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• /Archive 1: July 2005 - Feb 2006.

Submissions requested on forgiveness article

I have been working on the Forgiveness article. Would someone be willing to take a stab at adding to the Hinduism stub under the "Formal religions and forgiveness" heading in that article and trying to concisely state the Hindu view on forgiveness? Any help would be appreciated. --speet 03:54, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Is the following an appropriate quote for the Hindu view on forgiveness?

Forgiveness is a great power

From The Mahabharata

Udyoga Parva Section XXXIII

Translated by Sri Kisari Mohan Ganguli

Addressing Dhritarashtra

Vidura said: There is one only defect in forgiving persons, and not another; that defect is that people take a forgiving person to be weak. That defect, however, should not be taken into consideration, for forgiveness is a great power. Forgiveness is a virtue of the weak, and an ornament of the strong. Forgiveness subdues (all) in this world; what is there that forgiveness cannot achieve? What can a wicked person do unto him who carries the sabre of forgiveness in his hand? Fire falling on the grassless ground is extinguished of itself. And unforgiving individual defiles himself with many enormities. Righteousness is the one highest good; and forgiveness is the one supreme peace; knowledge is one supreme contentment; and benevolence, one sole happiness.

Who were the first people to call us 'hindus'

I had included the following paragraph trying to show who might be the first people to call us 'hindus': 'Probably the first people to call Indians as 'Hindu' were a brother branch of Aryans, who migrated from India to Iran because of heat and fever (Avesta, India is mentioned as the fifteenth home of Aryans) before 2,000 B.C.E.'

This was removed by Shavez with the following comment: 'Aryans came from Europe, then why will they go back to Iran?'

To say Aryans came from Europe is laughable. Could Shavez give any reference? The only authentic reference to Aryan migration is from Avesta and is given below:

"I, Ahura Mazda, created as the first best region, Airyanam Vaejo, of the good creation. Then Angra Mainyu, the destroyer, formed in opposition to it, a great serpent (glacier?) and winter, the creation of Daevas. There are these ten months of winter and two of summer." 2. I, Ahura Mazda, created as the second best region, Gau (plains) in which Sughdha (Sogdiana?) is situated. Thereupon, in opposition to it, Angra Mainyu, the death-dealing, created a wasp which is death to cattle and fields. 3. I, etc., created as the third best region, Mouru (Margiana, Merv), the mighty, the holy. 4. I, etc., created as the fourth best region, the fortunate Bakhdhi (Bactria?), with the lofty banner. 5. I, etc., created as the fifth best region, Nisaya (situated between Mouru and Bakhdhi). 6. I, etc., created as the sixth best region, Haroyu (Herat), abounding in the houses (or water). 7. I, etc., created as the seventh best region, Vaekerata, where Dujak is situated (according to Darmesteter, of evil shadows). In opposition to it, Angra Mainyu, the destroyer, created the Pairika Khnathaiti, who clung to Keresaspa. 8. I, etc., created the eighth best region, Urva, full of pastures. 9. I, etc., created as the ninth best region, Khnenta (a river) in Vehrkana (Balkh? Valhika?). 10. I, etc., created the tenth best region, the fortunate Harahvaiti (Saraswati). 11. I, etc., created the eleventh best region, Haetumant, the rich and shining. 12. I, etc., created the twelveth best region, Ragha, with three fortresses (or races). 13. I, etc., created the thirteenth best region, Chakhra, the strong. 14. I, etc., created the fourteenth best region, Varena, with four corners; to which was born Thraetaona, who slew Azi Dahaka. 15. I, etc., created the fifteenth best country, Hapta Hendu (from the eastern to the western Hendu). In opposition, Angra Mainyu created untimely evils, and pernicious heat (or fever). 16. I, etc., created the sixteenth and best, the people who live without a head on the floods of Rangha (according to Haug 'on the seashore')."

