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If you had stuck with just your argument and not unfounded accusations against me, I would have respected that, but...what is at issue is this; The First Amendment article is linking to actual clauses such as the ] which is a part of THIS series of articles. However, on the Second Amendment article the link is, one - changed to add the wording "of the people" to the article it links to...which is about a concept not a clause and two - not a part of this series of articles which leads me to believe it is a POV fork.--] (]) 03:49, 4 November 2013 (UTC) If you had stuck with just your argument and not unfounded accusations against me, I would have respected that, but...what is at issue is this; The First Amendment article is linking to actual clauses such as the ] which is a part of THIS series of articles. However, on the Second Amendment article the link is, one - changed to add the wording "of the people" to the article it links to...which is about a concept not a clause and two - not a part of this series of articles which leads me to believe it is a POV fork.--] (]) 03:49, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

:I'm going to ask once for you to stop the ]. You've made your argument, but no one has accepted it, while numerous editors have explained the SCOTUS role and process to you. You need to ] and please stop. <span style="border:1px solid #900;padding:2px;background:#fffff4">]&nbsp;]</span> 06:13, 4 November 2013 (UTC)


==Proposal for lead== ==Proposal for lead==

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Article style

In my opinion, this article has become an in-depth discussion of the second ammendment, but it has lost is purpose as an encyclopedia article. I am not a lawyer. Instead, I am an economist grad student doing research on arms trafficking between the U.S. and Mexico, and I came to the article in order to look for context in my research. I was looking for an article that summarized what the second ammendment says, and its practical consequences in the present, but instead I found a historical account of its interpretations. In short, I was not able to find the information I was looking for. I do not pretend to say that the information in this article has no place in wikipedia, but it should be in a more detailed article, or at least after some basic sections that summarize basic information on the second ammendment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.120.171.227 (talk) 18:49, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry that the information was not more useful to you. The difficulty is that the power of the second amendment is defined by the history. There is no definitive source of what it means, except for the various rulings that courts have made over the centuries. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:55, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
Hello 209.120.171.227. I’m not sure why you came to this page for your research. Many editors, myself included, believe this article is too detailed as it is.
I suggest looking at Arms trafficking, ATF gunwalking scandal and "The Way of the Gun" (PDF). Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 16:46, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
I've been told by one book writer and another person who works in academia that they have used Misplaced Pages articles solely for their reference and further reading lists. Apparently, if nothing else, we as WP editors excel at ferreting out sources for information.
@209.120.171.227, as for what you are looking for, it doesn't exist. The court judgements notwithstanding, its all a matter of interpretation depending on an individual's perspective, so its a continuum. To understand what you are seeking, try to come up with a model that states the continuum in its most basic way. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 06:00, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
It may not exist, but it should exist, and it should be the beginning of a Misplaced Pages article. Misplaced Pages is not meant for detailed discussion of topics, it simply evolved to include that since the internet provides no limit on the amount of information it includes, but the basic discussion should never be missing. Try to think about what an article on the second ammendment in the Encyclopaedia Britannica included. They somehow managed to discuss any topic briefly so that somebody wanting some basic knowledge could find it quickly. Although Misplaced Pages should not be limited to this kind of reader, it should start any article with simple descriptions of the subject, and this article fails to do so. Try thinking as well of a highschool student reading this article, and you get the idea that the ultimate goal of Misplaced Pages, which is to provide knowledge to everybody, is lost. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.120.171.227 (talk) 16:55, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

As a guide to editors, the main question I was trying to answer was to what extent states are bound in the present by the second amendment. What if citizens in a state voted to ban all guns? What if they voted to ban all guns except small firearms? This may sound like something I should know, but I am not American, so I have no idea. The introduction shows that the interpretation was historically controversial, but it says nothing about the present interpretation. If may be the case that the interpretation is still controversial, but in that case the introduction should clearly say it. It only says that "the debate between the 'gun control' and 'gun rights' movements and related organizations continues", which is a debate about whether guns should be banned, but it is not a debate on the second amendment, which would be a debate on whether guns are actually banned. 209.120.171.227 (talk) 17:16, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

The "topic" of this article isn't a person or a field or technology, it is a 27 word sentence. So, once we spend 27 words covering it, everything else is stuff related to it (history, interpretations, impacts etc.) I think that most of the things that you are seeking to learn involve other areas such as the US legal system in relation to the constitution, and the interaction between the constitution and politics. But in thinking through an answer to your question, I realized that you are right, this article is unclear in a key area. The (not unlimited) right for personal ownership of and main uses of firearms was basically unquestioned (and not dealt with in the courts) until the last few decades, at which time the interpretation of the protections offered by the 2nd Amendment became a topic of importance and debate. The Heller decision decided the biggest questions, but, as in inherent in doing so, left large areas untouched, essentially leaving the untouched areas to the discretion of lawmakers and lower courts. We have an oddity that our amendments only limit what the Federal government can do to you until they are "incorporated" at which time they also limit what lower governments can do to you. The McDonald case did this with the 2nd amendment.
There are folks here who wish that what I just described weren't so and in deference to them / in a spirit of compromise with them, I think that we have obscured it in this article. North8000 (talk) 17:58, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
There are ample other articles about the socio economic and political ramifications of 2A elsewhere on Misplaced Pages. The purpose of this article is to document and present information about the Amendment itself. This article will (and should) never be what you are seeking. Furthermore, the characterization you have of the final sentence of the lead is exactly the kind of non-neutral point of view that we are going to great lengths to avoid.
Interestingly, I find your characterization of the last sentence of the introduction rather telling. Why do you think the debate between gun control and gun rights groups is about banning guns? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 00:31, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

