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Article alerts

This is a notice to let you know about Article alerts, a fully-automated subscription-based news delivery system designed to notify WikiProjects and Taskforces when articles are entering Articles for deletion, Requests for comment, Peer review and other workflows (full list). The reports are updated on a daily basis, and provide brief summaries of what happened, with relevant links to discussion or results when possible. A certain degree of customization is available; WikiProjects and Taskforces can choose which workflows to include, have individual reports generated for each workflow, have deletion discussion transcluded on the reports, and so on. An example of a customized report can be found here.

If you are already subscribed to Article Alerts, it is now easier to report bugs and request new features. We are also in the process of implementing a "news system", which would let projects know about ongoing discussions on a wikipedia-wide level, and other things of interest. The developers also note that some subscribing WikiProjects and Taskforces use the display=none parameter, but forget to give a link to their alert page. Your alert page should be located at "Misplaced Pages:PROJECT-OR-TASKFORCE-HOMEPAGE/Article alerts". Questions and feedback should be left at Misplaced Pages talk:Article alerts.

Message sent by User:Addbot to all active wiki projects per request, Comments on the message and bot are welcome here.

Thanks. — Headbomb {_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 09:41, 15 March, 2009 (UTC)

Proposal for a 200-WikiProject contest

A proposal has been posted for a contest between all 200 country WikiProjects. We're looking for judges, coordinators, ideas, and feedback.

The Transhumanist 00:39, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

{{User WikiProject Somalia}}

{{User WikiProject Somalia}} has bean created.--Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 12:26, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Clan lineage

On many of the clan and sub-clan articles, the lineage section consists of an unwieldy list. Anything where I've had to scroll down for more than one or two screens (example), I've been adding {{Cleanup-laundry}} in that section. I can't imagine, in their current state, how these lists could be useful to anyone - they seem to be lists of names. I propose that there should be some sort of guideline to keeping these concise, or that there is some sort of threshold for inclusion. One rule of thumb could be that a list item links to an actual article (I've been using that criteria for lists of notable people). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:03, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

• (Also posted this at Misplaced Pages talk:Africa-related regional notice board#Somali clan lineage.) -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:34, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

CambridgeBayWeather has edited Marehan, Dhulbahante and Majerteen, replacing the lengthy sub-clan listings with an attributed tree. This is much easier to read, and I think a good approach for other pages. Thanks. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:30, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I've taken a similar approach with the Hawiye article, see Talk:Hawiye#Sub-clan listings. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:34, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

The current is incomplete and inaccurate. Many sub-subclans have been erased as a result and I am wondering what is the wisdom behind doing so? The Somali clan family is very complex and some have even compared it to an onion, meaning no matter how you peel it, you will never get to the center. My point is, the previous template/configuration might have been irrelevant to non-Somalis, but it makes perfect sense to us Somalis and we would appreciate if the previous configuration is brought back. It makes no sense at all to have say Isaaq or Darood genealogy in a page that is about say Abgaal. I hope you will correct this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Evolvingprimate (talk • contribs) 15:10, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

This is evolvingprimate by the way. Just can't seem to see how to post to the discussion with my username

It needs to be comprehensible by anyone, and there needs to be a threshold for inclusion. It might make better sense on Somali Misplaced Pages, but where I also expect there is a similar policy or guideline in place regarding notability, verifiability, readability etc. The information also needs to be verifiable, which it is following the updates. I think another alternative is to simply remove such listings. (By the way, you can add your signature by typing ~~~~). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:43, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback Gyrofrog. I agree with your comprehensibility and threshold for inclusion. But the latest style does exactly the opposite. It is not indepth, omits many sub-sub clans and provides a very vague and incomplete list of Somalia's clan families. The list from the CIA and the World Fact Book that you have used provide simply a very rudimentary and basic information and eliminates many sub-clans in the process. Just to illustrate my point. A sub-clan like Abgaal is divided into 3 main branches. These 3 main branches then break down into dozens of sub-clans and so forth. The current one that you endorse eliminates all these sub-clans and makes things as basic as possible. It will help everyone if the list is made as comprehensive and indepth as possible. This will make Misplaced Pages a better place for information and the same time accurate, which I understand is your goal. (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:31, 15 December 2009 (UTC).

