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Revision as of 05:25, 10 June 2006

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

• Talk:Martin Luther/Copyright of Luther's Works
• Talk:On the Jews and Their Lies/Archive1
• Talk:On the Jews and Their Lies/Archive2
• Talk:Martin Luther and the Jews
• Talk: Martin Luther

Archived talk page

I tried to add the archive navigation button to both archive pages, but it got screwed up because there is no space after the word Archive and the #1?? So I left as is. See WP:ARCHIVE on how this works. Also, I noticed a break in the talk page editing from 3/27/06 to 5/8/06?? Why was this?? Thanks --Tom 16:43, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

The response to my question above got inserted as I was archiving so it appears at the botton of archive2, it seems that it was just quiet in here. (I find that REALLY hard to believe :) j/k ). --Tom 16:46, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Doright, I am now reading how you aren't happy that some of the discussion is only a day old. It seems that will ALWAYS be the case the way you folks are, er, "working things out" in here :). Anyways, can't you just make mention of it in a new header or referrence the old header and folks can go back and take a peak?? Anyways, with of friend SV on the sidelines (it BETTER be temporary in case she is lurking) I thought I would try to help out. Again, no disrespect intended. Thanks! --Tom 16:53, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand what you wrote. Nor do I understand why you and CTSWyneken insist on blanking this talk page of 100% of its content, including current discussions. Please review . Doright 22:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Doright for not making sense. In the future, I will only archive part of the talk page, that does make sense and I didn't even think of it. If you like, just go above to where it says Archive2 and cut the part you want and paste it in here and then delete it from the archive. It may be a little messy, but no big deal. Is that OK? Or just continue the dilogue below. --Tom 00:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Direct Quotations from Martin Luther that Attacks Jews Specifically as a Race

In On The Jews and Their Lies,Martin Luther repeatedly attacks Jews as a race. Luther states:

"There, Jew, you have your boast, and we Gentiles have ours together with you, as well as you with us. Now go ahead and pray that God might respect your nobility, your race, your flesh and blood."

Doright 23:08, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

"Therefore it is not a clever and ingenious, but a clumsy, foolish, and stupid lie when the Jews boast of their circumcision before God, presuming that God should regard them graciously for that reason, though they should certainly know from Scripture that they are not the only race circumcised in compliance with God's decree, and that they cannot on that account be God's special people."

Doright 23:08, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

"There is one thing about which they boast and pride them selves beyond measure, and that is their descent from the foremost people on earth, from Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebekah, Jacob, and from the twelve patriarchs, and thus from the holy people of Israel. St. Paul himself admits this when he says in Romans 9:5 Quorum patres, that is, 'To them belong the patriarchs, and of their race is the Christ,' etc."

Doright 23:08, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

"Oh, that was too insulting for the noble blood and race of Israel, and they declared, 'He has a demon' (Matthew 11:18) Our Lord also calls them a 'brood of vipers'; furthermore, in John 3:39,44 he states: 'If you were Abraham's children would do what Abraham did.... You are of your father the devil.' It was intolerable to them to hear that they were not Abraham's but the devil's children, nor can they bear to hear this today."

Doright 23:08, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

"They are the boastful, arrogant rascals who to the present day can do no more than boast of their race and lineage, praise only themselves, and disdain and curse all the world in their synagogues, prayers, and doctrines. Despite this, they imagine that in God's eyes they rank as his dearest children."

Doright 23:08, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

"They boast of their race and of their descent from the fathers, but they neither see nor pay attention to the fact that he chose their race that they should keep his commandments."

Doright 23:08, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

"They turned a deaf ear to us in the past and still do so, although many fine scholarly people, including some from their own race, have refuted them so thoroughly that even stone and wood, if endowed with a particle of reason, would have to yield.

Doright 23:08, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

"Furthermore, as Gabriel says, he must have come from among their people, undoubtedly from the royal tribe of Judah. Now it is certain that since Herod's time they had had no king who was a member of their people or race."

