in any way related to the spirit of WP. None of these behaviors address a number of my reasoned arguments on the Sheldake talk page, of which received considerable support from the community.

Amazingly - IRWolfie- (talk)complaint seems to stem from the fact that the editor does not want to be notified when I am defending myself against factually incorrect and defamatory claims he is making in cases against me.

I've already covered why disclosing a personal project I did in 2006 should be put in a category called 'Who Cares?' and 'This has to do with the Sheldrake page because?'

All I ask is any interested investigator in Misplaced Pages simply look at the Rupert Sheldrake Talk Page, view my behaviors and commentary, look at the very small number of edits I did to the page, look at my sandbox, and judge Tumbleman on his contributions, not the 'tumbleman' in the minds of what appear to be very biased editors operating with an ideological agenda. One may even add to note - if they can view Tumbleman this way, imagine the bias they are applying to a BLP, where the actual person is now publically talking about defamation and many bloggers are now covering this issue. Perhaps you will understand my motivations - I believe I am protecting WP and this sort of activity is bad for the public perception of collective editing at large. As a professional in my field, of which includes being a thought leader in collective editing platforms, I believe I am highly qualified to make this statement. The Tumbleman (talk) 16:45, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Response to James Watson inquiry in ARB

JamesBWatson (talk) asks in the current arb case:

Do you have any grounds for that belief in bad faith on the part of other editors? JamesBWatson (talk) 17:03, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

You addressed this in the current arb case with Liz. Liz has familiarity with the actual TALK page but I am actually in the process of actually building a concise case so I request you look at that when I am finished. I was preparing that for the other arb case in which it was requested of me but I have been so busy with defending myself from these charges. When I provide them, can you assure me you will review them with impartiality? The Tumbleman (talk) 18:52, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Response to MastCell

MastCell  thank you for giving this your attention. I was told I could respond and defend myself here. I would like to clear up each and everything you claim here and please let me know if you have any further questions.

It's important to understand that technical findings from the checkuser tool need to be interpreted in the context of behavioral evidence, not in isolation. In this case, the combination of technical data from checkuser with behavioral evidence is more than sufficient to view this as a case of abusive sockpuppetry, and I agree with User:Mark Arsten's handling of the sockpuppet investigation.

Actually User:Mark Arsten was very helpful and considerate, and we exchanged a few emails. He even said he was sorry if there was any misunderstanding. He asked me to inquire with User: Reaper Eternal who did the checkuser. User Reaper Eternal said that as unlikely as my story sounded (not sure why it was so unlikely) the IP logs actually confirmed it and he said he would remove the ban once I confirmed I had changed my PW. I also had a private email exchange with him which included a note from 'KateGombert'. I have not received a response from that but I believe the record shows I am willing to be transparent to clear up this issue. The facts simply are that I am not user KateGombert, am willing to do what ever is necessary to prove this, and user Oh Boy chicken has already confirmed he is another user. So it is very unclear to me how the sock puppetry is an open and shut case. Especially since the argument is based on 'sheldrake' in lower case. As a media and technology professional, I can point out that if any user posts from a mobile device, often those mobile devices, depending on the OS - are clumsy with capitalization, and users often have typos and no caps where appropriate. As to these 'accounts' supporting Tumbleman, well so what? So have other accounts in the TALK section. I have been a strong voice. I have created a proper argument that is well reasoned and the language I use is very clear for the sole purpose that other editors can have a contextual framework to make their own arguments.

In my view, there is more than enough evidence here to impose discretionary sanctions on Tumbleman (talk · contribs). Leaving aside the abuse of multiple accounts (which is probably sufficient in and of itself), there's an issue here which could be described as WP:COMPETENCE (charitably) or intentional trolling (less charitably). The overall impact of Tumbleman and associated accounts on the topic area has clearly been disruptive. I would favor an indefinite topic ban from topics connected with pseudoscience/fringe science, broadly construed, to be reviewed at Tumbleman's request should he develop evidence of constructive editing in other topic areas.

I find this claim perplexing. Yes I have a strong voice on the page. Yes many editors are frustrated with my arguments. Yes I am adept at framing arguments, it's a big part of what I do. Might I ask you to simply just review the Sheldrake TALK page, highlight specifically the behavior that you believe I violated, and address that specifically? Also, would you mind actually looking at the history of the page, you can see that disruption has been happening for quite some time. I request you review based on my actual language and behaviors on the page, not the interpretation frustrated editors have regarding it. That seems like a reasonable request, yes?

I would propose to hold off on imposing any sanction until Tumbleman's current sockpuppetry block expires and he is able to participate here. I'd also like to hear the views of other uninvolved admins, as a sanity check, before proceeding with any sort of sanction.

Well I would like to propose we do this now. I want to clear my name and I take this very seriously. In addition, the page in question has a three day review for consensus building arguments, of which now I am unable to participate in. I make these requests in the interests of wikipedia and making the page better.

