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Notes to self

--S. Rich

Pass rate analysis -- saved here as a MFR

Comment from Steeletrap re fringe category

Rich, I am concerned with your "shoot first, ask questions later" attitude. You accused me of imposing my view on economics by adding the "fringe" tag to LRC, when in fact this was WP:Con for years, and is based on the AIDS denial/vaccine denial that RS show are promoted by the website (not econ). Steeletrap (talk) 05:11, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. My reply is on your talk page. – S. Rich (talk) 05:21, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

FYI I've mentioned LRC on a thread regarding AIDS denial on the fringe noticeboard. (You were also pinged). Steeletrap (talk) 08:32, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. The ping came through. – S. Rich (talk) 15:58, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Inmate_parent

You seem to have misunderstood the WP:IC. Please revisit Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Inmate_parent.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:49, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

No problem. I simply removed because the stand-alone sentence did not have a footnote; and, a semi-colon tying in the next sentence for citation purposes might have worked better. But whether IC was followed at the end of the paragraph is, IMO, a less important issue. I think TOPIC as a concern/policy should be followed. E.g., why add the fact that his father is in the grey-bar hotel? There is a certain amount of sympathy, negativity, or other off-topic implication involved in posting the fact. Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 22:20, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Talk Page Harassment

Edit Warring on Rothbard

Loyd Little

A question was raised about using Misplaced Pages to sell my book. Not true. My novel has been out of print for nearly 20 years. Thank you. Loyd Little LittleHarryLoyd (talk) 15:04, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Understood. I did see it listed on Amazon with the old cover. Still, there is a problem with listing it. The whole listing in War novel, where you added it, is problematic & I removed the whole list. I may remove it from the SF article too. For more info, see WP:WTAF and WP:SELFCITE. Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 15:13, 14 November 2013 (UTC) I've tweaked the listing in the SF article. To keep it listed you need to get us a citation for the PEN award. Thanks young man.15:32, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Two mistakes.

1. WP:DTR.
2. Your unique but incorrect interpretation of WP:NPA is noted. If only you had been present when this occurred so that you could have reigned in your friend.

That's all. MilesMoney (talk) 06:07, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

You ain't no regular Miles. Don't kid yourself or others. You, again, fail to understand TPYES and you pollute discussions with snide, rude, unhelpful, smug, disruptive, etc. bullshit remarks. – S. Rich (talk) 06:11, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

The irony here is that dismissing others' remarks as "bullshit", which both you and Bink are prone to do, is itself a textbook example of WP:TE. In any case, unless you are officially required to use a template on my talk page, do not do so. In fact, unless you are officially required to comment on my talk page, do not do so. Consider yourself notified. MilesMoney (talk) 06:18, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Both of you- quit it already. Sick and tired of this BS- and, yes, your behavior is just that. You are acting like children.

S. Rich, you should have known better already, since FAR before Miles came along. Yes, Miles is... difficult (and I'll address him in a moment). But you have probably made more edits to your talk pages than Miles has period. (Don't quote me on that... I didn't actually look.) You are an experienced editor. The ANI and other discussions about both of you should have long since been enough. That goes for you too, Miles.

Miles, you have been a fog since you started. Citing policies you don't understand. When we correct you, you use them against us. S. Rich knows a lot about WP than the two of us combined (whether he cares to show it or not). He can teach you. You should respect him and all other editors. (Not just the ones that side with you in your little disputes.) Every discussion about you, every single one, has led to you escaping severe punishment by the skin of your teeth. Learn. Now. Or you will risk another topic ban or worse!

Both of you- you understand the policies. If you don't, I'd suggest reading them. This has gone too far and it isn't just affecting you two but every other editor who works on the same articles you do and much more importantly every reader of Misplaced Pages. You are becoming the reasons WP is not trusted. Please- I ask one more time- be respectful. Be courteous. You don't have to love each other. But, remember, if you can't say something nice, don't say ANYTHING at all! PrairieKid (talk) 07:16, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Western State

S. Rich,

Are you comfortable enough with Rhiannon's draft of Western State? She asked me to publish the article, but it appeared that you may have wanted to do more to the draft. Tell me what you think.--ɱ (talk) 21:14, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

You may have missed this message, so I am pinging it for you. I got the impression that Rhiannon wants to move forward with her work promptly.--ɱ (talk) 15:37, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Oh, gosh. I've got too many irons in the fire. I'll try for a look later today. – S. Rich (talk) 16:13, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi again, S. Rich, just wanted to check in here and see if you still wanted to take another look over the Western State draft. Don't worry, I'm in no hurry to move ahead, just want to make sure I don't miss any feedback if you're still planning on sharing more. Thanks, 16912 Rhiannon (Talk · COI) 20:04, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

I came, I saw, I edited. – S. Rich (talk) 20:32, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks so much, S. Rich! Appreciate you taking another look. I replaced the citation you flagged with the original link that had been used, to the National Law Journal piece. Just to explain: I'd replaced that in my draft since it's only available via subscription and the content on the blog was more easily accessible, but since you feel the blog should be replaced with a more authoritative source, I think the National Law Journal one is best. Thanks again, 16912 Rhiannon (Talk · COI) 18:58, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Categories in User Talk page and Reorganization of article

Thanks for pointing out issue with categories on my talk page, and for suggesting a fix. I have a question - are there any guidelines for reorganizing an existing article? I am working on the Institute for Justice page. The main issue is lack of good references. But I have also noticed that the article seems disorganized to me. Historical information is in several topics, information on activities is in several different topics, etc. As I find good references for information (and possibly add information), I would also like to move historical information into the History category, start a new Activities category with sub-sections for each activity type, etc. Should I just do it? Or should I put my plan on the Talk page for the article first? Or should I try to contact others who have edited the page? There doesn't seem to be a well established way to reorg existing information. Any advice appreciated, and thanks again. James Cage (talk) 13:56, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Be Bold, James, and Just Do It. I suggest you look at other articles for ideas and leads. One thing I'd remove is the listing of people. WP is WP:NOTDIRECTORY, so the non-notable staff and attorneys should go. You can keep the key people in the infobox and retitle the people section as "Notable IJ personnel", using the two people who have WP articles. The connections with other institutions can be referenced via institution webpages - like the UofC LS page must have something about the program. The listing of cases IJ has worked on is problematic. Lots of organizations file "amicus briefs" with the Supreme Court. In the cases you mention, did IJ represent the parties? If so, you might provide linked case citations. But that might get you into no original research territory. Have fun. – S. Rich (talk) 15:31, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your advice! I followed your suggestions, and the result is basically a rewrite. IJ litigated 5 cases at the Supreme Court, as well as the Vera Coking/Donald Trump case. If you have a moment, take a look. This is my 3rd article, so I'm still learning. Thanks & happy holidays! James Cage (talk) 17:11, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Fag listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Misplaced Pages:Fag. Since you had some involvement with the Misplaced Pages:Fag redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion (if you have not already done so). Fiddle Faddle 14:07, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Edit Warring on DiLorenzo

time to close another tiresome bit of nonsense
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement. Please be particularly aware, Misplaced Pages's policy on edit warring states: Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made; that is to say, editors are not automatically "entitled" to three reverts. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right. If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. Please stop. SPECIFICO talk 23:37, 22 November 2013 (UTC) Bullshit, Specifico. I restored the undue tag that Steeletrap improperly removed and I removed contentious BLP material, with an explanation on the talk page. Bullshit. – S. Rich (talk) 23:46, 22 November 2013 (UTC) Edit warring at Liberty University And again at -- this time in tag-team after it was quite clear the reverts needed to stop. No editor endorsed or supported your actions on talk. I'm particularly concerned that you appear to have followed User:Milesmoney there and hadn't previously touched this article in over two years. I am going to inquire as to whether your action falls under the Sanctions relating to Austrian School given your recent denigrations of MM and attempt to have him site-banned. Please take a breather and consider your patterns of interaction on WP. SPECIFICO talk 13:41, 23 November 2013 (UTC) More bullshit, Specifico, simply more bullshit. Three editors (the "tag-team") agree in their edit summaries and on the talk page that the material is inappropriate, so it is simply false for you to say "no editor endorsed or supported your actions on talk." Yes, I do look at the edits which you, Steeletrap, and MM make. And the three of you, I gather, look at mine. So go right ahead and make your inquiries. Make your reports. Do what you like, including the posting of bullshit on this page. I will label it as such when appropriate. – S. Rich (talk) 17:53, 23 November 2013 (UTC) Please familiarize yourself with the definition of "revert" in the context of 3RR On the talk page of User:Carolmooredc you wrote this. Your statement there appears to show that you do not understand {WP:3RR] and the definition at {WP:RV], which differentiates between "edits" and "reverts". I ask you to review those pages in order to avoid repetition of your unwarranted accusations in the future. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 16:52, 23 November 2013 (UTC) And I note that Carolmooredc has refuted your characterization of 3RR. – S. Rich (talk) 17:55, 23 November 2013 (UTC) As a matter of fact, she confirmed 5 reverts. Please read policy 3RR is a bright line test. Also note that rather than open a 3RR report, I have asked her politely to self-undo. SPECIFICO talk 18:03, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion declined: Actions speak louder than words

Hello Srich32977. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of Actions speak louder than words, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: It's a redirect to a Wiktionary entry. Thank you. Shirt58 (talk) 10:23, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

And I thank you! I am always happy to learn more about how the project works. The redirect to Wiktionary is new to me. – S. Rich (talk) 04:15, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Mont Pelerin

Thank you for your note. I happen to know that the people I categorized as Mont Pelerin members are indeed such, but I do understand the desire and indeed need for substantiation, which I'm unable in most cases to provide. I do however note that there is evidence online for Richard Stroup's membership: http://www.fraserinstitute.org/author.aspx?id=15300&txID=3202 Thank you for your help. Best regards, Tillander 04:11, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. I've added the info to Stroup's article. And please feel free to WP:DIY as you see fit for other articles. The MPS category removal was one step that I wanted to undertake with the hopes that interested editors such as yourself would followup on. – S. Rich (talk) 04:33, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your help, and I'll endeavor to be more proactive in the future. Also, I wonder whether I might ask your opinion: do you think there's a neutrality issue with my George Leef article? I'm not sure I understand the problem, but someone seems to think that there is.Tillander 04:46, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Temecula unsubstantiated revert

