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Film: American C‑class

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A fact from In a World... appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the Did you know column on 9 August 2013 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows: Did you know... that Lake Bell wrote the female-protagonist-driven In a World... after being intrigued that the prototypical movie trailer voice was male? A record of the entry may be seen at Misplaced Pages:Recent additions/2013/August. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/In a World....

Query

Is this nationwide thing a part of sundance now?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:22, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

"Tetralogy" vs. "Quadrilogy"

Everyone in the film uses "quadrilogy", but the correct word is "tetralogy". My take is that the synopsis should use the correct term since it's not "in universe". - Richfife (talk) 18:06, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Keep it simple: it is a "series". Done. -- 109.78.178.110 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:28, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Request for Comment

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

To be clear the content at issue is this--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:53, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

P.S. I withdraw my challenge of the top 10 list content based on my 21:06, 30 December 2013 (UTC) comment earlier. Phoenix Film Society remains at issue.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:58, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

• Dozens of films appear on the top-10 list of one newspaper or other each year. Is mention of this film on two small-city papers' lists notable or WP:INDISCRIMINATE, as opposed to the top-10 list of a recognized authority such as the National Board of Review?
  • This question makes no sense since it implies that you would either list the newspapers or the National Board, when in fact the prior version of article stated "The film has been recognized in various top 10 film list for 2013, including Carrie Rickey, Sean P. Means of the The Salt Lake Tribune and Joe Williams of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. The film was recognized by the National Board of Review as one of the top 10 independent films of 2013." before you removed the relevant content. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TonyTheTiger (talk • contribs) 18:58, 29 December 2013
  • Oppose inclusion The question makes perfect sense. Dozens of films get on some small or medium-sized newspaper's list every year. That's such a broad swath, how is it possibly notable that the Salt Lake City or St. Petersburg, Fla. or Sioux Falls, S.D., newspaper liked one of these dozens of films? A singular organization, very notable in the film industry, is a completely different thing. It's apples and oranges. And lumping apples and oranges together is what makes no sense. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:32, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
    • No one knows what you are opposing because you have made the disputed content unclear. Can you clarify that you oppose the inclusion of "The film has been recognized in various top 10 film list for 2013, including Carrie Rickey, Sean P. Means of the The Salt Lake Tribune and Joe Williams of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch."--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:45, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
• Second, is it WP:INDISCRIMINATE to list every award and nomination given by every film club and small-city critics group, such as the Phoenix (Arizona) Film Critics Society? 17:51, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
  • I don't know why you are using an external link when the Phoenix Film Critics Society has a wikilink.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:40, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

• I suspect because it's a poor article we have that gives no background at all about the Society or the award. At least the Society's own page explains exactly who they are. - SchroCat (talk) 20:54, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

• We had a brief discussion about this on Skyfall (see Talk:Skyfall/Archive 5#Awards/Accolades Table) and the consensus was to avoid putting in the pointless minor awards of various insignificant groups, which is something I'd agree with. - SchroCat (talk) 19:20, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Is Phoenix Film Critics Society now non-notable?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:29, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
    • SchroCat could you state your opinion on the two types of removed content at issue here (Top 10 list content, and Phoenix Film Critics Society awards).--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:04, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
• I've been asked here and on my talk page to clarify my !vote:
  
  • Oppose inclusion of top 10 lists from individual journalists/groups: aggregated versions may be acceptable, on a case-by-case basis.
  • Oppose inclusion of small/non-entity awards. I appreciate we appear to have some general agreement on referring to people or groups where we have an article, but our own article tells us absolutely nothing, and the membership fills me with dread and horror that this is somehow considered "notable". The "SchroCat Film Awards" would be a more compelling inclusion to make!
  • Strong oppose of the use of the phrase "critical acclaim" (as appears in the removed content at issue: too far into WP:PEACOCKery for my liking): let the balanced selection of reviews point the way. - SchroCat (talk) 10:00, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

