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This article was nominated for deletion on 11 July 2011 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep.

On 20 August 2012, it was proposed that this article be moved to Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy. The result of the discussion was moved.

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Long 2009

I should of course have checked Long before - but I thought I could at least trust Mikemikev to cherrypick papers that in fact pretends to support his conclusions. Long, however, definitely does not. In the conclusion to the update he writes: "Now, with more genetic data and more populations sampled, we are able to revisit the race problem with greater accuracy. Recently, my colleagues and I have tested the usefulness of race as a way to describe genetic differences among populations by contrasting the results of racial classification with those from generalized hierarchical models (Long et al. 2009). Race fails! Figure 3 diagrams the contrast for a data set consisting of complete DNA sequences for 64 autosomal loci (38,000 bp total). Four resequenced individuals represent each population. A summary of the major problems with using race are as follows. First, imposing the classically defined race structure on populations causes us to estimate less diversity for the species as a whole than does allowing all populations to link back to a common base population in an unrestricted hierarchy. Second, using the race pattern causes us to estimate excess diversity within non-sub-Saharan African populations, but it estimates a deficit of diversity within sub-Saharan African populations. Third, the supposition of races forces all continental populations to diverge equally from a single ancestral node, whereas an unrestricted hierarchy places the basal split within Africa. Fourth, in the classical race framework, European and Asian populations diverge from African populations independently, but the unrestricted hierarchy shows that European and East Asian populations link together before either links to sub-Saharan Africans." He in fact makes the opposite conclusion than what Mikemikev's sockpuppets are saying!·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:17, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

I have removed it though - since the paper doesn't mention or cite Edwards or mention the "fallacy". Its a good paper to include in Race and genetics though.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:18, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Biological anthropologist? They should have no authority on the matter.

I find it funny that those who are in support of this Lewontin's fallacy paper are real scientists like Dawkins and the author himself, Edwards, while those who are more in support of Lewontin's original (and misleading) idea are 'biological anthropologists' and social 'scientists'. I don't think social scientists should have any authority on a decidedly scientific topic and it is clear that their viewpoints are biased by their leftist leanings. RhymeNero (talk) 17:56, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Since you are clearly clueless, can I suggest you do a little research into what 'biological anthropologists' specialise in? Your viewpoint appears to be biased by sheer ignorance.... AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:22, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Biological anthropologists are the very same people who 'proved' certain people were racially inferior by comparing skull sizes. You really think the discipline has improved to any extent from those days? It's still an art and not a science. RhymeNero (talk) 03:30, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Let's leave the talk page to discussing the content. Dawkins is a zoologist. Brace is an anthropologist. The objection rings hollow. Professor marginalia (talk) 03:33, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

I can think of few more stupid arguments than this. What the hell do you think the science of biological anthropology specialises in? AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:38, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Is that a joke? Dawkins is an evolutionary biologist, hey look up his wikipedia article, it's on the first goddamn line. Biological anthropology is anthropology at its heart, which is indeed nowhere near a science. Furthermore, the Witherspoon et al paper derives no scientific knowledge on the matter. It is just further criticism for the sake of criticism, and in view of NPOV I believe it should be rightfully removed. RhymeNero (talk) 03:47, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Brace is an evolutionary anthropologist, and he has a wikipedia article that says so too. Witherspoon is published in peer reviewed Genetics journals.NCBI Again, objection rings hollow. Professor marginalia (talk) 03:58, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

RhymeNero, I have reported you for violating WP:3RR, and given your level of ignorance, I can see no point in discussing the matter further. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:59, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Looks like the PC brigade are doing a good job hushing up all those who dissent with the PC status quo. Since when is publishing in a Genetics journal make one a geneticist? It's mind blowing to think a person with only an arts knowledge of a scientific subject can make scientific statements when he lacks the scientific underpinnings to do so. It's like a history major trying to write a paper on particle physics. Once again I repeat that what the WItherspoon et all paper derives no scientific knowledge on the subject. Look at how he uses the word 'may'. That's not science, that's just suppositions. And you really want to compare the nobodies who came up with that paper with prestigious Cambridge researchers? That part of the article should be removed. RhymeNero (talk) 04:06, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

How many times do you have to be told to actually do a little research before spouting your ignorance? Biological anthropology is as much a science as any other branch of biology. Go away, study the subject, and then come back when you have an opinion worth considering. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:09, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Article title

The name of the scientific paper is Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy. WP:TITLE clearly says "Do not enclose titles in quotes: Article titles that are quotes (or song titles, etc.) are not enclosed in quotation marks." This includes the names of scientific papers, which in standard prose should be enclosed in quotation marks. This was the reasoning for the move last year at . The article title Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy or Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy (scientific paper) is still completely accurate and neutral and conforms to naming conventions. Reywas92 04:35, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

I remember proposing the latter title. I guess the quotes are meant to delegitimize the paper or something. Welcome to the Race and Intelligence topic area. Silverseren 04:48, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Reywas92, please read the 'Move/Merge' discussion above. And WP:NPOV trumps 'naming conventions' every time. If you insist on starting another discussion on the same subject, there is nothing to prevent you - but please do a little research first. The move to Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy recently instigated by you was clearly contentious, and should not have been done without requesting input from others. As for the quote marks, I've got no strong opinions either way - but it needs to be discussed first.

Silver Seren, you're hardly helping matters here. Yes, this is a heated subject, but we don't have to assume that everything anyone does has an ulterior motive. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:09, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Except there is no reason not to have it at Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy, which is the title of the paper and the common convention for other articles on academic papers and in line with WP:TITLE. And please don't tell me you're starting the NPOV thing again. The title of a paper cannot be POV, because POV is something that applies to inter-Misplaced Pages things. This was already pointed out in the AfD and the BLPN board. Silverseren 06:22, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

There are 'no reasons' other than the multiple ones already given in previous discussions (or maybe there are?). If you want to propose that the article be renamed, then do so - at which point I will ask that you explain your bizarre assertions regarding POV being confined to Misplaced Pages, and ask why you think that the outside world is devoid of such troublesome things as opinions... AndyTheGrump (talk) 09:56, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

I did read the discussion above and I do not see anywhere that shows a consensus for the use of quotation marks. That discussion was whether the article title should be the title of the paper, Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy, or a more generic Lewontin's argument, as well as whether there should be merges with related genetic articles. I do not "insist on starting another discussion on the same subject": I am not proposing any change in the content of this article's title or to revisit any of that debate. I only want to remove the quotation marks which are clearly against WP naming policy. If others agree, the parenthetical (scientfic paper) should also be removed because there is no disambiguation necessary and the normal name redirects here. There is absolutely no NPOV problem whatsoever if Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy is the actual, published name of the scientific paper. Reywas92 18:47, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

That is a matter of opinion. Other opinions differ, as should be obvious. If you want to propose a move, then do so. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:10, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved by Reywas92. --BDD (talk) 15:08, 28 August 2012 (UTC) (non-admin closure)

"Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy" (scientific paper) → Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy (scientific paper) – Per reasons already stated. Reywas92 13:20, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

• Comment. If the issue is non-compliance with WP:MOS, shouldn't it be "Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy (scientific paper)". The article title is, um, a title. The snag with that is that, per WP:ITALICTITLE it isn't technically possible to do this. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:49, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

• Why the qualifier? It's hardly an ambiguous title without, is it? Support a move to Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy. --BDD (talk) 21:43, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Why the qualifier? NPOV issues. See the talk page, the archives, the AfD discussions etc. If you want to propose a different move, please start a new move discussion. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:55, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Huh? This is about a journal article, so it should have the same title as the article, shouldn't it? I'm not aware of an issue where we change the name of a creative or scholarly work to adhere to NPOV (cf. WP:POVTITLE). In Category:Academic journal articles, I only see two other entries with such qualifiers, and one is a redirect. And I'm not going to propose a different move. Alternate titles are proposed in RMs all the time, and sometimes accepted. --BDD (talk) 22:01, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Have you read all the previous discussions? AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:32, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes. You're fond of asking that, aren't you? You seem to misunderstand WP:NPOV as it relates to article titles. It is completely neutral on our part to call this Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy, because that is the verbatim name of the scholarly article that is the subject of our article. Likewise, we can have an article called Hitler's Willing Executioners without endorsing any of the ideas expressed therein. The "(scientific paper)" qualifier would be necessary if another Misplaced Pages article had an identical or very similar title that could cause confusion, but that's not the case. --BDD (talk) 22:46, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

This suggestion is the most appropriate with Misplaced Pages Naming Conventions. Support for that move. The qualifier is not standard practice for academic articles in Misplaced Pages. SLawsonIII (talk) 00:11, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

• Support Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy, per WP:POVTITLE and the precedent set in Category:Academic journal articles. Silverseren 22:43, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
• Support a move to Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy. Current title is POV. Phlebas55 (talk) 10:53, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
• Support as Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy, no disambiguation needed.--Education does not equal common sense. 我不在乎 13:52, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Closing as move to Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy. Thanks, Reywas92 03:43, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Citations list useful for updating this article

You may find it helpful while reading or editing articles to look at a bibliography of Anthropology and Human Biology Citations, posted for the use of all Wikipedians who have occasion to edit articles on human genetics and related issues. I happen to have circulating access to a huge academic research library system at a university with an active research program in these issues (and to other academic libraries in the same large metropolitan area) and have been researching these issues sporadically since 1989. You are welcome to use these citations for your own research. You can help other Wikipedians by suggesting new sources through comments on that page. It will be extremely helpful for articles on human genetics to edit them according to the Misplaced Pages standards for reliable sources for medicine-related articles, as it is important to get these issues as well verified as possible. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 15:05, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Lack of NPOV in "Lewontin's argument" section

User Aprock reverted this edit of mine, claiming it is "Out of context," when it is completely in context and refers directly to Lewontin's quote above:

Lewontin argued "Since such racial classification is now seen to be of virtually no genetic or taxonomic significance either, no justification can be offered for its continuance."

Dawkins quotes exactly that sentence in his book and writes:

We can all happily agree that human racial classification is of no social value and is positively destructive of social and human relations. That is one reason why I object to ticking boxes on forms and why I object to positive discrimination in job selection. But that doesn’t mean that race is of “virtually no genetic or taxonomic significance.” This is Edwards’s point, and he reasons as follows. However small the racial partition of total variation may be, if such racial characteristics as there are highly correlated with other racial characteristics, they are by definition informative, and therefore of taxonomic significance.

