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Blocked for one week

Your repeated accusations against other editors as being "persecutors of Muslims" because they won't let you vandalize the Muhammad pictures article has gone on long enough. I've blocked you for a week. Live with it. User:Zoe| 19:59, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Unblock denied. NSLE _(T+C) at 02:02 UTC (2006-05-27)

I don't agree with the word vandalize, Zoe. Arno 01:31, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

MfD comment

My apologies for having taken so long to reply to your query; I undertook to complete a few "small" tasks here, and, as I am wont to do, spent more time than I ought to have. In any event, I've followed your posts to the mailing list, and, to the extent that I think some of the advice given you is good, I'll not recapitulate it here. I think, though, that I would mainly counsel that, in the future, you would do well to focus your comments on content, rather than on contributors. Not only, for example, did the title of your subpage seem tendentious, but it also unnecessarily impugned the neutrality of other users. You may, perhaps, think the actions of other editors to follow from their hatred for/indifference to the suffering of Muslims, but you ought, consistent with WP:AGF, to conclude that, at worst, other editors are avolitionally biased (see, e.g., systemic bias), such that a better title might be Edits evincing an incomplete worldview (or even Edits evidencing a malappreciation for the concerns, inter al., of Muslims). I am a fan of dichotmous, even Manichean, systems of argument, and often enjoy attempting to prevail on the broadest possible grounds, but you would do well (at least on Misplaced Pages) to focus on narrower grounds and to assume good faith in other editors (if only in view of Ockham's razor; it's not realistic, IMHO, to think that sundry admins and other editors are conspiring to persecute Muslims). I am an atheist and generally look with disfavor on religion and religious people (often, though incorrectly, imputing intellectual infirmity to those who have faith), but I am also able to appreciate that there are areas in which Misplaced Pages's coverage is lacking (although I could not disagree more strongly with you apropos of the cartoons controversy and the attendant display of the "offensive" images); you would certainly attract more editors such as me (including, I think, most of the admins with whom you have had conflicts, many of whom I know to be deliberative, moderate, and sensible people) to consider whether there is an anti-Muslim systemic bias in certain articles were you to focus on those edits you think to evidence such bias rather than on editors whom you think to hold such a bias and intentionally to exercise it. Many of us have criticisms of Misplaced Pages (I, for example, have often voiced objections to WP:BLP, believing it improperly to substitute, at times and inappropriately, the judgment of a few for the judgment of many, and in any case not to reflect the proper dispassion and disinterest with which we ought to write), but we express them in a decorous fashion, believing other users to share encyclopedic goals, and seek to contribute propitiously, not deleteriously. Because I don't find most personal attacks to be disruptive, and because I've long since pledged never to seek a block on another user for a personal attack perpetrated against me (since my editing isn't interrupted or otherwise affected), I'd not likely have cared had you listed me as a persecutor of Muslims here, but you surely must understand that others take offense at the levelling of such appellative and that your page had the feel of an angry screed rather than of a constructive criticism. Not only does one catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, but so also is vinegar inappropriate in this situation; I am confident that those with whom you have conflicts are acting in view of encyclopedic and not sectarian concerns, and I am certain that they'd react differently were you to raise your criticisms in a different fashion (there is, though, the concern that, for those of us who believe that the encyclopedic ought never to budge vis-à-vis the display of the cartoons in the article, you'll never be able to effect a successful dialogue with us; nevertheless, you might alert us to other areas on which we ought to work and you'll surely convince us of your good faith). Joe 04:58, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately the title of my page has been missunderstood. Call me naive, but I've never even thought about, whether admins could think, that I would assume them to deliberately persecute Muslims. It is a fact, that presumably Muslims have been blocked in the minute they removed the cartoons the first time, and in that sense I've used the title. It reminds me of a missunderstanding that happened to me before, when editors were claiming, that they have no plan to "get the muslims here". I thought, that they must have meant "get the muslims away", when they actually meant "get them" in the meaning of "To take revenge on, especially to kill in revenge for a wrong." Anyway, I've been blocked days after I've repeatedly agreed to change the title. I don't know, whether I should take Zoes warning serious, where she told, that I'll be blocked indefinitely should I recreate the page in any fashion. Would you care to ask her, whether I can recreate the page using your title for it? Raphael1 16:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Raphael1, quick to tell a half truth are we? Here's what was added shortly after the wrong definition of "get them" was indicated:

