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Revision as of 04:42, 2 November 2013 editSteeletrap (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users10,937 edits →Murphy: reply← Previous edit Revision as of 04:53, 2 November 2013 edit undoSPECIFICO (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users35,510 edits →MurphyNext edit →
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:::I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to accomplish here since I already agree with you. I suggest you back off a bit and be less confrontational. You are just going to provoke people into hardening their positions when you should be trying to find common ground. ] <small>(])</small> 04:24, 2 November 2013 (UTC) :::I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to accomplish here since I already agree with you. I suggest you back off a bit and be less confrontational. You are just going to provoke people into hardening their positions when you should be trying to find common ground. ] <small>(])</small> 04:24, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
:::: I think that's a fair suggestion. It can however be tough to do so on these libertarian/Austrian pages, for obvious reasons. ] (]) 04:42, 2 November 2013 (UTC) :::: I think that's a fair suggestion. It can however be tough to do so on these libertarian/Austrian pages, for obvious reasons. ] (]) 04:42, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
:::: Hello Gamaliel. Your efforts on Murphy were timely and helpful. I wonder whether I could ask you about a practical problem which recurs on some of these articles and which I am not experienced or knowledgeable enough to handle as well as I would like. If you look at the Murphy Article talk page -- the section about the former section title (before the inflation prediction bit was removed) and also of you read Srich's recent 3RR complaint, you can see an example of what I'm about to ask. User Srich often cites policy justifications for his views and is convinced that he understands the cited policy fully applied it correctly. He believes that he's right and everyone else is wrong. OK. Question: Do you have any guidance as to an effective way for other editors to handle things when it appears that another editor is simply mistaken about policy? I see that you and Steeletrap have just had a straightforward discussion and resolution of a policy interpretation. What do we do when an editor is obstinate and simply repeats a (likely mistaken) view? It seems to happen over and over. Frankly, I feel at times that User Srich will post links to unrelated policies simply in order to rationalize removal of this or that text from an article. Regardless, is there a good way to handle such situations? Any guidance would be appreciated. Thanks, and thanks again for stepping in to help with the Murphy article. ]] 04:53, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Revision as of 04:53, 2 November 2013

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24 December 2024

Hello, welcome to my talk page. To leave a new message, click here. Please try to keep it relatively organized by signing your posts, posting new topics on the bottom of the page, making relevant headings about your topic and using subheadings, not new headings, for replies. I will almost always reply on this page to messages. I reserve the right to make minor changes of formatting (headings, bolding, etc.) but not content in order to preserve the readablilty of this page. I will delete without comment rude and/or insulting comments, trolling, threats, comments from people with a history of insults and incivility, and comments posted to the top of this page. Also, I'm much more informal than this disclaimer implies. Thank you. Rock on.

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A barnstar for you!

The Admin's Barnstar
For your semi-protection of Eiffel Tower. Bearian (talk) 16:09, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Thank you. :) Gamaliel (talk) 16:13, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 12 June 2013

Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2013-06-10

Edit-a-thon Invitation

CHF small logo
 Please join the Chemical Heritage Foundation Edit-a-Thon, June 20, 2013.
Build content relating to women in science, chemistry and the history of science.
Use the hashtag #GlamCHF and write your favorite scientist or chemist into Wikipedian history!

Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 15:03, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Migdia Chinea

Thank you so much. Mig (talk) 16:00, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Glenn Greenwald

The articles cited show Glenn Greewald defending terrorism against Israel. Please restore.The Nbaka is a major lie (talk) 17:33, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Whatever the facts, they must be worded neutrally. "Defending terrorism" is not a neutral wording. Please see our policy Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view. Gamaliel (talk) 17:38, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Jeremy Spencer

Just a heads-up that the edit-warring IP is now unblocked and has reverted again, with a message on the talk page. I've responded, but I don't see any rational discussion happening any time soon. Bretonbanquet (talk) 08:11, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Gary Botting

The changes you proposed (using surname only) have now been made. Gerald Ryder (talk) 05:07, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

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A cup of tea for you!

Thanks for your eyes on the David Gorski article. Good edit to remove the vacation photo. Cheers! — Keithbob • Talk • 16:20, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

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Better source request for some of your uploads

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Talk pages

Please do not remove others' talk-page comments, as you did at the bulletin board on edit protection. Please review talk page policy.

If you have concerns, you are welcome to raise them civilly. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:21, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

That's not a talk page, and talk page policy does not apply. WP:CIVIL applies everywhere. Gamaliel (talk) 19:32, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Edwin Bryant (alcalde)

Updated DYK queryOn 4 July 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Edwin Bryant (alcalde), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that had the Donner Party received the warning from Edwin Bryant, they might have avoided being stranded in the mountains? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Edwin Bryant (alcalde). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Gatoclass (talk) 00:02, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 03 July 2013

Proposed deletion of Albums considered the greatest ever

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July 2013

Hello, I'm BracketBot. I have automatically detected that your edit to Lee Harvey Oswald may have broken the syntax by modifying 1 ""s. If you have, don't worry, just edit the page again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on my operator's talk page.

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  • backyard photo (CE 133-C) showing Oswald with newspapers held away from his body in his right hand).

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DYK nomination of John W. Dwinelle

Hello! Your submission of John W. Dwinelle at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! BlueMoonset (talk) 17:55, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Nico Pitney

Why are you adding authorlinks to Nico Pitney when no article exists? Wouldn't it be better to create the article first and then add author links? —Diiscool (talk) 19:18, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm writing the article now. When I write a new article, I look to see what's already in Misplaced Pages in case there is some connection I missed during my research. I usually add links while I'm doing that so I don't have to duplicate the effort later. Gamaliel (talk) 19:22, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for answering. I figured that was the case. I'll revert my reversion of your edit on Timeline of the presidency of Barack Obama (2009). —Diiscool (talk) 19:29, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
Thanks! Gamaliel (talk) 19:30, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Brandon TR

Got your message, Gamaliel, and I agree with the sentiments presented. But I think I can also be accused of throwing similar remarks back at him. Maybe not as frequently as he does, but still... For example, I`ve made pointed remarks that it is unfortunate for the pro-conspiracy side that he is largely in charge of presenting their case. I`ve even suggested the `conspirators` are posing as him to make the case seem silly and untenable... But, notwithstanding that, I will back you up on this. Canada Jack (talk) 20:17, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. Any comments you could make in that threat I would appreciate. It's already being sandbagged by User:The Devil's Advocate, who is making some vague but serious accusations against me. Gamaliel (talk) 20:42, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

DYK

I brought up some issues at Template:Did you know nominations/Nico Pitney. SL93 (talk) 01:04, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

DYK for John W. Dwinelle

Updated DYK queryOn 10 July 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article John W. Dwinelle, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that John W. Dwinelle (pictured) helped establish the University of California, the right of black children to attend public school, and San Francisco's claim to much of the land within its borders? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/John W. Dwinelle. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Orlady (talk) 08:02, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for adding a template on the talk page of a regular who should know better.

I will be removing that redlink the next time I see an edit to that article if it continues to be a redlink. I think you know why. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:34, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid I have no idea why you wish to remove it. Gamaliel (talk) 21:38, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
For erasing POV cruft. Bearian (talk) 22:21, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
Thank you. Gamaliel (talk) 22:23, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Temporary semi-protection for Akaike information criterion

Thank you for this!  TheSeven (talk) 10:03, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

JFK assassination conspiracy theory archives

Hi. I want to reference a talk page discussion that involved Brandon from the JFK conspiracies article. Unfortunately, all the old talk between late 2007 and early 2013 is missing from the archive link on the talk page. Is there an easy way to get those restored and linked? Thanks! Joegoodfriend (talk) 20:26, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Talk:John_F._Kennedy_assassination_conspiracy_theories? It looks like there are four archives linked to at the top of the page. Look here: Talk:John_F._Kennedy_assassination_conspiracy_theories/Archive_index and see if you find the conversation you are looking for. It looks like it goes back to October 2007. If there is earlier material missing, let me know and I will try to figure out where it went. Gamaliel (talk) 23:37, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
the most recent archive, #4, ends in September 2007. Everything between then and march of this year is unarchived or the archives are unlinked. I could probably construct the missing archives by going over the history of changes to the talk page, but I thought there might be an easier way. Thanks. Joegoodfriend (talk) 02:23, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
I saw messages later than that I thought. Perhaps they were saved out of order. Ill have a closer look. Gamaliel (talk) 03:25, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
Taking another look, it seems everything since 9/06 is there, but disorganized. Archive 1 has the threads from 10/07 to 3/10. Archive 2 has 4/10 to 5/12. Archive 3 has 10/2006 to 9/07 then jumps to 5/2012 and goes to 1/2013. Archive 4 has the oldest info, 9/06 to 9/07. Threads older than 9/2006 are not archived. I would be glad to try to restore the threads from 2006 and earlier as archive 1, and reorganize the newer threads in order as archives 2,3 and 4. Joegoodfriend (talk) 19:22, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
OK these are fixed. Archive 1 is now 11/04 to 9/06 (these were not previously archived), with newer material split between archives 2, 3 and 4. Joegoodfriend (talk) 01:35, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I have added my thoughts to the thread about Brandon. I never forget a slight. :) By the way, in case you were wondering, Joe Goodfriend is my real name. Take care and thanks. Joegoodfriend (talk) 02:29, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 10 July 2013

DYK for Nico Pitney

Updated DYK queryOn 15 July 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Nico Pitney, which you created or substantially expanded. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Nico Pitney. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Allen3  12:42, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

US government agency document

Thanks for your comment, I believe a copyright agreement is a legal document, the source is a log of that document having cross checked many other artists and writers year of birth with the copyright log they all come up correct with wiki articles accept the Lana Del Rey article it's the only one of many that I have cross checked that isn't correct. Apparently it is quite common for celebrities to change their birth year particularly to make them younger therefore this information would be put out across all their biographical information and published but it doesn't mean it is correct, I thought Wiki was about factual information not preferred information. Thanks Deneuve15 (talk) 17:24, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Even if everything you said is correct, you still don't have that "legal document", all you have is a web catalog entry which allegedly references some unnamed legal document. Misplaced Pages is about verifiable information from secondary sources. Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, not truth. If the secondary sources are incorrect, that is a matter for biographers or journalists to uncover, not Misplaced Pages. Gamaliel (talk) 17:39, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply; you stated "It's not a legal document, it's a web catalog" - it is an on line catalogue of a legal document; a copyright agreement and is the only way to cite that information in an on-line format. It is also not an unnamed document it clearly states who made the copyright claim, what the claim is for and when it was made.