Doright 23:08, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

"This was accomplished despite the fact that the other faction, the blind, impenitent Jews — the fathers of the present-day Jews — raved, raged, and ranted against it without letup and without ceasing, and shed much blood of members of their own race both within their own country and abroad among the Gentiles, as was related earlier also of Kokhba."

Doright 23:08, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Attempt to ban h-antisemitism from Misplaced Pages

Dear fellow editors: I've invited discussion of the reliability of h-antisemitism on the talk page of WP:RS. Please drop by and comment . Doright 23:13, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Doright's revision of improvements

For the record, user Doright added new quotations to the article whose citations were not correctly formatted, lacked pagination, and took a position in a debate between Luther scholars and Dr. Robert Michael (and possibly others). I corrected these as far as I was able at the moment, did some rearranging of the section. User Doright reverted the whole lot, characterizing it as a POV distortion. I have obtained a copy of the Lewis article and read enough to see the summary does not do it justice. I will report the results when time permits analysis and identification of the pagination of the selections in our current text. It would be nice if he would provide page numbers.

Since I will not engage him directly, I would appreciate someone else weigh in on the issues involved.

The diffs are:

his new contributions.

after my corrections, additions and rearrangements.

his revert -- notice characterization in edit summary.

My revert.--CTSWyneken 14:18, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Doright reverts again, deliberately removing added quotation, moving citation away from text it supports, undoing corrections in citation form, removing the context for a Michael quote, readding redundant heading and moving Lewis quote out of logical sequence. Anyone else want to comment? --CTSWyneken 20:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Well, your changes look good to me; I'd like to see some explanation of what Doright thinks is "POV distortion". Could be, given the nature of the fussiness about this article, it would make sense to first say "Hey, this section needs some reshaping, here's my thoughts"; "be bold" is useful as a first suggestion, but "be careful of hornets" also is good. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 20:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, JP. To avoid an edit war, I'll leave it alone for now. I have just put up the verify flag on the section. I'll await the comments of others, since I do not talk with Doright. In the mean time, I will read the Lewis article, summarize my thoughts on it and report back.

--CTSWyneken 20:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

In addition to the problems above, some of which render this article inaccurate, pagination is missing for the Luther quotes in the body of the text and in the footnotes. Persumably the user has a copy of the text at hand and can supply them. Without them, the quotes remain unverified. --CTSWyneken 21:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Jpgordon, you say, "Well, your changes look good to me." Here are two of those changes ( and ). Both claim WP:OR as the rationalization for removal. The 1st deletes the sentence,"See footnotes for additional race quotes." The 2nd deletes the phrase,"while invoking a concept of race" from the sentence, "In On The Jews and Their Lies, Martin Luther repeatedly attacks Jews while invoking a concept of race." Please identify the reasoning that leads to the conclusion that it is OR. Also, note that this "good looking" edit leaves the additional race quotes dangling in the footnotes without context or explanation. Doright 05:23, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Addition of the {Not verified} tag

CTSWyneken, Which citations are you claiming could not be verified? It may not be good practice to use this flag for material that you have not taken the time to read. It's probably better to reserve it for citations for which you have at least conducted some due dilligence. Doright 21:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Please note I do not reply to this user. --CTSWyneken 21:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry CTSWyneken, if you continue to refuse to identify exactly what it is you claim could not be verified, your tag will be removed. Please see WP:DISRUPT. It makes no sense to run up a red flag and then refuse to answer the simple question of "why?" Please review WP:Civil. Also, please do no use such tags as rhetorical devices or as a personal reminder that you have not yet had time to read the sources. Doright 01:04, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

CTSWyneken, I've just discovered that you responded to my request, not in this section, but in the preceeding section. Some might interpret the placement of the response in a section preceeding the one containing the question as swizzling. Please do not embed your replies in random sections of the talk page.Doright 06:03, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

CTSWyneken, your rationalization does not support the application of the tag to the entirety of section 3 and all its subsections.Doright 06:15, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Same old Martin Luther talk page

