Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 04:39, 14 June 2006

Rewrite

It has been said by many that this article was highly incorrect and even a little POV. Examples? Well the biggest being the fact that it was stated as only a cross reference birthed from power/thrash metal, which is ONE HUNDRED PERCENT incorrect. I have edited it including the facts PLUS what was in there already about power/thrash crossovers, thus making it as NPOV as I could. Please type up comments and whatever here before making major changes/reverts. --Ryouga 20:09, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Try to put stuff under subheadings. Maybe a brief section on the history, a section on the explanation of the speed metal sound, speed metal as being played now etc. Have less about bands with single speed metal songs and more about bands who played straight up speed metal such as agent steel, exciter etc. Talk about the evolution of speed metal into thrash and power metal, explaining key bands to do this (i.e. helloween as they moved away from their early speed metal sound). I would add this all but at the moment i'm doing some work for college. Thanks a lot for rewriting this!

PLEASE KEEP ARGUMENTS ON THE VALIDITY OF THIS MUSIC GENRE OUT OF THIS SECTION, THANKS --PureHolocaust 20:15, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll get to what I can whenever I can. If anyone can help out do so. Requests can go here as well, but if you want it done fast, just DIY! Thanks. --Ryouga 20:39, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately this article cannot be rewritten until a poll is passed on whether Speed Metal should be a genre or a cross reference. Either way, I intend to edit the factual accuracy of the article itself once I have discussed it with the appropriate users. --Ryouga 05:01, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

This article needs some work, no a lot of work.

Can this article be sorted out? Speed metal IS a valid genre that existed before thrash metal and power metal. There are bands who play pretty much exclusively speed metal, at least as much speed metal as other bands play of their main genre. I don't have all that much time to update this article. If someone else that has extensive knowledge on this genre of metal can rewrite this whole article it would be much appreciated. If nothing is being done in a couple of weeks then i may have time at that point to rewrite it.

There are also far more bands playing speed metal than is mentioned either here or the speed metal musical group page. A lot of early thrash metal bands were playing speed metal early on too, anthrax is an example. I think a lot more can be said about speed metal than this article lets on. It dwells too much on the old metal/rock bands who wrote single, one of speed metal songs. It should discuss the genre more, talk about bands who are much more speed metal such as agent steel. Talk about the misconception that speed metal and thrash metal are the same/similar. Discuss what speed metal is and why it differs from other forms of metal, also discuss the similarities.

Thanks to anyone who can add more/change more to this article to make it better.

This isnt a genre of music, its a cross term. The bands that 'play pure speed metal' ironically, always play power or thrash. And articles tend to do that, however, we are cracking down on made up genres such as this one. Ley Shade 12:18, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

You're either foolish or uneducated in metal to think that speed metal isn't a valid genre of metal. First lets compare speed metal to other "genres" listed on the heavy metal page. Avant garde metal? These bands fit into other genres of metal so why is that being kept? Folk metal also tends to fit into other genres of metal too.

If you listen to a lot of metal, especially 80's metal, you can clearly hear the difference between speed metal and thrash metal. Power metal was pretty much non-existant at that time also. The first thrash metal band to release an full length is usually considered metallica. This means that early venom can't be classed as thrash metal, they definitely can't be classes as traditional heavy metal nor power metal. What are they? Are they a mix of power metal and thrash metal? No because them genres wern't even around then. They are straight up speed metal. Exciter was another band that played pretty pure speed metal. They released a full length in the same year as metallica. If they were thrash you would have definitely heard more about them than you do currently.

Whatever a lot of people say, speed metal IS a genre of metal that predates thrash and power metal. There are speed metal bands and albums that cannot be classified as power metal nor thrash metal. --PureHolocaust 15:31, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

First off, i work in the Metal Scene around the world, and have contact daily with many of the bands your on about. Second, i lead the WP:HMM by self appointment as secutary.

