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Re:Foreign relations

Hi Middayexpress! Its me again. As one of the most active and knowledgeable contributors on the Horn of Africa articles, I was wondering if you could possibly help me improve the Article on Somalias Foreign Relations? President Hassan has reestablished ties with the South Korean Goverment this month and more recently with the Japanese's Goverment. I am unable to add images and improve ones that all ready there. May you also check my work? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AcidSnow (talk • contribs) 16:16, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi Acid Snow. Thanks for the message; I've adjusted the material accordingly. Let me know if you need help with anything else. Best, Middayexpress (talk) 14:40, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

By the way, if ever you want to spruce up your user and talk pages, there are design/decor tools you can access here. Cheers, Middayexpress (talk) 14:40, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you! I really do appreciate your help. I am unable to edit the image of this http://en.wikipedia.org/File:Diplomatic_missions_of_Somailia.png . How do I do that? I plan on filling in the UK, Japan, the USA, and South Korea.

No worries. I've noted the other diplomatic missions. Cheers, Middayexpress (talk) 15:44, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! I have add the United Kingdom to the page. I plan on adding Yemen and Denmark because they already have their own page. But I am wondering if I should dived the countries in different regions. I have already gave each country their own "tab' so its easier for mobile users to read. I am unsure cause there aren't many countries listed in the pages.

Parents

Hi Acid Snow. Regarding the categories, please note that Somali American is already parent category Somali American, which is under parent category Horn African American. Horn African American, like category North African American, is in turn under the parent Ethnic groups in the United States category. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 14:02, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Please note the same principle vis-a-vis Djiboutian American, Eritrean American and Ethiopian American. Cheers, Middayexpress (talk) 12:59, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Ditto. Middayexpress (talk) 22:12, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Re:Macro-Somali languages

Why is Somali classified on Misplaced Pages as part of the Macro-Somali languages? Only one source that is listed says it is will other more will know sources put it in another branch from Rendille, Aweer, and Baiso. So why is it listed as that on the classification section. But the dialects of Somali go: Cushitic-> East-> Somali-> Dialect. Why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AcidSnow (talk • contribs) 04:42, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi AcidSnow. That's a good question. The parameters here seem to be between "Omo-Tana", and "Macro-Somali" as a subgrouping of that. In truth, "Omo-Tana" itself is likely not a valid linguistic grouping since it is tied to the southern-origin theory for Proto-Cushitic. This hypothesis was popularized by the anthropologist Herbert Lewis and historian E.R. Turton during the late 1960s i.e. by non-linguists. It stipulates that Proto-Cushitic differentiated in the vicinity of the Omo Valley and Lake Tana ("Omo-Tana"), prior to the entry of Bantu and Nilo-Saharan speakers into the region. The various major Cushitic proto-languages would then later have expanded from there, with the East, Central and North Cushitic languages moving northward into the Horn, and the South Cushitic languages moving further south into the Great Lakes. Since around the late 1990s, this southern-origin hypothesis has fallen into disfavour, as it contradicts and/or overlooks most other lines of evidence. Among the latter are the fact that most Cushitic sub-branches are today concentrated in the Horn (East, Central and North Cushitic), not south of it (only South Cushitic is); the Cushitic language that has retained the most archaic features is Beja/North Cushitic, which is spoken much farther north in the Sudan-Egypt border area; the earliest pastoral rock art in eastern Africa is not found in the southern Ethiopia/northern Kenya area, but instead in the northern Somalia/Djibouti/Eritrea area (e.g. at Laas Gaal and Dhambalin, which contain the earliest examples of domesticated sheep, camels and even horses; camels and horses are in fact still mainly restricted to the Horn and points further north); oral traditions on the oldest population movements of Cushitic speakers mainly assert northward-to-southward migrations; the Modern South Arabian languages have a Cushitic substratum, which suggests that Cushitic speakers once inhabited the area alongside Semitic speakers. The linguist Mohamed Diriye Abdullahi discusses some of the other reasons why the traditional northern point of origin of Cushitic is most probable (c.f. ). Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 13:29, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the response! Would the classifactions on wiki be changed or left alone? Also would the dialects of Somali which are Jiido, Dabarre, Garre and Tunni be considered their own language? I hard that in some cases they are but other times not. If it is then would its speakers be in their own Ethnic group?

Along with Maay, those tongues are actually all separate Cushitic languages. They have a different sentence structure and phonology from Somali. They also present similarities with Oromo that are not found in mainstream Somali. Chief among these is their lack of pharyngeal sounds, features which by contrast typify Somali. Abdullahi touches on this. This is why those languages are noted as separate Afro-Asiatic languages on their respective pages. The original speakers of those languages have largely been assimilated into the Rahanweyn (Digil and Mirifle) clan confederation, which is why those tongues are often referred to as Digil and Mirifle languages. Cheers, Middayexpress (talk) 13:55, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Please also note that Benadiris are partially descended from recent Yemeni/Omani migrants. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 13:55, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Re:Walashma dynasty

What ethnicity were the people of the Walashma dynasty? Many of the rulers were recorded being Somali while others are not given enough info on that topic. Was the dynasty both Arab and Somali or a plan dynasty of Muslims? AcidSnow (talk) 01:34, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi AcidSnow. The Chronicle of the Walashma and Al-Maqrizi indicate that Umar Walashma, the founder of the dynasty, was of Quraysh or Hashimite origin (more here). According to Maqrizi, the forefathers of ʿUmar Walashma first settled in the Zeila-controlled Jabarta region. From there, they slowly moved into the hinterland. The Walashma's genealogical traditions are thus similar to those of the Darod, Ajuuraan, Harari, etc. Sultans i.e. pretty typical for the early Muslim rulers of the region. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 13:11, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