To claim this is "out of context" is ridiculous and Asrock surely must have been joking. And there is a clear lack of neutrality in this section, saying that "This argument has been cited as evidence that racial categories are biologically meaningless" as if that is some universally accepted fact, when it is not. This in itself is weasel wording since there are clearly others who disagree with this conclusion, yet that is not mentioned at all. The wording must be changed into "This argument has been cited by some as evidence..." and then list the AAA as an example, then continue with "Others, such as Richard Dawkins disagree..."--Kobayashi245 (talk) 09:08, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I'll update the section according to the source sometime in the next week. aprock (talk) 14:45, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

That will be helpful. For other onlookers, I'll mention that it's a good idea to check how the one article by Edwards has been commented on in the kind of sources that Misplaced Pages identifies as reliable sources, especially major textbooks on human genetics and related disciplines. I have some of those sources at hand, to make sure that this article does indeed keep a neutral point of view that reflects mainstream, current scholarship. Other readers are welcome to look at the source list I keep in Misplaced Pages userspace for all of you to use. I invite your suggestions for other current secondary sources of good reputation on those topics to add to the source list. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 18:02, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

You are welcome to make a new section called "Criticism of Edwards' paper" at the bottom of the article and include any notable papers and citations there.--Kobayashi245 (talk) 18:19, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I can't speak for what other editors will do here, but what I observe in the actual professional literature is that most of Lewontin's main points are accepted and cited to his work as a correct description of what matters most about population stratification in human genetics. In other words, there hasn't been widespread agreement with the view of Edwards. If the article text reflects that, it really doesn't matter particularly what section organization the article has. The key thing is to make sure that this article and every one of the 6,929,832 articles on Misplaced Pages accurately reflect what reliable sources say--not just one article in one journal once upon a time, but mostly what the main reference books used by scholars in the discipline say. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 21:33, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Most of Lewontin's main points are well accepted and supported by consensus. This is correct. However the one statement by Lewontin that is highly controversial is the line:

"Since such racial classification is now seen to be of virtually no genetic or taxonomic significance either, no justification can be offered for its continuance."

This statement by Lewontin is highly controversial in the scientific fields. Edwards being one of the major opponents of this view. There is widespread agreement of Edwards' view. The high rate of acceptance of biological races and perceived usefulness in certain scientific fields is proof positive of it. Now there is also widespread agreement for Lewontin's view as well. Remember, widespread doesn't mean consensus and there is no scientific consensus at this point for either Lewontin's position nor Edwards' position. Which makes it all the more important to give proper weight for the varying positions in this article. BlackHades (talk) 01:58, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Sources are needed for the claim, "This statement by Lewontin is highly controversial in the scientific fields". — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 03:29, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

You already know the sources. Browse the section "Lewontin's argument and criticism" of Race and genetics again. The fact that there is no scientific consensus and constant disagreement in the scientific fields on this issue means it's a controversy. That's what the very definition of a controversy is. BlackHades (talk) 05:40, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Sources? Criticism is not the same thing as controversy or disagreement. Dawkins is quite clear that the mainstream view parallels Lewontin's. aprock (talk) 07:31, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Dawkins is quite clear that this point by Lewontin that race is biologically meaningless is incorrect. As well as any other geneticist/biologist that's not a complete farce. The mainstream view agrees with Edwards on this, not with Lewontin. The only "controversy" is that the term "race" is in dispute (semantics, really), with everybody preferring to use "populations" or "geographical groups," such as Cavalli-Sforza. But what's funny is that these "populations" are grouped in almost identical clusters as the traditional view on race prescribes.--Kobayashi245 (talk) 08:52, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

This is incorrect, both in what relates to Dawkins (who merely says that he agrees with Edwards that Race may be taxonomically significant in so far as putatively racial characteristics are highly correlate with eachother and with genetic makeup) and in what relates to the mainstream - you will not find many mainstream studies saying that Edwards argument vindicates race as a biological category, even if they agree that it is correct. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:26, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

"Lewontin’s argument is an important one, and separates studying the geographic distribution of genetic variation in humans from searching for a biological basis to racial classification. His finding has been reproduced in study after study up through the present: two random individuals from any one group (which could be a continent or even a local population) are almost as different as any two random individuals from the entire world (see proportion of variation within populations in Table 20.1 and )." Ramachandran, Sohini; Tang, Hua; Gutenkunst, Ryan N.; Bustamante, Carlos D. (2010). "Chapter 20: Genetics and Genomics of Human Population Structure". In Speicher, Michael R.; Antonarakis, Stylianos E.; Motulsky, Arno G. (eds.). Vogel and Motulsky's Human Genetics: Problems and Approaches (PDF). Heidelberg: Springer Scientific. doi:10.1007/978-3-540-37654-5. ISBN 978-3-540-37653-8. Retrieved 29 October 2013. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help); Unknown parameter |laydate= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laysummary= ignored (help) -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 13:57, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

"Earlier in this decade, Rick Kittles and I took an unusually critical look at FST (Long and Kittles 2003). We analyzed a unique data set composed of short tandem repeat (STR) allele frequencies for eight loci genotyped in both humans and chimpanzees (Deka et al. 1995). These data made it possible to see how FST played out when no one could dispute taxonomic and genetic significance. The answer surprised us. FST was pretty close to the canonical 0.15 shown so many times for human populations. In our analysis, FST was 0.12 for humans, but for humans and chimpanzees together, FST rose only to 0.18. Indeed, we found one locus, D13S122, where the size range of human and chimpanzee alleles hardly overlapped, yet FST equaled 0.15 (Figure 1)….

…Richard Lewontin’s dismissal of race may not have led to the wide popularity of FST in population biology, but it did galvanize anthropology. Lewontin confronted race by trying to show that classical racial groupings accounted for too little of the total diversity to be of any value. In retrospect, it is odd that Lewontin felt that 15% of variation among groups is small and even odder that others have concurred. Sewall Wright, the inventor of FST , believed the opposite. To Wright, FST = 0.05 or even less indicates considerable differences, and FST = 0.15 reflects moderately great differences (Wright 1951, 1978). Low values of FST reflect large gene frequency differences in replicate populations (Figure 2). In other words, these seemingly small values of FST permit allele frequencies to drift widely among populations. Unfortunately, Lewontin did not contest the larger issue, which is whether or not races are a good way to portray the pattern of gene frequency differences between populations." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20504197

Do you really want to play this game of each of us posting and citing a study that either sides with one or the other?--Kobayashi245 (talk) 19:03, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

What "side" does Long 2009 (quoted above) support? — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 20:28, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

He makes it clear that Lewontin's (and others') conclusion based on the low FST he calculated and upon which he based his (their) entire fallacious argument that genetic differences between races are biologically meaningless is exactly that: a fallacy. Lewontin's FST was "only" 0.15 between human races and Long's was "only" 0.12, but the FST between humans and chimpanzees is "only" 0.18. Everything over 0.05 indicates considerable differences according to the inventor of FST. Using Lewontin's fallacious argument: there is more variation within humans and chimpanzees than between them, therefore both humans and chimpanzees are social constructs.

By the way, the user Aprock has already been involved in this dispute at the WP:DRN a few months ago in the Race and genetics article where he was repeatedly deleting this very same Dawkins reference: I would advise you to tread carefully not to go down that path again.--Kobayashi245 (talk) 21:12, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

An interesting interpretation to be sure, considering what the source actually says next, "Now, with more genetic data and more populations sampled, we are able to revisit the race problem with greater accuracy. Recently, my colleagues and I have tested the usefulness of race as a way to describe genetic differences among populations by contrasting the results of racial classification with those from generalized hierarchical models (Long et al. 2009). Race fails!" — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 02:21, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Aprock is an editor of impeccable integrity. (I generally agree with him even when he criticizes my edits.) Anyway, the key issue here is not a he-said, she-said argument based on just a few primary research studies, but what the scholars in the related disciplines distill as the current scholarly consensus when they write professional handbooks, textbooks, and other reliable sources. Anyone who wants to check the current secondary sources is welcome to look at the Anthropology and Human Biology Citations source list. (Anyone who desires to suggest additions to that source list is welcome to do that too.) In general, what I see in the sources is that Lewontin has prevailed over Edwards in pointing to the issue that has greater clinical and practical significance for human populations. His finding was a surprise, but it is well replicated, and widely accepted as an important fact. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 16:09, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

@ArtifexMayhem & WeijiBaikeBianji (others can skip to Proposal 1):

Race "fails" in their other 2009 study (Human DNA Sequences: More Variation and Less Race, Long et al. (2009)) that they are referencing because they show that (as per the title) there is human variation beyond the racial level (not surprising, since most of the genome has nothing to do with race). Their study does not refute at all the structure analysis of racial groups like those of Edwards or Rosenberg. They actually affirm those studies, but basically because they don't like the results, which they think are "paradoxical" to their conclusions, they invent an entirely different model where Edwards' and Rosenberg's results fit in the way they like: "We must now judge taxonomic significance on a different basis than the component of diversity between populations." Which is just nonsensical.

Rosenberg and colleagues analyzed 377 short tandem repeat (STR) DNA loci in a sample of 1,052 people (Rosenberg et al., 2002). These individuals came from 52 populations with locations throughout the world. This study found that the component of allelic diversity between major geographic regions accounted for only 4.3% of the total. However, the study's findings present us with a paradox because it was possible to use these genotypes to classify individuals back to their regional populations. Others have argued that Rosenberg and colleagues should have measured STR diversity using a different statistic, and offer that their favored statistic yields a higher component of diversity between major geographic regions, that is, 9.2% (Excoffier and Hamilton, 2003). However, neither 4.3% nor 9.2% is very different from Lewontin's 6.3%, and the high classification success in Rosenberg's study is counter intuitive in comparison with all such measures of diversity. We must now judge taxonomic significance on a different basis than the component of diversity between populations.

Some biologists define races based purely on correct assignment of individuals to groups. The best known version of this approach is the seventy-five percent correct classification rule (Amadon, 1949; Mayr, 1969). Edwards has explained how accurate classification will be achieved when multiple polymorphic loci are considered (Edwards, 2003), and we see empirically that there are applications to human data that satisfy the seventy-five percent criterion (Rosenberg et al., 2002; Bamshad et al., 2003).

All that said, this has nothing to do with the original topic, which was about changing the biased and non-neutral wording in the mentioned section. WeijiBaikeBianji decided to for whatever reason cite part of a paper that is merely repeating Lewontin's fallacy, namely that of the calculated FST for a single loci upon which he based his conclusion. That this is a fallacy has been demonstrated by Edwards who showed that multiple loci must be used, and Weiji's source affirms Edwards' findings in the next page:

While it is an undeniable mathematical fact that the amount of genetic variation observed within groups is much larger than the differences among groups, this does not mean that genetic data do not contain discernable information regarding genetic ancestry. In fact, we will see that minute differences in allele frequencies across loci when compounded across the whole of the genome actually contain a great deal of information regarding ancestry. Given current technology, for example, it is feasible to accurately identify individuals from populations that differ by as little as 1% in FST if enough markers are genotyped. (See discussion below for a detailed treatment of the subject.) It is also important to note that when one looks at correlations in allelic variation across loci, self-identified populations and populations inferred for human subjects using genetic data correspond closely .

