Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 03:33, 19 October 2013

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I call upon the Wikimedia Foundation to issue clear rules to ensure that transgender people are treated with dignity

Misplaced Pages's article on Chelsea Manning has finally been moved to the name that Manning has stated is her name and the name that is used by most mainstream English language sources. This happened after much wrangling and resistance, which included moving the article back to Bradley, locking it there for 5 weeks, before finally moving it for the third time back to Chelsea. The process has provoked highly negative reactions in the real world. The case has demonstrated that the Wikimedia Foundation doesn't have policies in place that ensure that all living subjects of articles are treated with basic dignity and respect. The predominant view among those knowledgeable on the issue is that the refusal to recognise someone's gender identity and self-concept is immensely harmful to transgender people.

I call upon the Wikimedia Foundation as site owners to issue clear rules, as the foundation has done before, to ensure that transgender people are treated with dignity, in the spirit of its policy on biographies of living persons. The sooner this happens, the better. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:33, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

My god, just go away. You have done more to shoot in the foot the pro-Chelsea side of this whole affair than any of the other editors combined, and it is high time that the Arbcom case wraps up so you can be removed from this topic area permanently. Tarc (talk) 01:06, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

It's high time the Wikimedia Foundation stops editors like you from making these kind of comments. Josh Gorand (talk) 01:20, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps you should go back and actually read my comment you reverted from your talk page, genius. Tarc (talk) 02:02, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Tarc, your conduct in this matter has been reprehensible. Adding yet another personal attack (the sarcastic remark 'genius') is not helpful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:10, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I think given what happened, the subsequent ArbCom case and the imposed discretionary and general sanctions, this particular topic won't be a problem. Just like the climate change articles were no longer conflict areas after the ArbCom case on that subject. But you will still have similar issues on other topics. Count Iblis (talk) 01:31, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has a problem in that it doesn't have rules that ensure that transgender people are treated with basic human dignity and not misgendered in article titles. For many years, it was believed Misplaced Pages had a policy mandating that articles respect a person's latest expressed gender self-identification. But the Manning debate ended that policy. Therefore it is necessary that the Wikimedia Foundation, as publishers of Misplaced Pages, take the necessary steps to ensure that the principles contained in the biographies on living persons policy also apply to transgender people. Josh Gorand (talk) 01:39, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

It would be a start if the WMF took the necessary steps to ensure that the principles contained in the biographies on living persons policy applied to people. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:53, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

• Oh, for goodness sakes, ArbCom just wasted 1.5 million bytes of the community's prose on this very issue and the activist fringe still isn't satisfied. Then again, time is of the essence, since a topic ban is looming... Link Carrite (talk) 03:25, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

It is a mistake to read this as simply a transgender issue - the principle that should have governed this and other unrelated BLP cases exists only as a disregarded footnote (about something the WMF board once said) in WP:BLP. The policy itself once said Misplaced Pages articles should respect the basic human dignity of their subjects, but this was deleted in 2009 after a discussion involving four editors.

Timeline

• 2 July 2007 In the Badlydrawnjeff case, ArbCom enunciated the "Basic human dignity" principle: Implicit in the policy on biographies of living people is the understanding that Misplaced Pages articles should respect the basic human dignity of their subjects. Misplaced Pages aims to be a reputable encyclopedia, not a tabloid. Our articles must not serve primarily to mock or disparage their subjects, whether directly or indirectly. This is of particularly profound importance when dealing with individuals whose notability stems largely from their being victims of another's actions. Misplaced Pages editors must not act, intentionally or otherwise, in a way that amounts to participating in or prolonging the victimization.
• 24 July 2007 the principle was added to WP:BLP and reverted 11 minutes later with the edit summary, rv excess/redundant text ... Platitudes aside, what actual effect is that supposed to have on articles that is not already incorporated into this policy? and a brief talk page discussion among four editors.
• 9 January 2008 the principle was added back with edit summary, Inserting arcomm decision verbatim. See talk. If admins are supposed to enforce it, it should be in the publicly stated policy, and talk page comment, I've inserted the text of this Arbcom ruling into a new subsection. The Arbcom ruling made this de facto Misplaced Pages policy. For this reason, I believe it should be in the publicly-visible policy and available for community comment.
• 18 February 2009 Deleted with edit summary, merg Basic human dignity back into privacy section Reverted with edit summary, Undiscussed significant change of meaning; see talk page followed by a brief talk page discussion involving four editors, and final deletion.
• 15 June 2009 Talk page comments: Sorry to see that section has been removed. That seemed like a core principle to me. Dlohcierekim 02:28, 15 June 2009 (UTC) I heartily agree and think it was improperly removed by a single editor without much discussion - mostly opposing the removal. Smallbones (talk) 19:30, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

In April 2009, the Wikimedia Foundation published its resolution on BLPs that in part says we should take human dignity into account when adding or removing information. While most of that resolution is now unambiguously embodied in en.Misplaced Pages's policy, this point about human dignity is not. The nearest we come to it is "the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment." In the Manning naming dispute it was clear that a lot of editors exclude insulting or offending a person from their definition of "harm."

I think the current wording of WP:BLP deals well with blatant attacks but it doesn't cover demeaning, humiliating, insulting or other treatment that disregards our subjects' basic dignity. Though many editors here read into the policy (or the "spirit" of the policy) an obligation to take into account the dignity of the person concerned, without a clear expression of that obligation in the BLP policy those editors must, as was seen in this recent case, submit to editors who argue that we don't care about the feelings of our subjects and so trivial style regulations must always trump the dignity of our subjects.

This community needs to make an unambiguous statement as to whether it agrees with or repudiates the Arbitration Committee and WMF position that the dignity of our subjects should be taken into account in our editorial decision-making. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 05:06, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

That decision, which marked the precise moment at which Misplaced Pages editing began to decline, involved admonishing User:Badlydrawnjeff for attempting to create articles like Robyn Dawkins. The case is still described in our Babies switched at birth article, though I don't know how much was lost. It marked the beginning of an era of "BLP trumps everything", in which power shifted from those interested in putting things in to those interested in keeping things out - a perspective that makes politics wars and PR infiltration inevitable, because NPOV is stable when people share an ethos of including all the facts, but metastable when the situation is inverted.

What does "human dignity" mean? I think it must mean whatever you want it to. It's not a violation of human dignity, say, to propose Westgate shopping mall shooting for deletion because Misplaced Pages people think that major acts of terrorism aren't actually important if they're in Africa. But propose an edit or a fact that conflicts with somebody's politics... that's another matter. Wnt (talk) 06:48, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Obviously, editors who don't know what it means to take into account the dignity of our subjects should not involve themselves in such discussions. Editors who are confident they can recognise insulting, demeaning, humiliating or disrespectful treatment of a subject can decide on a case by case basis whether that treatment is justified by an overriding benefit to the encyclopedia. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 07:18, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Indeed.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:10, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I suppose that the crux of the issue is: how big is actually the harm/insult/humiliation/disrespect in calling someone by a name they didn't choose? After all, one could say, 99% of us didn't choose their own name. I understand it is a much different case in the case of transgender people, where tuning of their public identity with their inner, real gender identity is the issue -however I think this is blown a bit out of proportion. I personally highly doubt that Chelsea Manning is irremediably humiliated and damaged every time she's called "Bradley" by news and websites. --cyclopia 12:59, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

The problem with "case by case" is that it is not a collaborative rule. Case by case decisions can be made only by some individual in authority, someone with the self-confidence to declare that he can judge the degree of disrespect to be tolerated based on the circumstances as no one else can. Indeed, if that is the route we would like to pursue we ought to grant such personages formal copyright ownership of the work of the army of nobodies under their command, to ensure that its derivatives are not reworked in a way that might be unethical. I should assure you, to those of us who lack this degree of confidence in our work, it is quite a mystery why using a name used by many media outlets would be a concern for the policy, yet posting a big red banner over the article describing a recent massacre saying that it is being considered for deletion is not. (I actually lean slightly in favor of "Chelsea Manning", but I feel the BLP policy has added much heat and no light to what should be a dispassionate conversation) Wnt (talk) 15:12, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

We make collaborative decisions on judgment calls all the time here. If it isn't really clear to you that using Bradley is insulting, or if you think that reasonable people can't agree on the degree of insult and the degree of confusion the rename may cause readers and whether the latter justifies the former, then you aren't qualified to join the conversation, frankly. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 18:35, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

What is interesting is that this is the exact same controversy as we have had before involving the rating of "explicit" images. You think it is possible for a collaboration like Misplaced Pages to make subjective decisions balancing content against other priorities, as long as they're not made by the wrong people. Who are the wrong people? The ones who disagree with you... Wnt (talk) 19:35, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Your position, that we can't involve ourselves in judgments of whether content is insulting or offensive - to our subjects or readers - is based on the assumption that we all lack the necessary discernment. We don't. I know a good number here are completely lacking in such social sensitivity - far more than I encounter offline - but it is a mistake to assume that we all share that deficit. And it is a mistake to design our fundamental engagement with our readership and our subjects on the basis that "Oh, sorry, but no one here can judge offensiveness," and especially misguided to base anything on the premise that "We don't care if we offend our readers or subjects," (something many here trumpet without the lease hint of embarrassment). The former is autistic, and the latter is callous/psychopathic. I know we have a lot of those here - I'm praying it's not the majority and that the majority won't let the highly-dysfunctional basement-denizens set our tone when it comes to something as important as respectful dealing with our readers, subjects and each other - so far, though, the social misfits have the upper hand. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 23:52, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

In my opinion such decisions everyone should be able to make. Social misfits are a small minority, and I'm sure that people can use their common sense when dealing with these issues. Respect and dignity is universal, although that doesn't seem to be the case here. Perhaps people on Misplaced Pages ought to think of what they would feel if someone, for example doesn't respect their gender. KonveyorBelt 23:59, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

And we should all be creative geniuses and look like movie stars. Sadly, life's not fair. The sense you're wanting people to exercise isn't universal. You ask people to imagine a feeling: It is really true that some people just can't feel how others would be affected by an insult, and more troubling, some can imagine it but think it's irrelevant. Really. And they brag about it. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 00:27, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Life's not fair, and neither is Misplaced Pages, apparently. Look up Robert Clark Young and half the article, including the lead, is made up of stuff about his Misplaced Pages editing that is of very little interest outside Misplaced Pages... but because editors use their discretion, case by case, you get the smell of whether Misplaced Pages muckety-mucks are ticked off at somebody or not. Meanwhile, it's been like pulling teeth to get in even widely publicized negative information about politicians. The way we should make these decisions is to follow the sources, faithfully going wherever they lead, stuffing our articles with all relevant information. Wnt (talk) 02:13, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

You can cite bad articles all day on every noticeboard the wiki has to offer but nothing will happen of it. It still requires some anonymous volunteer to clean it up. From the short time I've been at Misplaced Pages so far, I've gathered that most editors are involved with process than actually improving the article, and the chief place I've noticed it is at the Chelsea manning RM. Over 100 editors participated but yet after it was moved and unprotected only a few actually edited it. KonveyorBelt 02:32, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

We have thousands of active editors and many more who make occasional contributions. Far more than get involved in process matters such as this requested move. Yes the small number of articles that are involved in contentious things such as this requested move are going to get a lot of extra attention, but this is a site with around 200,000 edits per day - mostly in article space. The whole renaming saga will have been a tiny fraction of a percent of this quarters edits, and an extreme outlier rather than evidence that most editors are involved with process than actually improving the article. ϢereSpielChequers 10:08, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Well stated, Anthonyhcole. I like the way you framed the issue as a matter of BLP guidelines. Liz 20:00, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

It's also a fallacy to assume that the neutral point of view is in the middle, especially when sentiments calling for trans people to be put in concentration camps are often expressed. Academic and medical consensus is completely in favour of the recognition of transgender individuals and their identity, and that should be what we follow, not a press which public inquiries have found to have flaws (on the same lines, would we believe the Daily Express on immigration, for example?) Sceptre 14:42, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

In response to Jimbo and "reprehensible"

I'll forgive you for being a bit behind the times as you're a busy man and all, but when you have a moment, peruse User:Tarc/Manning statement. I'm fully supportive of a transgender person's life choices, and of naming a Misplaced Pages article in-kind, but I was curious to see how arbcom would deal with a polite yet prejudicial argument against transgender recognition. They, un-surprisingly, dropped the ball. After years of keeping the lunatics at bay in the Obama articles, arguing in favor of dropping the misogynistic "wife of" from Sarah Jane Brown, or opposing (ultimately unsuccessfully) the depopulation of women authors from the novelists category, people around here shoulda caught on quicker.