No, Speed Metal is NOT a genre. I suggest reading the musical genre article. It is a MINOR term used by SOME fans, to depict MINOR differences between one band and the other. Speed Metal is not a genre, and Misplaced Pages will not list deep inaccuracies on the basis of a minor set of people wanting to 'create' a genre for their favourite, or lest favourite, bands. Ley Shade 15:37, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

You haven't answered anything i've just said, you've just gone out of your way to attempt to prove how knowledgeable you are to me. Speed metal is known as a valid genre by most people who actually know there metal. This isn't some made up genre based on bands sounding slightly different to one another. Back in the 80's a lot of bands sounded way more similar than bands these days. As metal grew, new genres moved further away from the original sound of metal. This is why to people who are new to metal (not saying you are) and who have jumped into black metal, death metal and modern doom metal may not appreciate the difference between speed metal and thrash metal; however, most fans of heavy metal who were listening to metal through the 80's tend to KNOW that speed metal existed as it was far more noticable as a genre than as it is now.

I would also like to point out AGAIN that speed metal predates both thrash metal AND power metal. But i'm guessing you won't try to question this. --PureHolocaust 15:53, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

First off, all the bands claimed to be Speed Metal, are mostly Power Metal and Thrash Metal. Ive also seen Gothic Metal, Black Metal and Death Metal bands called Speed Metal.

Second, im not at all new to metal and i do know what im talking about, trying to act bigger than anyone here will simply get your POV ignored.

Third, it was, and always has been, a term used to describe bands that dont fit Power or Thrash metal perfectly, due to one minor difference. It is not a genre, and after studying genres for years, and providing you with an article that gives yew a nice summed up defination, it would be foolish to try to argue it is a genre.

Speed Metal is an old term, used to talk about bands from across genres. Nothing more, nothing less. Ley Shade 16:37, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, bands who ARE speed metal are not power metal or thrash metal. Bands who CLAIM to be speed metal may not be speed metal, i agree. This happens in every genre. Back in the 80's bands claimed to be genres that they are not considered now. Didn't venom think they were power metal?

I am not giving my point of view. There is clearly a difference between speed metal and power metal and thrash metal, maybe you just do not see that. Why am i acting bigger than you? I started this talk topic not to 'act bigger than Ley Shade' but to help improve a topic about a valid genre of heavy metal music. I can see that you are the one instigating trouble.

It wasn't and will never be a term used to describe bands that don't fit power or thrash metal. I've pointed this out many times and I won't carry on this. And the article you pointed out does not apply because I disagreed with you... obviously.

I'm not here to look for trouble, even if you somehow assume I am. I am here to help improve wikipedia just like you. As many people do (which is against what you say) think that speed metal is a main genre of heavy metal music (more so than some claimed on the heavy metal genre page) I do not understand why it is not accepted.

I don't think there is any use in you replying again unless you state something which hasn't been stated yet. I'm not dumb... so don't think that i've missed some huge important point you had previously made. Thanks for your time. --PureHolocaust 17:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Can you name 1 band which is distinctly speed metal and neither thrash nor power metal? I know I can't. marnues 18:14, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Motorhead (not constantly speed metal on all albums but not thrash nor power), Venom (definitely not power, some might say thrash but not many would say venom started thrash metal), first helloween (some might say power metal but i'm sorry, their first album sounds nothing like their later power metal albums musically and it certainly isn't thrash metal). And if we are talking about songs then a lot of iron maiden track 1's are pretty much speed metal, not power nor thrash. Speed metal is sped up trad metal. Thrash metal is punk influenced trad metal. Power metal WAS heavier trad metal (not anymore but thats nothing to do with speed metal). These are all different in my opinion and the opinion of many others.

First off, your last statement made several personal attacks, so you violated WP:NPA. Then your also trying to violate WP:CITE and WP:NPOV. Well, thats three policys. Let me see, Policys > Your POV.

(Edit) I just checked your contributions. Albight updating and expanding some articles, i find it ironic how youve been changing bands genres from Thrash Metal/Power Metal to Speed Metal on various articles. Ley Shade 18:45, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I specifically aimed my last reply to prevent any personal attacks. What i'm also talking about is nothing to do with neutral point of view in the article. Discussing whether an article deserves to be classified as something (or even exist on wikipedia) is nothing to do with keeping a neutral point of view because it either is... or isn't.

I would also like to point out that the ONLY contribution I have made to wikipedia is to pretty much recreate the agent steel page because there were 4 lines of text... look how much there is now? I've kept everything neutral within that too... It already said in the article they were SPEED METAL. It said that before i edited it, it said that on page creation yet there was only the classification of thrash metal at the bottom. I changed this to speed metal as the speed metal band catagory page already existed (so why not use it?) and so i changed it to where it was supposed to go.