Also, I am not a defender of 'fringe' topics and I have no 'fringe' agenda. I do not promote sheldrake's theories. My interest in Sheldrake extends to the controversy he has caused over the past 30 years, and the philosophical, not scientific, debate. I love this issue because I love philosophy, I'm not promoting psychic pets. I am a philosophical agnostic, meaning I don't claim to know one way or another. I have no ideological agenda other than that. I believe it was helpful to the page to present a POV that was 'in the middle' favoring neither one side nor the other, and I argue from a place of agnosticism. That may account for why some editors are frustrated, but as my word I only have one intention here, to represent the NPOV to the best of my ability to do so. The Tumbleman (talk) 19:22, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Misuse of talk page while blocked, and related issues

The main reason for leaving talk page access for an editor who is otherwise blocked from editing is to make it possible for the editor to request an unblock, and to take part in discussions relating to the block. You, however, have been using talk page access for inappropriate purposes, including continuing your attacks and accusations against other editors, and attempting to evade your block by proxy, by asking another editor to take particular action. Moreover, your persistent pinging of IRWolfie, deliberately in defiance of his/her requests for you not to do so, and in recent cases for no purpose whatever other than to announce that you intend to continue doing so, are clearly deliberate harassment and trolling. I would certainly have removed your talk page access for the duration of the block had it not been for the fact that an arbitration enforcement case concerning you has been opened, and I would prefer to allow you a chance to respond to what is said there, as long as it is open. If you have anything to say there, please post it on this page, with a request for it to be copied there. Nevertheless, if you misuse this talk page during your block again then I will remove talk page access. Also, if you continue your tendentious editing, battleground approach to other editors, attempts to use Misplaced Pages to promote a point of view, assumptions of bad faith, and other patterns of disruptive editing, either while the current block is in force or after it is over, you are likely to be blocked for much longer, quite possibly even indefinitely.

JamesBWatson (talk) 17:52, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

JamesBWatson (talk - I'm not seeing any evidence here of what you're suggesting - at all. I request you investigate the actual Rupert Sheldrake talk section. If you believe you have evidence of me sockpuppeting, or proxy IP, TE to the page, etc etc - let's address it. Any action i take on my talk page is in relationship to my banning directly. The Tumbleman (talk) 18:19, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Tumbleman Response to issue

Can any admin explain how posting someone's signature in response to actual posts, which include accusations that I find defamatory which they are making in my honor is somehow evidence of me WP Hounding them or trolling? I assume that when an editor addresses the commentary of another editor with their signature to alert them they are being mentioned is in the spirit of transparency and in good form. Am I mistaken here? Is it unreasonable for me to defend my account from accusations, especially if I believe them to be misleading and a result of editors gaming the system? I want to follow the guidelines, I am just unsure which guidelines I am violating. Right now i am terrified to do anything because apparently everything I do is suspect of some master plot. Advice is appreciated. The Tumbleman (talk) 18:52, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

I haven't commented until now (except to advise you to abandon your "social experiment" some weeks ago) so think of me as a fresh voice. Here is my advice:

• Stop trying to engage on why you were blocked. Justly or not you're only making things worse.
• Spend the duration of your block studying the policies linked from WP:List of policies, specifically the first two sections, Content and Behavior policies.
• After your block is over, (and not before -- give people a chance to cool off -- many are quite justifiably pissed at you) open a discussion here offering your best attempt to understand why you were blocked, and how you plan to avoid repeating that behavior.
  • There may also be other behaviors of yours which could have led to your block but didn't, only because once you were blocked there was no need to inquire further into that other behavior. You might want to comment on those too.
• There's an AE discussion going on right now about you which could lead to other restrictions on you. I can only suggest that you might try asking that that discussion be suspended while you carry out the meditation I've recommended above. But I don't know whether that's procedurally possible, or whether others will accept that suggestion.

Good luck, and I look forward to a "new" Tumbleman who takes fewer pratfalls. EEng (talk) 20:06, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

P.S. One other thing. Stop referring to yourself in the third person. I adds to the impression that you think this is some kind of game. I mean it. EEng (talk)

EEng (talk) I believe nested in your commentary here is wisdom I should consider, and thank you for any time at all. In regards to the 'social experiment' (not my words) I understand how my intention of being transparent about 'what' I personally get out of my activity here was poorly worded and naive. My intention was for editors to see that I am neutral and believe in collective editing as a problem solving tool, and my commitment to focus on one page. I was hoping it would have the affect of 'oh tumbleman is not a woo sheldrake supporter and has no agenda'. While true -My intention was misinterpreted and I thank you for bringing that to my attention, I do admit I can be a bit over dramatic and in this instance, this editor admits to putting his foot in his mouth. Thank you for your council. The Tumbleman (talk) 20:20, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

I read you loud and clear EEng (talk) - if i reference third person it's mainly because I am highlighting something on the account 'tumbleman'. I was not aware that would be a questionable issue, but duly noted and I will try to continue to reference myself in first person to clear up any confusion this may have caused. The Tumbleman (talk) 22:21, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

ANI as a tactic

Liz 22:02, 16 October 2013 (UTC) I really appreciate your clarity and voice, and I don't think I would have gotten this far with it, thank you. I actually agree a lot with your summary of the problem, that certain pages, like Sheldrakes, are actually addressing a bigger issue of what defines knowledge, and neutrality even and these are based on ideologies more than actual knowledge at this point. That's what draws me to this as well that issue and why I found Sheldrake's page and the problem accompanying it so interesting. I do want WP to take this challenge on, it's a very interesting problem for any collective editing platform to resolve - it has implications beyond just a BLP on WP.

I'm doing a lot of diligence here working on this, and I noted you mentioned this on your talk page " Sometimes, to the casual observer, it seems like AN, AN/I and ARBCOM are just a means for driving Editors who one disagrees with off of Misplaced Pages. And the more I dig into the ARBCOM case files, well, I see the same names come up again and again and again."

I think this might be relevant to my investigation, would you mind pointing me in this direction so I can compile this? The Tumbleman (talk) 04:51, 17 October 2013 (UTC)