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Stern gang and Irgun

A couple of comments about the link that was added. For one, the text in the article claims that the Stern Gang wanted to side with Nazi Germany, while the link itself claims it was the Irgun that wanted to side with the Nazis. These were two separate organizations. The Stern Gang split from the Irgun over the question of whether to continue the struggle against Britain during World War II. The Irgun said that Nazi Germany was the common enemy and that, therefore, they should cooperate with Britain, while the Stern Gang wanted to continue the struggle against Britain.

As for the story as to what really happened (as I understand it)--There was considerable animosity between the two groups during World War II, and the Irgun decided to take some drastic measures against the Stern Gang. What they did was forge a letter from the German diplomatic attache to Damascus (Syria was then under Vichy rule), inviting the Stern Gang to negotiate with them. The Stern Gang believed the letter was genuine and sent a representative to Damascus. I do not recall if he actually made it and the German ambassador refused to see him (after all, the invitation was a forgery), or whether he never made it there (I think this is the correct version, but I will have to check).

My sources for this are a personal discussion I had several years ago exactly about this topic with Yitzhak Berman, a former commander of the Irgun (and later Minister of Justice, who resigned his post in opposition to the Lebanon War). Berman ran a British spy operations in the Balkans during World War II (mainly in Bulgaria and Romania). In other words, cooperation was such between the Irgun and the British that the British agreed to use them as spies in Europe. Berman claimed to also have been involved in the incident with the Stern Gang. I had been asked by an Italian company to present a draft translation of Berman's autobiography for possible publication in English. I do not know if it was ever published, but I think it was not. In any event, I asked him about the Stern Gang-Nazi link, and that is what he told me, expanding on a brief outline that appeared in his book. Personally, I trust his version of the story more than a website with blatant historical errors. Danny

I didn't hear about the forged letter of invitation before, but Stern certainly wrote to the Germans claiming an idealogical affinity and offering to fight in the war on the side of Germany. His letter is in the German archives and can be found (in its German original) in D. Yisraeli, The Palestine Problem in German Politics 1889-1945 (Bar Ilan University, 1974) 315-317. Stern's representative Naftali Lubenchik went to Beirut and met Otto von Hentig, a representative of the German Foreign Office (who recalled the meeting in his memoirs). J. Heller, The Stern Gang (Frank Cass, 1995) has a photo of von Hentig's covering letter added when he forwarded Stern's letter to the German embassy in Ankara. Stern tried to make contact with German officials again in Dec 1941. As far as I know, there was no substantial German response. Heller is a good source.

Concerning the "Irgun" versus "Stern Gang" question you raise concerning the letter, the confusion is resolved thus: when Stern broke away from the "Irgun Zvai Leumi" (National Military Organization) he named his new organization "Irgun Zvai Leumi be-Yisrael" (National Military Organization in Israel). This is the "Irgun" in his letter (probably he considered his faction to be the "real" Irgun). It was only after Stern's death that the name "Lohamei Herut Yisrael" (Fighters for the Freedom of Israel) was adopted.

Proposal to Germans: It is correct that the web site has a strong bias and should not be trusted. However, the actual documents that appear there are genuine. The source given for the original German version (D. Yisraeli, The Palestine Problem in German Politics 1889-1945 (Bar-Ilan University, 1974) 315-317) is genuine and seems to match the photocopy I made many years ago at the BIU library. The author quoted it from the German archives. Eldad wrote a book about it (but I haven't read it). Shamir also mentions it in his autobiography. It's also described in Encyclopedia Judaica. So the basic facts of the matter are not disputed, but of course the question of why it was done and whether it was a moral action in the circumstances is going to remain a hot potato forever. I added a solid reference (Heller). -- zero 12:07, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Bernadotte assassination

Bernadotte assassination: It is not true that Lehi never claimed responsibility for it. Israel Eldad admitted it on Israeli TV at the 30th anniversary (1978). Zetler and Markover talked about it on Israeli radio at the 40th anniversary (according to the NYT, 12 Sep 1988). You can find admissions reported in many history books (Bell, Bar Zohar, Ilan, Marton). By now there is nobody who denies it. As far as I know the only thing disputed is of who ordered it. Eldad and others said it was the three leaders together but Shamir denies that.

It's true that Lehi was officially dissolved by then, but in Jerusalem they were still organised and had their weapons. Dayan even mentions joint operations with them in his autobiography.