Mr. Gorand though did a great, great disservice to the Chelsea-supporting side; his miserable, combative, shrill tone was one of the primary reasons that it all had to go to Arbitration at all. Tarc (talk) 12:46, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Do you really think this trolling scheme makes you look a better person ? Iselilja (talk) 12:50, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Or that it's at all believable? Formerip (talk) 13:00, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I look like a rather great person actually, my sense of self-worth has always been rather stratospheric. And FormerIP, what would I have to gain by that ? My section of the Arbcom stood at 2-7 against any sanction at all, so it wasn't like it an 11th hour punishment evasion or anything. I may even be in more hot water now by revealing it. Seriously, think before making such an absurd comment. Tarc (talk) 13:39, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

When I was in primary school, a common way out of having said something embarrassing was to claim you had said it as a joke. Even then, it didn't really work, it just made you seem even more ridiculous. Formerip (talk) 13:52, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Again, if the arbcom case was crashing around my ears and I was on the edge of imminent sanction, then you'd have a point. Or if it was close like the Muhammad case where I skated off by the skin of my teeth, you'd have a point. If I'd not said any of this, no one would be the wiser, and then its off to the next big wiki-drama. Trust me bro; neither "shame" nor "embarrassment" are in my dictionary. Tarc (talk) 14:02, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't believe that for a second. Maybe your dictionary is lacking an entry for "moderation", which would explain why, having made the miscalculation of backing team moron at the outset, you went in far too stridently to subtly shift your position as the debate progressed, like everyone else did. And why you were left feeling like a prize dick when the dust settled. Formerip (talk) 14:13, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Facepalm What part of "I had already won" are you confused by? Tarc (talk) 14:17, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

The part where your nose started to grow longer. Formerip (talk) 14:22, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Calm down, Tarc. Here’s a crystal ball for you. FormerIP naturally knew all the all (as did we all) that you weren’t really conservative. He is just pretending he doesn’t, to make you drink your own troll medicine. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 14:31, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, if all FormerIP meant was "I am a WP:DICK", that could have been accomplished in 4 words. Brevity is the soul of wit and the essence of lingerie, after all. Tarc (talk) 14:56, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Write your own joke or pay Dorothy Parker a nickel. Carrite (talk) 15:17, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

If the Tea Party were to embrace ObamaCare, that would not make their past behavior leading to the government shutdown any better. Count Iblis (talk) 15:35, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I and a couple of other editors who stood firmly against extremely discriminatory anti-trans speech a month ago (that was met with no sanctions at all) and continued to argue against wrong decisions, and who navigated Chelsea Manning's article safely back to Chelsea despite harsh resistance and attacks against ourselves, are the ones who might just have saved Misplaced Pages's honour. Whether editors like Tarc were serious or whether they were just perpetrating the biggest case of disruptive WP:POINT ever perpetrated on Misplaced Pages, as he now claims, when they made comments like these, doesn't matter. They lost, and they look bad. Immensely bad. And they are now taking it out on me, it seems. (I should also note that Tarc was one of the main culprits in creating an aggressively discriminatory atmosphere and a hostile climate in that discussion, and baiting good faith editors into getting enraged over comments comparing trans people to pigs doesn't make him look more agreeable, if his claims here are even true) Josh Gorand (talk) 16:09, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Josh, I didn't "lose" a thing. The move of the article back to "Bradley Manning" for a month was perhaps morally wrong but per policy of Misplaced Pages was sound, and that move (and the 30 day moratorium) were upheld by the Arbitration Committee. Tariqabjotu was not sanctioned for any of his actions, but Gerard received an admonishment. You are thankfully being removed from the topic area permanently. You were right about what the project should have done w.r.t. Chelsea vs. Bradley; the unfortunate side is that your ego and self-righteous grandstanding did far more harm to the entire affair than good. You're like what the Earth Liberation Front is to the conservation movement (and that isn't a compliment). Tarc (talk) 17:32, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

The #1 rule of trolls is, don't feed the trolls. I'd suggest everyone just ignore Tarc and his rather epic trollfest, he's just relishing the attention even more and it makes him even more smug.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:38, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Coming from the editor who tried to hijack the Sarah Jane Brown and Hillary Rodham move requests with misogynist antics a few months ago, we can safely conclude that your opinion is valued somewhere south of zero. Tarc (talk) 18:15, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Please don't make personal attacks (on Jimbo's talk page, no less). Konveyor Belt express your horror at my edits 18:38, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

There is no attack, just an assessment of what this user did in previous gender-oriented pagemove discussions. Obiwan's actions are well-documented in the talk page archives of Sarah Jane Brown and Hillary Rodham Clinton, respectively. The latter he even tried to close himself, despite a) being a non-admin and b) having a clear conflict-of-interest. Fun times. Tarc (talk) 18:48, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

As I said Konveyor, Tarc is an admitted troll, so you can safely ignore whatever he says, in whichever forum. He delights in riling people up and then watching their reactions. The fact that he doesn't even know what Misogyny or conflict of interest means, nor did (or could) he ever articulate how these terms might apply to my carefully considered close of Hillary Clinton, is evidence enough that he's not worth the time or the energy.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:50, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Both words were explained to you quite exhaustively in each discussion. Your lack of comprehension is not a concern of mine, and it sounds simply like someone's still a bit bitter after going 0-for-2, despite your spirited harassment admins involved in those closes. Tarc (talk) 21:50, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

You can't win Tarc. If you strike him down, he shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:52, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Tarc should stop using the dark side of the Force. Count Iblis (talk) 20:55, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

But who can resist the Dark Side? Especially when it has cookies ? Tarc (talk) 21:50, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Conspiracy is ever a possibility, while flat stupidity is quite ever a greater probability. What trumps the cold examination of facts is that conspiracy leads more than often to a better looking story: se non è vero, è ben trovato. Rewrite Josh Gorand as a right-wing troll trying to depict some advocacy group with a deprecative brush and you obtain a far more convincing story. Another example is the process that expelled the self-made woman Sarah Brown from her birth name, renamed her --2007/05/26-- as Sarah Brown (actress) and ended --2013/06/21-- into Sarah Joy Brown. Look at it as a troll and everything finds its place. Even now the main picture of the Sarah_Brown_(wife_of_Gordon_Brown) article is croped from a "Sarah and Gordon picture at the 10's door" (featuring George and Laura), and the other picture is "Charity Brown Nursing the Poor BLP Minister". Moreover, the infobox teach us that Charity Brown has been fired and replaced by Charity Samantha Cameron (don't tell she may be David's wife!). A question remains: what was/what is the target of the Brown's troll? The BLP as a whole? The Charity Brown's advocacy group? The WMUK Charity? The infamous infoboxes' advocacy group? Could it be a multi-card troll? Pldx1 (talk) 10:30, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Google Trends

FWIW, "Bradley Manning" is still the most commonly name used name. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:27, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

What that shows it that it's the more commonly searched-for string on Google. Which is interesting but not very. Formerip (talk) 14:51, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, and did you know COMMONNAME doesn't have to be the MOST common name? I was just reading that. And then reading this. __Elaqueate (talk) 17:21, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

In my opinion moving "Bradley Manning" to "Chelsea Manning" is as absurd as the new California law that allows transgender schoolkids to choose which restroom and locker room they use. I mean it's OK to allow a biological boy who underwent sex reassignment therapy to use girls restroom, but it is not how the law is going to work. According to the law a child will be allowed to use the facilities of his/her choice "Once a discussion among the student, the family and school officials takes place". The same with Chelsea Manning, why not to wait until Bradley Manning will physically become Chelsea Manning and then rename the article? After all Bradley Manning could still change his (her?) mind. 24.4.37.209 (talk) 18:04, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Changing your gender is a monumentous decision, and not really one which you can "change your mind". Give Manning her dignity and accept she wants to be a woman. Konveyor Belt express your horror at my edits 18:17, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Just as a neutral information, Konveyor Belt, you indeed can change your mind on gender reassignment, sometimes with tragic consequences: : According to studies in America and Holland, around one in 20 post-operative transsexuals changes his or her mind after surgery, and around one in ten never adjusts and often becomes deeply depressed. --cyclopia 13:10, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Wow, that article's from 1993. Even with more recent numbers, I've read that of the less than five percent who have trouble, it's not all strictly regret issues: some have it for non-satisfaction with the quality of medical care, rather than the the surgery itself (those are sometimes quite tragic stories), or also from continued stigma issues, which are socially-, not surgery-caused. __Elaqueate (talk) 17:43, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

• It is considered an invasion of privacy (medical) to demand medical evidence of sex changes. -Wikid77 18:23, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Where is Kate Middleton now: In many places, the name "Kate Middleton" is well-known, but I imagine there are few who could state the new formal name as "Catherine,..." and yet the article was renamed immediately. I think that is the major point, when a person has an attorney make a formal statement of name change. -Wikid77 18:23, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

AQFK is well-aware that if "but google!" is a failed argument in deletion discussions when determining a subject's notability. it fares no better here when discussing what an article title should be. A superficial, lazy argument. Tarc (talk) 18:25, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

If you do a Google news search, "Bradley Manning" outnumbers "Chelsea Manning" by roughly 3-to-1. So no matter how you slice or dice it, "Bradley Manning" is still the most commonly used name. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:49, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Except that this situation clearly isn't just a numbers game. I, JethroBT 20:00, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

This situation is no different from any other situation. We should use the most commonly used name. How do you think we should determine the most commonly used name? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:11, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

A Quest For Knowledge, drop the stick. There have been arguments about this since August 22nd, ARBCOM is finishing up their proposed decisions, the article was moved to Chelsea Manning yesterday...in other words, this dispute is winding down. Now is not the time to continue to argue. By and large, the matter has been settled. I think 8 weeks of discussion (and blood-letting) about this is enough. Time to put in place procedures to address future cases like this when they arise so this won't all have been for naught. Liz 20:22, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

The dead horse has been by far beaten quite to smithereens. Just drop the issue. Konveyor Belt express your horror at my edits 20:54, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Guys, in a civil debate, explaining why you disagree with someone is fine. Telling someone you disagree with to "shut up" as one or more of you are effectively doing above is insensitive, demeaning, and insulting. Please don't do it. There is no room for it on Misplaced Pages. Just politely say why you disagree and please leave it at that. Cla68 (talk) 00:45, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm sure if you had to listen to the same argument 20 times over you'd feel the same way. KonveyorBelt 15:46, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

OK. I guess I'm just sensitive to the need to honor diversity, including diversity of opinion, and us being careful not to "other" editors with different opinions. Cla68 (talk) 01:45, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

It is perhaps telling that KonveyorBelt doesn't have a response. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:42, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Wow, egotistical much? Some people have better things to do with their day than camp out on Jimbo's talk page furiously slamming F5 to see what latest wiki-morsel has dropped from your fingers. The absence of a retort is does not validate your opinion. Tarc (talk) 14:07, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with "diversity of opinion". Google hits are not an appropriate reason for a !vote, and especially not when the same editor has pushed them around in most of the discussions. KonveyorBelt 16:54, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

I am surprised by the number of people who opposed the name change to Chelsea... and more so by their logic. (Not surprised by Tarc's trolling btw, that was the one thing constant with the rest of Misplaced Pages's function and my world-view on things around here). Clearly the entire conversation should have been ruled by WP:BLP, which ultimately exists for us to not get in legal hot water about with libel laws, and secondarily so we don't "hurt feelings". Clearly if someone changes their gender, and especially if they change their legal name... calling them by a different name gets very close to a gray area, and BLP has existed in a manner to keep us WELL AWAY from any gray areas; in my opinion- this, especially when in combination with a change in gender, got us waaaaaaaaay to close to the gray area of legality. Individual editors can not "like" California law regarding transgender or other specific laws regarding gender identity, but Misplaced Pages doesn't get involved with what laws we like and don't like. As an employer I know in my state I can not go around referring to one person as a certain gender when they identify as a different gender, that would be sexual harassment. We must realize that Chelsea serves in a male prison only because laws identify for incarceration purposes gender is determined by "penis or no penis" regardless of anything else, including genetics and secondary sex characteristics such as breasts, hermaphrodites even go to male prisons (at least in Colorado they do for now, Jose Ruiz/Jasmine Martinez is suing to change that), but as far a I know we don't classify all hermaphrodites as males on Misplaced Pages (perhaps a guideline on this issue?). I'm disappointed in Wikipedians who thought it would not be a BLP violation to determine for someone what their gender identity is... especially since we are extremely careful on religion, race, ethnicity, and nationality not to call someone as something other than strictly what that person themselves identify as.Camelbinky (talk) 16:33, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

@KonveyorBelt: Why do you say that a Google News search isn't appropriate in determining the most most common name? How do you recommend that we determine the most common name for an article's topic? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:18, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Is there any remaining evidence of the deceased equine, beyond a slight stain in the ground? AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:26, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

@A Quest For Knowledge: Commoname strictly says reliable sources. If you think Google hits is a reliable source you really need to read the policy again. KonveyorBelt 17:32, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

To give you a taste of your own bitter medicine, it is telling that AQFK has not responded or backed up his own stance with policy. KonveyorBelt 02:49, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

@Konveyor: It's important to distinguish between a Google search and a Google News search. A Google search indexes all of the Internet but Google News only indexes news sources. There used to be a time where Google News searches indexed non-reliable sources such as prisonplanet.com, but Google fixed that problem a couple years ago. So, my "stance" (as you put it - I don't really have a "stance", I try to answer these types of issues objectively without letting person opinion get in the way) is to determine the most commonly used name using reliable sources. This is policy. In any case, you didn't answer my second question: how do you recommend that we determine the most common name for an article's topic? AQFK (talk) 12:38, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

@A Quest For Knowledge: Misplaced Pages:Google test. "Google News used to be less susceptible to manipulation by self-promoters, but with the advent of pseudo-news sites designed to collect ad revenues or to promote specific agendas, this test is often no more reliable than others in areas of popular interest, and indexes many "news" sources that reflect specific points of view." Etc. Etc. Etc. Google can point to sources, but sources must be examined individually. Google News collects sources that we would consider reliable and sources we would consider not reliable. Sometimes it adds more than one hit from the same originating source. You can't point to "totals of good and bad sources of an unknown ratio" and claim it shows a knowable total of reliable sources. Google obviously hasn't fixed the problem of having non-reliable sites show up in their searches, as your searches indicate. A favorite sample hit from your linked Google News search for "Bradley Manning" is a non-english Norwegian site that still refers to her as "Chelsea (tidligere Bradley) Manning". I think that's Språkstriden for "You are mistaken to rely on Google to judge whether a source is reliable or that it said what you thought it did".) __Elaqueate (talk) 17:21, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

COMMONNAME says reliable sources. Google is not a reliable source. Reliable sources are only provided by Google. It is up to editors to examine whether Google is giving them a reliable source or not. This is the purpose of that massive discussion at the bottom of the RM examining reliable sources at Talk:Bradley Manning/October 2013 move request#Older discussion on the sources only. KonveyorBelt 20:21, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

What does WP's configuration control/content board say on the issue since they have ultimate authority on content questions? Cla68 (talk) 10:29, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

@Elaqueate:Misplaced Pages:Google test is out of date. The text that was quoted was added way back in 2006. Google changed its News Search algorithm a couple years ago and now does a much better job indexing only news sites. But you are quite correct that we should only be looking at reliable sources and reliability needs to be judged on a case-by-case basis. The Norwegian source can be ignored since the WP:COMMONNAME policy says that "Misplaced Pages prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources) as such names will be the most recognizable and the most natural." A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:42, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

