Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 01:52, 12 January 2014

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the James Delingpole article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 10 days

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. University of Oxford Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject University of Oxford, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the University of Oxford on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.University of OxfordWikipedia:WikiProject University of OxfordTemplate:WikiProject University of OxfordUniversity of Oxford Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Conservatism Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Conservatism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of conservatism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ConservatismWikipedia:WikiProject ConservatismTemplate:WikiProject ConservatismConservatism Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Template:WPLibertarianism Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Journalism Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Journalism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of journalism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JournalismWikipedia:WikiProject JournalismTemplate:WikiProject JournalismJournalism Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Politics

I have altered a sentence referring to his candidacy in the Corby by-election which read "However he withdrew after an opinion poll of 1503 Corby voters identified just two (0.133%) who were planning to vote for him." It may be true that one thing followed another in the sense that it also came after the sun rose but "after" in this context strongly implies "because", and we don't know that. Certainly the explanation he gave was very different. Perhaps a sentence could be added stating that some bloggers speculated that his real reason for quitting the election was a fear that nobody would vote for him, but if so it should be clearly presented as the opinion of whoever said it, not stated as fact. Hobson (talk) 21:09, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

blp concerns

I have addressed the BLP issues by adding references wherein he calls anthropogenic climate change a "scam", and another where he admits no scientific expertise. Really I just had to refer to an already-mentioned interview to source the latter. --Kaj Taj Mahal (talk) 01:23, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

He Has No Scientific Qualifications

• "I note that warmists are often banging on about the fact that sceptics like Christopher Booker and myself 'only' have arts degrees. But actually that's our strength, not our weakness. Our intellectual training qualifies us better than any scientist – social or natural sciences – for us to understand that this is, au fond, not a scientific debate but a cultural and rhetorical one."
• "I feel a bit of an imposter talking about the science. I'm not a scientist, you may be aware. I read English Literature."
• And in the video interview, he says that he doesn't have the scientific expertise necessary to read scientific papers on climate change.

--Kaj Taj Mahal (talk) 02:14, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

you CANNOT jump from those comments to claim "he has no scientific training". -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:21, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

I never said that. I said he hasn't any scientific qualifications. He says he doesn't have a science degree explicitly in the first quote. --Kaj Taj Mahal (talk) 02:26, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

you most certainly DID say it " He does not have any scientific qualifications." Do not make flat out lies. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:34, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, you're right. I misspoke there; I meant to quote your exact phrase to say, "I didn't say he hasn't any 'scientific training'". --Kaj Taj Mahal (talk) 02:36, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

I never denied he had any scientific training. Any ounce of scientific training and having a qualification/degree are surely different, would you agree? --Kaj Taj Mahal (talk) 02:37, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

perhaps in theory, but still certainly not a claim that can be verified by the sources you presented without gross violation of WP:OR and WP:NPOV -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:33, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Article full protected for three days

Due to the edit warring the article has been full protected.

If an unexpected consensus breaks out any administrator not involved in the article can unprotect early (back to autoconfirmed only please, per Jimbo's 2012 indefinite autoconfirm required protect). Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:47, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Edit protect

Please change the section titled "Anthropogenic climate change denial" to "Views on climate change", per NPOV and BLP, I am quite certain Delingpole has never denied the climate changes. Darkness Shines (talk) 23:12, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

He at many times denied Anthropogenic climate change, variously calling it a "scam", made-up, or things to that effect. Please read the sources. --Kaj Taj Mahal (talk) 23:22, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• Support "Denial" is a pejorative. Given that this is a WP:BLP, a less inflammatory header would be more appropriate. If it turns out that "denial" really is the most accurate description, we can always add it back into the article later. For now, BLP requires us to be conservative. I'll also add that the current wording wasn't obtained through the normal consensus building process. Instead, it was rammed through via edit-warring, and the page was locked before anyone could fix it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:39, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Wrong, WP has already settled this debate. See Climate change denial and the talk page. --Kaj Taj Mahal (talk) 23:46, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

First, Climate change denial is only a B-class article. See WP:Otherstuffexists. Second, just because Misplaced Pages has an article on "Climate change denial" doesn't necessarily mean the term applies to Delingpole. In fact, Delingpole isn't even mentioned in that article. Third, you still have to follow the normal consensus building process for your edits. The only reason why this is currently in the article is because it was edit-warred in and the page was locked before anyone could fix it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:55, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