After a couple of months working in the subject, I can finally see that what I wanted to look for in the article is actually in the third paragraph of the article, although it is written in such a way that an uninformed reador is not able to understand it. I am sure most contributors to this article are lawers that know perfectly well how common law works and the way it makes precedents binding. But many readers don't, especially those who are not lawyers and those who live in countries with different legal systems (like myself). I am aware that most English-speaking nations have common law, but wikipedia in English is read by many readers all over the world, and I guess you should make sure that a universal reader understands that two cases like those mentioned in the third paragraph have huge implications. 209.120.171.227 (talk) 19:36, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

While I sympathize with your point, and am certainly open to improving the wording to address this issue - an article on the second amendment is not the place to describe how the entire system of American law (or any other country that is based on common law) works. Every page on every law or amendment would need to serve as a primer for the legal system in which it exists, which is not a viable model for an encyclopedia. I will think on wording that could help elucidate this issue without causing more problems than it fixes. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:44, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Lead revisited

I have edited the lead to be more neutral and remove a POV fork to another article that is hotly debated in the United States. I have removed the claim of what right the amendment protects and simply added the actual text as it reads.--Mark Miller (talk) 23:19, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I have restored the consensus-based Introduction. Please reach consensus here for any substantive change to the Introduction before making such change. Adding a quote of the amendment to the Introduction is redundant as the text of the amendment is already in the Text section. SMP0328. (talk) 00:39, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
It can't be redundant in the lead as the lead is for a summary of the sections and body of the article. I have reverted you as your edit summary is not satisfactory. One does not require to seek consensus for a bold edit and the above discussion seems to be pointed at other discussion. POV forks are against Misplaced Pages Policy and how that slipped by that entire discussion is odd, but I am challenging it now. The sentence is immediately contradicted by the actual lead itself where two conflicting Supreme court cases have placed the question as to whether the claim is accurate. There is no way we can claim that the second amendment is, what it was claiming to be and then leading the reader to an article that expands that point of view. Please discuss as you suggested, but I would request that reverts have more reasoning than against consensus. That means nothing without the proper context and I really don't see consensus for that alone. The rest of the lead as discussed in detail above has not been altered.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:48, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
Bbb23 has reverted again, and asked for this to be "fleshed out on the talk page". So I will request further input from editors involved in the above discussion and the projects for further community input. This may have been brought up and was never fully discussed.
This seems to be something of a continuation of some other discussions. So I will proceed with caution as this is surely a hot button topic.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:55, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
(edit conflict, responding only to previous) Mark, there are so many things messed up with your post and edit that it would take a long post to address them. First, you basis for the claim about SMP's edit summary is the exact reverse.....their made sense, and yours didn't )regarding a "fork"....where is the "fork" article? Second, you seemed to have picked up the the "bold" terminology form BRD but ignored the rest. (Starting with the "R"). Third, the lead is not only consensused, it has followed the definition by the highest authority (SCOTUS) North8000 (talk) 00:57, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for responding North, Yes, I reverted a revert. One I found lacking of any actual reasoning on Misplaced Pages, regardless of your interpretation. The revert simply said "Gain consensus" and I don't have to, nor does anyone to make the edit, but defending the revert does take more than "there is a consensus". Highest authority...what does that even mean. They are a primary source. Analysis or interpretation of their wording is not for us and I see no RS to verify the claim that was made about what right the second amendment protects. Thoughts?--Mark Miller (talk) 01:17, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
The other stuff aside, I seen the first sentence of the lead to be a 30,000' view of what the 2A does and that such is in very firm ground. But it is just that, starting with the wording, with any big questions of the meaning of the wording having been clarified by SCOTUS. But as with any one sentence, you can't read too much into it / must recognize the ambiguities of any one sentence. For example, per the Scotus clarification it is not an unlimited & uncondtiional right nor is it one that unlimited conditions can be placed upon. Similarly, "right" also needs clarification....for example in this case it is a restriction against governmental restrictions, not an entitlement in the sense that we have to buy people guns etc. I think that the later sentences / content of the article need to be relied on to refine what can't be handled in a single sentence. North8000 (talk) 01:37, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
Supreme Court decisions are not primary sources. The Constitution is the primary source. SMP0328. (talk) 01:30, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
That is ridiculous, and extremely inaccurate. Supreme Court decisions are primary sources and interpretations of their decisions are secondary. The constitution itself is indeed a primary source as well, but the two are separate documents. Can you demonstrate this suggestion?--Mark Miller (talk) 01:40, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