B. G. Tilak places 'Airyanam Vaejo' in Sub-Arctic region because of a long night of two or three months mentioned in RigVeda (Ati Ratra - the greater night). There is no detail of their travels from that to Central Asia. The story warms up in Sogdiana, which is mentioned as the second region of Aryan habitation. After that, they seem to have lingered for a long time in the Central Asian region. One of their branches came to India and called the Punjab region as 'Sapta Sindhu'. Some of them left the Sapta Sindhu region because of 'pernicious heat'. They later moved to floods (seashore) of Rangha. That could be the southern Iranian coast or even the shores of Caspian Sea. That is where Avesta might have been written. Some Aryans might have gone straight from Central Asia to Iran.That this happened around 2,500-2,000 B.C.E. is indicated by the the compilation of and changes in Taittiriya Samhita of the RigVeda and the astronomical record.

These were the people who were familiar with the word 'Sindhu'. They would probably be the first to call us 'hindus'. I suppose my contention is not wrong. I am not editing the page this time, and would wait for inputs from Shavez and other contributors. Aupmanyav 11:03, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Significance of Bharat

The term Bharat has little to do with Hinduism and just don't see any reason for its inclusion. India is named as Bharat after the ancient kingdom of Bharatvarsha. What does that kingdom ha to do with Hinduism other than the fact that perhaps its founder, Emperor Bharata, was a Hindu? --Spartian 10:52, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

That was what makers of the Indian constitution decided. India was called as Bharatvarsha or Bharatkhanda in Hindu ceremonies. We do not know if Emperor Bharat is history or Mythology. This was perhaps a ploy to keep India a secular nation and ameliorate the feelings of hindus (Muslims had got their Pakistan at the same time). It can be changed by a 75% vote in the parliament. Indian constitution has been amended upteen number of times. Wanna try, have a go. Aupmanyav 12:45, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Lot of inaccuracies in this article

To claim before the invasion of Babur there was no common religion is incorrect. All corners of India/Bharat/Hindustan have/had ancient temples of Shiva, Vishnu etc. Thus these people were following same religion and believing in same Gods.

The whole aryan thing is tenous too.

Bharat has less to do with Hinduism but more to do with the name of the country.

+10 000 thundering typhoons 07:12, 16 March 2006 (UTC)+

Well, I don't agree with you entirely. Before the arrival of Islam, Hindus (as people living in the Indian subcontinent were known as before) had varying religious beliefs which exists even today. Hinduism has more denominations than any other religion in the world. I would say that all Hindus don't have common beliefs. But yes, to say that Hindus didn't have a common religion is a bit inaccurate. Thanks --Spartian 17:28, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

What don't you agree with? Believing in a pantheon of Gods has always been the Hindu way. Arrival of Islam had no impact on hinduism whatsoever. Though modern historians are searching for "positive impact" of Islam on Hinduism and India. People all over India, North/South/East/West believe in the same set of Gods and Godesses. This is not new. It has been like this way before Buddha and Mahavira i.e 9th century B.C.

Do you have some specifics you would like to discuss?

+10 000 thundering typhoons 11:37, 17 March 2006 (UTC)+

10,000 Thundering Typhoons - There is nothing tenous about the Aryans. These people were from Sub-Arctic Siberia (geographical conditions were different at that time and mammoths and other large mammals roamed in Tundra). These people were forced to leave their land 'Ariyanam Vaejo' by the advancing ice-age (20,000 B.C.). Their people percolated everywhere, in Central Asia where they remained for a long time, in India, in Iran, in Mesopotamia, Greece, Rome, Germany, and Scandinavia. Spartian - Hinduism has always been like that and perhaps always will be. It cannot be exclusive like the Abrahamaic religions. Aryan, Scythians, Parthians, Greeks, Kushans, Christianity, or Islam have had only marginal effect on Hinduism. Actually all the earlier immigrants accepted Hinduism. Indian religions (Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism) had more effect on Hinduism. Aupmanyav 14:04, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

First of all, I am not able to find this particular sentence in the article. Secondly, I would like to apologize for not getting your point. To say that before the arrival of Islam, Hindus didn't have a common religion and that after the Muslim invaders came, they had one is inaccurate. Thanks --Spartian 19:43, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Here it is "Prior to successful invasion of Indian subcontinent by Babar from Uzbekistan and later by European colonialists, there was no distinct definition of religion in India.".

