Misplaced Pages

talk:WikiProject Judaism: Difference between revisions - Misplaced Pages

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 20:14, 24 June 2006 editJon513 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users7,548 edits →Criticism of Modern Orthodoxy vs. Other Movements Unequal← Previous edit Revision as of 14:02, 25 June 2006 edit undoRK (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users10,561 edits Bad faith deletion of new article on ''Shefa'''Next edit →
Line 545: Line 545:


:I don't think that the two things are comparable at all. Every article that has legitimate verifiable criticism should have a criticism section. We do not need to add or remove criticism section so that all the articles are equal. That being said, there are many legitimate verifiable criticism of reform and conservative and they should be expanded. ] 20:12, 24 June 2006 (UTC) :I don't think that the two things are comparable at all. Every article that has legitimate verifiable criticism should have a criticism section. We do not need to add or remove criticism section so that all the articles are equal. That being said, there are many legitimate verifiable criticism of reform and conservative and they should be expanded. ] 20:12, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


== Bad faith deletion of new article on ''Shefa''' ==
Eliezer (under a new name) is trying to delete articles on real organizations. The claim he made on the ] page is false and disingenuous. The '''Shefa Network''' is a very real group, and in fact is already larger than many organizations that Misplaced Pages already has many articles on.

The Shefa Network already has several hundred members, they have their own journal, their own website, they have already had two major conferences, ''and two more conferences are planned'' soon. Yet Eliezer and a friend of his are trying to delete its article? Eliezer has refused to even discuss the issue on the article's discussion page, despite the fact that I am trying to engage in civil discourse. Eliezer and his friend haven't even tried to see if the group exists.

Note the timestamps; they tried to delete the article within ''minutes'' of its creation. They obviously didn't even try to read the group's official website, or read its academic journal. They certainly never went to any of Shefa's conferences! They also never joined Shefa's e-mail list and asked anyone about the group. Look, attempting to delete a page without even trying to ascertain the facts is clearly against Misplaced Pages policy. And doing so while refusing to engage in dialogue is editing in bad faith, ''by definition''.

If someone somehow still doubts that this organization exists, I can arrange for an interview with its founder, or its journal editor, webmaster, and members of this organization who have been to Shefa's academic conferences. ] 14:02, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Revision as of 14:02, 25 June 2006

Archives:

  • Archive 1 (Hebrew pronounciation; transliteration; article outlines discussions);
  • Archive 2 ("Fundamentalism discussions": avoid using the word "fundamentalist"; academic sources for the word "fundamentalism");
  • Archive 3 (Divine inspiration; Orthodox views of Mishnah and Talmud; Orthodox Judaism vs. "fundamentalism");
  • Archive 4 (Science, Judaism & theology; science, homosexuality & Halakha);
  • Archive 5 (Bias in articles; Topics & templates; Jewish vs. Christian Bible; "news" box; pronounciations; Doc. hypothesis; Hebrew language; dealing with anti-Semitism; holiday articles; Hebrews vs. Canaanites);
  • Archive 6 (Samaritan Hebrew; Hebrew Wikisource & Mishnah Project; Siddur; Jews & Greece; Holocaust article; Ladino);
  • Archive 7 (Ten Tribes; Jewish music; Parsha; kaddish; astrology; biographies; Niqqud; Yidiish Wiki; Chareidi project; historical topics; "Messianic Jews; Lists of Jews)
  • Archive 8 (Categories for Jewish law and rituals; Jewish prayers; requested articles & moves; bereavement: brit-dam; eschatology);
  • Archive 9 (Aim of project; Jewish vs. Christian perspectives; Tetragrammaton; avoiding the word "anti-Semitism" name calling; templates & citations; BC & AD vs a Jewish viewpoint; Portal Israel; Jewish Encyclopedia topics; WikiProject Jewish culture; new Wikipedian Hassidim; Jewish Encyclopedia images; Kaddish; Hebrew Bible sources; sanhedrin; mamzer; Tikkun olam; censorship; blech);
  • Archive 10 (Protocols of the Elders; new templates; aleinu; Desi Jews; Kabbalah center; festivals; misleading articles; Purim;)

Articles needing editorial attention

The following articles (many posted or edited by User:FeanorStar7 -- "Professional librarian at the Library of Congress," for latest contributions see ) need editorial help IZAK 16:19, 5 March 2006 (UTC) :

Messianic prophecies concerning the time of birth

Someone has created an article called Messianic prophecies concerning the time of birth. In the opening paragraph, the conclusion is clearly stated: and that conclusion is that "Christ" is the OT Messiah who was prophesied. I'm going to tag this article as POV and in need of wikify, however, I was hoping that editors of this project could add some balance to the article (or maybe we should propose to delete it as a POV-fork?) Thanks!--Andrew c 18:23, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I think that most of those proffs Nahmanides in his dispute with Pablo Christiani in 1263. It can be found in his collected writting. We could give Nahmanides responce to each statement. Nevertheless I think it would be better to move it to Christian views of Jesus and redirrect. Jon513 21:20, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Adam (Hebrew bible)

Please take a look at this article, Adam (Hebrew bible). I have some concerns, but am not sure how to respond. Joaquin Murietta 21:36, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I redirect the article to Adam and Eve. It seems to have been copied from there in the first place and I don't see any reason to make it its own article. However the words are still in Adam and Eve#Narrative. Jon513 17:23, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Ethics in the Bible

The entire article needs work, but the section on the "Hebrew Bible" needs this project's attention. I tried to correct a few inaccuracies, but it still has major problems and is missing critical info. JoshuaZ 14:28, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Ropshitz

Hey all, I just contested prod on this article. It needs a lot of work. Could people devote a few minutes this week to fixing it up before it's put up on AfD? - the.crazy.russian τ ç ë 04:51, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Sofer ST"M-stub

Sofer ST"M. Scribe just doesn't cut it.

I put cleanup on it, It needs _Help_.

'Christian' Essenes

Anyone heard of them? Comment at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Christian Essenes

Jewish education

I have written the basic outline of Jewish education. At the moment it focuses on its historical development and does not attempt to outline the present-day situation. Please add, comment and discuss. JFW | T@lk 22:15, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I've added a section on informal education, with the aim of addressing the impact of youth groups on Jewish education today. It's still quite stubby though. Nomist 10:37, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Masorti/Conservative articles

There's been a proposal to merge Conservative_Judaism, which deals mostly with Conservative Judaism in the United States, with the Masorti article, which is about Masorti around the world. The proposal is to have one main article under Masorti, with smaller articles about Masorti and Conservative movements in specific countries. If you have an opinion on this, please comment at the relevant talk page. Thanks Nomist 21:28, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeshiva day school

I have made a request for an article on yeshiva day schools. The topic is extremely notable and significant as a phenomenon of Jewish culture in the modern world. I was surprised that I could not find an article dedicated to the topic. I will try to begin it, but I am rather busy these days. Comments are welcome. -- DLand 01:03, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

see Jewish day school, Torah Umesorah - National Society for Hebrew Day Schools, yeshiva and Bais Yaakov and Category:Jewish day schools. Perhaps a redirrect from yeshiva day school to Jewish day School is in order. Jon513 11:02, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Right, I should have thought of Jewish day school. Sorry for the bother. --DLand 15:01, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Self-promotion

{{Verify}}

Shirahadasha (talk · contribs) is self-promoting a particular format of tefilla as practiced by, no surprise, a minyan in J'lem called Shira Hadasha. While no doubt there will be plenty of people fascinated by this development, it is still quite a small-scale thing. Could some others have a look at Shira Hadasha and the innovatively titled Partnership Minyan, and see if they can be merged?

My personal view is that this amounts to revisionism for political reasons (feminism). I'm not personally aware of Orthodox critics of this development, but I doubt this has gone unnoticed in Israel's Haredi circles. JFW | T@lk 21:36, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Shirahadasha contributions do not seem like those of a new editor, but of some who has experience with Misplaced Pages. Perhaps there were edits as an anon, or under a different name. I believe that an admin can look into things like that. Jon513 22:31, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I'm not too concerned about sockpuppetry or something. Some people edit as anons for months before finally registering. I'm more concerned about a push to have the Shira Hadasha view pushed on multiple pages while it is a very small development. JFW | T@lk 22:38, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Argh. This is a rehash of the old Minyan Shivyoni Hilchati article (AfD => deleted 25 January 2006) that first appeared as a massive addition to Minyan (viz). In the AfD discussion, I recommended it be pared down and merged with Role of women in Judaism, which it obviously has not been, instead it was resurrected ten weeks later as Partnership minyan, 6 April 2006. It was Anystat (talk · contribs) along with 165.89.84.88 (talk · contribs) who were the primary contributors to the "Minyan" additions and then to the "Minyan Shivyoni Hilchati" article, and it appears that the primary content contributors to the new article, "Partnership minyan" is/are another one-issue editor, Shirahadasha (talk · contribs), and unsurprisingly, the same anon IP, 165.89.84.88 (talk · contribs). My guess is that Shirahadasha is not "new" because "Shirahadasha" is "Anystat". Tomer 00:19, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Chodesh Tov everybody! I'd invite folks on this board to take a closer look at both my edits and my articles.

