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Untitled

I have reverted 3 edits by 2 IPs, deleting sources and infos. Tājik (talk) 15:42, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I've restored the original quote by Minorsky. Tājik (talk) 00:31, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

I've once again reverted unexplained deletions by an anon IP. Tajik (talk) 17:05, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

According to the Gumilyov L. (Bosphere and Etnogenesis of the Earth, Moscow, 2001) Shah ismail has purely turkic origin and his native language was Azerbaijani turkish. Therefore, He wrote in Azerbaijani turkish. Dear TAJIK, You have written that According to Minorsky Shah Ismail was bilingual at birth. Firstly, It must be shame for all of us, to say about Shah Ismail bilingual. Secondly, the Idea of Minorsky cannot be used here as a criteria. Therefore, I delete "Minorsky". Shah Ismail HAS TURKISH DIVAN and everybody knows that it was his native language.

Iraq

In Life and Political History section it writes: Baghdad and the holy Shi'a shrines of Najaf and Karbala were seized from the Ottoman Turks, lost and reconquered again.

I think this sentence must be revised. Ismail died in 1524. Iraq had never been a part of Ottoman Empire before 1524. Iraq was annexed by Ottoman Empire in 1534 , ten years after Ismail's death. So there was no conquest and reconquest of Iraq from Ottoman Empire. In fact, Ismail conquered Iraq from Murat Bey of Akkoyunlu Turkmens in 1508 Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 13:23, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

On Language

The text in the article now states that he was bilingual 'at birth'. Did he start speaking two different languages the moment he came out of his mother? If so, she might have been somewhat distressed. I think what is meant is either "his household was bilingual" or "he grew up bilingual".

70.18.16.154 (talk) 07:18, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Khatā'ī means Sinner ?

I did my best but could not find the Doerfer's article about the meaning of Khatā'ī . I think it may also be related to Khitan people that in Persian language it is written as Khatā'ī . --Alborz Fallah (talk) 16:17, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

His pen-name Khatā'ī is Arabic (Template:Lang-ar / Ḫaṭāʾī) and means "the one with errors". So the wider meaning of the name is indeed "sinner", but in a poetic way. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Khitan people or anything else.

Alborz is right. Khatai in Shah Ismail's writings refers to Khatai people not sinner. Ismail claimed to be infallible, shadow of god, and the hidden Imam how could he be a sinner? I spoke to a professor that teaches this subject and this is what she told me. --Critical M104 (talk) 13:36, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

POV pushing edits

I detected Ethnocentric attempt by User:Lysozym‎ and User:Xashaiar. Those edits: A, B etc. are POV pushing. It's very clear that their attempt is to remove the term of Shah of Azerbaijan. However this is historical fact. At first, Ismail became the "Shah of Azerbaijan". And then he became the shah of all of Iran. OK ?POV pushing edit. It's very clear your attempt is to remove the term of Shah of Azerbaijan. This is historical fact. First of all, he became the "Shah of Azerbaijan". And then he became the "Shah Iran". Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 10:52, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

And do you have any sources for the name "Abū l-Muzaffar bin Haydar as-Safavī" ? I couldn't find it in Reliable sources. Takabeg (talk) 11:01, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

• "...at Tabriz he was enthroned as Shah of Azerbaijan (1501)." Woodbridge Bingham, Hilary Conroy, Frank William Iklé, A History of Asia: Formations of civilizations, from antiquity to 1600, Allyn and Bacon, 1974, p. 116.
• "...became Shah of Azerbaijan in 1501 and Shah of Iran a year later." Curtis F Jones, Divide and Perish, AuthorHouse, 2011, p. 245.
• "...in July 1501 Isma'il was enthroned as shah of Azerbaijan." The New Encyclopaedia Britannica: Micropædia, Encyclopædia Britannica, 1991, p. 295.
  • Iran: the essential guide to a country on the brink, p. 56.
• "Becoming shah of Azerbaijan in 1501 after conquering Tabriz" The encyclopedia Americana, Volume 1, Grolier, 2000, p. 511.

Takabeg (talk) 11:17, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Ethnocentric? a) of the sources mentioned above, only can be considered relevant and reliable (Encyclopaedia Americana). There are much better sources available, such as Encyclopaedia Iranica, Cambrdige History of Iran, and so forth. Why do you not cite any of those? b) Modern national borders and self-understanding did not exist back then. Ismail did not identify himself as an "Azeri" or a "king of Azerbaijan". He identified himself as a "Safawi" and as a hereditary grandmaster of that movement. His first battles were meant to revenge his father. After defeating the Turkoman confederations, he realized the power vacuum and declared himself king of all of Iran. Read Minorsky or Savory. c) Even though this information is wrong (i.e. that he was "king of Azerbaijan"), it is still mentioned in the article. But it is irrelevant for the introduction. In a very short time, he established himself as the "King of Iran", and he was recognized as such by his Ottoman and Uzbek enemies. --Lysozym (talk) 18:52, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Expert attention

I was alerted that someone had changed all of the male pronouns to female. So I changed back, her to his, she to he, girl to boy, daughter to son. The problem is that in some passages it's not clear which is correct as a few of the people were female. Any knowledgeable person who can read through the sections and correctly align the pronouns with the individuals is welcome to make changes to the article.