The current language is appropriate, based on District of Columbia v. Heller and McDonald v. City of Chicago. This is supported by plenty of RS, such as the following secondary sources:

  • "Thus, the core Second Amendment right . . . is the individual right to keep and bear arms, specifically handguns, in self-defense." Jeff Golimowski, Note: Pulling The Trigger: Evaluating Criminal Gun Laws In A Post-Heller World49 Am. Crim. L. Rev. 1599, 1616 (2012).
  • "In District of Columbia v. Heller, the Supreme Court finally determined that the Second Amendment confers, at a minimum, an individual right to possess arms within one's home for the purpose of self-defense." Ben Howell, Come and Take It: The Status of Texas Handgun Legislation After District of Columbia v. Heller, 61 Baylor L. Rev. 215, 216 (2009).
  • "Two years later, McDonald v. City of Chicago incorporated the individual right to keep and bear arms established in Heller to all fifty states." Laura Mehalko, This Is Gun Country: The International Implications of U.S. Gun Control Policy, 35 B.C. Int'l & Comp. L. Rev. 297, 308 (2012).
  • "n which it unambiguously held, for the first time in history, that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms." Clark Neily, District of Columbia v. Heller: The Second Amendment Is Back, Baby, Cato Sup. Ct. Rev., 2007-2008, at 127.

Plus, primary sources are acceptable in this context, see WP:MOSLAW ("Where both primary and secondary sources are available, one should cite both. While primary sources are more "accurate", secondary sources provide more context and are easier on the layperson. Where primary and secondary sources conflict factually, the primary source should be given priority."). Clearly an article about an amendment to the U.S. Constitution falls under MOSLAW. There is no need to change the lede. GregJackP Boomer! 03:46, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Agree. And to add suspenders to that belt, the syllabus is prepared by someone else (the reporter of decisions). North8000 (talk) 11:46, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
A good deal of what I see above may also be countered with RS and I see no attempt to balance the lead or the rticle. In short, this is a political podium making claims that are contentious as if they ae fact and they are not. They are a summary of specific RS to prop up (from my view at least) a claim of what some feel the 2 amendment may be, but is argued otherwise. This article makes claims in Misplaced Pages's voice of authority as if this is set fact. it isn't.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:31, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
Actually, the lead is balanced, and it is a "set fact." The Supreme Court has determined that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms. In the U.S., "It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is." Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. (1 Cranch) 137 (1803). Once SCOTUS has said that this is what the Second Amendment says, that's it. Other fringe views on what it means can be address in the main body of the article, so long as they are not given undue weight, but they do not merit inclusion in the lede. GregJackP Boomer! 14:45, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
Excuse the hell out of me. Fringe theory did you say? I haven't said anything about any theories, yet you attack my post questioning the neutrality of this article that has a POV fork that directs the reader to that expressed opinion. Gee...how strong is that claim if you require a fork in the lead? And no...Once SCOTUS has spoken that is certainly not the end. There are certainly many people that debate that. Tell me something...why is your lead so short for a B article? Seriously. it is VERY clear that this article has declined to actually COVER the body of the article and you just admitted that anything that disagrees with your interpretation is fringe and doesn't go in the lead. Funny...I seem to remember the Prop 8 article being forced to show all sides even after the SCOTUS had handed down its decision. This is far from a B article and the lead is not neutral, makes claims as if there is no further debate and actually tells the reader to go to another article to reinforce that POV. Funny, but I do not remember the US Supreme Court going back in time and receiving this clarification. So I would expect an encyclopedia to be honest and state facts and not make claims. The truth is, if you wish to claim this individual right mandate from SCOTUS...you need to spell that out in the lead as you have it as if it has always been and everyone agrees and no problem exists with that interpretation. This isn't that other article. This is the article on the second amendment and you have cut the lead to a simple political agenda of stating only the outcome and not the history in a very convenient way. Very sad state this article is in. Seriously.--Mark Miller (talk) 11:01, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
You are excused, and nowhere did I attack you or your post. Your reply does indicate a lack of understanding on the legal issues however. In Hollingsworth v. Perry, 133 S.Ct. 2652 (2013), all SCOTUS decided was the standing issue. The Court did not decide if gays had a constitutional right to marry, so the inclusion of various theories of the law is appropriate.
In both of the Second Amendment cases, SCOTUS was very clear that 1) it protected an individual right to keep and bear arms, and 2) it applied to the states via the Fourteenth Amendment. That is the law. Any other view is not relevant to the application of the law, and is fringe. For a good explanation on this, see Judge Posner's opinion in Moore v. Madigan, 702 F.3d 933 (7th Cir. 2012). He clearly accepts that the SCOTUS opinion is the law - even though he just as clearly disagrees with it.
There is a distinct difference in a party not having standing to bring a case and SCOTUS affirmatively stating what rights are guaranteed by part of the Bill of Rights. Seriously. GregJackP Boomer! 12:03, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Mark, for the sake of clarification in this discussion, what's missing from the Lead? Many editors spent a considerable amount of time to craft as concise of a four paragraph lead as we could. I'm not saying there is not room for improvement, but the article is simply "about" the Amendment and its history (recent and less so) as the editor's note states. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 23:05, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