FYI

Hi AcidSnow. A username has just tried to place undue weight on terrorism and other negative issues on the Somali American page. This is despite the noted sharp drop in such activity . Most tellingly, the material was also in part sourced to an unreliable partisan website (c.f. ). Given this, would you mind keeping an eye on the page? Best, Middayexpress (talk) 13:48, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Sure, I will keep an on this page. Thanks you for informing me on this. AcidSnow (talk) 14:55, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Agglomeration

Hi AcidSnow. Please note that the population figures for Seattle and San Diego includes many Bantus, who aren't ethnically Somali but have a large presence on the west coast. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 15:20, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

SSL

Hi AcidSnow. I noticed you indicated on the sign languages list page that the Somali Sign Language is not based on the Kenyan Sign Language. It actually does have some influence from KSL because the deaf Somali man who created SSL was educated in a deaf school where KSL was taught, and some of that influence filtered through. However, KSL itself has influences from British Sign Language and American Sign Language, among others (which it probably evolved from), so that in itself doesn't mean much. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 14:48, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Do you agree with Kwamikagami recent change to the Somali Sign Language page? I thought its gestures were based of the Somali culture with some influences from Kenyan and English? But according to Kwamikagami it's the other way around being completly based off Kenyan since with Somali influnce? I don't think Somalis would do something like that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AcidSnow (talk • contribs) 17:48, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

That does appear to be what he is suggesting, although it's of course patent nonsense. Woodford actually states quite plainly that SSL is rooted in the Somali language and culture, and that its development has been influenced by a sense of shared nationhood between ethnic Somalis inhabiting both Somalia proper and other areas in or near the Horn region. She also indicates that SSL is different from KSL and most other sign languages on the continent in that it was started by a deaf person, while the majority of the first deaf schools elsewhere were established by hearing people (c.f. ). I'm presently working to redress this situation, as it's a matter of factual inaccuracy at this point. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 18:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Why does she ignore it? I have read parts of the talk page and it looks like she simply ignores it and acts like that fact does not exist. AcidSnow (talk) 19:56, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Somali sultans

I think the "Category:Somali sultans" should be replaced with "Category:Somali Monarchs" as many Somali rulers did not hold this title, but others like Emir, King, Imam, Governor, and Queen. Despite having these different titles they were still the monarchs of where they ruled. Is this possible to change? If yes, how do I go about this? AcidSnow (talk) 13:03, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, the others would go under "Somalian monarchs". Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 13:39, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Haha did you really call the category "Somalian"?

Yeah, "Somalian" for consistency. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 13:41, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Also, note that if a category is already under a particular parent category, it's redundant to add that parent category to the same page as that child category. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 13:39, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Re:Poets

Ok, done. Cheers, Middayexpress (talk) 21:55, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Infobox

Hi AcidSnow. Please note that the infobox population figures for each diaspora population is covered on the relevant Somali ethnic group page's infobox. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 13:39, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Ajuuraan Sultanate

Hi AcidSnow. Please note that the Ajuuraan Sultanate's domain extended from Mareeg in the north, to Qallaafo in the west, to Barawa in the south. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 13:39, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes I understand you had already informed me about this and I have made no such changes yet.vAcidSnow (talk) 16:13, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Garre

Just wanted to mention that if you had used an edit summary the first time I would not have changed the article back. Cheers. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 04:44, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Art

Hi AcidSnow. I noticed you described this edit as "formatting" . However, you are actually mainly copy-editing there, so you have to at least indicate this via "c/e" or "ce" or simply "copyediting". You can also describe the text itself in the editing rationale (e.g. "art"). Just some helpful suggestions. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 15:32, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Re:Personal message

Is there anyway I could personal message you? As in a way that only you and me can see. AcidSnow (talk) 19:39, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

You can always reach me on my talk page. Alternatively, try the email this user function under Toolbox on the left hand side of my user page. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 19:47, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank, will email you when I get the chance. Oh sorry I cant seem to find it. AcidSnow (talk) 19:49, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

That's ok. Whatever you write there is registered in Misplaced Pages's system anyway, just like in regular talk page messages. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 21:17, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Galaal alphabet

Hi AcidSnow. Just letting you know that Kwamikagami has now removed the Galaal alphabet that you added. If you have a source for the vowels and consonants, please feel free to re-add the table (Omniglot has a slightly different set of characters ). Kindly also join me on the talk page, as the WP:COMMONNAME for the script appears to be "Wadaad's writing" rather than the "Wadaad writing" that the page was moved to. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 17:14, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Re:Culture of Somaliland

Should we also merge the article on Culture of Somaliland with the Culture of Somalia since its the same exact thing, but includes things not on the Somalia page? AcidSnow (talk) 20:41, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

The cultures in the northeast and northwest are virtually identical. There are, though, some minor differences between them and the southern Rahanweyn areas. Give this, the page could be re-directed as well. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 21:04, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Well do so. AcidSnow (talk) 21:17, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Ok, but first be sure to move this dicussion to the talk page. Middayexpress (talk) 21:21, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Italian

Hi AcidSnow. Please note that that language material was originally prepared by a now banned user. It was on one of his trademark fork pages. It's also already covered in a more npov fashion on the relevant Italian Somalis page . It's undue for the languages page, especially since Italian is not an official language and few people speak it now. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 22:16, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Understood. Since you say its neologism should we delete the Libyan and Eritrean pages? AcidSnow (talk) 22:22, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Re-directs to Italian Eritreans and Italian Libyans will do imho. There aren't any demonstrated distinct local Eritrean or Libyan varieties of the Italian language either. Middayexpress (talk) 22:46, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Latin