My point was that the article Climate change denial refers not to the term itself, but what the term is describing (rejection of the evidence-based scientific consensus on Climate change). Pardon the analogy, but would you similarly make an effort to all references to "Holocaust denial" to "Views on the Holocaust"? Just because there are two sides does not mean two sides have equal credence. The phrase "Climate change denial" is neutral and used in scholarly contexts and elsewhere on Misplaced Pages. Again, please see Talk:Climate_change_denial#Rename_this_article. Regards, --Kaj Taj Mahal (talk) 00:03, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

No, I wouldn't change references to "Holocaust denial" to "Views on the Holocaust". The reason why is that the term "Holocaust denial" has near universal acceptance. The term "Climate change denial" does not have near universal acceptance. The term "skepticism" is also used quite a bit. Which is used more, I have no idea. It's a false analogy to say that just because "Holocaust denial" is widely accepted, that means that "Climate change denial" is also widely-accepted. It's not. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:16, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

"Anthropogenic climate change denial" has near universal acceptance in the relevant academic community. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:25, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

How do you know or prove that? "Skeptic" seemed to be used a lot, too. While not part of the academic community, BBC News (a reliable source) refers to Delingpole as a "skeptic". I doubt if they refer to David Irving as a Holocaust "skeptic" and apparently they don't. See the difference? One term is widely accepted and the other is not. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:33, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Read Global Warming: How Scepticism Became Denial from Bulletin of the Atomic Sciences. I think that's also used as a source on Climate change denial, mind. As I've said (repeatedly), we have already settled this. --Kaj Taj Mahal (talk) 00:40, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately, they seem to be behind a pay (or membership wall). Are you saying that that source specifically refers to Delingpole as a "denier"? I know that you've said that before, but WP:OTHERSTUFF still applies. The article you keep referring to has not been peer-reviewed. It's has not gone through the WP:FA, WP:PR or even the WP:GA process. There wasn't a community-wide RfC about this. You're basically relying on WP:LOCALCONSENSUS and by extension: the article and that discussion are not about Delingpole. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:43, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• The Guardian referring to Delingpole as a denier.

But I don't see how that should matter. As TRPOD said, the term 'Climate change denial' has universal acceptance in the scientific community for the rejection scientific consensus of Anthropogenic global warming. Would you admit quotes from respected scientists using the term as proof? --Kaj Taj Mahal (talk) 01:22, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• • First, that appears to be an opinion piece, and not a straight news report. Second, I never said "denier" is never used. What I said was that both terms are used. Which is most used more often, I don't know. We should not seek out sources which say what we want them to say, and then simply repeat them. Instead, we look at the broad spectrum of reliable sources and attempt to determine if there is consensus. IOW, 1 out of 10 sources say 'X', and the other 9 say 'Y', we don't cite the oddball source for 'X'. OTOH, when reliable sources disagree, we cover the disagreement. For example, if 5 out 10 sources say 'X' and 5 say 'Y', we don't take sides. Instead, we cover both POVs. Third, what exactly is the relevant field? This is not an article about climate change. Instead, this is an article about a person, a journalist. The most relevant field is journalism. Do most academic sources about journalism refer to Delingpole as a skeptic or a denier? Or something else? Perhaps, they don't even mention this? I honestly don't know. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:46, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 12 January 2014

The placement of the "slam language" about Delingpole and peer reviewed literature in the first paragraph of this article is inflammatory and unprofessional in nature. It is a stretch to include that piece without also writing extensively on Delingpole's rebuke of the Horizon piece - with his own quotes used in his defense. 67.167.36.242 (talk) 01:29, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Please read WP:RS and WP:POV before making silly accusations of "slam language". --Kaj Taj Mahal (talk) 01:33, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Also note that it's important to include information about the amount of expertise Delingpole has on the topic of climate, since he makes extraordinary and (in many peoples' opinion) ludicrous claims about it at all the time. --Kaj Taj Mahal (talk) 01:41, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• Biography articles of living people
• All unassessed articles
• Start-Class biography articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• Start-Class University of Oxford articles
• Low-importance University of Oxford articles
• Start-Class University of Oxford (colleges) articles
• WikiProject University of Oxford articles
• Start-Class Conservatism articles
• Low-importance Conservatism articles
• WikiProject Conservatism articles
• Start-Class Journalism articles
• Low-importance Journalism articles
• WikiProject Journalism articles