If you feel everything is over than you need not worry right? Yes, I see some time has gone into the discussion above. Time is of little consequence when the article is never finished and others feel that a B rating requires a summary of the body of the article, not just what a few editor think it is "about". The lead states point information in a manner that assumes no controversy when there is. State what the amendment says FIRST, then go into a brief summary of the article. Even if you make the claim of what the amendment is "said" to protects it needs to state when that interpretation was applied just like other articles.
Look, I have nothing against guns or the right to have them so don't assume I am just some anti gun nut wanting to pour my POV over the article. I understand the way SCOTUS works, I understand the way leads should be written and this is not a B lead.--Mark Miller (talk) 11:20, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
OK, let's use the 15th amendment as a guide/example. It was controversial and then tested in/by Scotus. Where is the kind of stuff that you are asking for in that article / article lead? North8000 (talk) 11:55, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
Indeed court decisions are primary sources and articles should be based on secondary ones. North8000's comment that the meaning of the wording has been clarified by the Court is inaccurate. The Court may decided how a law should be interpreted, but what the law actually means should be determined by reference to secondary sources. It is worth noting that 4 justices dissented from the opinion. Also, the lead is misleading in that it implies the court decided that the right was a "natural right", when Justice Scalia, who is one of the foremost legal theorists in the U.S., rejects the concept of natural rights. The majority opinion of the Court was that it protected a positive right, i.e., whatever right the law allowed in 1789. TFD (talk) 19:14, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
4 justices dissenting is irrelevant as the majority opinion sets law. However, even within the dissenting opinions there was a unanimous holding that the second amendment protects an individual right. (As is explicitly stated in the dissent). You have asserted repeatedly that Scalia rejected a natural rights interpretation, but have yet to find a single source actually saying so in relation to Heller. Curious as the ruling repeatedly refers to natural rights. The asserted restriction to 1789 is likewise unsourced and WP:OR. You (and others) may certainly disagree as to what the amendment should mean, but what it currently legally does mean is not contested (although the bounds of the protection are certainly ambiguous at this point). /There are numerous secondary sources covering the individual rights ruling, so this should not be an issue. Stop making a WP:POINT. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:21, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
I provided the sources in previous discussions and also mentioned that nowhere does the Court say that their decision is based on natural rights theory. The division between liberal supporters of natural rights theory and conservative supporters of originalism is central to American jurisprudence. While the Court is entitled to determine how a law should be interpreted, it does not override the policy of neutrality. TFD (talk) 19:31, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
See this and GregJackP's comment from October 26. Also, the dissenting opinions are noted in the article. SMP0328. (talk) 19:35, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
Beyond that, the natural right mentioned in our lede is self defense, not rtkaba. The "natural right of self defense" is explicitly covered in the opinion. so your argument is a non-starter anyway. Neutrality says we accurately describe the law. There is ZERO controversy about what the law actually is. Some don't like it. Some want to change it. Great. We can talk about that. But it has zero impact on what the law actually is. I fully agree scalia is known for being dismissive of natural rights arguments in the past. You are correct, he does not specifically say "the rtkaba is a natural right". But he does explicitly say it is a fundamental right, and repeatedly and explicitly uses natural rights arguments to bolster his opinion. You may not like that, but you are not in the matrix. There is a spoon. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:42, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
@TFD, you inference that there is some conflict between Scotus and neutrality is vague/unexplained, but I am guessing that you were implying that its finding was just an "opinion" on a disputed matter of the meaning. Since this is a matter of law, their finding is not an opinion on the reality, it is by definition/ defines the reality. North8000 (talk) 21:22, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

indeed. I think a great analogous case is Abortion_in_the_United_States and Roe v. Wade where the topic is equally controversial and BOTH sides are unhappy with the RvW ruling (as well as unhappy with the later Casey decision) and debating what the law should be and how the rulings may be incorrectly decided (in the opinion of those arguers), but the article very plainly says what the rulings were and keeps the objections for the body.

Lede secondary sources


To what extent should these be added to the article? They all look helpful. SMP0328. (talk) 20:56, 28 October 2013 (UTC)


Additional lede references

Primary sources

Note that under WP:MOSLAW, primary sources are in fact supposed to be cited for legal articles.

