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Revision as of 03:44, 17 June 2006

This article is compltely biased and presents the "Threat" to religion seemingly to come from primarly Gays and Lesbians — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.161.105.208 (talk • contribs)

First example

Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God. Canada has a long history of affording believers the religious freedom to assemble and worship without limitation or interference.

In the wiki article there is a statement that the "preamble' makes no mention of which God, later in that section Justice Bezil indicated that this was in reference to the christian god. The supreme court has never ruled on this. And in fact later in artcle it states

Muslim Canadians have also cited the preamble as being important to them: Some have written that "in Canada these are the principles of the Islamic Law which correspond to similar principles in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms which relate to: (1) The Supremacy of God and the Rule of Law (Preamble); (2) Guarantee of Rights and Freedoms (3) Fundamental Freedoms (4) Equality Rights; (5) Multicultural heritage." Since, in their view, Islamic law originated with God, and since multiculturalism would indicate the God referred to in the Preamble would include the Islamic god, then Islamic law should have a place in Canada.[13

http://en.wikipedia.org/Preamble_to_the_Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and_Freedoms

Canadians are therefore free to have their own beliefs and opinions, are free to practice religion, and are free to establish media organizations with religious content. Canadian religious institutions generally benefit from charitable organization status, which allows supporters to benefit from tax deductions for their financial contributions.

Notwithstanding the freedoms afforded to Canadian believers by the Charter of Rights, conflicting concepts have resulted in limitations on Canadians' religious freedom rights.

These rights have legal limitations when it somes to "Hate" speech

http://en.wikipedia.org/Section_Twenty-seven_of_the_Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and_Freedoms#Freedom_of_expression

Section 27 was applied by Chief Justice Brian Dickson in a different way in the Supreme Court case Canada (Human Rights Commission) v. Taylor (1990). In this case, Dickson found section 27 could reinforce limits on freedom of expression (in section 2), specifically hate speech. Section 27, along with section 15 of the Charter (the equality rights), would suggest fighting racial and religious discrimination would be a sufficient objective under section 1 of the Charter for limiting free expression under section 2.

Despite this, section 27 does not indicate that there are built-in limits in freedom of expression based on multiculturalism. Limits are measured in section 1. In R. v. Keegstra, also decided in 1990, the Court wrote that using sections 15 and 27 to limit the scope of freedom of expression contradicted "the large and liberal interpretation given the freedom of expression in Irwin Toy" and at any rate "s. 1 of the Charter is especially well suited to the task of balancing."

http://en.wikipedia.org/Status_of_religious_freedom_in_Canada#Religious_freedom_regarding_homosexuality_views_in_Canada

Religious freedom regarding homosexuality views in Canada All three of the main monotheistic religions in Canada (Judaism, Islam, and Christianity) have sacred texts that have sections that declare sexual relations between people of the same sex as forbidden and sinful.

As stated above Canada is a Multicultural socierty and no determination has been made as to the identity of 'god' in the preamble, the use of the above paragraph from the the "Religious Fredom" article is incorrect in its conclusion that Canada is a christian state and bound by church 'law'

Religious freedom regarding abortion views in Canada Most orthodox religious groups are opposed to abortion, some viewing it as murder. Christians, including both the Catholic Church and evangelical Christian churches, usually hold this position. Some Christian churches that have become more theologically liberal in the last century hold a pro-choice stance. Islam generally has the stance that if the woman's life is at stake, abortion is permissible under the principle of Shari`ah, the lesser of two evils. Moreover, there are a number of traditional scholars which state that quickening is a sign that the soul has entered the fetus. Otherwise, there is a wide range of positions within Islam. Abortions are usually not prohibited through the fourth month. Judaism places the value of the fetus below that of the woman in cases of danger to the woman.

The legalization of abortion in Canada prompted many people who hold religious beliefs against abortion, particularly those who view it as murder, to protest the precedents established by Canadian court decisions.

Religious education issues in Canada Canada has an inconsistent approach to religious education. Catholic education public funding is mandated by various sections of the Constitution Act, 1867 and reaffirmed by Section Twenty-nine of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. More recently however, with a growing level of multiculturalism, particularly in Ontario, debate has emerged as to whether publicly funded religious education for one group is permissible. Newfoundland for example, withdrew Catholic funding in 1995. Quebec abolished religious education funded by the state through the Education Act, 1998 which took effect on July 1st of that same year.