Particularly confusing is this passage: "His father, Martha, was the son of Uzun Hasan by his Pontic Greek husband Theodora, better known as Despina Khatun. Theodora was the son of Empress John IV of Trebizond. (He had married Uzun Hassan in a deal to protect Trebizond from the Ottomans.) Ismail grew up bilingual, speaking Persian and Azeri." I have no idea whether husband, son, father are correct or were also incorrectly changed.

Thank you! Ocaasi 22:32, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Why would anyone do such a thing?! Can anyone explain? I recently studied Safavids so I'll look into this issue when I get a chance. --Critical M104 (talk) 13:40, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

answer to kurdish claims

A short explanation for that sided claims.--83.66.126.43 (talk) 12:58, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8usSxFs8Eo&feature=relmfu

Youtube is not a reliable source. Unflavoured (talk) 00:03, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

wrong

It wrongly states that Ismail converted Iran from sunni Islam to Ismaili shia Islam, which is wrong — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.143.179.68 (talk) 07:12, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that Iranians were not Sunni? Name of Omar was common in Iran before Safavids e.g. Omar Khayam

Kiumars Irani (talk) 08:11, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Ismail not a Kurdish

Kurdish root of Ismail have presented in only one historical resource but many others are rejecting this claim. I think, the most valuable resource about identity of Ismail is his "divan". He used to so pure Turkish in his divan. The only one claim can not be acceptable for mark him as "Kurdish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.104.51.158 (talk) 11:38, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Cambridge University unreliable source?

To the IP that continues to label what he does not like, Cambridge University Press is an acceptable reliable source. Richard Tapper is qualified as a scholar in this field. Continued attempts to label said source(s) will be considered disruptive editing and could lead to you being blocked. --Kansas Bear (talk) 16:07, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Logic vs Historians

Some of the references do not make any sense. E.g. Anthony Bryer, open citation, p. 136 says the Emperor of Trebizond gave his Christian daughter to a Sufi-Muslim high-priest who had no power or army to even protect himself let alone protecting the Trebizond Empire from the superpower of the world at the time (i.e. Ottomans)!

And what are the odds of the high-priest of a religion marring a woman from another faith (even today in the 21st century)? And then the wife goes to a Muslim country and builds churches and promotes Christianity! Do you know what kind of Shia bashing excuses it would have given to the Sunni Ottomans and 80% of the Iranian population that were Sunnis at the time? They would write 1000s of books about it and would burn the entire Shia community to death!

One look at the location of Trebizond on the map and its distance from Ardabil in Iran is enough to question the sanity of such claims. Use the Google map to check it yourself!

If you come to conclusion that the theory is insane then you must think why a so called historian has put it forward as a historical fact! Fortunately the genetic science can solve these puzzles soon! For the time being we need to rely on the good old method of analogical logic.

http://www.orderofsteugene.com/history/Trebizond.htm

Kiumars Irani (talk) 19:23, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

You should spend more time researching and less time ranting. All of these books state that John IV's daughter Theodora married Usun Hasan.

• The Byzantine Lady: Ten Portraits, 1250-1500, edited by Donald M. Nicol, page 121.
• The Papacy and the Levant, 1204-1571: The Fifteenth Century, Kenneth Meyer Setton, page 222.
• The Fall of Constantinople 1453, Steven Runciman, page 173. --Kansas Bear (talk) 20:30, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Shah Ismail was a great Turkish ruler!

Shah Ismail was a definitely Turk. Accepted view in the everywhere world is like this. Already himself wrote Turkish poems and in Turkish culture. And his ethnic origin was Azerbaijani Turkish, he was born in Turkish city Ardabil. Ardabil's the entire population is completely Turk. How then he was Kurd? Also Safavid State was famous for ruled with Turkish culture and used Turkish Language! 94.123.98.229 (talk) 10:58, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Seriously? That's like saying the Ghaznavids were Persians because they spoke Persian or Mozart was Italian because he composed operas in Italian!

You won't gain consensus by spouting opinion or making outlandish claims like, "Accepted view in the everywhere world is like this".