Hi AcidSnow. This was discussed here. Also have a look at Template:Infobox language. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 21:38, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Re:Demonym vs. ethnonym

Hi AcidSnow. "Somalian" is mainly a demonym, whereas "Somali" serves as both an ethnoym and a demonym. The latter was originally just an ethnonym, and on Misplaced Pages pages titles, etc., that is primarily how it is used. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 21:31, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Format

Hi AcidSnow. Would you mind fixing the coding on this template ? It's broken and the Africa links aren't appearing. The format also appears to be wrong since there's a note there asserting that it is based on the host country's geographic scheme. Despite this, a new username has argued that the continents are divided only based on an east, west, north, south, central scheme. This sort of resembles the UN geoscheme, though not quite since the geoscheme actually has Southeast Asia, Melanesia, Latin America and the Caribbean, etc. Oddly, he has also attempted to group South Sudan with the Horn countries rather than with Sudan. Can you please have a look at these other two temps as well ? Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 21:14, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

The task is complete. AcidSnow (talk) 22:52, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Wouldn't it make more sense, though, to group South Sudan with Sudan? They were still a unitary country only a year or two ago. The population data for the two areas is also often still aggregated abroad. Middayexpress (talk) 22:46, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Your right and it is true about the exaggeration. Here is a claim from the South Sudanese Australians page, "South Sudanese people have been migrating to Australia since 1965, although on very small scale. Only 948 South Sudanese-born persons came prior to 1990." How on earth would anyone know that? AcidSnow (talk) 22:52, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Exactly, unless they were time travelers or something (1990?). Also notice this . Middayexpress (talk) 22:56, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

As it turns out, both cited population figures are also for Sudanese in general, not just South Sudanese as claimed (17,848 by ancestry ; 19,049 by country of birth ). The government didn't have separate data for North and South Sudan since the data was collected in 2006. Middayexpress (talk) 23:06, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Dervish State

Should there be a page about the Somali Resistance Movement or should all of this be included in the Somaliland Campaign? The page mostly discuses things that involved Britain and not Italy. AcidSnow (talk) 21:24, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Hi AcidSnow. The Somaliland Campaign is on the Dervish State's resistance movement in British Somaliland. There wasn't anything comparable to that two decade-long struggle in Italian Somaliland because the ruling Majeerteen Sultanate and Sultanate of Hobyo in the northeast were assured non-interference through treaties they had signed with Italy. Direct rule thus only occurred in central and southern Somalia, where there were no similar local polities in place. By consequence, the central/southern resistance struggle is largely covered on the Sheikh Hassan Barsane page. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 21:32, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Hey

Hey AcidSnow. Would you mind keeping an eye on this page? There have been some issues there with spas & pov. Best, Middayexpress (talk) 21:26, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Sure, if you need anything else just ask. AcidSnow (talk) 23:04, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Great. I'll be sure to. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 15:12, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Re:German-Somali coast

Quite the link there! lol To answer your question, no, it is obviously patent nonsense. There was never any such territory. The only major relation Germany had then with Somalia was as an ally of the Dervishes in the early 20th century. At any rate, you're likely to see lots of similar fantasy pages and just weird stuff in general on that project. It's largely the work of one fellow, a Rwandan/Burundian guy who's obsessed with Horn populations. That's why Germany specifically was chosen (Rwanda/Burundi were part of German East Africa), and why he speaks the language/lives there. He used to troll here too back in the day, well before I even joined. I was told/warned about him by one of the old timers, and now I guess it's my turn to do the same. Cheers, Middayexpress (talk) 13:53, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Italians in Somalia

Italian settlers made a significant number and percent of the population of Italian Somaliland. During World War II, the colony had more than 50,000 Italians settle in the country, constituting about 5% of the total population. This figure does not include the 10's of thousands of Italian soldiers stationed in Somalia at the time. Italians made an even more significant percent of the capital city of Mogadishu; which a city of 50,000 more than 20-22,000 were Italians or 40-44% of the city. Other major cities included Merca, Kismayo, Janale, and Jowhar which was founded by the Italian Prince Luigi Amedeo, Duke of the Abruzzi. In terms of urban areas, the colony was one of the most developed on the continent in terms of standard of living.(Tripodi, Paolo. The Colonial Legacy in Somalia. p. 66)

Many Italians would continue to stay even after Independence with more than 10,000 remaining. They contributed to the building of many things such as telephone poles, a pharmacy, a post office, hospitals, several shops, schools, a police station, and much more. Italy also was one of Somalia's main importers.

In regards to post-colonial ties, Italy was a major supplier in military aid to Somalia. Not only was the aid major Italy provided more military aid to Somalia than any other Western country! Pretty weird for a country that has no significant ties to Somalia, a former colony, is it not? In the year 1979 alone Italy had given a US$40 million aid package to Somalia. Following the Somali Civil War some 2,400 Italian Solders returned to assist in part of the Unified Task Force. They largely operated in Mogadishu and areas around it as seen in this map.

Just recently Italy has also signed a military training agreement with Somalia. More Italian troops have also arrived in Mogadishu to assist the Somali forces. Between 1981 and 2009, Italy provided donor aid totalling approximately 755 million euros which is 1,032,840,000 in US Dollar. Italy has also made significant efforts to improve areas such as health care and reconstruction in Somalia.