Several Canadian public school systems are under pressure to promote LGBT-rights or sex education topics, even in situations where parents are opposed to the idea on religious grounds.

This has nothing to do with religious 'freedom' and simply restates a NPOV staement on abortion and education

Frankly this entire Article is NPOV and must go — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.161.105.208 (talk • contribs)

• First, I'm glad you agree that the article is NPOV, although I assume you actually meant POV. I don't think it was necessary to reprint so much of the article in the talk section to make the few number of points you have. It would also be better if you used some formatting to distinguish your comments from quotes from the article. Also, you refer to quotes from other articles as if they are from this article.
• I truly don't understand what you are talking about regarding the preamble. The preamble is part of the Charter and, along with the constitution, it is the highest document in the land -- the one we (Canadians, at least) must accept as definitive. This article, like the Charter, makes no reference or assumption as to whether the God referred to is for a specific religion. So that applies to you second point also. The third point that religious education and abortion have nothing to do with religious freedom is your opinion, but does not match any of the many newspaper stories quoted or website content you would find if you did a search on religious freedom in Canada. You'll note from the footnote section of the article that all sources to date are from mainstream media sources or other credible sources.
• I am going to remove the compliant tag from the article. If you think the entire article must go, then mark it for deletion and it will be debated appropriately through that process. Deet 11:59, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

You have none rebutted of the claims that i have placed here with regards to the question of religious freeom in Canada and the effect of legitiamte human rights for gays and lesbians. Im am labeling this as disputed and i will nominate it for deletion unless both sides are rpesented equally — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.161.110.60 (talk • contribs)

DRCarroll 06:43, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

• I also need to revert your edits to the subtitles, primarily becuase they are inaccurate, but also because they are slanderous in some cases. Take Kempling, for example, he was never found or even accused of violating anyone else's human rights. He was the one pursuing court action, it was not pursued against him. I also don't understand the comment above. If I have rebutted your claims, then why are you pursuing this? Go ahead and nominate it for deletion, but there is no point is leaving a disputed label unless you can explain your points better. Nobody can understand which facts are in dispute. Your original and subsequent points are mostly senseless. A deletion prod will bring any issues to a head, so go ahead. Deet 21:25, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I am renengaging the NPOV title since you refuse to explain point by point where this article has been laid out in a nuetral manner. Your rebuttals have not explanied from a nuetral point of view were both points of view have been given in terms of Freedom of Religion in light of the Charter of rights and freedoms. None of the points that you have made here explain that whereas freedom of religion is important - using the supposed liscence of freedom of religion allows people to discriminate agasint people who are not members of a church be it christian,muslim, hindu or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The articles given in this article supposedly show how religious people have been persecuted because they are forced to conform to the laws that all canadians are to obey, not just the ones that they believe that god menat them too. If you must refer to this so-called "freedoms" as a topic then the topic should not be "Freedom of Religion" but something more to the effect "defiance to the charter based on faith"

DRCarroll 06:43, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

As for your "slanderous" comment they are entirely keeping with the findings of courts and tribunals. Your refusal to see this in light of discrmination merely highlights your lack of nuetrality — Preceding unsigned comment added by DRCarroll (talk • contribs)

