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:::::Primary sources (which also show him in red and blue, BTW) are not the issue. Do "reliable, '''secondary''' sources commonly and consistently define" Spider-Man as an inventor, Batman as a psychologist, Wonder Woman as a polygraph examiner, Darth Vader as an abolitionist, etc.? ] - ] (]) 19:38, 5 February 2014 (UTC) | :::::Primary sources (which also show him in red and blue, BTW) are not the issue. Do "reliable, '''secondary''' sources commonly and consistently define" Spider-Man as an inventor, Batman as a psychologist, Wonder Woman as a polygraph examiner, Darth Vader as an abolitionist, etc.? ] - ] (]) 19:38, 5 February 2014 (UTC) | ||
Also being discussed at ] - ] (]) 23:08, 5 February 2014 (UTC) | Also being discussed at ] - ] (]) 23:08, 5 February 2014 (UTC) | ||
== Should spiderman be listed under Categories:Highschools in fiction? == | |||
How important is highschool to the story of spiderman? ] (]) 01:43, 6 February 2014 (UTC) |
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To-do list for Spider-Man: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2023-07-29
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Species
Could a better term be used than Human Mutate, which is a fan term but which might be confusing to someone who does not regularly read comics. What about something like "Superpowered Human" or something of that sort. Mutate is an awfully strange word for the average person. Remember, these are fictional terms and this is a general audience article, not the Marvel Universe Handbook. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beanlynch (talk • contribs) 06:38, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
- I agree that "Human Mutate" is a bad term, but I don't know if "Superpowered Human" is the correct term either. Since "Human Mutate" is used in a lot of comic book articles on Misplaced Pages the best place for this to be debated is actually on the Comics WikiProject talk page. Spidey104 18:33, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
- What do you call the Fantastic Four, or others that got their powers through an accident? Dream Focus 17:14, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
One More Day
There should not be two to three paragraphs about the One More Day Storyline backstory in Fictional Character Biography. This stops the flow and this would be better stated in another section. What is already there stating it was "controversial" says it all. If this subject deserves its own topic, there could be a link to that. Also, the facts provided were confusing and somewhat misleading. The conflict between J Michael Straczynski and Marvel was about the science fiction elements of the story, not about the survival of the marriage. That is implied to be the issue to be dispute by what was written and it has been documented that that was not the issue of debate. Lets please discuss this further before this is added back into the text the way it was previously written. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beanlynch (talk • contribs) 06:31, 26 November 2013
- One More Day drastically altered the story, so it deserves slightly more coverage. I don't think information about that section should be expanded beyond what it already is, but I also don't think it should be significantly shortened either. Breaking it into a separate section would make the flow even worse since that would break the chronological flow of the section. Spidey104 18:40, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
- It drastically altered the story as compared to what? When Steve Ditko left the book. We could have a couple of paragraphs about the disagreements between the creators. This is all behind the scenes information. It does not belong here!!! It is obviously a hot button issue and it could use some coverage, there are only a few paragraphs here covering a fifty year history, and the back story behind this one storyline completely interrupts the flow of the fictional history of the character. It would be better in a section about criticism or behind the scenes. I'm not going to delete it again, but it should not be here!!!
- It's also misleading about the way it was written. It reads like JMS had a problem with undoing the marriage. The issues between him and Marvel were more over the way the story was done. It's confusing and misleading (purposeful or not) and really has very little to do with the fictional character history. --beanlynch (talk)
- Yes, it should be here. The reason is that even the "Fictional character biography" section needs to be written from a real-world perspective. A real-world perspective means that when available from reliable sources we give the real-life creative reasons for the decisions affecting the fictional story. This is well-established — as I've noted — at the Misplaced Pages guidelines for Writing About Fiction, as well as by archived discussions here and elsewhere, if you would please look at them.
- Moreover, we do not simply remove chunks of a Good Article willy-nilly. That text and that section were there when this article passed GA. That means at least one admin and possibly more, as well as multiple editors, reached consensus on this. Your opinion notwithstanding, it was the opinion of numerous contributors that the text there was pertinent, well-cited and encyclopedic.
- May I ask that when adding comments to a talk page, you indent your posts and also sign them, using a dash and four tildes. Thank you. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:41, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
I'm not going to alter this section myself again, however I'm hopeful that discussion will lead to this being revised for the sake of making this a more useful entry.