If you take a look you'll find the majority of articles I've edited don't deal with particular forms of tefilla at all. Take a look at the history of Passover, Passover Seder, Korbanot, Birkat Hamazon, List of Jewish Prayers and Blessings, Amidah, Yeshivat Chovevei Torah, Avi Weiss, Zugot, and much more. Some of the content may be controversial, but there's nothing like self-promotion going on here, no irrelevant content, no spurious links, no refusals to participate in discussions, no simple pushing.

Tomer is correct: I made a decision to separate professional and religious edits. The reasons why are obvious. There's nothing nefarious about it. I've forgotten to sign on at times, but I haven't presented myself as multiple personalities in the same place. FYI I've also used several computers, some of which were shared.

As to the Shira Hadasha and Partnership minyan articles, given acknowledgment that the stuff is notable even in "Israel's Haredi circles", and given the sources proving notability (listing minyanim, conferences, etc. quotes by leading OU and YU figures, etc.), I'm not sure I understand why there's a problem. SlimVirgin and others have added articles to Misplaced Pages's collection on Orthodoxy and feminism including articles on the Jewish Orthodox Feminist Alliance, Blu Greenberg, and Jewish feminism. There's enough going on for this to be notable. One's certainly entitled to think the whole shebang is a bad thing, "revisionism", "political", whatever. But what's personal POV disagreement with an article's subject-matter got to do with labels like "self-promotion"? See Personal attacks#consequences. --Shirahadasha 16:35, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Vote

Please see Talk:Creation_according_to_Genesis#Proposing_split. ems (not to be confused with the nonexistant pre-dating account by the same name) 11:07, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Portal:Judaism/New article announcements

Please announce new articles to collaborate with other editors. This is similar to other portals. ←Humus sapiens 10:51, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

expertise needed on the ritual almond branch

Hello, gathered members of the tribe. I come here in search of more expertise than my own humble self can muster. In the article Almond#Cultural_aspects it says

Today, Jews still carry rods of almond blossom to the synagogues on great festival days.

This doesn't ring a bell with me, but what do I know. Does anybody else recognize this practice? Thanks Gzuckier 18:26, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Tosafot (Bechorot 8a, s.v. "Tarn'golet") states that the almond branch represents the three weeks, though I don't know of anyone taking branches into a synagogue during that period. As far as I know, the only time it is customary to bring branches to the synagogues is obviously on Sukkot, where almond branches aren't included, and Shavuot, when almond branches are not particularly chosen. HKT 02:14, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. I shall therefore delete the sentence. Gzuckier 14:16, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

True Torah Jews misrepresenting Judaism

This is a new article written by a new user, who claims that TTJ and their website (jewsagainstzionism.com) is "a completely independent group and with no affiliation to any other anti-Zionist group" and insists that they represent mainstream Judaism. See The Brutal Zionist Role in the Holocaust. The price of Zionism. ←Humus sapiens 00:41, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/True Torah Jews. ←Humus sapiens 20:24, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

good lord, help please

When someone gets the time, have a look at Kolel Chibas Yerushalayim. It's a massive celebration of POV and OR, presented in some of the worst English I've ever seen on WP. I tagged it for cleanup, and nibbled at the beginning of it, but it's gonna take someone a solid hour to fix it enough to take the cleanup tag off. All I can say is "fe!" Ugh. Tomer 01:12, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

  • Tomer: Relax! Seems we need to get used to the fact that as more Haredim without good English-writing skills join up others will need to clean up. I have done so already many times. The new articles do add new information connected to Haredi Judaism and Hasidic Judaism, so let's welcome them as we add those cleanup tags... IZAK 07:40, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Bibleref

Template:Bibleref has been nominated for deletion because it is a poor copy of Template:Bibleverse. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. Jon513 19:33, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Deletionism facing (Judaism) articles

Shalom to everyone: There is presently a very serious phenomenon on Misplaced Pages that effects all articles. Let's call it "The New Deletionism". There are editors on Misplaced Pages who want to cut back the number of "low quality" articles EVEN IF THEY ARE ABOUT NOTABLE TOPICS AND SUBJECTS by skipping the normal procedures of placing {{cleanup}} or {{cite}} tags on the articles' pages and instead wish to skip that process altogether and nominate the articles for a vote for deletion (VfD). This can be done by any editor, even one not familiar with the subject. The implication/s for all articles related to Jews, Judaism, and Israel are very serious because many of these articles are of a specilaized nature that may or may not be poorly written yet have important connections to the general subjects of Jews, Judaism, and Israel, as any expert in that subject would know.
Two recent examples will illustrate this problem:
1) See Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Zichron Kedoshim, Congregation where a notable Orthodox synagogue was deleted from Misplaced Pages. The nominator gave as his reason: "Scarce material available on Google, nor any evidence in those results of notability nor any notable size." Very few people voted and only one person objected correctly that: "I've visited this synagogue, know members, and know that it is a well established institution" which was ignored and the article was deleted. (I was unaware of the vote).
2) See Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Berel Wein where the nominator sought to delete the article about Rabbi Berel Wein because: "It looks like a vanity project to me. While he does come up with many Google hits, they are all commercial in nature. The article is poorly written and reads like a commercial to me." In the course of a strong debate the nominator defended his METHOD: "... what better way to do that than put it on an AfD where people who might know more about the subject might actually see it and comment rather than slapping a {{NPOV}} and {{cleanup}} template on and waiting for someone to perhaps come across it." But what if no-one noticed it in time and it would have gone the same way as "Congregation Zichron Kedoshim"? Fortunately, people noticed it, no-one agreed with the nominator and the article was kept.
As we all know Googling for/about a subject can determine its fate as an article, but this too is not always a clear-cut solution. Thus for example, in the first case, the nominator saw almost nothing about "Congregation Zichron Kedoshim" on Google (and assumed it was unimportant) whereas in the second case the nominator admitted that Berel Wein "does come up with many Google hits" but dismissed them as "all commercial in nature". So in one case too few Google hits was the rationale for wanting to delete it and in the other it was too many hits (which were dismissed as "too commercial" and interpreted as insignificant), all depending on the nominators' POV of course.
This problem is compounded because when nominators don't know Hebrew or know nothing about Judaism and its rituals then they are at a loss, they don't know variant transliterated spellings, and compounding the problem even more Google may not have any good material or sources on many subjects important to Jewish, Judaic, and Israeli subjects. Often Judaica stores may be cluttering up the search with their tactics to sell products or non-Jewish sites decide to link up to Biblical topics that appear "Jewish" but are actually missionary sites luring people into misinformation about the Torah and the Tanakh, so while Googling may yield lots of hits they may mostly be Christian-oriented and even be hostile to the Judaic perspective.
Therefore, all editors and contributors are requested to be aware of any such attempts to delete articles that have a genuine connection to any aspect of Jews, Judaism and Israel, and to notify other editors.
Please, most importantly, place alerts here in particular so that other editors can be notified.
Thank you for all your help and awareness. IZAK 08:43, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

For articles related to Jewish history (and not necessarily to Judaism per se), see/update Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Jewish history#Votes for deletion. ←Humus sapiens 09:22, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

  1. Some of this is relevant to all articles where the bulk of the online information would not be in the Latin alphabet. I'm wondering where we might raise that issue more generally.
  2. Conversely, it isn't that great a loss if a poor, stubby article is deleted, as long as it is understood that it is not a statement that the topic is inherently not a valid topic. - Jmabel | Talk 15:11, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