Which bands have i changed from thrash metal/power metal to speed metal? Spreading lies such as this must surely be against the rules... --PureHolocaust 19:15, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

WHAT A MISCONCEPTION! This article is so incorrect, and I am astonished at the lack of knowledge shown off by the writer(s) of it. The timeline says late 70's - before thrash metal or power metal! And speed metal is *NOT* always related to thrash metal or power metal. Examples: Motorhead is a great example. They predate power/thrash and arguably helped create speed metal. Venom is a good example too - some classify them as thrash, but anyone who knows what they are talking about would strongly disagree. Both bands predate power/thrash, and are NOT related to them. Judas Priest's Painkiller is not related to either genre really, and it came MUCH after speed metal was being played. Seriously, keeping the article like this shows off tons of POV, especially since this does not include that many (if not most) people think speed metal is a genre. PLEASE consider this, and do not show off this much ignorance. --Ryouga 01:08, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

PureHolocaust - thank you bro. You know what you're talking about.

"The bands that 'play pure speed metal' ironically, always play power or thrash." !!!!! This proves a lack of knowledge from your part. Please forgive me if I sound rude, but what a terribly ignorant thing to say. --Ryouga 01:12, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Judas Priest's "Stained Class" is generally regarded by thrashers (who almost always listen to speed metal as well) as the first speed metal album. Interesting how the article cites speed metal's origins as power and thrash CONSIDERING neither of those genres existed at the time. Pasajero 12:33, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with PureHolocaust, speed metal is a true Metal genre. --Epikon 17:01, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Guys, I think I speak for most of us when I say, "Let's start the rewrite!" I'll get to it some time soon, feel free to correct what you can.

My quick input. Though people keep labeling Juda; Priest as the first speed metal band, I would definitely say that's a very liberal use of the genre. The only album they did that I would consider speed metal is Painkiller. They are very much a Power Metal band. Motorhead is Heavy/Speed Metal. Can't say much about Venom as I don't like them much. However, I would bet that they would fall fairly well into Heavy Metal (maybe even Power Metal). I agree that this article needs a rewrite as I would say Speed Metal came from people playing any form of Heavy Metal that just wanted to speed up their music. But again it doesn't make a distinct genre. marnues 02:06, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you in part. Judas priest only released one album which can be considered a speed metal album that is painkiller. They are pretty much a traditional heavy metal band, definitely not to be considered a power metal band. Motorhead definitely had the speed metal sound inbedded into a lot of their work and i agree with what you said about them. Venom is no way near power metal, no way at all. You said you don't like them much, you should go back and listen to them again, not to like them but to realise that what you said is pretty damn false. They took Motorhead's sound to a new level and definitely retained the speed metal.

Not exactly sure how you read what I said about Venom, but I didn't say anything about them. I said I didn't know much about them, but I suggested that maybe they do fit into one of the other genres, which someone else said they were power metal. For all I know they do fit well into power metal, since as you pointed out, I don't know them very well. Also, I find a very common link between power metal of today and typical heavy metal of the late 70's early 80's, so I sometimes prefer to classify bands like Judas Priest or Iron Maiden as power metal. Probably should have stuck to heavy metal for Judas Priest here though. marnues 00:50, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Speed metal has a distinct sound. There are a wide variety of bands who play speed metal, but thats the same for any genre of music. Does Among the Living sound like Pleasure to Kill? How about Arghoslent sounding like Krisiun? The point is that every sub genre of metal really only has a few things that tie bands together, just like speed metal.--PureHolocaust 17:59, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Sure every genre has differences. Some bands take clear influences from other genres. However, that's not at stake here. Speed metal as a genre is completely non-unique. There are no speed metal bands who distinctly play only speed metal. They play some other form of metal (usually thrash or power, but also heavy, death, black), but speed it up to the point where it shares some similarities with other bands who play fast metal. If you think speed metal is a distinct genre, you'll have to find bands which don't fit well into any other metal genre. I certainly do not know of any bands like that. marnues 00:50, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Let's see if I can come up with such a list. Pasajero 09:35, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