-- zero 12:07, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC) (UTC)

Wouldn't it be good to put the rival claims into the main document? ---- Charles Stewart 15:21, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The Bernadotte assassination is also listed on the Lehi web page. It is towards the end of http://www.lehi.org.il/h_idf.htm . It says that Lehi "saw Bernadotte as a tool in the service of British interests, and viewed his suggestions as a plan for dismantling Israel." -- zero 02:22, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Is there any justification for describing http://www.marxists.de/ as "a non-reliable source" ? - pir 09:06, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

That's a good question. Maybe the wording can be improved. That site is an activist site rather than an information site, so it has the same problems with bias and skewed viewpoint that activist sites often have. It is necessary to say something to prevent the wrong impression that only communist sources claim Lehi wrote to the Nazis. If you can suggest better wording, please do so. --Zero 12:12, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

What we always do, attribute claims, make PsOV clear and let readers make up their mind: "note: this is a link to an excerpt from a book by marxist Lenni Brenner, hosted by an anti-Zionist activist group ; it is not controversial that the letter from Lehi is genuine". At the moment it reads like the website is some kind of nutty conspiracy site involved in falsification of historical evidence that somehow left the Lehi letter intact. - pir 12:43, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Lehi vs NMO

We have a problem here. Lehi was a different group under different leadership after Stern's death so there needs to be a distiniction between its activities before and After Stern's death.

Guy Montag 05:07, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There is no such problem. Almost all historians treat the group led by Eldad, Yellin-Mor and Shamir as the same group as previously led by Stern. As the article says, it went into an eclipse then was resuscitated. Many of the members were the same. This was also the opinion of the "new" group. To this day, members of Lehi regard Stern to have been their founder (see www.lehi.org.il for a quick proof). None of this means that the "new" group was the same in all respects as the "old" group; after all, it had different leaders and circumstances had evolved. But we should follow common practice and treat them as the same group in different time periods. --Zero 13:19, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Another problem with your changes is the use of "NMO". It is the English acronym of Irgun Zvai Leumi which was the full name of the Irgun, so using it for Stern's group can only be confusing. Stern called his group Irgun Zvai Leumi be-Yisrael both to distinguish it from the Irgun and to hint that his group was the "real" Irgun. We could use something like NMOI to distinguish it, but I've never seen that. The alternative, which is what historians tend to do, is to call it "Lehi" all the time but add a note admitting the inaccuracy. I'll do that. --Zero 13:19, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ok. That is a good compromise.

Guy Montag 10:12, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup

Aside from the usual arguments about content, bias, etc., this article is poorly structured as it is now. I'll work on it in spare moments, but I thought I'd tag it in the meantime. --Leifern 13:20, 2005 Mar 24 (UTC)

Contact with the Nazis, etc.

I haven't made any edits, but I'm not sure that the absence of death camps is a valid excuse for what Lehi did - I don't accept it as an excuse for the British authorities' unwillingness to accept Jewish refugees, and there shouldn't be a double standard.

Having said this, the whole Lehi phenomenon needs further research. Clearly, it was an organization that embraced extreme measures, but the article doesn't explain what kind of strategy lay behind it all. For example: Did they really think that killing Folke Bernadotte or Lord Moyne would solve any problems, or were they just looking for a way to destabilize the situation? To me, they seem like a bunch of nutcases, but that only tells me I don't know enough about them. --Leifern 19:58, May 18, 2005 (UTC)

Alleged errors

I am removing to here some commentary inserted into the article by a new anon:

Here are some corrections to the text below that I got from an Israeli historian:

1. Leadership of Lehi was never shared among 3 people.
2. Israel Eldad was not a leader in Lehi; rather, he was the "top engineer" -- he organized and built the bombs.
3. Ytshak (Isaac) Shamir replaced Abraham ("Yair") Stern when Yair was killed by British soldiers. Later, Shamir was caught by the British and extradited, at which time he was replaced by Natan Yalin Mor. Note: Shamir later became prime minister of Israel.
4. Uri Tsvi Greenberg was a Jewish poet and a facist, but he was not really associated with Lehi in any way. On the other hand, Yair was himself a poet, and Lehi used his poems.
5. Aba Ahi-Meir was a leader of a street gang. He was not a writer, and thus it could not be that Lehi was guided by his writing. He was a friend of Yair, and at the same time he disliked Shamir. Later, when Lehi broke up, he lead one of the parts that broke away -- the facist sect that joined the "Herut" party (Menahem Begin's political party). The other parts that broke away from Lehi were collectively lead by Shamir and by Natan Yalin Mor. Later, this group itself broke into two parts, one that joined the "Kibbutz Meuhad" movement and the other joined the Likud party.