It is obvious that race doesn't "make sense" when one doesn't use enough markers, this is identical to having a single jigsaw puzzle and trying to see the bigger picture. You can't. But once you have enough puzzles, the picture is clear, and so is race. There is not a single biologist in this world who will deny this fact, that when enough markers are genotyped, individuals can be classified into geographical groups, and this with an almost 100% accuracy, not merely the 75% low limit. The only dispute is whether one should call those groups a "race" or something else, which is entirely semantics. In response to Weiji's random citation, I cited a random study which shows that Lewontin's fallacious use of low FST to claim that race is biologically insignificant is exactly that: a fallacy. "Only" 0.12 FST in humans, "only" 0.18 FST between humans and chimpanzees, with the inventor of FST claiming anything over 0.05 FST indicates "considerable differences." There is no interpretation needed for the above, the numbers speak for themselves. And I will not continue this offtopic debate no more, but with what I initially proposed, namely changing the wording of the section.

So, Proposal 1:

Change this:

This argument has been cited as evidence that racial categories are biologically meaningless, and that behavioral differences between groups cannot have any genetic underpinnings. One example being the "Statement on 'Race'" published by the American Anthropological Association in 1998 which rejected the existence of races as unambiguous, clearly demarcated, biologically distinct groups.

To this (changes only emphasized in bold; not part of the actual edit):

This argument has been cited by some as evidence that racial categories are biologically meaningless, and that behavioral differences between groups cannot have any genetic underpinnings. One example being the "Statement on 'Race'" published by the American Anthropological Association in 1998 which rejected the existence of races as unambiguous, clearly demarcated, biologically distinct groups. Others, such as Richard Dawkins, have disagreed with Lewontin's assertion that racial categories are biologically meaningless.

The reason being that the current sentence claims this argument has been cited by everyone as evidence, and then citing the AAA as an example. In reality, this argument has not been cited by everyone as evidence, and there is a number of people in the scientific community who are in no way a minority or WP:FRINGE who disagree with the argument. One example is Richard Dawkins, a WP:V source, and thus the sentence must be changed to include both viewpoints, namely that some use this argument as evidence, one example being the AAA, and others don't, one example Richard Dawkins. Omitting this in fact goes against WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. The article can only be improved and the neutrality issue resolved by mentioning both viewpoints. User Aprock contested that the claim by Dawkins is "out of context" which I have showed it is not: Dawkins cites exactly the same quote of Lewontin that is mentioned in the article and upon which the disputed text is based on, and he arguments directly against that quote. Absolutely nothing is "out of context," and any interpretation of the Dawkins' book or text that it is or that "Dawkins largely agrees with Lewontin" is WP:OR and does not constitute a valid argument. BlackHades said that Dawkins needs not be mentioned under "Lewontin's argument" because he is already mentioned in "Edwards' critique," but said that the sentence is problematic, which is 100% correct. One way to fix this issue is like I propose, include Dawkins into the sentence, so that both viewpoints are expressed, the other is making an entirely new sentence, by excluding any examples, which means drop both AAA and Dawkins. It's logical which one is simpler, but if you insist, we can make a new neutral sentence together.

Proposal 2:

In "Edwards' critique" section, change this:

Evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins agreed with Edwards' view and summarized it as "However small the racial partition of the total variation may be, if such racial characteristics as there are highly correlate with other racial characteristics, they are by definition informative, and therefore of taxonomic significance."

To this (changes only emphasized in bold; not part of the actual edit):

Evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins agreed with Edwards' view and summarized it as "However small the racial partition of the total variation may be, if such racial characteristics as there are highly correlate with other racial characteristics, they are by definition informative, and therefore of taxonomic significance." Dawkins also wrote of Lewontin that he is "known for the strength of his political convictions and his weakness for dragging them into science at every possible opportunity."

The reason being that it is a relevant critique of Lewontin and how his political convictions might have influenced his work. If there is big opposition to this, along the lines of "this is a critique of Lewontin, not Edwards," fine, I will then include this quote in the "ref name=Dawkins" template, where it will be relevant in Proposal 1, unless both AAA and Dawkins examples are dropped:

R. C. Lewontin is an equally distinguished Cambridge (Mass.) geneticist, known for the strength of his political convictions and his weakness for dragging them into science at every possible opportunity. Lewontin's view of race has become near-universal orthodoxy in scientific circles. We can all happily agree that human racial classification is of no social value and is positively destructive of social and human relations. That is one reason why I object to ticking boxes on forms and why I object to positive discrimination in job selection. But that doesn't mean that race is of "virtually no genetic or taxonomic significance." This is Edwards's point, and he reasons as follows. However small the racial partition of total variation may be, if such racial characteristics as there are highly correlated with other racial characteristics, they are by definition informative, and therefore of taxonomic significance.

Proposal 3:

Change this:

Biological anthropologists such as Jonathan Marks and philosophers Jonathan Kaplan and Rasmus Winther have argued that while Edwards's argument is correct it does not invalidate Lewontin's original argument, because racial groups being genetically distinct on average does not mean that racial groups are the most basic biological divisions of the world's population. Nor does it mean that races are not social constructs as is the prevailing view among anthropologists and social scientists, because the particular genetic differences that correspond to races only become salient when racial categories take on social importance. According to this view Edwards and Lewontin are therefore both correct.

Similarly, Marks agrees with Edwards

To this (changes only emphasized in bold; not part of the actual edit):

Philosophers Jonathan Kaplan and Rasmus Winther have argued that while Edwards's argument is correct it does not invalidate Lewontin's original argument, because racial groups being genetically distinct on average does not mean that racial groups are the most basic biological divisions of the world's population. Nor does it mean that races are not social constructs as is the prevailing view among anthropologists and social scientists, because the particular genetic differences that correspond to races only become salient when racial categories take on social importance. From this sociological perspective, Edwards and Lewontin are therefore both correct.

Similarly, biological anthropologist Jonathan Marks agrees with Edwards

The reason being that the current text presents the opinions of two philosophers who have argued that both Lewontin and Edwards are correct entirely from a philosophical/sociological point of view together with an anthropologist who has made no such claim in the source provided, which is clearly an attempt to make the opinions of two philosophers look more scientific by referencing an anthropologist before them. This is a violation of Misplaced Pages's guideline of manual of style's words to watch, as it is a form of WP:WEASEL. Therefore, Jonathan Marks must be mentioned in the next paragraph, the one already discussing his paper, not in the paragraph discussing an opinion of two philosophers. Likewise, the wording of "According to this view" has to be expanded on and explained that this is merely a philosophical/sociological opinion/perspective, not a scientific fact. Although, a better proposal would be entirely dropping the opinions of two philosophers, which are entirely irrelevant. It's no different than a linguist with no mathematical background giving his opinion on the theory of relativity.

Present your argumentative objections for each proposal, preferably in a point-by-point basis, by which I mean starting with Proposal 1 and concluding with Proposal 3. Proposal 1 and 3 are clear violations of Misplaced Pages's policies, specifically WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE and go against the guidelines, specifically WP:W2W, so simply saying there is "no consensus" for the change (there are some editors who think this is a real argument) and not giving any valid arguments is irrelevant (WP:DRNC) and is a sign that the editor simply WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT, thus if there will be no valid objections, I will boldly edit my proposal/s that have no argumentative objections.--Kobayashi245 (talk) 11:36, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Forgot to address this by WeijiBaikeBianji: "but what the scholars in the related disciplines distill as the current scholarly consensus when they write professional handbooks, textbooks, and other reliable sources. In general, what I see in the sources is that Lewontin has prevailed over Edwards in pointing to the issue that has greater clinical and practical significance for human populations." There is no "scholarly consensus" and you should stop pretending there is. See the surveys at https://en.wikipedia.org/Race_%28human_classification%29#Current_views_across_disciplines. Even if 100% of American researchers agreed with Lewontin (which is not even remotely true), there is still China and Russia where the concept of race is very much regarded as fact, and the USA is no authority on this matter, so I suggest you just drop this and accept that there is no consensus, because there isn't. --Kobayashi245 (talk) 13:10, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

WeijiBaikeBianji is correct, we must go with what reliable sources have to say on the matter. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 13:27, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Did you read what I linked to? There is no consensus among the reliable sources WHATSOEVER. Now stop with this silly denying game and address my proposals please.--Kobayashi245 (talk) 19:31, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

It is disingenious to keep bringing up the fact that survey's show that Russian and Chinese researchers hold on to a belief in race. Untill such a time that they begin producing literature that engages with the global body of literature on race and refute the arguments of those scholars who have established the consensus that the concept has no vaild basis in genetic diversity then they do not exist for scientific purposes. We also don't use the fact that apparently some north Korean scientists believe in Unicorns to argue that there is scientific disagreement about their existence. Scholars may believe a lot of weid things, but it is the status in the literature and not in their private beliefs that determine what is a mainstream view.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:13, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I mentioned Russia and China just as an unnecessary example, because the surveys show that even among US researchers, there is clearly no consensus, so let's all stop pretending there is. Also, it would be funny if ru.wikipedia, zh.wikipedia and en.wikipedia all had opposing views on race, stemming from the fact that Russian and Chinese wikipedians probably use their native scientific sources to back up their facts. So no, it is not disingenuous at all, but what is disingenuous is claiming there is clear consensus, when there is not.--Kobayashi245 (talk) 20:28, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

The fallacy that there is "consensus that the concept has no valid basis" needs to stop. It is disingenuous to keep repeating this fallacy. Here's what high quality secondary sources actually has to say on this issue:

"It would appear that two conclusions strongly emerge from research on the status of the race concept in biological anthropology: there is still no consensus on the race concept and there are significant national/regional differences in anthropologists’ attitudes towards ‘race’...Research shows that there is as yet no consensus on the status of the concept among biological anthropologists."

Štrkalj, Goran. "The status of the race concept in contemporary biological anthropology: A review." Anthropologist 9.1 (2007): 73-78.

It is not just Russian or Chinese researchers that accepts the concept of biological races. The acceptance of biological races and its perceived usefulness is the clear majority in certain scientific fields in the US. Particularly in scientific fields related to forensic anthropology, disease susceptibility, drug metabolism. Lieberman's poll showed a clear majority of biologists accepted the concept of biological races. In the fields of physical and cultural anthropologists, which are the fields that reject the race concept more so than any other scientific field, a full quarter of them still accept the race concept. So even among physical and cultural anthropologists there is no consensus, let alone all the other scientific fields where the concept is readily much more accepted. BlackHades (talk) 21:21, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Goran Strkalj is not among the most well regarded sources on this issue. Try finding some actual mainstream sources and see what they say instead of just parading the same tired "race realist" sources over and over. Furthermore you are misrepresenting Strakalj's conclusion (just as other "race realists" have tended to do) he does not argue that the lack of consensus is due toactual scientific disagreements, but rather due to lack of access to the latest literature in some parts of the world. The usefulness of Race is the majority view in certain fields in the US that is correct, but those happen to be applied fields that depend on the practical value of the concept and are relatively unconcerned with the theoretical problems that have lead a majority of scholars in those fields that specialize in human variation and the race concept. The value of the concept as a heuristic to applied fields does not support the value of the concept which has been rejected on theoretical grounds anymore than the fact that Newtonian physics is adequate for most practical purposes is a valid argument against quantum physics or relativity. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:36, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

A meta analysis on the overview of the race concept in the scientific field that's been peer reviewed and published in the journal Anthropologist is not an authoritative or mainstream source? Seriously? Would you prefer a meta analysis by Lieberman instead? (Bold emphasis mine)

Lieberman, Leonard, et al. "The race concept in six regions: variation without consensus." Collegium antropologicum 28.2 (2004): 907-921.