You also stated "all sorts of issues involving personal interpretations, misreadings, and original research" would arise from using a primary source. What wiki says about primary sources;

Original research refers to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist.

The secondary source I added was a newspaper publication.

Primary sources are often difficult to use appropriately. While they can be both reliable and useful in certain situations, they must be used with caution in order to avoid original research. While specific facts may be taken from primary sources, secondary sources that present the same material are preferred.

Large blocks of material based purely on primary sources should be avoided. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Misplaced Pages editors.


I did reference 2 secondary sources that backed up the primary source.

The primary source did not effect large blocks of material.

I was taking a specific fact from the primary source.

The secondary sources that are currently being used in the article are not backing up the primary source.

The secondary sources I used that were reverted, did back up the primary source.

Did you or have you checked the sources before deciding to edit the article. It may not be a matter for wikipedia to uncover if a source is incorrect but wiki should have the facts correct if the sources are available that show the sources are correct. Deneuve15 (talk) 20:27, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by that last statement. Of course I looked at the sources I added, that is how I know what birthdate they listed for her. Gamaliel (talk) 20:33, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I meant the sources I added as I added secondary sources that back up the primary source. Given that the specific part of the article is about Elizabeth Woolridge Grant and not the persona Lana Del Rey shouldn't Elizabeth Woolridge Grant's real year of birth be used. As the sources you cite and the sources previously cited relate only to the persona Lana Del Rey which is not actually relevant in the context of that section of the article, hence why I edited using a 'relevant' source.Deneuve15 (talk) 21:03, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

If you have secondary sources of interest, you should mention them on Talk:Lana Del Rey. Gamaliel (talk) 21:21, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

You made this edit; You state to see the link, there is no link. You also cite "Lana Del Rey" but the persons year of birth in question is Elizabeth Woolridge Grant's. Gamaliel (talk) 23:40, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

  • What do you mean when you say "you state to see the link?
  • One is the stage name of the other. Please don't waste my time with this nonsense about personas.
  • You should have a look at Help:Diff to learn how to properly link to individual edits.

Gamaliel (talk) 23:40, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

John Gibson edit war

You posted: You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on John Gibson (political commentator). Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Please be particularly aware, Misplaced Pages's policy on edit warring states:

Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made; that is to say, editors are not automatically "entitled" to three reverts. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. Gamaliel (talk) 20:37, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I created a new section in the talk page for John Gibson so I am doing what I can to avoid an edit war. User Fat&Happy has done two reversions that are not justified as I explained on the talk page. So it is not me who is engaging in an edit war, it is the other user. The articles referenced are from verified, reliable sources and support Gibson's claim. The article is very one-sided, so what I added is not only accurate but help give the article a more neutral POV. Finally, I hope you pointed this out to user Fat&Happy. I have reached out.

I now see that you made a reversion. I'm done editing here and trying to support neutrality.RickW7x2 (talk) 22:27, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I explained my reasoning at Talk:John Gibson (political commentator). I hope you will respond to what I've said there. Gamaliel (talk) 22:31, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Category:Freedom Trail

Category:Freedom Trail, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Tim! (talk) 06:07, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for July 18

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Edwin Sabin

Hi-I noticed you reverted the edits I made in the Edwin Sabin article and changed them back. My apologies for any misunderstandings, faulty edits, etc., on my part. Many thanks-RFD (talk) 17:46, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

No, it was totally my fault! I was clumsy with the screen on my tablet and accidentally hit the rollback button. Gamaliel (talk) 17:50, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 17 July 2013

DYK for Edwin L. Sabin

Updated DYK queryOn 21 July 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Edwin L. Sabin, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Edwin L. Sabin wrote the first seriously researched biography of frontiersman Kit Carson? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Edwin L. Sabin. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:02, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (File:Oswaldneworleans.jpg)

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Roger Revelle

Roger Revelle (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Regarding Roger Revelle, you can have your own opinion but you cannot have your own facts. My minor corrections were to point out that Revelles own paper basically states that "global warming" was not proven and that further research was necessary, In other words he wrote it to get more funding. Before he died he even stated that his theory was wrong, but because Al Gore had so much invested in the Global Warming lie and was prepared to make $Billions, he tried to convince people Revelle was delusional. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Exton1 (talk • contribs) 16:08, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Racism WP:FORUM

Racism WP:FORUMI feel like an abuse of the talk page is going on and on. Can you please reflect on it as your closing the talk page has been reverted by two editors having a dialog that has nothing to do with improving the article. but a fringe debate about Affirmative action.--Inayity (talk) 15:53, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for letting me know. I've reverted the change and will keep an eye on things. Gamaliel (talk) 18:01, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
Please don't close legitimate discussions on article talk pages. It is disruptive to do so. Contrary to what Inayity said, the discussion on the talk page did contain content on the article. 71.251.46.119 (talk) 05:04, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
I think we can see for ourselves the nature of the discussion and its irrelevance to the topic of racism. At best it is a fringe discussion. And just by adding in some text about "We should do xyz" does not excuse the forum tag and POV pushing the Ip is engaging in. If your intention is developing then start a different thread to address that development.--Inayity (talk) 10:24, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Countries unprotection

Hi. Recently you unprotected multiples countries, but you removed the protection of them. Could you restore the indefinite move-protection (sysop) of: South Africa, Slovakia, Ukraine, Afghanistan, India and Vietnam? Some (if not all) are widely visible and have had page-move vandalism sometime in the past. Thank you. Tbhotch. Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions. 20:01, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Good idea. I've done it. Gamaliel (talk) 20:36, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

These articles have become frequently edited, and vandalism became persistent. Care to check them? --George Ho (talk) 05:30, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 24 July 2013

User:Ranleewright

Hi. You recently blocked this user after an ANI report. FYI, I have now opened an SPI on this user here. Regards -- Taroaldo ✉ 08:00, 29 July 2013 (UTC)


This user has created a sockpuppet to continue editing. See user:Jimbob Williams. Thank you. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 08:03, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I have no idea of what your posting about, I am a new user and have just registered. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimbob Williams (talk • contribs) 08:12, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

If this user is indeed Ranleewright, as long as he refrains from legal threats and offensive behavior, perhaps we should continue to allow him to edit. What do you think? Gamaliel (talk) 12:23, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
I can't believe you even suggested that. You seem to be saying, as an admistrator, that it is perfectly AOK to evade a block, and lie about it, in bad faith. No, it isn't. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 12:38, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
I see your point, and I am not unsympathetic. My suggestion was made in the spirit of Misplaced Pages:Standard offer. The point of a block is not punishment, but to prevent certain harmful behaviors, and if these behaviors do not reoccur, I see little harm in letting the new account edit unobstructed. But sockpuppeteering and block evasion is, as you said, evidence of bad faith, and should the SPI provide proof of this, I do not oppose blocking. Gamaliel (talk) 12:42, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Babette Rosmond

Sorry if I didn't post correctly. But as her son, I did want to correct a few mistakes and add a few details. — Preceding unsigned comment added by stonito (talk • contribs)

No problem. Let me know if there's any way I can help. Gamaliel (talk) 20:46, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Donald Arthur

Remember this one? I have a draft on my sandbox here if you want to look at it. If you think it's OK, please unblock it so I can paste it in. Thanks! §FreeRangeFrog 01:20, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I'd almost forgotten about it. It's good to have some progress on this issue, as I'd been uncomfortable with leaving an article more or less permanently blocked. It looks fine to me, but I trust your judgment regardless. I'll change the protection level to semi-protection for now, or do you think we should just unlock it all the way? Gamaliel (talk) 01:29, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
No protection is OK, I think, if there's an editing issue then we can just semi it like any other article. Thanks! §FreeRangeFrog 01:31, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
Sounds good. Gamaliel (talk) 01:32, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Huma Abedin

The edit war is not being moved forward by me but by NbySB. Please see here: Most recent comments on the BLP Noticeboard.--Bing Norton 22:10, 30 July 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by BingNorton (talk • contribs)

The Signpost: 31 July 2013

Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2013-07-29

DYK for Marion Talley

Updated DYK queryOn 2 August 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Marion Talley, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that at the time of her much-heralded 1926 debut, 19-year-old Marion Talley (pictured) was the youngest prima donna to perform at the Metropolitan Opera? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Marion Talley. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Orlady (talk) 08:02, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Clarification on Rothbard page

I am distressed that you appear (to me) to be taking on face value User:Carolmooredc's assertion that people are deleting reliable sources simply because (on her account) they don't like them or are seeking to be disruptive.

Carol added text to the Rothbard article cited by a reliable secondary source. As I argue on the Rothbard page, I consider the added text to be off-topic and synthesis. (I don't see how a discussion of which fringe groups Barnes inspired relates to Rothbard's praise of Barnes's work.) The only thing that Carol's reliable source was used to source was this (in my view) off-topic, SYN assertion, (the (in my view, redundant and OR) parts about Rothbard I deleted were not cited by the removed RS in question.) That's why I deleted the passage containing the source. (I also have no idea how to delete text without deleting the source, which is something I need to learn. Full disclosure: I am a noob, who appreciated and profited from your (and Carol's) discussion of synthesis regarding another user's edits on the ANI.) Steeletrap (talk) 06:50, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Are you using visual editor? It might be easier to navigate things like that if you edit the plain text where you can see all the markups. Click "edit source" instead of "edit".
I'm not endorsing one text over the other. And there are definitely plenty of times where you have to revert all of another editor's edit. But whenever possible you should attempt to preserve the parts of an edit which add value to the article. Adding a source that is of higher quality than any other source in a particular section is certainly that adds much value to the article and is something you should try to keep in the article. Perhaps you could see if the source supports any of your preferred text, or make additions to your preferred text based on new information you find in this source. If nothing else, you prevent yourself from being open to accusations that you are removing high quality sources for spurious reasons. Gamaliel (talk) 13:17, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Move Duckworth RfC to BLPN

Hello. You are one of 6 or 7 Admins who has supported including DOB info in the Duckworth article: Talk:Tammy Duckworth#RfC on providing full date of birth. Yesterday I proposed moving the discussion to the BLPN so that we could get a policy determination on this and thereby avoid such prolonged and repeated discussions on article talk pages. In the last few comments I haven't seen a positive to my proposal. Would you care to opine on moving the discussion? (I am posting this message to each of the admins.) Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 02:56, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

It looks like the discussion has moved to WP:AN. Gamaliel (talk) 15:58, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Walled garden/fringe concerns with Mises Institute BLPs

Hi Gamaliel. I want to share with you a general problem with the articles being discussed on User:carolmooredc's BLPN. As you may have noticed, all of the BLPs User:carolmooredc believes are being "trashed" by allegedly "biased editors" such as myself are scholars at the Ludwig von Mises Institute. An examination of their Misplaced Pages entries shows that most citations for the academic work of these scholars are either from themselves or other Mises Institute scholars/publications, such as LewRockwell.com. (for some of the more egregious examples of this, see: Ralph Raico, Joseph Salerno, and William L. Anderson.) They constitute in this regard a walled garden, in which most or all "RS" for each scholar are Mises fellows, who tend to be praiseful of their colleagues. This leads to non-neutral entries featuring inflated characterizations of the prominence and importance of the scholarly contributions of Misesians.