I understand what you are saying, and I agree with them, to the point that this is a fictional character and if you were to present fictional information as if it were real history that would be problematic. And I think it's very effective to provide real world references within an article. I'm not debating that point at all.
There are two issues I have with this being included the way it is. The first is the one that you aren't addressing. There are ten paragraphs of the fictional character biography here. Two and a half paragraphs are focusing on this topic and two of those paragraphs are focused on the backstory without adding anything to the fictional biography. I understand what you say that you think this is more important than other changes in history, but as I stated above, there were disputes when the original creators of Spider-Man parted ways and I would argue that that is just as important if not more (considering it was a dispute between the actual creators of the character). You could also say the same thing about the backstory involving the Clone Saga which was just as controversial at the time. We could include all of that information, but that wouldn't make for a good fictional character biography. In order for a fictional character biography to be useful it has to flow. This breaks up the flow.
The other issue I have with it is that I think it confuses some of the facts of this story. The issue that J Michael Straczynski had with the editorial choices made by Marvel were about the logic of the scientific fiction elements of the retcon, not whether or not Spider-Man's marriage should be undone. What I see is that a fragment of one piece is being lumped in with a fragment to another which confuses the context of the issue. I actually think this issue is worth sorting out and documenting. But I think if you go into it in the fictional character biography it weighs the function of that section down. Perhaps a link could be provided to another section as reference point.
I appreciate that there have been ongoing debates about these issues. I don't mean to step on your toes and I'll engage in a dialogue before I change anything else and won't change anything myself that is in dispute. But I do think that a ten paragraph section on a 50 year character history should not have more than two paragraphs on one piece of it.--beanlynch (talk)
- Please learn to indent. It makes it easier on all of us. Just put one or more colons immediately before the first letter of each paragraph.
- I agree with you that background on Ditko's departure would be nice to see added. I think the issue may be that there has never been a definitive reason given, only theories without confirmation.
- Background on the Clone Saga is given in the FCB. It's not set off as a blockquote, which is perhaps why you missed it.
- RE: "In order for a fictional character biography to be useful it has to flow. This breaks up the flow." First, no: In order for a fictional character biography to read well, it has to flow. But the section is still useful if all the facts are pertinent and accurate, even if the writing style could be improved. Style and content are two different things. And secondly, it is only your opinion that current text breaks up the flow. My opinion and that of at least one other editor in this discussion is different. Please do not make statements like "It breaks up the flow" as if this were objective fact and not subjective opinion.
- Finally, a reboot of the entire continuity, erasing a character's marriage, the death of his best friend, public knowledge of his real identity and much, much else that had been fundamental to 40-some years of storytelling at that point is major, and the reasoning behind any such extraordinary change would seem unquestionably pertinent. --Tenebrae (talk) 02:02, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
- Beanlynch, I think your problem is that the more recent One More Day seems to have more coverage than Ditko's departure or the Clone Saga. Those are older issues so it is harder to find references for those. If you are able to find reliable references that would be acceptable to Misplaced Pages standards to expand those sections it would improve the article, but please check here or on Tenebrae's talk page before adding them to the article to verify they are appropriate.
- I also concur with Tenebrae that you need to start using colons to indent your comments; it is standard Misplaced Pages style and helps other editors visually see where one editor's comments end and another editor's comments begin. Also, please sign and date your posts to talk pages by using ~~~~ at the end of your posts. Thank you! Spidey104 14:47, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
Relationship with Mary Jane
In the fourth paragraph of the fictional character biography it states "Working through his grief, Parker eventually develops tentative feelings toward Watson, and the two "become confidants rather than lovers"." This is not entirely accurate. Peter Parker and Mary Jane became a couple in Amazing Spider-Man #143 (April 1975) when they kissed as Peter was about to get on a jet to go to Paris. That relationship lasted until Peter's first proposal to Mary Jane in Amazing Spider-Man #182 (July 1978) and her turning him down and leaving town in Amazing Spider-Man #183 (August 1978). Mary Jane was then absent from the series for years and doesn't return until five years later in the last page of Amazing Spider-Man #242 (July 1983). That was the beginning of the friendship where they became "confidants rather than lovers", which was progressed by the groundbreaking revelation/retcon in Amazing Spider-Man #259 (December 1984) that Mary Jane had know Spider-Man's identity since the night that he went after the burglar who killed Uncle Ben in Amazing Fantasy #15 (as told in Spider-Man Parallel Lives Graphic Novel). I propose this section be revised.--beanlynch (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:54, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
- "become confidants rather than lovers" is a verbatim quote from respected comic historian Peter Sanderson's book. In fact, I believe Peter was in-house Marvel historian for several years. You're welcome to your opinion, but Misplaced Pages doesn't allow the type of personal analysis and original-research synthesis as you offer in your post here. We cite published reliable sources — preferably, acknowledged, authoritative experts in a given field.