You're not being accurate with Strakalj's conclusions either. He lists many reasons for differences in the acceptance rate of the concept of biological races. Including reasons linked to social factors rather than scientific ones that exist in the US. However, the reasons why are irrelevant to the earlier point. There is no scientific consensus on the race concept. Whatever the reasons why this is doesn't change this particular fact one bit. BlackHades (talk) 22:43, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Maunus, plenty of reliable mainstream sources are posted in the other Misplaced Pages article I linked to. Please stop this ridiculous and childish nonsense. You yourself just accepted that the view that race is biologically significant, and even a majority view in certain fields, especially by geneticists and biologists which matter the most, not physical or cultural anthropologists, the latter of which are even irrelevant. By the way, your analogy is wrong, it is those who deny the biological significance of race that are Newtonian physicists, and the biologists and geneticists who are well aware of the existence of race who are quantum physicists. So, for the last time, let's stop these silly games: there is no consensus.--Kobayashi245 (talk) 22:17, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

No, it is not the majority view among geneticists and biologists, but among physicians and forensic anthropologists both of whom matter very little. Try to show some mainstream textbooks in genetics or biology. They generally do not suggest that the structure of human variation supports the concept of biological races, although often they do mention that it is controversial + then they usually suggest that it is better to talk about ancestry and about populations. My analogy is not wrong, it is in fact the point that Strkalj is making.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:23, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Maunus, please go read the section of the article I linked to. I really do not want to clog this talk even more with quotations that prove you wrong. So let's conclude this: there is no consensus. Yes or no?--Kobayashi245 (talk) 22:26, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

There is no consensus across disciplines, no. There is a very solid consensus in physical anthropology, which happens to be the discipline that has the largest amount of expertise on this topic. There is no consensus in genetics and biology. In forensics and medicine there is a majority who considers it to be a useful concept.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:47, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Even in physical anthropology. It is true that there is a very strong majority in physical anthropology that reject the concept of biological races. However it is still not a consensus even in this field. Lieberman showed a quarter of physical anthropologists in the US accepted the race concept. This rate is even higher everywhere else in the world. But even if we used just the US figure, 25% is a minority but it is a solid minority. So while there is a very strong majority in physical anthropology that reject the concept of biological races, it is definitely not a consensus. BlackHades (talk) 22:58, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Three quarters is of course a consensus. Also the survey of opinions does not matter what matters is the consensus in the literature, because that shows the state of the science. There is not a quarter of articles on published on race in physical anthropology that considers race to be a valid biological category. The quarter of American physical anthrpologists who reputedly hold this view are not a part of the academic dialogue, just like the Russian and Chinese colleagues aren't. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:10, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes what matters is the literature and high quality secondary sources, which says that there is NO CONSENSUS in physical anthropology on the concept of race. We go by what high quality reliable secondary sources say and not by doing our own synthesis of the literature. BlackHades (talk) 07:29, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Okay, then we will change the sentence to say that race is a biologically meaningless concept according to physical and cultural anthropologists, but then list the other fields that claim otherwise.--Kobayashi245 (talk) 23:23, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

The only two fields where there is a substantial agreement that race is useful (not necessarily because it is biologically valid) are medicine and forensic anthropology.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:26, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

False, see the "other fields" section. 16% of biologists disagree with race. Of course you realize that once we change the sentence to list all these fields, this just opens the door to include all these surveys that show otherwise, which I will definitely include. So, again, do we change the sentence to include all fields and their positions, or do we simply change the sentence to "some" and then list the AAA as one example, and then Dawkins as the other?--Kobayashi245 (talk) 23:37, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I would like to see your source for that figure. I dont think AAA vs. Dawkins is a very informative way of posing the disagreement. We could probably make a separate article on the surveys. But as I say Surveys are not a good way of building the weighting in a wikipedia article, it shoud be built on the consensus in the literature. If you can show some review articles by respected scholars in esteemed journals, or some well regarded textbooks that show support for race then that would be a better measure.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:40, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Ah its the 1985 poll. That certainly doesn't support any claim about consensus 30 years later.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:42, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Without playing your silly game no more, I'll just skip to the point and suggest a new sentence:

"This argument has been cited by most American physical and cultural anthropologists as evidence that racial categories are biologically meaningless, and that behavioral differences between groups cannot have any genetic underpinnings. Physical and cultural anthropologists in other countries, most notably Russia and China are mostly of the opposite opinion, and believe racial categories are biologically meaningful. Likewise, the majority of forensic anthropologists, biologists and developmental psychologists believe race is biologically meaningful."--Kobayashi245 (talk) 00:00, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, for the reasons stated above that is not a useful wording. The dated opinion surveys are not relevant for a general overview of the status of race, and neither are the opinions of Russian and Chinese anthropologists in surveys. These details can be provided with sufficient context in the body of the article in a dedicated section. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:28, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Unless you have newer statistics, those still apply and are valid, unless there is some scientific timelimit I'm not aware of, when something becomes irrelevant? Is it 5 years, or 10, 15...? You can always neutralize the sentence by adding "according to the 1985 survey..." And it is very much relevant to mention that Russian and Chinese physical anthropologists largely disagree with the opinions of American and Canadian anthropologists, because America is not the center of the world, and neither is it the authority on race. The original (current) sentence lacks neutrality and is giving all the weight on the side of American anthropologists, this even though every single source explicitly says there is no consensus. The neutrality issue will be solved once both opinions are expressed. I did my best and wrote two (what I believe) are neutral texts to replace the current one, but you disagree with both of them. So you propose one, I'm going to bed, and I'll give my opinion tomorrow.--Kobayashi245 (talk) 00:55, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

A thirty years old opinion poll has historical value at best. Just like we dont use 1984 polls to claim that 58% of Americans prefer Ronald Reagan for president. All studies have shown decreasing acceptance of race since the mid 60s. Opinion polls of scientists are not relevant for a general description of a topic, published sources reviewing the status of the field are.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:09, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

We have various new polls for politics on an almost yearly basis. Do you have a new poll regrading this? No. The use of race in medical and genetic studies has actually increased since the 70s. According to the decreasing trend among anthropological studies, it would be extremely unlikely, impossible even, that a rejection of only 16% among biologists would have increased to a majority, or even near-majority position. I can cite you a WP:RS forensic anthropology book from 2007 which explicitly states that "due to recent advances in biology, such low scepticism among biologists is well warranted." So let's not go there, and stop pretending the view on race among biologists has changed similarly as it has with anthropologists, because it hasn't. Polls are WP:RS, and polls published by reputable scientific journals that reflect the positions among academics are very much so. The very fact that there is disagreement among American and Russian and Chinese anthropologists is an important fact from a RS that I will not let you ignore, if you decide to change the text in such a manner. So let's stop horsing around with such nonsense, and get to changing the sentence so it is neutral. As I said, I already wrote two and you disagreed with them. You write one and I'll give my opinion. I'd also like to hear BlackHades' proposal regarding how the sentence should be changed.--Kobayashi245 (talk) 10:32, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I reiterate a 1985 opinion poll is only an RS about opinions in 1985. Opinions in 1985 are relevant for historical information, but can not in any way be assumed to have any relation to the current state - and making it appear as if it does is intellectual fraud. The difference between Western and Russian/Chinese scientist well documented and relevant when it is described in its full context (which shows that it is not a scientific disagreement but simply an adherence to outdated positions in countries with weak connections to current research) - but it is not relevant to this article which is about Edwards' paper. We have no information about whether Riussians and Chinese are more in agreement with Edwards or Lewontin - that would require a new survey which as you point out we dont have currently. The difference between the west and china/russia is already mentioned in the article in which it is relevant, namely the one on race. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:23, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

As I said, I have a 2007 source that affirms the data, saying that due to recent advances in biology, such a high acceptance of race among biologists is well warranted. And please do not talk about intellectual fraud. The 1985 opinions were still valid in 1992 when the study came out, and unless you have newer data, still are. The difference between USA and Russian/Chinese researchers is not due to access to outdated information, that's just your opinion. If we change the text to say that race is considered biologically meaningless by some physical anthropologists, we will then continue by saying that it is considered biologically significant by biologists, forensic anthropologists and in race-based medicine. End of discussion.--Kobayashi245 (talk) 18:11, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Dawkins, mainstream, and taxonomy

Above we have a discussion of how to treat Dawkins' views of Lewonin's views, within which is an extended discussion of the validity of race. Strangely, Dawkins' himself, in the same source that editors are referencing, clearly states that Lewontin's view is the mainstream one. It seems difficult to argue both sides here. Pick one:

• Dawkins' is a reliable source here and 1) race is "taxonomically" significant and 2) Lewontin's view is mainstream, or:
• Dawkins' is not a reliable source and shouldn't be included.

Which is it? Do we use Dawkins', who clearly states the mainstream view, or not? aprock (talk) 01:54, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Refer back to the discussion in the RfC in Race and genetics. There's already been editor consensus that Dawkins is a reliable source and should be included in regards to Lewontin in the previous RfC. Why are you again making a suggestion to exclude Dawkins? Why are you trying to rehash the exact same argument that has already been settled through RfC? Let it go. BlackHades (talk) 07:14, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Actually, your first option seems doable to me, but then it would have to be expanded to say that is it mainstream among physical and cultural anthropologists, but not among biologists, forensic anthropologists and "race-based medical academics" (or whatever the term is), where the view that race is significant is the majority. Also, that it is not mainstream among Russian and Chinese physical anthropologists, indicating a lack of consensus.--Kobayashi245 (talk) 10:36, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Dawkins doesn't qualify that it is only mainstream among some groups, so making it appear as if he said so would be falsifying his statement. Blackhades: You are wrong it is not the same argument, Aprock is making the correct claim which was also the result of the RfC that the entire context of Dawkins statement should be included - which logically also includes his identification of the mainstream.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:16, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

You are being incredibly dishonest by arguing it is not only mainstream among some groups. IT IS! Only among cultural and physical anthropologists, everywhere else it is not. So stop beating around the bush already and present your version of the sentence.--Kobayashi245 (talk) 18:11, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

IF you know for a fact that there is a consensus in favor of biological race in all other disciplines then you will have to show some bloody sources that support that ludicruous claim - some that arent 30 years old. Show me some biology and genetics textbooks that support race, show me some review articles written by respected scientists that argue that race is best understood as a biological concept. Untill you can do that then do me a favor and stop wasting our time, and stop accusing me of intellectual dishonesty when you clearly havent got a clue about what is actually going on in these branches of science, but are just rattling of the cavalcade of surces you can find on Metapedia, Stormfront and similar fora.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:24, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't object to making the text of Dawkins in this article similar to the one that already exists in Race and genetics. I would even welcome it. And if that's all Aprock was suggesting, there would be absolutely no issue here. The problem was that Aprock hinted/suggested that we re-discuss whether Dawkins is a reliable source and whether he should be included. An issue already previously resolved by RfC. BlackHades (talk) 21:52, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Another possibility is that a) Dawkins is correct that Lewontin's view is correct, widely accepted, and mainstream, and b) there are scientists who have made deeper study of the particular issue related to human populations than Dawkins has and who even more vehemently endorse Lewontin's view as correct as against Edwards's view. Which is the tenor of most of the better sources, across several related disciplines. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 21:14, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

More insults and baseless accusations from Maunus... And a ridiculous "possibility" raised by WeijiBaikeBianji.

