Talk:War of the Pacific: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 10:08, 22 October 2013 editKeysanger (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Rollbackers10,876 edits →Discussion ← Previous edit		Revision as of 14:33, 22 October 2013 edit undoDarkness Shines (talk \| contribs)31,762 edits →Discussion: ReNext edit →
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	:::We have of this book only a title, an author and a webpage of google books (no text), and we know that it was written before 1908, that is a primary source.		:::We have of this book only a title, an author and a webpage of google books (no text), and we know that it was written before 1908, that is a primary source.
	:::If you want we can bring the case to the RSN. --Best regards, '''KS''' (]) 10:08, 22 October 2013 (UTC)		:::If you want we can bring the case to the RSN. --Best regards, '''KS''' (]) 10:08, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
			::::Something written before 1908 is not a primary source, you may want to read up on ]. I have asked an editor to send me the full quote. Who is the publisher for History of Patriotism? You did not respond to a single question put to you. ] (]) 14:33, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

	==Economic depression==		==Economic depression==

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Peruvian Repaso

As User IggyAU in already stated:

...regrettably all the references about the repaso are from peruvian sources...therefore its imperative to point this out in order to protect the integrity of this article....

I have nothing to add to IggysAU words. --Best regards, KS (wat?) 07:16, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Hi Cloudac,

do you agree to delete the biased theory of Repaso from the article ?. --Best regards, KS (wat?) 10:10, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

You do not remove content just because of the nationality of the authors, prove they are unreliable first. Darkness Shines (talk) 15:59, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

I am guessing you did not see me previous comment? Darkness Shines (talk) 11:06, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

And you have used article tags instead of section tags? Do you not know how to tag a section? Darkness Shines (talk) 11:43, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

OK, you are right. I deleted twice. If you think you can improve the tags, please, do it. --Best regards, KS (wat?) 12:12, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

The disputed text and its refs in plain text are:

After the Battle of Tacna, Chilean troops went as far as to enter field hospitals and execute all soldiers of the opposing Peruvian and Bolivian armies.

Reference="El expansionismo de Chile en el Cono Sur - Humberto Cayoja Riart - Google Boeken". Books.google.com. Retrieved 2012-11-02.
Reference="Narracion histórica de la guerra de Chile contra el Perú y Bolivia. Por ... - Mariano Felipe Paz Soldán - Google Books". Books.google.com. 2008-02-21. Retrieved 2012-11-02.

The repaso further incremented the number of Peruvian casualties in the battles of San Juan, Chorrillos, and Miraflores.

Reference="Historia del patriotismo, valor y heroнsmo de la Naciуn peruana en la guerra ... - Carlos Marнa Muсiz - Google Books". Books.google.com. 2007-01-01. Retrieved 2012-11-02.

In the aftermath of the Battle of Huamachuco, Chilean Colonel Alejandro Gorostiaga ordered a repase under the pretext that they formed part of an irregular army and could therefore not be considered prisoners of war.

Reference="Historia de la Repъblica del Perъ, 1822-1933 - Jorge Basadre - Google Books". Books.google.com. 2009-12-04. Retrieved 2012-11-02.</ref>

Peruvian Colonel Leoncio Prado was among the few soldiers who were not killed during the Huamachuco repase,

Reference="Revista de la Sociedad Fundadores de la Independencia, Vencedores el Dos de ... - Fundadores de la Independencia - Google Boeken". Books.google.com. Retrieved 2012-11-02.

but was executed shortly thereafter.

That is the sources are

Humberto Cayoja Riart El expansionismo de Chile en el Cono Sur
Carlos Marнa Muсiz Historia del patriotismo, valor y heroнsmo de la Naciуn peruana en la guerra
Jorge Basadre Historia de la Repъblica del Perъ, 1822-1933
? Sociedad Fundadores de la Independencia, Vencedores el Dos de Mayo de 1866 y Defensores Calificados de la Patria, 1943

The only acceptable source is Jorge Basadre Historia de la Repъblica del Perъ, 1822-1933 and must be cited correctly.

Mariano Felipe Paz Soldán, Narracion histórica de la guerra de Chile contra el Perú y Bolivia (a primary source), Humberto Cayoja Riart El expansionismo de Chile en el Cono Sur, Carlos Marнa Muсiz Historia del patriotismo..., ? Sociedad Fundadores de la Independencia, Vencedores el Dos de Mayo de 1866 y Defensores Calificados de la Patria, 1943 are Peruvian patriotic books edited to glamorize the country of Peru. As a historic source they are useless. If we acccept this kind of books, then we have to accept also such books from the other side. Then lost wikipedia any credibility. --Best regards, KS (wat?) 12:12, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Please provide evidence for your claims, otherwise your accusations have no foundation.--MarshalN20 | 12:32, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

MarshalN20 is banned indefinitely from all articles, discussions, and other content related to the history of Latin America, broadly construed across all namespaces. (Indefinite).. --Best regards, KS (wat?) 18:19, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