• This article is footnoted far better than average. I addressed each of your points. If you are asking for a "point by point" defense of each sentence in the article, that is an unreasonable request, one I do not owe to someone who has appeared on Misplaced Pages solely to complain about this one article. As stated before, there is nothing anti-Muslim or hindu in this article. The term "religious believers" is frequently used, not "Christians" unless it is appropriate to a specific point. As I stated before, you can refer to any of the numerous newspaper articles or website searches and you will find issues like the ones raised here. If some believers feel these issues are ones that infringe on their freedoms, you may not agree, but squashing a list that references opinions of those who are feeling angst at speech restrictions, for example, would be an ironic way for Misplaced Pages to handle the topic. Your attempt to have this page deleted was disengaged by another wikipedia editor who felt your action was in bad faith. You also fail to recognize that much of this article is clipped from the main articles on the given topics, and have already been debated extensively by other editors. Given your lack of clear points, unreasonble requests, ignoring of my point regarding slandering Kempling (a living person -- therefore treated with extra sensitivity in Misplaced Pages), and your sole existence in wikipedia to complain about this one article, I am now considering your edits to the article as thinly disguised vandalism and will be reverting your unproductive edits. Deet 22:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I have provided direct points to the charter itself and your rebuttals to my challenges are not sastisfactory. As for my point by point claim it is entirely appropriate and relevant to Wiki itself and completly reasonable to Misplaced Pages since i am labelling this article that it may be biased and leave others for it to judge for themselves. Your definition of "bad faith" fails the test in that your examples of my "bad faith" are from the Charter itself and is dangerously close to being considered more of a personal and perhaps soley a religious agenda rather then an honest attempt to discuss the issue of religious freedom in canada in nuetral point of view. My edits are completely within the very esence of Misplaced Pages since anyone can edit an article and the very points are laid out in the Canadian Charter itself. Your accuation that somehow "I" am unbiased flys in the face of the acutual intent of Misplaced Pages and does it a dis-service.— Preceding unsigned comment added by DRCarroll (talk • contribs)

• You can sign with your tag name by adding ~~~~ after your comments. This helps others keep track of the conversation. I don't mind debating the neutrality, I only hope others will weigh-in and will be able to determine exactly what is in dispute here, because it isn't becoming any clearer to me. Deet 02:08, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Further, your footnotes to newspapers are often un-linked so a that person who wishes to further explore the are uncertain at best, where exactly are some of these articles you mention? And further to that thta many of these are press releases given s opinions and not as unbiased articles , tht somehow curiously sometimes find themselves posted onto Christian Websites to further thier agenda and thier false sense - ahem - oprression

Footnote 2: Unfindable within first page of google search.

Footnote 4: Unfindable within first page of google search.

Footnote 5: Unfindable within first page of google search.

Footnote 6: Unfindable within first page of google search. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050720/EMARRIAGE20/TPComment/Editorials Is and EDITORIAL and represents the Editors point of view and is not NPOV

Footnote 7: Unfindable within first page of google search.

Footnote 8: Found on google search page but not from National Post but reprrited as a Commentray (ie)

           Editorial ergo NPOV here

http://www.christianity.ca/news/social-issues/2005/04.001.html

           Not a NPOV source at all i shoulld think

Footnote 9: Unfindable within first page of google search.

Footnote 10: Unfindable within first page of google search.

Footenote 11: Found hotlinked on first page of google serach to this http://www.canadianchristianity.com/cgi-bin/na.cgi?nationalupdates/archives/0905 With an additional hotlink back to the Natioanl Post which does not work. Therefore, no verifiable link means it is uselss as a footnote ven if it wre not used by a totally biased website like Canadian Chritianity

Footnote 12: Unfindable within first page of google search.

Footnote 13: found liked to this website on first page of Google search http://www.canadiancrc.com/articles/Tor_Star_our_kids_deserve_equality_31JAN05.htm

Again an Editorial OPNION piece and not NPOV , much less written by this person

Metropolitan Archbishop Sotirios belongs to the Multi-faith Coalition for Equal Funding of Religious Schools; Aaron Blumenfeld, represents the Ontario Association of Jewish Day Schools; M.D. Khalid is an executive member of the Islamic Society of North America Canada; Ripsodhak Singh Grewal is a member of the Khalsa Community (Sikh) School.

Again this is done from the Religious only POV and of course will supoort thier conclusions. UYsless in a NPOV site to butrees your claims of religious freedom in canada

Footnote 14: Unfindable within first page of google search.

Footnote 15: Unfindable within first page of google search.

Footnote 16: linked here http://www.christianity.ca/news/social-issues/2004/05.000.html http://www.canadianchristianity.com/cgi-bin/na.cgi?nationalupdates/040422svend http://www.liquidlewis.com/barb/archive.htm Again an editorial as given as opinion in a non-NPOV manner, useless in NPOV site such as wiki

Footnote 17: linked here http://www.christianity.ca/news/national/2005/02.000.html http://www.canadianchristianity.com/cgi-bin/na.cgi?nationalupdates/050202liberals Same sites same biased opinions

Footnote 18: supposedly for Winnipeg free press , but unfindable. Further the Free Press is paid subscription site only. If your going to reference it it must be publicaly available. Useless for Wiki

Footnote 20: Same as above

Footnote 21: Unfindable within first page of google search.