Sources which acknowledge there is no worldly consensus on race and that the race concept is fully supported in China (which Maunus outright lied about it being because they have outdated information or some such crap, or maybe he simply misread it. Try reading the sources again, Maunus.):

• On the Concept of Race in Chinese Biological Anthropology: Alive and Well. Author(s): Qian Wang, Goran Štrkalj, Li Sun, 2003
• The race concept in six regions: variation without consensus. Author(s): Liberman et al., 2004
• The Status of the Race Concept in Contemporary Biological Anthropology: A Review. Author: Goran Štrkalj, 2007
• Forensic Anthropology: 2000 to 2010. Author(s): Sue Black, Eilidh Ferguson, 2011, quote: "while scientists in China fully supported race as a concept and integrated race into their research, acknowledging that there was still no real consensus with regard to the race debate"

Here are more studies supporting the race concept:

• Genetic Structure of Human Populations. Author(s): Rosenberg, Feldman, et al., 2002
• Here one of the scientists involved with the study says it clear that their usage of "populations" or "ancestry" instead of race is mere semantics (because I know you race deniers like to claim those are not the same), and that their study basically confirmed the conception of human races: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/20/us/gene-study-identifies-5-main-human-populations-linking-them-to-geography.html
• Categorization of humans in biomedical research: genes, race and disease. Author(s): Risch, Burchard, Ziv, Tang, 2002
• The importance of race and ethnic background in biomedical research and clinical practice. Author(s): Burchard, Risch, Ziv, Tang, et al., 2003
• Human Population Genetic Structure and Inference of Group Membership. Author(s): Bamshad et al., 2003
• Genetic Structure, Self-Identified Race/Ethnicity, and Confounding in Case-Control Association Studies. Author(s): Tang, Risch, et al., 2005
• Latino Populations: A Unique Opportunity for the Study of Race, Genetics, and Social Environment in Epidemiological Research. Author(s): Burchard, Risch, Kittles, et al., 2005
• Race: a social destruction of a biological concept. Author: Neven Sesardić, 2010

The 2004 book by emeritus professor of anthropology Vincent M. Sarich, a "fringe lunatic" in the eyes of race-denying Lewontian ignoramuses:

• Race: The Reality of Human Difference

Here's one where the majority of anatomists in South Africa support the race concept:

• Anatomists’ attitudes towards the concept of race. Author(s): Goran Štrkalj et al., 2004

Here's one for medicine:

• Pharmacogenetics and geographical ancestry: implications for drug development and global health. Author(s): Daar, Singer, 2005

Here's one which makes it clear race is biologically significant:

• What we do and don't know about 'race', 'ethnicity', genetics and health at the dawn of the genome era. Author: Collins, 2004

Here's another one who affirms biological significance (but he is a race denier who plays the semantics game about how race has special social implications, and that one should instead use "populations" or "ancestry," blah, blah, blah...):

• Is Race Still Socially Constructed? The Recent Controversy over Race and Medical Genetics. Author: John Hartigan Jr., 2008

Here a forensic anthropologists argues that the race concept is valid and that there is obvious political bias and suppression involved by the race deniers:

• http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/does-race-exist.html

Here's one scientist that says that: "The idea that human races are only social constructs has been the consensus for at least 30 years." Referring to the Lewontian ignoramuses, of course. But then continues with: "Beneath the jargon, cautious phrases and academic courtesies, one thing was clear: the consensus about social constructs was unraveling. Some even argued that, looked at the right way, genetic data show that races clearly do exist." (Which is what the Lewontian ignoramuses always fail to acknowledge, or since they can't refute it, address it by playing the semantics game: "populations/ancestry, not race!") Referring to the studies by Risch, Tang, Ziv, et al.:

• http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/14/opinion/14leroi.html

So cut the crap Maunus and others, there is clearly no worldly scientific consensus, especially with China, and China is a developed country with over a billion people, not some random "sh*thole" like North Korea that one can simply ignore.

Now, enough beating around the bush, let's see some ideas for changing the WP:NPOV-violating sentence. Who will start? Me again? BlackHades? Maunus?--Kobayashi245 (talk) 13:03, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

There is a whole website full of responses by scientists to the opinion essay by Leroi.Is Race Real? -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 01:12, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

"Social science research council". Am I supposed to take what "social 'scientists'" say about race serious?--Kobayashi245 (talk) 13:43, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Some more sources, copied from Sesardić (2010):

"For instance, a study that covered 17 populations over the world and that relied on 34 different measurements managed to assign 98% of the specimens to their correct major racial group (Brues 1990, 6). Another more recent study had a success rate of 80% in distinguishing between American Whites and Blacks, although it used just two variables. With seven variables, however, it reached the reliability of 95%, and with 19 variables the probability of correct classification rose to 97% (Ousley et al.2009). Also, estimating generally the reliability of attributing a given data point to one of the five racial categories, another team of experts calculated that under some realistic conditions it is sufficient to use as few as 13 characteristics to have the posterior probability of the correct classification attain the value of 99% (Konigsberg et al.2009)."

And on the semantics game of populations=/=races:

"When in the 1960s I started working on the problem of reconstructing the course of human evolution from data on the frequencies of blood-group genes my colleague Luca Cavalli-Sforza and I sometimes unconsciously used the word ‘race’ interchangeably with ‘population’ in our publications. In one popular account, I wrote naturally of ‘the present races of man.’ Quite recently I quoted the passage in an Italian publication, so it needed translating. Sensitive to the modern misgivings over the use of the word ‘race’, Cavalli-Sforza suggested I change it to ‘population.’ At first I was reluctant to do so on the grounds that quotations should be accurate and not altered to meet contemporary sensibilities. But he pointed out that, as the original author, I was the only person who could possibly object. I changed ‘present races of man’ to ‘present populations of man’ and sent the paper to be translated into Italian. When it was published the translator had rendered the phrase as ‘le razze umane moderne.’ (Edwards undated, unpublished manuscript)"

Ernst Mayr, "one of the 20th century's leading evolutionary biologists" (a "fringe lunatic" in the eyes of Lewontian ignoramuses) in "The Biology of Race and the Concept of Equality," 2002:

"There is a widespread feeling that the word "race" indicates something undesirable and that it should be left out of all discussions. This leads to such statements as "there are no human races." Those who subscribe to this opinion are obviously ignorant of modern biology. Races are not something specifically human; races occur in a large percentage of species of animals. You can read in every textbook on evolution that geographic races of animals, when isolated from other races of their species, may in due time become new species. The terms 11 subspecies" and "geographic race" are used interchangeably in this taxonomic literature."

Here's a study from 2010, "Ancestry informative markers for fine-scale individual assignment to worldwide populations," which also confirms what Tang, Ziv, Rosenberg, Risch, Witherspoon, etc. have demonstrated to be irrefutable:

"using all available SNPs, assignment of individuals to their self-reported populations of origin is essentially perfect."

Here's another quote (from an already mentioned study - Risch et al., 2002) that "populations" are races:

"Effectively, these population genetic studies have recapitulated the classical definition of races based on continental ancestry - namely African, Caucasian (Europe and Middle East), Asian, Pacific Islander (for example, Australian, New Guinean and Melanesian), and Native American."

Or from "'Race' — Still an Issue for Physical Anthropology?" by Kaszycka and Strzalko, 2003:

"Employing the term "race" in the populational sense, as a substitute for local population, may be convenient and is certainly traditional. That, indeed, was Dobzhansky' understanding of race"

From race deniers themselves; "Racing Around, Getting Nowhere," 2005: "Whether the term be 'race,' 'ethnicity,' 'geographic ancestry,' or some other favorite euphemism" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kobayashi245 (talk • contribs) 17:30, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Here's Alice M. Brues in "Forensic Diagnosis of Race — General Race vs Specific Populations," 1992:

"To the physical anthropologist, race is simply a phenomenon to be explained, as it is to the zoologist who sees the same kind of geographical diversity within nearly all widespread species. As a phenomenon, race is the fact that geographically separated populations differ in their gene frequencies and range of phenotypic variation, which therefore may be used to estimate the probability that an individual’s area of ancestry is more probably one place than another."

Here's regarding the argument that clines somehow disprove the factuality of races:

"Проблема расы в российской физической антропологии. Ин-т этнологии и антропологии, 2002:

Отрицать объективность рас на основании большого числа переходных вариантов можно с тем же успехом, с каким кто-то будет утверждать, что не существует ни красного, ни синего, ни желтого цвета, поскольку все они являются составными частями общего спектра, внутри которого не существует четких границ между отдельными составляющими этот спектр."

Google Translate:

"The problem of race in the Russian Physical Anthropology. Institute of Ethnology and Anthropology, 2002:

To deny the objectivity of the races on the basis of a large number of transitional options may be just as well, with what some would argue that there is neither red nor blue, or yellow in color, as they all are part of the overall spectrum, within which there are no clear the boundaries between the individual components of this spectrum."--Kobayashi245 (talk) 16:20, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Changing the problematic sentence

Okay, I'll start again.

"This argument has been cited as evidence that racial categories are biologically meaningless, and that behavioral differences between groups cannot have any genetic underpinnings. One example being the "Statement on 'Race'" published by the American Anthropological Association in 1998 which rejected the existence of races as unambiguous, clearly demarcated, biologically distinct groups."

To:

"This argument has been cited by some as evidence that racial categories are biologically meaningless, most notably in the United States, Canada and Western European countries. One example being the "Statement on 'Race'" published by the American Anthropological Association in 1998 which rejected the existence of races as unambiguous, clearly demarcated, biologically distinct groups. Others have disagreed with Lewontin's conclusion, and the biological concept of race is fully supported in China and widely accepted in Russia and Eastern European countries."