Italian and Somali officials would make many diplomatic visits each others country. In 1962, Prime Minster Abdirashid Shermake visited Italy. The Italian foreign minister Emilio Colombo would do the same by visiting Mogadishu in 1979. Hassan Sheikh Mohamud would also visit Italy just last year in 2012 right after he was elected president. Right after his visit to Italy, the Italian Foreign Minister Giulio Terzi made a surprise visit to Somalia. This was also done in 1992 but the minister is not named.

The Italian language also continued to be an official language of the Somali Republic even after Independence. It was later removed during the Said Regime. Although, later on and along with English, Italian was declared a second language of Somalia by the Transitional Federal Government. Somali and Arabic were the official national languages. But, following the adoption of the Provisional Constitution in 2012 by the Federal Government of Somalia, Somali and Arabic were retained as sole official languages.. Italian is still spoken by the elderly, the educated, and many governmental officials.

There are many more things that I could state, but before I do that could you please proved your sources stating the opposite of what I have provided? AcidSnow (talk) 03:40, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

The discussion has been continued on my talk page. AcidSnow (talk) 06:40, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for providing the sources requested. The first paragraph is really the only part of your message which concerns me, for the title of the article in question is "White Africans of European ancestry", not Italy-Somalia relations. You mentioned 50,000 of them settled during World War II, or some 5% of the total colony's population, and 40-44% of the Mogadishu's total. That number seems to have dwindled to under 20,000 after independence.

Now here is the line you wish to alter:

Before the decolonization era, White Africans may have numbered up to 10 million persons and were represented in every part of the continent, especially South Africa (Afrikaners and English), South-West Africa (Afrikaners and Germans), Algeria (Pied-Noir), Rhodesia (predominantly English), Kenya (English), and Angola (Portuguese).

We're discussing white Africans of European ancestry, as in African nationals who identify as white. Most of the Italian settlers you mentioned in your message identified as Europeans and held Italian citizenship. But K, you could argue, so do many of the ethnic groups mentioned in the paragraph! Or do they?

1. South Africa - Strong nationalist movement, Afrikaners' ethnicity unique to Africa, the Dutch colonists made a virtue of calling themselves "Africans" and to a much lesser degree - so did the English speakers. As proven by their actions in politics, SA society, and the economic situation as a whole they are clearly in that country to stay. They have developed a distinctly African culture, way of life, and social structure.

2. South-West Africa - Afrikaners and Germans, South African context applies here because SWA was a South African territory from World War I-onwards. There was a strong nationalist movement in the country for about forty years among the German residents, who wanted an independent white-ruled SWA, which confirms their attachment to Africa and local politics in general. Most of them adopted South African citizenship.

3. Algeria - Again, an ethnicity unique to Africa - Spanish, Italian, French, and Belgian settlers combined into one group whose main uniting factor was their residence in Algeria. There are still some very prominent Pied-Noir cultural organizations in both France and Northern Africa today; I challenge anybody who disagrees that their culture and identity wasn't unique to speak with these groups. One only has to look at a history of the Algerian War to see that they, too, had a nationalist movement and thus a unique tie to their homeland.

Ditto for the other three - Rhodesia, Kenya, and Angola. These are not European expats we're discussing, these are people who for the most part were conceived into families that lived in the respective colonies for generations. They invested their entire lives in the territory of their birth. Again, unique culture, dialects, identity, and nationalism. This is what all the groups have in common. The fact that the Italian population of Somalia dwindled from about 50,000 during World War II and fell to just over 10,000 at independence is proof of how much permanent investment or attachment they held to Somalia. Most of them would have gone back to Italy.

My sources -

The New Information Please Almanac, 1966, twentieth edition, edited by Dan Golenpaul, states that the only significant group of Italians anywhere in Somalia in 1965 were mostly planters (a narrow caste by nature) - there is no mention of the urban class which your source indicates existed just shortly beforehand.

Lands and Peoples, first edition, 1957, African volume by the Grolier Society states very clearly that the visible Italian population in the Somali territories is small and subject to a high turnover rate at that.

Accordingly, I don't think Italians belong anywhere in that first line with all the more prominent groups which have held African citizenship and have a more significant role in the affairs of their post-independence nations. However, you are welcome to add your information to the "Italians in Africa" section, which could certainly use more expansion.

Thanks, --Katangais (talk) 16:10, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Your welcome. But, I did not mean that Italian settlers arrived only during World War 2. What I meant to type was "By" not "During". To say it like that makes it seem like they cared very little about Somaliland since a large percent left after independence. In fact Italians arrived in many different waves of immigration to the colony. Several of immigrants got married in the colony by marring another Italian or a local. Many marriages also resulted in having kids and creating families. Several of these family's had lived in Somaliland for generations. This caused a creation of people with their own unique identity, life and culture, neither Somali or Italian. Several of these individuals would later become prominent in Italy or their respective country they currently reside in. Many Italian Somalis know another Italian Somali including full Italians decedent of settlers too. There's even a recent reunion that took place this year in Italy. I can provide many individuals did, a websites, and videos if you want me to prove something this obvious. There is even a story on this too!

Although many had left, the same can also be said about Kenya where the majority of the 60,000 Whites left after independence. But does that mean they did not have personal investment and/or attachment to Kenya? No, according to you; so couldn't the same be said about Somaliland? Many also held British citizenship although it was illegal.

In regards to personal investment in Italian Somaliland, it was quite significant. Most Italian immigrants are largely decent of poor Italians who came when Italy was facing social and economic disturbances. The same can be said for Somaliland where they were largely involved in the development of the colony ranging from schools to shops and farmers. They even established their own currency to use in Italian Somaliland. Many had also help found and build a whole town called Villaggio Duca degli Abruzzi. All this together is way in terms of urban and residential areas, the colony was one of the most developed on the continent in terms of standard of living. So leaving the colony would have been a doom for them.