- That said, I'll pull the book down off my shelf and check that its information was transcribed correctly to the article. It may be something as simple as that. --Tenebrae (talk) 02:10, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
- OK, I've checked. Nothing Sanderson writes is contradicted by the chronology you give — he's simply writing in broader, more general terms. In the interest of compromise, however, I've added an academic journal's citation for the #182-183 proposal and rebuff, using it to cite a sentence that reflects what seems your essential point above. --Tenebrae (talk) 02:28, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
- They were married for awhile there, before someone decided to just undo that, making it more interesting for them to just be friends. Surely in the years they were married in the comic book, they were lovers. And I'm not sure, but weren't they living together before then at times? Dream Focus 17:07, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
Spider-Man is a fictional spider
Spider-Man is a fictional spider for the same reason Cell from dragon ball is apparently a fictional insect. This is particularly evident when he Man Spider. CensoredScribe (talk) 21:29, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
- He is not a "fictional spider" because he isn't a spider. - SummerPhD (talk) 15:14, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
- He is a man who has temporarily transformed into an appearance that greatly resembled a spider. Spidey104 14:16, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Is Spiderman being an inventor vital to his personality.
I believe web shooters are fairly central to the original Spiderman's character. CensoredScribe (talk) 14:59, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
- Reliable sources do not commonly and consistently define Spider-Man as being an inventor.Misplaced Pages:Categories#Articles - SummerPhD (talk) 15:24, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
- He invents other things, sometimes doing that in the comic book and cartoon series in order to defeat a major enemy. Does that rather often. He also worked as an inventor for a company recently for years, then with Doc Ock taking over his body and being Superior Spider-Man has been working as an inventor for his own company. So yeah, that is rather notable aspect of the Spider-man character, as Peter Parker and as Doc Ock. Dream Focus 17:04, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
- Next up: Category:Fictional characters who wear red and blue. Do reliable sources commonly and consistently define Spider-Man as being an inventor? "Spider-Man is a superhero inventor who wears red and blue." - SummerPhD (talk) 18:04, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
- This is a notable characteristics, while color of his outfit is not. And there isn't an automatic Google search for comic book reliable sources so its hard to check how times someone talked about him as an inventor or mentioned his inventions. Since they review every issue these days, and many have him inventing something new to fight an enemy, I'm sure it gets coverage. Dream Focus 18:30, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
- Primary sources (which also show him in red and blue, BTW) are not the issue. Do "reliable, secondary sources commonly and consistently define" Spider-Man as an inventor, Batman as a psychologist, Wonder Woman as a polygraph examiner, Darth Vader as an abolitionist, etc.? Misplaced Pages:Overcategorization#Non-defining_characteristics - SummerPhD (talk) 19:38, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
- This is a notable characteristics, while color of his outfit is not. And there isn't an automatic Google search for comic book reliable sources so its hard to check how times someone talked about him as an inventor or mentioned his inventions. Since they review every issue these days, and many have him inventing something new to fight an enemy, I'm sure it gets coverage. Dream Focus 18:30, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
- Next up: Category:Fictional characters who wear red and blue. Do reliable sources commonly and consistently define Spider-Man as being an inventor? "Spider-Man is a superhero inventor who wears red and blue." - SummerPhD (talk) 18:04, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
- He invents other things, sometimes doing that in the comic book and cartoon series in order to defeat a major enemy. Does that rather often. He also worked as an inventor for a company recently for years, then with Doc Ock taking over his body and being Superior Spider-Man has been working as an inventor for his own company. So yeah, that is rather notable aspect of the Spider-man character, as Peter Parker and as Doc Ock. Dream Focus 17:04, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
Also being discussed at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Comics#Super_hero.27s_and_villains_should_fall_under_several_categories_when_applicable - SummerPhD (talk) 23:08, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
Should spiderman be listed under Categories:Highschools in fiction?
How important is highschool to the story of spiderman? CensoredScribe (talk) 01:43, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
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