I am all for expanding the lists, if the information can be verified, and up to a certain point. I think if someone has to scroll down (especially more than one screen) to see the end of the list, then it's too long, and either needs to be pruned, or part of it needs to be moved to another article. We have been using verifiability as a threshold for inclusion, and information should be verifiable in the first place as part of Misplaced Pages policy. We are trying to avoid having lists like this old version. Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:57, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Somalia Affair

A dispute has arisen on the Somalia Affair article regarding what I and another user believe to be the gratuitous use of racist language (namely, the word nigger) where it is not warranted and when WP:PROFANITY specifically instructs that it should be relegated to footnotes, as "the strong wording is relevant but not central to the statement". The other party in the dispute believes that the strong language is indeed relevant and central to the statement, and therefore ought to be preserved at all costs. We have discussed this particular issue and another related one involving the contents and the formatting of a specific wiki table in some detail on the article's talk page. It would be appreciated if all interested parties post their views on both issues at that location after having first read the relevant links above. Middayexpress (talk) 19:32, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Sub-clan articles and redirects

I have redirected a number of sub-clan articles to their respective major clan articles (Category:Somali clans has gone from approx. 150 articles to 30, as a result). At least one editor believes this was an overly bold move on my part, but seeing how many of these articles had been tagged for one issue or another (no references, clean-up etc.) for up to three years in some cases, I personally don't think there was anything bold about it.

For the most part, I did these as redirects, not merges: In most cases, the sub-clan articles consisted of unreferenced information and an unwieldy (and effectively non-useful) list of sub-sub-clans. The main clan articles certainly would not gain anything from merging that information. This does not preclude having separate sub-clan articles in the future, but at this time the articles really did not stand on their own.

I am reverting to the re-direct when I see an edit revert back to a version that lacks attribution (or has additional issues). Again, most of these had been tagged for months, and in many cases for years.

Generally, if a given sub-clan article had sources, then it could stand on its own, and I did not redirect (unless the same content was already in the main article). Also, in a couple of cases, if a given sub-clan did not have an identifiable "parent" clan (e.g. Meheri) then I left it as-is.

See also: Talk:Isaaq#Merges and redirects to this article and Talk:Darod#Redirects to Darod. Thank you. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:37, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Cisman Mahmoud

There are problems with two of the references in Cisman Mahmoud. I have also proposed moving the article to "Ismaan Mahamuud" or "Osman Mahamud". See Talk:Cisman Mahmoud for more details. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Y Done, thanks Middayexpress. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:58, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

The letter c

I propose that we re-name articles that use the letter "c", if and when there is a known preferred English spelling. The letter "c" has a completely different usage in Somali (i.e. as a voiced pharyngeal fricative) than it does in English, and I don't think it's useful to name articles that way in the English Misplaced Pages. (Example: Rename Cisman Mahmoud to either "Ismaan Mahamuud" or "Osman Mahamud") -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks to Middayexpress for taking care of Cisman Mahmoud/Osman Mahmoud. I've also moved Ceel Waaq (and redirected Ceelwaaq) to El Wak, Somalia. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:28, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

WP 1.0 bot announcement

This message is being sent to each WikiProject that participates in the WP 1.0 assessment system. On Saturday, January 23, 2010, the WP 1.0 bot will be upgraded. Your project does not need to take any action, but the appearance of your project's summary table will change. The upgrade will make many new, optional features available to all WikiProjects. Additional information is available at the WP 1.0 project homepage. — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:56, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Unreferenced living people articles bot

User:DASHBot/Wikiprojects provides a list, updated daily, of unreferenced living people articles (BLPs) related to your project. There has been a lot of discussion recently about deleting these unreferenced articles, so it is important that these articles are referenced.

The unreferenced articles related to your project can be found at >>>Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Somalia/Unreferenced BLPs<<<

If you do not want this wikiproject to participate, please add your project name to this list.

Thank you.

Update: Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Somalia/Unreferenced BLPs has been created. This list, which is updated by User:DASHBot/Wikiprojects daily, will allow your wikiproject to quickly identify unreferenced living person articles.

There maybe no or few articles on this new Unreferenced BLPs page. To increase the overall number of articles in your project with another bot, you can sign up for User:Xenobot_Mk_V#Instructions.

If you have any questions or concerns, visit User talk:DASHBot/Wikiprojects. Okip 23:29, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Hussein Shuqul

The article on Somali General Hussein Shuqul has been tagged as an "unreferenced BLP" since May 2008. I came across the article as May 2008 is the current focus for the Unreferenced BLP Rescue Project. I have tried, and failed, to come up with any reliable third party references to support the text. As a Chief of Staff in the Somali Army, I believe he should meet the Military History Notability Guidelines but this is not my area of expertise. I'm posting here in the hope that someone in this project with more knowledge of recent Somali history than I have might like to take an interest in the article.--Plad2 (talk) 21:40, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Somalia articles have been selected for the Misplaced Pages 0.8 release

Version 0.8 is a collection of Misplaced Pages articles selected by the Misplaced Pages 1.0 team for offline release on USB key, DVD and mobile phone. Articles were selected based on their assessed importance and quality, then article versions (revisionIDs) were chosen for trustworthiness (freedom from vandalism) using an adaptation of the WikiTrust algorithm.