Another big problem with Mises-related citations having such prominence in BLPs, regarding a subject's contributions as an economist, is that the economic methodology promoted by Mises Institute scholars is literally unscientific. That is to say, they categorically reject the application of the scientific method to economics -- an application which characterizes all mainstream social science -- and instead apply preconceived generalizations to their analysis of the economy. Senior Mises Scholar Hans-Hermann Hoppe has summarized this distinction between the methodology the "Austrian economists" of the Mises Institute and mainstream economists in a clear and lucid manner:.

"It is this assessment of economics as an a priori science, a science whose propositions can be given a rigorous logical justification, which distinguishes Austrians, or more precisely Misesians, from all other current economic schools. All the others conceive of economics as an empirical science, as a science like physics, which develops hypotheses that require continual empirical testing. And they all regard as dogmatic and unscientific Mises's view." [http://mises.org/esandtam/pes1.asp (1), emphases mine -- steele)

Per the words of Professor Hoppe, the "Misesian" approach to economics represents a rejection of economics as an "empirical science", which makes the Mises view fall under the guidelines of WP:Fringe. Thus, putting so much weight on the Misesian view in judging the contributions of Mises scholars to economics is in my judgment at odds with WP:NPOV.

I know this is a lot to digest, but I thought it would be helpful for you to understand this context. I look forward to your feedback and counsel. Steeletrap (talk) 09:07, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Hey my notification told me I was mentioned here! WP:Walled garden is an essay about links. It is not a policy about WP:RS. Rothbard has more than 1200 links on wikipedia. Hoppe has more than 250. Huerta de Soto has over 100. David Gordon (philosopher) has over 50. In all cases 1/2 to 2/3 are article mentions. That is not a Walled Garden. If there were only six Misean economists and they all only linked to each other that would be a walled garden. If walled garden was about sources, Bryan Caplan would be the tightest little garden in the world because the only source for 36 refs is Bryan Caplan webpages or articles, some of which make wondrous claims about Bryan Caplan. So enough already. User:Carolmooredc 11:08, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
I'm certainly no expert on economics, but I wonder if the Misean view is too prominent to qualify as WP:FRINGE. I'm sympathetic to your comments about the walled garden. I'm speaking conceptually and not in reference to Misplaced Pages:Walled_garden, an essay I'd never seen before today. Judging from Jesús Huerta de Soto, some non-Misean sources need to be brought to some of these articles. Gamaliel (talk) 16:06, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
Insert--> I think the Hoppe link speaks for itself. Mainstream economists and indeed all non-Misesians, in the word of this prominent Misesian, regard the Misesian approach to be "unscientific dogma." To illustrate the fringe point further, consider the following from prominent Misesian/Austrian Walter Block (2):"Mainstreamers never (to my knowledge) make such overtures in their journals, and when Austrians offer to publish in neoclassical journals, they are for the most part rebuffed." In the same piece, Block also notes that Gary Becker and James Buchanan, two of the most prominent economists in the world (Nobel Laureates) who like the Misesians are ideological libertarians, characterize the Misesian/Austrian approach to economics as a "cult."
Even if you're not sold on their being fringe, don't you think this deserves a hearing? If so, to what forum should I take these concerns and invite the community to opine. Steeletrap (talk) 17:58, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
I agree on bringing in outside sources. What you'll find, if you review talk page of Huerta de Soto (and several other BLPs of Austrians), is that such sources are challenged and deleted repeatedly by Specifico and Steeletrap and fought about on the talk page with me, Srich and other passerbys. This is the most disruptive editing I've had to deal with over so many articles since Israel-Palestine articles and at least they had an arbitration to keep them in line. Maybe what we need is a temporary 1RR on all these articles! What a concept. User:Carolmooredc 17:06, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
First, carolmooredc, you could state that concern without making any (disparaging, untrue) references to other editors. The issue can be described and discussed solely in terms of content and policy. Second, no resolution is possible if you do not state the diffs to which you refer. Please provide the diffs of non-Miesian sources which you state are "challenged and deleted repeatedly... and fought about" If you cannot or will not do so, I ask you to reconsider your post above. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 18:19, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Okay, please take this off my talk page. Take concerns about WP:FRINGE to the Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard. I request that further messages here be limited to two sentences each AND include either a link to a relevant article talk page discussion (where the matter can be discussed in depth) or a relevant diff that I can examine. Gamaliel (talk) 18:31, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

ANEW

Please read my comments at WP:ANEW regarding the report you filed against Niteshift. Thanks.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:43, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Lavabit

The Internet Barnstar
For your incredibly quick and high-quality work on Lavabit. I was planning on writing the article myself tonight, but it was already written by the time I got back from dinner. IronGargoyle (talk) 22:42, 8 August 2013 (UTC) IronGargoyle (talk) 22:42, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! The last day or so hasn't been particularly pleasant for me on Misplaced Pages, so this is really good to hear. Gamaliel (talk) 22:45, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Resource request

Thank you so much for the article Multiple Intelligences Go to School: Educational Implications of the Theory of Multiple Intelligences by Howard Gardner and Thomas from Educational Researcher, Vol. 18, No. 8 (Nov., 1989), pp. 4-10 . . . I will put it to good use . . . many smiles Stmullin (talk) 23:49, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. Glad I could help! Gamaliel (talk) 01:37, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 07 August 2013

3O Request

Responded to on Persecution of indigenous peoples in Bangladesh. Judicatus | Talk 21:27, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Jay Sadguru Swami

Hello,

I was following the Jay Sadguru Swami article and related disputes and I was wondering if I could get your input. There are two main sects of the Swaminarayan sect of Hinduism. The original Swaminarayan Sampraday and BAPS. The original sect has a version of the aarti that is posted and the current article is referring to from Professor Williams Introduction to Swaminarayan Hinduism. The Baps sect has slightly changed this and here is the dispute that Anastomoses and mainly Kapil.xerox keepstrying to cover up for whatever reasons: The arti sung in BAPS Swaminarayan mandirs is claimed to be an original manuscript of the composition by Muktanand Swami and is different from the aarti sung in mandirs of the Swaminarayan Sampraday.. This is a true and if you read the two aartis, you see there are subtle differences between the two. How are you suppose to note that they are simply different on Misplaced Pages without it being reverted by people who think they own this site. I appreciate you help in this matter.

Sageorsun (talk) 03:00, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Can you direct me to talk page discussion where you've tried to discuss this with the other editors? If not, you should start a talk page discussion and I will participate. Gamaliel (talk) 23:45, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
This was deleted for some reason? Can editors be vandals? Here is the discussion that I placed on the talk page:
long discussion of article content
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Here is the original version that the wiki article is referring to: (Bold words are what is in the original manuscript and BAPS for some reason changed them)

Charaña Saroja Tamārā, Vandu Kara Jodi; (2) Charañe Shisha Dharyāthi (2) Duhkha Nākhyā Todi… Jaya Sadguru Swai -2

With folded hands I pay my obeisances to the Lotus Feet of Shree Shajanada Swami. One’s all miseries are gone by simply surrendering to His Lotus Feet.

Nārāyaña Narabhrātā Dvijakula Tanu Dhāri; (2) Pāmara Patita Uddhāryā (2) Agañita Naranāri... Jaya Sadguru Swami -3

The Divine brothers Nara-Narayan Dev has taken birth in the brahmin family as human beings. He is the liberator of helpless and fallen souls, uncountable men and women.

This is should be noted in the article. There are two main sects of the Swaminarayan sect of Hinduism. The original Swaminarayan Sampraday and BAPS. This is an important item to be noted because the two sects have always been in bitter disputes so changing certain words helps BAPS to maybe differentiate them I don't know. The fact is that both are different and there has to be a reason why. BAPS does not have a reason but the differences are published therefore is not original research.

This is from http://londonmandir.baps.org/worship/swaminarayan-arti/ and it is the BAPS Version. The bolded text is what baps changed from the original sect.

Charana-saroj tamara vandu kar jodi, Prabhu vandu kar jodi; Charane chitta dharyathi (x2), dukh nakhya todi… Prabhu Jay Sadguru Swami.

I offer with folded hands my obeisance unto your lotus feet; And by offering my mind unto your lotus feet, you have torn asunder all my miseries

Narayan sukh-data dvija-kula tanu dhari, prabhu dvija-kula tanu dhari; Pamar patit udharya (x2), aganit nar-nari… Prabhu Jay Sadguru Swami

O Narayan, the bestower of bliss! You took birth in a brahmin family as a human being, And elevated innumerable abject and fallen men and women

So can we add this information to the article?

Sageorsun (talk) 04:29, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Some editor is abusing their power and deleting all my work. Please help me to understand why this is happening my account. I cannot even post this comment through my own acccount because it has been blocked. I have requested an appeal. I am at a large university with many adherents of the swaminarayan faith here. I have not edit-warred, created multiple accounts or made any disruptive edits. Check my history, I engaged on the talk pages and those were reversed as well. What is wrong? I do not understand why Bbb23 blocked this account. Please Help. My account is Sageorsun. 141.217.174.126 (talk) 01:48, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

I bet by tomorrow this IP wil be blocked. Not only did I not do anything wrong here, users at this institution are being blocked. Your help is greatly appreaciated.