As for attachment to Italian Somaliland I give you this:

In Article 23 of the 1947 peace treaty, Italy renounced all rights and titles to Italian Somaliland.

Even though Italy had given up all rights and positions to Somaliland the vast majority of Italians stayed. Why? Because they had grown an attachment to Somaliland. Those that did benefited from Italian and UN aid to the country. Many also hoped to stay and keep Italian Somaliland, a colony they lost tying to protect. Some even proceeded to jail members of the SYL and to fire others from their civil service posts. And about the town I had mentioned before, Villaggio Duca degli Abruzzi, not only was it founded by Italians, but it was originally started by an Italian Prince named Prince Luigi; a prince who not only married a Somali women but willingly lived the last few years of his life in the colony. How is that not a clear example of attachment to Somaliland? He could have lived his life in luxury in Rome but instead choose to help the locals while living in Somaliland!

As for leaving after independence, it was largely due to fear of death and persecution following the recent events in Algeria. Still many of the 10,000 hoped for the best.

As for holding citizenship, the 10,000 that stayed were able to apply for citizenship or some form of visa or stay permit to live in Somalia.

I will agree as of today they do not hold a significant influence as they once did at the start of colonialism and to the fall of the Somali government. But, I do believe that they are largely worth mentioning in the lead.

Sources that cant be linked:

Krause, Chester L., and Clifford Mishler (1991). Standard Catalog of World Coins: 1801–1991 (18th ed.). Krause Publications. ::ISBN 0873411501

Tripodi, Paolo. The Colonial Legacy in Somalia. p. 66

Also sorry if this is hard for you to read I have never been in a wiki debate so my thoughts my hard to follow. AcidSnow (talk) 05:27, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

I think both of you are in a way right. The sentence in question is ostensibly on the largest groups in the decolonization era, which were in Southern and Northwest Africa. Yet Burundi is mentioned, although there were less than 5,000 settlers in German East Africa. There were exponentially more settlers in Italian Somaliland, though the numbers now are negligible. So imho either the sentence should include a mention of the settlers in Italian Somaliland, or be restricted to the period's actual largest such populations in Southern and Northwest Africa. Middayexpress (talk) 15:28, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for contributing to this discussion Middayexpress. I will go ahead and include Italian Somaliland in the lead unless Katangais has anything more to discuss about this subject. AcidSnow (talk) 23:16, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

*sigh* leave me a message on my talk page informing me of the response, Acid. Please do it. I receive and contribute to a lot of correspondence and can't always keep track of every discussion. The majority of white Kenyans did not leave after independence, according to Kenya: A Country Study by the Washington Institute. Provide a source on that or it's out the window. Furthermore, the 1933 edition of Encyclopedia Britannica states very clearly that they wanted their own country in Kenya.

Somali-born Italian numbers in present Somalia are negligible. You're right, they do stay together as a community and have reunions elsewhere. But you don't see them every day in Mogadishu any more, do you? Unlike all of the other ethnic groups mentioned in the lead. Midday, Burundi is mentioned only because the Belgians were forced to leave by its post-independence government. The sentence we're discussing names the most significant ethnic groups of white Africans in descending order (Algeria, Angola, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Namibia). Acid has covered all the same ground again without addressing my logic. Italians in Somalia are significant in their own way, and unique to that country to a degree. But their modern-day impact isn't nearly as viable as the others named, they never formed one of the largest white communities in Africa, and therefore we don't need them to be thrown in with the lead. There were 10,000 Afrikaners and Anglo-Africans in Tanzania who stayed on until present day, but you don't see them mentioned there either.

In short, Acid, Italians in Somalia belong elsewhere in the article - like the subsection entitled "Italians in Africa". They do not belong in the lead with all the much larger, more famous, white African communities which have received a disproportionate amount of study and attention. You wrote, I will agree as of today they do not hold a significant influence as they once did at the start of colonialism and to the fall of the Somali government. This is precisely why they don't belong in the lead; again, per Tanzania. - Thanks, --Katangais (talk) 01:22, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

"Provide a source on that or it's out the window.", what are you talking about? I clearly provided a source for this and its linked right next to it like all of my other ones. If you were some how not able to see it then here it is again: . As for the 1933 edition of Encyclopedia Britannica it was published way before the Independence of Kenya which makes it weigh much less than it use too. Also the Kenya: A Country Study does not even state whether they choose to leave or not. If they had chosen to stay could you explain why according to the Kenyan Population and Housing Census only 27,172 Kenyans citizens are of European origins which is less than half of the figure in 1962 before independence? Also, could you please provide a source for Tanzania or like you said "it's out the window". I have taken the time to do this on my own and I found few source that discuss any significant Europeans immigration to Tanzania besides those of the German; even if they do few of the discuss Afrikaners in Tanzania. One source does BUT it say that the vast majority those Afrikaners choose not to stay in Tanzania after independence; which is completely different from what you have said. I am also unable to find any reliable source that say there were 10,000 people of Afrikaners and Anglo-Africans or any other European origins in Tanzania before independence. So your use of Tanzania as an example is completely useless.

"leave me a message on my talk page informing me of the respons", I originally started this discussion on your page so you could see it since you and I quote "receive and contribute to a lot of correspondence and can't always keep track of every discussion.". It was your decision to move the discussion to my page instead; now making it more "difficult" for you to track.