We had done good for a while, but I guess were back to the old ways of this talk page. Well, peace can't last forever. Good luck to all!!! Thetruthbelow 06:08, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Reasons for Verify Tag

For clarity's sake, the verify tag is up because I have identified and tried to correct the following inaccuracies, only to be reverted twice by the same user. In light of the way this user treats people who disagree with him (see Talk:On the Jews and Their Lies/Archive2#Discussion About context swizzeling by CTSWyneken and Ptmccainas a form of harrassment), I have good reason to believe making the changes myself will result in an edit war. Therefore the tag is there to request other editors to review, as JPGordon has done, comment and perhaps make the same changes. The problems are as follows:

1. Note 15 on June 7, 2006 claims an article by Uwe Siemon-Netto supports the Halsall article. It does not. It supports the Siemon-Netto quote.--CTSWyneken 11:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
2. Notes 16, 17, 18 claim to be quotes from the physical copy of On the Jews and Their Lies, but do not cite pagination. They are likely from a third party source, possibly from one of the copyright infringing sources (see User Cecropia's Opinion), in which case the citation should be to it, but cannot be (see WP:COPY#Linking to copyrighted works). Since this user has misquoted this very work before, (See "Luther's Antisemitic Race Quote, #4), the citations need to be paginated. --CTSWyneken 11:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
3. I have the Bernard Lewis article. The article cites the physical version of the article as its source, but does not paginate. Either the online version should be cited, or the page numbers included. In addition, the article states, among other things, "Racial antagoinsim represents a return to an earlier and more primative conception of identity... Modern ideological racism in the Wester world appears to derive from two historically recognizable sources. The first is the Christian reconquest and unification of the Iberian Peninsula, completed in 1492. First the Jews and then, a little later, the Muslims were given the choice of conversion, exile or death... forces conversion inevitably raises suspicion about its sincerity... So began the quest for what was called "purity of blood," by which alone, it was believed, the purity of the faith and Christian society could be safeguarded." (p. 21) At best, the summary of this article distorts Lewis' analysis.--CTSWyneken 11:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
4. The Michael quote which follows is from an email, which opens with the opinion of a scholar, with whom the balance of the message takes exception. Not summarizing that quote, which Michael felt necessary to include, removes the needed context. --CTSWyneken 11:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

There are other issues with this contribution, but they deal with WP:NOR and writing style problems. --CTSWyneken 11:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I looked at this and support your edits with one caveat. Instead of removing "while invoking a concept of race", I suggest replacing it with something like ", at times explicitly referring to them in racial terms", because it is very clear from the quotes that Martin Luther is bringing up the issue of their race, and that's what that particular paragraph is about. I support your removal of the Lewis article section since that article sees modern racism in the Christian world as being driven by events in the Iberian peninsula and new developments in the practice of slavery. The connection to Martin Luther is tenuous at best. - Merzbow 18:04, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Is it OR to say that these quotes show Luther as racially antisemitic?

(since this the following is on OR and NPOV in the latest posts, I've added a subheading to keep the subjects separate)

Thanks for the opinion. As to your caveat, the problem is that it is not clear to the Luther scholars in the paragraph above this section, nor the scholar whose quote I added and Doright reverted out, nor five others documented in the last talk archive of this page. So, by saying something like this, we are a best engaging in OR, taking it upon ourselves to interpret Luther's words in a way experts in his life and thought claim is inaccurate, or POV deciding whether these scholars or Dr. Michael are correct. But this issue is not a verify issue. --CTSWyneken 19:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Is it OR just to point out that Luther mentions race? He does so directly in the quotes. Is it really true that not a single one of the scholars referenced points out that he mentions race? - Merzbow 22:11, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

There are several issues here as I see it.

The first is whether or not these passages accurately reproduce the translation of On the Jews and Their Lies As I pointed out above(See "Luther's Antisemitic Race Quote, #4), user Doright has quoted an online version of this work before that substituted the word "race" for the translator's word, "people." To be sure that the translator's actual words are quoted, someone will have to go through several hundred pages of this work to look for the quotations, since Doright has not provided page numbers.