Many articles have today been nominated particularly chasidic personalities. All were nominated by User:PZFUN with note "No references, speculative, and reads like an ad. Not notable for Misplaced Pages." Some of those may well be not sufficiently notable, but I woudln't know which- some are CLEARLY notable if the person nominating actually knew what they were reading. And justifying the notability of an 18th century personality with a Google search can in no way be sufficient. Please state your opinions there, but it may be worthwhile for the WikiProject to put together a set of criteria for notability of Jewish religious/community personalities, groups, literature, etc. jnothman 10:35, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
I've closed those nominations as speedy keep. I did it because I was concerned about the number that had been nominated, that some at least were clearly notable, and because of the dispute between PZFUN and IZAK, which made the nominations appear badly timed. However, not everyone is very happy about this, because some of the articles (perhaps all) do need to be cleaned up and, in particular, they need sources, so anyone who wants these to be kept should consider helping to do that; otherwise, they're likely to be nominated again. SlimVirgin 18:13, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Discussion about it here. SlimVirgin 18:18, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The articles still up for deletion include most of the articles in Category:Jewish summer camps. And Eurojews. Jon513 19:42, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Another article at risk: Spanish and Portuguese Jews along with the category category:Spanish and Portuguese Jews. Clearly notable topic, well over 12 000 Google hits; clearly defined timespan (1500s onwards); clearly defined culture, liturgy, Hebrew pronunciation, liturgical music, etc. — but still at risk for being deleted soon. Please help me save this article (which can become very thorough if it isn’t erased first) and category...! -- Olve 08:03, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

More to do

I just put a bunch of stuff we've got to look at on my profile. --Yodamace1 17:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Yom Yerushalayim

Jerusalem Day is this Friday, and it will be noted on the main page. I would be nice if the article was in better shape. If possible, the article should to be expanded. Jon513 13:20, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Rabbi categories for deletion

  • Haredi_rabbis, Religious Zionist Rabbis.
  • Modern Orthodox Rabbis

The categories were not agreed on by consensus and promote confusion. Better to revert to having all rabbis under Modern Orthodox, then having them spilt up into duplicate and confusing cats like choosing between Hassidic and Haredi, etc... --Shuki 22:04, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Orthodox rabbis categories for deletion

Hi: I disagree with the above CfD votes nominated by User:Shuki and User:Nesher. The categories are clear and precise, and it seems that Nesher and Shuki are not fully familar with the way categories are set up and constructed with super-categories first and a number of extending sub-categories. The numbers of rabbis in Category:Orthodox rabbis was growing and some changes were introduced to create accurate sub-categories, and sub-sub-categories, something that is done all the time on Misplaced Pages. The new categories and sub-categories were created based on fact, logic, and reality. If they had problems with it, Nesher and Shuki could have brought the subject over here for some discussion if they had more to say and wanted to bring others in and share their views. However, now that there is a formal vote, it becomes a broader issue, and it can be opened up further here as well.

The votes are presently taking place at:

  1. Misplaced Pages:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 May 23#Category:Haredi rabbis
  2. Misplaced Pages:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 May 23#Category:Religious Zionist Orthodox rabbis
  3. Misplaced Pages:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 May 23#Category:Contemporary Orthodox rabbis
  4. Misplaced Pages:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 May 24#Category:Modern Orthodox rabbis

Thank you and Shabbat Shalom! IZAK 13:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Solomon is a redir to Biblical account of King Solomon?

Was there a consensus about this move? If there was a discussion about this, I missed it. See also Solomon (ancient). ←Humus sapiens 09:30, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi Humus: Your hunch about the Solomon article/s is correct. Biblical account of King Solomon should be moved and redirected to Solomon which should be about the MAIN character in history, who happens to be the Biblical Solomon. There are other precedents for this, how about Abraham, David, Joseph -- are we going to mess those up as well? Obvioulsy not, and this sets a bad precedent. If people want to have a page that leads to other "Solomons" or to show other uses of the name, then use should be made of a Solomon (disambiguation) page. It is ridiculous that Solomon's fame is presented as stemming from an Islamic POV, when that subject deals with the Koran (how about Solomon in the Qu'ran for that?) So it needs some sorting, and the original Slomon, alone should remain as the only name for the king by that name. This is just another example of how a few people who seem to know nothing about a subject can get together, make a little vote, and create entirely false moves. I don't have enough time to deal with that right now. Best wishes. IZAK 12:46, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Please consider voting at Talk:Biblical account of King Solomon#Move me back to Solomon. ←Humus sapiens 23:12, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

If anyone's interested...

Please review my comments above at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Judaism#Self-promotion... I thought this subject had been dealt with already, but as happens so often when it comes to POV-pushers, that sentiment was apparently premature... :-\ Tomer 08:05, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

New on AfD: Israeli apartheid (phrase)

Current tally, discounting apparently invalid votes: 39 delete (many of these are delete and merge), 27 keep (2 of which vote for possible renaming), 2 merge, 2 neutral, 0 undecided. Vote at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Israeli apartheid (phrase). HKT 15:06, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Current percentages
  • 55.7% Delete
  • 38.6% Keep
  • 2.8% Merge
  • 2.8% Neutral
I am opposed to the use of this WikiProject to address articles to do with Israeli politics rather than Judaism as a religion. This has been a policy of this WikiProject since the beginning and I see no reason to abandon it. JFW | T@lk 19:09, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Okay, where should it be moved? (If you have a good idea feel free to move it yourself.) HKT
That is not the point. You may wish to set up a noticeboard for Israel-related topics, or a WikiProject. But I do not wish the efforts in this WikiProject snowed under by discussions about the politics of Israel. JFW | T@lk 20:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I wasn't trying to make a point. If this post is against the project's policy, let it be moved or removed. HKT 03:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Aqdamuth / אקדמות

For the Ashkenazim in the house, perhaps an article on Aqdamuth (please don't put it at Akdammes or something scary) might be a good project for tonight and tomorrow... :-) חג שמח! Tomer 03:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Probably not this year. It would require some research; I don't have a copy of the ArtScroll translation. I presume the Jewish Encyclopedia has an article that we can use, as long as the remove the quasi-scholary waffle for which it is known. JFW | T@lk 13:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Help develop Scripture Database website

I've been conceptualizing a Scripture Database website for several years now. I've finally gotten around to publishing a rough draft of the site online. It is wiki-based and would make a good compliment to Misplaced Pages scripture pages. Please use my dedicated talk page to discuss. --J. J. 19:36, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Fornication

I've been writing the article on Fornication, and I'm very interested to find out about the Jewish perspective, which I've left space for. Is it possible for someone here to write a pargraph or two? A J Hay 07:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is an attempt for others here to comment on:
Orthodox Judaism restricts sexual activity to marriage between a Jewish man and a Jewish woman. A man and women are prohibited from being in a closed room alone together if they are not married, a practice called yichud.
Sexual relations between a man and a woman who are not married are considered less serious than the Biblically prohibited unions, specifically adultery (a married woman having relations with another man) and incest; the later have more severe penalties and there are serious restrictions on children of prohibited unions (mamzerim).
Sexual relations is one of the ways the Talmud (Kiddushin 1) specifies for effecting a marriage, though this method is frowned upon by the Rabbis. Children of a Jewish woman are considered Jewish regardless of whether she was married.
--agr 14:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

See negiah. Covers it all. No need to mention everything else. Fornication is prohibited under any context except between man and wife when the woman is not niddah (state of seperation brought on by the monthly cycle). Physical context between close relatives is permissible, although not in a sensual way. JFW | T@lk 15:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Thankyou kindly, I have posted what's written here on the article, with see also:negiah. Feel free to edit the article itself at any time. A J Hay 13:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Israeli Rabbinate's Decision Not to Accept Rabbinical Council of America Conversions