It's also worth pointing out that in this earlier edit (see ), you went as far as to even delete the Jorge Basadre source that you now claim to be "he only acceptable source". Please, Keysanger (or "KS"), you seem to have a major WP:COI (Conflict of Interest) in this topic. I recommend you avoid it.--MarshalN20 | 12:36, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I be confused, all those sources support the content, why is only one OK? Darkness Shines (talk) 14:04, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

In fact, this source Andean Tragedy: Fighting the War of the Pacific, 1879-1884 (used for how lovey dovey they all were in combat) has on the next page a passage on how brutal the Chilean troops actually were. An American observer said out of 600 dead in one battle the most had been killed after surrendering or while wounded. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:15, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Darkness Shines,do you consider "Historia del patriotismo, valor y heroísmo de la Nación peruana en la guerra con Chile" by Carlos Marнa Muсiz a neutral objective and reliable source?. It is written to glamourize the Peruvian Nation. If we want to use this source as reference, we can do it, but then we have to use in-text attribution to the source, as in "According to the opinion of..." . --Best regards, KS (wat?) 18:35, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Darkness Shines, I looked in http://gso.gbv.de/DB=2.1/SET=1/TTL=1/LNG=EN/NXT (37,1 Mio. Titles),but there isn't present any title of Carlos María Muñiz.

Can you transcript the parragraph of carlos maria Muñiz's text that support the sentence given in the article?.
What do we know about this author?
Can you cite any other reference to this unknown book?

We have of this book only a title, an author and a webpage of google books (no text), and we know that it was written before 1908, that is a primary source.

If you want we can bring the case to the RSN. --Best regards, KS (wat?) 10:08, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Something written before 1908 is not a primary source, you may want to read up on WP:PRIMARY. I have asked an editor to send me the full quote. Who is the publisher for History of Patriotism? You did not respond to a single question put to you. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:33, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Economic depression

This section of the article handles almost only about the economic ressesion in Chile, and doesn't mention with due weight the situation in Peru and Bolivia. In Bolivia for example, the ten cents tax was an economic measure. --Best regards, KS (wat?) 07:20, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Peruvian mediation

The whole section is a original research of the author, sentences like Under the impression that previous Peruvian demands had favored Bolivia, the Chilean government stalled. Chileans were further discomfited....

I cite WP:EDITORIALIZING: produce implications not supported by the sources. Words such as but, however, and although may imply a relationship between two statements where none exists, perhaps inappropriately undermining the first or giving undue precedence to the credibility of the second. --Best regards, KS (wat?) 07:52, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Naval Campaign

The section is confusing because it speaks of a tactical victory to Peru but Nevertheless, it was a Pyrrhic and later of the Peruvian navy still had some successful actions but but its remaining units were locked.

Moreover, the Captain Grau is named 12 times, more than all Chileans sailors in the whole article. It is very interesting that for the rescue of the Esmeralda sailors, held off the Chilean navy, held off the Chilean navy by Grau, the article uses more than the half of the section. For the desicive action, Angamos and Punta Gruesa, where the Peruvian Navy was destroyed, the article uses only two sentences. --Best regards, KS (wat?) 08:00, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Pilcomayo, Alay

The article lacks inforrmation about the capture of the Alay and Pilcomayo. --Best regards, KS (wat?) 10:05, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Mutual Defense Treaty of 1873

The whole paragraph presents the setcret treaty as a harmless alliance, but in reality the treaty was one of the causes of the war and during the Lackawamma conference Peru and Bolivia refused to deactivate the pact. It must be said that Chile saw pact as a aggressive one. --Best regards, KS (wat?) 08:03, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Boundary Treaty of 1866

The article says nothing about the Boundary Treaty of 1866.--Best regards, KS (wat?) 08:08, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Argentine and the Secret Treaty of 1873

The article says nothings about the Argentina and the secret offenssive pact

After the war

the article states:

The national treasury grew by 900% between 1879 and 1902 due to taxes coming from the newly acquired lands. British involvement and control of the nitrate industry rose significantly. High nitrate profits lasted for several decades, but fell sharply once synthetic nitrates were developed during World War I. This led to a massive economic breakdown (known as the Nitrate Crisis). Many industrial factories had closed in the early 1880s to provide labor for the extraction industry. Loss of industry dramatically slowed the country's industrial development. When the saltpeter mines closed or became unprofitable, the British companies left the country, destroying many jobs. The former Bolivian region remained the world's richest source of copper and its ports moved trade between nearby countries and the Pacific Ocean. The former Peruvian region suffered because no new sources of wealth appeared after the Nitrate Crisis.

That doesn't belong to the history of the war and it is mostly speculation of the authors. --Best regards, KS (wat?) 10:15, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Cáceres, Andrés. "Memorias de la guerra del 79" pág. 231

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