Netscott 16:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I wonder what difference that would make, since I haven't thought of the meaning "to overcome or destroy" either. Raphael1 16:53, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

There's no effort "to overcome" the Muslims here. Raphael1, isn't it time to move on already? Seriously at this rate it won't be long before "the community's patience" will be exhausted. Netscott 17:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

This came very close to being a taunt, Netscott. Let's refrain from this in future. Arno 03:04, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

No, sorry, those names are as offensive as anything else he's called them. I still don't see why he feels the need to be making this list anyway, since it has nothing to do with creating an encyclopedia. User:Zoe| 01:48, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Supporting permanently banned User:Rgulerdem

Would one not look foolish when writing in support of a highly disruptive editor like Resid Gulerdem particularly when in a completely independent fashion he's been repeatedly blocked in the Misplaced Pages of his own native language (Turkish)? It's as if any particular person writing in support of him wasn't aware of his disruptive nature or was just doing so blindly because it's a cause!. Netscott 17:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Greetings Raphael1, as nominator for deletion of User:Rgulerdem's proposed policy WP:OURS I'm notifying you as a courtesy to voice your view on Misplaced Pages:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:OURS. Thanks. Netscott 16:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Being that you have a prior pattern of canvassing those who tend to share your views in search of support regarding various articles/topics of discussion on Misplaced Pages I would recommend that you not continue to do this as it is rather frowned upon. Netscott 16:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Others have done this with apparent impunity, netscott, so i'm not sure what objective reason there is for Raphael1 being an exception. Arno 03:02, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

You may want to file a deletion review for WP:OURS as the policy's been speedy deleted (G5 reasoning, banned users cannot start pages on Misplaced Pages). Netscott 20:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Do not consider my silence as consent

Consider my silence as having grown tired of dealing with your trolling. User:Zoe| 17:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Suggest different strategy

Raphael1, hi. I had actually seen that deletion discussion as well. I think you might want to consider going about this differently. I think I see what problems you're addressing with these pages, and actually, I've been thinking about some suggestions of my own to address some of the same issues. Can we, you and I, have a conversation about what exactly needs to happen, and how Misplaced Pages can get there? I would suggest that these particular policy proposals aren't the path that's going to get us out of these woods, if for no other reason than the opposition they draw because of association with a banned editor.

So tell me - what do you see as the primary problem that you want to address with a policy proposal for Misplaced Pages? -GTBacchus 20:36, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Personally, my suggestion (as voiced on GT's talk page) is that you cool your heels for a while, then make your proposal again, addressing the complaints that were made about it previously. --tjstrf 00:24, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

re: too much frustration

As I explained at DRV, I assumed Netscott was being straightforward with me, until you contradicted him, at which point I'm just suspending judgement. I'm not claiming that you're acting as proxy, nor am I claiming that you aren't. See? That's how I can keep assuming good faith on both your parts. Apparently, Netscott believes you are acting as proxy for a banned user, and you believe you are not. Me, I don't know.