If you are to revert without solid rationale then you have done the entire community a disservice. Please note what was written on my talk page and provide for such rationale before making such changes. I will revert and we will try to collectively come up with a compromise. In order to not enter into an editing war, leave the page as is until you can provide for such rationale and also attend to the response left on my talk page. Thank you. J. Carbonell, Ed.D. Norcounty (talk) 17:17, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

I just noticed while looking at the revert that the descriptor for now should be placed within the economy section. I will do this while we discuss what constitutes promotional content. Thank you. Norcounty (talk) 17:24, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, discussion at Talk:Temecula, California may be helpful. In the meantime, Affluence in the United States might help in showing how the term "affluent" is difficult to pin down, and thus not useful for improving the article on Temecula. – S. Rich (talk) 18:06, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

DiLorenzo edit

Personal comments on Thomas Woods talkpage

Non-article talk page comments

@SPECIFICO: Here you are again, making comments about editor behavior which do absolutely nothing to further the discussion about article improvement. . You've commented about editors making such comments on article talk pages yourself – I'd hope you could pay heed to your own advice and follow WP:TPYES. Please notice the word focused in that advice. It pertains to improving the article, not taking jabs at anyone. – S. Rich (talk) 04:17, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

You're wrong, Sergeant. Carolmoore called a book review excerpt "ad hominem" when it was not ad hominem. That's a problem for the article, because it resulted in her making a bad edit decision based on her misunderstanding of ad hominem. Ironically, your comment above makes the same error. Do you understand the meaning of ad hominem? -- my remark was about her faulty rationale for her deletion of RS content from Masugi. SPECIFICO talk 04:24, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

At ease, Corporal. You used the term "you" and "your", and addressed CMDC directly 8 times in the remark. All-in-all, you did a lousy job of enlightening CMDC or anyone else. If you could discuss the editing rationale by using the third person, e.g., keeping the remarks focused on the rationale and not the editor, a lot of people would be happier. – S. Rich (talk) 04:55, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

I am a Conscientious objector I abhor violence. I'm severely jetlagged, and we'll be setting out at dawn, so you'll have to wait till tomorrow. SPECIFICO talk 05:00, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Sorry to hear about the jetlag. BTW, I think there is a good Thai restaurant somewhere in Wasilla – it's a great cure for jetlag. And mention me to Sarah or April if you see them. – S. Rich (talk) 05:07, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Templates at ANI

I know that you mean well but this has, I think, been pointed out to you by others on past occasions. Best not to stick {{resolved}} etc on boards such as ANI. Let the admins do what they do. You gain nothing personally by tagging as such and you risk the accusation of stifling discussion in a non-admin role when you are in fact involved in that discussion. - Sitush (talk) 01:54, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

I've reverted. – S. Rich (talk) 02:22, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Ta. Not everything needs to be signed off and these things can be touchy. You may be surprised what people bring up at ArbCom - been there, done that. Honestly, if a trip to ArbCom can be avoided then you should all do everything that you can to ensure that outcome. It is time-consuming, frustrating and in my opinion rarely ever "clean", ie: the fall-out can be considerable and unexpected. - Sitush (talk) 02:29, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. I wish NW had closed the discussion, especially after more comments were being posted. And I see that my template did not do much to "stifle" any discussion. Maybe the removal of the template will actually have the intended effect → that editors can move on to productive contributions! Thanks for the heads-up. – S. Rich (talk) 02:55, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Koch

Are you also working for Rubin? Or do you really want me to search for articles which link KI to the TPM? MilesMoney (talk) 22:03, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

I had no idea that Rubin was topic banned. No matter, the issue is whether there is WP:V for including TPM as a category. So if you want to search, go ahead. – S. Rich (talk) 22:08, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Done. You want to do the honors or shall I? MilesMoney (talk) 22:11, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

The Koch Brothers are supporting Tea Partiers, but the article does not say Koch Industries, the corporate entity, is contributing. – S. Rich (talk) 00:07, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

MM/S.Rich discussion

A beer for you! - Thanks for your help

I very much appreciated your feedback and I'm glad we were able to improve the article. Thanks again, 16912 Rhiannon (Talk · COI) 16:34, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Wow! (But so early in the morning?) Appreciated – I'll have to wait a while before I consume. Ping me for more reviews as needed, and please be patient if I don't get back as quickly as you like. – S. Rich (talk) 16:39, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

loved the edit summary

That last one. Fiddle Faddle 17:43, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Santa Clara Law logo

I'm quite new to editing on Misplaced Pages so forgive me if this is a newbie question. May I add the logo for Santa Clara Law? I see that other law school pages (Harvard, Vanderbilt, Stanford, etc.) all have their logos included on their page. It would be nice if the page for Santa Clara Law had the same. The logo is located here: http://law.scu.edu/wp-content/themes/responsive-child/images/scu-law-badge.png.

Also, I am a librarian at Santa Clara Law. Is it inappropriate for me to correct references or is that also considered a conflict of interest?

Thanks,

Davidbrianholt (talk) 02:31, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, one of the first things to do is declare your COI. (At that point I'll remove the COI template from the article heading.) Next, look at Talk:Western_State_College_of_Law_at_Argosy_University#Proposed_update where a COI editor has presented proposals for article editing. You will see that I have helped him along. (A lot of discussion and advice has been exchanged.) As for the logo, you must load it into the "Commons". But that entails permission from the copyright holder. (It is an area that I have limited knowledge.) Please be advised that "paid editing" has been a hot topic on WP lately. So I advise you to read up on the rules. – S. Rich (talk) 02:48, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll do that. Also, the logo for the high tech journal used on the page is no longer used.

Davidbrianholt (talk) 03:16, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

I have permission from our dean of external relations to use the logo. Is that sufficient?

Librarian at Santa Clara Law 03:30, 4 December 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Davidbrianholt (talk • contribs)

I don't know. Try posting a {{helpme}} template on your talk page. And resolve the COI declaration! – S. Rich (talk) 03:38, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

I thought putting my "COI" in the signature was recommended. Sorry for being such a newbie but what else am I supposed to do? Thanks!

David Holt - Law Librarian at Santa Clara Law (talk) 03:53, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

As I read WP:COIDEC, you create your user page that says "I'm David Holt, librarian at SCL." And you "identify the articles related to your COI and confirm your intention to follow the conflict of interest guideline." At that point your signature is modified to reflect the COI declaration. – S. Rich (talk) 04:02, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Is this right? Thanks!

User:davidbrianholt 04:26, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

ANI discussion involving you

I wanted to alert you to an on-going discussion at Admin's Noticeboard/Incidents. You are one of five editors to issue a behavior warning to MilesMoney. --HectorMoffet (talk) 09:25, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Invitation

Hey SRich, I hope all is well with you. As you have been one of the regular editors participating in articles related to Austrian Economics, and I was hoping I could convince you to participate in a small experiment on dispute resolution. It's formatted as a simple question and answer, with a hint of RfC/U, aimed at getting participants to talk with one another, recognize potential problems, and with any luck, commit to fixing those problems. The page is at User:Adjwilley/Austrian_economics and you are free to edit at your leisure. ~Adjwilley (talk) 00:19, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. What is your time-line for the experiment? At present I'm engaged in some other on & off wiki projects. I'd like to defer on replying for a few days. – S. Rich (talk) 16:11, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

There's no rush. Take all the time you need. ~Adjwilley (talk) 18:06, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Encyclopedia of Libertarianism

Please don't add this source as a reference unless actually used to source a fact in the article, and also since it is a specialized encyclopedia it is not generally useful for articles that are not directly related to its focus, namely libertarianism. I have removed the source from a number of articles where it was not a relevant source, and where it was not used to support specific facts. Adding sources is of course helpful - but it can look like spamming or promotion of a specific book when added in this way across articles where it has only a tangential relation to the topic.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 03:12, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Maunus, WP:FURTHER is the MOS we follow. I will post justifications on the talk pages. Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 03:26, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

I have mentioned this issue at Misplaced Pages:External_links/Noticeboard#Encyclopedia_of_Libertarianism.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 03:28, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

WP:Further states that it is for references that " that would help interested readers learn more about the article subject." In all of the cases where I have removed it the wikipedia article contains considerable more information than the corresponding entry in the Encyclopedia of Libertarianism. It is simply not a relevant further reading.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 03:30, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

I'll reply on the noticeboard. Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 03:36, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Which talk page for Dark Money?

When you said see talk on dark money, which talk page was this? Hcobb (talk) 19:50, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Presently editing. – S. Rich (talk) 19:51, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

User talk:Adjwilley/Austrian economics

Jeez! – . At least one editor thinks I posted a "perfectly legitimate query".
My response is less moderated – . – S. Rich (talk) 18:45, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Another comment related to Adjwilley's user talk page

Rather than torpedo the discussion set up by Adjwilley, I will post my reaction to Specifico's latest comment here:

The question is: "In your opinion, what could this user could do better that would help resolve the dispute? " Comment by User:SPECIFICO. "Carol should be topic-banned for at least six months..... 'blah - blah - blah'"

My reaction: What an outrageous posting! Just appalling!! Completely against the spirit in which Adjwilley set up this discussion. Proposing a topic ban has absolutely no fucking relevance or helpfulness as to how Carolmooredc herself might better resolve the dispute! This is just another example of how Specifico abuses the discussion process – he criticizes others when article talk page comments veer off-course, and posts the same fucking garbage himself on the article talk pages. (For more BS, see earlier comments by me WRT Specifico.) And then he has the gall to post this stuff.... – S. Rich (talk) 06:52, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Don't worry, it will be refactored or moved to the talk page. (See my recent comments...) ~Adjwilley (talk) 07:03, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Noting that Specifico has modified (but not retracted) his remarks, I will hat this subsection. – S. Rich (talk) 16:09, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Noting further that Specifico continues to modify his remarks, I am un-hatting this subsection. His "should be topic-banned" statement now says she should "stay away ... for six months...." I also note that Specifico was "incredibly offended" by an "obscene photograph" she posted last summer. So what? Don't look at her userpage (or at this talk page for that matter) and you won't be offended. After all, the decision to look, read, and be offended is yours. At the same time, Specifico, why don't you supply the diffs – you're a fine one for making accusations, unsupported by evidence. Need an example? Look here: User talk:Gamaliel/Archive 19#Murphy . – S. Rich (talk) 17:18, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