  • "Putting all of these textual elements together, we find that they guarantee the individual right to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation." D.C. v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570, 592 (2008).
  • "There seems to us no doubt, on the basis of both text and history, that the Second Amendment conferred an individual right to keep and bear arms." Heller, 554 U.S. at 595.
  • "In District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570, 128 S.Ct. 2783, 171 L.Ed.2d 637 (2008), this Court held that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms for the purpose of self-defense. . . ." McDonald v. City of Chicago, 130 S. Ct. 3020, 3059 (2010).
  • " provision of the Bill of Rights that protects a right that is fundamental from an American perspective applies equally to the Federal Government and the States. See Duncan, 391 U.S., at 149, and n. 14, 88 S.Ct. 1444. We therefore hold that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment incorporates the Second Amendment right recognized in Heller." McDonald, 130 S. Ct. at 3050.
  • "e are bound by the Supreme Court's historical analysis because it was central to the Court's holding in Heller." Moore v. Madigan, 702 F.3d 933, 937 (7th Cir. 2012).
  • "We are disinclined to engage in another round of historical analysis to determine whether eighteenth-century America understood the Second Amendment to include a right to bear guns outside the home. The Supreme Court has decided that the amendment confers a right to bear arms for self-defense, which is as important outside the home as inside. The theoretical and empirical evidence (which overall is inconclusive) is consistent with concluding that a right to carry firearms in public may promote self-defense. Illinois had to provide us with more than merely a rational basis for believing that its uniquely sweeping ban is justified by an increase in public safety. It has failed to meet this burden. The Supreme Court's interpretation of the Second Amendment therefore compels us to reverse the decisions in the two cases before us and remand them to their respective district courts for the entry of declarations of unconstitutionality and permanent injunctions." Moore, 702 F.3d at 942 (emphasis added).

GregJackP Boomer! 23:24, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Secondary sources

  • "he United States Supreme Court ruled in District of Columbia v. Heller that U.S. citizens have an individual right to possess guns under the Constitution's Second Amendment." Jeff Golimowski, Note: Pulling The Trigger: Evaluating Criminal Gun Laws In A Post-Heller World, 49 Am. Crim. L. Rev. 1599 (2012).
  • "Thereafter, the Supreme Court, in District of Columbia v. Heller, in an originalist opinion, made explicit the implicit original meaning of the Second Amendment by ruling that it protected an individual right." Lee J. Strang, An Originalist Theory of Precedent: The Privileged Place of Originalist Precedent, 2010 B.Y.U.L. Rev. 1729, 1779 (2010).
  • "he U.S. Supreme Court held that the Second Amendment confers a fundamental, individual right to possess a firearm. . . ." Amos N. Guiora, Self-Defense - From the Wild West to 9/11: Who, What, When, 41 Cornell Int'l L.J. 631 (2008).

GregJackP Boomer! 23:24, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Comments