Footnote 24: Unfindable within first page of google search.

Footnote 25: Unfindable within first page of google search.

Footnote 29: Unfindable within first page of google search.

Footnote 30: Unfindable within first page of google search.

Footnote 31: Unfindable within first page of google search.

You have done a dis-service to Wiki ,Free thought and to the idea legitimate non-biased information.

I am reengaging the Nuetrality tag and further adding question to the factual accuracy based on the fact that many of your 'sources' are unverifiable or otherwise Biased themselves — Preceding unsigned comment added by DRCarroll (talk • contribs)

• Please do not erase my responses to you. That is not productive. Newspaper articles are searchable in electronic form at any library, and are of course completely legitimate references. These are not obscure newspapers or news organizations. You can also refer to the external link (www.religiousfreedom.ca) which discusses many of the same issues, with additional links to the court cases themselves. Deet 03:22, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I am well within my rights to reengage the tag as appropriate should i find the article in question to be in question . If i erased comments to the edit page it was by mistake and i apologize for the mistake.

As for you sources , if these are in fact left by you , you have a reponsibility to provide them easily so that people persuing this subject on the Net and specifically Misplaced Pages can independently verify them by thelmselves as to whether the sources you have represented as NPOV are in fact that, or simply cover for another agenda . And your excuse of a "Trip to the library" holds no water, it would be as say that i cant post a 'source' to an article if i have it in my scrapbook. Anyone can come to my home and look at my scrapbook - i wont even charge them. Not only do you lack a NPOV but you present sources that are biased, not easliy avaiable, or charge for access to the articles , or even Editorials which are simply Opinions given in these cases by columinsts and to back up thier own pre-conceptions on any particular idea, in this case , the so-called opression of 'christians'

www.Religiousfreedom.ca is pointedly NOT a NPOV source which is directly tied to http://www.evangelicalfellowship.ca/ who in there mission statement the following

The Evangelical Fellowship of Canada believes:

The Holy Scriptures as originally given by God are divinely inspired, infallible, entirely trustworthy, and constitute the only supreme authority in all matters of faith and conduct. There is one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Our Lord Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh; we affirm his virgin birth, sinless humanity, divine miracles, vicarious and atoning death, bodily resurrection, ascension, ongoing mediatorial work, and personal return in power and glory. The salvation of lost and sinful humanity is possible only through the merits of the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, received by faith apart from works, and is characterized by regeneration by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit enables believers to live a holy life, to witness and work for the Lord Jesus Christ. The Church, the body of Christ, consists of all true believers. Ultimately God will judge the living and the dead, those who are saved unto the resurrection of life, those who are lost unto the resurrection of damnation.

And in regards to Abortion

The Bible teaches that God gives life as a gift. Human life has inherent worth and must be respected and protected through all of its stages, beginning at conception.

There is a long page here but in no way eplains a womans right to choose,or a NPOV on that issue, clearly Non-NPOV here.

They do not mention homosexuality per se but this is from their "Marriage and Family" page

Marriage is a lifelong covenant between a man and a woman. Like God’s complementary creation of man and woman, marriage holds great significance in revealing aspects of God’s character and His relationship to humanity. The permanence and monogamy of the marital bond mirrors God’s faithfulness and singular devotion to his church and his church’s singular devotion to him.

Marriage symbolizes and supports the inherently procreative relationship that exists only between a man and a woman. It is also the relationship that forms the foundation of family and community life.

The family is to provide physical, emotional and spiritual care for its members as it enables them to serve God, other persons and creation. Parents have the privilege and unique responsibility of leading their children to know God and his ways as well as the world around them. See the EFC paper on Marriage and Family for a fuller discussion of the evangelical Christian view of marriage.