ANI discussion that might be of interest to you

See WP:ANI#User:Wran – continued disruption - your attempts to explain policy didn't make any difference. Dougweller (talk) 19:06, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

• Hey S. Rich, you're a big shot in real life and on-wiki! Isn't it time to run for admin, so that Dougweller and I can leave some of the dirty work to you? Drmies (talk) 18:47, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Sounds a good idea to me! Dougweller (talk) 19:12, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Gosh, you guys are pulling my leg. I'm simply successful enough to enjoy my freedom and free time. (I'm not such a big shot.) Besides, I have some enemies who'd fight tooth & nail against a nomination. "Dirty work"? I feel like I'm being invited to join WWE RAW. Thank you both. Many thanks! – S. Rich (talk) 19:18, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

You and Sitush should run together. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:21, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Too much! Look at my talk page archives and see the stuff that editors have said about me. There is more at User talk:Adjwilley/Austrian economics & User:Adjwilley/Austrian economics. I think I'll make a Shermanesque statement and take that stupid userbox off my userpage. (Again, thanks. I am greatly encouraged by all of this.) – S. Rich (talk) 19:28, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

You're a judge, ain't you? Can't you just lock your opponents, and all of Sitush's caste-warring friends, in the jailhouse while your RfAs are going on? Or, Writ Keeper, rename their accounts for the duration of the RfAs. Drmies (talk) 19:28, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

NOT a judge. A "Judge Advocate" is a term of art for a military attorney. (Although, in civilian life, I have sat a volunteer judge pro tem. Which is no big deal. Lots of people do so.) – S. Rich (talk) 19:35, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

I'd love to be a judge. Pity you have to go to school for it. Confusing terminology: next thing you're going to tell me that a justice of the peace does not enforce peace, or that the water board doesn't waterboard anyone. Have a great day, Austrian-style or otherwise, Drmies (talk) 16:45, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

LOL (on waterboarding!) But you are judging. The facts are the edits we see, the law is WP guidelines & policy. A lawyer looks at the facts and seeks to spot and analyze the issues so that the correct law can be applied – or argued to the judge, who then decides. An admin is, as I see the role, another sort of judge. – S. Rich (talk) 16:54, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

... and a case that may be of interest to you

"Thanks for the laugh", you said, and "A lawyer looks at the facts and seeks to spot and analyze the issues", you also showed some interest in infoboxes ;) - Look at this (shortened a bit, and by now I can laugh):

User A adds an infobox to his own article.

User B reverts it.

User A improves it and returns it.

User B reverts it.

User C restores it.

User B collapses it at the end of the article.

User D restores it uncollapsed in the normal position.

A lawyer arbitrator says one user needs to be banned. Guess who? (help, only if you need it) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:18, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

No guesses. 1. There is no indication of BRD. 2. "His own article" – you mean A is a connected contributor? (More likely, you mean an article A created.) 3. No indication of 3RR/1RR posting. 4. No indication of other dispute resolution. 5, Don't know anything about the experience levels of A–E. 6. Maybe the article is under sanctions. 7. There are always anomalies. I prefer to work with "Just the facts, ma'am", so I won't guess. Thanks for an interesting puzzle. – S. Rich (talk) 01:01, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for thinking, sure, no guesses ;) - 1) I also thought there was no BRD. - 2) "his own article" is (admittedly too) short for "an article he created", taking "created" in the literal sense of making the first edit in mainspace. - 3) There was no 3RR. - 4) There was other dispute resolution. - 5) All four editors are here for quite a long time, A 2009, B 2006 (and admin), C 2008, D 2003 (and yes, the one to be banned, puzzling indeed), no E. - 6) no sanctions - 7) no anomalies. - The facts are linked under help: we are talking about the Planyavsky case - you may remember, the first link in the all-too-long discussion pictured on the Johnbod page. Independent view without passion welcome ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:58, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

• and an article that may be of interest to you, but perhaps you saw it already on the Main page, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:12, 15 December 2013 (UTC)|

Some suggestions

Banning you from my page several months ago was a misstep (which, for the record, I officially *revoke*), because you are a good-faith peer from whom there is much to learn. But even if the ban was wrongheaded, it is nonetheless disturbing that you basically ignored it (and bans imposed by others, including carol and specifico) to comment whenever you please. Your criticisms, while sometimes useful, are over-the-top both in tone and quantity. And you tend to believe that your interpretation of policy *needs* to be heard, as forcefully as possible, at every given moment. This need to be heard comes at the cost of civility or even policy itself (e.g. the rule to respect other users' wishes regarding whether to stay off their talk pages).

You are clearly an intelligent person who is passionate about the principles of the community. Moreover, you are relatively adept at weeding out your biases in your contributions to articles, and I have often accepted your criticisms of in that regard. However, your 'alpha male' persona tends to facilitate a heavy-handedness that disrespects the boundaries of other users. That is why, for the record, I would hesitate to support you for admin (despite the fact that you have many qualities ideal for that post). I fear investing you with all that power would magnify your 'dark side' and disregard for the perspectives of other users. (Please note that by "disregard" I don't mean disrespectfulness or personal attacks. What I mean is heavy-handedness, overconfidence, and rigidness.) Steeletrap (talk) 21:48, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

I endorse this statement, Ms. Steele, and I admire your nurturing instinct. I hope you will not take that as a misogynist remark but as a token of my recognition for your God-given character.

@Srich, I believe that with some restraint and the discipline which you clearly must have deployed on the front lines in Iraq, you can step back from the battleground behavior which is out of place here on WP. This Project needs more editors who have your time and dedication to improvement. Your clean-up efforts on references and formatting are invaluable. But, I would certainly take a step back and dial down the energy level on advising/mentoring others and on any actions in which others might feel that you are appropriating undue authority to yourself. The Admin thing will come in due time if you work on your skills and interactions rather than focusing on any sort of campaigning or base-building for your candidacy. I hope you will consider a mid-course correction and that you will continue to devote your efforts so tirelessly, but a bit more selflessly, to WP. SPECIFICO talk 22:03, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

The comments and suggestions are appreciated. A few replies: I appreciate the revocation – it seems that the talkpage comments I posted had come to be accepted without objection. I recognize I can be brusk – sometimes it's appropriate, sometimes not. If there are diffs that explain where I've been wrong – in any manner – on policy, I'd be happy to see them. Moving on, you might note above that 3 experienced editors/admins recently invited be to apply for adminship. (They want me to lend a hand in the dirty work, so perhaps they see that bruskness is an asset on occasions.) And I've received off-wiki endorsements from a few other experienced admins. I've been reluctant because the application process can be less than enjoyable. (See: User:Giggy/Passing RfA for fun and profit! and other commentary for background.) Well, with the different on & off wiki endorsements, I think I can achieve the status. But I do not want (past) enemies opposing me because of old friction. I won't ask for endorsements from you or other editors in the AE struggle, but I do ask that you defer on opposition. In any event, I can promise that WP:INVOLVED will be followed in all cases – if I receive the position. In the long term, I expect to edit until I hit 100,000 edits and then retire. So please let me do me include some admin work in my next 39,000 edits. Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 01:00, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Srich, with all respect and best wishes, I think you may have misunderstood my writing above. I see you as a viable Admin if you are able to purge your demons and develop a more community-centered stance, with more engagement and listening to other editors here. That would be a challenge, but I think you may well be able to pull it off. Given your current style and record to date, I think it would be very problematic for you to take on and be empowered with the Admin's role. In fact it could be downright harmful to WP. I'm sure it would all come out in the RfA process, but frankly it would be better not to pursue premature escalation and to develop a more impersonal and impartial style and record for an extended demonstration that you've got what it takes. A good start might be to join Steeletrap and myself in setting forth the pledge and new discussions that have been mooted at Adjwilley's AE talk page. Sorry if I wasn't clear the first time. SPECIFICO talk 01:10, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Rich, I wish your response would focus on my substantive suggestions to improve our WP interactions. I understand that the admin thing caught your interest, but it is peripheral at best to the original post. Steeletrap (talk) 01:33, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

I see that Steeletrap is much more able than I to express herself succinctly. Srich, I interact with you because I am trying to improve various articles on WP. My point was simply that the same behavior which makes you unsuitable to be an Admin is the behavior which disrupts the editing of those articles. However I believe that if you focus on changing that behavior and help improve the articles, you may also develop into a fine Admin candidate, possibly before 2014 runs its course. SPECIFICO talk 01:57, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

An interesting dilemma may be developing. The group (or individuals) takes "the negative pledge". I RfA. Does the negative pledge "no statements about contributors" thereby preclude pledgers from making negative comments about me in the RfA process? – S. Rich (talk) 02:42, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Srich, think of the Admin slot as a kind of Knighthood. Did Sir Elton John lobby the Court? Or maybe Sainthood. Just pursue righteousness and the recognition may follow. You again appear to be considering which strategies might effectively help you navigate WP for your personal goals, but that is exactly the behavior that has made your editing ineffective (aside from routine repair work) and that will also undermine your Admin ambitions. The RfA is one place where WP most definitely does delve into the history of nominees' personal attitudes, actions and abilities, and rightly so. SPECIFICO talk 03:06, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

It is true that RfAs result in a review of editing history, etc. But the decision to add commentary in an RfA lies with the individuals. I would think "the pledge" would have the effect of prohibiting one editor from denigrating another, including that forum. You know, perhaps I should have gone for the job back in July. You might have even nominated me back then. (You can do so now if you like. Simply say I am a wise one and that more Deputy Sheriffs in the admin world are needed.) I certainly understand that friction between us since July may have changed your mind. But I do not think my interactions outside of our AE circle has changed significantly. What is interesting, personally, is that the 3 administrators in the section above want me to apply, if only so that I can take over some of the dirty work. (With that in mind, my sometimes brusk demeanor and commentary may be the virtue that they think is valuable.) And, there are other admins who have done some off-wiki recruiting of me. If you and the other AE "members" will take the pledge, you will free me to go on to other taskings and areas of interest. – S. Rich (talk) 03:29, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