It's not bringing up Dawkins directly, but it does reference him in as "others." is the Lieberman survey, and are the papers by Štrkalj. So, objections, suggestions? If there are objections but no attempts to provide a better wording of the sentence, I will forward this to WP:DRN, because this isn't moving nowhere.--Kobayashi245 (talk) 14:00, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

The problem here is still that the Lewontin view is the mainstream view that appears in all the textbooks and the great majority of organizational statements, and the Edwards view is a minority quibble that has been put on the ash heap of history by the discovery of clinal variation throughout the human species, influenced at least as much by local environment as it is by founder population variation. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 01:07, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Disagree that Edwards is the minority view. Perhaps it is in the field of anthropology, but the acceptance and usefulness of biological races remains high in the field of biology. BlackHades (talk) 02:44, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

What sources do you have for the statement about usefulness of biological races? I have quite a few sources at hand in my office from the keyboards of professional biologists who think there is no such thing as "biological races" in the species Homo sapiens to which all participants here belong, and thus no usefulness in persisting in referring to that idea. I invite you and all onlookers to check the sources listed in the source list available to all Wikipedians who work on articles on these topics. Please suggest newer and better sources (per the reliable sources for medically related articles guidelines) if you know of them, with the same full details of citations that can be found in the source list. I continually add citations to the source list, and I am always happy to hear about more. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 03:55, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

The sources are provided above. Nobody is disagreeing with the fact that all humans belong to the same species, but there is huge disagreement that there are no human races, especially in China and Russia. Štrkalj suggests the rejection of race in the USA is mainly due to political correctness, as race is a sensitive issue there, the quotes of which I've already posted in the Race (human classification) talk. He makes this clear in two studies, in the one on China and in the one on Poland. Here's another quote from Štrkalj, from "Anthropologists' Attitudes Towards the Concept of Race: The Polish Sample," 2003:

"The United States has had a long history of racism, strongly expressed in both politics and scientic research. From the conict of European colonists and indigenous populations through slavery to the recent racial riots in big cities, Americans have experienced trau- matic interactions of what were or still are assumed to be different races. These have repeatedly been interpreted in racism terms by both propagandists and respected academics (Barkan 1992). As a result, Americans have become very sensitive to race, and the term itself has acquired strongly negative connotations. Many American scientists have opted for the nonexistence of human races (see, e.g., Livingstones declaration There are no races, there are only clines). Furthermore, the growing demands of political correctness militate against the use of the term in and outside science. As Diamond (1992:96) recently remarked: Even today, few scientists dare to study racial origins, lest they be branded racists simply for being interested in the problem."

See also the source provided by Maunus:

"I just came across Ann Morning's (2011) "The Nature of Race: How scientists think and teach about human difference" which inclues new surveys of American academics and textbooks. From a cursory overview it seems that Kobayashi and Blackhades will be happy with the results, because it suggests that biologists continue to have relatively more essentialists and less constructionist views of race at least in private and in high school textbooks (although with somewhat lower figures than in the 1985 survey). It also suggests that social scientists think that the constructionist view of race is widely accepted, while in fact that is not the case, so there is a source that says that we social scientists tend to overestimate our own views as consensus, whereas biologists do not consider their own views to be a consensus view."--Kobayashi245 (talk) 16:53, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

WeijiBaikeBianji, there was a recent post by Maunus from the source "Ann Morning's (2011) "The Nature of Race: How scientists think and teach about human difference" that showed that the race concept remains highly accepted by biologists today. There are also several sources that state that the mapping of the human genome actually caused a resurgence of the race concept in the fields of biology and the growing interest of biological differences between races.

"although the simplistic biological understanding of race and ethnicity associated with the eugenics movement may be dead, the far more subtle presumption that racial and ethnic distinctions nonetheless capture “some” meaningful biological differences is alive and flourishing..It was hoped by some that the sequencing of the human genome would undermine the view that racial and ethnic classifications have biological significance..Ironically, the sequencing of the human genome has instead renewed and strengthened interest in biological differences between racial and ethnic populations, as genetic variants associated with disease susceptibility (Collins and McKusick 2001), environmental response (Olden and Guthrie 2001), and drug metabolism (Nebert and Menon 2001) are identified, and frequencies of these variants in different populations are reported."

Foster, Morris W., and Richard R. Sharp. "Race, ethnicity, and genomics: social classifications as proxies of biological heterogeneity." Genome Research 12.6 (2002): 844-850.

"The study of genomics has resulted in a dizzying back-and-forth stance on race - first denial of any racial difference at the level of DNA, to later focusing attention on these differences...This renewed interest in the biology of race is surprising given that representatives of an array of natural and social sciences, including leading geneticists, once whole-heartedly denounced prior racial biomedicine."

Bliss, Catherine. "Racial taxonomy in genomics." Social Science & Medicine 73.7 (2011): 1019-1027.

"These ongoing practices have found new legitimacy in recent reanalyses of human genetic variation that seem to reverse Lewontin's claims. The completion of the Human Genome Project has facilitated large-scale genomic analysis of human populations, much of which uses "ancestry" to map genetics onto traditional racial categories (see Bolnick et al. 2007; Dupré 2008; Nelson 2008). This all contributes to what Troy Duster (2005) has identified as the molecular reinscription of race."

Whitmarsh, I., & Jones, D. D. S. (Eds.). (2010). What's the Use of Race?: Modern Governance and the Biology of Difference. MIT press.

BlackHades (talk) 11:04, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

The AAA statement shouldn't be in this article. It is not a direct response to Edwards or Lewontin. We shouldn't be turning this article into the broader debate about race and genetics because that would simply just turn this article into a complete duplicate of Race and genetics. This article should be focused on specific responses and critique of Lewontin and Edwards. Meaning the AAA statement should be removed, as well as the multi-locus allele clusters infobox, and anything else that are not directly related. BlackHades (talk) 02:57, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Well, removing the entire sentence, including "This argument has been cited as evidence..." would be one way of solving this WP:NPOV dispute.--Kobayashi245 (talk) 16:53, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Sources for response to and impact of Edwards 2003

This article has been through a lot of controversy over the years. It was nominated for deletion, but kept, its name has been changed, and it has undergone considerable edit-warring, with a current posting of a talk page notice about Arbitration Committee discretionary sanctions. I've been watching this page for a few years, and in recent weeks there has been a flurry of talk page discussion here, alas with remarkably little updating of the article text. I've been reading university textbooks on human genetics "for fun" since the 1980s, and for even longer I've been visiting my state flagship university's vast BioMedical Library to look up topics on human medicine and health care policy. On the hypothesis that better sources build better articles as all of us here collaborate to build an encyclopedia, I thought I would suggest some sources for improving this article and related articles. The Misplaced Pages guidelines on reliable sources in medicine provide a helpful framework for evaluating sources.

The guidelines on reliable sources for medicine remind editors that "it is vital that the biomedical information in all types of articles be based on reliable, third-party, published sources and accurately reflect current medical knowledge."

Ideal sources for such content includes literature reviews or systematic reviews published in reputable medical journals, academic and professional books written by experts in the relevant field and from a respected publisher, and medical guidelines or position statements from nationally or internationally recognised expert bodies.

The guidlines, consistent with the general Misplaced Pages guidelines on reliable sources, remind us that all "Misplaced Pages articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources" (emphasis in original). They helpfully define a primary source in medicine as one in which the authors directly participated in the research or documented their personal experiences. By contrast, a secondary source summarizes one or more primary or secondary sources, usually to provide an overview of the current understanding of a medical topic. The general Misplaced Pages guidelines let us know that "Articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible. For example, a review article, monograph, or textbook is better than a primary research paper. When relying on primary sources, extreme caution is advised: Wikipedians should never interpret the content of primary sources for themselves."

On the topic of human population genetics and variation within and among human populations, a widely cited primary research article is the 1972 article by Richard Lewontin, which I have seen cited in many of the review articles, monographs, and textbooks I have read over the years, and to which the Edwards paper that this Misplaced Pages article is about responds.

• Lewontin, Richard (1972). "The Apportionment of Human Diversity" (PDF). Evolutionary Biology. 6. Springer: 381–398. Archived from the original on 25 November 2010. Retrieved 23 November 2013. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)

As Wikipedians, we can evaluate where the findings in Lewontin's article fit in the current understanding of the topic of human genetic variation by reading current reliable secondary sources in medicine.

Some years after Lewontin published his primary research article on human diversity, when his primary research results had been replicated in many other studies and his bottom line conclusion that "about 85% of the total genetical variation is due to individual differences within populations and only 15% to differences between populations or ethnic groups" had been taken up by many textbooks on genetics and medicine, A. W. F. Edwards wrote a commentary essay in the journal BioEssays

• Edwards, A.W.F. (2003). "Human Genetic Diversity: Lewontin's Fallacy" (PDF). BioEssays. 25 (8): 798–801. doi:10.1002/bies.10315. PMID 12879450. Archived from the original on 25 November 2010. Retrieved 23 November 2013. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)

which is the topic of this Misplaced Pages article and in which Edwards proposes a statistical model for classifying individuals into groupings based on haplotype data. Edwards wrote, "There is nothing wrong with Lewontin’s statistical analysis of variation, only with the belief that it is relevant to classification," pointing to his own work with Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, the author of the book

• Cavalli-Sforza, Luigi Luca; Menozzi, Paolo; Piazza, Alberto (1994). The History and Geography of Human Genes. Princeton: Princeton University Press. ISBN 978-0-691-08750-4. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |laydate= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laysummary= ignored (help)

which I read soon after it was published in 1994. In his 2003 article, Edwards cites a lot of publications from his collaboration with Cavalli-Sforza. Edwards also mentions that collaboration prominently in his subsequent review article

• Edwards, A.W.F. (September 2009). "Statistical Methods for Evolutionary Trees". Genetics. 183 (1). Genetics Society of America: 5–12. doi:10.1534/genetics.109.107847. Retrieved 23 November 2013.

in which he describes their method for tracing ancestry with genes. Edwards even shows a photograph of Cavalli-Sforza with him in 1963 in his 2009 article, emphasizing their scholarly friendship.

So I wanted to look up Cavalli-Sforza's current views as well while I traced citations of the Lewontin 1972 article and the Edwards 2003 article in subsequent secondary sources. Misplaced Pages has a suggested template for articles about nonfiction books, and notability guidelines for nonfiction books, but nothing comparable for research journal articles, very few of which have their own Misplaced Pages articles. It looks to me from those analogous guidelines that discussing the scholarly reception of the Edwards 2003 essay in more detail would be helpful for updating this Misplaced Pages article.

Through searches with Google, Google Scholar, and Google Books, both from my home office computer and from a university library computer, I found a number of books and articles that cite both the Lewontin paper and the Edwards paper. Through a specialized set of wide-reaching keyword searches (for example, "Lewontin Edwards") on the university library's vast database subscriptions, I was able to obtain the full text of many of those articles and of whole books that discuss what current science says about grouping individuals of species Homo sapiens into race groups. I also found more up to date discussions by Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza of the Human Genome Diversity Project.