We would like to ask you to review the Somalia articles and revisionIDs we have chosen. Selected articles are marked with a diamond symbol (♦) to the right of each article, and this symbol links to the selected version of each article. If you believe we have included or excluded articles inappropriately, please contact us at Misplaced Pages talk:Version 0.8 with the details. You may wish to look at your WikiProject's articles with cleanup tags and try to improve any that need work; if you do, please give us the new revisionID at Misplaced Pages talk:Version 0.8. We would like to complete this consultation period by midnight UTC on Monday, October 11th.

We have greatly streamlined the process since the Version 0.7 release, so we aim to have the collection ready for distribution by the end of October, 2010. As a result, we are planning to distribute the collection much more widely, while continuing to work with groups such as One Laptop per Child and Misplaced Pages for Schools to extend the reach of Misplaced Pages worldwide. Please help us, with your WikiProject's feedback!

For the Misplaced Pages 1.0 editorial team, SelectionBot 23:38, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Question on List of Somalis

There is some ambiguity or dispute regarding the scope of the article List of Somalis. An editor recently added an athlete to the list, and another editor removed her on the grounds that, despite being of Somali nationality, she is not an ethnic Somali. The second editor considered that the list is intended exclusively for people of Somali ethnicity, and that this is demonstrated by the lead, which stated "This is a list of notable Somalis from Somalia, Djibouti, and those of Somali descent living elsewhere in the world" (with "Somalis" linking to the article on Somali people, the ethnic group). I reverted, arguing that the article was categorised under "Lists of people by nationality", and that it was therefore intended for people of Somali nationality, as well as people of Somali ethnicity. In addition, the original lead of the article, back in 2004, described it as a "list of people from Somalia". The editor re-reverted me, insisting that the article was meant only for people of Somali ethnicity, and that it should exclude ethnic minorities within Somalia; he changed the article's categorisation to match his interpretation, removing it from the category "Lists of people by nationality" and adding it to "Lists of people by ethnicity". I pointed out that this means there is no longer a list of people of Somali nationality, but he believes this is immaterial, since "just about all extant Wiki bios of notable Somali citizens are of people specifically from the Somali ethnic group, not any of the country's ethnic minorities".
So I'm seeking clarification from you, WikiProject Somalia. There needs to be some clarification, one way or another, and I would prefer it to be based on consensus, rather than unilateral recategorisation of articles. Is this to be a list of people of Somali ethnicity, or of Somali nationality, or should it be open to both? If it's open to both, how should it be presented? If it's solely a list of people of Somali ethnicity, then where should people of Somali nationality be listed (if anywhere)? Misplaced Pages standard procedure is to have lists of people from every nationality, but it might seem odd to have two separate lists here. I would suggest they be conflated, as the least awkward solution in my view (i.e., confirm that this is a list of people of Somali nationality and/or ethnicity), but I'm aware that's far from being a perfect solution either. Thoughts? Aridd (talk) 07:58, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually, what happened was that a newly-created account added to the List of Somalis article a link to a Misplaced Pages bio on an athlete from Somalia. However, although the athlete in question is indeed from Somalia, she is not actually from the Somali ethnic group on which the List of Somalis article is based in the first place; she is from one of the nation's minority ethnic groups, as her biographical article clearly states. I therefore logically removed the link-through to the athlete's article, and fully explained in some detail to the user above my reasons for doing so, both in my edit summary and in this discussion on his talk page (where my comments that are quoted above can be read in their proper context). Here's basically what I pointed out to the editor; the List was indeed intended for Somalis only because:

