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Dutch language

Hi, and welcome to Misplaced Pages. I wanted to stop by and commend your hard work with the above article; however, I also want to give you some advice. The m tag should only be used when very small edits are made, such as typo fixing, minor grammar edits, ortography, etc. For instance, these two edits were in no way minor edits: you removed a whole mess of sourced text. In addition to this, it would be nice if you would cite your sources when you replace already sourced information. Happy editing, Eisfbnore  12:39, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

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High German consonant shift

Hi. Last month you reverted an edit of mine at High German consonant shift and challenged me to explain at talk. REALLY SORRY that I didn't see that until now. There is an explanation there now. I'll be curious to see how the others feel about this. It would be good of you can look for a citation, though. --Doric Loon (talk) 14:08, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

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Dutch dialects

From your edits I get the impression that you don't really know much about the subject, but you are drawing conclusions that are causing factual errors to creep into the articles. In particular, you concluded that "southern Dutch" must be the same as "Belgian Dutch" which is certainly nonsense, and it makes it seem like you really don't know anything about it. There is also a difference between "everyday dialects" and "spoken Dutch", because the latter does not say what form of Dutch is actually being spoken. Not everyone actually speaks in the local dialect, sometimes not even the majority of people speak it. I really think that if this is not a topic you have at least some expertise in, you shouldn't be editing the articles. CodeCat (talk) 03:51, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

You should read the page in its entirety. Statements in the Overview and following section break down the distinction as not necessarily northern vs. southern but Netherlands vs. Belgian. Also, the original text in the "South Dutch" section originally read "South Dutch (Flemish)", so if I was mislead, it was because the page's contents said something different. Which is why I strongly suggest you edit the other sections that talk about "Belgian" Dutch for the sake of consistency. A citation specifically localizing the 3-way use of gender would be helpful.

As for the dialect bit, "everyday dialects" is a phrasing error. You should just say "southern Dutch dialects", unless you were thinking of "everyday speech" (i.e. informal register), which is not necessarily dialectal. If you don't mean "speech", then you're including written Dutch, which is obviously in the standard. Also, the examples appear to be in otherwise standard Dutch save for the possessives. So, there's a bit of a contradiction. "local dialects" now limits your meaning to strictly nonstandard, regional speech - possibly worse considering the examples (which imply rather the 3-way split occurs in informal, non-dialectal speech). The best thing would be to remove any mention of dialects altogether. Also, I'm curious, does (or did) the 3-way split occur in the Belgian standard? Torvalu4 (talk) 05:22, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

There is no Belgian standard. Belgium follows the same standard written form as the Netherlands. What is different in the spoken forms of Belgium with respect to southern Netherlands Dutch is that the latter have a much stronger Hollandic influence and are therefore closer to Standard Dutch (which is based primarily on Hollandic). The Belgian forms have more French influence, especially the further south you go. But that's the result of the national border dividing them and so the phenomenon is only a century old or so. 150 years ago there was no significant language border, there were only Brabantian dialects that formed a dialect continuum. Furthermore, there are many differences among individual people too: some people still speak the original dialect more or less (i.e. Brabantian) while others speak mostly standard/Hollandic with Brabantian mixed in. What characterises Belgium in this respect is that the original dialect survives much more strongly than it does in the Netherlands.

The three-gender split is the result of a phenomenon called "accusativism" which emerged in late Middle Dutch in the southern dialects. Speakers began to use the accusative case in place of the nominative. This case had three clearly different endings for the genders, while the nominative had identical forms for the masculine and feminine. When the case system collapsed a few centuries later, the accusative case was the only surviving case among speakers with accusativism, while the nominative survived elsewhere. The dialects with accusativism were able to maintain the three genders because the articles still allowed them to be distinguished, while that was not possible in the remaining dialects. So to pinpoint which areas have three genders you need to find out which dialects have accusativism, and those dialects are the ones south of the Meuse, i.e. Brabantian (and probably Flemish and Limburgish too, which were influenced by it).

Speakers whose dialect has 3 genders will also use this when writing standard Dutch, or when speaking a standardised/Hollandicised form of Dutch in formal/public settings (like on radio or TV). So in this sense, the split occurs in formal Dutch as well, but its basis lies in the "underlying" dialect that the speaker is accustomed to. Speakers in (mostly) Dutch Brabant that have switched to a form of Hollandic with Brabantian mixed in will tend to abandon the accusativistic/3-gender article system as well, and so these speakers will have the two-gender system of common-neuter. I myself am one of those speakers too; I don't have any innate feel for the 3-gender system, which a speaker who was raised in the traditional dialect would have. CodeCat (talk) 14:30, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

That was informative, but there are a couple of problems. First, you imply you don't actually know which dialects for sure, Brabantian extends north well beyond the Meuse (so do you really mean the 2 Belgian Brabantian dialects?), and if the split occurs in formal Dutch then, despite the underlying source, it is a linguistic fact that the split is not dialectal. So, you should just say "southern Dutch". Also, you haven't really said anything that doesn't confine the phenomenon to Belgium... I'm getting the feeling that "south of the Meuse" is a euphemism for the Belgian border. So, I can't help but continue to wonder if your edit was ever justified. Finally, I'm a little worried about how the word "dialect" is being used; I have a strong feeling you're referring to 2 things: dialect in the English sense, and Dialekt/dialecte in the continental sense. Torvalu4 (talk) 19:58, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

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A cup of tea for you good sir!

Hello there! I noticed you've been making some good edits to legal pages and I just wanted to say thank you. I tweaked your edit on the medieval history of torts, which is a page I've done a fair bit of work on, but you added some good information. Thanks again and let me know if you want any tips or need some help. I've been around for a few years and I know it can get heated and stressful around here. II | (t - c) 20:00, 8 April 2014 (UTC)