I think you're missing the point. The reason for us to agree not to make comments about each other is so that we can stick to comments about content disputes and therefore make some progress. This has nothing to do with remaining silent if you try to run for admin. That's just not going to happen. MilesMoney (talk) 03:45, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

MilesMoney, I do not think you would refrain from making negative comments about me in an AfD. But I would be pleasantly surprised if you did refrain. So whenever the AfD occurs, you would be free to participate as you wish. IMO, if you do take the negative pledge, you'd have to be concerned about what other pledgees thought about making negative comments outside of the AE discussion forums; e.g., whether on talk pages, user talk pages, notice boards, or AfD discussions. Moreover, once I enter the AfD process, I think my participation in the AE forums/contentions will diminish. – S. Rich (talk) 04:39, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Srich, I would not be doing you any kindness to soften what I'm about to say: Your're not wise, Wiki-wise. In fact, you are frequently wrong about policy and its application, and when others point out your errors you become hostile and defensive. You don't listen very well and you appear to be preoccupied with strategies for your personal advancement rather than article improvement. The AE page discussions' sole purpose is to improve the content and conformity of the articles according to site policy. The RfA page discussions is to discuss everything which might be relevant to your performance in a role which requires various skills you have not yet demonstrated here. It would be not only our option, but our obligation, to discuss all of your personal qualities, qualifications, and behavior there. My advice to you is to consult with the on-wiki or secret admirers you cite, have them review your talk and article contributions, and get some frank feedback as to how you can improve your profile before any prospective RfA. SPECIFICO talk 04:43, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Specifico, while there's much we disagree about, this isn't any of it. I have to admit that you're spot on here. For myself, I wouldn't waste time commenting about Rich, I'd just post some of the links I've collected. They would speak for themselves, saying pretty much what you just did.

Rich, to be quite frank, my take on these admins recruiting you is that they're using you. A classic trick in corporate politics is to promote an incompetent so that they remain loyal to you. See, on the one hand, their incompetence means that they depend upon you to defend them from complaints about their incompetence. On the other, it prevents them from doing their jobs so well as to make you look bad, much less striking off on their own. Even better, you get to look like an even-tempered peacekeeper as you defend your crony. For extra credit, you promote the incompetent at the expense of a potential rival, who is then forced to report to the incompetent. Priceless.

It's cruel, but this sort of thing happens all the time in the real world, and I'm afraid it's happening to you right now. I'm genuinely sorry. MilesMoney (talk) 04:55, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Specifico, please provide diffs where you think I've been wrong on policy or when others have correctly pointed out my errors. That way I might learn. But you intend to hold off on posting the diffs until I submit my AfD, you'd be doing the community a disservice. That is, it is better to "disqualify" me now before the community spends time & energy analyzing my history. Specifico, if the negative pledge does not extend across the board, beyond the AE discussion forum set up by Adjwilley, then it cannot mean much. MilesMoney, please feel free to assist Specifico in the assemblage of the diffs. IOW, post the links you've collected either here or on the ANI. (That is, if you have collected them.) And, MM, you might follow your own advice and not waste time commenting about me. Finally, MM, I will pitch my tent with the admins who have publicly and privately endorsed me. They have passed through the AfD gauntlet; I do not perceive any effort to trick me; and I'm a big boy and can handle myself. – S. Rich (talk) 05:21, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Srich, to whet your whistle, just go back and read all my messages here which you've summarily called cowpies, then hatted or dismissed. I'm not going to provide you the index of those and others except in a context which offers a constructive end for you or for the Project. What are some of the greatest hits? Well, of course I could post some piecemeal, but let's not get the cart before the donkey. No need to fuel your resentment.

From your writing above, however, here's one to chew on. You write: "Specifico, if the negative pledge does not extend across the board, beyond the AE discussion forum set up by Adjwilley, then it cannot mean much." Much of this thread is devoted by me and others to explaining that your statement misses the point. I think it's explained clearly enough for a litigator/warrior to understand, so it feels to me like willful obstinacy. Finally, consider whether it's a Freudian Slip (no I won't be cute and wikilink it) that you repeatedly call the RfA your "AfD". It doesn't have to feel like a Swan Song (again, no wikilink) and it doesn't have to be a battle. But "to everything there is a season" -- (but again: no wikilink) and a reason. Food for thought. Adios amigo. SPECIFICO talk 15:10, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Srich, here is another suggestion I can offer without getting into the larger litany of issues: You wrote to User:MilesMoney "MilesMoney, please feel free to assist Specifico in the assemblage of the diffs..." @Srich: In context, many readers would take that as a command, sarcastically delivered. In fact, its tone is identical to some of the posts for which I have criticized MilesMoney and which, to his credit, he's greatly moderated and reduced over the past few months. So, please consider reviewing Miles' development as an editor on WP. While none of us is perfect or even as good as we'd like, Miles does offer you proof of concept which shows that you, too can improve your behavior in this respect. Finally, this thread was not directed toward your contemplated Admin candidacy and how to wiggle and jiggle the ropes. This thread was begun in the hope you could become a more productive contributor to WP and expand your scope of work beyond the helpful housekeeping and patrolling activities on which you've racked up thousands of edits. Edit count is important to the Project, but it takes much broader interpersonal skills to collaborate on complex and controversial content. If you can Kick it up a notch! in constructive interpersonal communications next year, you'll have a great shot at reaching your Admin goal before you hit 100,000. Good luck. SPECIFICO talk 16:16, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Specifico, you've repeatedly made comments about my not knowing, applying policy (or guidelines). On this page (above) you said:

• "bone up on relevant policy" (x2)
• "Once again, you're writing English words and citing WP policies without regard to their meanings, or, in the case of the policies, even whether they exist."
• "...I suggest you read the WP policy regarding forum shopping and wikilawyering"
• "...I urge you to re-read and study key policies, which you have repeatedly misunderstood or misapplied recently."
• "By the interpretation of policy you propose here... Take this to the appropriate Noticeboard if you believe that this is the meaning of WP policy ..."
• "You apparently have no trouble convincing yourself of these convoluted interpretations of policy,..."
• "I am repeatedly surprised by your displays of basic lapses in your familiarity with WP policies and conventions."

Knowing about policies and guidelines is key to any administrator. With this in mind, I'd like to see exactly how I have erred. You have mentioned that diffs exist, so I invite you to post specific examples.

So here is a user subpage for you (and others) to work with: User:Srich32977/SPECIFICO's listing of policy errors by S. Rich. It contains a table where diffs, analysis, etc. can be added. Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 17:45, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

@SPECIFICO: in this remark you did not address MM's behavior or possible sanctions. No matter what, I hardly expected MM to support my candidacy. There is no reason for me to restrict myself before I have admin privileges. (Afterwards is an entirely different matter.) MM has been a disruptive editor from the get-go, and, you in many ways, such as with the off-topic remark you made, have encouraged that behavior. Moreover, as you have supported MM, don't you have a conflict of interest? Even if you did, you would be free to comment on the proposed sanction. (BTW, I await your posting of policy error diffs on the subpage I started.) – S. Rich (talk) 05:27, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

PS: Specifico and MM, I promise to keep the table available when it comes time to comment on my application for admin. I will welcome comments from you both. (In fact, produce a WP:TLDR version of the table!) Same holds true for you, Steeletrap. And thanks for the heads-up on AfD/RfA. – S. Rich (talk) 07:31, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

The obvious implication here is that, if you succeed in getting rid of me, I won't be around to post those damaging, embarrassing diffs which show that you're unsuited for the role of admin. You have a COI. MilesMoney (talk) 05:29, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

MM, you are working against your own self-interest. When I am an admin, my monitoring or commenting on your behavior will diminish. (And I certainly would not take admin action with regard to you.) Also, I realize you are busy now defending against the possible BLP ban. But a such a ban would not restrict you from posting the damaging, embarrassing diffs. Please have at it. If you like, I'll post a subpage with the same table for your usage. – S. Rich (talk) 05:37, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Formal mediation has been requested

The Mediation Committee has received a request for formal mediation of the dispute relating to "Austrian economics". As an editor concerned in this dispute, you are invited to participate in the mediation. Mediation is a voluntary process which resolves a dispute over article content by facilitation, consensus-building, and compromise among the involved editors. After reviewing the request page, the formal mediation policy, and the guide to formal mediation, please indicate in the "party agreement" section whether you agree to participate. Because requests must be responded to by the Mediation Committee within seven days, please respond to the request by 22 December 2013.