• Its introduction clearly indicated at the time of the start of the dispute a few days ago that "This is a list of notable Somalis from Somalia, Djibouti, and those of Somali descent living elsewhere in the world", with the key subject term "Somalis" linking-through to the Somali people ethnic group article, not to the Somalia article.
• The reference to Djibouti (a separate country from Somalia, where about 60% of the local population belongs to the Somali ethnic group) and "those of Somali descent living elsewhere in the world" (a reference to Somalis inhabiting both other parts of so-called Greater Somalia as well as the Somali diaspora) likewise clearly demonstrates that the article pertained to the Somali ethnic group only.
• The List only features actual Somalis in it, irrespective of their country of origin; it does not feature any people from Somalia's minority ethnic groups such as Bantus, Bajunis or Bravanese. This is what I meant when I indicated that "It's also not really an issue if there is no page listing notable people with Somali citizenship since just about all extant Wiki bios of notable Somali citizens are of people specifically from the Somali ethnic group" -- there is literally only one existing Misplaced Pages biography on a citizen of Somalia that is not from the Somali ethnic group; and as it so happens, that article is the same athlete's bio that the initial new account tried to add to the List of Somalis article.
• Somalia was named after the area's numerically dominant ethnic group; namely, the Somalis. In other words, the term "Somali" as an ethnonym long preceded its invention as a denonym in the colonial period, and is, in fact, the very reason for the existence of the denonym in the first place.

To the various points enumerated above, the editor counters that since the List has among its categories the "Lists of people by nationality" category, it was therefore intended for people of Somali nationality. However, as I've also pointed out to him, this is misleading, as the article is also listed under the Category:Djibouti-related lists category; it obviously wouldn't be if it were only about citizens of Somalia. The "List of of people by nationality" category was also added back when the article contained only a short list of ethnic Somalis, all exclusively from Somalia. Now, several years later, the article has grown to include many more biographies from Somalis from all regions, so the category is no longer appropriate. The "Lists of people by nationality" category therefore needed to be changed to the "Lists of people by ethnicity" category to reflect the present contents of the article, not what the article may have been like four years ago (the last time the article's lede indicated that it only pertained to people from Somalia). This is why I replaced that category with the more appropriate "Lists of people by ethnicity" category. The editor is right about one thing, though: There obviously cannot be two lists labeled "List of Somalis". But making the list simultaneously about ethnicity and nationality is not an alternative either, as ethnic Somalis do not traditionally just come from a single country and people from Somalia are not just from the Somali ethnic group. Somali citizens of Djibouti, or in the Ogaden with Ethiopian citizenship, or in the North Eastern Province with Kenyan citizenship, for example, have very little if anything in common with the ethnic minority citizens of Somalia; the people they share actual kinship ties with in the country are their fellow Somalis. That is the common denominator. The same goes for Somalis born abroad in the diaspora, or especially people of partial Somali descent.

Per the relevant WP:CAT policy:

• Each article should be placed in all of the most specific categories to which it logically belongs.
• It should be clear from verifiable information in the article why it was placed in each of its categories. Use the {{Category unsourced}} template if you find an article in a category that is not shown by sources to be appropriate, or the {{Category relevant?}} template if the article gives no clear indication for inclusion in a category.

All of the actually verifiable material indicates that, while the people in the List do not all share nationality, they certainly do all have ethnicity in common -- they are all from the Somali ethnic group, regardless of their country of citizenship. Some were even born abroad or are only partly of Somali descent. Hence, the common denominator is obviously their ethnicity, not their nationality (and one specific nationality at that): the former is clearly the most specific, all-encompassing and appropriate type of category the article belongs in. Middayexpress (talk) 12:49, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject cleanup listing

I have created together with Smallman12q a toolserver tool that shows a weekly-updated list of cleanup categories for WikiProjects, that can be used as a replacement for WolterBot and this WikiProject is among those that are already included (because it is a member of Category:WolterBot cleanup listing subscriptions). See the tool's wiki page, this project's listing in one big table or by categories and the index of WikiProjects. Svick (talk) 20:43, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Unsourced edits to Somalia articles

After noticing a comment thrown into the Balad, Somalia article, I reviewed the history of the article to try to fix and revert some mistakes and deletions on it. I noticed that IP addresses 86.180.32.115, 86.183.234.130, and 86.183.146.49, among potentially others, have made similar, unsourced edits to multiple article about Somalia. For example, Balad is noted to have the nickname of Teyteyley (later, User:Taytayley edited Balad, Somalia, complaining about the accuracy of a reference). Because of edits by these IPs, Misplaced Pages and derivatives is the only page indexed by Google that mentions Hassan Gedi Abtow . There seem to be more similar edits.