Listed here are sources that have the following characteristics: (1) they cite both previous articles by Lewontin and the 2003 article by Edwards, discussing the underlying factual disagreement between those authors, (2) they are Misplaced Pages reliable sources for medicine (in particular, they are secondary sources such as review articles or textbooks rather than primary research articles), and (3) they are currently available to me in full text through book-buying, library lending, author sharing of full text on the Internet, or a university library database. They are arranged in approximate chronological order, so that you can see how the newer sources cite and evaluate the previous sources as genetics research continues. The sources listed here are not exhaustive, but they are varied and authoritative, and they cite most of the dozens of primary research articles on the topic, analyzing and summarizing the current scientific consensus.

• Whitmarsh, Ian; Jones, David S., eds. (2010). What's the Use of Race?: Modern Governance and the Biology of Difference. Cambridge (MA): MIT Press. ISBN 978-0-262-51424-8. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |laydate= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laysummary= ignored (help)

• Ramachandran, Sohini; Tang, Hua; Gutenkunst, Ryan N.; Bustamante, Carlos D. (2010). "Chapter 20: Genetics and Genomics of Human Population Structure". In Speicher, Michael R.; Antonarakis, Stylianos E.; Motulsky, Arno G. (eds.). Vogel and Motulsky's Human Genetics: Problems and Approaches (PDF). Heidelberg: Springer Scientific. pp. 589–615. doi:10.1007/978-3-540-37654-5. ISBN 978-3-540-37653-8. Retrieved 29 October 2013. Most studies of human population genetics begin by citing a seminal 1972 paper by Richard Lewontin bearing the title of this subsection . Given the central role this work has played in our field, we will begin by discussing it briefly and return to its conclusions throughout the chapter. In this paper, Lewontin summarized patterns of variation across 17 polymorphic human loci (including classical blood groups such as ABO and M/N as well as enzymes which exhibit electrophoretic variation) genotyped in individuals across classically defined 'races' (Caucasian, African, Mongoloid, South Asian Aborigines, Amerinds, Oceanians, Australian Aborigines ). A key conclusion of the paper is that 85.4% of the total genetic variation observed occurred within each group. That is, he reported that the vast majority of genetic differences are found within populations rather than between them. In this paper and his book The Genetic Basis of Evolutionary Change , Lewontin concluded that genetic variation, therefore, provided no basis for human racial classifications. ... His finding has been reproduced in study after study up through the present: two random individuals from any one group (which could be a continent or even a local population) are almost as different as any two random individuals from the entire world (see proportion of variation within populations in Table 20.1 and ). {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |laydate= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laysummary= ignored (help)

• Krimsky, Sheldon; Sloan, Kathleen, eds. (2011). Race and the Genetic Revolution: Science, Myth, and Culture. Columbia University Press. ISBN 978-0-231-52769-9. Retrieved 31 August 2013. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |laydate= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laysummary= ignored (help)

• Tattersall, Ian; DeSalle, Rob (1 September 2011). Race?: Debunking a Scientific Myth. Texas A&M University Anthropology series number fifteen. Texas A&M University Press. ISBN 978-1-60344-425-5. Retrieved 17 November 2013. Actually, the plant geneticist Jeffry Mitton had made the same observation in 1970, without finding that Lewontin's conclusion was fallacious. And Lewontin himself not long ago pointed out that the 85 percent within-group genetic variability figure has remained remarkably stable as studies and genetic markers have multiplied, whether you define populations on linguistic or physical grounds. What's more, with a hugely larger and more refined database to deal with, D. J. Witherspoon and colleagues concluded in 2007 that although, armed with enough genetic information, you could assign most individuals to 'their' population quite reliably, 'individuals are frequently more similar to members of other populations than to members of their own.' {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |laydate= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laysummary= ignored (help)

• Barbujani, Guido; Colonna, Vincenza (15 September 2011). "Chapter 6: Genetic Basis of Human Biodiversity: An Update". In Zachos, Frank E.; Habel, Jan Christian (eds.). Biodiversity Hotspots: Distribution and Protection of Conservation Priority Areas. Springer. pp. 97–119. doi:10.1007/978-3-642-20992-5_6. ISBN 978-3-642-20992-5. Retrieved 23 November 2013. The massive efforts to study the human genome in detail have produced extraordinary amounts of genetic data. Although we still fail to understand the molecular bases of most complex traits, including many common diseases, we now have a clearer idea of the degree of genetic resemblance between humans and other primate species. We also know that humans are genetically very close to each other, indeed more than any other primates, that most of our genetic diversity is accounted for by individual differences within populations, and that only a small fraction of the species' genetic variance falls between populations and geographic groups thereof.

• Bliss, Catherine (23 May 2012). Race Decoded: The Genomic Fight for Social Justice. Stanford University Press. ISBN 978-0-8047-7408-6. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |laydate= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laysummary= ignored (help)

• Barbujani, Guido; Ghirotto, S.; Tassi, F. (2013). "Nine things to remember about human genome diversity". Tissue Antigens. 82 (3): 155–164. doi:10.1111/tan.12165. ISSN 0001-2815. The small genomic differences between populations and the extensive allele sharing across continents explain why historical attempts to identify, once and for good, major biological groups in humans have always failed. ... We argue that racial labels may not only obscure important differences between patients but also that they have become positively useless now that cheap and reliable methods for genotyping are making it possible to pursue the development of truly personalized medicine.

By the way, the Barbujani, Ghirotto, and Tassi (2013) article has a very interesting discussion of SNP typing overlaps across the entire individual genome among some of the first human beings to have their entire individual genomes sequenced, with an especially interesting Venn diagram that would be a good graphic to add to this article.

• Marks, Jonathan (October 2013). "The Nature/Culture of Genetic Facts". Annual Review of Anthropology. 42. Annual Reviews: 247–267. doi:10.1146/annurev-anthro-092412-155558. ISBN 978-0-8243-1942-7. ISSN 0084-6570. Retrieved 23 November 2013. Lewontin's conclusions have stood up remarkably well, across diverse kinds of genetic markers, but this produces an odd paradox.

An author who is intimately familiar with Edwards's statistical approach, because he has been a collaborator in fieldwork and co-author on primary research articles with Edwards, is Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza. Cavalli-Sforza is a medical doctor who was a student of Ronald Fisher in statistics, who has devoted most of his career to genetic research. In an invited review article for the 2007 Annual Review of Genomics and Human Genetics, Cavalli-Sforza joins issue directly with the underlying factual disagreement among previous authors, but cites different previous publications.

• Cavalli-Sforza, Luigi Luca (September 2007). "Human Evolution and Its Relevance for Genetic Epidemiology". Annual Review of Genomics and Human Genetics. 8. Annual Reviews: 1–15, . doi:10.1146/annurev.genom.8.080706.092403. ISBN 978-0-8243-3708-7. ISSN 1527-8204. PMID 17408354. Retrieved 23 November 2013. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |laydate= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laysummary= ignored (help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link)

GENETIC VARIATION BETWEEN AND WITHIN POPULATIONS, AND THE RACE PROBLEM

In the early 1980s, Lewontin (11) showed that when genetic variation for protein markers is estimated by comparing two or more random individuals from the same populations, or two or more individuals from the whole world, the former is 85% as large as the latter. This means that the variation between populations is the residual 15%, and hence relatively trivial. Later research carried out on a limited number of populations and mostly, though not only, on protein markers has confirmed this analysis. The Rosenberg et al. data actually bring down Lewontin’s estimate to 5%, or even less. Therefore, the variation between populations is even smaller than the original 15%, and we also know that the exact value depends on the choice of populations and markers. But the between-population variation, even if it is very small is certainly enough to reconstruct the genetic history of populations—that is their evolution—but is it enough for distinguishing races in some useful way? The comparison with other mammals shows that humans are almost at the lower extreme of the scale of between-population variation. Even so, subtle statistical methods let us assign individuals to the populations of origin, even distinguishing populations from the same continent, if we use enough genetic markers. But is this enough for distinguishing races? Darwin already had an answer. He gave two reasons for doubting the usefulness of races: (1) most characters show a clear geographic continuity, and (2) taxonomists generated a great variety of race classifications. Darwin lists the numbers of races estimated by his contemporaries, which varied from 2 to 63 races.

Rosenberg et al. (16 and later work) analyzed the relative statistical power of the most efficient subdivisions of the data with a number of clusters varying from 2 to 6, and showed that five clusters have a reasonable statistical power. Note that this result is certainly influenced by the populations chosen for the analysis. The five clusters are not very different from those of a few partitions that had already existed in the literature for some time, and the clusters are: (a) a sub-Saharan African cluster, (b) North Africa–Europe plus a part of western Asia that is approximately bounded eastward by the central Asian desert and mountains, (c) the eastern rest of Asia, (d ) Oceania, and (e) the Americas. But what good is this partition? The Ramachandran et al. (15) analysis of the same data provides a very close prediction of the genetic differences between the same populations by the simplest geographic tool: the geographic distance between the two populations, and two populations from the same continent are on average geographically closer than two from different ones. However, the Rosenberg et al. analysis (16) adds the important conclusion that the standard classification into classical continents must be modified to replace continental boundaries with the real geographic barriers: major oceans, or deserts like the Sahara, or other deserts and major mountains like those of central Asia. These barriers have certainly decreased, but they have not entirely suppressed genetic exchanges across them. Thus, the Rosenberg et al. analysis confirms a pattern of variation based on pseudocontinents that does not eliminate the basic geographic continuity of genetic variation. In fact, the extension by Ramachandran et al. of the original Rosenberg et al. analysis showed that populations that are geographically close have an overwhelming genetic similarity, well beyond that suggested by continental or pseudocontinental partitions.

A year later Cavalli-Sforza joined seventeen other genetics researchers as co-authors of a review article, published as an "open letter" to other scholars, on using racial categories in human genetics.