@A Quest For Knowledge: "The Norwegian source can be ignored..." But you're not ignoring it if you're comparing totals including it, and many other non-useful results like it. That's the point. (You'll also note that it quotes results in the ten thousands range, but if you click through to the last page of results, it shows results only in the hundreds range.) The unreliability of a Google News total is a current issue, known for years. Comparing bogus search total numbers significantly comprised of unusable non-English sources is not objective or accurate. __Elaqueate (talk) 06:51, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

@Elaqueate: In the past, one methodology that I've used is to examine the first X numbers of sources and judge on a individual basis whether each source meets Misplaced Pages's definition of reliable. So, for example, if the sample size was 20 and 13 sources used A and 7 sources said B, then you would go with A. Of course, it's difficult to determine exactly what the sample size should be. Perhaps 30 or 40 would be better. And, of course, the larger the sample size, the more time consuming a task this becomes. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:00, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

I think the statistical term is "eyeballing". I'll consider your methodology the next time I'm in a rush. __Elaqueate (talk) 17:35, 15 October 2013 (UTC){od}

Please stop trying to fit 10 pounds of shiat into a 2 pound box. It's obvious it's not her "common name" when every article has to introduce her with her common name so they know wtf the article is talking about. Julia Serano is a common name. No one has to publish "previously known as XXX Serano." We don't even have her birth name in the article, though it's widely available. Heck, I wouldn't even attempt to add it to Serano because of the irrational response it would receive even if it mimicked the Manning article. "Chelsea Manning" is listed there for only a few reasons: one of which is that listing it there causes less disruption and harm than any other pace. It's not her legal name in any common, statutory or administrative law sense. It's not her common name in any rationale way when articles about her have to include "Bradley" and articles not about her omit "Chelsea" completely. We respect her self-identification out of the belief that it is least harmful. It should only extend to her bio and accounts of fact after her conviction. Trying to make ludicrous claims about who she is doesn't make it easier to decide what follows. --DHeyward (talk) 05:40, 16 October 2013 (UTC) @AQFK, Elaqueate, and Konveyor belt- this has nothing to do with COMMONNAME... that's a red herring and your back and forth private conversation in a public place is a bit annoying. It has always, and rightfully so, been a BLP issue. If you really want to convince people of your POV from either side of the aisle, then address the BLP issue. Otherwise go to your talk pages and have your discussion truly privately by yourselves.Camelbinky (talk) 13:33, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

I think a good biography article should always give the other names used for any significant period of time; this is not meant as an insult to the subject but should happen regardless of whether some people are minded to take it as such. (I argued this position in regard to Touré, whose birth name is now given at the start of the article, long before these trans issues took off) However, we should also be hesitant to accept the "legal" version as definitive, especially as by policy we are specifically prohibited from giving legal advice. If an American government decides tomorrow to rename Snowden as "Infamous Cowardly Traitor" unless and until he shows up in person to contest it (oh lord I just gave them an idea...), we wouldn't follow that. According to a prison spokesman , Marcec added that Manning will be addressed as Bradley, not Chelsea, unless a court approves a legal name change. “The Army doesn’t let you be called by whatever you want to be called,” he said. While I understand that a prison could be mocked by unrestricted legal name changes, the bottom line is that there's really very little conceptual difference between the ridiculous hypothetical case and the reality. What we need to do is put aside all emotion and just ask ourselves - what does the majority of reliable sources consider to be Manning's current name? Without the slightest concern for what side of the issue that puts us on or who is offended by it. Wnt (talk) 22:04, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Systematic use of Misplaced Pages to further Hindu nationalist propaganda

Dear Mr. Wales,

Good day to you!

My name is Andrew Cabral and I’m writing to you from India.

I wish to bring to your notice (in case it hasn’t already, that is) the fact that Misplaced Pages is being systematically used by a certain very well-defined community of users to propagate misinformation (often downright lies). There is an extreme right-wing Hindu political propagandist organization in India called the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) whose sole agenda is to distort history to accommodate their view of India as the cradle of civilization, Sanskrit as the mother of all languages, and to glorify India and simultaneously undermine other civilizations, nations and cultures. Needless to say, their views are not accepted by any mainstream scholarship, aside from a few crackpots, who will naturally always be there. Nonetheless, their influence in India itself is considerable. They exploit the relatively uneducated Indian by preaching to him that India was always at the forefront of civilization and that barbaric outsiders plundered her and stole all her secrets. Partially true, no doubt, but definitely not the way they tell it. They instill a sense of xenophobia in the average Indian and play upon his victim complex. They make them believe that Indians are the only truly religious, pious, peace-loving, tolerant (and what have you) people around. They instill a sense of false superiority in these people and purposefully glorify India by either making sweeping claims about it and its history or shrewdly manipulating any historical ambiguity into something which “conclusively” proves their point. When confronted by those who know better, these people use one of two escape routes, namely, talk sheer circumlocuting rubbish or directly attack the other as racist and biased.

A point in fact is the Talk page of the Misplaced Pages article on “Man”. I request you (actually strongly urge you) to read what is on that page itself. I had made an edit request on the 12th of February this year which was accepted almost immediately. It is only recently that I got to know what had transpired since then. I have just left a long communication on that page to the principal involved. Kindly do read it and decide for yourself the merits of my bringing this to your notice. Also please be rest assured that I can give you many other instances of the orthodox Hindu mind at work on Misplaced Pages, should you wish me to do so. Please understand that this is NOT an isolated incident. As one editor on the Talk page of Indian Mathematics put it, “Sadly, mathematics is far from the only topic on Misplaced Pages which suffers from this artificial inflation of India's role.” When you do have the time, you can read that rather lengthy page and see for yourself what regular editors have had to face. Also, please be clear that although these people represent a huge percentage of Indians, they do not represent India in general. I have personally known two Indians who were regular contributors to Misplaced Pages and whose integrity was beyond question. Even the editor Saddhiyama who kept his cool on the Man talk page is probably Indian.

Inasmuch as it is one thing to point out a problem area and quite another to propose a means which could even start approaching its rectification, I am at a loss as to how to suggest a method to check or even contain the progress of these people. Nonetheless, even if you were aware of this problem before, I felt that it merited my presenting it. The closed, bigoted and uneducated mind is cancerous, and, as we all know, if there is one thing that cancer does well, that thing is spreading itself.

Thank you for reading this. I trust that you will take due cognizance of the matter.

Sincerely yours,

Andrew Cabral — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.98.200.54 (talk) 10:32, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

• Boosterism is a problem worldwide: It can be frustrating when trying to provide a balanced view of subjects, but even many published sources have a "systemic bias" to overly focus on the positive aspects of a subject. Jimbo has mentioned the problem of boosterism with people writing the glowing, wp:PEACOCK praise of local towns or schools. Although the excessive superlatives are often seen in articles about India, there has been equivalent text in other articles as well. The world tends to present awards for merit, with few awards given for earning shame. Jimbo even caught a highly experienced admin deleting negative sourced text about police investigations of a person, which had the effect of whitewashing police activities where police corruption could be concealed by admins deleting sourced text about police actions. The solution seems to be to get more people to help with screening of articles to (re-)add the sourced negative text to provide overall wp:NPOV balance, and try to limit the boosterism everywhere. -Wikid77 (talk) 13:34, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) The pernicious influence of Hindutva ideology on English Misplaced Pages is fairly well known among those who contribute in the India-Pakistan-Hindu-Muslim related area and by those who do not but who are familiar with the many problems relating to it that have been raised at WP:ANI over the years. Doing something about it is an entirely different matter: there seems often to be a reluctance to take action until a problematic editor has been doing their thing for quite some time. These people tend to work in teams and are usually good at spouting the various policy acronyms even if they are less well-versed in the application of those policies. The key is often to find the cheerleader and indeed there is one example at present who is serving a ban and whose absence is almost certainly connected with the voluntary withdrawal of a couple of others who have demonstrated a similar tendency. That person's ban ends soon and there are people watching to see whether the others return at that time. A similar situation happened a year or so ago, although the probability in that instance is that the troublesome elements have returned under different identities. - Sitush (talk) 13:41, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

• Yes, Wikid77, "boosterism" is a common trait. The awkward point with Hindutva is that too few people outside India are familiar with it and thus the ability to spot the POV is constrained. The number of people willing to dip their toes into the Indic-related sphere is woefully small. In some ways, given what I and some others have to face, I don't blame them! - Sitush (talk) 13:44, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

• Yes you are quite right about. If I never get involved in another indic related dispute it will be a day too soon.... Spartaz 16:18, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Wikid77! I’m afraid you don’t appreciate the gravity of the situation. This isn’t a matter of boosting a particular individual or organization; it’s a whole race of people. Need I remind you what fraction of the world’s population is Indian and even if you take that a quarter of the country’s population is influenced by Hindutva (a modest estimate, in my opinion), then you have a sizeable proportion of the globe to deal with. As Sitush and Spartaz know, these are not people with whom you can deal in a rational manner. They have monolithic mindsets and manipulative tendencies. I’ll give you an example. I recently had occasion to disprove on a Yahoo page a pet claim of theirs: that the Vedas, etc. accurately predicted the age of the universe. I quoted from the Vishnu Puran and did the arithmetic, so to speak. The response (at least I wasn’t abused, but then I was very straightforward): “Mathematics does not prove anything. You have to be truly spiritual to be able to understand the depth of our scriptures. Hinduism is based on natural principles. Our rishis and munnis developed great time-scales for the benefit of all humanity. Blah, blah, blah!” I trust you get the point. Another thing you might not be aware of is the fact that the RSS were always great admirers of the Nazis. Of course, they don’t have the balls (unlike the Nazis did) to openly state that they want a “pure” “Aryan” India free from “foreigners”, but that is their basic desire. I’m very sure that “boosterism” (a term I wasn’t aware of but immediately understood) exists in other spheres as well, but I am even more sure that it doesn’t to even half the extent to which it does here. I knew exactly what I was saying when I compared it to a cancer. It’s far more than just superlatives. I’m telling you there are both downright lies and ambiguities which are tweaked in their favour, superlatively, of course. There are also convenient omissions, either of the type which could water down their claims or which could show that others (non-Indian cultures, nations, civilizations, even individuals) had more rights to those claims. We live in an information age which is as much a misinformation age. A site like Misplaced Pages loses its credibility among those who know better. Even those who don’t and who have no reason to be inclined towards Hindutva start getting suspicious after a point and stop trusting what they find here. Those who are of the “Oh my Gawd, this is so coooool!” disposition get taken for a ride, literally. And those who desperately want to believe get their ideas reinforced. The proportion of people in India who actually read books is less than in most other countries. Their source of information is invariably the net. So, you don’t realize it, but Misplaced Pages is not only catering to their need to portray India and its history in a superlative light to the rest of the world, but it is also actually contributing towards increasing the strength of their own fold.

Andrew — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.96.204.30 (talk) 15:47, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, Andrew, see below: "#Slanting most school, team or town pages". -Wikid77 (talk) 14:00, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Sitush! I fully understand what you, Spartaz and others have to go through on an almost daily basis. I first started doubting things related to the History of Indian Mathematics pages (particularly Bhaskara II), but after reading in one of those “Fact of the Matter” boxes in the Times of India newspaper that “the English word Navigation comes from Sanskrit Navigutha” and finding exactly that on Misplaced Pages, I started doubting everything related to India on Misplaced Pages. It is one of Hindutva’s cherished dreams to prove that English derives from Sanskrit (the colonial hangover). Forget the fact that navigation derives from the Latin “navigare”, to them even Latin and Greek come from Sanskrit. The early philologists like William Jones’ waxing eloquent over Sanskrit in comparison to Latin and Greek is always quoted as “proof”. I once went to great pains on the comments section of a page on YouTube to explain that English was one language that was influenced by more languages than most for it to be traced to even one “original” source, leave alone one as far away as Sanskrit. In reply, I was given a list of English words with similar phonetics and meanings in Sanskrit. Most of them were root words and all were what we know as Latin- or Greek-based. I was told that if I wanted, there were “thousands” of more words which could be posted. I didn’t bother replying. Maybe I will one of these days. Proto-Indo-European doesn’t exist for them. Forgive me for boring you, but I’m purposely writing these things down so that others can read of concrete, real incidents which have taken place and so understand the situation better.

Regarding the problematic editors, why, may I ask, is there often a reluctance to take action earlier on? It only gets worse the longer one waits and they thrive on the extra time granted them. In fact, it bolsters their confidence. It is quite possible that the particular editor of whom you were talking is the same Archetypex07 who made a scene on the Man Talk page. After giving it some thought last night, I have a suggestion which might not go down well with Jimmy Wales or even the editors of Misplaced Pages, but I do believe that it’s worth due consideration. Along the lines of what PayPal does to verify a new member’s credit card number, namely, charging him a token refundable fee which appears on his credit card statement along with a special code which has to be inputted by the member on the PayPal site, Misplaced Pages could try a similar thing with actual identification documents, with the promise that the editor’s identity won’t be revealed to the community at large, etc. One who wants to become a regular editor would have to upload scans of TWO acceptable identification documents AND pay the token fee via PayPal or any other medium (Misplaced Pages would have to hook up with these). Someone who is honest and has good intentions shouldn’t have a problem with this. Once the prospective editor verifies his identity via the code on the Misplaced Pages site, he can become a regular full-time editor. Misplaced Pages stores his ID info in its database. If he is banned, then he cannot become an editor again unless he falsifies his identity. This would actually lower the number of cranks out there in general, not just the “Indian” ones. The way things are, it’s too easy for them. Once it gets stricter, they’ll at least think twice. And if one is caught falsifying his ID the second time, it becomes a legal matter. Some desperate idiot might try falsifying his ID the very first time itself. In that case, he’d be very careful not to come under any suspicion whatsoever, like doing something which could get him banned. The point is that even though he might use someone else’s credit card at different times without sweating, he would have to upload his own ID each time. And anyway, how many people could one ask to use their card and then expect them to give him the code they want? One could even think about faxing signatures for verification. I don’t think it would cost Misplaced Pages too much in terms of investment. One could try a similar thing even at the level of those who edit protected pages (assuming that not every full-time editor can). This way, Misplaced Pages would even know how many editors are from India at a given time, etc. Think about it!