I am not sure if this added information is just content that cannot be readily found elsewhere, or subtle vandalism to the pages. As I know little about Somalia, could one of you at the project help by investigating this? Thanks! Joe Schmedley 03:17, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Infobox Images for Ethnic Groups

You are invited to join the discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups#Infobox Images for Ethnic Groups. Gyrofrog (talk) 18:39, 20 January 2011 (UTC) (Using {{Please see}}) -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:39, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

RFC at al-Shabaab

A quick tip off: There's an RFC that's relevant to this project at talk:al-Shabaab#Somaliland RFC. --Copper button 19:24, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Discussion at Articles for Deletion

See Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Republic of Ogadenia. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:52, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Template:Somalia_topics edit war

There's presently a discussion at Template_talk:Somalia_topics that hasn't been going anything, and the participates persist in reverting each other. I'm not knowledgeable in the issues being discussed, so it would be helpful if someone here were to provide a third opinion in this dispute. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 12:34, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Ive posted an opinion on the page.XavierGreen (talk) 04:17, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Category:African musical instruments

You are invited to join the discussion at User talk:Redheylin#Where did you get consensus for dumping everything into "African musical instruments"?. Gyrofrog (talk) 18:19, 2 June 2011 (UTC) (Using {{pls}})

WikiWomen's History Month

Hi everyone. March is Women's History Month and I'm hoping a few folks here at WP:Somalia will have interest in putting on events (on and off wiki) related to women's roles in Somalia's history, society and culture. We've created an event page on English Misplaced Pages (please translate!) and I hope you'll find the inspiration to participate. These events can take place off wiki, like edit-a-thons, or on wiki, such as themes and translations. Please visit the page here: WikiWomen's History Month. Thanks for your consideration and I look forward to seeing events take place! SarahStierch (talk) 22:18, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Muse clan

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Muse clan. Gyrofrog (talk) 19:06, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Template:Z48

A new template

The current Somalia Wikiproject template is redirecting to the AfricaProject one. Most other national Wikiprojects have their own template. Instead using the current one where you need to add Somalia as a sidebar wich notes 'This article is supported by WikiProject Somalia', we can create an independent template. Who is interested? Runehelmet (talk) 17:37, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Are you sure about the redirect? The template/redirect has been deleted for a while, unless there's a similar template out there somewhere.

I've generally been using the WP:AFRICA template, myself, especially when a particular article is related to more than one country. This way we only need one infobox, instead of 2 or 3. The resultant categorization for the specific country (or countries) is the same either way.

Having said that, looking at the (deleted) edit history, the WP:SOMALIA template had always been a redirect to WP:AFRICA, ever since it was created. (That's not how I remembered it, but that's what the edit history says.) However, the redirect caused some technical problems (which, if you're interested, you can read about in an old discussion). These were fixed, but not long after that the template was flagged for deletion. By that time, most of the articles were already using WP:AFRICA (since the redirect hadn't been working for quite a while). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:51, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Interesting to hear. But is it not time to change it. If we look at our related projects e.g Ethiopia their project banner template don't have the WikiProject Africa|project name=yes style. I'm just suggesting; is it possible to create or edit it so it's independent of the Africa Project? Like:

Somalia Project‑class

This page is within the scope of WikiProject Somalia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Somalia on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SomaliaWikipedia:WikiProject SomaliaTemplate:WikiProject SomaliaWikiProject Somalia Project This page does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

Runehelmet (talk) 17:13, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Sure it's feasible. A good model to follow for this perhaps might be template WikiProject Egypt. Middayexpress (talk) 15:07, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Exactly, but do you know how to create that kind of a template? Runehelmet (talk) 17:52, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I've started draft template and documentation sub-pages. Feel free to tweak them as needed. We can move them to the mainspace when they're ready. Middayexpress (talk) 14:28, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Alright good to hear, I'm looking forward to see it. Runehelmet (talk) 17:28, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Puntland

I've(not a member of this project, awww!) proposed for WP:PUNTLAND. Please do visit that and make your remarks.Mir Almaat Ali Almaat ☏ From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 07:09, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Beautiful pictures of this country

Hi, just a quick note about this category on Commons containing photos related to this country which could really use inclusion in Misplaced Pages articles, beside an improved categorization. Thanks for your help! --Elitre (talk) 13:10, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Somali shilling

Hi,

For the Least valued currency unit article we are in dire need of an up-to-date source for the market value for the Somali shilling, Unfortunately I can't seem to find anything online other than the fact that value has risen significantly recently. Possibly someone on here knows of a Somali language source with more current data?