"they never formed one of the largest white communities in Africa", actually that is somewhat true but they still did. The Italian population was more than 5% of the colony which was higher than Zimbabwe and Angola which are also two countries stated in the lead. As for numbers, they were not as high as South Africa and Algeria; countries which has seen European Immigration much longer and earlier than Somalia has. As for lack of visibility the many reason and a clearly noticeable one is due to large scale violence in the country, not social, economical, or political reasons as seen with other African countries. This is why Italians Somalis can not return or even have their reunions there. I also think that this should be added to the lead since it much more unique than any other country in Africa. AcidSnow (talk) 06:37, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Acid, don't take this all the wrong way. But the Kenya Country Study that you've sourced (and the one available online at both the former countrystudies web site, the Marine Corps, and the US Department of Defense) is a later edition. They update them every few years or so. Speaking of which, the Country Study for Southern Rhodesia notes that whites in Zim made up 10% of the population when they were considering South African integration, which was 1923. Furthermore, I couldn't see your Kenya link - I have to actually read the editing version of the page and type in the HTML to access it. Don't unload on me for that.

The reason why only about 27,000 Kenyan citizens or so identify as white is because the majority of white Kenyans chose to retain British passports, like the majority of Asians. They are Kenyans by birth, but not by nationality. The 1933 Encyclopedia is a remarkably accurate and well-researched piece of literature; certainly better than any Britannica I could have picked off the shelves in recent years. That's why I sourced it. Do I need to point out that some of the information in your sources are even older? AFAIK it was never my intention to get into a childish "my source is better than yours!" fretfest. If that's the manner I've come across to you, I sincerely apologise.

As for 10,000 whites in Tanzania I can source that to the Compton Collection (of Yearbooks), which date from 1959 until 1965. Tanzania gained independence somewhere in that time period, and Compton indicates that the majority of white residents were Anglo-Africans of British descent, followed by Afrikaners, and only a few hundred Germans. Most of the Germans were deported after World War I and only 300 indicated any special desire to return. Their farms, businesses, and the like were taken over by British colonials - according to the 1933 Britannica. Anyway, Compton claims that between 10,000 and 20,000 whites chose to stay in the country after independence. There's your source. It's actually true that most of the Afrikaners emigrated, as did most of the English for that matter. But at least 10,000 of these people opted for continued residence. According to the Bush Rebels by Barbara Cornwall, in Dar Es Salaam you can still meet quite a few in certain pubs and hotels if you know where to look.

Let's go over this line in the lead which you want to change: Before the decolonization era, White Africans may have numbered up to 10 million persons and were represented in every part of the continent, especially South Africa (Afrikaners and English), South-West Africa (Afrikaners and Germans), Algeria (Pied-Noir), Rhodesia (predominantly English), Kenya (English), and Angola (Portuguese). Each of these groups can be measured by two things: numbers and modern significance. 6,000,000 white South Africans (The Great Betrayal, by Ian Smith), 100,000 white Namibians (Namibia: The Nation after Independence by December Green), close to 2,000,000 Pied-Noir (Compton, 1962), 300,000 white Rhodesians (Southern Rhodesia: A Country Study), 60,000 white Kenyans (Compton, 1964), and about 400,000 white Angolans (Britannica's Yearbook 1975). South Africans, Angolans, and Algerians are significant because of their exceptional numbers. Kenyans and Namibians are significant because they continue to own a disproportionate amount of the land (although in this regard they are no longer the majority). Zimbabweans are significant because they have the unique Rhodesian legacy of UDI behind them and until fairly recently, as in Kenya, owned a disproportionate amount of the land. What did the Italians in Somalia do? Well, at one point they may have numbered up to 50,000 - and 10,000 decided to stay beyond independence. I understand that they can't hold reunions inside the country now due to the violence, but that still makes them expats rather than resident nationals. They do not hold any significant influence in modern 2013 Somalia and lack the massive historical numbers to warrant mention there. I know you feel they belong in the lead, but it would disrupt the continuity of the other ethnic groups represented. Six of the major ones is good enough. Look, we can't include every white African group in that particular sentence and to be fair somebody else could make many of your same arguments for others, including Tanzanians. Since you do have excellent sources, I recommend changing the subsection entitled "Italians in Africa" instead of altering the lead. We've spent too long discussing that one particular sentence.

Thanks, --Katangais (talk) 17:11, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

I accept your apology and I only assumed you did because it seemed like you thought you were "better" than me in certain parts of your messages. But, since you apologies I will take it as if you never mean to.

Italian settlers were not just farmers in Somalia they also held most colonial government post and were also allowed in the Territorial Consul since they were reserved seats even after Italy ended its colonial rule. Many were also businessmen and several were soldiers establishing things such as the Royal Corps of Somali Colonial Troops to protect the colony and bring order to it(later became the Somali Army), the Regia Azienda Monopolio Banane; a banana company in Somalia, the Italo-Somali Agricultural Society, schools to educate the Somalis and many other things. All this would create a stable middle class in Somalia..

They were also allowed to establish political parties and organizations that were even allowed to be pro-Italian rule. The largest one they supported was the HDM party which would go on to earn 26% of the votes in the 1956 elections which I believe to be quite high.. They even held protests and rallies for their desire to stay and rule Somalia with some turning quite violent. The British had also recognized the Italians would be needed to stay in order to keep the economy going.

As you can see they held major influence in Somalia, but like you and I said "They do not hold any significant influence in modern 2013 Somalia and lack the massive historical numbers to warrant mention there.". So all of these even them being in favor of stay and ruling Somalia is pretty much nothing as of now besides the Somalis being thankful for their assistance. Many of these were also key reason why I wanted to include them since they were very significant in Somalia but since it is a requirement like you said for them to still hold it they should not be included in that sentence.