I've attempted to add material on this decision into the Who is a Jew article. I think it's a momentous event -- the rupture creates a de facto denominational split between Haredi and Modern Orthodox Jews and means that a large number of North American Orthodox converts and their descendents won't be recognized as Jews in Israel. Perhaps should be mentioned and flagged as a current event in other articles as well. See ] --Shirahadasha 13:01, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The London Beth Din and various other European battei din have been skeptical about certain Israeli conversions for decades. Why was that not a "denominational split"? JFW | T@lk 14:43, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Seems more like Israeli bureaucracy to me. This is just like last year when Israel stopped (for a short time) recognizing YU degrees. It does not seem to be a religious issue. I am sure that there are many haradi rabbi who would recommend that the couple marry abroad to avoid this nonsense (just like many secular people, who are really forbidden to get married according to halakha, do). Just the fact that the child of the convert had a letter from a prominent rabbi who did appear on the Chief Rabbinate's list, (certifying that the mother's conversion had met the highest standards of rabbinic law), and they still didn’t accept it show that there is bureaucratic, not halakhic thinking at work. Jon513 17:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
IZAK, please assume good faith. This seemed to me like a legitimate question, especially coming from a perspective of someone who is not Haredi and disagrees with many Haredi concepts. JFW | T@lk 08:37, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
JFW: I would normally agree, but when someone has consistently edited and introduced articles from the far-left spectrum of Modern Orthodox Judaism (some may even regard it as the "lunatic fringe" of Modern Orthodoxy), often bordering on original research and not far off from the proverbial "soapbox", so that then subsequent question/s come across as very tendentious, provocative, and desigend to cause guaranteed controversy. In this instance, for example, it would be enough to report recent news from the Israeli chief rabbinate (actually it was more of a deliberately aimed probe by a secular Israeli newspaper which goaded the Sephardic Chief Rabbi to make some comments and then the papers turned it into "hot news", when some of these policies have been in effect for some time.) When dealing with matters of religion in general, one needs to avoid any appearance of mudraking or unfounded sensationalism, especially, as it may come across as yet another attempt to paint the Haredim "blacker than black" or the Modern Orthodox as "more modern than ever". This is a very delicate subject and should be handled with kid gloves IZAK 09:29, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I do agree that not all Shira's contributions have treated Haredim fairly, nor can I see how modifying halakha for political aims will gives us a better Judaism than the one we had before. JFW | T@lk 10:05, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Another serious error that Shira is making, is the assumption that the Israeli chief rabbinate is part of Haredi Judaism when that is far from true. Historically, Batei Din under Haredi auspices, anywhere in the world, have never automatically accepted conversions done by Modern Orthodox rabbis and have usually required a second conversion according to their own standards, so that is not news at all it's part of a reality that has always existed. On the other hand, the Israeli chief rabbinate is a political and religious hybrid creation of Zionism wishing to mesh with Judaism. It functions in tandem with the political State of Israel in conjunction with the entrenched Religious Zionist establishment in Israel. While in office, any Israeli chief rabbi represents the entire secular State of Israel and he neither represents nor speaks for any branch of Haredim. So Shira's assumptions are simply not correct, even though there is an impression in the secular and Modern Orthodox world that somehow or other the Haredim "control" the chief rabbinate. While people like Rav Eliashiv may have some input, because he was once a dayan in the chief rabbinate himself, yet the fact is that the Haredi rabbonim, rosh yeshivas, and rebbes, have quite openly and publicly long stressed that the Israeli chief rabbinate does not speak for them, rather they have their own organizations, parties, and Batei Din or essentially accept their Edah HaCharedis. The official Israeli chief rabbinate is essentially connected to the Religious Zionist Movement and it is they who are not comfortable with the leftward drift of the Modern Orthodox rabbinate as represented, for example, by the Rabbinical Council of America and its mostly Modern Orthodox rabbis with their more lenient conversion standards. It just so happens to be that many ardently religious Zionist rabbis in Israel have a greater respect for Israel's Haredi rabbis, a feature of Israeli Orthodox life that the Modern Orthodox rabbis dislike since many of them would rather see a rapprochement with the non-Orthodox branches of Judaism instead and they are angry when they see their Religious Zionist allies in Israel go in the opposite direction by alligning themselves with Haredi policy positions. So let's be careful about oversimplifying things or twisting the true story to fit a preconceived POV agenda. IZAK 23:14, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I understand that the move could be interpreted as bureaucratic. Perhaps the Rabbinate is simply extending its general standard prohibiting ordinary congregational rabbis from performing conversions and requiring them to be centralized to rabbis of Rabbinical courts, and imposing it on a diaspora environment used to doing things differently. Perhaps the issue can be resolved. The difficulty is that the Rabbinate's judgments in this area are de facto religious in nature, whether or not so intended.--Shirahadasha 23:17, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't want to get myself embroiled in this imbroglio, especially not since all I really "know" amounts to nothing more than unsubstantiated hearsay bordering on gossip...but from what I've read, the entire fracas has nothing to do with orthodox vs. non-orthodox, but is rather a result of a backlash from the leadership of the rabanuth against the OU because the OU condemned one of the rabanuth's "native sons" who was convicted of child molestation, a move which the rabanuth took as an egregious offense. This explanation seems to hold a great deal of water, since the giyurim in question are across the board, giving recognition to only a few "favorites" on an age-old list, which has, from what I've read, been altered to omit certain rabanim who were formerly in its good graces, specifically because they supported the OU's condemnation of said individual. All of this pontification about the leftward drift of modoxy and castigation of shira chadasha for her ... ahem ... views, is therefore, utterly irrelevant to the subject at hand, and NONE of this discussion is doing anything to actually promote the betterment of WP. Tomer 06:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Mezuzah

I expanded Mezuzah significantly... Any comments on the additions? Karimarie 22:16, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Latest in biblical terminology

Since this project seems to be more active, I thought I'd point out my new comment Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Countering systemic bias in religion#Latest in biblical terminology concerning specifically this project's Usage of words such as "Old Testament" and "New Testament" in articles. --J. J. 15:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Project page edit war

Timothy Usher (talk · contribs) and FairNBalanced (talk · contribs) seem to think the WikiProject page is unnecessarily biased. Kindly review the edit history and comment on their edits. FairNBalanced is warmly welcomed as a member of the WikiProject. JFW | T@lk 20:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I've moved commentary from my and Jfdwolff's talk pages here, where we can continue the discussion:

Timothy, I disagree with your changes to WikiProject Judaism, and have reverted them. Primarily, you removed the vitally important paragraph warning WikiProject members to monitor for NPOV in Biblical articles. Furthermore, your edits appear meddlesome considering you have not registered as a member of the WikiProject, nor attempted to conduct any form of discussion on the WikiProject's talkpage. JFW | T@lk 11:05, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Your "vitally important paragraph" is precisely what never under any circumstances should have been restored. I've replied on your talk page.Timothy Usher 11:17, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Jfdwolff, it is simply inappropriate to summarize your recent edit to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Judaism as "meddling by user who is not a member of the WikiProject." Moreover, the passages you'd restored are themselves inappropriate. We're not here to band together in factions against perceived rivals, or to spread negative feelings or assumptions about editors with other religious beliefs, and if we are, we shouldn't be here.Timothy Usher 11:15, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

If you are uncomfortable with the phrasing on that page, you are encouraged to discuss this on the talkpage first. Do not make your edits again without appropriate discussion, for reasons of WP:POINT. JFW | T@lk 11:21, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

The vitally important paragraph addressed the important point that Biblical articles frequently do not adequately represent the Jewish view. This is a function of WP:NPOV, and you should not be removing that paragraph. JFW | T@lk 11:22, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Can you explain to me the need for “Jewish vs. Christian perspectives?
Can you explain how you are assuming good faith when you write, “Being on the lookout when certain "Biblical" articles are written with clear subtle and not-so-subtle anti-Semitic intent...”?
By the way, it's absurd that you cite WP:NPOV to justify material warning Project members that Christians are out to get them.
I await your response.Timothy Usher 11:28, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Whether you are right or wrong, the text on the WikiProject page is consensus of the project members. I cannot disagree that allegations of anti-Semitism should be revised to reflect WP:AGF (I didn't write that text). But deleting them outright is equally WP:POINT. Because contrary to your apparent perception there have been numerous anti-Jewish editors on Misplaced Pages, some of which have been running rampant for quite some time. JFW | T@lk 11:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm totally aware of that. That doesn't justify gearing up Project members to expect fights. That's unduly and unproductively contentious. A look at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Islam and Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Islam:The Muslim Guild should enlighten you as to the reasons these changes are necessary.
I'm glad we can at least agree that there is a problem with this text. We also shouldn't be soliciting changes to or "defense of" particular articles. I invite you to change the language so as to conform to policy and good judgement.
As for WP:POINT, all I can suggest is, re-read.Timothy Usher 11:54, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to agree with JFW on this one. I don't think there was anything to suggest that the text indicated that chrisitans were "out to get them", there was nothing innappropriate about what was written, if something offended you I would prefer you use the talk page.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 19:46, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
It's not about me being offended. Where these content disputes are concerned, I'm rather inclined to assume that the problem is very real, and that the posts were made in good faith. It's more of a general point about how these projects should work, and, no, I don't have to join the project to notice this. In fact, an outside view may be precisely what is needed, and I encourage you to seek opinions from others. Please consider if there might be some way to preserve most of this text while addressing my objections.Timothy Usher 19:56, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Your concerns have been noted. That fact does not give you permission to significantly alter the text of the project page unilaterally. If you think something should be changed, you should address it on the talk page. Kari Hazzard (talk | contrib)
I was given permission to edit pages, including this project page, when I logged on. We were discussing it last night on my user talk page, and now I've moved the thread here. Have you any further concerns I can address?Timothy Usher 22:56, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
And we were given the permission to revert edits that are considered incorrect by most of the editors of an article. As the article reflects the consensus of the project members it currently stands 75 to 2 in favor of the version of the article before your edits. You've yet to make a compelling argument in favor of your own edits. What do you propose as a modified version of the text? Kari Hazzard (talk | contrib) 23:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Recent changes

