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NOTICE: My user talk page is temporarily semi-protected to save work for those reverting a persistent sockpuppet. I am very sorry for the inconvenience. Yngvadottir (talk) 20:01, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Archive of my Did You Knows

New page

I want to create a Hindi Misplaced Pages page for my English Misplaced Pages Article - New R. S. J. Public School. Also i want to add map on my page. Can you do it for me or help me in doing so.Pratham 09:53, 6 April 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prathamprakash29 (talk • contribs)

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April 2014

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Category:Monuments and memorials in Finland

Hi. Can you find the Finnish equivalent cat? You might be interested in populating the category a bit!♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:21, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

They don't appear to have one. The general category of monuments is fi:Luokka:Muistomerkit, within which there are subcats for US monuments (Yhdysvaltain muistomerkit), Indian monuments (Intian monumentit ja muistomerkit) and monuments in St. Petersburg (Pietarin muistomerkit), but I can't find a country-specific category for Finland itself. Looking at articles in the category, I see relatively few that are Finnish monuments and haven't come across any I would want to translate; however, I found the category via fi:Turengin junaturma, on the deadliest train crash in Finland, on 12 March 1940 with 39 dead. If sources can be found, that is probably worth an article; or knowing how many rail mavens we have, it may already be written up somewhere. It's referred to in terms either of TurkuTurenki or of Harviala (Swedish Harvila), which is now part of Janakkala, and occurred during the Winter War; a troop transport train was involved. Yngvadottir (talk) 16:01, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

(tps) It's mentioned in List of rail accidents (1930–49)#1940 but there's no accompanying article. U.S. and British train crashes tend to be over-represented. One reason for this is the paucity of sources in English for other railway systems- for example the main English-language source for Ciurea rail disaster is a couple of paragraphs in a biography of L. B. Billinton with a passing mention in another book. That can be compared with the sources for Quintinshill rail disaster- half a library shelf! Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 21:27, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I'll do a search at some point; thanks for confirming that it isn't hiding under some other heading. I'm actually supposed to be doing my taxes today so I'm trying not to geek out on Misplaced Pages too much! I'm correcting myself above by the way - I don't really read Finnish. Yngvadottir (talk) 21:35, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

OK! If you do have time though to translate the remainder of Schottengymnasium and from German wiki I'd be grateful!♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:20, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

There's a lot there - no promises. I expect to post the thrice-damned tax forms today, but I'm also expected to help out with rewriting and adding refs to an AfD'd article, and a Dispute Resolution case is taking a lot of my on-wiki time. Sorry. Yngvadottir (talk) 15:22, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

@Xanthomelanoussprog: There were no contemporary press reports because of the wartime context, but the source cited at the list article, which is also the source given for the Finnish Misplaced Pages article, is quite good: it includes two newspaper articles and was posted online in association with a documentary on DVD. I also find another newspaper article, which, however, I can't evaluate because of a paywall. I was intending to boldly create a short article and hope those with the required language skills and better access to books and newspapers might eventually expand it (the monument was erected in 2000, so there is surely at least press coverage from then). However, right now I'm disinclined to work on new Finnish material, so unless someone else wants to pick it up now (in which case, ask and I'll add what else I've found), it will have to wait. Two odd things are that the monument does not appear to be mentioned anywhere in the article on the Turenki station, although that's apparently its location, and we don't have an article on the station, either. Yngvadottir (talk) 12:14, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

I had a look at the source (via auto-translate). It mentions a junior railway official from Harviala station as being found guilty of gross negligence and manslaughter, which suggests that the accident happened as a result of the official allowing a train to proceed when the line ahead was occupied, thus causing the collision. I've had a look at the area in satellite images, and there's two lines running to Turenki from the Harviala area, one of which is disused (it appears as a narrow tarmac track alongside a road). There's a road which crosses the other line at Harviala- this road is blocked by a steel fence. Next to the line at this point is an old wooden house which is parallel to the line- I'm guessing this is the site of the station (oh the wonders of Google!) …and the ghost of the official is still causing trouble! Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 07:41, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