Is it fine if we include something like this instead or should we abandon it?: "However, many of them have left during and after the independence of the colonies. For example, the Italians in Libya and the Belgians in Burundi were expelled by post-colonial governments. As for the Italians in Somalia their departure was due to instability and violence in the country following the Somali Civil War not political and social reasons as seen with other countries." Since I still think they are worth mentioning in the lead but not in that particular sentence.

I also think that some also viewed that they were going to be expelled as seen with Libya. This would also explain the drop in the population flowing Said Barres nationalization of all schools, organizations, the official languages and other things in Somalia. AcidSnow (talk) 22:41, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Look better now? By the way, instead of having to write me individual reminders you really need this:

Thanks, --Katangais (talk) 18:18, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, ok. AcidSnow (talk) 18:44, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Ajuuraan Sultanate

Hi AcidSnow. Please note that the Ajuuraan Sultanate's domain extended from Mareeg in the north, to Qallaafo in the west, to Barawa in the south. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 21:26, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

What? I thought we discussed this already? AcidSnow (talk) 21:33, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

We did, but the sultanates and kingdoms map you just linked to still contained the wrong boundaries, as well as inaccurate populations to the south. Look how much farther the sultanate's domain extends past its actual northern and western frontiers . Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 16:24, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Sorry my bad. AcidSnow (talk) 16:46, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Re:Middle Africa

As I understand it, Middle Africa is basically just the UN geoscheme's name for Central Africa. It's certainly the less common term for the region, though. The two pages should therefore probably be merged, with Central Africa as the common name page. Have you discussed this with the user? Middayexpress (talk) 20:06, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

He/she has yet to respond for his edit to the Southeast Africa page. When I said "valid" I was not referring to the UN definition but his/her creation of a new region called Middle Africa. Also I moved the discussion to here here. AcidSnow (talk) 20:10, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

And I presume you know the editor is now blocked. Dougweller (talk) 11:36, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but it is indefinite so I assume he can come back right? Also cant he/she just make another account? AcidSnow (talk) 16:24, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

In this case indefinite probably means forever. Creating a new account to edit is against the rules, but in fact he has I believe, see ]]Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Johnjohnjames]]. But I think we can deal with him. Dougweller (talk) 18:46, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

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Fyi

Hi AcidSnow. There's a user on the Somali people page who has claimed that Somalis are "predominantly Sunni Muslim, with a christian minority and an unknown number of agnostics and atheists". This is attributed to Mohamed Diriye Abdullahi, who actually states that Somalis are pretty much all Muslim. He has also been trying to add an image of Hirsi Ali to a section of the page reserved for everyday Somalis. I've explained to him that she is a controversial, disliked figure, and that other controversial figures were omitted as well, as per convention on other pages (e.g. at Syrian people). Would you mind having a look? Best, Middayexpress (talk) 20:25, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Abdihakim Abdullahi Haji Omar

Hi AcidSnow. Please note that the page has been renamed Abdihakim Abdullahi Haji Omar, so the other name needs disambiguation. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 20:48, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I saw your edits; I had thought you made a typo. AcidSnow (talk) 20:49, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Nah, no typo; that's his actual name . I was about to move the page accordingly. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 20:58, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Ok, you had two different links so I was not sure with was right, my bad. AcidSnow (talk) 21:05, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

That's alright. I at first thought that was his name too. Cheers, Middayexpress (talk) 21:59, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Re:Somaliland

It's quite complicated, but you raise some interesting points. I wasn't aware of the shilling issue. Are you sure about that? Middayexpress (talk) 22:17, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but I am unable to find my original link. But, this been happening for a while such as in 2011 when they burned 3 billion Somali shilings after announcing they would force the people in the disputed territories to use it. It really is politically stable is it not?..

Though the SomalilandPost is unreliable source (claims its shilling is twice the value and is is pro-Somaliland) it also mentions how they are forcing it upon them. The currency is also technically made up of 100 cents but they has never been any coins issued for this.

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Bab-el-Mandeb

Should the article on Bab-el-Mandeb be separated into two different articles: the strait and the sub-region? Or should it be expanded on like the Maghreb? AcidSnow (talk) 23:42, 18 January 2014 (UTC) EDIT: I have just realized that there is no source for the region. AcidSnow (talk) 23:42, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

The subregion is defined by the strait, so it's alright. What nations border the Red Sea is more interesting imo. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 23:48, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Understood. AcidSnow (talk) 00:11, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Figures

Hi Acidsnow. A user added a passage on the purported autism rates of Somali children in Minneapolis. I believe the material is inappropriate for the reasons explained here. As one of the main WikiProject Somalia members, your input would be appreciated. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 14:46, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Arab Jews and other non-Arab Americans of the Arab World

I have no problem in specifying them as "Mizrahi Jews" rather than just "Jews". But then why the distinction. We also have mizrahi music which i develop also with adding many new names. Many even sing in Arabic. By the way, I attended an event about the Jews of the Arab World in Canada and more than two thirds of the Canadian Jews present were from Lebanon, Syria and Egypt and said their roots go back for at least hundreds of years and they've never been to Israel but came straight to Canada in the forties and fifties even some in the mid-sixties after the 1967 War. They were also acceptably arabophone and took pride in their Arabic culture. In fact, just the fact that you added Paula Abdul which I removed is an example of this. Paula Abdul is a Jew of the Arab World and American.. part of her family is from Aleppo, Syria although I objected to calling her an "American Arab" for obvious reasons. That's why I removed it after discussing this in the talk page. As to being specifc for "Mizrahi" Jews, this is a slippery road actually for other Arab American communities as well. Take the Armenian Americans who are not the Armenians of Armenia but rather the Ottoman Armenians of the Middle East. So in the same breath as Mizrahi Jews, should we specify "Ottoman Armenians"? You see the pitfalls of this. Same for Kurds. These are certainly not Kurds of Iran say but Kurds from Iraq or Syria. Should we specify? How about Circassians or Turkmens of the Arab World now in America.... So somehow I find it counter-productive. But if you insist on Mizrahi Jews, so be it