Andrew — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.98.193.14 (talk) 18:19, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Nationalism is a problem for articles on nearly every country on Misplaced Pages. It is not unique to India although there might be fewer Editors and Admins watching over sensitive articles. But it is a pernicious problem that experienced Editors look out for.

I do find it ironic that you make this suggestion about validating accounts as you are editing anonymously as an IP and you aren't taking the time to register and create an account. But you propose other people need to show two forms of identification (how?) in order to edit? I can guarantee you that the chances of that happening are zero.

I think looking at the traffic stats, Misplaced Pages can estimate how many readers there are from India, if not Editors. I'm sure this information exists but I can't point you in the right direction. Liz 21:29, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Liz, I've already acknowledged that "boosterism" would definitely exist in other areas, but tell me, how experienced are you with not just what happens in India (on the ground, so to speak), but even on the India-related pages of Misplaced Pages? Read my comments again and try and understand what I'm saying, even if you instinctively wish to take me as some kind of crank. I don't doubt the abilities of experienced and honest editors. I'm saying that you have quite a few dishonest ones who are gaining even more experience at being so and that, furthermore, there'll be more to come if steps aren't taken to check them now. You seem to have taken my suggestion as some kind of attack on the general editor on Misplaced Pages. It was not. That should have been amply clear to anyone who reads my comments. I had even acknowledged that my idea would most probably not be entertained, but I think its a reasonably valid suggestion. The "validation" of accounts procedure which I had explained is supposed to be only in the beginning so as to ensure that people like Archetypex07 (the bad pennies) can't come back. The editor's anonymity is assured otherwise. This was suggested for full-time editors, the ones who edit protected pages. And what is the problem with filling in an online proforma and uploading some corroborating ID? Don't you do the same thing when you apply for a credit card, etc., fully believing in the assurance of the company concerned that your data is safe with them because it is secured with some SSL encryption or the other? Also, what is so ironic about my stance in the matter? I'm far from being anonymous over here. I'm certainly signing with my own name and I can't help it if my internet service provider keeps changing IP addresses. (I just clicked on the Talk button of my previous response and found some edit on Hindu College which I had certainly never done. Never even visited that page.) As far as my taking the time to register and create an account is concerned, I did once and for some reason (probably my connection), it failed. (That's why I compose these messages in Word first and then paste them here.) So what if I didn't try again? I'm still a member of the global community at large which accesses Misplaced Pages and I have the right to bring something to the site's notice if I feel it's important (I most certainly do and have given what I believe to be convincing arguments in support of it) and suggest something towards its resolution. I repeat, my suggestion is not intended to offend any honest editor or even threaten his/her anonymity, but only to bring in more accountability, which should not trouble the editors at Misplaced Pages unduly. Lastly, aside from my desire to see that misinformation is not disseminated in general, I have made it clear that Misplaced Pages's reputation is itself at stake in the long run. What long run? If I'm not mistaken, you'll have had problems with the dependability of the information on your pages for quite some time now.

Andrew — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.98.146.146 (talk) 06:12, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

One more thing, Liz, these people are not just from India. They're all over the world. Whereas, if you have ID, the Misplaced Pages database knows exactly who is who, even if he's a Russian in Afghanistan or a Englishman in New York. (Strange how sometimes when you're searching for an example to illustrate your point, some old tunes come to the rescue almost immediately.) And, as I've taken the pains to point out, not all Indians are like them. So, knowing the traffic from India does not help in any way.

Andrew — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.98.146.146 (talk) 06:41, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Andrew Cabral: I'm not sure that the problems of bias on India-related pages are all related to Hindutva, which is a particular brand of Hindu nationalism. It's not even all Hindu nationalism. Sometimes it is linguistic- or ethnic-subnationalism (in which people from one language speaking group) promote their POV. Some times it is Casteism in which people from one caste or one level in the hierarchy of castes, promote their POV. Sometimes it is a need for riding shotgun in history (indulged in, for example, by the father in "My Big Fat Greek Wedding") in which editors push the POV that everything noble or useful had its beginnings in (Greece or) India. Other times it is irredentisim or an Indian version of Manifest destiny in which editors dream about the what ifs of history as reality. Like any other form of bias, it needs vigilance. The better patrolled pages, such as India, have little bias. The caste-related pages, the movies-related pages, history-related pages, ex-royalty-related pages, unfortunately do. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:36, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

PS A group of editors are attempting to clean up Maratha-related history pages. Join the fray at Talk:Melgiri Pandit. Never heard of him? Not to worry, neither had I until a couple of days ago. But please register first; otherwise, you won't be taken seriously. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:36, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Slanting most school, team or town pages

Well, Andrew, let me emphasize this isn't a matter of boosting just a "whole race of people" but rather putting a spin to slant every school, sports arena, or town as "George Washington Slept Here the longest" while omitting the negative aspects of a topic. For example, while the article "French Quarter" (about the origin of New Orleans) does mention being "Spanish" architecture, it should also quickly mention the Spanish balconies and courtyards, the fires which destroyed most French buildings, emphasize there are few outdoor cafes as in France, and note the lack of shade trees so the street temperature can exceed 110 °F (43 °C), unlike many French towns with park squares and trees. Similarly, a seaside town, while noting the view along the shoreline or beaches should also note the common undertow or rip tides, sea nettles, seaweed around swimmers (Mombasa, Kenya), sand blown into food, or the cold-water season. More than just claiming an ancient connection between English words and Sanskrit cognates, the boosterism in town pages has omitted the negative issues for most aspects of town life. That is why some other editors have been trying to explain the rampant extent of the problem which also slants the non-India topics. People should read the page "French Quarter" and come away knowing there are few French buildings, few outdoor cafes, few French shade trees, and unbearable heat/humidity most of the year (not to mention graffiti which says, "9th ward 4EVER"). -Wikid77 (talk) 14:00, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Wikid77, for giving me some other examples of boosterism which I wasn't aware of. I have noticed such things on some non-India pages, but not the ones which you've mentioned. I'll read up on "slanting" schools/towns.

Andrew

Fowler&fowler, this isn't exactly the place to get into a debate which we could very well end up having some other time. Nonetheless, I'll start it. I'm very well aware of the regional sub-nationalism which exists in India (basically linguistic), two prime examples being the Marathis and the Tamilians. But if you go by sheer numbers, they are beaten hands down by the "North", which anyway has always tried (generally with success) to dominate these regional identities. Furthermore, three of the four religions which were born in India were basically from that same northern region. So, those who exhibit the regional variety often do exhibit the global one as well. The RSS hardly has a following in the south. (It might grow though.) But they are thick in the north and always have been. And they are extremely casteist. You would have lower caste POVs, but they'd be minuscule compared to the higher ones. I'm sure that you'd agree that much with me. If irredentism is counterfactual history, like what the Latin American writers love to churn out, I'm not so sure. I think something of a slightly different nature applies here. Indians love historicizing their mythology and do so all the time. (You are doubtless aware of that.) There can be no question of counterfactuals there because they don't wish to explore any alternatives to what happened the way they believe it. (Don't you know that the Mahabharat war ended on the 18th of February, 3102 BC? Such precision!) The only what-if's which they dwell upon are "What if the Arabs and, later, the Europeans hadn't invaded us?" Some of those dreams which you've written about have largely crystallized into "irrefutable facts" for them. The potential was always there, but it takes an organization like the RSS to exploit it fully and carry on the catalysis till what you're left with is a rigid, frog-in-a-deep-well mindset. Even the "riding shotgun" example you've given is quintessential RSS, where the Greeks were the Yavans (as in what became the accepted meaning, namely, barbaric/demonic foreigner, as opposed to the original, namely, the Sanskritic cognate of Ionian) while the Vedic Indians did "the stuff that dreams are made of". Literally, like flying "vimanas"! Even some of their "top scientists" are right there in the thick of things. Ever heard of a pompous ass named CK Raju? Check out his I-Me-and-Myself blog, which "proves", among other things, that infinitesimals and the idea of heliocentrism came from India. People like him are quoted as "experts". (You know how gurus are revered in India.) He does have the credentials, but he's misusing them. To summarize, I believe that most of the examples which you've cited are indeed all very much part of Hindutva, some right at its core and some more peripherally located.

At any rate, Jimmy Wales isn't interested in reading what either you or I believe on his page. His interest would be in whether what I'd written to him was legit or not. I haven't really bothered with the pages on Indian cinema or royalty. But thank you for confirming that the history-related pages are highly susceptible. I'll add the Indian mathematics and science pages to that. While we're at it, let's just treat the Indian philosophy ones as the tusker in the room!

Andrew

General statement: The idea which I'd written about (to ensure that certain editors don't get the chance to come back) is NOT the important thing to me. It was just a corollary to Sitush's reply. I have every respect for the honest editors at Misplaced Pages and appreciate the time and effort which they put in. I have no wish to disrupt the flow of their functioning. But I do wish that they realize that Hindutva and the RSS are in all probability more dangerous than any other religio-nationalistic tendencies from across the globe and, furthermore, that Misplaced Pages is especially susceptible to them, inasmuch as they are using it to further their agenda and will continue to do so.

Andrew Cabral — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.98.52.16 (talk) 18:56, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

You may be correct in certain points, but what I see is that you are just trying a RSS/Hindutiva bashing. Problems you mention are general problems with editors from India or maybe to promote one's regional belief is a general problem. I don't reckon RSS is as big a force as you are making it out to be or they are in some way trying to influence wikipedia. Have you read WP:TLDR. --Vigyani_talk 03:09, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler: I owe you an apology for my last reply. In retrospect, it appears to me that it could very easily be construed as my not respecting your views, which was not my intention. Aside from the fact that I think that you’re among the more senior editors who has replied to me (I might be wrong though), there is the undeniable fact that other than Sitush, you’ve been the only one who has tried to talk about the matter itself. I’m more clear-headed today than I was yesterday at this time and some things which I should have said then I’ll be stating in my reply to Vigyani below (the second half, which is liberally sprinkled with NOTs). Also thank you kindly for the offer to join the "Maratha Wars". I just might, even though Indian history of the post-Mughal period was always something which I avoided.

Andrew

Vigyani: I did check out the “Too Long, Didn’t Read” link but I’m afraid that not everything can be condensed into five or six sentences. In fact some of the best things in life, like the Russian writers, absolutely cannot. Anyway, even if it’s long, I write simpler than both Joyce and Pynchon, so there’s no question of my “prose” being too difficult to follow. I’ve been fully aware that I sound like I have a bee in my bonnet, but then every once in a while one feels strongly enough about something to act precisely in that manner. I’m also acutely aware that it’s considered bad form to continue dominating a discussion, but circumstances have dictated terms here. People haven’t exactly taken me seriously. So don’t worry, your reckoning places you among the clear majority. About the RSS/Hindutva “bashing”, you are in the extreme right (pun most intended). I’ve made no bones about the fact that I am anti both. Unlike most “bashers” though, I think that I’ve given enough cogent arguments for my “bashing”. The examples that I’ve given might bore one to death, but they all hold true. Since such matters are exceedingly sensitive, let me make it amply clear than I am anti-RSS/Hindutva, not anti-Hinduism. Hindutva is NOT synonymous with Hinduism and the RSS does NOT represent Hinduism, though it of course claims to be its guardian. There are many Hindus who outrightly reject both. I’ve read a decent bit about Hinduism and there are some things that I actually like about it. I’ve also not only read about but encountered facets of the RSS/Hindutva and there is absolutely nothing that I like about them. In fact, the very opposite holds: I loathe them. They are, after all, an organization which preaches intolerance to other faiths and cultures (unlike Hinduism itself), which supports defrauders like NS Rajaram (of reading Sanskrit in the Indus Valley script and fabricated Indus Valley horse seal fame) and nuts like David Frawley, which promotes the bogus, twentieth century Vedic Mathematics and Vymanika Shastra as “ancient”, and which in general propagates falsities as knowledge. If your name really is Vigyani, then you’re Indian and you definitely know what they teach in their school texts. The following link, which substantiates some of the things which I’ve written in my comments above, shows how they tried to introduce their textbooks into American schools some eight years ago:

http://www.panthic.org/articles/2209

If you feel that I have lied or misrepresented anything in my comments above, do feel free to point them out to me. Regarding Misplaced Pages, the problems which I’ve mentioned are NOT general problems with editors from India. Neither are they regional-minded editor problems. General/regional-minded editors would NOT be the ones who either wrongly or forcibly trace many English language word origins to Sanskrit. They would NOT be the ones who conveniently push dubious dates in Ancient India a few hundred years backwards. They would NOT be the ones who try to show that certain ideas developed in India before Greece. (Need I remind you that while Ancient Greek history is very well documented, the exact opposite holds for Ancient India?) They would NOT be the ones who try to place India before other nations on pages which trace the historical development of a discipline. (See the last substantial edit on the talk page of Historian, finally verified by Hillabear10 sometime last year. That was me. The edit, not Hillabear10. In fact, it has been a mistake on my part to have been harping on about India-related pages alone. The problem is there even in the general pages which have the potential to mention India.) They would NOT make the India mathematics and astronomy pages the caricature that they are, with convenient omissions (like Brahmagupta’s indebtedness to Diophantus), sensational lies (the calculus was "invented" in India; Madhava’s derivation of the Maclaurin series for the sine, cosine and inverse tangent was geometric and did NOT make use of any notion of a derivative or even a general function; Bhaskara II did NOT formulate the Mean Value Theorem; he gave a numerical approximation for the difference between the sine values of two “close” angles in terms of the cosine function and the difference between the angles) and a lot of gloss. (I can afford to talk here. My two degrees are in Mathematics.) They would NOT give either downright erroneous citations or citations which are as obscure and undependable as Suruchi Publishers, Allahabad. That makes six main NOTs which my rationale CANNOT ascribe to the general editor from India or the regional-minded one.