  • I’d changed the section title “Jewish vs. Christian perspectives” to “Jewish and Christian perspectives.” My aim was to tone down the atmosphere of conflict, but lookng at it again, I can see that "and" might be construed as altering the meaning in a way I hadn’t intended by suggesting that these perspectives must be the same. We also shouldn't be suggesting that there are two monolithic and opposed "Jewish" and "Christian" perspective. I suggest "Common differences between Jewish and Christian perspectives".
  • I rewrote "Jews do not share this belief, and many find its usage offensive, as it implies the reader also worships Jesus as god and messiah. Therefore it is preferable and in accord with NPOV policy to refer to "Jesus of Nazareth" or simply “Jesus”” to “This usage violates wikipedia policy, and it never hurts to remind editors to refer to him as "Jesus of Nazareth" or simply "Jesus.""
We should not be saying “Jesus Christ” on wikipedia, or, for that matter, on talk pages. It’s POV, and it’d divisive. On that, we can all agree. However, we shouldn’t be encouraging members to take offense. Most instances are probably good faith additions by over-zealous editors. Just remove "Christ" and remind other editors of policy.
Just as a note, I specifically use the term “Christ” on the talk pages of Talk:Messianic Judaism, as I feel that is one of the strongest agrguments that the aforementioned is a form of “Christ”ianity and not Judaism. The term means messiah in Greek; thus those who believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the messiah ipso facto believe that he is a “Christ” and are thus Christians. Removing the term destroys the argument. -- Avi 00:31, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, sure, of course. Where it's on topic, as in "Christians believe Jesus to be the Messiah, and thus refer to him as Jesus Christ." (from Christianity). Perhaps a qualification of the statment above (in either version) is warranted.Timothy Usher 07:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
It’s a misuse of project space to solicit involvement in particular articles along a pre-determined point of view, regardless of the merits of that point of view. In any case, the article appears headed for a well-deserved deletion. Once it's gone, all that remains is a warning that anti-Semites are out to twist articles related to the Tanakh. Even if true, it’s a violation of WP:AGF which encourages members to do the same. This is the wrong way to approach Misplaced Pages.
I'm inclined to join the project myself once these problems are adequately addressed. Timothy Usher 23:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I do not support your renaming of the section. It intends to contrast the Jewish and Christian view, and use of vs is justified.
I do support your rephrasing of the paragraph on the naming of Jesus. To imply that he was "the Christ" is POV by definition and should be avoided outside direct quotes.
I do not agree that a WikiProject is not allowed to advance one POV over another. This project is made up out of editors with a close knowledge of Judaism, who are hence better equipped to supply the Jewish POV, especially where this is felt to be underrepresented. If the text of that paragraph seems to assume bad faith, it should be changed and not deleted. A casual look at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Countering systemic bias will show you all you need to know. The article you were referring to is Verses in the Old Testament criticizing apostates, no doubt. JFW | T@lk 07:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, that's the miserable article which must be deleted to which I'd referred. The old name as posted here redirected to it.
"I do not agree that a WikiProject is not allowed to advance one POV over another."
This is a real mistake. Factions and solicitations are not widely appreciated.
Moreover, there is no single "Jewish POV", as anyone who follows the incessant Israel-Palestine debates is well aware. I suppose one could say that Jesus not being the messiah is the Jewish POV, but only by no true Scotsman. We're not here to determine the "Jewish POV", much less to act as a unit to apply it. Trust me, this is not the first WikiProject to which I've presented this news. See Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Islam:The Muslim Guild, where members are called to band together to fight "Jewish and Christian authors with axes to grind," and much more.
Contrasting the Jewish and Christian points of view is itself somewhat inappropriate. Let editors, Jewish and Christian (and otherwise) alike, come to their own conclusions through discussions on the relevant talk pages. This should be a place for editors interested in Judaism-related articles, as am I.
Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Countering systemic bias has no special status in policy. It's just another project page someone wrote up as we're doing here.
I'm glad we've some agreement on the "Christ" paragraph at least. We're not disagreeing on the substance here, more just the tone.Timothy Usher 07:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


Update I've rewritten the "Be on the lookout..." section to read, "Sometimes articles related to the Tanakh, or "Old Testament", are written from a distinctly Christian perspective. It's a worthy goal to ensure that Jewish perspectives are taken into account." I still don't agree this is the right way to approach wikipedia, but this is at least less overtly paranoid.Timothy Usher 07:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Timothy, for someone so careful about trying to avoid conflit, you do a great job of starting one. Jon513 12:53, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, someone has to do it. It seems that these violations of WP policy (and more importantly, spirit) have gone on so long that some have come to view them as the natural state of affairs: they are not. The proper purpose of this project can only be for a place for editors interested in Judaism-related articles to discuss general issues of style, common problems, etc. I think we'd all agree at least that to maintain this pretense is desirable.Timothy Usher 19:11, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Having made all those changes, will you now stop making a fuss? How on earth did you come to the conclusion that your edits are supported by consensus? Why is it so hard for you to propose new versions here first and discuss them in a collaborative fashion?

Timothy, it seems you have finally joined the WikiProject; what do you have to contribute to articles about Judaism? JFW | T@lk 20:54, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don't know, I just arrived here. So far, my only contribution has been to defend the Passover article when it was on the front page over Passover. I've been active in other religious articles, mostly Islam-related, also Christianity, and God. Also, I've been involved in articles related to Jewish ethnicity (e.g. Persian Jews), anti-semitism, and to Israel - currently involved in a debate on the term "Israeli apartheid", which someone has sadly made into an article. At this point, I'm still learning what's going on in this corner of the wiki.Timothy Usher 21:06, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
It's very easy for him to assume that his edits are supported by consensus when he thinks he knows more about the subject than the 75 other people in this WikiProject put together. Kari Hazzard (talk | contrib) 22:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Kari, what was the purpose of your highly personalized comment?Timothy Usher 22:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
A simple statement of fact. I request that you answer JFW's question on why you think your edits are supported by consensus. Kari Hazzard (talk | contrib) 23:00, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but your (incorrect) speculations about my thinking are not simple statements of fact. Consensus on wikipedia policy is decided on the relevant policy pages, not here. If you'd to change WP:AGF to make an exemption which allows members of WikiProject Judaism to assume that other editors are motivated by anti-semitism, and to "be on the lookout" for them, I invite you to make your case there.Timothy Usher 23:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
No one is assuming that other editors are motivated by Anti-Semitism. It is a fact, however, that there have been Anti-Semitic editors and that members of this WikiProject can and should observe and correct such expressed opinions if encountered. That's all the project page, as it was originally was written, intended to state. Kari Hazzard (talk | contrib) 23:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I have to say I'm not incredibly impressed, Timothy, by your edits to Persian Jews, which seem to consist primarily of deleting text. I'm also rather unimpressed with your "defense" of Passover, which was nothing more than an editwar between you and User:Rickyrab (on my birthday, as it happens), wherein you castigated him with the following edit summary: "Rickyrab, this is an interesting idea, but we need to work it out on discussion, with sources, before, not after, sweeping changes are made. You may be absolutely right. Just show us." when you did nothing but remove a link to an outside source. Your first revert of Rickyrab gives no support for your actions, rather you respond to his edit summary with the dismissive (and wholly irrelevant) "party line? please". While I disagree with Rickyrab's edit summary and would be hesitant to openly support the edit he made, while reverting your reversion of his edit, he makes the reasonable request "Don't revert without first considering or investigating.", which you procede to revert again, saying "I've nothing against the Canaanites, but you need sources", completely ignoring the fact that you deleted a source in your revert. He then adds a source and invites you to discussion on Talk:Passover, whereupon you, on the talk page, say "This is potentially very interesting. I am only asking that we evaluate this before changing the article." Thereafter he provides a number of external links on the talk page, and instead of engaging in further constructive discussion, you just disappear from the article and its talk page, without bothering to undo your destructive edits. I don't have time to dig through your edits to Christianity and God, but I doubt I'm going to find anything that's going to provide evidence that you really are a constructive editor. Whining about WP:AGF only gets you so far...if you read the page far enough down, you'll find the paragraph that says, and I quote:

Of course, there's a difference between assuming good faith and ignoring bad actions. If you expect people to assume good faith from you, make sure you demonstrate it. Don't put the burden on others. Yelling "Assume Good Faith" at people does not excuse you from explaining your actions, and making a habit of it will convince people that you're acting in bad faith.