Obviously a religiously biased ideology based upon a Christian outlook on the world. While at the same time insisting that marriage is for man and woman only in gods eyes , where even a cursory look says that not all chritians believe what these evangelicals believe

http://en.wikipedia.org/Gene_Robinson

(portion)

The Rt. Rev. Vicki Imogene "Gene" Robinson (born May 29, 1947) is the ninth bishop of the Diocese of New Hampshire in the Episcopal Church in the United States of America. Robinson was elected bishop in 2003 and entered office on March 7, 2004. Prior to becoming bishop, he served as assistant to the retiring New Hampshire bishop. Robinson is best known for being the first openly gay, noncelibate priest to be ordained to the historic episcopate (see gay bishop).

It has beceome clear that your 'sources are often biased, often unverifiable or both. I strongly suggest you to review your commitment to Misplaced Pages and its strict NPOV philosophy

DRCarroll 06:43, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I am adding Religioustolerance.org to external links with gives points of view from all faith inlcuding Agnostics and humanists etc etc DRCarroll 07:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

• Why don't you add a sentence or two after each example subtitle for those you think require some context to frame the issues. For example, "Canadians are limited in because ". That way the facts are preserved and your points are made. I don't think you are actually disputing the fact that the limitations exist, you just feel there are good reasons for the limitations. So take a stab at adding some neutral context that you think helps to properly frames the issues.
• BTW, you can find many articles regarding issues (eg. Jim Harris (politician)) that rely heavily on newspaper articles. Funny that not one complaint was raised regarding the Harris article, given it is so well-discussed. Some may want to apply a higher standard to religious freedom related articles (you're definitely not the first), but that would clearly be a double-standard. Here's another good example: Betty Disero. Deet 22:17, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

~Alright, I will admit that I'm a Wiki first-timer using the discussion feature, so please forgive me if I unknowingly breach any norms here, please correct me if I'm in the wrong. I would like to agree wih DRCarroll here in saying that I find this article to be quite biased. No, I haven't taken the time to troddle down to my public library and look up your sources, but with a fair amount of knowledge into research methods, I'm well aware that one can find resources to back up ANY point of view. I will agree with your points, Deet, regarding when you say that most religions are opposed to homosexuality, sex education, abortion, etc BUT this being an article on religious freedoms, both sides should be presented. A part of religious freedom, as one can assume from the Charter is freedom FROM religion, and these topics (though they are often discussed in a religious context) do exist outside of the religous vacuum. Your article seems more about using the context of religion to outline the supposed immorality and evil in topics which you are opposed, instead of discussing the actual meaning of religious freedom. Lysithia 15:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I have begun the editing process by re-writing the preview section by explaning as best i can the true intent of Section 2 of the charter and its reasonable limitations, citing both the justice department directly and a well known case in canada. Comments are welcome DRCarroll 05:44, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I have changed the name of section 1 to Background of article 2 conflicts to give a more accurate definiton.

Further i have the first sub-section to " religious views regarding homosexuality". Also have removed the more obvious unverfiable claims that 'most' canadians do not support gay rights. And have also made mention that some religions support LGBT rights by linking it to 'lgbt issues and religion'

Have added gay rights views regarding discrimination- needs work. Im straight so i perhaps dont have the historical perspective neccesary to give thier views. Comments and help certainly welcome DRCarroll 10:58, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Reviewing the paragraph headers and trying to put a NPOV description to the. Shortened some sections and removed others ie "Comments from federal governments" as uncitable, unverifiable or openly NPOV ie The governer generals award for Ms Bishop DRCarroll 10:58, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

• The Bishop reference was "clickable" and completely verifiable. You can't just delete large sections because you have trouble discrediting them. You have deleted 1/3 of the facts from the article. I'm trying to work with you, but you leave me no choice but to revert. Again, I'm less particular regarding the words used, because if they are not neutral (either by you or me), they will be corrected over time. However, I am sensitive to facts being deleted. Deet 02:27, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I see Deet taht you've been putting your bias back in here. Im reverting it back to the headers i has and reinstating the NPOV tag DRCarroll 21:23, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I see that you've tried it again, instead of a knee-jerk reaction , post some verfiable facts then alter according to a NPOV state instead of just inserting bias DRCarroll 03:22, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Mediation requested

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