It does not matter what other academics have opined on what the Second Amendment means. Those positions are neither the law, nor mainstream at this point. Legal academics are clear on what SCOTUS decided, and it is reflected in the article. Any contrary position should be covered in the body of the article, not the lede, and should not be given undue weight, any more than any other fringe theory is given. GregJackP Boomer! 23:24, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Hello Mark – welcome to 2A Talk. I read your claim about POV in the opening sentence and saw your proposed “fix”. I found your arguments unpersuasive. Simply adding the actual text when it is shown directly below seems redundant. The text says what it says. The meaning of the text is and has been open to conjecture, however it is SCOTUS’s duty to determine meaning and limitations of the amendment. All of this is covered in the lede. I am not sure what you mean by “POV fork” – if you are referring to the wikilink, where is that POV? Just saying something is POV doesn’t make it so. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 17:43, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
Hi Grahamboat, your argument is simply innacurate as the lead will be redundant as that is its purpose...to summarize what is in the article.
As for the claims of fringe view that is nonsense and very POV. Also WP:MOSLAW, states:"In general Where both primary and secondary sources are available, one should cite both. While primary sources are more "accurate", secondary sources provide more context and are easier on the layperson. Where primary and secondary sources conflict factually, the primary source should be given priority".--Mark Miller (talk) 23:39, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
As The Four Deuces stated: "Indeed court decisions are primary sources and articles should be based on secondary ones. North8000's comment that the meaning of the wording has been clarified by the Court is inaccurate. The Court may decided how a law should be interpreted, but what the law actually means should be determined by reference to secondary sources.". This article is a rather POV version of what some think the amendment means. Also of note is the comment that once SCOTUS has spoken, that's it is a false. It is never the end. It certainly isn't the end with DOMA now is it?--Mark Miller (talk) 23:43, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
Scotus is not a source on the 2A, it is the definer of the reality. North8000 (talk) 23:54, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
Could you explain that in further detail please?--Mark Miller (talk) 23:56, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
Since Marbury v. Madison (1803), the Supreme Court has been considered the official definer of what the Constitution means (see also City of Boerne v. Flores (1997)). That's why, for example, people who oppose the right to abortion accept that there currently is such a right. The Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that such a right exists and so there is such a right. The Supreme Court may overrule these rulings and thereby rule that there is no such Constitutional right, but until then there is such a right. A classic example of the Supreme Court doing this is regarding the liberty of contract (see Lochner v. New York (1905) and West Coast Hotel Co. v. Parrish (1937)). The same is true of the individual right to keep and bear arms. The Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled (see Heller and McDonald) that there is an individual right to keep and bear arms and so there is such a Constitutional right. The Supreme Court might overrule those decisions in the future, but has not yet done so and so there is such a right. SMP0328. (talk) 00:39, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
The issue is not the right, or even the definition of the right, but that the SCOTUS is not the last word on that right. They are but one part of the US government. But everything you just stated is original research and would require a source to be included in the actual article. I simply reject the reasoning that has been put forward and clearly others have as well. I see this as a very good candidate for WP:DRN.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:57, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
I'm not asking for what I wrote above to be added to the article. You asked for further explanation and I gave it. What the Constitution legally means is determined by the Supreme Court. Others may disagree with specific interpretations the Supreme Court gives the Constitution or may even disagree with the Supreme Court having this authority, but the Supreme Court is the final word on what the Constitution legally means. SMP0328. (talk) 01:30, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Hello...North8000...is this thing working? *Tap* *Tap* *Tap*.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:59, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Actually, SMP0328. clearly explained what North8000 said. "It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is." Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137, 177 (1803). That's not an old, obsolete decision either. See United States v. Windsor, 133 S. Ct. 2675, 2688 (2013), where the Court cites it for the DOMA decision, which is, BTW a final decision on the points before the Court. SMP's example of Lochner v. New York, 198 U.S. 45 (1905) is a perfect example, as is Brown v. Board of Education, 347 U.S. 483 (1954). Other's may state what they believe the law should be, but that has no meaning. Congress can pass a new law, but as long as the law remains unaltered, what SCOTUS says is in fact the last word. That is also the clear consensus here. GregJackP Boomer! 01:46, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
Nope. Not a clear consensus. If I were the only one arguing against that you might be correct, but I am not. If North feels that he need not answer to my request to expand on their comment that is clearly WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Consensus is not what everyone agrees with, it is what everyone can live with and clearly that is not the case here.--Mark Miller (talk) 01:57, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
How do you figure? I count the following as saying that the lede is correct, that SCOTUS has spoken and the other views should be addressed in the body:
  • Gaijin42, Grahamboat, GregJackP, North8000, Scalhotrod, SMP0328
Against that view is:
  • Mark Miller, TFD
Uh, that's a 3:1 ratio, or 75%-25%. That's a pretty clear consensus. GregJackP Boomer! 06:53, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
Consensus is not a count of !votes. That is not a clear consensus. That doesn't even count as a rough consensus.--Mark Miller (talk) 07:11, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
I never said it was a count of !votes. You do have 75% of the editors who are commenting all saying the same thing. Legal minds also say the same thing. Take for example the opinion in Moore v. Madigan cited above. Judge Posner is well known for disagreeing with the view that the 2A grants an individual right to firearms. However he also understands that once SCOTUS has spoken, the debate on what the law means is over.
You are also wrong about consensus - it is not what "everyone" can live with, it is what the clear majority believes to be. See WP:CONSENSUS. Finally, you appear to be the only one who has an issue with this. GregJackP Boomer! 20:02, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
But...I feel the best way forward may be an alternative to DR/N. I shall consider our options.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:01, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Mark, in case you are not familiar, a few editors aren't on and editing Misplaced Pages 24/7. So your "tap tap" and "If North feels that he need not answer to my request to expand on their comment" inferences might be appropriate 1-3 days later but are pretty silly and inappropriate 1 and 2 hours later. And your building your "I didn't hear that" crap and stupidly linking to the disruption page based on that/your silly mis-action is badly out of line and bordering on a personal attack. STOP. North8000 (talk) 11:13, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Answering your question, the 2A is a US legal mechanism, and Scotus (where it has ruled) is ultimate and final DEFINER of (not source on) what the amendments legally mean. And in the US, the official legal meaning is the REALITY with respect to a legal instrument. A statement of what the 2A does is a statement of its legal meaning and legal effects. North8000 (talk) 11:23, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Regarding documents the decision itself in the document (not the summary) is the words of the justices and their decision and is a primary source on what the court has defined. The syllabus portion of the document was written by someone else. North8000 (talk) 11:40, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