Discussion relating to the mediation request is welcome at the case talk page. Thank you.
Message delivered by MediationBot (talk) on behalf of the Mediation Committee. 18:47, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for bolding

Sorry for that. It seemed like a simple format error. Capitalismojo (talk) 04:30, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Not at all. I was simply downplaying the expression of my opinion. The diff I provided actually speaks for itself. – S. Rich (talk) 17:33, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

6 January

Well, since there won't be anything exciting on TV that afternoon, I suppose I'll be getting ready for spring training to prevent the repetition of certain unfortunate event. Hint: I'm practicing kicking field goals, to see if I can get at least one out of four. Drmies (talk) 16:27, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

gun control rfc

As you were involved in a previous discussion on this topic, I am notifying you of a new RFC on this topic. Talk:Gun_control#Authoritarianism_and_gun_control_RFCGaijin42 (talk) 16:31, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Actually I don't recall making much or any commentary on the topic. But I wish you well in your effort to expand the discussion with editors who have all sorts of views. – S. Rich (talk) 17:29, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

You !voted in the previous RFC, which is why I notified you here. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:31, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

I'll take your word for it. I just don't recall. But thanks for checking, the headsup, and the note re my earlier involvement. – S. Rich (talk) 03:29, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Notability, group awards, and Tuskegee Airmen

S.Rich: I have begun changing the language of the Tuskegee Airmen articles that I have worked on to state that the Congressional Medal of Honor was given to the group as a whole. If it is known if the person in question was in attendance at the public ceremony where the medal was presented, I include that information. But I make it clear that the award is not being given to the person per se but to the group en toto. Hopefully, that will avoid any confusion about whether that award establishes notability or not. I am working to establish notability on other grounds. Cheers. Stevenmg (talk) 00:33, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I see that the enabling statute named various individuals, and such mention is worthy in their articles. (I have not cross-checked the statute with any articles.) As UCR has material on the TA, I see your interest – so I'm here to help, both with individual articles and with the overall project. – S. Rich (talk) 01:30, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Re the MilesMoney ANI

@SPECIFICO: WRT your question here, I don't think I shall answer. One, to do so on that thread would needlessly distract (and disrupt) from the subject at hand. Two, if editors, including yourself, wish to open an ANI regarding other users, they can do do. Then diffs pertaining to that other editor can be laid out. (As it is, the MM thread already has too much distraction.) In such cases, I will comment when I think I have some small helpful points to add. Please let me know when or if you open an ANI regarding persons of interest. Thank you. – S. Rich (talk) 03:51, 18 December 2013 (UTC) BTW, thank you for the complement on the correction.03:54, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, in light of the comments of many other editors on the circumstances of that ANI and the behavior of other editors, and because your behavior continues to raise the appearance of a conflict of incentives, I thought it would be helpful for you to make a complete statement there. But no matter, entirely your choice of course. SPECIFICO talk 04:00, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

A complete statement? About MilesMoney? About other editors as well?! I dare not. (Such commentary – on that ANI – could be disruptive.) Moreover, my behavior in that thread or elsewhere is a topic of another discussion. You are welcome to post diffs about my behavior wherever you like. I've provided a draft table for the policy issues that you think I've violated. Shall I post one for my uncivil remarks too? Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 04:12, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

I am disappointed by your response. On the ANI thread, many of your fellow editors have commented or recommended sanctions on other editors, in addition to or instead of, MilesMoney. Your comment singles out MilesMoney, against whom you have a history of ill regard, and fails to address the others. This has the unfortunate appearance that you are focused solely on MilesMoney rather than the promotion of good behavior and the Five Pillars on WP. In my opinion, the place for such comments would have been the ANI, where others have already contributed their larger concerns for WP. SPECIFICO talk 15:15, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

You should not be disappointed so easily and perhaps it stems from prejudice against me. Numerous editors have commented about MM alone, and some of them have had on-going or occasional interaction with MM. Are you disappointed by their responses? How about the editors without prior interaction with MM? Are you posting comments on any other user talk pages suggesting that they don't promote good behavior or the 5Ps? The efforts to argue the merits of particular edits (as opposed to pointing out the diffs) or the merits and demerits of other editors only disrupts the discussion, which is about MM and the alternatives to promote decent behavior. – S. Rich (talk) 16:14, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Srich, it was you who sidetracked this to your talk page. SPECIFICO talk 16:24, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Your commentary about my behavior or anyone else's behavior is best placed on user talk pages. Not on the ANI. So you are correct, I did "sidetrack" an inappropriate thread. – S. Rich (talk) 16:30, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Time to chill, soldier. Merry Xmas. SPECIFICO talk 17:30, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Milton Friedman

Actually, the original comment about the Federal Reserve was mine, I was just signing it properly. That was the only change made to the actual comment.

Your change results in a deletion of the entire comment instead of reverting back to an incorrect signature. Disestablishmentarianism 07:29, 18 December 2013 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mixoplic (talk • contribs)

@Mixoplic: your username is Mixoplic. Your user signature looks like User:Mixoplic. When you add a non-Wiki markup word, like Disestablishmentarianism, it looks like vandalism. For more information, see WP:USERNAME and WP:SIGNATURES. Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 16:26, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Please check your understanding of 'fringe'

Your failure to understand what the term 'fringe' or 'fringe theory' means, as evidenced by your attempts to differentiate "heterodox" (the politically correct term for 'fringe') theory from fringe, systematically undermines your attempts to contribute to the AE articles.

Note the Misplaced Pages definition of fringe theory: "an idea or a collection of ideas that departs significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view. It can include work done to the appropriate level of scholarship in a field of study but only supported by a minority of practitioners, to more dubious work." I also recommend you consult an online dictionary. Steeletrap (talk) 19:44, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I do not fail to understand fringe. You mention the WP article about fringe theory; but WP:FRINGE is another matter. The non-WP definition, as you quote, can include "work done to the appropriate level of scholarship...". When there is an appropriate level of scholarship, the theory falls outside of WP:FRINGE. But it seems that editors are adding their personal evaluation when they say "fringe" because they want to use the "more dubious work" end of the spectrum (and therefore, by implication, within WP:FRINGE]]. Read on ... "Dismissing a theory based solely, or in part, on a fringe characterization may deviate from the spirit of the scientific approach and may limit new advances and insights." If you believe the Austrians or others are "fringe" in the WP guideline sense of the word, bring up those concerns on the WP:FTN, and do so with evidence. Otherwise the use of "fringe" in talk page discussions is simply a deviation from the spirit of the scientific approach. Moreover, much of the debate we see simply involves political and/or economic philosophy. One could say "the theory of total state control, which we see exercised by Big Brother (Nineteen Eighty-Four), is clearly fringe because it is outside of the mainstream view, and therefore has no place in Misplaced Pages". No. We do not do that. We allow for and encourage articles about all aspects of philosophy and science. Thank you for your comment and suggestions. And please feel free to respond. – S. Rich (talk) 20:14, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

It's nice to hear you endorse "the spirit of the scientific approach", but the defining characteristic of this branch of economics is that it rejects the scientific approach. This is precisely what makes it fringe. Our job is to keep fringe views out of general articles and identify views as fringe when they show up in such places as biographies. MilesMoney (talk) 20:51, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, I'm glad you think this is nice to read the rest of the introductory paragraph to the fringe science article. But it seems that many areas of study do not accept or use the scientific approach. History, art, politics, literature, (more or less) among them. And certainly those fields have many academics who work "outside the mainstream." And I can see how well science is developed and applied as I read various articles mentioned in Outline of economics, Index of economics articles, and JEL classification codes. But I just can't find that Science of economics article or where economics is mentioned in scientific method. I wonder – if science is not well grounded or laid out as a "defining characteristic" in any economics article, then perhaps every economics article should be excluded from Misplaced Pages. What do you think? – S. Rich (talk) 23:59, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I won't use the c-word that upsets you so terribly, Srich, but I really think that you're ill equipped to be editing these articles except in your Helpful Housekeeping mode. That last post is way off the edge, and to think that you would insinuate such ruminations into any aspect of WP is apalling. 00:50, 20 December 2013 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by SPECIFICO (talk • contribs)

I'm tempted to rant about humanities and sciences, including soft sciences. I'll spare you, because I'm not convinced I can explain it clearly enough that you'd understand. Still, if you wanted to do some independent research, you might benefit from it. If anything, it might be helpful if you did this before making too many more edits on the subject. MilesMoney (talk) 02:36, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

"C-word"? Not being used, I couldn't become upset. And I doubt I'd get upset even if the actual word was used. But I'll speculate: canard? carrot? combat? cunt? cedar? confused? conjugate? counterconditioning? Well, I guess I'm not a very good ruminator. Still, Specifico, you needn't be too appalled. You actually know I am quite competent. – S. Rich (talk) 03:00, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

@MilesMoney: Actually, Miles, feel free to rant on this usertalk page. I might hat the rant, but I won't remove it. I'm guessing you'd say something like "soft social sciences are bullshit because they dress up their analysis with untestable hypothesis .... yet present it as true science." (But this is just a rough paraphrase of what I think you might say. I do not want to presume or put words in your mouth.) Still, I don't know what you mean by "the subject". Do you mean economics as (or is) a science? Well, if that is the case and if the Austrians are saying "We don't think science (what is mistakenly described as empirical evidence) applies to economics", then what's the beef about the Austrians? Like I said, English majors admit the humanities are not "science" subjects, but that does not make their subject "fringe" simply because it does not involve science. For that matter, no soft science (or protoscience topic) should be dismissed as "fringe". It only sounds like "I don't like it, therefore it's fringe." Or "In my opinion (e.g., we don't have RS) it is fringe, therefore we must keep it out of WP." – S. Rich (talk) 04:50, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Right, the field of English is in the humanities. While it's in no way anti-scientific, it's also not a science. It has relationships with some branches of science, such as linguistics, but is still a distinct field. Economics, on the other hand, is not in the humanities; it's a social science. It's not a hard science, like physics, because it has to deal with us soft, squishy humans, but it's as much a science as sociology or psychology.