At this point, the onus is on you to demonstrate that AGF should be reapplied to your motivations, since the evidence I'm seeing says that any further assumption of good faith would be a violation of "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice , shame on me". You telling us that we have to assume good faith on your part at this point sounds like little more than an attempt to make contributors to WP:JEW adhere to a Christian philosophy of "turning the other cheek" ad nauseum. Your protestations that you are somehow a wounded party or a great defender of Misplaced Pages policy, either in letter or in spirit, ring woefully hollow. Straighten up, or don't be surprised when you continue to find resistance to your curious misinterpretations about how WP operates. Cheers, Tomer 06:58, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I never asked you, much less "whined at you", to assume my good faith, Tom, I asked the project not to assume the bad faith of Christian editors generally. I don't know what Christian scripture has to do with this; perhaps you can explain why you thought this on-topic.
On the Persian Jews article, the material deleted was rightfully deleted. There were several things I'd removed - one asserted that Persian Jews supported the Iranian Revolutionary Regime, cited to the regime-approved representative of the Jewish community. Another was material purporting to show that Persian Jews are worse off in Israel than in Iran - one source was a Haaretz man-on-the-street interview (that's right, one guy in a human interest story - was it this one that said the reason that life in Israel sucked is that Israelis are greedy and out for themselves?) - as well as discussions of discrimination against Ethiopian Jews - not that I support such discrimination, nor do I doubt it exists...but Ethiopian Jews aren't Persian Jews. Yet another qualified the regime's curtailment of contact with Jews outside of Israel by stating that it was only contact with "Zionists" which was forbidden. Other removals were a series of feel-good pictures involving Jews and the Iranian leadership. The editors insisting upon the inclusion of this material were recently before ArbCom, in which several were sanctioned regarding issues related to Iranian nationalism. You be the judge.
Removal of poorly-sourced and biased material is a necessary and legitimate task, and I'd proudly do it again.
The RickyRab edit: The article was currently on the main page, in observance of Passover. It was personally important to me to ensure that any added material was legitimate. Attributing the origins of passover to Caananite legend is a significant claim, and deserves significant evidence. Hence, I asked it to be further explained. As one edit was accompanied by a challenge to the "party line", I was a little unsure where it was coming from. A revert isn't a crime. In this case it was just a check to ensure that the article wasn't arbitrarily marred when it was on the main page. Nor is it a crime not to stay on the talk page - I trusted other editors to take care of it after the dates had passed.Timothy Usher 07:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Having read the above discussion, I feel obliged to jump to Timothy's defense. Being the editor very heavily involved in editing Persian Jews, I attest to Timothy's above comments regarding his edits to this article; I did the same. On Passover, Timothy removed a bad faith original research tag placed there on Passover eve by an editor who felt disgruntled about a completely unrelated article. As far as the "Common differences..." section is concerned, it's always better to say that referring to Jesus of Nazareth as "Christ" violates WP:NPOV rather say it's offensive to the Jews. There are lots of things on Misplaced Pages that are offensive to different groups of people, but there is no reason to remove these things, as long as they are factually correct. A simple reference to WP:NPOV is unassailable, though. Pecher 09:10, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Although I think many of Timothy's recent edits to Project Judaism have generally been mistakes, and the way he went about the complete removal of passages that have been agreed upon for a long time came across as very presumptuous and irritating, also I think his response to the criticism he recieved was an even bigger mistake. However, I think some people may have been excessivily harsh with the above comments. I really do not think we should question his value as an editor (or as a human being for that matter). Hopefully everyone can learn a lesson from this situation without it having to further degenerate to nobody's benefit.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 09:29, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Moshe, I appreciate your comments. You know that one of my weaknesses is that I tend to get bristly when I feel like I'm under attack, and that clearly exacerbated the situation. As "assume good faith!" is as often as not the motto of trolls and sockpuppets, let me put it another way: I'm not the enemy. I'm just not. You may not like my edits, but I continue to see them as the right thing. "Jewish vs. Christian perspectives' is just not right. I think I see what you were trying to say - Christians often do seek to own Jewish texts, and the term "Old Testament", and the assumptions it reflects, is part of this - and did my best to preserve it while getting rid of the presumption of conflict. There are definitely anti-Semites on Misplaced Pages, but despite the horrors of European history most Christians (at least American Christians) who say "Jesus Christ" or speak of the "Old Testament" are not motivated by anti-Semitism. And I stand by my judgements that there were ongoing violations of policy underpinning these sections. It is simply not appropriate to list an article for all project members to POV swarm, even where I completely agree with the POV (I voted for the article's deletion).Timothy Usher 10:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I understand that you feel that your edits were amd still are "right", but you also have to understand that almost everyone else that regularly edits this page thought that the edits were "not right", it was wrong of you to continue reverting everyone even after it was clear that there was near consensus against your actions. You should not have seen yourself as "under attack".- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 07:53, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

You may recall that I reverted your "amendments" only because as a complete outsider you sought to overthrow consensus. That is bad in article namespace, and that is bad with WikiProjects. You are not under attack. Now the changes have been made we should carry on minding our own business. JFW | T@lk 10:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeshivish

I have had many complaints about the article on Yeshivish for over a year. I have made several corrections to it myself, but it has so many problems that it goes beyond my abilities to fix the whole thing. I need help!

First of all, what does "Yeshivish" mean? It's a pretty informal term, no matter how it's used. In my experience, it's most commonly the term for "black hatter" Orthodox Jews, who are stricter than Modern Orthodox, but who aren't Hasidic. But it's also used to denote the dialect that those same Jews speak amongst each other. The first problem with the article is that deals almost exclusively with the dialect, and very little with the movement.

The article's discussion of Yeshivish speech itself has numerous problems. It cites Chaim Weiser's book Frumspeak as a "serious" study of Yeshivish. I haven't read the book myself, but I somehow doubt this claim. Moreover, is the book talking specifically about Yeshivish, or more broadly about the speech of all American Orthodox Jews? That point is never clarified.

The article's most ludicrous claim is its section on "Yeshivish grammar." It actually argues that Yeshivish has a distinct grammar that sets it apart from other dialects of English, purely because Yeshivish-speaking Jews add English plural endings to Hebrew and Yiddish words! (By that logic, non-Jews are speaking "Yeshivish" every time they say rabbis.)

The article is sorely in need of genuine scholarly data. From my experience, "Yeshivish" is nothing more than Yinglish mixed with Talmudic jargon. It is in no way a genuine dialect. marbeh raglaim 07:08, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Marbeh: Your request that "The article is sorely in need of genuine scholarly data" is odd, because the entire notion and construct of "Yeshivish" is new and is being constantly "invented" and "developed" as we speak here, so it is premature to expect "scholarly data" at this time, when very few gatherers of "scholarly data" have set foot in the world of Orthodox yeshivas, specifically in such places as the Lakewood yeshiva or the Mir yeshiva the hatching-grounds of pure "yeshivish"... IZAK 07:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

So what do you propose to do about the article? Keep it the way it is? Admittedly, the amount of scholarly info on Yeshivish is pretty scant, but one of the major problems with the article is that it draws several broad conclusions with very little backing. Either we need to find more relevant data or greatly reduce the article. We can't just keep it the way it is.