141.217.174.126 (talk) 01:48, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

It appears that you have broken Misplaced Pages rules regarding the inappropriate use of more than one account. Please see Misplaced Pages:ILLEGIT. If you wish to contest that block, log into your account and place Template:Unblock on your user page. Gamaliel (talk) 03:54, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Would you mind taking a look at the article and seeing if the information that was removed should be there. I do not want to cause trouble. 141.217.173.211 (talk) 17:03, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
The problem you are having is your use of multiple accounts. I suggest you log into one of your accounts and contest your block as I described above by pledging to use only a single account from now on. Gamaliel (talk) 17:30, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 14 August 2013

DYK for Lavabit

Updated DYK queryOn 17 August 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Lavabit, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the owner of the Lavabit e-mail service said he can't legally disclose the reasons for its mysterious closure, which occurred soon after Edward Snowden's use of the service was disclosed? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Lavabit. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Alex Shih 12:02, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Lavabit

Updated DYK queryOn 17 August 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Lavabit, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the owner of the Lavabit e-mail service said he can't legally disclose the reasons for its mysterious closure, which occurred soon after Edward Snowden's use of the service was disclosed? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Lavabit. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Alex Shih 12:03, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 21 August 2013

My recent RfA

I should have said thanks for your support sooner. ```Buster Seven Talk 04:08, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Economics of climate change

Thanks so much for the paper 'Integrating tipping points into climate impact assessments'. PhilMacD (talk) 11:05, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

RCP

Not that I really care whether the quote is real or not, can you offer a link so my internets can see what has been verified by your internets? †TE†Talk 17:47, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Check your email. I sent you the article about a half hour ago. Gamaliel (talk) 17:57, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for that. Isn't it a bit SYNish to use the statement "we have a frustration that all conservatives have," to label these people as conservatives and place it in the lede? I mean, I have the same frustration that all black people have with stop and frisk. Are you going to tell me I'm black, now? †TE†Talk 18:11, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
I'll read it again, but it seemed pretty clear to me that a conservative publication featuring a conservative "spotlight" on a person complaining about alleged anti-conservative bias is talking about a conservative individual. But the article talk page is the best place for this discussion, so all editors can participate. Gamaliel (talk) 18:22, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Alrighty, then. †TE†Talk 18:24, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

The comments on the article talk page are regularly deleted. So, any "collaboration" isn't possible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.240.247 (talk) 04:48, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

I have only removed comments of a personal nature. If you comment on article content and not about other editors, your comments will not be removed. Gamaliel (talk) 17:17, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Amy Salerno

Updated DYK queryOn 30 August 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Amy Salerno, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Judge Amy Salerno scolded jurors in her courtroom this month for what she considered to be an incorrect not guilty verdict? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Amy Salerno. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:05, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

I hate to break this, but someone removed the hook from the main page. I reverted the closure and put a "slash" (/) on the nomination. --George Ho (talk) 22:56, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
Wow, this whole situation appears to have been handled very poorly, not the least of which was the lack of anyone involved in the discussion letting me know. Thank you for being the one to do so. Gamaliel (talk) 03:19, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

LHO edit war

You and Brandon seem to be having a fun time. Are you going to start a TALK subject? Would it helped if I started one as a 3rd party? Joegoodfriend (talk) 23:37, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Why should I? That question should be directed towards BrandonTR. I'm not the one trying to force through a major change without consensus. I am always willing to engage in civil discussion, of course. Gamaliel (talk) 03:17, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 28 August 2013

Bacon thanks

Thanks for your kind words about my recent successful GA, FA, TFA contributions to Everything Tastes Better with Bacon.

I really appreciate it.

It's nice to know that my quality improvement projects on this website are appreciated and acknowledged.

Thanks again,

— Cirt (talk) 00:57, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for September 2

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Involved protection

Per this history, you could be seen as your involved protection of the pages related to this issue. I ask you to unprotect, as it is clear that this is not unambiguously correct as required for you to perform the protection per WP:INVOLVED. Participate in the discussion, fine. Don't save it as your preferred version while it's ongoing and not very clear what the outcome will be. ~Charmlet 22:44, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Involved? Ludicrous. I have no preferred version, I took what I considered to be an administrative action to remove the material. When it was reverted, I took an additional administrative action to insure that the material would remain out of the article while discussion is ongoing. The material can always be added back later if it is somehow determined to be BLP-compliant. These actions are well within the scope of BLP and my administrative purview. Gamaliel (talk) 22:50, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
A revert of content is not an administrative action. It is a content action. Thus, you are involved. Your protection of your preferred (non-inclusive) version is a violation of administrative policy, as well as WP:INVOLVED. INVOLVED says that the actions must be such that any sane administrator would've done them, and in this case clearly no other admins thought (yet at least) of protecting the page. It is not unanimous, and it is most certainly not controversial. Please revert. If you are unwilling to remove the protection, I will bring this up at WP:AN for the reviewal of other community members. ~Charmlet 22:56, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
Removal of content to insure BLP compliance is indeed an administrative responsibility. Gamaliel (talk) 23:00, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
BLP does not apply here to the sourced birthdates. Any further discussion is completely about editorial discretion, which an administrator has no part in (as an admin, as a contributor they do). Since BLP cannot be something that would be obviously acted upon by any uninvolved administrator, you violated WP:INVOLVED. Especially since the parents and the children published the dates multiple other places beforehand. Thus, revert yourself. ~Charmlet 23:02, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
BLP involves all content, sourced or unsourced, involving living individuals. Gamaliel (talk) 23:04, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
This was not an unambiguous case of a BLP violation, thus your protection violates WP:INVOLVED. Please remove it. ~Charmlet 03:24, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
I disagree, it was clearly, completely, and unambiguously a BLP matter and I will not remove the protection until this matter is settled in the appropriate venue, or if the relevant parties pledge to refrain from edit warring over this contentious material. Gamaliel (talk) 03:39, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
WP:DOB does not apply when it can be reasonably asserted that the subject does not object. This is not a case where it is unambiguously objected by the subject, and it is not a case of unambiguous borderline notability (the definition of borderline), thus you, having expressed your opinions on the matter should not perform administrative actions on the page. ~Charmlet 03:48, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

New proposal regarding Wer900 at AN/I

In an effort to resolve the discussion at AN/I regarding Wer900, I have offered a new proposal at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Alternative proposal: Restriction on venues for complaints. Since you have weighed in on previous proposals regarding this user, I am notifying you of the new one in case you wish to opine. Regards, alanyst 19:01, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 04 September 2013

A cup of (Cuban) coffee for you!

Thanks, Gamaliel, for your work on the Ana Rosa Núñez page! I'm very eager to read more of her work. Timathom (talk) 19:05, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
The perfect gift for the occasion. Thank you. I have read relatively little of her work, unfortunately, but she was quite prolific. I do have a copy of Escamas del Caribe around my house somewhere somewhere. Gamaliel (talk) 21:47, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for September 11

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Gamaliel: edit to person's bio

Gamaliel - many thanks for your wonderfully courteous request concerning an edit. Perhaps my memory has slipped, but I don't recall ever having even looked at this site until right no, let alone edited it. On the other hand, it'd sure be odd if my handle appeared and I wasn't there; what might be happening? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Certayne (talk • contribs) 01:14, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Olbermann edit

Your reasons for reversing my edit are almost certainly disingenuous, and I suspect you're hiding behind a bogus claim of improper citation as cover for an agenda, not an honest assessment of my edit. However, it's easier to just play along. I will put in some citations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.19.43.251 (talk) 03:58, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

"I'm going to correct the mistake I made, but somehow it's the fault of your devious agenda I made it in the first place!" Gamaliel (talk) 04:07, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
I'm not suggesting I made a mistake, just that it was easier to humor you than you argue with you. You clearly are adept at the cheap tactic, I'll give you that. Enjoy lording over your little domain here in Wikiland... Birge (talk) 18:48, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
Wow, they let someone with your level of maturity in a PhD program? I hope they never let you near students. Gamaliel (talk) 19:17, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Hello! There is a DR/N request you may have interest in.

This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding a content dispute discussion you may have participated in. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help find a resolution. The discussion is about the topic Talk:RealClearPolitics. Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you! — v/r - TP 20:50, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the notification. Gamaliel (talk) 21:12, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Trent Lott

I could say a lot more, but I'm going to bury the hatchet for the moment. Explain, objectively, why you think Trent Lott's lobbying activity merits no mention in the lead, when Jim Talent, Denny Rehberg, Howard Dean, Paul G. Kirk, Don Nickles, Connie Mack IV, and John Breaux - to name a few edits among all the recent ones - do have that mention, and when Lott has been a registered lobbyist for longer than almost all of them and has been a more prominent lobbyist than almost all of them. 68.180.101.240 (talk) 02:22, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Honestly, a case could be made either way, so I'm willing to concede this one in the interests of burying the hatchet if you also bury the immaturity you've previously displayed along with it. You've shown a willingness to improve your edits and it appears from the content of your edits that you are responding to criticism, despite the overt hostility you display when confronted with that criticism, so if you temper that hostility I think you could make a positive and substantial contribution to Misplaced Pages. Gamaliel (talk) 02:32, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
Agreed. I will drop any name-calling and unwarranted hostility moving forward. Please revert Trent Lott back to my version so that a consensus on the page can be established. Trayvon1 (talk) 03:06, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
I've edited the article in a way that I think everyone can be happy with, or at least live with. Gamaliel (talk) 15:57, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 11 September 2013

The Signpost: 18 September 2013

Just wonderin

Hi Gamaliel, Just wondering what you are thinking regarding the IP that is vandalizing the Coates BLP. He has obviously read all our warnings on his user talk page because he/she posted a confrontational response on my user talk page. But then a few minutes later he/she reinserted the same content. You have protected the page, which gives some protection to the subject but I'm wondering what your strategy is with the IP. So far, in communications with both you and I they have been argumentative and shown no indication that they are willing to stop the disruptive behavior or adapt to WP's guidelines and cultural norms. I think you are a good editor and Admins have to make difficult judgement calls in situations like this and you are demonstrating a lot of patience with this IP. I already gave him a final warning, so if I had tools I would have already issued a brief block, which might have been the wrong thing. So kudos to you for your patience (which is in short supply on WP) , but just for myself as a learning opportunity could you explain to me what your approach is here? Thanks so much, -- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:48, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm trying to nudge him into collaborative discussions with other editors. Since he can't edit due to protection, that's the only option he has now. If he doesn't engage in discussion and simply returns to edit warring after protection expires, then I will escalate. Right now, as long as he isn't attacking the subject of the article or other editors, I see no harm in letting things play out. Gamaliel (talk) 15:57, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
He/she hasn't responded to any of my nudges and he/she was aggressive on my talk page without provocation, so I'm skeptical. However, you have more experience with this, so I'll watch and learn. thanks, -- — Keithbob • Talk • 01:06, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

DYK for The Librarian (painting)

Updated DYK queryOn 24 September 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article The Librarian (painting), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Giuseppe Arcimboldo's painting The Librarian (pictured) is thought to be a portrait of historian Wolfgang Lazius? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/The Librarian (painting). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 12:32, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Wow that was fast.