It's not unusual for legitimate sciences, especially soft ones, to nonetheless harbor factions that are unscientific. For example, psychology has the Freudians, whose beliefs were never empirically supported and have since been empirically refuted, yet have not been abandoned. In economics, the Misean Austrians are actually worse than the Freudians because their anti-scientific views are explicit. They're proud of not caring about the evidence, and this makes them fringe within the field. Ironically, Misean views are common among libertarians and other conservatives, much as other fringe beliefs -- such as climate change denialism and evolution denialism -- are. MilesMoney (talk) 05:12, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Miles, this is the nicest comment you've made in my recollection (limited as it is). Sincerely, I agree with you in many respects. The Freudians once had the explanation about dreams, ego, id, etc. and we still use Freudian terminology every day. And I think the Miseans, as you contend, take pride in their "not caring" about data (as compared to evidence) – they are simply being honest. But that does not make them fringe – any more than the humanities proponents who "don't care" about "scientific evidence". (Jeez, permit me to comment without much precision in this thread. It's getting late. The humanities crowd use scientific analysis in many aspects, but they don't describe their disciplines as science. If the Austrians say they don't care about the "data", then let them stew in their own pots spurning the data.) Where do we (you, I, and others) differ? The conservatives have their motives and this tends (compels) to skew their views as to climate change because they see government regulations as unnecessary or 'obstructions' to prosperity. (Who is correct depends on POV.) In the long run we will see if one side or the other is correct. Moving on, denial of evolution is a silly debate because it is strictly a religion bug-a-bear. I don't think libertarians give a shit one way or the other. (They are, I believe, concerned when a government agency promotes a view in this area. So?......) In any event, our task in Misplaced Pages is to strive to present the material to readers in a non-POV-pushing manner. (And when you see me pushing POV in these areas (as opposed to presenting), please let me know.) Thanks for your comments. – S. Rich (talk) 06:22, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that economics is a science, so any faction that doesn't want to be scientific doesn't get to call itself economics. Consider Intelligent Design, which claims to be part of biology but rejects the scientific method. Ultimately, it's up to the mainstream of the field to decide what counts as fringe. MilesMoney (talk) 18:38, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

I think the analogy between the creationists and Austrians is a poor one. The creationists dress up their argument with sciencey terminology. The embrace the cloak of science and become Category:Pseudoscience. The Wikipedian way to approach their nonsense is illustrated in Intelligent design – the result is a featured article no less. If we could write up the Austrians to such a standard, we'd really accomplish something. Even better would be a writeup of Economics as a science. I agree that economics studies goods and services, their production and distribution. But why are there so many schools of economics, so many economic systems, so much debate about economic measurement, etc? (Is Marxian economics part of mainstream economics? Is it science? Is it fringe?) Good hard science knows how to get to the Moon, about the chemistry of rocket fuel, what happens to humans biologically in space, etc. Science observes, classifies data, uses logic, conducts experiments, forms hypothesis, makes predictions, achieves confirmation, and expresses findings mathematically. At present, though, I think econ is more in the protoscience realm because of the difficulties it has when trying to do these things. And it seems the Austrians are even more proto than the mainstream because they focus more on human behavior when they look at methodological individualism, subjective theory of value, etc. Are they right? Are the mainstreamers right? Frankly, I'm skeptical of all of them. But I think the debates will advance by expanding our knowledge of the subjects and the articles which discuss them. Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 19:54, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Srich, you have 2 problems, the combination of which is insurmountable: 1. You don't know what you're talking about. 2. You have no clue that you don't know what you're talking about. You may be knowledgeable or expert in some fields of knowledge, but like hundreds of millions of other delightful human beings on our planet, you are utterly ignorant on some subjects. Such is the human condition.

If you wish to participate in good faith, go to the library and research the extensive literature on the methodology and application of social science and economics. It will take time and effort. It is not light reading and you'll need to branch out into all the real-world issues that gave rise to the methodological and operationsl framework of economic science. Read a history of economic thought such as Schumpeter or Blaug have written. Follow all their references. See whether you're able to assimilate what they present. It's not OK for you to turn this collaborative WP enterprise into a dance around the maypole of your ignorance. That's really not what WP is about. SPECIFICO talk 20:30, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

It's my recognition of the value of expertise that encourages me to put up with your patronizing attitude. You're insufferable, but you're right and I've learned more about Austrian economics from reading your comments than from all of my education in the field. So when you point at reliable sources showing that the Miseans are fringe, I don't just blow them off like Rich does. MilesMoney (talk) 23:07, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

With such remarks in mind, I might post this on my userpage:

This user is a mediocre+ Editor.

– S. Rich (talk) 05:56, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Tip on policy

You (and this applies to User:Binksternet and User:carolmooredc as well) appear to completely misunderstand WP:Academic. Cursory mention in half a dozen RS does not come close to establishing notability; you have to demonstrate that an individual has substantively influenced mainstream dialogue. I suggest that instead of a swift and cursory Googling session (which in the case of Bink, often leads to pretty egregious errors, e.g. citing an undergraduate's paper as an RS), you both read sources to see what they say about a scholar's influence. As to how to test whether a scholar meets WP:Academic notability standards, User:Randykitty puts this better than I could on the Thornton AfD page. Steeletrap (talk) 16:30, 21 December 2013 (UTC) To illustrate the point: By your and bink's standard, virtually all academics would have Misplaced Pages entries (including me, which is absurd at this stage of my career), because everyone with a (non-professional) graduate degree has to publish in journals. Steeletrap (talk) 16:59, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Talkback

If you have a chance, please take a look at the subsection part of my response. I'm interested, either way, in your input re: non-notable, genealogy based articles.

(For instance, I learned in the last couple of months that small residential farming villages where the only sources I could find were PinCode (postal code in India) web pages, are considered notable.) Thanks!!! CaroleHenson (talk) 18:26, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

"Disruptive" talk page comment?

Hey @SPECIFICO: why do you accuse me of disruptive editing in this comment? Steeletrap from the get-go talked about Presley editing her own article. Look at WP:COISELF and you might see how COI comments in the AfD are pertinent. "Strawman" argument? Are you saying my mention of COI is strawman, or my description of it as old is strawman? I'm not "denying" COI, so you are mischaracterizing my argument. I merely said the COI issue doesn't mean shit because it is long past and can be (or is) resolved by subsequent edits. Moreover, editors can write WP:ABOUTSELF so long as they follow guidelines. Why don't you do the right thing, Specifico, and strike your unwarranted and offensive comment? Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 19:11, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Note, Presley created her own article. Steeletrap (talk) 19:27, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes. But my comments here are about how Specifico is bad-mouthing me. – S. Rich (talk) 19:30, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Because you are misrepresenting my statements, your words constitute a Personal Attack. You'd be well advised to strike yourself. Noted, with no further action for now. SPECIFICO talk 19:51, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

I didn't say anything about you, Specifico. I refer to your comments, in which you say my contribution is disruptive. NO misrepresentation of your comments took place. (Describe such misrepresentation if you can.) Address the issue of COI as an argument for COI. I don't think you have anything. – S. Rich (talk) 20:06, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Laffs

Srich, with all your WP:LINKs I hope you enjoy the chuckle from your visit to Sitush's page. Having seen you deny it so many times, I'd guessed you had on at least one occasion read the page. SPECIFICO talk 20:25, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

veering of SPI on Steeletrap

I presented what I considered a cogent and coherent case with several diffs and a lot of data. Rschen asked for more evidence, which I provided. Steeletrap has been interesting in how he handles this -- I suppose he figures if the water got muddy enough that the case would die. Alas -- I think the data is more than ample for a real examination. A close at this point, IMO, is a disservice to the data and diffs presented. Cheers. Collect (talk) 18:21, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Of all the editors involved, you are focusing on the evidence better than the others. But as I stated, I don't think they are socks, based on my interactions and observations. While I don't think meatpuppet recruiting has taken place, the 2005 Arbcom decision referenced in WP:MEAT might apply. I say "might" because this is an area in which I have no experience. My recent posting on the SPI page was more of an effort to get people focused on evidence rather than the expanding (and muddying) commentary. Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 18:43, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

citation bot's number to issue bug

Hi, Srich32977. This is just a heads-up about the number to issue bug of citation bot, which I filed in response to your edit to Fahrenheit 451 back on 14 November 2013. I had intended to inform you of the issue at the time but it slipped my mind. Sorry for that. The "number" parameter in cite templates should not be changed to "issue". That's the crux of the matter. Please prevent the bot from making these changes in the future. Cheers, Jason Quinn (talk) 01:22, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Jason. I'm guessing your holiday shopping is over and you're now making progress on the WP to-do list. And I see an interesting {{Diff}} template in your message. It may be helpful to me in the future. So I think it will be an even better gift than the 451 bot bug fix. Have a great holiday. – S. Rich (talk) 03:30, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

CIR

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on WP:CIR. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Please be particularly aware, Misplaced Pages's policy on edit warring states:

1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made; that is to say, editors are not automatically "entitled" to three reverts.
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing.
Please stop. The irony is unbearable.
SPECIFICO talk 00:55, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Competence? In this edit you revert a change made 11 months ago. And when I posted the change, I fixed a clarified needed tag. More importantly, I opened a talk page thread. A dozen other editors made changes to the essay in a score of edits. Seems none of them thought my change was not in the spirit of the essay. And what about the 98 editors who are watching the page? But you, Specifico, missed that. Rather, you have the gall to say "Please use talk." Well, if talk was so important where did you open a thread? It wasn't until Steeletrap made the proposal that you spoke up. And then you simply criticize other comments without suggesting any improvement. Next you revert the edit, well before any consensus is made, and add an edit summary about a non-existent "consensus". Indeed. Did you learn this tactic from a cohort? Given that certain editors are prone to cite "competence" in their discussions (when the citation clearly does not apply) it seems promoting "intellectual" competence (or is it intelligence?) is an effort to backdoor some ummpf into otherwise lousy justifications for their "I have a BM degree, I'm more competent than you." arguments. Can't bear the irony? No one is forcing you to sign on or go through my edit history. – S. Rich (talk) 04:33, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

What's this about your BM? The fact is that you were EW and then Mr. Binks followed your example. It's not good form to change the essay in a way which might suggest to future editors that you were trying to avoid being tested by the standard you changed. That's why you should not have re-inserted your preferred version. Now, please consider restoring the revert so and discussion will go forward. SPECIFICO talk 05:11, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

That was interesting

I find it intensely interesting that Miles, suspected to be a sock of StillStanding-247, has just been busted using an open proxy server. Think we can interest a CU into looking at that? Roccodrift (talk) 07:23, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

I have no idea if CU would be helpful. Frankly, I don't wish to be engaged in such a pursuit. Miles had said s/he was in North York in the past, which I accepted at face value. And this is one/another reason I do not think Miles and Steeletrap are socks. SPI is an area in which I know less than nothing. You'll have to ask others if a CU is worthwhile. – S. Rich (talk) 07:29, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Hey Srich -- Look! -- You seem to be the go-to guy when it's time to mount another PA or stalk and harass young Miles. Why do you suppose editors see you as a likely recruit for that brand of mischief? So unfair. Food for thought. SPECIFICO talk 14:14, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