(addendum) I've just found a photo of locos in the Harvialla area, on a narrow-gauge forestry line, which is probably the disused line. Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 07:44, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, my understanding is he was a trainee and had been on duty for something like 36 hours straight. He pled guilty and was sentenced to prison plus restitution. There had been another serious accident elsewhere on the Finnish rail network earlier the same month - several children who were being evacuated died. I'm glad the drivers were able to prevent the later accident. But Turenki station is still there, Google maps shows it, although I was unable to get Street View to show me the monument in situ, partly because they've redesigned their interface. You may have found the junction where the accident occurred; it was somewhere between the two stations. I hope one of our Finnish(-reading) editors writes it up; I could only do it briefly, staying within what I understand and being unable to see that other newspaper article. If no one does, I may come back to it. I think it's a needed article. Yngvadottir (talk) 12:37, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Took me ages to find it- the rear of the memorial is visible from the road to the station- it's in the car park. There's a distant view of the old sugar mill, but I was unable to locate it on the map. Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 21:03, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Ah yes, got it now, thanks - with a little path leading up to it. Hope someone writes it up. And the earlier one too; monument in a cemetery in Helsinki. Yngvadottir (talk) 21:11, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Hello! There is a DR/N request you may have interest in.

This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding a content dispute discussion you may have participated in. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help find a resolution. The thread is "Kvenland". Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you! EarwigBot 21:44, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Erlendur Haraldsson

Can you clarify the MOS for using Erlendur Haraldsson's name in the article? I did some cleanup of overweight on fringe and primary sourcing. But I'm not sure what the MOS convention is to referring to the subject: Erlendur? or (last name) Haraldsson? Thanks. - LuckyLouie (talk) 20:32, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

I've just reverted your changes in that respect; it's an Icelandic name and tehre is a template indicating that as such, he should properly be referred to as "Erlendur", not by his patronymic. Yngvadottir (talk) 20:34, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

His academic papers are listed by last name first, "Haraldsson, E.", so that's why I used that order in the article. An easy mistake to make. - LuckyLouie (talk) 20:35, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

The MOS also specifies that Icelandic names should be alphabetized by patronymic for most categories, but by first name for Iceland-specific categories. If you look at the list of his books, it follows the same convention: the Icelandic ones are alphabetized in the Icelandic fashion, the English versions with the patronymic first, as if it's a surname/family name. I think this is what is happening with international databases of journal articles, that they treat the patronymics as surnames. Yngvadottir (talk) 20:40, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. I think if you can build up the article with independent (non-parapsychology) sources that discuss his work in an objective way, the article will have a good chance of being kept. Best - LuckyLouie (talk) 20:45, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Can you please properly assemble the pictures on New R. S. J. Public School. Also please tell me how to add map of the school and 3d image of school on page. Pratham 09:14, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

You are doing fine.

I just wanted you to know that you are doing fine with your recent edit. Very much appreciated. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:15, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Oh good, thanks. Yngvadottir (talk) 03:55, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Google Books URLs

Hello. You reverted me just now (diff) and I thought I should discuss the point with you. I have been trimming these URLs for some years now, with no adverse comment. I have discussed these URLs in a Misplaced Pages training session. I believe I understand the basics of the referencing system. Much of what is "extra" in Google Books URLs is details of the search being used.

You wrote, in the edit summary, "full Google Books URLs assist readers in finding text". I don't really see that: they allow perhaps reproduction of the search.

My view is that I don't trim URLs as a "cosmetic" change to a page, because it makes no difference to the content. But the long URLs simply make pages harder to read in wikitext, and harder to edit. The initial URLs are of course still there in the page history. Charles Matthews (talk) 15:44, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Betacommand Bot used to do the same thing; I strongly disagree with it and wish I'd reverted the bot when I saw it doing it on my watchlist, but I was still pretty new and timid back then. For the reader, as opposed to the editor, the length of the URL concealed behind a link is immaterial. In the article in question, I quoted a lot of the relevant text, but I rarely do: it makes for long, tedious-looking footnotes. So what if the reader wants to check that the information is correct, or see more about what is said at that citation? (Those are the two reasons we have footnotes.) A link on a citation is a courtesy; there's no requirement to use sources that are online. I provide them overwhelmingly for readers. Possibly the entire text will be online, viewable in the reader's country. But very often, Google will not serve up the particular page I saw. In that case, the exact search provides wording the reader can then search for independently (often someone has quoted it, or has said something similar, or a different copy of the same book or digitization of the same article is viewable, on Google Books or elsewhere, from where the reader is). Or sometimes the exact words in my search demonstrate that the information is accurate (I aim for that in fact, but the way snippet view works, I can't always manage it). Just knowing the page number provides none of those advantages - and very little advantage over not having a link, unless the reader is lucky and can see what I saw. In short, I can't see any advantage to shortening Google Books links other than a trivial easing of the task of an editor - and we don't write for our fellow editors - and it significantly diminishes the information available to a reader - albeit information that I imagine relatively few readers want, still, in my view they should have it available to them. Yngvadottir (talk) 16:07, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

You say But very often, Google will not serve up the particular page I saw, and I have to imagine reasons that might be true.