Your explanation regarding the reasons the proposal has been deleted strike me as slightly paranoid. You can "assure" me what the "true reason" is, but I have to make a judgement based on evidence that I actually see, not just assurances, however sincere. Then you say that "this proposal tried to incorporate decency in this encyclopedia and unfortunately there are a lot of Wikipedians who prefer profanity," and I think now that your proposal isn't anything like what I was imagining. Still if you want to talk about it sometime when you're less frustrated, I'd be happy to listen and let you know what I think. My inital reaction is that I didn't realize we had a big problem with profanity here - I haven't seen any that I can think of, except in appropriate places (e.g., articles about certain words). -GTBacchus 18:37, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Bad faith revert

Raphael1, this revert you did was very bad faith in view of the editorial commentary you made, "rv Netscotts vandalism". I made that shortcut if you hadn't noticed. I changed the shortcut after I made the additional shortcut WP:NOVOTE. I'm thinking that the only way that you would have become aware of my editing on that particular shortcut would be if you were tracking my edits (something others tend to call "wikistalking"). I would recommend that you refrain from such demonstrations of bad faith as they will tend to result in your being blocked. Netscott 15:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

You are fixing for a block. Now that you are edit warring with me over a shortcut that I created this looks like a decent reason for posting on WP:ANI. If you're not blocked you'll likely be warned. I just created that shortcut yesterday which means that there are no wikilinks to it. Cease your bad faith reverting. Netscott 16:08, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there's any call to start talking about blocks; Raphael just needs to be reminded that we have a very narrow definition of vandalism here. If there's a chance that the person isn't trying to make Misplaced Pages worse, it's not vandalism. I can see how changing a redirect like that would be a rather nasty trick if it were already an established shortcut that lots of people were using to point to one place, and you suddenly move it on them. This is why it's important to look a little bit into the history - like checking the "what links here" page - before you jump to accusing another editor of vandalism. Think of the slight amount of extra work as a kind of "Wiki-ethics". -GTBacchus 16:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

"Start" talking about blocks? Raphael1 has been blocked many times before. User:Zoe| 20:58, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

So? Every time you start talking about another block, you just started talking about it. I think a light handed approach is not inadvisable here. It turns out the most effective way to deal with someone who's been blocked many times before isn't necessarily to threaten them with another block. Sometimes, giving them more dignity is a good idea. -GTBacchus 00:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, but I suppose when a certain measure of good faith has been expressed relative to an individual and such measures of good faith haven't been expressed in kind it'll tend to lead to things like an ArbCom case. Netscott 00:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Which I'm watching with interest. -GTBacchus 00:26, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

So every time someone comes back from a block, we just forget everything that has transpired before and give them a blank slate? User:Zoe| 01:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Proxy

It appears that you are not understanding what the word proxy means. Until such time as you come to fully understand what that word means I would recommend that you cease from making NPA warnings. If my response here does not correspond to your wishes, then I invite you to seek a third opinion or file a request for comment. Like the NPA warning you've just left me on my talk page any further NPA warnings from you will be summarily deleted with no further discussion on my part. Netscott 17:14, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

3RR Warning

Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages under the three-revert rule, which states that nobody may revert an article to a previous version more than three times in 24 hours. (Note: this also means editing the page to reinsert an old edit. If the effect of your actions is to revert back, it qualifies as a revert.) Thank you. Netscott 19:11, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

WP:PAIN

Raphael1, I really don't know what you're trying to accomplish, exactly. Some people choose to get things done; others choose to make lots of waves in the appearance of trying to get things done. It seems to me you're doing the latter. Would you rather be effective, or appear righteous? -GTBacchus 19:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I can see that your frustrated, but I also see where the others are coming from. It's hard to see that you're not representing a banned user when you start pages just like the ones he started, with the same titles and everything. This approach seems to be rubbing people the wrong way, whether or not that's fair. If you have some suggestions for improvements to Misplaced Pages, let's talk about that, but your best response to the situation with being accused of being a proxy for Rgulerdem is to walk away from those pages. -GTBacchus 19:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Why should you have to? Because you prefer accomplishing something to looking like a martyr maybe? Because you'd rather be effective than appear righteous? Because it's silly to try to knock a hole in a wall with your head when you could just walk around it instead? Are you familiar with the term realpolitik? -GTBacchus 20:03, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