Thanks, 12:01, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Somalis in the United Kingdom

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Somalis_in_the_United_Kingdom#Undue_.26_unrepresentative. Middayexpress (talk) 09:52, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Split proposal for Piracy in Somalia

This is a notification that I've proposed a split of Piracy in Somalia. Please see Talk:Piracy in Somalia#Split for details and to voice your opinion. Thanks, BDD (talk) 21:57, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Battle of Gedo

Hi again, I have some concerns about the Battle of Gedo article. I invite you to comment at Talk:Battle of Gedo#Scope. Thanks, BDD (talk) 17:33, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

does ancient somali writing (pre Wadaad's writing) exist?

Hi Somalia editors. Recently, someone asked a question on the reference desk (current link link after June 13) about finding an image of the writing referred to in Somali ancient script. In researching the answer, I began to wonder whether this script even exists.

1. The article (as well as Somali language and Somali people)) both base the existence of this undeciphered script on a 1878 Royal Society report: which mentions inscriptions in only two sentences: (p447) "I also discovered ancient ruins and rock-inscriptions both in pictures and characters. These have hitherto not been deciphered."

2. How can we claim that an undeciphered script exists on the basis that a traveller in 1878 saw inscriptions that no one could translate for him at the time?

3.(Somali ancient script used to say, based on this source, "The findings of archaeological excavations and research in the area by the Royal Geographical Society of Great Britain, among others, show that this civilization had an ancient writing system that remains undeciphered." I changed this yesterday to reflect what the source actually says.)

4. Trying to find a source for a Somali writing system that predated Wadaad's writing, I could only find this paper by someone at the Uni of Turin that claims there was NO indigenous writing in the Somalia region until Arabic script arrived (i.e. Wadaad's writing).

5. So does a pre-Wadaad's writing script even exist?

6. If it does, can we find a better source (and an image for the original questioner)?

7. If it doesn't, should this article be merged with Wadaad's writing?

Thanks, 184.147.118.213 (talk) 17:28, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, an ancient Somali writing script exists. It was described by the Somali government in at least two of its publications on Somali writing systems, including one cited on the Somali ancient script page (c.f. ). Middayexpress (talk) 12:47, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Excellent, that's a better source than the 1878 mention. Can you help find a picture of it for the Ref Desk questioner? Thanks, 184.147.118.213 (talk) 17:55, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Maxamuud Axmed Cali

There is a new stub at Maxamuud Axmed Cali but the text is not in English. Two of us have both concluded that he is from Somalia (see talk page), and I wonder whether there is an alternative spelling used in English language sources. Perhaps someone from this project could have a look and improve the article? Thanks. PamD 08:23, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Matthew Bryden

WikiProject Somalia members are invited to join the discussion at WANI. It concerns a content dispute on the wiki page on Matthew Bryden, the former UN Coordinator for the Somalia and Eritrea Monitoring Group (SEMG) and Horn of Africa political analyst. Project members are also encouraged to edit the page, as it could certainly benefit from knowledgeable contributors. Middayexpress (talk) 18:29, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Widespread Review Needed?

As a neutral party in the previous edit wars on various topics here, and someone just trying to find information out on the region, I have to say that several of the smaller articles are just an absolute mess, severely lacking in content and references. To use the articles on the federal member states of Somalia as an example, and leaving aside what I can tell from the talk pages are highly controversial pages for Somaliland and Puntland, there are some major issues which immediately jump to mind from an article-by-article reading:

1). The list of states in the template differs from the list given in the article in that the latter also includes a 'Zelia and Lughaya State' in part of Awdalland. This article itself has three sources given-

i. The CIA world factbook which, while authoritative, does not give any evidence for the states given (indeed it does not even mention any except Somaliland and Puntland)

ii. A link supposedly to a PDF of the draft constitution which is actually to a site discussing yoga.

iii. A guide to the draft federal constitution (but not the draft itself) which merely indicates that there will be autonomies and that existing de facto governments such as those of Somaliland, Puntland and Galmudug (the only three mentioned by name) can initiate a process to have formal autonomy in the federation recognised. Which together clearly indicates this article needs much better referencing.

2). The article for Awdalland includes no information on whether or not it actually controls any territory (from the sources given, it appears not to and be based entirely around the aspirations of expatriate groups), or indeed if there's any support in Somalia for it, or if there's any link between the 1995 movement for independence and the 2010 autonomy declaration. The references given are:

i. A text not available online but which I assume is of good quality based on the benefit of doubt.

ii. A link to the 1995 declaration of independence for a statement largely divorced of context

iii. A source for the song which, while probably reporting accurate information, could be considered to break NPOV.

iv. A dead link

v. A definitely NPOV breaking opinion piece that is clearly labelled as so in the source

vi. An online academic text that looks to be of high standard applying to the same section as v

vii. The general website for iii which seems to imply that Awdalland is near-exclusively an expatriate movement, but is unclear on the matter.

viii. An essentially contentless video which consists of nothing but a series of still images of the flag and places in Awdalland labelled as such with no actual information about it.

ix. A dead link

x. A Somali language site that appears to consist of nothing but short videos of still images set to music.

xi. A dead link.