Andrew — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.98.8.226 (talk) 18:59, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Wikimania

Hey I just had this question in my mind and couldn't think of another person to ask. How is that all of you choose the location for Wikimania? Miss Bono 18:39, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

...and how can we get one in Sacramento? :-)--Mark Miller (talk) 18:45, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Check out this page at meta. Actually I think San Francisco might not be a bad place to have it. (IMHO) the WMF's location there would have plusses and minuses, but be a net plus. It is an expensive city though, just like London will be in 2014. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 19:26, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Even if Wikimania is not planned for a particular city, there can still be a osmaller event. See Misplaced Pages:Meetup.

—Wavelength (talk) 19:38, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

I think Sacramento would be a better venue than San Francisco. The foundations HQ there would be absolutely no benefit for Wikimania. It's a rather small building with no admittance without an appointment, ID etc. Just a private foundation office. Nothing spectacular, although of enough interest that I photographed it on my last trip to SF. LOL!. Sacramento, on the other hand, has an international airport with light rail to downtown. A major transportation plus! (even though Sac's RT is one of the most expensive in the nation). We have a very large convention center in the heart of the city with excellent accommodations and hotels of almost every level, from decent, clean motels, to a high quality luxury (if your into that) hotels near our state's capitol and seat of state government. The fact that I live near by is my own poor, pennyless reasoning....but Sacramento is indeed an excellent choice for a US Wikimania! Sac is just an hour and a half away from SF so foundation members could easily drive to it!--Mark Miller (talk) 19:55, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

It need not be at headquarters. San Francisco has better transport connections by road and rail, has a greater population, population density, and richer nightlife, and has the Moscone Center, where Wikimania could be held. All the while, travel expenditures would be reduced for Wikimedia employees. I think that San Francisco would be a good place for next year, and would allow the Foundation to reverse its recent tendencies of globe-trotting decadence. Wer900 • talk 23:27, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Speaking of decadence, I've always wanted to go to San Francisco, though I have little hair to put flowers in. Jonathunder (talk) 23:50, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

San Fran would be an excellent location. It would actually be a better international location than Sac....but you'd miss the one hundred plus weather of a Sacramento summer. LOL!--Mark Miller (talk) 23:53, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

This page is a wiki. If you are willing to help organize a bid for SF or any other feasible place, create a subpage for it. Jonathunder (talk) 01:14, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

• One hundred plus, eh? People were already looking a little flushed in Hong Kong. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:26, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Well then...San Fran would be a great change. Even in August, one should bring a sweater......and a lot of money as it ain't cheap there. ;-)--Mark Miller (talk) 01:40, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

• West Coast USA would be swell. Portland, Oregon might be a good locale also. Carrite (talk) 03:04, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Although that would be the third US location. So much for wmf:Resolution:Wikimedia Foundation Guiding Principles#Internationalism... -- Ypnypn (talk) 03:12, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh sorry. Didn't realize that we counted the number of times Wikimedia has its convention in the actual country of its origin. How stupid of me and others to suggest California as a location. Seems the state and country is only good enough for a laugh and the foundation's actual office but not its Wikimedia conventions. Sorry for suggesting such a ridiculous location for Wikimania. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mark Miller (talk • contribs) 03:20, 15 October 2013‎ (UTC)

@Ypnypn: It has been rotating: USA-Asia-Europe-USA-Asia-Europe... I suppose one could make an argument for Toronto, but West Coast USA seems more logical. Carrite (talk) 06:16, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

It would be great to see a Canadian bid: Toronto, or perhaps Vancouver. In fact, it would be good to see any bids at all develop from this discussion. Jonathunder (talk) 03:21, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

2015 should definitely be in San Francisco. The Wikimedia Foundation's traveling circus should stop living so fat, as a punishment for its utter failure in the rollout of VE and the general insufficiency of the encyclopedia. There are more pressing issues facing the foundation than faux "internationalism"; it's time to bring Louis XVI back to the Tuileries Palace. Wer900 • talk 05:04, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

As I live roughly halfway between San Francisco and Sacramento, I would be pleased with either. The advantages of Sacramento are many: much cheaper hotel rooms, more quirky, excellent and reasonably priced museums, much closer to the Sierra Nevada and Lake Tahoe, and just different for international visitors. Anyone who wants to visit San Francisco can be there in 90 minutes or so. And several of California's wine regions are close by. Yes, Sacramento can be hot in the summer, but it is dry heat and rarely oppressive. I like Sacramento, and had a wonderful visit to its historic Old Town and spectacular Railroad Museum just this past Saturday. Count me in for either location, as I could sing San Francisco's praises as well. I went to college in that wonderful town, lived and worked there for many years, and know it well. Cullen Let's discuss it 06:15, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Wellington, Somerset would be most convenient for me. According to our article, it boasts not only a range of cultural, sporting and religious sites, but also now an aerosol factory and bed manufacturers. Public transport links and prevailing weather are both dreadful. Arthur goes shopping (talk) 09:08, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

San Fransisco is not safe, if the Big One were to strike, it would wipe out most of the Misplaced Pages intelligentsia. Count Iblis (talk) 19:37, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

By that standard of risk-aversity, you probably don't want to have it anywhere else on Earth either, you never know when the Big One is going to hit all of us. Neutron (talk) 20:17, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Impacts are rare, and the probability of a disaster doesn't depend that much on the choice of the venuet. In contrast, the probability of a catastrophic earthquake during a Wikimania meeting in San Fransisco are not extremely small, about 1/2000.

Perhaps Barrow, Alaska would be a good place. It's pretty much equally convenient for most Wikipedians to visit. It's also an interesting place to visit, but few people would visit that place were it not for a meeting like this. Count Iblis (talk) 20:37, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

This place is even better. The airport is nearby and it has good accomodation. Count Iblis (talk) 02:48, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Jesus, I just wanted to know the process for the selection of the places where Wimimania is held. Miss Bono 14:09, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

I'd love a pointer to the latest information on that as well. Traditionally a committee (somewhat self-selecting) considered bids from various cities, looking at a variety of factors. I heard (but just from one person) that going forward the process is changing, I think because the old way had too many hurt feelings and wasted work by volunteers putting together bids (venue, sponsorship packages, etc). But I do not know what is official at this point.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:28, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Hey Jimbo, thanks for answering Miss Bono's question directly. And I feel I should apologize to Miss Bono if anything I did was part of the frustration you expressed. I am showing my frustrations in real life here and that is just wrong and I need to remember I am frustrated with outside situations and not Misplaced Pages in this regards. I would love to attend a Wikimania, as I am sure you would and if such a convention can be held in Cuba....I would so support that. Seriously.--Mark Miller (talk) 01:32, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Jimmy Wales, you are TEH SOLE FOUNDER, God-King, and Constitutional Monarch of Misplaced Pages. Please use your reserve powers when appropriate, and realize that it is the role of the Foundation, ultimately, to decide the location and provide the funding for Wikimania. Your comment reminds me of Gandhi's declaration of war in Civilization V: "I have just recieved reports that my troops have crossed your borders." If this comment was intended as a joke, then humor has its place, but it doesn't seem like it. Wer900 • talk 01:46, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I guess it's a bit tricky that one, then. Thanks. Miss Bono 14:35, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

As mentioned above, m:Wikimania 2015 bids#Timeline is probably the best source of information currently. --MZMcBride (talk) 17:14, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

After HongKong and London there would be a pretty good case for going back to the americas in 2015, Sacramento would be longhaul from the two preceding venues which is good. But a problem with the US is that visas will be almost as difficult as in London. That excludes people from quite a large chunk of the world. I suspect that Mexico, South Africa or maybe somewhere in South America would be easier to get everyone too as well as being in parts of the world we've never been to or not been to for years. We had a number of people excluded from DC last year because they couldn't get visas to enter the US, and presumably wikimania on the US West coast would have the same problem. ϢereSpielChequers 20:33, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Gosh...after reading Cullen328 wonderful and accurate description of Sacramento....I think I will actually look into the process and see how a bid is made. You see Sacramento has a few other advantages for those coming outside the US. We are only a three hour drive to Yosemite, about a 2 hour drive to Carmel, Monterey, Santa Cruz etc. and as was mentioned a few times....as a metropolitan city it may be the least expensive location you could in California. As the capitol of the State of California we actually have many, many museums. The Crocker Art Museum just expand and there are plans to build a new museum close by and create a small museum district. We have entertainment in many forms, Opera, ballet, symphony (I think the symphony is still around) and live theatre that includes many professional and semi professional venues. One other thing...by 2015, Sacramento may well have its new downtown arena for the Sacramento Kings. If 2015 is not a good fit for Sac, perhaps 2016. If the arena is finished it may be a perfect venue for Wikimania.

Also...sorry for the sarcasm in my post a little way up. Got a little put off by a response I wasn't prepared for.--Mark Miller (talk) 21:15, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Somewhere poor and hence cheap would both help counter systemic bias and make it more accessible to those who arent rich (or their parents when thinking of younger ppl), Hong Kong and London are extremely expensive as are suggested options of San Francisco and Sacramento, making this event NOT open to everyone♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 01:56, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Of course...we are not actually deciding on the next venue here, but....any locvation chosen would mean someone would not be able to attend. Sacramento...is still the least expensive suggestion yet made. I for one....would fight very hard for that venue. Sacramento is probably the least expensive venue ever suggested. Although, I am all ears to anyone that would suggest otherwise.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:16, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Clearly it should be in Montgomery, Alabama. The weather is sometimes great, the BBQ is excellent, we have at least two hotels downtown, and we are both the Cradle of the Confederacy and the birthplace of the Civil Rights Movement. Plus, I have a pool. Cullen, pack your swimmies for you and Mrs. Cullen. As it happens I just ordered four bags of grits so I can feed a couple of people, and I'll get some extra Conecuh sausage for Beeblebrox. Jimbo can stay with us, in "grandma's bedroom", and Moonriddengirl can finally meet her illegitimate son. Drmies (talk) 04:51, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

I spent three days in Alabama working a business deal a quarter of a century ago, Drmies, and resolved to visit again at least once each 27 years, so I'm ready. Please be aware that Sacramento has plenty of Motel 6, McDonald's and a centrally located Greyhound Bus depot. But I guess that Montgomery also enjoys such amenities. Cullen Let's discuss it 05:14, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Screw Sacramento and SF. I'll go where the BBQ is best! ;)--Mark Miller (talk) 05:38, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Montgomery and Sacramento both sound like interesting places. You need good transport links, ideally including many international routes to a nearby airport, and ideally in walking distance of each other, you need: Accommodation for circa 1,000 people with a range from dorm style for most editors to very high end for WMF staff and trustees; One auditorium that can fit everyone (though you only need that in the mornings - in Buenos Aires they used a cinema that was normally empty in the day; A conference venue with several rooms that can take a couple of hundred people each; and Party venues. One way to deal with the visa issue would be to alternate between open and closed countries so anyone excluded by visas one year could attend the following year. As the UK is about as closed as the US that would mean a 2016 bid for Montgomery or Sacramento with 2015 somewhere open like Cape Town, Bali or Tbilisi. ϢereSpielChequers 18:27, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh. Well. That all sounds a bit fancy. Plus, we don't do "walking distance" in the South...but WSC, you're also always welcome around the pool, at cocktail time. Drmies (talk) 18:38, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Drmies, that's really nice of you. Mrs WSC and I don't have a pool here in London, but we can certainly rustle up cocktails if you are ever in town (I do have a pond though and I've just realised we should make a video of the tadpoles next spring). ϢereSpielChequers 22:59, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

• Well, if it's Bali, I won't have to beg WMF on my knees for a scholarship next time. Heck, if I took the bus I'd be able to cover travel for less than $50. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:23, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

That was my thinking for SF and Sac as I am not involved at the same level as others to be accepted when I last applied. So I didn't for the last Wikimania, but anything within driving distance...I'm there. Still thinking that Sacramento needs a serious look.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:44, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

• • Wikimania in Northern California would be wonderful. I live in the southernmost part of the Napa Valley, so Sacramento is a great location for me, being an hour away from home. I would consider San Francisco for the location to be somewhat of a conflict of interest (please do not throw tomatoes at me). The airport in Sacramento is most excellent. FYI I may not be a prolific editor or recognized by many, but I am totally dedicated to Misplaced Pages and I have met many of the SF staff and respect them greatly. ChesPal (talk) 03:51, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Excessive sitting impairing health

Template:Formerly

This is a big problem for Wikipedians. Count Iblis (talk) 17:29, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, Iblis, if you want to spend more time away from your PC then that would suit me just fine ;) - Sitush (talk) 17:49, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Pedestal desk. Tim AFS (talk) 00:59, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

My reply is in four parts.

(1) The proposed heading Excessive sitting impairing health is adequately brief and adequately informative.

• Microcontent: How to Write Headlines, Page Titles, and Subject Lines

(2) It is possible to stand while using a computer.

• Ergonomics: Stand By Your Computer (Your Health May Depend on It) | Lateral Action

(3) A well-designed program of physical training can help an editor to edit efficiently and to participate calmly in discussions.

• Misplaced Pages:Ergonomics (red link now)

(4) Many modern economies are very dependent on automation.

• User:Wavelength/About society/Holistic economics

—Wavelength (talk) 04:47, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

My second reply has four parts.

(5) The United States National Library of Medicine has published information on measured sedentary time.

• Amount of Time Spent in Sedentary Behaviors in the United States, 2003–2004

(6) Joseph Mercola has published information on how to be active in the office.

• How to Stay Active in the Office | Working Tips

(7) Category:Ergonomics contains "Active sitting" and "Computer-induced medical problems" and "Kneeling chair" and "Riding-like sitting" and "Saddle chair".