You obviously watch the MAIG page like a hawk and remove any information that paints them in a poor light. Talk about biased attitudes. I'm not going to debate pro or con with you since you obviously hold all the cards here Mr. Editor; so enjoy being in control. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sobriant74 (talk • contribs) 18:39, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Tip of the day...
If you have privileged access to web pages...

The "perfect" Misplaced Pages article is built on solid research (remember to cite your sources). Contrary to popular belief, not all information is available for free on the Internet. Some research is only published in scientific journals and books (ask your library for remote lending services); some material is available only in commercial, password-protected electronic databases. If you have access to useful research material, please add the relevant information to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Resource Exchange, a central portal to find Wikipedians with access to such resources. Remember we can only use facts from sources such as these, not a particular copyrighted expression thereof.

If you are a qualified user you can request access to the databases of paywalled resources proctored by The Misplaced Pages Library. Qualification usually involves having 500–1000 main namespace edits and 6–12 months tenure editing on Misplaced Pages.

Prior tip – Tips library – Next tip Read more:Misplaced Pages:List of free online resources  Misplaced Pages:The Misplaced Pages Library   Become a Misplaced Pages tipster To add this auto-updating template to your user page, use {{totd}}

Gamaliel (talk) 18:43, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Heres a tip for you, enjoy! http://www.wikihow.com/Be-a-Nice-Person — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sobriant74 (talk • contribs) 18:57, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Randolph Greenfield Adams

Updated DYK queryOn 26 September 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Randolph Greenfield Adams, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that librarian Randolph Greenfield Adams wrote a notorious 1937 essay called "Librarians as Enemies of Books"? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Randolph Greenfield Adams. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:03, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Systematic Vandalism on BLP Scott Buck

Greetings, Gamaliel. I write you because you're an admin who cares about preventing vandalism. After a highly disappointing finale episode to the once critically acclaimed Showtime TV series Dexter, there has been considerable vandalism of the Misplaced Pages entry of showrunner (i.e. the main writer and director) Scott Buck, who took over the show in Seasons 6-8. For instance, see this edit (1), which changes Buck's title to "showruiner" and falsely claims that the Seasons for which he was in charge were negatively received. In fact, the cited metacritic source indicates that Seasons 6-8 received mostly positive reviews, even if much less positive than earlier, universally acclaimed seasons. (2)

This is all part of a systematic effort to vandalize Buck's page launched by disappointed Dexter fans on reddit. (3) (4) Thus we have every reason to fear the vandalism will be ongoing.

I hope all that makes sense. In light of all of it, could you protect this BLP page for a few weeks until the fans cool down? I think the series finale sucked too so I have no bias towards buck; but these edits are just egregious. Steeletrap (talk) 16:28, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

I protected it for a week. Let me know if the vandalism returns. I'd rather not put the page on my watchlist, though, because I want to avoid spoilers. I haven't seen the final season yet. Gamaliel (talk) 16:35, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
Got it. I must say I found the final season to be very disappointing, although I liked the first few episodes. I think they forgot which genre the show was. Hope you feel differently about it! Steeletrap (talk) 16:38, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Baartman print (French)

I looked closely at a copy of this elsewhere on the net and with my schoolgirl French gradually realised its target isn't Baartman, it's the British. Baartman engages the viewer with a long-suffering expression as her onlookers' comments display what, to the French, are typically British foibles - obsession with large cuts of meat, wearing ludicrous/indecent clothing, envy of superior sexuality etc. She was a gift to cartoonists. There's another (British) caricature where she's used to deride a politician of the day who also had a fairly ample behind.RLamb (talk) 09:29, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, I would never have guess that but it makes sense. Have you seen the ones on the British Museum website? They have a couple dozen caricatures. I wouldn't be surprised if there was one making fun of the French in turn. Gamaliel (talk) 16:49, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
I think both countries persuaded themselves the other was more at fault in their actions toward Baartman - more uncaring, less humane, less refined - and they were both wrong. When 'The Times' announced her recent death in Paris it was sniffy about her French doctors and left the strong impression she'd have been better to stay in England, where decent medical treatment was to be had. But the French representations of her seem generally more accurate, less cartoonish. RLamb (talk) 20:52, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 25 September 2013

Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2013-09-23

Bias

I think you may be violating Misplaced Pages's most important rule by repeatedly reverting to a text that omits the insertion of "allegedly" to qualify the statement (in the Ruth Paine entry) that Lee Harvey Oswald fired the rifle that was found in the Texas School Book Depository after the President was assassinated. The citations for this allegation are many, but they are also biased inasmuch as they all derive from argumentative texts that deny that the assassination was the result of a conspiracy. Since no one was ever tried for the President's murder and since the evidence has been contested for decades in books written by lawyers, academics, scientists, doctors and others, your refusal to permit any acknowledgement of the fact that the evidence is in dispute violates the principle of objectivity. Crypto23 (talk) 12:32, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Created page with wrong title

Greeting, Gamaliel. I just created my first Misplaced Pages entry, for the Property and Freedom Society. Unfortunately, I screwed up and created as the "Property and freedom society" (with improper lower-case). Can you fix this? Many thanks. Steeletrap (talk) 16:06, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Sure, no problem, it was an easy fix. You can usually do most page moves yourself if you want: Misplaced Pages:Moving_a_page. Gamaliel (talk) 16:13, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
Thanks; will read the wikilink. I appreciate you, Gamaliel. Steeletrap (talk) 16:17, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Sudden doubt

Hi there. Hate to be a bother like that, but after reading through the chapter that you were gracious enough to provide the missing pages for, I'm realizing I am not sure that page 336 was only bibliography or if it actually had text. Would you be so kind as to check and upload it if does include text and not just the start of the bibliography? Circéus (talk) 03:50, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Oh, no problem. The bibliography doesn't start until the end of page 338. Here is the missing text: 336 337 338. Gamaliel (talk) 17:13, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
... Okay, I'm not proud of that one, but I mistyped the page number, that was meant to be page 236. Circéus (talk) 17:21, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Your timing is excellent, I was online filling requests anyway: . And everybody derps sometimes. :) Gamaliel (talk) 17:40, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

IP adress blocked.

Hi,

I am writing because my IP adress 69.165.128.0/19 was blocked. The reason given is vandalism. I didn't do any vandalism, actually I am quite new to editing and have edited only a few articles so far. Please could you clarify and unblock? Thanks, Arpabogar (talk) 20:17, 30 September 2013 (UTC) Arpad

I'm unable to unblock because IP addresses in that range are being used by a long-term, persistent vandal. However, you will be able to edit Misplaced Pages while you are logged in and the block will not interfere with this. Gamaliel (talk) 21:08, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Hatting off-topic sub-threads on my ANI

Greetings, Gamaliel. On the ANI thread I wrote about User:Binksternet (1), Can you, in your capacities as disinterested admin, "hat" the "proposal" sub-thread regarding whether to do a topic ban on Binksternet? (2) Whatever its merits, this position is a far cry from my original complaint, and serves to distract from and obscure it. Ditto for the thread regarding the alleged "belitting" of Srich and Binkster by Miles (3). Steeletrap (talk) 01:58, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Looks like somebody beat me to it. Gamaliel (talk) 17:00, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Not very happy

Hi Gamaliel. With all due respect, this DYK which appeared on September 28

Did you know that Time journalist Michael Grunwald said, "I can't wait to write a defense of the drone strike that takes out Julian Assange"?

was pretty terrible. And it's your baby.

It's terrible because Mr Grunwald is (as far as I can tell from his article) is a senior national correspondent at Time magazine and has written two books, and on this rests such notability (as opposed to notoriety) as he has. In presenting him to the world at one of the most-viewed web pages in the universe, we (you) chose to ignore that and instead focus on a stupid tweet he made. Of which he's ashamed, since Grunwald later tweeted his regrets: "It was a dumb tweet. I'm sorry. I deserve the backlash." Emphasis added. The spirit of WP:BLP weeps.

It's your baby because of this edit at Template:Did you know nominations/Michael Grunwald.

User:Miyagawa, who actually promoted the hook, is not responsible because (if I understand DYK procedure correctly, which I've taken a fair amount of trouble to do) promoting an article is a purely mechanical step; like an XfD closer, User:Miyagawa isn't allowed to intrude his own judgement into the process but rather simply assesses the judgement of others.

As to those others, there were eight besides you, seven of whom didn't approve the proposal. No one rejected it either, but a couple at least made vague noises in the direction of BLP considerations. The one other editor who approved it did so pretty much in passing, and this was followed by further objections (although not in the BLP vein).

Your edit, coming at the end, summing up and indicating that all previous objections had been addressed, is certainly the key event in causing this dreadful entry to appear on our main page. You could have said "Hold it. This is wrong. This person isn't our enemy and there's no reason to do a driveby character assassination here. Let's restart the process with something that doesn't violate WP:BLP, such as Did you know that Time magazine senior national correspondent Michael Grunwald has written two books? or something. Rejected."

But you didn't. You're an admin for chrissakes. WP:BLP is one of our core policies, and the very first sentence is "Editors must take particular care when adding information about living persons to any Misplaced Pages page." (Note "any" -- there's no exclusion for the main page.) Admins need to be familiar with our core policies. It's important!