PA? On who? Miles? But your use of "or" can be read in the disjunctive implying PA on someone else? Either way, give me some diffs Specifico. Better yet, take them to the ANI. ("Hey, LOOK everybody! S.Rich has posted a listing of Miles' diffs. Rich is conducting a WP:NPA#WHATIS!!") Stalk Miles? Miles' spends over 80% of his/her time on the talk pages. It's not difficult to find Miles' comments, and my ANI listing only covered the last 50 edits. Why don't you come out on the ANI and say on the ANI that Miles' behavior is commendable? But as Collect pointed out, Miles posted 29 times on the Rasmussen page alone. (Updates: 30 times + a "snarky" personal remark on the BLPN.) Harass poor Miles? I really think the attention is relished. Drama Queen comes to mind. Another? That word can be read different ways. "Another" as in a new set of observations unrelated to an ongoing discussion, or "another" as in adding to the diffs, observations, complaints, remarks already going on. Either way the diffs of Miles' postings amply illustrate the need for action. – S. Rich (talk) 15:42, 27 December 2013 (UTC)15:57, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Of course, "action" here is just a euphemism for "execution". You have voted over and over again in favor of getting rid of me. You have cluttered ANI with out-of-context quotes and diffs intended only to poison the well. Whenever the discussion loses its focus on removing me, you're there to put it back on track. There is no question here about what your goals are. You are WP:STALKING me. MilesMoney (talk) 15:51, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

At first, it looked like Miles was being force-fed some military-style mentoring, but when Miles had enough of the wet-nurse treatment, things changed forever. SPECIFICO talk 16:11, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for reminding me that Rich tried to force-mentor me when I started, but turned against me when I developed a mind of my own. Now the student has become the master. MilesMoney (talk) 16:18, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

WP:OUTING

This is unacceptable. Do not repeat your performance or I will report you. MilesMoney (talk) 16:40, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Your recent edits to ANI

Hello Srich, I have just suppressed a number of edits to ANI based on an action you took, and I wanted to explain more clearly to you that our harassment policy forbids publishing personal or identifying information about other editors unless they have voluntarily provided it. This provision includes re-posting information you find through slip-ups of the other editor. If you see someone make a mistake and then correct it, you should assume that the mistake was unintentional and therefore it does not give you leave to re-publish. In fact, under pretty much no circumstances should you be re-publishing what you feel is another editors IP or physical location without that person's explicit permission. I understand that you seem to have socking concerns, but if your evidence includes information on the person's IP or location, the case will need to be dealt with privately, by contacting either the Checkuser team (most easily reached at functionaries-en@lists.wikimedia.org) or the Arbitration Committee (arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org) with whatever information you feel is relevant. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 16:50, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

@Fluffernutter: No problem. The diff you refer to was probably a mistake, but was voluntary in that sense. Early on in the editor's history, they said/complained that their ISP had caused them problems and specified their location. Also, I do not think the editor is a sock, and have said so. The info which was mistakenly posted actually serves to confirm the non-sock status. In any event, I certainly accept, and will heed, your admonition. Thank you. – S. Rich (talk) 17:10, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

It wasn't a mistake. Your edit comment insisted that I wasn't allowed to edit your words, which turns out to be false in this case. You knowingly restored information that violates my privacy. I am not satisfied. MilesMoney (talk) 17:15, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Miles, the mistake I refer to is your post on the ANI when logged off. Early on you had told the community about your ISP and where you are located, so no private info was posted. I apologize for restoring the IP number to my edit. – S. Rich (talk) 17:33, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

In light of the fact that Srich's ongoing animosity toward MilesMoney is an extension of Srich's aggressive editing and denigration of Miles at various Austrian Economics articles, I urge any Admins who sees this to consider what sanction should be levied against Srich for this despicable violation of WP policy. SPECIFICO talk 17:40, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Rich, your excuses are dishonest. I live in one of the largest cities in North America, so my privacy is not impaired by mentioning the city. My IP, on the other hand, could be used to uniquely trace me, and has already been suggested as a way to get me blocked from Misplaced Pages. You knew why I removed the IP from your response, yet you edit-warred to put it back! I am not satisfied with your excuses. I support Specifico's suggestion that your actions be taken seriously. MilesMoney (talk) 17:48, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Miles, Misplaced Pages cannot be broken, and Flutternutter has taken steps to fix the mistakes -- yours and mine. Flutternutter also suppressed the welcome message I posted on that IP user talk page. She did so at my request. I'm sorry you are not satisfied. What would satisfy you? Another apology?? Here: MilesMoney, I was wrong when I repeated the IP address you had posted after your listing of talk page, usertalk page, ANI comments, and BLPN comments. – S. Rich (talk) 18:17, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Your edit comment makes it clear that it wasn't a mistake, it was intentional. Backtracking now adds a lie on top of your original attempt to WP:OUT me. MilesMoney (talk) 18:49, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Srich, I think most readers will, like me, be insulted and disgusted at your obstinate insistance that your personal attack on Miles was a "mistake." SPECIFICO talk 18:56, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

To think that only a week ago, Srich was promoting himself for Admin of WP! What a spectacle. SPECIFICO talk 18:57, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Again, Miles, "mistake" refers to the mistake you made when you posted the comment via your IP address. (I thought I had made that clear above.) I am not saying I made a mistake. My actions were, as you say, intentional. But I've stricken the plurality in my comment above to make clear that I am simply referring to your IP revelation as your mistake. There is no lying at all. In any event the "mistake" you made – posting your IP – has been suppressed, whitewashed, covered up. And I've apologized for the "wrong" I inflicted upon you. You can continue to lick your wounds in public, or you can accept the apology I've offered. It's up to you. – S. Rich (talk) 19:03, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

I didn't make a mistake: I was logged in. Misplaced Pages is buggy. Regardless, it was wrong for you to repeat that IP in your response and more wrong to revert it back when I sanitized it. Neither of these were accidental; they were bad judgment, so bad that they violate WP:OUTING. An apology that blames me for things outside of my control is not an apology. An apology that treats your intentional behavior as accidental is not an apology. I am quick to accept genuine apologies, but this does not qualify. MilesMoney (talk) 19:10, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation of the log-in snafu. Perhaps you can report it somewhere in WP and have the techs fix the bug. If this is a frequent problem for you, try using the preview button. What else would you like me to say? – S. Rich (talk) 19:20, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

We're done. And there's no particular reason to defend yourself here, as I stated that the matter was settled. MilesMoney (talk) 21:08, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

I mean it

When I say you guys do not deserve any respect at all, you carry on like kids, this is what you get. Next step is AE, and this goes for all the people I know watching this page. Grow up, learn to discuss, or I will file an AE on all of you quite happily. Darkness Shines (talk) 19:24, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Whew! I'm glad my name is not in that section you archived. And my earlier December comment (in the other section you closed) was an effort to herd the cats. Perhaps your more forceful archiving will work. Here's hoping!! – S. Rich (talk) 19:36, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

While I thought "more forceful" would be helpful, I think you are going over the top with the policing. IMO, the tone and flurry of remarks is counter-productive. Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 21:40, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

MM ANI

BLP applies to talk pages

WP:BLP applies to any Misplaced Pages page. Adding redlinked names of real people in that list, even as a talk page suggestion, is improper. Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 17:13, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

I am aware of that, but do not understand how you are applying it. Please state that basis of your standpoint. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 17:19, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

@Scalhotrod: Adding redlinked names (or non-linked names) of real persons and saying they are pornstars violates BLP policy, pure & simple. If they are pornstars, we need WP:RS to verify it. This includes the talkpages, noticeboards, and our own user pages & sandboxes. (Also see WP:WTAF.) Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 17:29, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand your fear, in this matter. I'm in the process (as in right now) of adding a reference for each name. A simple Google search brings up several for each that confirms that a person with that name/stage name is a pornographic actor. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 17:40, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

It is not a matter of fear. It's Misplaced Pages policy. If you want to draft a list and workup references, you ought to do so off-wiki. But list of names of real people must have RS. And on the subject of porn, the RS is even more important. Also, IMDb is not considered RS. Regarding the names, I'll give one example: C. Nguyen is a real estate agent in Michigan. Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 17:58, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

IMDb is acceptable for basic info like since its fact checked by paid staff before its made live. But I'll use IAFD.com if it makes you feel better. By the way, the fact that there is another person on the planet with the same name as a porn actor is irrelevant. You're making far, far too many assumptions to make a valid case for censoring a Talk page. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 18:07, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Here's a good essay about IMDb: Misplaced Pages:Citing IMDb. I have no opinion re IAFD. Overall, though, WTAF is the better course of action. Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 18:13, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

"Good" or not, its editorial opinion, hence why its an Essay. The same goes for WP:WTAF. If you're going to quote BLP, please leave the Essays out of it. In the meantime I'll cite this policy. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 18:32, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, essays are not policy. They do reflect good advice. But more importantly, please do note what the not censored policy says: "Content that is judged to violate Misplaced Pages's biographies of living persons policy, or that violates other Misplaced Pages policies (especially neutral point of view) or the laws of the U.S. state of Virginia where Misplaced Pages's main servers are hosted, will also be removed." I've got no objection to articles about porn or porn stars. Nor do I object to porn itself. I will object to adding non-notable and unsourced names to the pornstar galaxy. Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 18:40, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, and you can't (or won't) cite what the nature of the violation is regarding BLP. Furthermore, just because someone does not have an article on Misplaced Pages that does not automatically make them non-notable. It just means they don't have an article. As for sources, IAFD.com has nearly all of them listed. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 18:52, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

A person's association with porn is created by listing a name on a page where the subject is porn. If the person is a notable porn star, then fine. The WP:REDLINK guideline encourages us to write the article first. That way, because the article about the noted porn star is supported by RS, we do not violate BLP. But the BLP problem arises when we put names in a list without RS. This is not a question of censorship. BLP requires us to follow a higher standard. Instead of infringing on BLP, the solution is simple. Develop the lists and potential articles off-wiki. Then add the developed, sourced article to WP and add the bluelink name to the list. – S. Rich (talk) 19:47, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

No, no, NO! A person's association with porn relies entirely on their having acted in a pornographic movie or video, PERIOD. What happens in the real world takes precedence. If there's an RS that confirms their involvement in the Adult Industry, then they can be mentioned. Notability, which is separate from the fact the person "is" or "is not" involved in porn, determines if they get an article in the main space. You don't get to misunderstand or blur the distinction between policies to push your POV. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 20:56, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

It looks like you are aware of the BLPN notice. In that case, please state your case on the noticeboard. I am not pushing any POV. I am against the censorship of porn, and I am against BLP violations. So, no more posts from you that fail to assume good faith on my part on this page. Thank you. – S. Rich (talk) 21:03, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

This problem has arisen repeatedly in various talk threads with you Srich. It's a fine line and nobody can tell whether you're good-faith unable to understand policy or whether you're tendentiously pushing a false application of policy. In this case it's unclear which one it might be. SPECIFICO talk 21:51, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

In this case SRich32977 is absolutely correct about BLP policy and its application to redlinked names of people who may or may not be porn stars. Having one's name falsely associated with pornographic productions can do real harm to a living person, and thus the redlinks must stay out until consensus can be achieved to keep them. alanyst 22:49, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

It's always hard to understand what Srich is asserting, because he does not quote policy with specific reference to the matter at hand, but why does the redlink or blacklink status enter into the BLP issue? One may be verifiably a porn actor without being wiki-notable or having an article here. SPECIFICO talk 22:59, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

What immediately undermines Rich's argument is that nobody is making a list of the real names of people and then saying they're porn actors. Rather, it's a list of "professional" names; the pseudonyms used by performers precisely because they don't want the stigma to affect their family and friends. Each name is like Long Dong Silver, not Daniel Arthur Mead. Combined with the fact that the names are extracted from reliable porn-industry sources, the idea that BLP is being violated becomes laughable.