Sol Steinmetz's 1986 book Yiddish and English might be a starting point. Steinmetz examines Orthodox Jewish newspapers for examples of what he calls Orthodox English, finding sentences like the following: "In some shuls, the gabbai carries around three pushkas." Steinmetz does not mention the word Yeshivish, however, and one problem with his analysis is that he seems confused about the difference between Modern Orthodox Jews and Haredim. marbeh raglaim 22:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Marbeh: The article should not be cut down just because you disagree with it. And it's no surprise that Sol is confused since Yeshivish is a fairly recent phenomenon unique to the Haredi world (more specifically the American non-Hasidic world, since Hasidim have their own version of Yinglish!) Furthermore, Yeshivish has NOTHING to do with Yiddish newpapers (because the present-day yeshiva crowd does not read Yiddish papers, and the English Torah papers do NOT use Yeshivish) and the synagogues are not the breeding, or nesting, grounds of Yeshivish, which by definition is the language of the Lithuanian yeshiva world of the so-called mitnagdim. So at this stage, it's definitely with us, and in fact this Misplaced Pages article is probably gathering information from editors who know something about it themselves, but at the same time it is NOT "original research" but rather the true description of a new type of "Yiddish-English-yeshiva-language" used by tens of thousands, and more added all the time, Jews. IZAK 10:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Many yeshivish speakers know little or no Yiddish, especially those from non-religious backgrounds who have made their way into the Yeshiva world. The accent, IMHO, is also quite different, and so is the idiom. I have no doubt in my mind that we should keep these articles seperate. JFW | T@lk 07:22, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Many yeshivish speakers know little or no Yiddish

Heh, you're talking to one now! And I think I know Yeshivish pretty well, even though I never completed my yeshiva education. Once many years ago, I happened to meet my Ivrit teacher, who's Israeli, outside a Dunkin' Donuts (a kosher one, mind you), and he noticed the gemara in my car. I told him that I go to a "shir." He immediately corrected me. "It's shee-YOOR. 'Shir' is a song!" I told him, "I'm speaking Yeshivish, not Hebrew!"

By the way, I wasn't talking about Yiddish newspapers at all. The Steinmetz book I cited was examining the influence that Yiddish has had on the English of Orthodox Jews, even those who don't speak Yiddish fluently. From my experience, the primary difference between Yeshivish and other forms of Yinglish is that it uses an unusually high degree of Talmudic expressions. Its most distinctive features are more like a religious jargon than a dialect. Take, for example, the following sentence from an Orthodox Jewish blog I read: "This is one of the major problems I have with the mentality of the right. Everything is a Shaila!" Try translating that sentence from Yeshivish into English. "This is one of the major problems I have with the mentality of the right. Everything is a question!" Even when "translated," the sentence still cannot be understood by an outsider. That's why it's a jargon: it's not just that it uses unfamiliar words and expressions, but that it depends on a body of knowledge that outsiders lack.

Still, neither of you have addressed any of my specific objections to the article. I never said that I "disagree" with the article. The problems with the article have nothing to do with personal disagreements but with bad scholarship, plain and simple. I do not "disagree" with the statement that one distinctive characteristic of Yeshivish is attaching the English plural ending -s to words drawn from Hebrew, for example saying "yeshivas" (instead of yeshivos or yeshivot). I do not "disagree" with that statement; it is simply false. Non-Yeshivish speakers, including non-Jews, also say "yeshivas." marbeh raglaim 11:14, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Boyarin paragraph in Judaism article

There is somewhat of a debate as to the appropriateness of the above paragraph in the article Judaism vs. the article Jew. I'd request this illustrious's assemblage's opinions on the matter. A brief glance at the article’s history, together with the more recent entries and repartees on Talk:Judaism should be sufficient to give an overview of the issue. Thank you -- Avi 14:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Orthodoxy: Founded vs. Maintained

Another disagreement on which I am requesting project-member input: Please see Talk:Judaism#Orthodoxy: Founded vs. Maintained. Thank you. -- Avi 22:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Problem with Kugel (disambiguation)

I'm having a bit of a problem with a user who insists on adding irrelevant material to the Kugel (disambiguation) page. Most of the material is German language compound words, and German surnames containing "kugel", and I don't see the relevance to the English language page. I've tried to reason with the user, first on his talk page, then on the articles, but I don't seem to be getting anything coherent from him. He just says that he's "listed the article for translation" (see the article's talk page. Some sane voices are needed. Any suggestions what to do? Regards, Batamtig 10:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

too tings

not sure these will pique anyone's interest here, but here they are for your consideration:

Cheers, Tomer 06:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

JE citations

I've been working on converting a lot of Jewish Encyclopedia articles to Misplaced Pages and I've developed what I think is a good citation format for the reference section that incorporates both the JE article itself and the sources for that article. For example:

  • H. P. Chajes, Beiträge zur Nordsemitischen Onomatologie, p. 23, Vienna, 1900 (on the name);
  • Herzfeld, Gesch. des Volkes Jisrael, i. 185-189, 201-206;
  • Grätz, Gesch. 2d ed., ii. 236;
  • Schürer, Gesch. 3d ed., i. 182, 194-196; iii. 97-100;
  • Niese, in Hermes, xxxv. 509;
  • Wellhausen, I. J. G. 4th ed., p. 248, Berlin, 1901;
  • Willrich, Juden und Griechen vor der Makkabäischen Erhebung, pp. 77, 109, Göttingen, 1895;
  • A. Büchler, Die Tobiaden und die Oniaden, pp. 166, 240, 275, 353, Vienna, 1899;
  • J. P. Mahaffy, The Empire of the Ptolemies, pp. 217, 353, London, 1895;
  • Gelzer, Sextus Julius Africanus, ii. 170-176, Leipsic, 1885;
  • Weiss, Dor, i. 130 (on the halakic view of the temple of Onias).

My reasoning is that if you're going to take a public domain article wholesale from some source you should identify the sources cited in that article (saying "this article came from JE" when the article is a verbatim repetition of the JE text doesn't seem very helpful).

I'd like to try and get this accepted as a standard, but obviously not without some consensus on the issue. Does anyone have any thoughts on the issue? Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 12:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Looks good to me, but I don't use the JE as a source myself for a number of reasons.Kari Hazzard (talk | contrib) 13:15, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Kari, the issue of the Jewish Encyclopedia's reliability has come up on the talk page of another article. Why don't you like to use it as a source?Timothy Usher 07:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
A lot of major events have happened to and involving the Jewish people since the JE was released. The fact that the JE is in many cases out of date doesn't invalidate it as a source outright, but I'd prefer to be working with more recent sources. Kari Hazzard (talk | contrib) 12:24, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

JE article are very difficult to read, I think we should start a campaign to clean the articles that borrow heavily from JE. Perhaps a collaboration of the week. Anyone interested? Jon513 18:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Could be done. Can we get a list of articles that use the JE as a source? I'd be willing to help. Kari Hazzard (talk | contrib) 19:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
yes, Category:Jewish Encyclopedia. Jon513 20:15, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Considering the number of articles, that may only be a collaboration of the year. Pecher 07:56, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
In general the Jewish Encyclopedia articles about halakha or tanakh need the more clean up. Those that are biographies are not that bad. Jon513 12:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I've started the process at a few articles like Antigonus of Sokho, Onias, Jose ben Yochanan, where I've moved inline citations to footnotes in an attempt to streamline the text while preserving the citations to sources. The footnotes themselves I've tried to make more comprehensible, expanding obscure abbreviations and the like. I've also proposed this as a "to do" item at the Jewish History. Wikiproject. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 15:05, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

New article review: Get (conflict)

A serious, fairly new, article Get (conflict) (that is NOT part of the Get (divorce document) article) was posted by User:David91 and may require some serious review and further input and comment/s. Thank you. IZAK 10:37, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Xueta

A mess. See Talk:Xueta#A_mess. Among many other things, claims about Halakha that I don't think are accurate. But I'm pretty ignorant on the topic of the Xuetes. Perhaps someone here is clueful and can help fix the article? - Jmabel | Talk 23:49, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I've made one of my typically productive comments on the talk page there. Tomer 21:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

36000 non existing articles

You might be interested in:

Clinkophonist 19:44, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

In the name of all that is good and holy and not submersed in flavorful chocolate sauce... What the heck? Honestly, I'm more torn between DELETE (the obvious conclusion) and SPEEDY DELETE the likely second choice. I do not doubt whoever made those articles went to sufficient effort doing so... But they're so utterly pointless! Kari Hazzard (talk | contrib) 20:45, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Destroy. Please. This is an encyclopedia, not a running Biblical commentary. JFW | T@lk 22:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

AFD, please vote

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Criticism of Judaism and the article itself Criticism of Judaism. Not worth the bytes it's written with. JFW | T@lk 23:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Please see my comments below... Tomer 00:54, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Also, see my inline-note in the Islamic criticisms section to see it]. Tomer 01:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Please read and consider my note at Talk:Criticism of Judaism#Flawed premise. Tomer 02:21, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

POVpushers misreading and misrepresenting Norman Stillman

In Muhammad and in the above-mentioned Criticism of Judaism article, the claim is made that "some medieval Jews" called Mohammed "al-meshuggah"...