Even leaving aside the NPOV issues, between dead links, opinion pieces and essentially contentless links, there is a serious need for review of the sources here.

3). A well written, well referenced, NPOV (so far as I can tell) article on Jubaland which should be used as an example on how to do the other articles.

4). A somewhat less detailed article on Galmudug which includes an actual link to the draft constitution of Somalia and shares many of the good qualities of the Jubaland article.

5). An article on Hiban and Heeb completely lacking in any content and with a single reference, itself to a site that gives nothing more but an unreferenced flag bereft of any context. Frankly this qualifies as an AFD in its current state.

6). An article on Khatumo State that is at about the same standard as Galmudug, but relies heavily on a single news website.

7). An article on Zelia and Lughaya State only accessible from the 'states and regions of Somalia' article that appears to consist of a brief, but well sourced, history of the Awdal region and essentially nothing else. The only external reference is a dead link, there is no information on whether this is a region, a self declared state, an autonomous region (self declared or not), whether it's in conflict with Awdalland or Somaliland or both, or if it even exists. This is also a definite AFD candidate in the current state.

In general, there is a severe lack of good referencing here, even leaving aside any potential NPOV issues with the news sources used (something which seems to have been an issue in the past judging by the talk pages). At the moment, as an outside party and page user, I'd have to categorise these as a poorly referenced category page encompassing 1 good article, 2 moderate articles, a poor article, 2 highly contentious articles and 2 articles that barely even qualify as such. I can't say anything for certain on other areas, but this suggests that there is need for a widespread review of smaller articles for quality of content and references. At the very least the articles for Hiban and Heeb, Awdalland and Zeila and Lughaya State need major work done to them. ImperatordeElysium 13:46, 6 December 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by ImperatordeElysium (talk • contribs)

The Somaliland and Puntland articles have long since been cleaned up. Khatumo State uses a variety of sources, but most reliable, non-partisan sources on the state are in Somali, not in English. The latter also applies to Himan and Heeb, which is why it is a stub. The Awdalland administration was indeed largely formed by expatriates, as were most of federal Somalia's autonomous regions. It is likewise mainly covered in the Somali language media, with at least three websites exclusively devoted to news from the region. The Saylac and Lughaya State website is down, but an archive of it has a piece on the requirements to become President of Saylac & Lughaya state . It thus appears to be more of a project than an actual declared administration. Middayexpress (talk) 15:30, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

As another new user of Misplaced Pages, ImperatordeElysium's suggestion prompted me to conduct a quick review of Wiki articles with Somali-related subject matter, and my first impression is that a wide-ranging review has merit. In addition to some of the NPOV issues and dead links identified above, many articles are no longer up to date, and there exist a number of substantive and analytical inconsistencies. A few obvious problems I have encountered in a superficial review:

1. References to regional authorities in Somaliland and Puntland refer to clan affiliation; articles on Galmudug, Himan iyo Heeb, and Jubaland do not refer to clan dynamics
2. Maps do not always relate to text: i.e. the political map of Somaliland refers to political parties (in Somali) that are either not mentioned in the text, or are referred to only in English; the map of Galmudug appears to eclipse the existence of Himaan iyo Heeb, the subject of another Wiki article
3. The Khatumo article does not reflect the group's origins as the Sool, Sanaag Cayn Army, nor its recent combat with Puntland forces
4. The Jubaland article does not reflect political contestation with political leaders who seek (not for the first time) to establish a 'Southwestern Somalia State' based in Baidoa
5. Articles on piracy and illegal fishing omit widespread allegations of complicity by Somali leaders in both activities, including the sale of fishing licenses to foreign vessels
6. Historical references to Sayyid Mohamed Abdalla Hassan present a largely uncritical narrative of the Dervishes as an anti-colonial, nationalist force, without taking note of the often parochial and clan-based nature of the movement