Now, assuming that the word is used by the translator, the question really is what does the original German of the passages say? If, as was the case in the above inaccurate quotation incident, the underlying word is "Volk," what meaning did Luther have in mind for it? The primary meaning is "people." Now, as an encyclopedia, we are not qualified to make a decision on this matter. To do so is either OR or POV.

Turning to those scholars, all of whom have studied Luther thoroughly, their opinions are quoted here. One of them, Mark Edwards, has his specialty in Luther's polemics. It is his quote that Doright deleted. Because they state their opinion so definitively and so far only Dr. Michael has been quoted making a counter argument, we should not characterize the content of these quotes. --CTSWyneken 23:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

OK you've convinced me. Doright, do you have a response? - Merzbow 00:10, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

You have also convinced me CTS. You had some very good points. Thetruthbelow 19:11, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Is it Original Research to dispute the quotations in the published "Luther's Works" without citing references that dispute the translation?

Page numbers have been provided. BTW, it's a bit shocking that a Luther scholar and librian at a Lutheran institution does not have access to and is not aware of these particular quotes. It is CTSWyneken that is engaged in Original Research. I am merely quoting "Luthers Works." Perhaps when CTSWyneken publishes his own translation of "On The Jews and Their Lies," we can cite him. Alternatively, it would be helpful, if he can provide citations from scholars that dispute the translations of the specific quotations.Doright 18:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Doright Once Again Reverts, Removes Dispute Flags

In light the above discussion, I restored the improvements. Doright once again reverted the changes, removing the verify tag and the NPOV tag. In addition, he has now resorted to a personal attack.

The only improvement he has made is finally to provide pagination, so that the quotations, contained in 169 page work can be checked. His summaries still ignore contexts and misrepresent the content, he still insists on making Siemon-Netto into a support for Halsall, deletes a quote from Mark Edwards and gives his opinion of Luther's words in the face of a number of scholars that insist Luther had racial motivation.

Since he does not want to listen to me, to now three other editors, the flags must remain up. Since he will undoubtedly continue to revert my changes, would someone else comment, and, if you agree, make the changes again? --CTSWyneken 19:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

In light of the fact that Doright is making absolutely no attempt to provide specific criticisms of CTSWyneken's changes, which have been agreed to by three editors now, I have restored his changes. I did, however, keep Doright's enhanced quotes and references. - Merzbow 21:37, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Make that 4 editors in total - CTSWyneken, Merzbow, jpgordon, and Thetruthbelow. You need to start engaging with us, Doright. - Merzbow 21:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Why are you deleting the section?

Why are you deleting the section, "Relationship between religious and racial anti-Semitism" that has been part of the article since April?Doright 05:25, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Analysis of Citations to On the Jews and Their Lies

Looking at the citations added to the quotes Doright restored:

1. In this version of the page, Notes 18-26 duplicate the quotes which follow in 27-35.
2. They are correctly transcribed, but only partially in context, as follows:
3. The quote from p. 141 reproduces a portion of the argument that the Jews were proud of their decent from Abraham and they did not like John the Baptist's criticism of that pride.
4. In the quote from page 149, Luther asserts that all people are born into sin, Jew and Gentile alike (p. 148) He then attacks them (p. 149) for what he believes to be their approach to God in pride. Gentiles should not be lured to convert to Judism, Luther warns, because this boast is futile.
5. Moving forward to 174, the next quote again attacks the supposed boast of Jews that they are descended from Abraham. Luther charges them with disobeying the very law they boast of. It misses a harsher charge from Luther in the next paragraph, where he expresses the opinion that the whole Jewish people is demon-possessed.
6. Moving back to page, Luther actually attacks the status of Jews as a unique people here.
7. Moving further back to page 140, here Luther is leveling the false charge that Jews think of themselves as the only noble people on earth and that the Gentiles are not human. He spends the next few pages attacking the uniqueness of the Jewish people with one slander after another.
8. Moving forward again, this time to page 156, Luther argues that Psalm 5 applies to all people, Jews and Gentiles, because, in his opinion they are... and issues this quote, plus similar ones.
9. Continuing to move forward, on 176, Luther complains that the Jews have not listen to him and other Christians, including converts, refusing to see what is, to him, conclusive evidence that the Messiah has come.
10. Further forward, on p. 250, Luther is arguing that the Angel Gabriel said that the Messian must come from the royal tribe of Judah, but that they have had no king of that tribe since the time of Herod.
11. Finally, on p. 298-299, Luther argues that many thousands of Jews became Christians, even though the leaders of the Jews shed the blood of many of their people.