Incidentally I wasn't the one who removed Ralph Nader by the way. In fact I was the one who added it until some other colleague said he was "Greek", failing to see the difference between ethnic Greeks which he isn't and culturally Arab "Greek Orthodox Antiochians" who are very Lebanese and Syrian and Palestinian. In fact I added Ralph Nader back myself if you notice. Another reason we wanted changes in faces was the objection of some of putting "White Arabs" meaning Lebanese Syrian or mixed Arab European ethnicities and alleged intentional effort on our part in not reflecting more brown and black Arab faces from say Egypt, Sudan or the Maghreb countries. So many Lebanese and Syrians or mixed origin had to give way to reflect those of more diverse backgrounds. That's the only reason. You should also know that I am one of the most persistent editors of the page and second biggest contributor in addition to following the Lebanese American page and listings. werldwayd (talk) 02:45, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Re:

Khabboos

Is this the proper way to inform a user of his inappropriate edits? The user is Khabboos and could please take a look at my message on his talkpage? AcidSnow (talk) 23:09, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Why are you asking me this? Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 23:13, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

You are a very helpful user? I am just asking if this is the right way to inform a user that has already been informed by others. AcidSnow (talk) 23:30, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

I see. Middayexpress (talk) 23:45, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

I am sorry if I have begun to make you mad or irritate you. AcidSnow (talk) 23:53, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

No worries; you haven't. I've just come to a realization, that's all. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 00:26, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

January 2014 - Mashriq

I think that if we try to be precise, as you want to be, we have to remove also that old and unclear Ottoman map and to find (or if can to create one) to represent better what is written in the article. I will remove it, it will be better to have only the text description and not this unclear map. (And btw IPs 99.240.220.159 and 109.124.167.153 are not mine and if I want to change/remove something I use my own username) Sprayitchyo (talk) 19:42, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

]

Please have a look at Voltaire Islam section. I am struggling to make the case that you cannot just add tags and take issue with things without demonstrating clear arguments. The editor has even tried to say Voltaire positive remarks about Islam are Fringe--despite ref. --Inayity (talk) 18:11, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Advise for Jayapala

Bring to talk page, and notify the other editor too. If you like. Bladesmulti (talk) 03:49, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Persecution of Traditional African Religion

I see that you are one of the contributors to this article. I have done some heavy editing as it is in a field that I am someone what of an expert in. The article is terrible to say the least and I 100% believe its entire creation was the part of a campaign across wikipedia. A campaign which will soon come to a sudden end. Please continue to watch it and get the quality up --Inayity (talk) 12:34, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

I have nothing to do with the article (only made minor changes) it was created and edited almost entirely by Bladesmulti and Andajara120000 which would explain everything. But anyways I will see what I can do. AcidSnow (talk) 20:48, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Tihama

Hi AcidSnow. A user added some material to the Yemen page claiming that the historic field slaves in the area who cultivated date palms were from the Horn, and were Habesha specifically. He also asserted on his talk page that the descendants of these slaves are the Tihama and Al-Akhdam. I tried explaining to him that the slaves were actually Shanqella, and that genetics demonstrate this too. Your input would be appreciated here. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 22:19, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Ok, I have already read the discussion up to "I hope we have and understanding" prig to your message. It seems that you are a right. I will join in a bit. AcidSnow (talk) 22:59, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. He just reverted this same misleading nonsense back into the page, though. This user is also the same as User:Kendite (please see here). Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 23:30, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Saleban Person

It's unfortunate that you have to propagate a false image of Somalis for the purpose of elevating own your clan along with your unscrupulous associates who engaged in a sustained assault on my edits on the Somali people page. Regardless of whether you or your fellows are moderators, it is pitiable that you abuse your roles of responsibility and use it as a platform to disseminate and placard warped representations of Somalis for your own personal gain. Saleban person (talk) 15:39, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

What....? First of all, no one can see your picture so I dont understand your reverts. Second, everyone in the infobox are not from the same clan. How could there even be clan dominance when we don't know the clan of most of these people? I am really hoping your just spamming us on purpose. AcidSnow (talk) 16:50, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

You don't know the clan of "most of those people" because that's what happens when people stick their nose in something they know nothing about.

1st row: Muhammad Abdullah Hassan - Darood Fatima Jibrell - Darood Mohamed Abdullahi Mohamed - Darood Asli Hassan Abade - Darood 2nd row: Hanan Ibrahim - Isaaq Hadraawi - Isaaq Iman - Darood Sultan Yusuf Ali Kenadid - Darood Aar Maanta - Darood Sultan Mohamoud Ali Shire - Darood Osman Yusuf Kenadid - Darood Nuruddin Farah - Darood

I hope you know now. Not a single Hawiye person—who have contributed to Somaia the most and are the most dominant clan there military, politically and financially because someone has a grudge and has decided to exercise it through cheap propaganda. Saleban person (talk) 18:05, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

1. Nicolle, David, "The Italian Invasion of Abyssinia 1935–1936", p. 41