+10 000 thundering typhoons 18:55, 18 March 2006 (UTC)+

That is not correct. The definition of Hinduism is very clear to intelligent people but not clear who would not like to understand. What is necessary for all Hindus is Dharma (Duty, right action). That is necessary for upkeep of society and cannot be trifled with. Where Hinduism has given complete freedom to an individual is personal belief. You can have a hundred Gods, one or none. You can believe that the universe was created by Gods/God or you can believe that it was eternal, without beginning. You can believe that you will be born again as humans, or animals or be one with in substance of nature. You can believe in one scripture or disbelieve in it. You can believe in heaven or hell or disbelieve in it. These are known as 'Panths', the paths, the ways, and if arrived in good faith, they are all acceptable in Hinduism. Generally Hindus do believe in many forms of one God, do believe in Vedas and Geeta, do believe in rebirth, and do belive in heaven and hell; but all that is not always essential. Aupmanyav 09:28, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Uh, that is like saying Judaism, Christianity and Islam are the same religion. If you are saying Hinduism is a family of religions sharing many commonolaties then I can agree with you there and even allow your call on Jainism and stretch it to include Buddhism, but then draw the line if you include Sikhism like some others I hear. Basic crux is when Shaivites say Shiva killed Vishnu and Vaishnavites say Vishnu defeated Shiva, this is schism deeper than Sunni and Shi'as and of the order of seperation of of the other Abrahamic religions (and history attests of an equally violent interaction) with their different prophets. Plus there is the distinction of those 'Panths' who ascribe to the caste system of Manu and then those who don't. If the cat has got stripes its a tiger and if it has a mane a lion and if it has a real short tail its a bob-cat they are the same but not really. The fact is today a Hindu is really who ever in India is not a Muslim/ Christian/ Buddhist and it is really a commonality of a historical experience and local traditions that has in the past 1000 years fused the disparate elements into a more cohesive conciousness. This more due to the fracturious human nature such that it always needs an "us" and a "them", when the chips are down the bloke over the ocean is part of us, when the chips are good even blood is a them.

It is nothing like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam being the same religion. Your premise is based perhaps on your unfamiliarity with Hinduism or unwillingness to accept Hinduism as one of the four major religions of the world. In Hinduism, a person not satisfied with available philosophies is free to search for his/her own answers to the riddle of life. All such answers if arrived in good faith are accepted. The famous RigVeda saying 'Eko sat, vipra bahudha vadanti' (truth is one, seers describe it variously) validates them all. That is why Hinduism includes all types of views, polytheism/monotheism/monism/atheism (Kanada's atomic Vaisheshika darshana). Draw your line, I would not insist on including Jainism, Buddhism and Sikhism in the Hindu fold, though we do have a soft corner for them. Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma spats are fun in Hinduism and we do not mind them. Caste system has hardly anything to do with the scriptures, which describe 'Varna', i.e., the various inclinations of people. Even a 'shoodra' could have a brahmin 'varna' or a brahmin may have a 'vaishya' varna. It is decided by the position of stars at the time of child's birth, something ordained by God. Caste is a group of people who are endogamous to safeguard their language, tradition, etc. The caste structure is under revision in the present times, all things change. Yes, we all share a commonality of culture and history not for the past 1000 years but perhaps 10000 years. India was well-populated even during the mesolithic times. 'Us' and 'them' is a universal feature, why blame just the Hindus. Aupmanyav 10:53, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't know you can have a hundered gods. Even the liberal Smartas recognize only six forms of God as different aspects of one Brahman. And Lord Krishna Himself said in the Gita that those who worship lesser deities are of imperfect understanding instead of worshiping Him alone. So reasonable people can differ.

Also if you are an atheist, that's may be Hindu in the broad sense in terms of culture, not religion. You may be following the Charvaka school which was known even at the time of the writing of Upanishads. Even in Lord Krishna's time, there were atheists. There's a specific verse, in the Gita which states that the demoniac think creation is a simply a creation of lust, instead of a supreme personal God. Gita:16:8: "According to them nothing is ultimately real in this world. It is Godless and without any moral basis. Being born of sexual union, what else but lust can be said to be its cause?"