The other issue is Rich's behavior here, which shows poor communication skills, little grasp of policy, and a willingness to join up with ideological allies (Wolf) to tag-team editors who are just trying to be helpful. Shameful. MilesMoney (talk) 23:07, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

The vitriol directed toward SRich by you and SPECIFICO is over the top and serves only to perpetuate the ongoing disruptive feud, so please knock it off. If the names really are stage names for which there is little real risk of mis-identification with a real, living, and totally different person, then it should be possible to gain consensus for the links' inclusion. But BLP requires caution about such things, and SRich was perfectly justified in removing the redlinks on grounds of BLP in case mis-identification was a real risk; and the burden is properly on those wishing to include them to make a persuasive argument that the merits of having those names in the list outweigh the likelihood of unintended harm. alanyst 23:23, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Caution is fine, tag-teaming an editor who's just trying to improve the encyclopedia is not. It's this sort of hostility that damages the project by scaring off reasonable people who just don't want to deal with the constant aggression. As for my "vitriol", I believe you're missing some of the context. Scroll up and open the hat. MilesMoney (talk) 23:37, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

If Specifico or MilesMoney really think that I have misquoted, misconstrued, misapplied, or mis-anything with regard to the BLPN I initiated, I invite them to post on that thread. They should explain why and how I am wrong. They should also explain why and how the other contributors to that thread, that article talkpage, and other forums are incorrect. – S. Rich (talk) 23:31, 29 December 2013 (UTC) I note that both have posted. Thank you. Now we shall see how the BLPN plays out. 23:36, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

@Alanyst: - Hi. No vitriol from me, just pointing out that it obstructs discussion and collegial resolution of various issues when Srich refuses to explain how his interpretations of policy support the arguments he so tenaciously presents. Since you recognize that, per Scalhotrod's statements of fact, it should be easy to resolve this, it is puzzling to find you in the position of defending his behavior after his arguments have been debunked. SPECIFICO talk 00:05, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Request for mediation rejected

The request for formal mediation concerning Austrian economics, to which you were listed as a party, has been declined. To read an explanation by the Mediation Committee for the rejection of this request, see the mediation request page, which will be deleted by an administrator after a reasonable time. Please direct questions relating to this request to the Chairman of the Committee, or to the mailing list. For more information on forms of dispute resolution, other than formal mediation, that are available, see Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution.

For the Mediation Committee, Sunray (talk) 05:43, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
(Delivered by MediationBot, on behalf of the Mediation Committee.)

Fecklessness

United States Army Rangers

Hello:

You left an OR tag on United States Army Rangers. Please leave a note on the talk page specifying what you are referring to so editors can address it. If it is simply a general observation summarizing the section tags about lack of references, please just briefly note that. Thanks for your time and interest. Airborne84 (talk) 19:08, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

@Airborne84: I'll be going back myself to look at the dates established. Please note the recent changes. (Perhaps OR was not the right tag, but it simply came to mind at the moment.) – S. Rich (talk) 19:24, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Specifico's comment on Miles' talk page

Rather than clutter MilesMoney's talkpage with more commentary, I'll make two observations here: 1. Whether or not I have an interest in RfA doesn't matter much to that discussion. Miles got himself banned for his own contentious behavior. 2. This edit is interesting. – S. Rich (talk) 20:11, 5 January 2014 (UTC)20:51, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

There's nothing in that message of mine to indicate that I have any knowledge as to Miles intention, nor to which editors he might communicate his concerns about you, nor what the recipients of such communication might do in the event of such hypothetical communication. Your mention of my name in the context of what appears to be your paranoid fantasy is a personal attack and in the spirit of friendship, I advise you to think carefully about whether you wish to reiterate it now that I have removed such attack from this page. Happy New Year. Please reflect. I have no idea why you'd go to MilesMoney's talk page with insults and disparagement of @EllenCT: but I think it's unlikely your dwindling chances at Adminship have improved in 2014. SPECIFICO talk 20:44, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm glad to see that your survival instinct is strong enough to control what I can only imagine was an overwhelming reflex to repeat your personal attack on me. Good work. Keep it up. SPECIFICO talk 21:02, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that the surmise you posted might unfortunately indeed be seen by outside observers as being a specific statement of intent. And I would note that CANVASSing for the purposes of influencing an RfA is likely to be viewed unfavourably by anyone closing such a putative RfA. Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:04, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Specifico, how is posting your diff in any way a personal attack? Amazing. And, what "insults and disparagement of EllenCT" are you talking about? There is nothing like that on User_talk:MilesMoney! Or perhaps you are referring to User talk:TParis#Please un-ban MilesMoney? Either way, diffs and a specific explanation would substantiate your accusation. – S. Rich (talk) 21:07, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Bullying Women Editors on Misplaced Pages

I've read many comments about such behavior, but until very recently I'd never witnessed it. It has no place in this community. Maybe a female Staff Sgt. in the US Military is tough as nails, but we should not assume the same is true of any editor here, male or female. We do not know the other editors with whom we're dealing and so we should always err on the side of respect and sensitivity. SPECIFICO talk 01:14, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Show me the diffs about bullying anyone Specifico. Maybe we should report that bully on the ANI. – S. Rich (talk) 01:21, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

When a woman says you that you bullied her, Srich, it's reasonable to conclude that you have bullied her. That's what bullying means... inappropriately aggressive and intimidating. It's relative to the victim's sensibility. When an individual feels bullied, it's time to stop. Your mileage may vary. SPECIFICO talk 01:42, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Hey, SPECIFICO, that wasn't your opinion in this thread. Or does it depend on which woman it is and who allegedly is doing it? Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 01:45, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, when you attacked "female ideas" and made misogynist remarks, that was woman vs. woman bullying. As I recall, I did rebuke you. Women are often guilty of bullying other women and it is no less ugly than man vs. woman. There's also woman vs. man bullying (that is called "cowering") and other permutations, but they're not the topic of this thread. SPECIFICO talk 01:49, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

words or writings as psychotic rage." in link to section above and your reply was: "What is a "female idea?" Please do not be sexist. " Geez... Get your facts straight, please. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 02:30, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

@SPECIFICO: do you have a diff? ~Adjwilley (talk) 01:54, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi @Adjwilley: Sure It wasn't readily apparent because the thread has been collapsed. Apparently there's a long history of this sort of colloquy from Srich, and as I said to him, it's not a defense to claim that @EllenCT: is too sensitive or misinterprets him or whatever. She has told him repeatedly that this exchange is outside her comfort zone. You know from various past encounters that I don't like to see people bullied, and I often speak up to that effect. SPECIFICO talk 02:06, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, Specifico, who said I bullied a woman? Please show a diff. Is it EllenCT, who said she will not be bullied in response to my comment that I don't care to discuss a 6 month old topic? Or do you think EllenCT can accuse me of "baseless accusations" (without supplying diffs) and can get away with it by saying "I'm a woman, I think you are bullying me. Therefore you are bullying me, a woman." (Not that EllenCT has made such a statement.) You, Specifico, certainly are eager to make an accusation and read the unsupported accusations of others, and then immediately conclude that the accusations are true. You did not "witness" any bullying, Specifico. You witnessed someone reacting to a comment that was objectively not bullying. Hence your false accusations that I was bullying someone. – S. Rich (talk) 02:01, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

That's pretty ugly stuff, Srich. I said above the test of bullying is whether the target feels bullied. Your statement sounds more like "blame the victim" -- it's very ugly stuff. I won't even utter what it sounds like to me. SPECIFICO talk 02:09, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

@SPECIFICO: I was asking for a diff of the bullying itself. (If diffs of people saying they won't be bullied counted as evidence you could be blocked several times over yourself for comments made by Carolmooredc.) Bullying is a very serious accusation, and serious evidence is needed. I ask again, do you have a diff? ~Adjwilley (talk) 02:16, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

SPECIFICO seems to have trouble interpreting material, as I note above... Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 02:30, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

I'll supply a stinking diff of my interaction with EllenCT. Here: . Since I posted it, there has been one interchange on her talk page. The one where I brought up her "lurking" comment about TParis. (And since TParis did not read the lurking comment as offensive, I've stricken it.) EllenCT is welcome to come to this talk page anytime. She can say "shame!" all she likes. Maybe I'll respond, and maybe I'll close the thread. But to be accused of bullying. My gosh! – S. Rich (talk) 02:51, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Srich's attempts to try to intimidate editors with political railroading, selective interpretation of religious scriptures, baseless accusations, threats, acting offended when answers about the reasons for his behavior are asked, and now repeated censorship of my comments here are not successful attempts at bullying, but I strongly object to the attempts. If his "award" of a barnstar to me had any value, I would melt it down and split the proceeds from sale of the scrap between , , and EllenCT (talk) 03:20, 6 January 2014 (UTC)