There are some true things in here but also some very doubtful things. We need more than an unnamed source to make changes, but on the other hand we can examine these issues to see if changes are warranted. In the following "Heller" refers to Joseph Heller's book "The Stern Gang: Ideology, Politics and Terror 1940-1949" (Frank Cass, 1995; previously published in Hebrew under the title Lehi).

• On the contrary, the 3 people names in the article were joint leaders of Lehi for a long period (approx 1944-1948). They were called the 'centre'. All major decisions were made by them together. In the earlier period it was more complicated. Shamir did not take over after Stern's death because he was already in prison and didn't get out for another 7 months (Sep 1942). Meanwhile Yehoshua Cohen (later the assassin of Bernadotte) was in charge but he did little. After escaping from prison, Shamir was the leader for a while, at least after he killed his rival Giladi. Friedman-Yellin was still in prison until Nov 1943, after which the afore-mentioned triumvirate was formed. That lasted until 1948. The article should have these details; I'll work on it.
• Yisrael Scheib (Eldad) was certainly not only a bomb-maker. He was the group's main ideologue from after Stern's death until the end. Like it says in Yisrael Eldad, "He was the movement’s foremost intellectual leader and edited its underground publications."
• Stern was killed by police, not soldiers.
• Abba Achimeir in fact wrote lots of things. Heller references many of them. It was Eldad who split away from Friedman-Yellin and Shamir, when the "Fighter's Party" disintegrated.
• Comments in the article about ideological roots should be revised. I've never been happy about them. The period of Soviet orientation should also be mentioned.

--Zero 11:16, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

terrorist group???

Lehi was a militant Zionist group, a liberation movement (like the Irgun)but NOT a terrorist group. You can read about the characteristics of terrorism, and see thar the "Lehi" wasn't a terrorist group. Please correct this mistake in order to prevent misunderstanding. Aybabtu 15:35, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

• Interesting. Utter revisionist arrogant crap, but interesting. A Zionist, by any chance? I don't give a damn what the Wiki article on terrorism says, but when you go out dressed as a civilian to commit acts of murder on - amongst others - innocent civilians in order to further your own political agenda which includes the formation of a single-race state at the exclusion of all others, including the native population, then you are a terrorist. Ever heard of Deir Yassin? Bernadotte? You can read about them here. So YOU are the mistake. Israel is the only country in the world which sees fit to lecture the rest of the world on terrorism yet treat its own terrorist groups and murderers as heros and legends, and elect them national leaders. Arafat cannot be a leader becuase he was a terrorist? So what about Begin? In Israel, terrorists are simply people who do not agree with their points of view. 80.6.30.24 11:37, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Poor civilians. Those Israeli soldiers barbarously killed them. May I remind you that these "civilians" weren't so innocent like you are saying. These so called civilians (and civilians from other villages near Jerusalem) prevented (tried to prevent) the pass of supply convoys to besieged Jerusalem. Even when doctors tried to get there they were attacked and killed in cold blood. You can read about it here. I heard about Deir Yassin massacre and read about it a lot, and I noticed that there is a disagreement between the Arabs and the Jews about what really happened there. The history shows that the Arabs are used to lie and exaggerate in order to accuse the Jews (bring you some examples or you are smart enough not ask?). Lehi and other Jews liberation movements didn't want to kill the Arabs, the Arabs wanted to kill the Jews so the Jews fought back. Begin is one of the most glorious people that Israel has ever had, and his movement is one of the main reasons that "GB" left Israel. Read more about his actions and you will see that these actions were ethical. Israel is the only country in the whole world that has to deal with Arab/Muslim terror even before she was officially declared, and still she treats them with kid gloves. You should see the other side POV and stop believing to anti Semitic teachers in schools. Exiled Palestinian by any chance?Aybabtu 12:21, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Terrorism: American definition - "The calculated use of violence or threat of violence to attain goals that are political, religious or ideological in nature...through intimidation, coercion or instilling fear." British definition - "Terrorism is the use, or threat, of action which is violent, damaging or disrupting, and is intended to influence the government or intimidate the public and is for the purpose of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause." So following the rule of universal application - "Act as if thy maxim were universal" - we find this applies to groups on both sides, hardly surprising. And if either one of you, or anyone else, plans on responding with crude abuse just save us both the effort and not type anything. LamontCranston 02:51, 23 January 2006

Holocaust Denial & Sourcing

While I regret having to link to a website that may have such a bias, it is in fact unimportant. What is there is text from a book that has been published, and is therefore acceptable indepedent research. If you feel that the research is flawed, you must disprove the author, and not the medium that has transmitted the information. Otherwise, deletion of such a reference is irresponsible. Avengerx 10:07, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry but you are clearly mistaken. With a source as unreliable and irreputable as the one you providede are not allowed to take their word for anything. Also, it is possible for a book to be inadmissable just as much as a website. Just being published is not enough to pass the litmus test. Do you think Mein Kampf would be citable? Of course not.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 13:19, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Your Mein Kampf reference has absolutely no analogue to this situation. Avengerx 00:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