Raj2004 11:11, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

The thirty of Aditi's brood are there, apart from the three main Gods and Goddesses (Brahmani and Saraswati may be considered two by some people), Ganesha, Hanuman, Bhairavas (Kshetrapalas), Gram devatas and devis, avataras of Shiva, avataras of Vishnu, avataras of Shakti, various Rishis who also are considered to be avataras of Gods and Sankara. Not everybody is a smarta. Tulsidas asked God to take up bow and arrow instead of the flute before he could bow and God had to do that. If you do not consider avataras separate, you may consider them as one. Advaitins would not even agree to the duality of God and men. I am not talking of demonic beings and their philosophies. Hinduism is a many splendoured thing. We should not belittle it by putting it in a straight jacket. Once you say 'Vipra bahudha vadanti', every thing is possible. Regards, Aupmanyav 18:05, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Tulsidas was a Smarta; for him, Rama was his Ishta-Deva and he recognized that Shiva and Vishnu are one; thus, I believe he said in his Ramayana version, that one who belittles Shiva cannot get Rama's grace. Who worships the thirty devas now? In my opinion, the fall of deva worship came when Krishna subdued Indra's pride when he lifted the Godhavarna mountain in order to show devotees that Sriman Narayana is supreme.

I agree with you that Advaitans do not agree to duality of God and man.

Just because many Hindus worship lesser deites, it does not mean they worship 100 gods. Christians venerate saints, which are lesser deities.

Even in Krishna's time, many people worship spirits but such worship was considered as tamasaic. He also said in the Gita that men who worship devas have limited fruits while those who worship Him does not return to this world. So the Gita itself supports a monotheistic standing. Smartas crafted their own alternative view.

Raj2004 00:57, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Tulsidas - 'one who belittles Shiva cannot get Rama's grace', that makes it belief in two. But when he was asked whether he worshipped 'Saguna' or 'Nirguna', he said he worshipped 'Nirguna' in mind and 'Saguna' in heart. Hinduism does not see any discripancy in this. Hinduism sees this as a gradation of worship, a school kid would worship 'Saguna', a doctoral student would worship 'Nirguna'. None is wrong. 'Vipra vadanti bahudha', till their reasons are good. Aupmanyav 07:17, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

How should we call India

In the introductory paragraph, first there was no mention of Bharat, secondly what was mentioned was Republic of India. Now what is the correct name? The constitution of India mentions it like this:

THE CONSTITUTION OF INDIA Preamble WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly ..

PART I THE UNION AND ITS TERRITORY 1. Name and territory of the Union.—(1) India, that is Bharat, shall be ..

This makes me think that instead of Republic of India, what should be mentioned is just 'India'. That it is a republic, or secular, or democratic, or socialist, are the qualities that the constitution makers looked forward to. I am sure this point has been discussed. Would anyone like to enlighten a new wikipedian?

India is supposed to be a secular republic.--Dangerous-Boy 21:05, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Of course, the Preamble describes India as Soverign, Socialist, Secular, Democratic, Republic. Aupmanyav 02:29, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

no references

There's no references for this article.....--Dangerous-Boy 08:21, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Who is a dravid?

Of course, Captain of the Indian Cricket team. All South Indians (Other than Brahmins?)? All North Indians (other than Brahmins)? The word is floated around to divide Hindus. This is what my initial search tells me: Padma Purana: Dakshin and Dravid are mentioned separately. (http://www.swaminarayanwales.org.uk/Articles/articledetails.asp?ArticleID=11) The Dravida, Brihacharana and Pericharana are all immigrants from Tamilnadu, and the speak Tamil. (q=cache:byJVeblm7ugJ:www.lifescapesmemoirs.net/chatterjee/religion/religion.pdf+dravid%2Bdesh+scriptures&hl=en&gl=in&ct=clnk&cd=39) The five Pancha Dravida tribes are Karnataka or Kannada, Andhra or Telugu, Dravida or Tamil, Maharashtra or Marathi, and Gurjara or Gujerati. (http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:NEeNBGRXT9sJ:www.hindunet.org/saraswati/civilization1.PDF+dravid%2Bdesh+scriptures&hl=en&gl=in&ct=clnk&cd=69) But were not Gurjaras supposed to be of scythian descent? And what about fair skins of many Gujaratis, Marathis and others also, even Tamils. What about Rajasthanis, UPians, Madhya Pradeshis, Biharis, Bengalis and Oriyas, Jharkhandis, Chattisgarhis; does one certify them as Aryans? Or skin colour and nose-breadth are the identifying characterstics? Are you sure that Himachalis and Uttaranchalis are Aryans? Kashmiris, of course, would make the purest Aryans??