• • This has been discussed at length elsewhere. Just because a film club or a critics' society is notable enough to have a Misplaced Pages article doesn't mean that every pronouncement, award or nomination they make is notable. Phoenix is neither a center of film culture nor a hotbed of nationally known critics. Have you actually looked at its roster? It includes: "George Grorud, Retired"; "Mike Massie Joel Massie, GoneWiththeTwins.com"; "Frances Rimsza, Retired"; "Shana Schwarz, The Foothills Focus" weekly shopper; "Dawn Underwood, Movienighttrafficlight.com"; and more like that, along with a couple of local TV stations. Non-professional retirees, weekly shoppers, non-notable websites. About the only noteworthy critics are two from The Arizona Republic newspaper, and they're not exactly Kevin Thomas or Manohla Dargis. You're not going to find the situation much different at Salt Lake City City, Albuquerque or Portland, Maine. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:47, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

• Can we be a bit more clear with exactly what information might be added to/excluded from the article? I haven't looked at the article history for details, but it seems that this film hasn't received much recognition so I don't think it can hurt to include whatever recognition it did received from professional critics. --Loeba (talk) 19:59, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
  • This is the removed content at issue.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:40, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

• • • As noted above, the Phoenix critics include non-professional retirees and critics whose "professional" credentials are technical at best: self-published websites and free local weekly shoppers. That's not even the same creature as the New York Film Critics Circle. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:52, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

• • • • As a contributor based in Europe I know little of the pecking order of North American media outlets, but I think it would be helpful to our readers to cite papers etc internationally recognised as noteworthy, and avoid minor ones whenever possible. Whether the one at issue is major or minor I cannot say, though I must confess I hadn't heard of it before. Tim riley (talk) 21:36, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

• Include all the information that was removed. It may not be as notable as being listed in Kenneth Turan's top ten or receiving an award from the NYFCC, but that doesn't mean it isn't notable at all. As far as I know, the PFCS is regarded as a professional group and the newspapers mentioned are professional newspapers. It's not for us to say "No they aren't professional ENOUGH!" It's only a small bit of text and I just can't see any problem with including it. --Loeba (talk) 22:38, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
  • "Not having a problem with including it" is a matter of personal taste and doesn't actually provide a reason for inclusion other that WP:ILIKEIT. And it actually is for us to say, by consensus, that including everyone and everything no matter what is WP:INDISCRIMINATE.--Tenebrae (talk) 00:06, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
    • You've ignored the first part of my comment, where I stated that the information is notable so should be included. The latter part of my comment is is still related to policy: I'm saying that "indiscriminate" doesn't apply when we're only talking about a small bit of information. The policy is there to stop articles from being burdened with every related factoid ("Long and sprawling lists of statistics may be confusing to readers and reduce the readability and neatness of our articles"), but that wouldn't be a problem here. --Loeba (talk) 13:29, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose :I don't see an issue with the top 10 part where those top 10s are from notable bodies but why do we care what the Phoenix Film whatever thinks? Darkwarriorblake (talk) 22:49, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
  • What are you opposing. It sounds like you are saying include the top 10s and exclude the PFCS.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:00, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

• Comment Generally we include awards that we have articles about and remove awards that don't have articles. We do cover the Phoenix Film Critics Society awards so the correct way to challenge their notability would be to WP:PROD or AfD the award I guess. Obviously if they survive deletion then they are de facto notable. As for top tens, I think those are generally best dealt with on a case-by-case basis. If they have received some independent secondary coverage, or have been solicited as part of a prestigious poll (such as the Sight & Sound decennial poll) then they are probably notable, but at the same time notability isn't hereditary so we shouldn't automatically just include a top 10 just because the critic is notable. Betty Logan (talk) 00:22, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Betty Logan, You did not state your opinion on the removed top 10 content for this movie.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:02, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

I do not think the critic top tens should be restored unless they can be established as being independently notable: with aggregators, it is the overall critical consensus that is notable rather than what each individual critic thinks (and in the case of very successful films the number of placements on critic top tens could be endless). In the case of the National Board of Review top 10, we have an article at National Board of Review Awards 2013#Top Independent Films, so I would advocate inclusion in the case of this particular top ten. Betty Logan (talk) 20:56, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