You are suggesting that just because a book is published it is reliable enough to reference in an encyclopedia. I am showing that that is faulty logic, and really doesn't even make any sense.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 01:12, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Terror group

It is quite established by any reasonable yardstick that lehi was a terror group. I can believe I find my self on the same side as Homey but when he is right he is right. Zeq 10:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

see Misplaced Pages:Words to avoid#Terrorist, terrorism.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 23:24, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

We aren't calling Lehi a terrorist group; we're saying they've been accused on terrorism. WtA isn't applicable. CJCurrie 23:36, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

That clearly isn't the case. The category seems to be a not so subtle attempt at circumventing that policy. It clearly is not appropriate.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 00:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

There's currently a discussion to this effort on the Category talk page. You may want to take up your argument there, instead of here. CJCurrie 00:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not 100% sure whether the category is a good one. If anyone wants to go to vote for its deletion, go ahead with my blessing. One thing I do know is that, as long as this category exists, Lehi undeniably belongs in it. I don't see you removing Al Qaeda from the category. The only possible motive for wanting to remove Lehi is sympathy with this terrorist group, which is not a valid encyclopaedic reason. — Gulliver ✉ 05:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

You are clearly not assuming good faith. It is innappropriate to make accusations of malovalent motives, especially considering that I have twice removed a similar category from the Hamas article. The al qaeda article is not on my watchlist while Lehi is. Anyways, there is a clear difference between Lehi and Al Qaeda, Lehi's activities were based entirely around the establishment of a particular State, while Al qaeda's activities are not centered around a particular nation, but rather around a larger movement. I could understand the comparison to Hezbollah or even Hamas, but not Al Qaeda or Islamic Jihad.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 05:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with WP:FAITH. Misplaced Pages only has the right to make demands on what I do on this website, not on what I think or believe.

Whether you "understand the comparison" between X and Y is irrelevant. All the groups in the category are the same in that notable sources have accused them of terrorism. That is the only thing that matters. Neither does it matter what pages are on your watchlist. Demanding that any given group be removed from the category, but not the others, is not acceptable. It doesn't become acceptable if you claim good faith. — Gulliver ✉ 09:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I do not particularly think you are making much sense, I'm not going to look all over wikipedia to see what other articles this category been added to, I'm going to look on my watchlist and see a category that should not have been added, and then I will remove it. The reason I do not think the category should exist is because it basically seems like a copout, an attempt to include a label that is generally against policy and make it easy to do so.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 18:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

If your objection is to the category yourself then you should AFD the cat. As long as it stays, however, I don't see how you can reasonably argue that Lehi doesn't belong as they were accused of terrorism by "reliable sources" such as governments and there are few books on the history of Zionism (sympathetic or non) that don't refer to them as a terrorist group. Homey 21:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

"Without arguing that the category is legitamate or not, if we include articles like Lehi, it undoubtedly becomes meaningless"

Nonsense. Do you deny that the British, and for that matter the Yishuv leadership, considered Lehi to be a terrorist group or do you think "Stern gang" was an affectionate nickname?Homey 03:08, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

If Lehi described themselves as a terrorist group who are you to disagree?Homey 03:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

The fact that there is a policy that states we should avoid the word "terrorist" does. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, so its inclusion is always controversial. Why not just explain the accusation in a npov manner in the article's body instead of including a category that implies the accusation was not disputed.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 08:03, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

The fact that it is in the "accused" category instead of just Category:Terrorist organizations implies that the accusation was and is hotly disputed. In fact, are you suggesting that there is any accusation of terrorism that has ever not been disputed by someone or other?

Essentially, you are a Lehi supporter trying to make Lehi look as good as possible. Compare this with the situation with Al Qaeda. There, I am having a hard time keeping the article in Category:Organizations accused of terrorism, not because there is anyone wanting not to label the organization, but because everyone wants it in Category:Terrorist organizations! It's crazy. You partisans want your favourite terrorist organisations free of labels, and your enemies' organizations labelled as "terrorist". Since there are more Jewish and Christian people editing Misplaced Pages than Muslims, this means that some get the label, and others don't.

I'm afraid that this situation is not acceptable. Pro-terrorists are going to have to accept that we have an NPOV policy, and that all of these organizations will be categorised in a neutral manner. — Gulliver ✉ 08:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)