I know you're only human and we all make mistakes, but DYK is dynamite. Unlike normal article edits, edits to the main page can't be undone -- once a DYK's appeared, it's out there. And there's no time or allowance for a lengthy or well-attended review of the matter. That's why you need to be really really careful. I hope you will be in future, and that this doesn't indicate a "Meh, whatever" attitude toward WP:BLP, because that would be a problem. Herostratus (talk) 18:55, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

In the DYK discussion the objections centered around the notability of Grunwald himself, and the AFD discussion put an definitive end to those objections, so I saw no reason not to pass the DYK at that point. The DYK hook isn't intended to be a summary of the entire article, it's an interesting fact about someone's life. "X wrote two books" is not a particularly interesting fact. A controversial, widely-discussed tweet is an interesting fact. I don't know how mentioning that interesting fact is "a driveby character assassination". I'm not "meh, whatever"ing this issue, it's vitally important that we don't violate BLP on the front page. I fail to see how this does so. Gamaliel (talk) 19:05, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Yes if he's notable of course we're going to have an article about him. Yes I'll grant that that the material belongs in the article (haven't considered this, but seems reasonable). However, consider the spirit of BLP, which is "The Misplaced Pages is not here to make people sad" to which I'd add "....without compelling cause". We can't redact the material about the tweet from the article because there'd be too much loss of encyclopedic information. A person going to the article Michael Grunwald wants the answer to the question "Who is this guy?" and knowing about the tweet is part of the answer to that question.
But DYK hooks have no encyclopedic value. They are not part of the process of creating, storing, and presenting information about Michael Grunwald for the purposes of research (or amusement or edification or whatever else people might read our articles for). DYK hooks exist for two reasons: primarily, as a "prize" to promote the creation of new articles, and secondarily to attract readers to the main page and perhaps deeper into the Misplaced Pages.
For an article, we say "Well, this might make the subject unhappy BUT we need to do it anyway BECAUSE it's necessary to fulfill our mission as an encyclopedia". For DYK hooks we say "Well, this might make the subject unhappy BUT we need to do it anyway BECAUSE..." Because what? Because nothing. There is no because. "...BECAUSE we need to fulfill our mission of rewarding new article creators"? You can do that with any material in the hook. "...BECAUSE we need to attract readers"? Pht -- that's entirely secondary (if DYK's main purpose was to attract readers we'd seek out the most interesting entries from our article database (which would make for far more interesting tidbits) rather than restricting it to new articles, besides which, when the day comes when "attracting readers" is more important than "not picking out people's worst moments to highlight" we can just turn the entire operation over to People magazine.
It's possible that Grunwald's expression of regret was pro forma and he's actually delighted with the notice it got him. But I much doubt that. He's a serious journalist, wrote two reasonably serious books, important position at a respectable middlebrow news magazine. He's probably sick to death of the whole thing. He apologized, already. Does he really have to have that fucking 10-second ill-considered tweet define him to the public for all time? Which featuring it as the one fact we chose to highlight about his life when we presented him on one of the most read pages on the web sure helps to do. So what if it's "interesting". Have a heart, man.
Am I getting through to you? Please tell me I'm getting through to you. Herostratus (talk) 00:38, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
You are. I'm not sure I agree completely, but I am giving this a great deal of thought. I've been quite busy today so I haven't had the time to give this the thoughtful response it deserves yet. Gamaliel (talk) 21:45, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
OK. No hurry. Herostratus (talk) 12:49, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 02 October 2013

The Signpost: 09 October 2013

ITNC post

I was wondering if you could give a reason for your support of posting the Doctor Who item to ITN; generally to be considered an opinion needs more than a simple "support" or "oppose" with it. Thanks 331dot (talk) 01:04, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Fletcher Prouty

Just to give you some background in the spirit of WP:BRD:

I had re-inserted the link you removed from the L. Fletcher Prouty page after I added the entry to the spam-whitelist so that the link could be used in article. My action on the spam-whitelist was after discussion on both the MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist and MediaWiki talk:Spam-whitelist pages. Those discussions, in turn, were initiated in response to communications from the website representative on OTRS.

The site is still blacklisted except for that one link, and those who participated in the admittedly brief discussions did not have a problem including it. I judged that to be a rough consensus, therefore I added it.

Please note this was a compromise determined after demands in OTRS to de-blacklist the entire site. The initial spam-blacklist proposal was to leave blacklisted only the attack page that caused the site to be blacklisted in the first place, but then changed to white-listing just the main index page of the site and leaving the rest of the site blacklisted. The prouty.org representative agreed to that (reluctantly) although no guarantees were made that the link would be retained in the article.

I do not believe the link's presence does any harm, and the site does have useful information about the subject. Please consider adding it back — this would also relieve overworked OTRS volunteers from from responding to further complaints. Thanks. ~Amatulić (talk) 01:19, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

I see you have initiated another OTRS ticket. I will refrain from answering it so that another volunteer may do so.
You and that other fellow with whom you have a dispute should really talk to each other, not get OTRS caught in the middle. I have suggested the same to him. OTRS does not resolve content disputes over email, and that is what this is. I explained the situation above.
Also, you need to disclose any COI you might have, particularly as an admin here. ~Amatulić (talk) 04:55, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
User:Amatulic, I initiated an OTRS ticket before your initial post here. I've been quite busy with work and school (most of my recent editing has been for a class) so I haven't responded to this matter yet. I understand that you wish to avoid further emails from the person who runs that website, but responding to these sorts of complaints is part of the territory, and my acquiescence on this matter will do very little to lessen the burden of OTRS volunteers overall. I also believe that I should not be asked to acquiescence on this matter simply due to the fact that I am a Misplaced Pages volunteer. I am entitled to the same BLP protection and consideration due to any other living individual.
These sorts of websites provide little value to Misplaced Pages articles. They are assembled by uncredentialed enthusiasts and are riddled with factual errors and libelous statements directed at both living and deceased individuals. These are the kind of low quality links that we've been moving away from since the early days of Misplaced Pages in favor of more high quality and scholarly resources. Would we really be considering including this fringe conspiracy website if it were not for the persistent complaints of its creator?
What conflict of interest do you imagine I have in this matter? Please specify or withdraw your remark? Thank you. Gamaliel (talk) 16:10, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
I quite understand time constraints - my job has kept me away from Misplaced Pages recently too.
The ticket in question is approaching 30 messages. It is long past the time for private OTRS communications and time for public talking, and OTRS should not serve as a middle man between disputing parties. I have told the prouty.org representative that further discussion must take place on talk pages.
I am not a party to your dispute. It makes no difference to me whether the link is kept or not, although I feel that the article is enhanced by linking to it, because the site does seem to be a good resource in spite of some objectionable pages. I answered an OTRS ticket that has blown up into a massive thread, went to all the proper noticeboards, and when a rough consensus was evident, I compromised, not by de-listing the site as requested, but by white-listing one page, not the entire site. This was all done with transparency. If you object to that, then propose your reasons for removing that white-list entry at MediaWiki talk:Spam-whitelist. The page white-listed, however, has nothing to do with you.
I intended the white-listing to encourage talk page discussion, which hasn't happened. Instead I see more attempts at back-room communications. From both sides. This must stop. That isn't how Misplaced Pages works. Transparency is necessary. We need to use public talk pages for disputes.
The site representative understands that white-listing is no guarantee that the link will be accepted. You claim it isn't official, it's a fringe site. He claims it is official, that it's Col. Prouty's own site. He also asserts that some of the content on that site, to which you object, was placed there in direct response to attacks by you and others. He needs to provide support for those assertions on the talk page, not to me. If he won't initiate discussion on the talk page, would you?
As to COI, I have no idea. I understood you as saying that you're personally affected by what goes into the Col Prouty article. That suggests a COI. If a COI exists, it should be disclosed. That's all I was saying. ~Amatulić (talk) 14:18, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
User:Amatulic, I just read through his newest messages to OTRS. I admire your persistence in dealing with him. (If you are wondering about the Nazi thing, some now-blocked editor vandalized my user page some years back with a Nazi flag, this guy saw it and has interpreted that as meaning I'm a big Hitler fan. I usually wouldn't mention the content of OTRS correspondence, but its the same nonsense that's posted on his public attack page.)
My message to OTRS was not an attempt at "back-room communications", I just registered a complaint with OTRS just as any individual is free to do, and I deserve the same protections as a non-Misplaced Pages editor does. In regards to the COI, I guess I'm looking at it from the perspective that if a shitty personal website hosts some attack pages, and a link to the main page of that website is posted here, I find that just as offensive in some respects as directly linking to the attack page itself. I'm otherwise unaffected personally by the Prouty article here. I understand that you are saying that the main page and the attack pages are separate pages and should be treated differently, and that posting the main page shouldn't affect me. I respect that assessment, I just disagree with it.
Otherwise, I'm willing to discuss the merits of inclusion or exclusion on the talk page in a public manner. I see two issues here: quality and this claim of being an "official" webpage, and to me this page fails on both counts. This is an opinion I've held about these kinds of webpages even before I learned of the attack page directed at me, and my opposition to these poor quality conspiracy links is why I was targeted by this individual for an attack in the first place. Gamaliel (talk) 19:34, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Opting in to VisualEditor

As you may know, VisualEditor ("Edit ") is currently available on the English Misplaced Pages only for registered editors who choose to enable it. Since you have made 100 or more edits with VisualEditor this year, I want to make sure that you know that you can enable VisualEditor (if you haven't already done so) by going to your preferences and choosing the item, "MediaWiki:Visualeditor-preference-enable". This will give you the option of using VisualEditor on articles and userpages when you want to, and give you the opportunity to spot changes in the interface and suggest improvements. We value your feedback, whether positive or negative, about using VisualEditor, at Misplaced Pages:VisualEditor/Feedback. Thank you, Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:22, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Breeze Barton merge

As you participated in Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Breeze Barton, you may be interested to learn that I have opened a discussion to propose merging the article's contents to List of Marvel Comics characters: B. Feel free to comment. Taylor Trescott - + my edits 20:54, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Clarification on Murray Rothbard

I didn't delete the "economist" thing, I just relegated it to the end of the lede (still a somewhat prominent position relative to the rest of the article). The reason for that is that the article, and his notable contributions, mostlyr elate to political theory or activism, not economics. Steeletrap (talk) 00:00, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Hello Gamaliel. In this instance, I must agree with Steeletrap this seems a reasonable edit. There are sources which call MR an economist, but there are also sources which call him a political theorist, anarchist activist, etc. The lede should reflect the weight of the content in the article, and despite a lot of complaining and even warring over various issues none of the Rothbard editors has added content which establishes "economist" as being more than a marginal part of his adult activities or contributions. SPECIFICO talk 00:06, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

This discussion should be held on Talk:Murray Rothbard where all editors can participate. Gamaliel (talk) 03:15, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 16 October 2013