North...I asked the question 2 minutes after you left the comment. Just because you immediately walked away, please do not make sound as if I was being impatient. You just made what we call a drive by comment. I was actually expecting that you would simply return the comment as you appeared to be editing at that time. If you really feel a personal attack was made...report it, but please do not pretend it to be "reality". I also feel you explanation is just far from what SCOTUS is for. It does NOT define a reality of any kind it merely interprets what they feel at the moment. They were not there 200+ years ago so it is impossible for them to know the reality of that time.--Mark Miller (talk) 18:46, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
"They were not there 200+ years ago so it is impossible for them to know the reality of that time." -- An accurate statement, but not relevant to this article or to the role of SCOTUS in saying what the law means. GregJackP Boomer! 20:05, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
@Mark, "impatient" was also the case but not what I wrote about. I wrote about insulting comments and beyond-ridiculouous false accusation which you built upon that unwarranted impatience. And my statement was to stop it, not that I wanted to report you for what you already did. North8000 (talk) 22:19, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
Oh please. I wrote: "Hello...North8000...is this thing working? *Tap* *Tap* *Tap*.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:59, 3 November 2013 (UTC)" That isn't impatience, its using humor with a ping. Clearly you did not like it and took it far beyond what it was intended as...a humorous ping.
You neglected to mention your second post with a link to wp:disruption. North8000 (talk) 00:53, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
You mean this: "If North feels that he need not answer to my request to expand on their comment that is clearly WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT". Sure, I can see calling that impatient. But I can also see it as stating that if you didn't reply yourself it would be. There is a lot of editors answering for and explaining for others. I assume AGF but also but wanted to make sure you knew I was waiting for your answer. Apologies for that specifically if that was what really ticked you off.--Mark Miller (talk) 01:34, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
But back to this: "Scotus (where it has ruled) is ultimate and final DEFINER of (not source on) what the amendments legally mean" No, they are not. Actually, the people are. And that is more than a political statement. It is fact, as the US constitution may be amended by the people and has many times to add and subtract "rights". Period. But there is more "argument" against you suggestion that SCOTUS "defines reality" and that is SCOTUS itself (Bolding/linking added for emphasis): "As the final arbiter of the law, the Court is charged with ensuring the American people the promise of equal justice under law and, thereby, also functions as guardian and interpreter of the Constitution." They are not the ultimate and final definer of reality or "what the constitution is". They are the final arbiters and merely interpret what the constitution seems to be to them with what they know at that time. So, for example, as with the DOMA decision, we still have the Secretary of Defense coming public to announce that something like 9 national guard units are refusing to comply with that decision. I do not know what reality we have here, but clearly SCOTUS was not the decider of it to those posts. As we have discussed with abortion, SCOTUS never decided a reality in Texas that many would argue (and at least on court) are unconstitutional laws, disregarding the SCOTUS decision of Roe vs Wade. Politics is a factor and cannot be excluded from the claim you made. Simply put...no, the United States Supreme Court does not define the constitution or its amendments. They interpret them and they are by no means the final word. There are always options. They are not dictators or emperors. They are Justices on the highest tribunal in the US. But that does not give them god like power or in anyway state or imply omnipotence.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:28, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
You have a lot mixed up there, but I'll just stick to the core point rather than getting into all of those. I never said all of those straw man variants that you are saying Scotus isn't. (dictators, emperors, "define the constitution", "god like", "omnipotence" etc.) Back to what I actually said, in areas that they have ruled, they DEFINE the operative, legal reality of the amendment. So, for the purposes of a statement of what the 2A does, where they have ruled they define that reality of what it does. North8000 (talk) 01:01, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
No they don't, and I have at least provided a reference to verify my claims from the SCOTUS website that they are merely the highest tribunal in the US with the right to arbitrate controversial subjects, and do not define a "legal reality" but simply interpret the constitution. I have no idea where you get the term "Legal reality" from. What does that mean exactly?--Mark Miller (talk) 01:22, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
I have been trying to use words that help explain it. Maybe this "shorthand" statement will help. If Scotus says that the XYZ amendment prevents the government from outlawing purple cats, then, the legal, operative reality is that the XYZ amendment prevents the government from outlawing purple cats. North8000 (talk) 01:39, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
No that didn't help and still makes a false argument of a "legal, operative reality" that somehow prevents the people from enacting their First amendment right to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:05, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
Wow Mark, No. Respectfully, you need a crash course in our form of government. We do not live in some kind of Ochlocracy...rights cannot be just added or subtracted by some mob depending on their whim or their state of ignorance. Here, study this, "we hold these truths to be self- evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights that among these are, life liberty...." Our rights are Self-evident and they are inalienable regardless of the degree of idiocracy that the mob descends to. They can't be added or subtracted!!! We enshrined a few common ones so we wouldn't have to argue over blatantly well established truths. But make no mistake, shredding the constitution would not remove these rights even if 99% of the people voted to do so! All our rights like the right to free speech and to bear arms arise from a much more fundamental place as Jefferson explained. My gosh, I take a break and come back to this? Thank you North8000, you stay true to the compass.-Justanonymous (talk) 02:36, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
Mark, what you are saying isn't even about this article anymore. You're not talking about what the Second Amendment means. Under your viewpoint, the Second Amendment means whatever the American People nationally, or the People in each State, want it to mean from time to time. That's not how things work in this country. If it did, the Bill of Rights would be meaningless. SMP0328. (talk) 02:47, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
Hey, I was discussing the single ideal that the last ruling by SCOTUS is the final word on a legal reality. Don't blame me for the abstract manner or course the discussion took. The point is, the US Supreme Court is not the actual final end to the legality of any interpretation they make.
But my actual point in the lead is the way it is written to exclude the other rights and matters that the amendment grants and that the lead fails to summarize the article in a proper manner. I strongly feel that the lead is giving undue weight to the fork article, Right to keep and bear arms in the United States which makes the summary very ambiguous where it should merely summarize what the "established" rights are and how they were established. That article is a fork right now only because you have to go there to find out the information you should be reading in this lead. You can link the article...but you still have to say more here. I think this article should be C class article at the moment.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:11, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
No Mark, it appears you are POV pushing. I read the other amendment entries and they have protect, prohibit etched in their summaries. I don't see you there lobbying to adjust those entries. Why this one? Here read this,