I'm aware of the issue of Google's restriction by country: in the case of the Dictionary of National Biography, on which I work, I have done plenty to work to bypass Google Books entirely in favour of Wikisource, to help out UK readers.

It is true that the book codes Google uses are not warranted: it does happen that they retire one scan, and presumably post another of that book somewhere else, and I have experienced that kind of effect. It may be that you are thinking of snippet views, which I wouldn't think of as proper URLs to post here.

As I say, I have used Google Books in training, and if I have to learn more, I wish to do so.

I never go to pages solely to change URLs, but the ones that roll over several lines seem to me to be illegible in a serious way. Charles Matthews (talk) 16:44, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Only to editors. I believe you are in fact making a purely cosmetic change, and since it reduces information, I regard it as detrimental, although I admit it must be unlikely for a reader to click on them (and indeed at least one person who reviewed articles of mine at DYK never seemed to notice that the page numbers were often links). Google varies not only by country but by its determination of what a particular user should see - an unavoidable part of its algorithms. (That includes showing some users page views and others only snippet view.) For many books, however, it has more than one scan available - I've sometimes linked to different ones for different page references. Using snippet view is deprecated because there may be something contextually important not visible - but that is part of my rationale for including the complete search URL, which contains the full phrase I determined was germane, often more than is viewable within the snippet. (I also do a fair amount of searching around to see whether important caveats or other problems are lurking outside the snippet.) If I merely gave the page number with no link - or a link to the page, which in a snippet view will usually return a blank space - no one would be able to check my work in this respect. But equally importantly, the actual words may matter to the reader (and so may something else on that page), so I view giving the reader the full data as a service, in addition to greater transparency. I know you mean well, but in my view these considerations, even as a minor courtesy, far outweigh the possibility of a fellow editor's having to count ref tags or otherwise being minorly inconvenienced by the length of a URL in edit mode. Yngvadottir (talk) 17:04, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your views. My own is conditioned by training, in part, which field-tests the idea that potential editors can manage existing wikitext simply. The perceived need for a Visual Editor is of the same general nature: the problem we have to solve with some urgency is to grow the editing community, and that problem has no pat solution. So I do prioritise things a bit differently. Charles Matthews (talk) 18:14, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

NPOV Noticeboard

Finnedi has now brought the matter to the Neutral Point of View Noticeboard, but since he failed to notify you, as he should have, I'm doing it for him. Thomas.W 08:33, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Unfortunately work is busy and my brain is fried; I think I'll have to wait until I've got home and fed some hounds before responding. Yngvadottir (talk) 12:28, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Finnedi again?

Just FYI: I've opened an SPI on Nuutinpoika. It's not obvious like the other one was, but you might let me know if you see further suggestive edits. If it becomes obvious, I'll block without waiting for CU. (I understand they're backlogged.) Bishonen | talk 06:36, 14 April 2014 (UTC).

Thanks: I had noted, thought of opening an SPI, and decided there was insufficient evidence it's the same person. I'll keep an eye on the situation. Yngvadottir (talk) 11:40, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

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Rel your revert on the Hörgárdalur article

Hi User:Yngvadottir, Thank you for your prolific contributions to this encyclopaedia, especially the articles relating to Iceland. You've contributed significantly IMO to reversing the systemic bias that along with many other problems corrupts the integrity of the project.

Rel your reverts of my corrections to the above article, there IS a lot of authority, including WP authority (last pair of examples) for the use of semicolon as strong comma. In the case of your sentence that I amended, there is a comma breaking up the long introductory phrase attached to the second independent clause. As such, it w/b useful and appropriate to distinguish the break between independent clauses with a ; as a strong ,. However, if you as the article author are happy with it as is upon a second reading, I'll leave that up to you.