• Restore contested content. In terms of top 10 lists, if we limit to those mentioned by Metacritic (the WP:RS for the deleted content) we are not being WP:INDISCRIMINATE and since Phoenix Film Critics Society has its own article we are not being WP:INDISCRIMINATE.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:45, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
  • That blanket statement, I'm afraid, isn't accurate. It's been established in past discussions — and I hope as a fellow veteran editor you'll exhibit good faith and not make me spend a hour or two laboriously combing archives to cite chapter and verse — but just because a group has a Misplaced Pages article doesn't mean every utterance from it is notable. --Tenebrae (talk) 14:44, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
    • Since I have never heard that this is an invalid standard for inclusion in a list, you do have to say why it is not a valid standard for inclusion in a list like this.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:50, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
    • You can't make a unilateral demand like that. In other words, you have to back up your assertion as well: You need to show where it says we're required to include every single award and nomination of every single piddling little organization that has an article in Misplaced Pages. I would say that clearly violates WP:INDISCRIMINATE. --Tenebrae (talk) 16:18, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
      • I think I have satisfied a reasonable burden by providing WP:ICs from WP:RSs. Once I establish that RS consider a subject worth discussing, it is the responsibility of wikipedians to summarize that content. In terms of movie review type content, Metacritic is pretty close to as important a source as there is. If they compile a list of top tens, we should summarize it. I disagree that Metacritic is a piddling little organization.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:01, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
      • Not talking about Metacritic. Talking about the Phoenix Film Critics Society. Just because Misplaced Pages acknowledges that it exists doesn't mean that every utterance from that organization is intrinsically notable. That's WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Changing subjects: If Metacritic gives a top-10 based on an aggregation, that's one thing. Including every top-10 list down to the the Podunk Daily Star is quite another.--Tenebrae (talk) 18:06, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
        • If you support Metacritic top-10 aggregation as significant and I summarize the agggregate for this film by stating the more notable sources from that aggregate, what is the problem?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:11, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
          • Metacritic's own list at http://www.metacritic.com/feature/film-critic-top-10-lists-best-movies-of-2013 is one thing, and In a World... is not on that list. As for the Anytown USA Times, it's inconsequential. There are hundreds of newspapers and magazines and thousands of movie websites. A huge number issue top-10 lists. We are not obligated to list every film on every top-10 list that every newspaper, magazine and website posts. --Tenebrae (talk) 18:59, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
            • There is some merit to your statement. I don't really do a lot of film articles. I guess it is sort of similar to the basketball teams that are only "receiving votes" but not among the top 25 in the AP Poll or Coaches' Poll and detailing who gave them votes even though they were not among the top 25.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:06, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
            • I appreciate your graciousness in saying that, Tony. Despite editors here having philosophical differences, this has been a very civil discussion overall, and your collegiality has been a big part of that. --Tenebrae (talk) 23:08, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
• Include all awards/festivals that have an article. Lugnuts 10:15, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Lugnuts can you comment on the Top 10 lists at issue.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:29, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
• Include Phoenix Film Critics Society award, neutral on the others. Both sides have made good arguments. For the Phoenix Film Critics Society, I was able to find coverage here on HitFix, here at Indiewire, here at The Wrap, and here at Broadway World. The award is notable enough to attract attention from multiple reliable sources, and a PFCS nomination was also included in Prometheus's list of accolades, which is a Featured article. On the topic of the critics' top 10 lists, I'm neutral. They are often included in articles as puffery, but I'm not directly opposed the practice. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 11:13, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the hard work in digging these up. These WP:RS bolster my challenge.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:58, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
    • I'm afraid that's apples and oranges. We're not talking about whether the Phoenix film Critics Society is a reliable source for footnoting. The issue is whether a "critics" society that includes amateurs, non-notable WP:SPS bloggers and free weekly penny-shoppers has any significance. --Tenebrae (talk) 17:23, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Link for Marc Graue

This link goes to a page for 'SuperMario'? PeterM88 (talk) 23:10, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, that was a bad Easter egg, as we call links to redirect to inappropriate, surprise pages. I'll fix. --Tenebrae (talk) 23:39, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

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