"The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, as one of the ten amendments that comprise the Bill of Rights."

I don't hear you arguing that this interpretation of the first is a POV fork.....why? Because you agree with the cited interpretation? There is a plain and self evident interpretation. You're POV pushing. Sorry......and yes, you're responsible for lapses in logic when you are refuted. By my count there are 7 editors who are making very strong refutations here and it's you that are guilty of WP:ididnthearthat. The WP:consensus is not just clear, you are refuted thoroughly.-Justanonymous (talk) 03:31, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
Mark if you were operating in good faith, you'd be lobbying for only the text to be included in all the bill of right ledes. You're transparent in your actions here. Please respect the consensus here. And no yet another drn will not be helpful nor help your cause.-Justanonymous (talk) 03:35, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

If you had stuck with just your argument and not unfounded accusations against me, I would have respected that, but...what is at issue is this; The First Amendment article is linking to actual clauses such as the Establishment Clause which is a part of THIS series of articles. However, on the Second Amendment article the link is, one - changed to add the wording "of the people" to the article it links to...which is about a concept not a clause and two - not a part of this series of articles which leads me to believe it is a POV fork.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:49, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to ask once for you to stop the disruption. You've made your argument, but no one has accepted it, while numerous editors have explained the SCOTUS role and process to you. You need to drop the stick and please stop. GregJackP Boomer! 06:13, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Proposal for lead

First, I propose to remove the wording "of the people" and simply link the concept as Right to keep and bear arms in the United States. I believe that is a reasonable proposition. Second, I would like to begin discussing bringing that article into this series of articles if appropriate and continue to discuss expanding the lead further the best we can to include some history, as the First Amendment article does.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:05, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Right to keep and bear arms is the "Right to Arms Clause" and more important there is also a "Militia Clause" which is missing and one of the other major issues I see with the lead.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:42, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

The lead should begin something like this:

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution establishes the right to keep and bear arms and a need to maintain a well regulated militia.

--Mark Miller (talk) 04:50, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Your reference is to lecture notes which were last updated in 2003 and, so, are out-of-date. SCOTUS held in 2008 that the prefatory clause merely announced a purpose and did not limit the operative clause. (That fact is found in the current article along with opposing views.) That being the case, bringing up the prefatory clause in the lead seems undue and may confuse the reader.
I'm confused by your suggestion above. Your original bold change was to add the text of the amendment to the lead, but now you propose to remove a phrase which is also found in that text. I don't see how removing that phrase improves the reader's understanding of the amendment. Nor does it seem to me to improve on a consensus reached only two months ago. Can you explain your reasoning? Celestra (talk) 05:07, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
My original bold change was a rather feeble attempt at a more neutral approach to what I felt was a POV fork away from this series of articles. The removal of the wording is precisely because that article's title does not use it and is more accurate in that is isn't the wording we are mentioning but the provision or clause, like the First Amendment article. It is not the only provision of the second amendment. While that article is brand new, it also doesn't seem a mess. It could use an edit here and there but that is irrelevant to the fact that I think that is all we have. If so we should incorporate it into this series, but it could use similar wording to define the clause itself and approach it in that manner, which the other similar articles do. And as I said, right now it doesn't mention the militia clause. Certainly we are not saying that SCOTUS has removed that clause or that their interpretations and rulings superceed it to the point of oblivion?--Mark Miller (talk) 05:23, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Mark, it seems that your edits (and/or opinions) might be more appropriate for the Heller case article since you are arguing what SCOTUS has the power to do or not. A similar comparison could be made with the 14th Amendment and Roe v. Wade articles. I'm not disputing your points, they just seem to be out of place. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 05:51, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

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