No, I'm a realist; I don't crucify myself or anyone else. I intend to still be working harmoniously with others on this site in a year. The last thing I'd do is block someone because I don't like what they say. If I think someone is attacking someone else, I'll talk to them. I don't see that you're really being attacked here; it seems much more likely to me that there's some kind of misunderstanding. I don't really go through life looking for "bad guys", you see. I think it's very understandable why Netscott and many others get the impression that you're representing a banned editor. I think, if you're more interested in results than in drama (are you?), you'll realize that, yeah it kinda might look that way, and you'll decide this isn't a hill you want to die on. We choose our battles in this life. I asked you before and you didn't answer: is it more important to you to improve Misplaced Pages, or to do it in this particular way, using a page with a title and structure that seem not to sit well with your fellow editors? -GTBacchus 21:07, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

By the way, when I use the word "righteous", I don't mean something good. "Appearing righteous" as opposed to being right, is what fools do. I got it from a line in The Eumenides -GTBacchus 21:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Nice new Hit? "list"

Requested move

Consequences of enforcing results of polls in February → Consequences of enforcing general consensus determined in February. I suppose you'll never learn. Netscott 22:09, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Incoming arbitration

An arbitration case involving you has been filed here. --Cyde↔Weys 01:28, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Huh.

So, this is all about the cartoons, is that what's going on? Is that the direction you and Rgulerdem are going with these policy proposals? -GTBacchus 03:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

You told me it was somehow about "decency" versus "profanity" and I have no idea what you're talking about. Show me the profanity you think shouldn't be here. Explain to me what you mean by decency. If you don't communicate clearly, how will people ever know what you mean? I'm willing to work with you, and meet you halfway, and ask and answer questions, but if we're going to work together, you have to tell me what on Earth you're thinking. -GTBacchus 00:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for that explanation. That was very helpful. Are there other examples of profanity that you're thinking about, too?

Regardless, I think I can see where you're coming from about the cartoons. You're saying, if they're visible in the article, that discourages Moslem editors from looking at the article at all, much less contributing to it. If they decide to remove the cartoons, they get driven away, or blocked or whatever, and your "consequences" page was evidence of this phenomenon. Am I understanding you correctly? -GTBacchus 01:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Good, I'm glad we have some common understanding to work from. Before going further into it - and I'm going to have to read up on the history of this controversy - I have a small concern about you recent post at my talk page, in which you listed diffs pointing to Netscott's "denouncements" of you. The fourth link you provided, here is a polite and gracious compliment from one editor to another on their eloquence and clear expression. I find it difficult to see that as a denouncement. If you're going to teach others how to be decent, are you prepared to lead by example? It's hard work, being decent, but if you're up to it, I'm in your corner. -GTBacchus 01:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, Raphael1. :) -GTBacchus 02:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I would like to help you but not sure how can I help? --- Faisal 11:18, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Can you email me please at studentreseacher@gmail.com? --- Faisal 11:28, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I cannot send any email to you. Because I think your mail box is full? I am waiting for your reply regarding my last email. --- Faisal 12:18, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

you're right

I misworded my comments. I will change them. User:Zoe| 18:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

WP:SPAM

Raphael1, please stop spamming project talk pages with links to your ArbCom case. Additionally, stop removing advice against such solicitations, as you have on Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Islam. Thanks.Timothy Usher 21:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

You can always come back...

You can always come back under a different username of course. BhaiSaab 03:35, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Not if he's blocked. To do so would cause the new account to be blocked, as well. User:Zoe| 23:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Not if no one knew it was him. BhaiSaab 00:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Raphael1

Hello,

An Arbitration case involving you has been opened: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Raphael1. Please add evidence to the evidence sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Raphael1/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Raphael1/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Johnleemk | Talk 11:33, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Category marked for deletion

You may be interested.

Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_June_16#Category:People_killed_by_or_on_behalf_of_Muhammad

BhaiSaab 00:19, 18 June 2006 (UTC)