• Venom - to claim that musically they are black would be rather odd since black metal itself is not a real genre rather an ideology/mindset. Thrash would be a very inaccurate description of them. Power metal? Not even close.
• Iron Angel - thrash!? no way! their riffs lack the choppiness of thrash; power is out of the question
• Exciter - see Iron Angel
• Bulldozer - see Venom

Here is an interesting thread that spurred up in the Metal-Archives forums. It speaks of the differences between speed and thrash. http://www.metal-archives.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=7639&highlight=&sid=a03d4665a29e43c7d347965537c7ffba Pasajero 11:34, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

This articles requires a massive overhaul. The current assertion that Speed Metal has its origins in Power and Thrash is utter rubbish. Speed Metal predates both genres. Thrash was basically a stylistic extention of Speed metal which added complexity, versatility, and tempo changes to the combined punk rock and new wave heavy metal music of the latter. Wisdom89 23:39, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Into the Void?

I don't think that Into the Void by Black Sabbath is speed metal. It just isn't speedy. It's a fantastic song, one of my favorite from Sabbath, but it exemplifies Sabbath's slow, lumbering, sludgy style. I think that this song should be removed as an early speed metal song.

My humble opinion

I'm an old hardcore-speed metal-fan and I can actually say that you guys are all fucked up =_=' you need a site to say to you what is speed and what is not and reading the article is obvious that you haven't understood anything. well guys, first of all LISTEN to the music, don't read it! Listen to 500/700 albums that may be called speed and find yourself what speed really is. Start with Exciter, then to the BELGIAN scene, then to the american, then to the scandinavian... and fuck up all those german shitty things, it (mostly) isn't speed! But the main thing is to JUDGE WITH YOUR EARS! listen to the born of speed, then go ahead to our days. This should be done with all heavy metal in fact, 'cause I'm reading something really ridicolous like "glam metal" and bullshits like this... Open your ears and close your eyes, guys. With love, an old, offended speedmetalbanger. (hope this will change something...)

--Response

Did and discovered a few GLAM METAL bands had one or two speed metal songs, mainly RATT and Motley Crue, and a couple had many, Twisted Sister and W.A.S.P. Skid Row alos took the speed metal path in the 1990's. Not starting an arguement, just stating I opened up my ears and judged and found a fast glam bands or glam bands with a couple of speed metal songs.

--Response 2 This an encyclopedia, which has as purpose to make articles about various subjects, such as music. People who want to find out things, either because they don't have time to research or the resources to do so, read these articles. So I vote we ignored what's written above and continue to write about speed metal.

Glam Metal?

I know that I'm going get laughed at probably, but I don't give a shit. It's my opinion. There were some glam metal songs with speed metal sounds. Examples:

• "Body Talk" by Ratt is definatly a speed metal styled song. It is slow and lame for 20 sceonds, but then it kicks into overdrive. Robbin Crosby and Warren DeMartini are basically playing for their lives in the song and it's definatly fast.

• "Live Wire" by Motley Crue is also extremely fast paced and sounds like an early thrash song. Faster than Highway Star.

• "Over the Mountain" by Ozzy Osbourne is also very fast played. Randy Rhoads has a monster riff that's fast paced, right when it opens and Carmine Appice's drumming is very fast.

Other Heavy Metal genres had Speed Metal styled songs:

• "Queen of the Reich" by Queensryche is a very fast paced song. With Chris DeGarmo and Michael Wilton playing very fast. Scott Rockenfeld also used minor blast beats.

• "Blackout" by Scorpions is another speed metal styled song. Rudy Schenker and Matthias Jabs are playing fast and Klaus Meine is singing fast as well.

• "Slave to the Grind" by Skid Row is also fast and mean. Sabo's guitar playing and Bolan's bass playing are fast and Bach's vocals are speedy.

• "Wait and Bleed" by Slipknot is another very fast song, hardcore styled.

• "Dig" by Mudvayne is also very fast.

• "B.Y.O.B." by System of a Down is another speed metal styled song. Daron's playing fast for quiet a while and Serj is also singing very fast.

• Twisted Sister also had a few, like "Under the Blade," "Stay Hungry," Don't Let Me Down," and "You Can't Stop Rock & Roll."