Opinion pieces

Opinion pieces are not reliable sources. In the article on Weekly Standard, the neoconservative label is already noted in the opening paragraph extensively. It doesn't need to be made twice including in the opening sentence when most reliable independent sources call it conservative. You seem to be pushing a point of view and trying to slant this encyclopedia's coverage of article subjects. That would be inappropriate. Candleabracadabra (talk) 22:29, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

What is inappropriate is removing all the citations because you don't like one or two. If you don't like the opinion pieces, take them out and leave the straight news pieces. There's more than enough RS citations to justify calling them 'neoconservative'. This has nothing to do with BLP or POV. The sources say 'neoconservative', period. Gamaliel (talk) 22:31, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
I did not remove the citations. I moved them to the sentence in the very same opening paragraph where the label is discussed. Even the opinion pieces (which should be removed). We don't treat liberal writers or papers (NYT for example) this way. Please don't push your personal opinion and attempt to slant the encyclopedia's coverage. If you can get consensus for calling Tobin a liberal commentator, Chomsky a left-wing writer, and Dershowitz a liberal lawyer in their opening sentences then I am welcome to changing the way we treat conservatives. But consistency matters and there are good reasons we don't throw around labels willy nilly the way you are attempting. It's not appropriate. And it looks like an attempt to discredit their work. Stick to the facts and reliable sources. Candleabracadabra (talk) 22:37, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
You are the one who is not sticking to the facts and removing the fact that these reliable sources say "neoconservative". Gamaliel (talk) 22:44, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
Opinion pieces are not reliable sources. Most sources refer to it as conservative. And that it is conservative is noted extensively already (along with the neoconservative label) in the opening paragraph. So we already going beyond the standard treatment of labeling. We don't normally say John Doe is a liberal writer. We say John Doe is a writer. And then explain their writing and views as discussed in reliable independent sources (not opinion pieces). I hope this is clear enough. Candleabracadabra (talk) 23:10, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
We're not talking about John Doe, we're talking about a publication which is labeled "neoconservative" by multiple RS, non-opinion citations. The issue would be much clearer without irrelevant side issues like referring to BLP or complaining about opinion sources when the issue is what the factual sources say about a non-BLP. Gamaliel (talk) 23:14, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
Apart from left-wing hit pieces, the reliabel source including the International Herald Tribune cite you are using refer to it was a conservative magazine. The neoconservative label IS ALREADY INCLUDED IN THE OPENING PARAGRAPH. Covering that twice in teh very first paragraph is undue weight. The NYT is self described as liberal but I bet you it is not described so even once in the opening paragraph of Misplaced Pages's article on it. Please stop POV pushing. Candleabracadabra (talk) 23:18, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
How am I POV pushing when I'm including what the sources are saying? Please don't post such ridiculousness here again. Gamaliel (talk) 23:24, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Keith Olberman Article Preamble

Hey, Gamaliel, I think I tried to choose "Ahithophel" as my handle, but it was taken. ... Oh well.

I think the third paragraph of the article (the way it is at present) is incredibly biased. It reads as follows: "During his time at MSNBC, Olbermann established a niche in cable news commentary, gaining note for his pointed criticism of right-wing or conservative politicians and public figures. Though he has been described as a "liberal", he has resisted being labelled politically, stating "I'm not a liberal. I'm an American." The problem with any edit (including my earlier one) is that Olbermann is either (a) naïve in thinking he is not a liberal, or (b) disingenuous in pretending not to be a liberal, when it is clear he is liberal. As a result, letting him be naïve/deceptive biases the article in his favour, while calling him "disingenuous" (while true) slants it against him. The easiest solution would be to delete everything in the paragraph after "public figures" (so I'll do that now).

The way in which the sentence is incredibly biased can be seen if we change the names around a bit. Example #1: "Sean Hannity established a niche in cable news commentary, gaining notoriety for his pointed criticism of left-wing or liberal politicians and public figures. Though he has been described as a "conservative", he has resisted being labeled politically, stating "I'm not a conservative. I'm an American." (O'Reilly may be a better example as Hannity admits to being a conservative, while O'Reilly resists the conservative label and claims to be Independent, but on the partisanship scale Olbermann and Hannity would be similar as O'Reilly is not conservative on every issue and occasionally criticizes those on the right, while Olbermann is virtually always far-left and Hannity is virtually always far-right.)

Or, to use more examples from more offensive historical characters than Olbermann and Hannity or O'Reilly: "Though Eugene Terreblanche has been called a white supremacist in South Africa, he disputes the charge, stating, "I'm not a white supremacist, I'm an Afrikaaner." "Though Khaled Mashaal has been called a terrorist in Israel, he disputes the charge, stating, "I'm not a terrorist, I'm just a freedom fighter." "Though Joseph Stalin has been called a communist in Russia, he disputes the charge, stating, "I'm not a communist, I'm a Russian." "Though Adolf Hitler has been called a fascist in Germany, he disputes the charge, stating, "I'm not a fascist, I'm a German."

Anyway, the worst kind of bias in a biography of a political commentator or figure is the kind that is hard to spot by the casual reader. Generally (like in this one) it shows up when the author of the biography explicitly states (or else arranges the material in such a way as to imply or give the impression) that someone who is clearly on the left or the right may really be mislabeled and actually be a non-partisan.

So, in short, it is incredibly biased to say (or arrange the article to imply) "X has earned his name criticizing Y-wing politicians and has been called a Z-wing commentator, but he disputes the charge saying I am just an American is biased." It's biased if we say X=Hannity (or O'Reilly), Y=Left and Z=Right. And it's biased if we say X=Olbermann, Y=Right and Z=Left. Irenaeus7 (talk) 23:25, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

This discussion belongs on Talk:Keith Olbermann, where all editors to that article can participate. Gamaliel (talk) 23:33, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Shen Zhurong

Updated DYK queryOn 25 October 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Shen Zhurong, which you recently nominated. The fact was ... that Shen Zhurong is considered the Father of Library Science in China? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Shen Zhurong. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Gatoclass (talk) 00:03, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 23 October 2013

Books and Bytes: The Misplaced Pages Library Newsletter

Books and Bytes

Volume 1, Issue 1, October 2013

by The Interior (talk · contribs), Ocaasi (talk · contribs)

Greetings Misplaced Pages Library members! Welcome to the inaugural edition of Books and Bytes, TWL’s monthly newsletter. We're sending you the first edition of this opt-in newsletter, because you signed up, or applied for a free research account: HighBeam, Credo, Questia, JSTOR, or Cochrane. To receive future updates of Books and Bytes, please add your name to the subscriber's list. There's lots of news this month for the Misplaced Pages Library, including new accounts, upcoming events, and new ways to get involved...

New positions: Sign up to be a Misplaced Pages Visiting Scholar, or a Volunteer Misplaced Pages Librarian

Misplaced Pages Loves Libraries: Off to a roaring start this fall in the United States: 29 events are planned or have been hosted.

New subscription donations: Cochrane round 2; HighBeam round 8; Questia round 4... Can we partner with NY Times and Lexis-Nexis??

New ideas: OCLC innovations in the works; VisualEditor Reference Dialog Workshop; a photo contest idea emerges

News from the library world: Wikipedian joins the National Archives full time; the Getty Museum releases 4,500 images; CERN goes CC-BY

Announcing WikiProject Open: WikiProject Open kicked off in October, with several brainstorming and co-working sessions

New ways to get involved: Visiting scholar requirements; subject guides; room for library expansion and exploration

Read the full newsletter

Thanks for reading! All future newsletters will be opt-in only. Have an item for the next issue? Leave a note for the editor on the Suggestions page. --The Interior 22:02, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

You edited my fair comment on Morris Dees in the Southern Poverty Law center

I hardly understand why quoting legal documents about a public figure is not neutral. There are half a dozen lies and misleading one sided opinions on the page about the Ku Klux Klan why can the truth not be told about Morris Dees? It is after all my 1st amendment right to list a FACT is it not — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wolf28382 (talk • contribs) 00:09, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

The place to discuss this is Talk:Southern Poverty Law Center so all editors can participate in the discussion. Gamaliel (talk) 00:13, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
I've actually rev/del'd the edit and told the editor if they repeat some of the accusations I will block - if you see this and I'm not around, go straight to ANI or oversight, without mentioning any specifics. Dougweller (talk) 07:24, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Comment

Hi-some of your articles might turn up in some form on WikiProject Wisconsin and that is the main project I pay attention to. For example your article J.R.E. Lee showed up in the University of Wisconsin alumni category that I look at. There are several University of Wisconsin campuses including Madison so I made the change to reflect this. Many thanks-RFD (talk) 19:18, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Swaminaryan

Hello I was wondering if you could help me with editing a article for swaminarayan:

The Criticism section has been discussed and here is a suggested expansion. Any input would be helpful.

Several decades after formation of the movement, Swami Dayananda (1824–1883) questioned the acceptance of Swaminarayan as the Supreme Being and was disapproving towards the idea that visions of Swaminarayan could form a path to attaining perfection. Accused of deviating from the Vedas, his followers were criticised for the illegal collection of wealth and the "practice of frauds and tricks." In the views of Swami Dayananda, published as early as 1875, it was a "historical fact" that Swaminarayan decorated himself as Narayana in order to gain followers. Swaminarayan was criticized because he received large gifts from his followers and dressed and traveled as a Maharaja even though he had taken the vows of renunciation of the world.

Swaminarayan initiated reforms in both relationships without totally abolishing sex discrimination or caste differentiation. The interpretation and application of Swaminarayan’s reform raise two hotly debated issues of contemporary social ethics, the position of women society and the role of caste. However, while "many would assert that Swaminarayan Hinduism serves a patriarchal agenda, which attempts to keep women in certain roles", Swaminarayan himself, despite considerable criticism from those in his own contemporary society who "loathed the uplift of lower caste women," insisted that education was the inherent right of all people. According to Professor David Hardiman, "Swaminarayan's actions have propagated a vicious form of patriarchy that subjugates women." After traveling throughout India, he was reported to vomit even if approached by even the shadow of a women." Practices set forth by him seem to restrict women and make gender equality in leadership impossible. Professor Williams states, “No women are trustees of the religion nor do they serve on any managing committees of the major temples. Thus all the wealth and institutions are effective under the control of men.” Concepts of pollution associated with the menstrual cycle lead to the exclusion of women from the temples and daily worship. In case of widows, he directed those who could not follow the path of chastity to remarry. For those who could, he lay down strict rules which included them being under the control of male members of the family. This may seem regressive; however it gave them "a respected and secure place in the social order" of the time. He also directed male devotees not to listen to religious discourses given by women. Swaminarayan restricted widows "to live always under the control of male members of their family and prohibited them from receiving instruction in any science from any man excepting their nearest relations."