Sources stating Safavids were Kurdish:

• Richard Tapper, Frontier nomads of Iran: a political and social history of the Shahsevan, Cambridge University Press, 1997, p. 39;"The Safavid Shahs who ruled Iran between 1501 and 1722 descended from Sheikh Safi ad-Din of Ardabil (1252-1334). Sheikh Safi and his immediate successors were renowned as holy ascetics Sufis. Their own origins were obscure; probably of Kurdish or Iranian extraction"
• Muhammad Kamāl, Mulla Sadra's Transcendent Philosophy, Ashgate Publishing Inc, 2006, p. 24;"The Safawid was originally a Sufi order whose founder, Shaykh Safi al-Din, a Sunni Sufi master descended from a Kurdish family."
• Andrew J. Newman, Safavid Iran: Rebirth of a Persian Empire, p152;"Working independently, the Iranian historian A.Kasravi and Z.V. Togan concluded the Safavids were Kurdish in origin..
• John R. Perry, New Perspectives on Safavid Iran:Empire and Society, ed. Colin P. Mitchell, p86;"The Safavid dynasty, in all likelihood of Kurdish origin....
• Rudi Matthee, Persia in Crisis:Safavid Decline and the Fall of Isfahan, p5;"Of Kurdish origin, the Safavids hailed from the Turkish-speaking highlands of Anatolia...".
• Stuart Cary Welch, A King's Book of Kings: The Shah-nameh of Shah Tahmasp, p11;"Although the Safavids spoke Turkish, they were probably of Kurdish origin...".
• Rudi Matthee, The Encyclopaedia Iranica;"As Persians of Kurdish ancestry and of a non-tribal background, the Safavids did not fit this pattern, though the state they set up with the assistance of Turkmen tribal forces of eastern Anatolia closely resembled this division in its makeup."

Also to refute your nonsense, "Also Safavid State was famous for ruled with Turkish culture and used Turkish Language", Persian was the official language of the Safavid dynasty per this source;

• Roemer, H. R.,The Safavid Period, The Cambridge History of Iran, Vol. 6: The Timurid and Safavid Periods, p. 331: "Depressing though the condition in the country may have been at the time of the fall of Safavids, they cannot be allowed to overshadow the achievements of the dynasty, which was in many respects to prove essential factors in the development of Persia in modern times. These include the maintenance of Persian as the official language and of the present-day boundaries of the country.."
  

Again, you will have to gain consensus for any changes to referenced information. --Kansas Bear (talk) 16:24, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Seriously? Ghaznavids were not spoke Persian, were spoke Turkish. Persian was just official language of correspondence in Ghaznavid. Also I'm not saying do not have any source. Have sources but one or two in millions sources. Accepted view in the everywhere world is Safavid was Turk. Erim Turukku (talk) 22:03, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Seriously. Ghanavids spoke Persian. Your continued nonsense of, "Accepted view in the everywhere world is "Safavid was Turk"., is extremely poor English and means absolutely nothing.

• C.E. Bosworth, The Ghaznavids:994-1040, page 129;"Mahmud is said to have known Arabic well, although he disliked the language. His knowledge of Persian was clearly adequate for him to work with his Persian adviors...".
• The Ghaznavids:994-1040, page 130;"As Sultan, Mas'ud was a competent Persian stylist".
• Linda Komaroff, Islamic art in the Metropolitan Museum: The Historical Context, page 10;"Although ethnic Turks, the Ghaznavids spoke Persian and through their patronage they helped establish modern Persian as a cultural language."
• Kees Versteegh, C. H. M. Versteegh, The Arabic Language, page 236;"The Ghaznavids, whose centre was Ghazna in Afghanistan, spoke Persian..."

Yet again, your personal opinion has been proven wrong by reliable secondary sources. --Kansas Bear (talk) 23:02, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Ghaznavid Dynasty (Viz language of palace) and other aristocracy, and Ghaznavid army was Turkic speaker. Persian was just official language of correspondence in Ghaznavid. C.E. Bosworth, The Ghaznavids:994–1040, (Edinburgh University Press, 1963), 134. To suggest otherwise is not scientific. Also Shah İsmail was Turk because he was born in Turkish city Ardabil. Ardabil's the entire population is completely Turk. Also Shah İsmail was famous for commitment to Turkish culture and govern with Turkish culture. Shah İsmail prased The Turks in own poems and apothegm for example; Sen ey Türk-i peri peyker/Thou fairy-bodied, angel Shapely Turk! And The great ancestor Sheikh Shafi'i of Sah Hatayi his was called on "Piri Turk" / "Turkish Piri".

• Nihat Çetinkaya, Kızılbaş Türkler, p. 395.

Shah İsmail Khatai nibs, was underestimated and flouted the identity of the Arab, Kurd and Persian in the face of Turkish identity in own council for example; Yetdükçe tükenir Arab'un kuy u meskeni,/Bağdat içinde her nice TÜRKMAN kopar.//Şirvan halaiki kamu Tebriz'e daşına/Mülk-i Acem sorar ki, kıyamet kaçan kopar?'

• Şah Hatayi Külliyatı, Babek Cavanşir, Ekber N. Necef 2006.

Erim Turukku (talk) 13:45, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

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