• Inbstrumentals should also count, like Van Halen's "Eruption."

• "Straight For the Heart" by Whitesnake is also semi-fast.

• "TV Crimes" by Black Sabbath is another speed metal styled song. Sabbath was speed metal band, but only when Dio was with them. The Dehumanizer was basically a speed metal album with "TV Crimes" and "Time Machine."

• "And last but not least, let's not forget Dio's "Stand Up and Shout." This song is very fast.

While it is true that many non-speed metal bands have recorded speed metal songs, it would be inappropiate to include them in the article or list of bands because that would give the impression that they actually play speed metal when they don't. As for SOAD, Slipknot, and Mudvayne they aren't even metal but rock. Besides speed metal by definition is sped up traditional metal a sound which none of previously mentioned bands have. Simply playing fast isn't enough to be considered speed metal. Pasajero 19:47, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Pasajero, just because a band has a fairly fast song does not make it speed metal. Most of the examples cited above are erroneuos. "Whiplash" by Metallica is a perfect example of what speed metal really is and you should pick a song like that to judge all the rest against in writing this article. Otherwise you'll end up doing what the person above did and cite any band that has a song with a faster than normal beat as speed metal.

So when is the rewrite going to happen?

Most everyone here agrees that speed metal is a genre on its own. I would also like to point out that the power metal article claims to have origins in speed metal therefore how can speed metal originate from power? (as suggested by this article)

1. Helloween mixed fast speed metal riffs with melodic ones and added Iron Maiden-like powerful vocals, further cleaning the sound.

2. Power metal, as the term is used today, places primary importance on an epic sound, usually at high speeds, primarily due to its speed metal roots, and with catchy melodies.

To sum it up, speed metal is fast traditional metal having its roots in the 1978 release "Stained Class" by Judas Priest (regardless whether you consider them speed or not). How can speed metal have its origins in thrash. Thrash came into existence around 1984. Bands like Motorhead, Venom, early Exodus, Exciter, Kill 'Em All-era Metallica, and Fistful of Metal-era (recorded in 83) Anthrax were all before 1984. So what were they playing? They were playin speed metal (mixed with other metal genres). Note that there were always "thrashy" demos before 1984, but being thrashy doesn't make it thrash. The afore mentioned bands might as well receive credit for creating speed metal in addition to Priest. As for "Red Skies Demo" by Metal Church and Exodus' first demo being thrash demos that predate 1984, sure the birth of thrash elements can be found there, but remember that these demo combined MANY elements of metal (namely speed) not just thrash. Therefore they can't be considered full on thrash. Any assertions that speed is just another term for "power metal", "thrash", or "metal simply played fast" are completely erroneous. This one of the most common mistakes made by so-called "metalheads". Hell, on one of the "Transcending the Mundane" editorials the author calls Dark Angel speed metal. And I thought these guys were supposed to be seasoned veterans. Yeahhhhhh........

For anyone who might argue that Kill 'Em All is pure thrash.

Listen to Hit the Lights, Motorbreath, Whiplash, Phantom Lord, & Metal Militia. 6 songs in all. That's more than half of the tracks from the album. These are clearly not thrash metal songs. They are speed metal. Speed/Thrash would be a much more accurate description of the album.

Speed metal gave birth to power and thrash metal. Those who incorporated bouncier more melodic riffs along with more falsetto like vocals created what would soon become known as power metal. Speed metal fused with hardcore punk introduced choppier speed/traditional riffs along with faster tempos and would end up being called thrash metal.

Candidates for the first speed metal album (as opposed to demo/recording):

• Judas Priest - Stained Class - 1978 (many may just cite this as an influence)
• Riot - Fire Down Under - 1981
• Venom - Welcome to Hell - 1981

Pasajero 09:02, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I've attempted a partial re-write today, derived from information already in the article. Although the blocked user Leyasu (who I'm sure many of you are familar with) seems to have a vendetta against the articles improve and continues to revert the hard work. If any of you who have previously worked on it can provide some sources that would be great, thanks. - Deathrocker 04:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Sources and non-subjective, non-POV claims would also be helpfull. I wont revert improvements, so if i revert, you know full well that what was put most definatly was NOT an improvement. Ley Shade