In relation to caste, as already suggested, the Swaminarayan order was and is predominantly conservative. Caste Divisions are scarely effaced by membership of the order and Harijans were formly excluded from Swaminarayan temples. Swaminarayan's sect dismissed caste as irrelevant to the soul's status before god though in practice, caste distinctions remained visible among them though reduced in complexity. He would eat along with the Rajput and Khati castes but not any lower. He established separate places of worship for the lower population where they were considerable. In the Shikshapatri, he wrote do not take food or water from a person of a lower caste. Members of a lower caste are prohibited from wearing a full sect mark (tilak chandlo) on their forehead. Even now, however, for the vast majority of Gujarat's lower-caste, Untouchable and tribal population, the sect is out of bounds.

If you can help me out. It would be very beneficial as I dont want to make mistakes. I put it on the talk page too but I have been getting attacked their so I am seeking outside help. Watch this for me. Thank you

Bluespeakers (talk) 16:09, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

You did the right thing in presenting this issue on the talk page the way you did. I will contribute to the discussion there. Gamaliel (talk) 18:41, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you so much. I may need your support as that same user is trying to block me. I really used all the tools I had to get help and this user is obsessed with me. I am afraid that I will get blocked and a moderator might just do it. If you can check my history and note that I have not done anything malicious would help. They are trying to make me guily by association. I am trying to do the right thing in a correct way. I am not a sock. Just picking up where my friend got a little overboard. I explained it where it is needed on the site but I know that you are an ally and know that I have not done any malicious content. I got accused for disagree with a patroller of that article who did not like when someone stood up.

Bluespeakers (talk) 19:54, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Hello,

I wanted to request your help. I explained it in detail and I cannot seem to get a moderator to understand that these people are controlling the article and ganging up on people that do not agree with their positive only portrayal of their religious group. I have posted my rebuttal on this link ] and these people really do not want certain information up. fter I posted the links that supported what was already being deleted and they still had a problem with that so I sought out help.

They want to group me with other socks who I personally know who made mistakes and where angry at the conclusion of their research. I am just picking up where they were blocked of because I can. At the end of the day, I have not done anything wrong, sought out help and remained civil. Please keep and eye out and see that the correct approach is taken. I was reading the pillars of Misplaced Pages and it is so sad that vandals come in and want to manipulate the site for their own benefit.

Please I beg you to take a look and see that I have no ill intention. I just want to make sure that the right unbiased information is being upheld. I swear this is not my purpose to bother you on Misplaced Pages but I am so taken back that I would get this severe resistance from group members that want to make sure that articles are only portrayed in a certain way. I am so sorry for taking your time. I can only imagine the stuff that you deal with on a constant basis with bigger topics. I am contacting moderators who have assisted people I know in the past. Thank you

Bluespeakers (talk) 02:36, 30 October 2013 (UTC)\

The problem is that there appears to be a pattern on this article of editors showing up on this article, making controversial edits, edit warring when they are reverted, getting blocked, then another one shows up and this process starts again. If these editors are all you, it would be best for you to admit this and pledge to use a single account from now on. I will do everything I can to insist that editors on this page engage in discussion regarding your proposed changes. But if this pattern of edit warring continues there is nothing I can to do help. Gamaliel (talk) 03:18, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
I responded to all the allegations and the truth of the matter is that people in my research did sock puppet. We did this as a group to research a religion and we picked Swaminarayan stuff. They felt like as students, they should have a place to put this information as it is valid and informative about a religious group that is tried to appear fairly clean. Then when they got push back from the patrollers, the reacted like crazy and started missing the whole point of discussion and started attacking. They had other people that went to different schools also get involved because anything critical was removed systematically. The IP's are the same because we share our department's computer and the library is open to all. There are a total of four people that I know who created accounts for these topics alone. I will get them to submit appeals and the main person is swami.fraud. Before they didn't have accounts and they would just contribute out of interest. I can see that hoe revealing your IP is considered bad. I revealed online that I attend a certain institution. Some nut on here that gets really offended could try to track us down. In a way I am glad that admins blocked a certain user because it became personal for that person and started getting people involved out of spite rather than trying to discuss. But none of their points were allow to be kept and I joined to finally give it a try mainly because one user started removing all critical information. Please keep this in mind when reviewing and I really appreciate your time. This is the most time I have ever spent on this site not reading an article.

Bluespeakers (talk) 13:19, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your support. I saw all your contributions on the Swaminarayan article and clearly no response has been given by other users because I believe those group of users are waiting for my account to be blocked. I have been requesting help and responding to all allegations but they have a team that they belong to and they control the articles. They belong to the group Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Swaminarayan. They commonly patrol the articles and agree with each other for the sake of keeping the article the way they want denouncing systematically anyone who disagrees. As soon as discussions about the recent rape allegations came out about their sect, they have been extra controlling and quick to remove that information. They have a administrator Bbb23 that has block my partners in the past (I agree the went overboard but still I will make sure they appeal their cases) and I want to make sure that I get a fair case. This is really getting out of control and their ganging up on users is something that needs to be investigated.

I now stated on all the people that I have asked help from: I also want to know that I am apart of an ongoing sock investigation and I am currently fighting. Here is the link https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Swamifraud. I do not want this to affect your ability to assist in this article so after reading some of the accusing parties attacks, I am displaying. Please take a look at the articles above and contribute because there are many people patrolling the articles making sure that their religious group is only being portrayed in a certain way.

Please let me know if I need to do anything else.

Bluespeakers (talk) 17:33, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Joseph Henry Reason

Updated DYK queryOn 31 October 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Joseph Henry Reason, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Howard University librarian Joseph Henry Reason was the first African-American to be nominated for president of the American Library Association? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Joseph Henry Reason. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 00:03, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Murphy

I strongly agree with your reversion of the creationist stuff. He's written a lot about it, but it needs secondary discussion. (I thought there were a couple SS; will look through the archives and make sure they're good ones (i.e. by scientists)) I strongly disagree with the mass deletion of the blogs. You'll find that all those blogs are written by experts (Professors of econ) who qualify for the exception under WP:SPS. Murphy's own remarks fall under WP:Aboutself. I ask you to reread the diffs and revert the latter stuff. Steeletrap (talk) 04:12, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

If you look at my comments at WP:AN3, you will find that I agree with you. Gamaliel (talk) 04:14, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
Please also note that the blogs are not used to establish facts about Murphy (we know he made the prediction and it failed from his ABOUTSELF posts), but rather to critique predictions/theories/methodologies we know (per himself) he endorsed. AQFK's confusion seems to have been on this front. Steeletrap (talk) 04:21, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to accomplish here since I already agree with you. I suggest you back off a bit and be less confrontational. You are just going to provoke people into hardening their positions when you should be trying to find common ground. Gamaliel (talk) 04:24, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
I think that's a fair suggestion. It can however be tough to do so on these libertarian/Austrian pages, for obvious reasons. Steeletrap (talk) 04:42, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
Hello Gamaliel. Your efforts on Murphy were timely and helpful. I wonder whether I could ask you about a practical problem which recurs on some of these articles and which I am not experienced or knowledgeable enough to handle as well as I would like. If you look at the Murphy Article talk page -- the section about the former section title (before the inflation prediction bit was removed) and also of you read Srich's recent 3RR complaint, you can see an example of what I'm about to ask. User Srich often cites policy justifications for his views and is convinced that he understands the cited policy fully applied it correctly. He believes that he's right and everyone else is wrong. OK. Question: Do you have any guidance as to an effective way for other editors to handle things when it appears that another editor is simply mistaken about policy? I see that you and Steeletrap have just had a straightforward discussion and resolution of a policy interpretation. What do we do when an editor is obstinate and simply repeats a (likely mistaken) view? It seems to happen over and over. Frankly, I feel at times that User Srich will post links to unrelated policies simply in order to rationalize removal of this or that text from an article. Regardless, is there a good way to handle such situations? Any guidance would be appreciated. Thanks, and thanks again for stepping in to help with the Murphy article. SPECIFICO talk 04:53, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
  1. Williams, Raymond Brady (2001). Introduction to Swaminarayan Hinduism. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. p. 76. ISBN 0 521 65279 0.
  2. "Swaminarayan Arti". Shri Swaminarayan Mandir, London. Retrieved 24 April 2013.
  3. Narayan, Kirin (1992). Storytellers, Saints and Scoundrels. Motilal Banarsidass,India. pp. 141–143. ISBN 81-208-1002-3.
  4. Narayan, Kirin (1992). Storytellers, Saints and Scoundrels. Motilal Banarsidass,India. p. 143. ISBN 81-208-1002-3.
  5. Williams 2001, p. 165
  6. Williams 2001, p. 165
  7. Rudert, A. (2004). "Inherent Faith and Negotiated Power: Swaminarayan Women in the United States". Cornell University. Retrieved 2009-05-10. {{cite web}}: |chapter= ignored (help); External link in |chapterurl= (help); Unknown parameter |chapterurl= ignored (|chapter-url= suggested) (help)
  8. http://www.jstor.org/stable/4379024
  9. http://www.jstor.org/stable/4379024
  10. http://books.google.com/books?id=OegOWaEeLgoC&pg=PA18&dq=vomit+swaminarayan&hl=en&sa=X&ei=js1vUobXBZGl2AWIyIDwCQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=vomit%20swaminarayan&f=false
  11. Williams 2001, p. 165
  12. Williams 2001, p. 166
  13. Williams 2001, p. 169
  14. Williams 2001, p. 167
  15. http://www.shikshapatri.org.uk/~imagedb/hms/mss_obj.php?type=units&id=34&brief=1&alltrans=1
  16. http://www.shikshapatri.org.uk/~shik/pdf/arthdipika-isso.pdf
  17. The Camphor Flame: Popular Hinduism and Society in India Christopher John Fuller P. 173
  18. Indian Society and the Making of the British Empire, Issue 2002 Christopher Alan Bayly P. 161
  19. Williams 2001, p. 170
  20. http://www.jstor.org/stable/4379024
  21. http://www.shikshapatri.org.uk/~shik/pdf/arthdipika-isso.pdf
  22. The Structure of Indian Society: Then and Now A. M. Shah P. 117