  • From Muhammad:
    In the Middle Ages, Jews usually referred to Muhammad as ha-meshuggah ("the madman" or "possessed"), a title contemptuously used in the Hebrew Bible for impostors who think of themselves as prophets.
    This has a footnote to
    Stillman, Norman (1979). The Jews of Arab Lands: A History and Source Book, p. 236, Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society of America. ISBN 082760198.
    Some of you may recognize the name of Norman Stillman from the fracas going on over at Talk:Banu Nadir. That aside, however,
  • From Criticism of Judaism#Islamic criticism comes this completely uncited gem:
    Defamation of Muhammad
    There are Muslims who feel that Judaism belittled and continues to belittle Muhammad. In the Middle Ages some Jews deemed Muhammad to be ha-meshuggah or "the madman." During the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy Muslims in several nations believed that followers of Judaism were somehow involved or supportive of the view of Muhammad.

Now, leaving aside the outrageous uncited assertions made in the "defamation of Muhammad" ("there are muslims who feel"...boohoo, but who?; Judaism belittled muhammad? how? Judaism belittles muhammad? how? Judaism is now a person that it can belittle someone in the past? "In the middle ages"...yank yank...Muhammad didn't live in the middle ages. "relevance, your honor." "During the Jyllands-posten...muslims in several nations believed..." yeah, um THAT'S BECAUSE THEIR LEADERS AND MEDIA LIED TO THEM AND TOLD THEM THAT CRAP! It's called "anti-semitism", not "criticism of Judaism", and saying "followers of Judaism" instead of "Jews" is just a weak way to incorporate this crap into the article, but I digress...), the problem with this is that Stillman is being cited in a way that misrepresents what he wrote: In The Jews of Arab Lands: A History and Source Book, on p. 236, there's a footnote to something the Rambam is writing to the Teimanim, in `Igereth Teiman. Specifically, the translation says (talking about false prophets):

The first to take up this course was Jesus the Nazarene, may his bones be ground to dust. He was of Israel. Later, there arose a madman who followed his example...

which is where we find Stillman's uncited footnote, which says:

Medieval Jewish writers commonly referred to Muhammad as ha-meshugga. The term was pregnant with connotations. In the Bible, it was used contemptuously for those who think themselves prophets (Jer. 29:26; Hos. 9:7). Furthermore, because the pagans of Mecca believed Muhammad to be just another poet or soothsayer , the Koran states that Muhammad is not mad or possessed. See for example Sura 81:22.

Now, after all that, what do I want to do? Until Stillman comes and provides us with a source that Medieval Jewish writers commonly called Muhammad "hammeshuggah", I want this crap removed. The fact that Stillman says that Jer. 29:26 and Hos. 9:7 are examples of contemptuous use of "meshuggah" to refer to people who think of themselves as prophets, leads me to regard his scholarship contemptuously. (Jeremiah says that the prophets were incarcerated with the insane, because of the corruption of the priesthood, and Hosea says the prophets are fools (not insane)--because of the iniquity of the people. In neither case is the usage contemptuous of the meshug`im, in both cases the meshug`im are victims of iniquity...) If it's true that medieval Jews referred to Muhammad as "ha-meshugga`", my guess is that it's for one of two reasons, if not both--they really did perceive him as crazy (a charge the Qur'an alone disputes) or because his followers were so bloodthirsty that if any Jew in muslimia had actually said the things about him that they were masking with "המשוגע", they would have been signing their death warrants. Now, that all presupposes that Stillman's interpretation of the Rambam's use of "a madman" is correct. Not only did the Rambam not call him the meshuggah, but it's just as likely that the meshuga to whom he's refering is Bar Kokhba, Paul, Nero (read this if that assertion confuses you), ... From what I'm seeing, Stillman's assertion is pretty flimsy, and way too flimsy to, on its own, stand in as a reliable source for the defamation of all Jews for all time, as the Criticism of Judaism article does.

Thoughts? Tomer 01:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

As a footnote...Hosea 9:7 does use the word "meshuga`", but it uses it as a description of "the man of spirit", not for prophets, as Stillman implies. Tomer 01:31, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Verifying a 17th centrury female "rabbi"

Asenath Barzani: The article about this alleged female "rabbi" needs some serious reviewing. Thank you, IZAK 05:22, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I see you are a bit incredulous, but the basic facts are in fact quite clear: Her title was Tanna’it, her job was Rosh yeshiba. Extant letters show that she struggled a great deal with fundraising. The article needs a bit of stylistic work and some sorting out of elements from historical documents vs. elements from Kurdish Jewish folklore, but that’s a different story. -- Olve 09:02, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Reminder: NPOV means multiple, sometimes uncomfortable POVs

Misplaced Pages's NPOV policy often means multiple points of view. This means providing not only the points of view of different groups today, but different groups in the past.... Adherents of a religion may object to a critical historical treatment of their own faith. They would prefer that the articles describe their faith according to their tradition and understanding, which often differs substantially from the view commonly held by critical historians. Non adherents of a religion may feel the exact opposite, and prefer that the views of critical historians be given primacy; many articles on Misplaced Pages currently reflect the latter point of view. NPOV policy demands both points of view be presented without prejudice. --WikiProject Judaism

I am sad to say that many members of this Wikiproject aren't adhering to these ideals at Banu Nadir, and those who have not are apparently reluctant to participate in mediation. I would like to ask the other members of this project to encourage them to do so. Thank you. Publicola 07:07, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

minor irritant

does anyone know why there are no tags on the various sections of the project page? Tomer 03:06, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Somebody posting anti-Semitic garbage

On the talk page to Sheldon Silver, scroll down and you will see that someone has posted anti-Semitic nonsense with lots of fake quotes from the Talmud. The standard stuff that has been debunked a thousand times. We need to do something about this. marbeh raglaim 16:15, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Removed. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 16:21, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Criticism of Modern Orthodoxy vs. Other Movements Unequal

The present Modern Orthodox Judaism article has a large criticism section. It is the only article on a major Jewish movement/denomination that has one. I suggest equalizing the treatment of criticism tof the major movements. Do people think this observation is a fair one? Would people prefer to remove the MO criticism section, or add analagous criticism sections to Reform Judaism, Conservative Judaism, etc. identifying the major objections each has gotten from its right and left? --Shirahadasha 20:41, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that it'd be most appropriate to start criticism sections for the other movements too, though I personally would not be the right person to write such sections. The fact that criticism of Reform and Conservative Judaism isn't being discussed in text is not a valid reason to cut out part of the MO article.Kari Hazzard (talk | contrib) 03:26, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that the two things are comparable at all. Every article that has legitimate verifiable criticism should have a criticism section. We do not need to add or remove criticism section so that all the articles are equal. That being said, there are many legitimate verifiable criticism of reform and conservative and they should be expanded. Jon513 20:12, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


Bad faith deletion of new article on Shefa'

Eliezer (under a new name) is trying to delete articles on real organizations. The claim he made on the Shefa Network page is false and disingenuous. The Shefa Network is a very real group, and in fact is already larger than many organizations that Misplaced Pages already has many articles on.

The Shefa Network already has several hundred members, they have their own journal, their own website, they have already had two major conferences, and two more conferences are planned soon. Yet Eliezer and a friend of his are trying to delete its article? Eliezer has refused to even discuss the issue on the article's discussion page, despite the fact that I am trying to engage in civil discourse. Eliezer and his friend haven't even tried to see if the group exists.

Note the timestamps; they tried to delete the article within minutes of its creation. They obviously didn't even try to read the group's official website, or read its academic journal. They certainly never went to any of Shefa's conferences! They also never joined Shefa's e-mail list and asked anyone about the group. Look, attempting to delete a page without even trying to ascertain the facts is clearly against Misplaced Pages policy. And doing so while refusing to engage in dialogue is editing in bad faith, by definition.

If someone somehow still doubts that this organization exists, I can arrange for an interview with its founder, or its journal editor, webmaster, and members of this organization who have been to Shefa's academic conferences. RK 14:02, 25 June 2006 (UTC)