(8) "Companies such as Google and Wikimedia have expressed serious concern and have since purchased the multi-award-winning Locus Workstation that was created by renowned designer Martin Keen, founder of Focal Upright Furniture." (underscore added)

• Sitting for 8 - 10 Hours a Day? Does Your Life Insurance Cover Your Sedentary Lifestyle?

—Wavelength (talk) 20:23, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

I am revising the heading of this section from Don't spend more than two hours sitting in front of your television, computer or laptop per day to Excessive sitting impairing health, in harmony with WP:TPOC, point 12 (Section headings). The new heading facilitates recognition of the topic in links and watchlists and tables of contents.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:01, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Deletion of Boyzone articles

Dear Jimbo Wales

Can you have a word with this user: https://en.wikipedia.org/User:Kww

He has deleted BZ20 and Love will save the day and in the past other boyzone tour articles. He is ruining boyzones information wikipedia. I understand he has authority on wikipedia and several people have contacted him but he seems to think he is above the law. A big problem he has is getting confused with a user who used to disrupt Boyzone articles called user 'pesf' and when people he doesn't recognise edit the boyzone articles he closes their accounts claiming them to be a sock puppet of pesf which is untrue. Please stop this user from disrupting the articles and make the BZ20 and Love will save the day articles on the Boyzone pages.

Kind Regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by Musictool (talk • contribs) 13:51, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

I encourage you to read WP:NCONCERT, as the tours cannot have pages unless they're documented by reliable sources that are independent of the subject. ZappaOMati 13:56, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

How do you know that the other users are not "pesf"? Do you know many of those other users? Regards, Iselilja (talk) 14:07, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

• Well, User:Musictool, I think this situation can be resolved within a few days, and independent sources can be found to show the Boyzone topics have notability for the new BZ20 album, but the song "Love Will Save the Day" might need to be a redirect to the album, at first. We have found user Kww to be reasonable, and I think will allow recreation of those pages, but perhaps under wp:AFC due to the prior problems with a banned user. Please understand once a page is embroiled over controversies with blocked/banned users, then the writing of the article becomes a much slower, tedious process requiring days to write, where formerly a few hours would have made similar progress. -Wikid77 (talk) 14:20, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

• I don't think that I am confused at all. The last two users I blocked, Boy2013 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Boy2014 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), were certainly illegitimate alternates of each other, and are about 99% certain to be Pesf. The Boyzone articles have been plagued by serial socking for a long time, and it's probable that Musictool is just another one of these socks.—Kww(talk) 14:44, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

You have over numerous times deleted boyzone articles for no good reason, you cannot delete peoples accounts who were not doing any damage. The least i would like to be done is for the Love will save the day and BZ20 albums to be made and in future block the user but don't delete the pages which has taken a long time to create. I have also noted that you KWW have deleted referenced information from the Boyzone article history. Musictool (talk) 15:11, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

If a page has been created by a blocked user, I will invariably delete it. That's the point, Pesf: you are blocked. You have been blocked dozens of times. That's a way of telling you to go away. Is there some part of "go away" that you have failed to understand? I will note for the record that one of your more recent socks, Boy2013 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), was not blocked by me: it was blocked by Kuru, who blocked you for disruptive editing and BLP violations. He didn't even recognise that it was just you again. Now please go away.—Kww(talk) 15:17, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Kww, I suggest unless you present your evidence for this to be a sockpuppet that you cease and desist from referring to editors by another user name. Whereas Wikid has given you AGF for being a reasonable person, I will not given some questionable history of your own. And now- que personal attack about MY history as opposed to any mention of proof regarding "sockpuppetry", I hope you take the high road and prove me wrong, I'll apologize. However, I shouldn't have to goad you and trap you in this manner to force you to show evidence after the fact; you really should be more mature than using one editor name for another with no evidence shown.Camelbinky (talk) 18:28, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

The contribution history is sufficient evidence, Camelbinky. It's not a sign of immaturity to recognize an obvious sock. Did you bother to examine Pesf's contribution history and writing style and compare it to Musictool, Boy2013, and Boy2014 before making a contribution here? Or maybe scan Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Pesf/Archive to see if any obvious patterns become apparent to you?—Kww(talk) 18:54, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Is this about the visual editor again? John lilburne (talk) 19:01, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Kww, the last sock reported was on June 19, 2012. Shouldn't these accounts be reported to SPI rather than automatically blocked indefinitely? The process exists for a purpose. If you were right, it should be easy to prove you were. Liz 21:27, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

SPI is a process for editors to gain attention from administrators and checkusers. SPI isn't required (or even recommended) for obvious socks. SPI would go into immediate overload if every sock was taken through SPI, Liz. I process them directly, sometimes because I notice them, and sometimes because other editors that know I'm familiar with a particular sockmaster report them directly to me.—Kww(talk) 21:35, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes. SPI does indeed exist for a purpose, or to be more precise for two purposes: (1) for an editor who sees that there is reason to believe there is sockpuppetry, but is not an administrator and so can't deal with it to ask for admin help, and (2) for an admin who thinks there is evidence of sockpuppetry, but thinks there is some doubt to ask for either further opinions to help decide, or checkuser evidence, or both. There is always a backlog of SPI cases waiting to be dealt with as it is, and the whole system would break down if we started requiring admins to put every case through SPI, even perfectly obvious ones. Also, there is a good reason for not giving full explanation of all the evidence, namely that doing so would tell the sockpuppeteers how to avoid giving themselves away if they go on to create further sockpuppets. Finally, in this case it is totally unnecessary to say what the evidence is, because it is perfectly visible in the editing history. JamesBWatson (talk) 21:45, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Okay, just so I'm 100% clear. Will any account that is a fan, a SPA, for this boy band, will they be assumed to be a sock, too? Of course, I don't want the SPI system to crash. But the only way that these accounts seem to be the same individual is they edit the same articles. So, what is to distinguish a non-sock Boy Zone fan from a sock one? I don't for one minute doubt you have a great deal of Admin experience, I'm just AGF of new accounts that might want to edit these articles. Thanks for the information. Liz 22:25, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

No, not every new editor who shows up at that article will be blocked on sight. But people are habitual creatures, and long-time editors who deal in topic areas habituated by socks and single-purpose accounts will pick up on people's tendencies...similar language, tone, the nature of what is being added, etc... If Grundle2600 shows up in a Barack Obama-related article, I and several others can spot him a mile away, for example. Tarc (talk) 22:30, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, for example, I've recently had multiple brand new accounts come to my talk page to try to get an article on a very obscure 16-year-old Indian programmer undeleted. If a legitimate new account decided to create an article on this kid, they'd probably get blocked per the WP:DUCK test, but it's not too likely a lot of unrelated accounts will come along to do that. Mark Arsten (talk) 23:35, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Okay, Tarc & Mark. I realize that after a few years, socks and trolls become easier to spot and you both have more experience than I do. But I also think that when one watches a topic, looking for violations, it's likely one will find them. When one is on the look out for socks, every new user is scrutinized in a way that doesn't happen normally.

My thinking goes this way: A false negative just means that a sock or troll continues to post for a while until their intentions become evident to all. But a false positive results in a new Editor receiving an indefinite block, out of the blue. Being trigger-happy (and I've seen new Editors indefinitely blocked after two edits), might prevent vandalism but could also be driving away inexperienced users. It takes more than a few days (or few weeks, or a few months!) before one achieves "competency" in editing Misplaced Pages. I think one should not assume malice when it's really just a user who is new and makes mistakes.

Sorry for being preachy. It's just for the long-term vitality of WP, I think Editor retention outweighs potential vandalism. IMHO. Liz 16:48, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

I think you're taking a very narrow approach to editor retention. "False-negatives" are not as harmless as you've suggested. It's important to recognize that by allowing abusive sockpuppetry, we're hurting editor retention. Good editors quit all the time because they get tired of dealing with abusive sockpuppetry.

I don't know whether you've ever tried to edit an article in the face of coordinated sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry. I don't know whether you've ever had the experience of arguing a content point with an editor/editors, only to discover after weeks or months of dispiriting discussion that the editor is a sockpuppet of a previously banned editor. These experiences are intensely frustrating. We lose good editors because we don't handle sockpuppetry effectively. All the time.

And more insidiously, the good editors who stay become reluctant to touch certain topic areas or articles, because they're infested by sockpuppets and whenever anyone tries to address the situation they're told to "AGF". There is an editor-retention issue here, but I don't think it's the one you've outlined. MastCell  18:03, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

MastCell, no, I don't know what it's like to battle a sock puppet but I read over the Rupert Sheldrake Talk Page and I think I see socks arguing on both sides of the issue. It makes me dizzy trying to follow a thread of conversation.

But while I might have a narrow approach, I think you are overstating how big a sock problem WP has. This is because that, for the Editors who fight vandalism, they see bad behavior every time they log on to WP because, well, they go out looking for it. When you're constantly swatting flies, it's easy to think that the whole world is full of flies. But I'd guess that 00.001% of Wikipedians are involved in fighting vandalism. I'd guess most Editors rarely encounter it unless they choose to edit in contentious topical areas.

And while I don't have the data to back up that claim, you don't have evidence that good editors have quit WP because of sockpuppetry. I imagine you can think of one or two examples but considering the tens of thousands of editors at WP, that is a drop in the bucket. Liz 19:50, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

• No, they won't. Boy2013 nearly got past me, and it wasn't until Boy2014 came along that I was convinced. I'm not going to publicly explain what Boy2014 did that was so compelling, but he had a couple of behaviours that identified him as Pesf that went beyond editing Boyzone articles, as did Musictool. Of course, once he was confirmed, connecting the dots between Boy2014 and Boy2013 was trivial.—Kww(talk) 23:06, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

I once caught a sock puppet on my talk page. I was pretty sure it was a sock but kept engaging the two different accounts until they slipped up and replied to a question to one user without logging out from the one account to log into the other and replied as the other persona on the wrong account. Since it was obvious to everyone reading the page as well as the admin, it didn't need an SPI report. Ever since then I tend to attempt to engage both users I suspect as socks at the same time and watch how they respond. I figure if it worked by accident maybe it can work on purpose?--Mark Miller (talk) 23:49, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

As long as you're not so focused on catching suspected sockpuppets that you forget about the articles. If an addition is made, its from a RS that can be checked, then its a positive for the article (and, if it displays a less than NPOV, then edit to clarify). This phrase 'If a page has been created by a blocked user, I will invariably delete it' may reflect policy but if the info is kosher its an epic fail for Misplaced Pages. IMHO, zealotry in pursuing real or imagined socks shouldn't be allowed to detract from reasonable, verifiable and legitimate content, no matter how it got there. AnonNep (talk) 00:12, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Then why are all these blocks and bans still in place? That is implying that the blocking and banning policies are completely worthless - which they may well be, given how much the community in general allows such people to waltz right back in and do whatever they please. See User:Ryan kirkpatrick. User:Grundle2600 and many others as prime examples of this. --MuZemike 05:11, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

No idea. I find the quick-to-reach-for the block and ban-hammer negative and counter to the creation of a positive content-focused culture. How to roll it back? That's the hard question. AnonNep (talk) 18:52, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

• I'm just a little concerned that in the above conversation there are regular editors who don't appear to be able to recognise obvious socks. Seriously people, look a bit harder. Black Kite (talk) 00:16, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Not every regular Editor needs to be able to identify socks, Black Kite. Lots of users work on content and in areas that don't involve preventing vandalism. In fact, it's probably best if people who are skilled in identifying socks be the ones imposing blocks since a wrong identification results in an innocent Editor being blocked. It seems like the activity for a specialist, not a generalist. Liz 16:55, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

In response to the earlier msg and the above, I'd wager that the number of genuinely new editors who get caught in a mistaken-for-a-returning-sock is vanishingly small. Know what's a good test? See if they post anything on their talk page after the block. 99% of the time there are no follow-ip posts, no unblock requests of any sort since they know the gig's up. Tarc (talk) 18:27, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Tarc, I can only speak for myself but I first registered an account in 2007 and have edited on and off ever since (mostly logged out). But it is only since this summer, since I immersed myself in WP, that I even learned there is a MOS or what a noticeboard is. I have seen many block notices that never say how a block can be appealed! And in the case of socks, I don't think I've ever seen an instance when Talk Page access wasn't taken away. How is a new user supposed to know that they even can appeal, much less how?

So, you know what happens? A new editor comes in, makes some questionable edits--because they don't know what they are doing--and gets blocked for whatever reason (and it sometimes doesn't take much) for any length of time. What do they do? They create another account since the old one doesn't work any more and they don't know why because they don't realize that communication happens on this thing called a Talk Page (they may not even know they have a User Page). So, they return to work editing the articles they are interested in and if some astute Admin recognizes them from their previous account, then they are labeled a "sock" and receive an indefinite block. No appeal. So, what do they do when they find out that they can't log into this new account? Well, just forget it, they'll edit logged out. But once a user is labeled a "sock", there is no way they can participate on Misplaced Pages again without getting blocked. I have not seen any way that once a Editor receives a label like "troll" or "sock" or "puppet" or "disruptive" that it is ever possible to lose this label.