Having reviewed these, I come to two conclusions:

1. We can consider the quotations verified.
2. Scholarly interpretation is needed, because the wider context is not quoted in these passages. Neither Doright's opinion that they amount to modern racism, nor the opinion I've now come to, that Luther was arguing against considering Jews as a people and that the arguments of this book are thoroughly religious, should be in the article. If the quotes remain, they should do so either with scholarly commentary or now commentary at all. --CTSWyneken 21:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Having read “CTSWyneken Analysis of Citations,” here’s my point by point response:

1. There is no duplication of text, merely that the same citations are identified. I have no objection to suggestions on how to improve the formatting so they retain their reference numbers.

2. Thank you for finally admitting that all citations are correctly transcribed. CTSWyneken, it must have come to you as a great shock that there are so many instances of the use of the work race in Luther’s Works. Try reading the rest of the book. It’s interesting.

3.-11. These are all entirely irrelevant. The quotes shows the use of the word "race" in On The Jews and Their Lies as published in Luther’s Works. You can try to divert attention from that simple fact by extending the quotes ad nauseum.

Response to CTSWyneken’s “Conclusions:” 1. Good. 2. Another rhetorical attempt to poison the well by falsely claiming knowledge of my opinion. Nowhere do I state my opinion in the article, nor have I ever stated that opinion in talk. CTSWyneken’s beliefs regarding Luther or me are not relevant. This has nothing to do with the article.

In conclusion, I find nothing helpful in CTSWyneken’s "analysis" or "conclusions."Doright 05:15, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

1. Martin Luther. On the Jews and Their Lies, Martin Bertram, trans., in Luther's Works Vol. 47, The Christian in Society, IV, ed. Franklin Sherman, Helmut T. Lehmann (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971)
2. Martin Luther. On the Jews and Their Lies, Martin Bertram, trans., in Luther's Works Vol. 47, The Christian in Society, IV, ed. Franklin Sherman, Helmut T. Lehmann (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971)
3. On the Jews and Their Lies, Martin Luther, Martin Bertram, trans., in Luther's Works Vol. 47, The Christian in Society, IV, ed. Franklin Sherman, Helmut T. Lehmann (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971)
4. Martin Luther. On the Jews and Their Lies, Martin Bertram, trans., in Luther's Works Vol. 47, The Christian in Society, IV, ed. Franklin Sherman, Helmut T. Lehmann (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971)
5. Martin Luther. On the Jews and Their Lies, Martin Bertram, trans., in Luther's Works Vol. 47, The Christian in Society, IV, ed. Franklin Sherman, Helmut T. Lehmann (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971)
6. Martin Luther. On the Jews and Their Lies, Martin Bertram, trans., in Luther's Works Vol. 47, The Christian in Society, IV, ed. Franklin Sherman, Helmut T. Lehmann (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971)
7. Martin Luther. On the Jews and Their Lies, Martin Bertram, trans., in Luther's Works Vol. 47, The Christian in Society, IV, ed. Franklin Sherman, Helmut T. Lehmann (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971)
8. Martin Luther. On the Jews and Their Lies, Martin Bertram, trans., in Luther's Works Vol. 47, The Christian in Society, IV, ed. Franklin Sherman, Helmut T. Lehmann (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971)
9. Martin Luther. On the Jews and Their Lies, Martin Bertram, trans., in Luther's Works Vol. 47, The Christian in Society, IV, ed. Franklin Sherman, Helmut T. Lehmann (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971)