Before anyone brands all Indians other than those who may be supposed to have Aryan blood as Dravidians in the way missionaries, muslims and Ambedkarites do it, let us get this straightened out. Aupmanyav 05:01, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Iqbal's 'Hindosatan Hamara'

Would some one (if they consider it appropriate) please include these two links about Iqbal's 'Hindosatan Hamara'. I do not know the process. http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/dec2005-daily/06-12-2005/oped/o2.htm, http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_3-11-2003_pg3_4. Aupmanyav 04:56, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

newyear

I have removed "and not very many people know what those rituals are" from the Death ritual paragraph as it is clearly a personal opinion.

The New year subsection need re-writing too.Bharatveer 10:24, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

B.G.Tilak opined that start of new year on Purnima or Amavasya relates to a calender change around 1,400 BCE when Vedanga Jyotishya was included. Some people retained the old system. Aupmanyav 14:26, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

ALL names of such "new year" s such as Vishu, Bihu etc should be mentiones . Bharatveer 14:40, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Nepal adopts a secular way

Nepal, the only Hindu Kingdom in the world, has now chosen to be a secular state by a unanimous vote in the parliament. Sorry, Hindutvavadis (though great news for christian missionaries). Aupmanyav 10:43, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I think this is a great development. Hindus in Nepal themselves wanted to get rid of that so called Hindu Kingdom. King in Nepal was considered as incarnation of Lord Vishnu which is something absurd and a great insult to belief of billion Hindus. His policies were against Hindu ideas, his son was a criminal. Secular nation status for Nepal is better than such dictators who use Hinduism for their personal agendas. Missionaries are already active in Nepal, just like Hindu denominations like ISKCON, Himalayan acadamy , Hindu Yoga wave etc. are active all over the world. Let Faiths interact peacefully, afterall Hindus don't want to become like Saudi Arabia. - Holy Ganga 11:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

AFAIK, wikipedia is not the place to discuss these things.Bharatveer 14:35, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

A correction was needed on the page because of the recent developments. Aupmanyav 09:28, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Origin of the word 'Hindu'

Kindly refer to the article on 'Hinduism' where the origins of the word 'Hindu' are explained succintly. I did not remove the last paragraph on the express wish of Cygnus-Hansa, otherwise that also is not necessary in my view. Then, look up in the description on this page, which is trash. What is the use of mentioning what the British did in 1930's, they left India 58 years ago. The point that Hindus are only those who go by Vedic traditions has been rejected by courts in India. In the latest judgement, the Kerala High Court desisted from defining a Hindu. Wikipedians contrubuting to 'Hindu-Hinduism' pages should realise that Hinduism accepts ALL philosophical conclusions that its adherents arrive at in good faith (Vipra bahudha vadanti) and rejects NONE, not even Tantra and Aghorapanth. Please do not foist your personal views as Hinduism. The information should be short and relevant. It should also be presented in an attractive form. Wiki-Hindu is a window for non-Hindus to Hinduism. Thanks. Aupmanyav 13:17, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

This article is biased towards upper caste hindus

This article has no mention of caste system which is a very integral part of it. This article presents a view maintained by only 15% of indians i.e. upper caste hindus. Casteism has created slavery system (dalits) causing sufferring to more than a billion people in thousands of years having no access to education , wealth & quality life. I think there has been no greater organised crime than this(caste system) by upper caste hindus who ensured luxury at the cost of poor low castes. Views of Dr. B.R.Ambedkar also required to added in hindu articles. The Hindu civilization is an exploitative system maintained by upper caste mafia which still operates in india thru RSS , VHP, BJP . Their aim is to ensure hindu supremacy. --Anirudh777 05:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

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