I think there is a major blind spot for long-time Editors and Admins that they assume all casual Editors have the same knowledge that they do...that they will know where to go for help, find answers or policies, file a complaint, or appeal a ban. They don't know all of this and without a direct link posted by a friendly and helpful fellow Editor, it's unlikely they'll stumble upon it. But, luckily, there are users who post welcome notices and give suggestions and warnings or engage new Editors on the Talk Pages of the articles they edit. I think a personalized gesture of help is responsible for more users becoming regular Editors than any other aspect of Misplaced Pages behavior. I know I remember the users who were kind to me when I was just learning the ropes. Liz 19:50, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Liz, the message a blocked editor receives automatically when they try to edit gives them instructions on how to appeal a block. The message in the block notice left on the talk page serves only to explain the reason.—Kww(talk) 21:46, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Good to know, Kww, thanks! Liz 00:27, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

The problem Liz describes seems worth to address. There may be many clueless editors who come to edit WP assuming "anyone can edit", but are not aware of talk page, user talk page etc. I think, the requirement of registering email should be made mandatory and if a new user messes up something. They can be sent a polite short email (in addition to talk page notice), which I am sure there are more chance of them reading it then a warning on the talk page.--Vigyani_talk 03:26, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Suggestion for clarity of authorship in an info box

Although there are responses on this page that are signed 'Jimbo Wales', I am doubtful that all such responses are actually authored by Jimbo Wales. That skepticism stems from my awareness that Jimbo has a busy life, and that many of these responses concern matters that could hardly interest him. It also stems from the actual tone and wording of these responses which suggest to me that at least some of these answers signed 'Jimbo Wales' are drafted by proxies, multiple authors who are probably Administrators and possibly limited to Administrators on ArbCom. In the interest of full disclosure, an ifo box at the top of this page should explain these details of authorship, and if it indeed is claimed that Jimbo himself authors all responses signed 'Jimbo Wales' that should be what is in that info box to allay skeptics like myself. Brews ohare (talk) 15:07, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

It's hard to respond to that without writing something that would look like a personal attack. Looie496 (talk) 16:02, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Who cares if someone else drafts a response for him, he's the one who's responsible for it so he probably makes changes/revisions as appropriate -- just like a speechwriter. So basically, you're asking if Jimbo adheres to WP:NOSHARE? Seems rather an insulting thing to ask an established (to say the least) editor. I think you should provide some diffs showing where you think the authorship is in dispute. Making such an accusation without providing evidence is rather cowardly (to say the least). Rgrds. --64.85.216.87 (talk) 16:49, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Assuming Jimbo isn't writing anything he posts is a terrible breach of AGF. KonveyorBelt 17:01, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

There is no breach of faith or whatever in suggesting that Jimbo has 'ghost writers'. It is a standard practice. For example, President Obama tweets all kinds of shit under his name that he has no knowledge of - it's done by his appointed agents. Supposedly if they go off the rails they will be admonished or replaced. Brews ohare (talk) 17:08, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Wait a minute, Brews — how do we know that you're really you asking this? And then again, am I really me answering you or is somebody else doing it because I'm too busy in real life writing about VOKS or a piece on something that Leon Trotsky wrote in the early 1920s? Carrite (talk) 17:14, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Carrite: You are trying to make this thread a form of entertainment, I see. Whether I am responsible for these remarks signed 'Brews_ohare' is somewhat different in importance from Jimbo (the face of WP) actually saying something, or merely some minion acting in his stead. For example, if one has a dispute with Admins and brings it to this page thinking to obtain a 'higher level' opinion, that hope is somewhat dampened if in fact one ends up talking to exactly the same Admin, but now wearing a Jimbo hat. Brews ohare (talk) 17:27, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

It is entertaining. You're spouting a conspiracy theory that responses from Jimbo are drafted by a cabal of highly-trusted ArbCom members who are authorised to secretly speak on his behalf, without evidence, and claiming that even if your theory is false it has to be legitimised by an infobox stating so. LFaraone 17:38, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

My goodness - now the standard practice of 'ghost writing' is elevated to the level of conspiracy and cabals! All that is suggested here is that it be made clear whether Jimbo actually authors all comments over his name on this page, or not. Brews ohare (talk)

WP:NOSHARE is pretty clear, and unsubstantiated accusations of violating that are disappointing to see here. LFaraone 17:55, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

The really odd thing about this idea is that "Jimbo" (who I am firmly convinced is really Jimbo) doesn't edit this page much at all -- probably not more than a couple of hours a month. It baffles me why there would even be a suspicion. Looie496 (talk) 18:19, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Noting that trying to out the owner of Misplaced Pages as being somebody else is a breach of policies. And how do we know the OP isn't being ghostwritten himself? Should everyone have a userbox? KonveyorBelt 18:32, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

"Owner of Misplaced Pages"? - 2001:558:1400:10:B0B6:DB50:81:D4CC (talk) 20:51, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

He is the chairman of the Wikimedia Foundation. Bantering about semantics does not make Konveyor Belt's point any less correct. I, JethroBT 20:58, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Reading this nonsense is like sitting through the entire 10 hours of trollolol. Tarc (talk) 18:34, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree. This is troling. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flin the flan warrior (talk • contribs) 18:50, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Looks like Brews is right after all, clearly Flin the flan warrior = Jimbo :) . Count Iblis (talk) 20:07, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

How do we know that Brews ohare isn't 17 different people, who took turns writing that post above? The question has no merit if its all about "skepticism stems from my awareness that Jimbo has a busy life, and that many of these responses concern matters that could hardly interest him." Really, you find it hard to believe someone on an encyclopedia site would not have a broad range of interests or be able to simply comment on a subject here even if the actual subject doesn't interest him much. Tis really silly.--Mark Miller (talk) 21:14, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Actually many different people did take turns writing that post :). Count Iblis (talk) 00:51, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Anything is possible. ;-)--Mark Miller (talk) 01:39, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

"You are trying to make this thread a form of entertainment" ... "Are you making a mockery of me, Vimes?" "No Sir, but I may be assisting." --Demiurge1000 (talk) 03:23, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Anonymous opinion about the state of Misplaced Pages

I full expect for some admin or even Jimbo to delete this because they just don't want to hear it. But I am going to say it anyway for those that actually care about the future of the project.

For some time now it has been apparent that Misplaced Pages has fallen into a disreputable state. When the project first started and for several years after people participated in a meaningful project and they felt happy to volunteer their time. Today however things are much different. Editors and admins leave in droves. New editors are run off or don't bother with the project at all. The WMF themselves don't trust the editors here and that was evidenced by the Visual Editor release and followon discussions. The community doesn't trust the WMF for the same reasons. Editors who attempt to help are told to go away in one way or another and that their help isn't wanted or appreciated. That includes active long term editors.

Jimbo, its time for you and the WMF to get your act together and fix this place. Stop ignoring all the problems, start enforcing the rules fairly and stop playing favorites. Stop allowing the admins to do whatever they want without impunity. Put an end to the us and them mentality between editors and admins, the abuses and the croniism and protectionism. Stop protecting all the content and blocking every IP and start trusting editors again. Stop the WMF from releasing broken, unreliable and untested software on the community and forcing the community to clean up the mess. If you do even some of these things, Misplaced Pages editing will pick back up again. Not right away, but they will. People will enjoy editing again. As it is the project is doomed to failure because the community can't fix it and you and the WMF refuse to admit there is even a problem. Act now before Misplaced Pages becomes the next MySpace and is nothing more than a memory. There is a lot more but since this will just be deleted or closed by someone I'll leave it there. --Just another worthless IP editor! 138.162.8.59 (talk) 18:41, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

See new: wp:Template editors, a massive improvement which allows dozens of users to make widespread improvements in hundreds of templates. -Wikid77 20:50, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Just about every group I've been involved with has members who pine for the "good ol' days". In just about every case, they identify a problem, such as editors leaving, which is in fact, a problem, but they leave the impression that it is a recent problem, as opposed to a perennial one, and spout vague generalities on how to solve it. Do you honestly think Jimbo is sitting around twiddling his thumbs, thinking to himself "I know exactly how to solve all problems, but will no one urge me to do something? That's all I ask, can someone please tell me it is time to fix the problems?" --SPhilbrick(Talk) 18:55, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

I think if Jimbo or the WMF wanted to do something and believed it was a problem, they would do something. However, they give the impression that they can't be bothered by the petty problems of the community and couldn't possibly get involved. Yes they can and should, given that the community has repeatedly failed to fix any of these problems. Admins continue to abuse their tools and no one does anything. Sometimes even justifying the abuse. The WMF routinely releases broken software without doing even basic testing in a proper test environment. Editor assholery is on the rise all around the project as edits, editors and collaboration are in steep decline. Editors that do offer to help are told to go away, or told they can't be trusted, or etc., etc. There are serious problems throughout the project and those that notice and try and fix it are accused of trolling, told they are just being dramatic or being DIVA's. Some are even blocked. And we wonder why editing is down and the editing environment here is so miserable? Jimbo himself has acknowledged several of these are problems in the past and has stated he would look into them or do something about them. We are still waiting. So either he doesn't care, or he is simply too busy to get involved and doesn't really care what happens. Much the way many of us feel these days. 138.162.8.57 (talk) 19:13, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Every attempt at top-down problem-solving on Misplaced Pages is immediately shot down by "the community" as a usurpation of its authority. Then, when the problem persists, "the community" complains about the lack of top-down problem-solving. This pattern existed back in the notional "good old days", although it's worse now because we've waged a gradual war of attrition against our sane, clueful subset of contributors. MastCell  19:45, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Attempts at top-down problem-solving on Misplaced Pages are not 'immediately shot down by "the community" as a usurpation of its authority'. They are shot down by the admins and admin wannabees that habituate the drama boards as a usurpation of admin authority. It is the admins and drama board inhabitants that control the scope and powers assigned to the admins. The result now is hundreds of admins, including some thoroughly unsuitable admins, wielding draconic powers over the people who try to build the encyclopaedia. Bizarrely, these people are appointed for life. Admins are desopped only if they do something that offends other admins. No admin, in the history of Misplaced Pages, has been desopped for uncivil behaviour towards content editors. That fact alone highlights the miserable status of the people who actually write Misplaced Pages. No change that is not in the direction of tightening the admin stranglehold is now possible, and most admins seem very happy with the situation. Misplaced Pages is slowly grinding to dust in the blaze of admins mutually preening each other. --Epipelagic (talk) 03:27, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

That's partly true. Its also true, though unfortunate, that the community is incapable of changing it themselves. Nearly countless discussions and RFC's are a testemant to that failure. Its also true that allowing the WMF to act is bad, but the community is all but forcing that outcome by its ongoing incompetence and failure to act. These problems need to be addressed. So IMO, the community can either take action on these problems and begin fixing them or they can sit down and shut up when the WMF steps in and does it for them. Which IMO should include some WMF oversight of the Admin cadre running around here. There are a lot of good admins, most in fact, but its a handful of strong armed A-holes that are giving the other 1380 a bad image. People turn down RFA's for the very same reasons they allow these admins to get away with. If they aren't going to take the tools away from an admin that does the same things, then they shouldn't tell a user they can't have access to the tools for that reason. Its really just common sense. Of course there is a very long list of problems here in the project and nothing will fix them all. But if someone doesn't do something, a future article is going to be on The history of Misplaced Pages (past tense). I don't doubt a lot of people just think I am full of shit writing this and don't think there is a problem. But I don't agree and I felt it was time to be vocal about fixing it.....again. 138.162.8.59 (talk) 20:04, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

138.162.8.59, I agree that there are problems at Misplaced Pages. But I spent a fair amount of the summer going back into archives and reading old ARBCOM cases and archived Talk Pages and noticeboards and, you know what? Editors were always complaining that WP wasn't as good as it used to be...I saw it in comments and remarks from 2005, 2008, 2010, 2011 and now 2013. And I kind of doubt that the years from 2001-2004 were perfect either. The real WP is always going to be far less than the ideal WP and conditions are never as exciting as when a user first starts seriously editing articles.

That doesn't undermine your real assessments that there are problems that are being ignored that WMF needs to look at. But it puts into perspective, that there will always be Editors leaving (for a variety of reasons) and, remarkably, every day, new people create accounts. It may not be at the same levels at 2005-2007 but it still happens.

But like any organization, especially one with over 200 wiki projects, the problems and answers are never simple, there is no magic pill. But, I agree with you that a starting point is one of mutual respect and to treat Editors with questions as being part of the solution, not part of the problem. Liz 20:13, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

A possible way out could be to create a copy of Misplaced Pages that would initially have the

same content but which operates according to different rules, basically a beta version of Misplaced Pages. The community then decides the rules for the beta version, but they are then more likely to approve suggestions to be tested in the beta version rather than implemented right away. Count Iblis (talk) 20:22, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Another comment on so-called "golden ages." I wasn't around when Misplaced Pages started, but it always surprises me when people talk this way because I seriously doubt these ages were actually perfect or ideal in any real sense of the term. They were certainly different, and had different challenges. Editors were certainly signing up left and right, and I'm sure many were enthusiastic about participating, but that doesn't mean the problems went away. If we look back at the RfCs about Misplaced Pages in 2005, what I see are accusations about ArbCom failing to do their job, edit-warring over WP:IAR and WP:BEBOLD, and complaining about anonymous editors. Does that sound like any kind of "golden age" to anyone? There certainly isn't any way to make the current community and structure of Misplaced Pages more like it was before (I'm not even sure what this would even mean). I'm still happy to volunteer my time here because I think this project, even with its current challenges and flaws, is a net positive for the world, and I'm sure many would agree with me. I, JethroBT 20:25, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Absolutely. To argue by analogy: Among National Hockey League fans of a certain age, there is a common group complaint about how poor the game has become relative to the "golden age" of the 1980s. Most often, they complain about how the modern NHL is much less offensively-minded than the 1980s league was. There are many arguments put forward as to why, but a dilution of talent is most often blamed. The irony is that in truth, the talent level has massively increased. But so has systems play. Coaching has improved. Training regimens are light years beyond that of 25 years ago. New styles have been adopted. Cumulatively, this has resulted in an NHL that is quite likely at its all-time peak for overall skill. And yet, people reminisce about the "good old days" because hockey is a game of mistakes. Better players make fewer mistakes and that means fewer goals. I grew up on teh 0s NHL, but looking back, the product simply can't stand up to today. I find that Misplaced Pages is much the same. The free-for-all days of 2005 are gone. Time and necessity have simply made editing more difficult because we needed to become less tolerant of vandalism and unreferenced content. Because there are fewer unexplored topics to mass create articles in. Because of increased requirements on sourcing. As a result, the average editor today has to be more skilled than in the past. And that, naturally, will force out those who could not keep up, or those who aren't patient enough to learn and adapt. Resolute 22:40, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages doesn't place content limits on you, you chose to do that by narrowing the topics you're willing to create content in. 'Because there are fewer unexplored topics to mass create articles in'. Take your preferred topic, go back to the early 1900s or 1800s, where opportunities and (oddly enough, because of online newspaper archive programs) sources a plenty, and new creation options, are there. You don't have to do it. But that isn't a limit of Misplaced Pages. AnonNep (talk) 23:11, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