• Lee, Sandra; Mountain, Joanna; Koenig, Barbara; Altman, Russ; Brown, Melissa; Camarillo, Albert; Cavalli-Sforza, Luca; Cho, Mildred; Eberhardt, Jennifer; Feldman, Marcus; Ford, Richard; Greely, Henry; King, Roy; Markus, Hazel; Satz, Debra; Snipp, Matthew; Steele, Claude; Underhill, Peter (2008). "The ethics of characterizing difference: guiding principles on using racial categories in human genetics" (PDF). Genome Biology. 9 (7): 404. doi:10.1186/gb-2008-9-7-404. ISSN 1465-6906. Retrieved 3 December 2013. We recognize that racial and ethnic categories are created and maintained within sociopolitical contexts and have shifted in meaning over time Human genetic variation within continents is, for the most part, geographically continuous and clinal, particularly in regions of the world that have not received many immigrants in recent centuries . Genetic data cannot reveal an individual's full geographic ancestry precisely, although emerging research has been used to identify geographic ancestry at the continental and subcontinental levels . Genetic clusters, however, are far from being equivalent to sociopolitical racial or ethnic categories. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |displayauthors= ignored (|display-authors= suggested) (help)CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link)

I look forward to updating this article extensively in collaboration with other Wikipedians on the basis of these and any other reliable secondary sources you find. P.S. A special thank you to Wikipedians BlackHades and ArtifexMayhem, both of whom suggested sources on my user talk page as I was looking up sources for editing this and related articles. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 19:45, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Browsing through these sources, there appears to be common theme that is repeatedly mentioned. The sources consistently state that there is no consensus or agreement among scientists on the race concept and that many scientists accept the existence of biological races and find the classification useful, while many others don't. Jonathan Marks might have summed this up perfectly:

"Race, we must rather conclude, is underdetermined by genetics (Morning 2011). That is to say, it is genetically real when geneticists who believe it is real brandish their particular genetic data and statistical analysis (Risch et al. 2002, Edwards 2003), and it is unreal when geneticists who do not believe it is real brandish their genetic data and statistical analysis...the number of races of Europeans, say, may range from one (on the latest US Census, in 2010) to three (Ripley 1899) to five (Boyd 1963) to twelve (Coon 1939). None of these conclusions is more right than any of the others, for they are all coproduced by the natural facts of difference and by the cultural facts of classifying."

Marks, Jonathan (October 2013). "The Nature/Culture of Genetic Facts"

All the scientists are looking at and agree on the same objective data, but it is the interpretation of the data using subjective definitions and classifications that creates the disagreement. WeijiBaikeBianji's list of sources seem to either be from scientists that either are opponents of the race concept or neutral on the topic. Given the fact that all the sources, even the ones that oppose the race concept, consistently state there is disagreement and a lack of consensus in the scientific fields on the race concept (while citing plenty of sources from both sides of the arguments), a well balanced collection of sources for the article is needed. It cannot consist of only neutral or opposing perspectives. It must include proponent perspectives as well or else it creates WP:NPOV and WP:DUE issues. BlackHades (talk) 22:19, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I think if you have read other writings by Jonathan Marks (as I have, many times), you would better be able to grasp his meaning there. (I give you credit for trying to grapple with the meaning of a sentence that I think is inartfully written.) It is widely agreed by a lot of scientists that "race" has social meaning. In other words, to be treated as belonging to one race category or another, in one society or another, makes a big difference in an individual's life, up to and including changing health outcomes and educational opportunity. A classic nonfiction book on this reality is Black Like Me by Howard Griffin.

Griffin, John Howard (1961). Black Like Me. Robert Bonazzi (afterword). New York: Signet. ISBN 0-451-19203-6. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |laydate= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laysummary= ignored (help)

I wonder how many people would dare to try Griffin's experiment, even today? Meanwhile, there is a huge increase in the actual data we have now about genomic variance among human individuals, and the following two statements are well established facts: (1) "about 85% of the total genetical variation is due to individual differences within populations and only 15% to differences between populations or ethnic groups" and (2) "individuals are frequently more similar to members of other populations than to members of their own." These statements occur repeatedly in the current secondary sources because they are both based on numerous replicated primary research studies and accord with the theoretical framework of human genetics that has developed based on data gathered in the last decade. The writings of Guido Barbujani (like Edwards, a collaborator with Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza) are quite helpful in summing up what the data actually show, as Barbujani is a biologist. He notes in several of his recent writings that the first few full human genome sequences of individuals included the sequence of Seong-Jin Kim, a Korean scientist, who shares more SNP (single-nucleotide polymorphism commonalities with Craig Venter than James Watson does, and similarly shares more SNP commonalities with Watson than Venter does. Look up his articles or the primary research article by Ahn et al that Barbujani cites, and wrap your mind around what the data show. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 17:27, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

You're correct on point #1 and very misleading on point #2. To the extent that #2 is correct, it is only when just a few loci is sampled. Even still, individuals are much more likely to be more similar to members of their own population than other populations. This is the case even when just a few loci is sampled. But if enough loci is sampled, the probability that an individual will be more similar to members outside their population group than inside it, is zero.

"How often is a pair of individuals from one population genetically more dissimilar than two individuals chosen from two different populations?” depends on the number of polymorphisms used to define that dissimilarity and the populations being compared. The answer, Formula can be read from Figure 2. Given 10 loci, three distinct populations, and the full spectrum of polymorphisms (Figure 2E), the answer is Formula ≅ 0.3, or nearly one-third of the time. With 100 loci, the answer is ∼20% of the time and even using 1000 loci, Formula ≅ 10%. However, if genetic similarity is measured over many thousands of loci, the answer becomes “never” when individuals are sampled from geographically separated populations."

Witherspoon, D. J., Wooding, S., Rogers, A. R., Marchani, E. E., Watkins, W. S., Batzer, M. A., & Jorde, L. B. (2007). Genetic similarities within and between human populations. Genetics, 176(1), 351-359.

The prevailing/majority position in the field of biology is that race is both biological and social. This is what the sources from "Nature" journals show which for unknown reasons you declined to use. There are many more high quality sources I can provide that will argue this same point. There are of course certainly biologists that argue that race is entirely social and I never said there wasn't. But I don't understand the constant need to pretend the other side doesn't exist. Particularly when the other side happens to be the majority. BlackHades (talk) 19:49, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Come on, BlackHades, at least read the article closely enough to understand the structure of the argument in the Witherspoon paper. (The authors of the secondary sources I have cited all managed to do that.) From farther along in the paper than the cherry-picked quotation you found, which gives an intermediate step in the argument if certain real-world considerations are ignored, comes the authors' bottom line: "The fact that, given enough genetic data, individuals can be correctly assigned to their populations of origin is compatible with the observation that most human genetic variation is found within populations, not between them. It is also compatible with our finding that, even when the most distinct populations are considered and hundreds of loci are used, individuals are frequently more similar to members of other populations than to members of their own population. Thus, caution should be used when using geographic or genetic ancestry to make inferences about individual phenotypes." And that's what all the current sources say, because this has been empirically demonstrated on repeated occasions by now. To edit Misplaced Pages articles to an acceptable standard of verifiability, we have to read sources more closely and make sure to identify good sources in the first place. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 21:05, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

I never said or implied that the fact that individuals can be correctly assigned if enough genetic data is used, is in any way, not compatible with human genetic variation being mostly within population. (I clearly stated point #1 is correct) Nor did I ever argue or imply that samples of hundreds of loci equates to never being more dissimilar to a member within population than outside population. (100 loci sample equates to being more dissimilar to a member within population than outside population 20% of the time) The line "Thus, caution should be used when using geographic or genetic ancestry to make inferences about individual phenotypes" I absolutely fully agree with this line.

Nothing you wrote acknowledges the point I was making. When several thousands of loci is sampled, the probability that an individual will be more dissimilar to a member within population than a member outside of it is 0%. Meaning if one were to compare the entire genome of an individual and compare it to the entire genome of someone within population and someone outside the population, the individual will 100% of the time be more similar to the individual within population. This is why your point #2 is very misleading and incomplete. When small amounts of loci is sampled, your point #2 can be true in these scenarios, however it is never true if you were to compare entire genomes of individuals. This is what I was trying to explain to you and you haven't provided any reliable source that would refute this specific point. BlackHades (talk) 22:35, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

BlackHades, you are making broad generalizations that are not supported by the sources. The claim of 100% classification accuracy is only possible, as stated in Witherspoon, "when individuals are sampled from geographically separated populations." Witherspoon also disposes of the "theoretical illustrations" used by Risch et al. (2002) and Edwards (2003) that suggested "if enough loci are considered, two individuals from the same population may be genetically more similar (i.e., more closely related) to each other than to any individual from another population" and lead to Risch's claim that "two Caucasians are more similar to each other genetically than a Caucasian and an Asian." A claim shown to be incorrect by Bamshad et al. (2004 ).
The sources provide above by WeijiBaikeBianji do refute your claim that "if one were to compare the entire genome of an individual and compare it to the entire genome of someone within population and someone outside the population, the individual will 100% of the time be more similar to the individual within population." For example;

Today, developments in DNA sequencing technology allow us to compare completely sequenced genomes. Ahn et al. (54) observed that two US scientists of European origin, namely James Watson (11) and Craig Venter (2), share fewer SNPs (461,000) than either of them shares with a Korean scientist, Seong-Jin Kim (569,000 and 481,000, respectively)(Figure 2). Of course, this does not mean that, on average, people of European origin are genetically closer to Asians than to other Europeans. However, it does show that patterns of genetic resemblance are far more complicated than any scheme of racial classification can account for. On the basis of the subjects' physical aspect, a physician would consider Venter's DNA, and not Kim's, a better approximation to Watson's DNA. Despite ideological statements to the contrary (55, 56) racial labels are positively misleading in medicine, and wherever one is to infer individual genome characteristics.
— Barbujani, G.; Ghirotto, S.; Tassi, F. (2013). "Nine things to remember about human genome diversity". Tissue Antigens. 82 (3): 155–164. doi:10.1111/tan.12165. PMID 24032721.
(cited "ideological statements to the contrary" can be found in (55) Burchard et al. (2003) and (56) Risch et al. (2002))

See also: Barbujani, G.; Colonna, V. (2010). "Human genome diversity: Frequently asked questions" (PDF). Trends in Genetics. 26 (7): 285–295. doi:10.1016/j.tig.2010.04.002. PMID 20471132.

Very few sources, if any (that satisfy WP:RS), refute the fact that "individuals are frequently more similar to members of other populations than to members of their own", find it "very misleading". In fact the vast majority of high quality reliable sources don't find any genetic basis for racial classifications at all. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 10:59, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

The Venter genome and especially the Watson genome were sequenced using early technology that was extremely error-prone. I've heard that parts of the published Watson genome appear positively non-human due to these errors. Tal wrote:

The study of Ahn et al. (2009) suggests that the pairwise distances among three individuals, a Korean (“SJK”), Craig Venter and James Watson, measured by multilocus ASD, are roughly similar despite the distinct geographical origin of SJK in relation to Venter and Watson (see also their Fig. 2E). These results are surprising in light of our model for �n, which predicts that for worldwide distant populations (FST > 0.13) the probability for such an occurrence is virtually zero given as little as 200 independent and informative SNPs (Appendix F, Fig. F.1). In fact, with roughly 3.5 million SNPs sequenced in each individual genome, the pairwise distances Venter–Watson and Venter–SJK (or Watson–SJK) must show substantial discrepancy, since the ratio of average pairwise distances RAD is above 1.3 already at FST = 0.10 (see Fig. 5A). The paradoxical result is most likely an artifact of the high error rate and low coverage in Watson’s SNP calling (Yngvadottir et al., 2009). (emphasis added)

--Victor Chmara (talk) 11:36, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

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