The list could be much longer, and obviously requires those of us with some regional knowledge to make constructive corrections and edits, not just to comment on the talk page. But I would like to thank ImperatordeElysium for flagging the issue and presenting us with this challenge! HOA Monitor (talk) 14:55, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Interesting allusions there to a collective entity/"us". In any event, the points raised above were either trivial or already addressed, as demonstrated. Regarding the other points, it's already noted on the Khatumo page that it evolved out of HBM-SSC or Hoggaanka Badbaadada iyo Mideynta SSC. The piracy phenomenon is also largely over, and alleged complicity on the part of certain local authorities is already touched on on the main page. Additionally, it's noted on Southwestern Somalia that it is a defunct state that was officially dissolved after its leader Shatigadud had joined the government. There is, however, a federal convention presently underway in Baidoa to establish a new state in southwestern Somalia. This is not in Jubaland's constituent regions, but is instead to be based in the Bay and Bakool provinces. The Somaliland political map is, though, largely off-topic and inaccurate; it's been removed. As for Mohamed Abdullah Hassan, the preponderance of sources on him describe and his Dervish movement as indeed essentially nationalist and anti-colonial. That includes the Secretary to Administration in the former British Somaliland protectorate, Sir Douglas James Jardine, who wrote a biography on Hassan with the following crux: "Such was the ignominious end of the man who had defied and successfully eluded the British Government for more than one and twenty years, the indignity of a death from influenza contrasting strangely, almost uncannily, with the glamour of a life devoted to one great ambition. From a purely European point of view, he must be regarded as a romantic, but none the less consummate, scoundrel. In the hearts of his fellow countrymen, however, he will live for ever as a national hero for reasons that I propose to examine in the following chapter." Middayexpress (talk) 18:14, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

No offence intended, Midday: you are of course included in the term "us"! Please don't misunderstand: the Somalia Project talk page is obviously not the place for deliberations of substance or current events that relate to indivudal pages: I simply wish to endorse and reinforce ImperatordeElysium's observation that there is much room for improvement by presenting a small sample of factual, substantive, NPOV, and presentational problems that merit review. Obviously the place for this to happen should be on each individual page, and it would be advantageous were other editors and users with diverse points of view to accept Imperatorde's invitation. HOA Monitor (talk) 13:24, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

None taken. The fact remains, though, that most of the points raised were either non-issues or already addressed. Middayexpress (talk) 15:36, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

That's a matter of opinion, Midday, rather than fact. I am sure there is always room for improvement. HOA Monitor (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:44, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Actually, that's indeed fact. Middayexpress (talk) 15:09, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

As Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan so famously said: "Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts".HOA Monitor (talk) 14:18, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Cool quip, though not particularly relevant. Middayexpress (talk) 15:32, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Lets' review the "facts" one by one by one and if we can't reach perhaps, we can always seek some additional inputs.HOA Monitor (talk) 16:29, 25 December 2013 (UTC) HOA Monitor (talk)

That was already done above. Middayexpress (talk) 18:31, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Given the multifarious omissions, errors, and NPOV issues on many of the pages on the topic, it clearly needs to be done again.HOA Monitor (talk) 05:01, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Most of the alleged sticking points were actually trivial or already addressed. Middayexpress (talk) 14:10, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

No need to act so defensively, Midday. Several articles could still benefit from better sourcing, updating and NPOV. Since "no editor owns an article" in Misplaced Pages, this process is likely to be much smoother if you stop trying to act as a 'gatekeeper' for articles in which you have an interest. Let's keep this collaborative and collegial.HOA Monitor (talk) 16:12, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

You just registered this account the other day, and now you're lecturing me on website policy like a non-newbie. Sorry, but this (among other things) doesn't fly. Middayexpress (talk) 17:02, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Relax, Midday. Don't "bite the newbie". Remember: "Understand that newcomers are both necessary for and valuable to the community. By empowering newcomers, we can improve the diversity of knowledge, perspectives, and ideas on Misplaced Pages, thereby preserving its neutrality and integrity as a resource and ultimately increasing its value. In fact, it has been found that newcomers are responsible for adding the majority of lasting content to Misplaced Pages (i.e., substantive edits); while insiders and administrators are responsible for a large bulk of total edits, these often involve tweaking, reverting, and rearranging content."HOA Monitor (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:47, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

I'll give you the benefit of the (huge) doubt for now. Middayexpress (talk) 23:00, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Somaliland on Misplaced Pages

Interesting recent take on the presentation of Somaliland on Misplaced Pages, from one of the region's main advocacy sites: Somaliland: Misplaced Pages Recognizes the Nation as Sovereign. If that is their conclusion, there would appear to be some neutrality issues here that are being overlooked. Middayexpress (talk) 18:25, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

The Misplaced Pages Review has now picked up on it . Middayexpress (talk) 15:40, 23 December 2013 (UTC)