LOL! I love the irony of this, because one of my more common editing areas has been early hockey history topics, researched by and large through news archives. You have no idea how many hours I spent in front of microfilm readers to research what may well be the most comprehensive history of the Calgary Tigers in the world.  ;) As to your central point, I will continue with my NHL analogy. When I started here, less than half of the players in NHL history had articles. Today, every one does, right back to the league's 1917 founding. I created our structure for team-season articles. As a group, we spun out a well defined structure of lists for each NHL team. Man, it really was the glory days. Creation is easy, but in terms of editing articles related to the NHL, that low hanging fruit has been picked. I've created over 300 articles in my time, but probably less than a dozen in the last three years because editing in my topic area has come to require a higher level of skill. I've moved from being a page creator to a featured content writer. Look to your own advice, and consider that you are telling me to go look to the obscure. I don't disagree with your suggestion on its face, because you are right that Misplaced Pages itself is still missing several mass topic areas. However, those topics are likewise growing increasingly obscure. They often require esoteric interests and a heightened desire and willingness to research. Resolute 23:27, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Where's the LOL!? Did you expect me to stalk you before I replied or take you on face value? The idea that Misplaced Pages is near complete and is only missing 'several mass topic areas' with the rest being 'increasingly obscure'. Well, I'd leave that to uninvolved observers to decide. But I certainly don't believe that inclusion has been achieved, in terms of notability guidelines, outside of the broader age-range of editors, or in high-interest topic areas. Or is this just another way of saying 'Go away, stop causing trouble, it works for us, we've got this, we don't need you here'? AnonNep (talk) 23:54, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

No, I don't expect you to stalk my edits. Your assumptions were fair and logical. I simply am one of the few people who already routinely do that sort of research. I meant no offence, was just enjoying that aspect of it. Also, I never said Misplaced Pages was "near complete". I said there are fewer avenues to mass create articles. Expansion and improvement are entirely different stories. And your conclusion is rather bizarre to me, because I don't see how that is a logical reading of my arguments. My point is that a confluence of factors, only one of which you seem to have focused on, has made it more difficult to edit Misplaced Pages. An average editor in 2013 requires more skills than an average editor in 2005 did. Resolute 00:20, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Not too sure what's 'bizarre'. The most obvious articles may be developed but there's a huge backlog, that meets notability, that hasn't been touched. One example: the (non BLP) Australian Dictionary of Biography]. The same skills that were needed in 2005 are needed, en mass, to complete these, (and its not the only similar project to-do list). That's probably where we'll disagree. AnonNep (talk) 00:32, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

• Renaissance of interest, empowered by template-editors and Lua: I noted months ago, there has been a strange phenomenon this year: several editors are re-asking for crucial improvements which were requested and abandoned years ago, such as adjusting the size of some over-large nation flag icons, which were finally fixed this year. It seems the problem has been the prior tedious workload to debug and test templates, Javascript wp:gadgets or wp:user scripts, and now Lua script modules. A handful of dedicated tech-admins have been installing or updating hundreds of technical changes to templates, or tools, but hundreds more updates were needed. Now, finally, with the new authorization of wp:Template editors and resetting protection levels on templates which they can edit, there has been a massive offering of support to fix templates, which can free extra time for the tech-admins to work on more Javascript gadgets or more Lua modules. Even while the RfC proposal to create the new template-editor right was being debated, the "renaissance" editors have continued to re-ask for even more improvements which were suggested years ago. Also remember, the Lua-based wp:CS1 cite templates and Lua-based infoboxes have allowed users to edit-preview (or reformat) major articles 3x-4x times faster than during the prior 3 years (I can personally confirm the massive 300% speed improvement from updating the Lua Module:Citation/CS1 to run 13x faster). A huge door has finally opened to fixing major bugs, and writing clever new tools to help users improve the articles much faster. -Wikid77 (talk) 20:50, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

  'Clever new tools' are sometimes the problem. While I support Template editors being given 'Admin tools' for protected templates, the changes can ripple on. For example, a decision to remove 'Influences/Influenced by' in the Author 'infobox' means that every article that footnoted the 'Influences/Influenced by' as the first named link showed an error in the reflist and was included in Category:Pages with broken reference names. Tools and bots serve their purpose but have nothing on human editing and so much of the automated edits seems to result in a delete of wiki content rather taking that extra time to check sources and re-phrase as needed. Those 'tools', in the hands of Admins, or as autos for editors, or bots, bring their own problems and aren't the magic way forward. AnonNep (talk) 21:15, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

NB. Should add - its a general problem for infoboxes. Because that's where the first source is often added, and named, when a category is removed from an info box, not only is the content lost but anything using that name="" as a source is read as an error and has to be corrected. Not just specific to 'author' infoboxes. AnonNep (talk) 21:21, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, the tools can be misused: a hammer can bend a nail or wire snips can cut a wire too short, but try to build a fence without a hammer or wire cutters. Too many people forgot which tools are needed to simplify work. An automobile in need of repairs needs more than a paintbrush to visually-edit the surface of the car, much more. -Wikid77 22:18, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

But without that initial content all the tools in the world won't help you. That's why so many appear so negative - they're about editing (deleting) what's already there not about the hard grind of building the car in the first place. AnonNep (talk) 22:34, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Be careful with such generalizations. Many users, like myself, are more comfortable with organizing, expanding, improving, and fine-tuning what is already out there than creating new articles all the time (not to say that I don't do the latter, it's just not that often). The former requires collaboration, which is what we should be about. --MuZemike 23:50, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

It was responding to the analogy (& generalisation) of the previous poster. AnonNep (talk) 00:02, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

BTW, not too sure where you got the idea content creation isn't about collaboration. That's certainly not my view. AnonNep (talk) 00:10, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Let me clarify that content creation doesn't imply lack of collaboration. You certainly can invite additional collaboration by creating new content or expanding on old content. The point I'm trying to make is that all content can be modified by others – that's part of our CC-BY-SA license! There are also some common sense and community norms that we're expected to follow. Some people are inclined to create, others are inclined to maintain and edit, etc. --MuZemike 00:33, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't disagree. Going back to the original topic, I feel that a balance between adding content (creation/collaboration/expanding/editing) seems to losing a battle against a negative culture of deletion of articles, auto patrol (usually for delete) & bot-based deletion, editor blocks and bans. I don't like the later, accept it is often justified, but feel the balance is increasingly tipping towards that negative with little in the way of change/proposed-change to stop that occurring. AnonNep (talk) 00:48, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Jesus Kumioko. Are you retired or aren't you? And if you are, why don't you go out and enjoy life? Resolute 22:15, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

@Resolute, believe it or not, not every IP that posts about Misplaced Pages being a cesspool and it needing to be changed is me in disguise. I realize that I am just an untrustworthy loser in the eyes of many and that AGF is all but a memory these days but I didn't know or care about this discussion until I got an email notification that you had mentioned me here. With that said, I do agree with the IP in most respects. As for my retirement, that was due largely to the actions of the WMF with Visual editor (so until they can unscrew that disgrace I wouldn't want them to touch a thing), the communities desire to destroy WikiProject United States rather than help build it as a collaboration and due to the communities desire for me to not participate. I would also note that as much as you despise me we actually have a lot in common. We are both experienced Wikipedians with a lot of knowledge about the project, we can both by DICKs and we have both pissed off a lot of editors. What differs between us though is that you are an admin and have been since they gave it out to anyone who asked whereas I waited too long when they were getting more strict. If you reran in today's environment (along with a good number of other admins BTW) you probably wouldn't pass either. That's part of the problem here adn why admin abuse is so rampant. We can get rid of the buggers once they build a nest. Another area where we differ is that where you see things are wrong with the site you do nothing and I speak up...fervently. You can say I am a dick, but you can't say I didn't try to make things better. In real life I am the person that makes things happen, I take charge. You strike me as the kind of person I lead in real life. Smart,educated and experienced but no drive and no desire to change things and make them better. Just a hider and slider. I say that so that you know, when you start talking trash about me retiring or trying to actively change this shitty editing environment, that it irritates me and at the same time I know that IRL I would probably be your boss. But here, your king shit. What's also funny is that it used to bother me. But somewhere along the way I realized that I am extremely successful IRL. I have a good job, a nice house, nice things and cars and a great family. Whereas a lot of the "leadership" admins here are jobless, homeless and/or worthless IRL. So that is why it doesn't interest me to be here anymore. I really enjoy a lot of the friends I have made on here and there are a lot of great people, but unfortunately the not so great ones are leading things here. Here you can't get promoted unless you hide and slide. If they can't succeed in life what makes people think they will lead this place to be anything other than a disaster? Kumioko (talk) 01:58, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Kumioko, the best advice I can give you at this point is to stop pretending that your repetitive complaints are socially redeeming, go write some articles for six months or so, and apply for the template editor user right. Whether or not you're willing to admit it in public, you know you can't stay from here for more than a week or so. Why not do something that will make editing here more pleasant for you in the long term, rather than the little junkie-like fixes of pleasure you get from attacking the people you don't like? I think many people who wouldn't necessarily support you as an admin would support you as a template editor, which is what you really want to do, especially if you'd been doing something concrete to improve the encyclopedia. Choess (talk) 03:12, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

'socially redeeming', 'little junkie-like fixes of pleasure' ... has there has been a secret committee that has decided its o.k. to stick the knife into this editor? AnonNep (talk) 03:25, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

I hope he's not. I like him and the project is better off having him than not having him. Enjoy life and edit WP!!! Carrite (talk) 01:34, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

• I'm old enough and jaded enough to realize that there really were no "good old days." This is universally true, Misplaced Pages not excepted. There have always been problems and there will always be problems. The thing is (and the haters at WPO howl when I say this) Misplaced Pages has improved over time. If you don't believe me, start hammering the RANDOM ARTICLE button and compare current state to the way the article sat in January 2010 or March 2008 or June 2005 or October 2003 or whatever "golden age of Misplaced Pages" you worship. No comparison — today's WP content is far, far better than the content of yesteryear. We know how the sausage is made, and that can cause one to lose one's taste for sausage — but there are tens of millions of people around the world who honestly like the sausage and whose lives are incrementally improved by being able to pick up a computer or a tablet or a smartphone anywhere, anytime and to obtain quick and accurate information about virtually any question they have. Misplaced Pages is a really good thing and it's getting better and better, even if it sometimes seems like the 3rd Godfather movie, with "The Family" getting smaller and smaller and constantly killing one another with lynch mobs at AN/I.

Moreover, "mass collaboration" per se has never been the source of excellent articles. Good content is the work of one or two or sometimes a few people working over time. The vaunted "crowdsourcing" might have powered Sangerpedia2001 (and let there be no mistake, that content sucked), but it has precious little to do with Misplaced Pages today. Misplaced Pages is the product of thousands of people who, independently and in isolation, care enough to write about something. If the drama is overwhelming, avoid the drama and just write something. Carrite (talk) 01:45, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Seconding what Carrite said. Edison (talk) 02:35, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

And a very strong third to that!--Mark Miller (talk) 02:45, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, things are improving (although slowly at times), and while we are out on tangent lines, let me note how the word "co-founder" can be used to claim Pontius Pilate as being the co-founder of Christianity. But meanwhile, back at the ranch, the ability to have more people authorized to perform {editprotected} requests will be more like the "golden age" where people could update pages faster, even asking others to quickly install an update within the hour. Agreed, many early pages had poor-quality content, but improvements were allowed in many pages very quickly, and that is a path to follow. -Wikid77 (talk) 03:18, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Wikid77, let me sat that I appreciate your excellent reporting on the technical aspects of the project. However, I find that you have unfounded optimism with regard to project governance. I urge you to examine the way in which the project is being run (off the rails), and use your technical updates to discuss political issues faced by the encyclopedia internally. Do not kowtow to the Official Party Line of many Misplaced Pages higher-ups that Misplaced Pages Is Always Improving And There Are No Deep Problems. Content-wise we are improving, but only incrementally; systemic reform is the only thing that can bring greater improvements to community order and editor retention, and these benefits will be reflected in an increased amount of good-quality content. Wer900 • talk 03:33, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Carrite's statements are true in almost every respect—however, as he knows (and acknowledges), Misplaced Pages has deep and grave systemic errors that are preventing it from anything more than incremental improvement over time. POV warriors are not dealt with expeditiously, and those who subvert the encyclopedia for their own aims are not adequately punished. Drama creators hold far more sway over AN/I than any administrator who feels the need to be an honest, diligent civil servant of the encyclopedia. Content is substandard in most articles, even to an extent in good and featured articles in non-academic areas, and there is no editorial board, governance structure, or judicial system to resolve disputes on the basis of a constitution. Thanks to the existence of the idiotic, unqualified ignore all rules policy, the spirit, not the letter, of the rules is undercut without justification by power users with cabals (note, I do not refer to a single Cabal, but multiple) built up around them, but the smallest procedural violation can send an ordinary user on course for a block. Capping all of this, AN/I dwellers, "power users", some of the members or ArbCom, and a good number of WMF employees covertly work against the aim of the encyclopedia for their own benefit. There is ample documentation of all of this on Wikipediocracy and in the press; rather than simply using the "bad site" non-argument, it would serve Jimmy Wales and the Foundation well to understand why some people oppose the direction of this community's governance. Paying lip service by saying "there are problems, but a committee must constitute a committee in order to promulgate the regulation (subject to community ratification) that will initiate the creation of a separate standing committee to oversee the review of Misplaced Pages policies and appoint a steering committee to holistically examine the ways in which policy modifications can be made, with conditions for a time limit created by the promulgating regulations and a final time limit created pursuant to these conditions by the standing committee." Wer900 • talk 03:33, 19 October 2013 (UTC)