The proper name on the other hand, does need some help to pronounce per the WP authority I cited in my second edit summary because the initial letter in "Þelamörk" bears no resemblance to a modern English symbol. English readers must not be asked to learn Icelandic--although I am 100 percent in favor of them doing so!--to understand pronunciation of words in English WP articles. This is logically necessary as well: What is the point of placing a symbol with no clarification, so that almost no one comprehends what it says? It is no different from any other alphabet that shares only SOME letters in common with ours. In Cyrillic, for example, there are many such letters in common, some of which even have the same sound as their English counterparts. Nevertheless, transliteration is always required for Cyrillic text. Please fix it however you wish since you did not like the way I did it. I grant that all EXCEPT the first letter are adequately Roman/English. Kind regards, Paavo273 (talk) 20:20, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't know whether you noticed that I kept the new sentence where you had made it, but I think the semicolon suggests too much of a break - the ridge is on the other side of the valley from those high western peaks (which I would have said, only that's OR from a map '-) ). On Þelamörk, in my view pronunciation guidance would be useful if it were to be worthy of an article, but I don't judge that it is, or it would have joined all the other red links. We don't invent anglicised versions of placenames, and I haven't seen this one anglicised in the guidebooks - so the other argument comes into play, that mentioning it with accurate spelling and a bit of an explanation helps those who may want to look it up on a map when planning a tour, or seek it out on Misplaced Pages after seeing it on a map or in a book. But until I find it referrred to somewhere - which is always possible, with either archaeological digs or saga mentions or both - I don't think it's worth it. Yngvadottir (talk) 20:33, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi again and thanks for the super-fast reply. I see now you changed the semicolon I placed to a period and started a new sentence. Rel the naming, in addition to the substantial authority I cited above, there is the logistical problem that in English we simply don't have that symbol. Not only can the English reader not UNDERSTAND it, he/she cannot REPRODUCE it. I really don't want to cause you grief about this. You've done Misplaced Pages a great favor by adding an article about this beautiful place as with the many other articles you've created. Could you just please put the transliteration in parenthesis after the proper Icelandic name or not object to my doing so? We don't need to Anglicize it; just transliterate the foreign symbol so English speakers/readers who want to write it or REFER TO IT using their own alphabet instead of learning a new one can do so. The usage on Google seems to be "Thelamörk" for English, and German, too. IME it's common for English to borrow, and within WP guidelines to use, the diacritical marks with letters English has in common with foreign languages, especially vowels, but not so much whole new letters. Thanks. Paavo273 (talk) 21:15, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

As I say I would if it were worthy of an article, but it's just an aside. The guideline appears to refer to articles. Yngvadottir (talk) 03:11, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to put it in parentheses as you suggest, since after a search of my own I see it being discussed as a source of geothermal energy and it's just barely conceivable someone may search on it (although they are perhaps equally likely to search for the hotsprings baths). However, I do think you are overgeneralising a guideline meant primarily for article names, and secondly for terms (i.e., words the reader needs to understand rather than just read), as opposed to placenames with no common English version. And obviously it all applies more obviously to words in other alphabets. Yngvadottir (talk) 07:46, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• Hi and thank you for adding the English transliteration.
• The guideline I cited is from the WP manual of style, the first sentence of which states, "is a style guide for all Misplaced Pages articles"; and I can find no suggestion there that this particular guideline applies only to article titles. (The request, "Spell a name consistently in the title and the text of an article" in the third paragraph of the spelling and romanization subsection provides IMO no basis to infer the subsection is referring only to article titles.) If you have some actual basis to believe that this refers only to article titles, please point me to it.
• IMO there doesn't need to be a specific JUSTIFICATION for following the rule nor a foreseeable probable use of the term in question, although I would agree if it were a stupid guideline, there may be grounds to change it or just disregard it. In this case, IMO, logic, common sense, and reader useability are all on the side of the guideline.
• There is further direction HERE (third paragraph), which states, "If there is a reason to include a term in a non-Latin script, it can be placed in parentheses."
• In the final analysis, it comes down to being able to USE and REPRODUCE the word in English. As I've studied these "guidelines" more, IMO pronunciation would be only a secondary issue if at all.
• I grant that Icelandic is perhaps a little unique inasmuch as only a few symbols/letters, especially including the two (voiced and unvoiced) TH symbols, are entirely foreign to and unrecognizable in English. Paavo273 (talk) 03:23, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Exactly - Icelandic uses the Roman alphabet plus 2 additional letters; it is not non-Roman. The same issue comes up with several other languages, though: off the top of my head, Turkish has an undotted i and there's a schwa sign in one or more Central Asian languages. As I say, I am reading the guideline differently from you insofar as its mention of article titles and emphasis on words (rather than names) make it seem aimed at things other than what we have here: a brief mention of a placename, not even red linked. I accepted your argument that it does occur in English-language sources with the initial Þ replaced, but I remain unconvinced that the guideline is meant to be applied to every proper name mentioned in passing in the encyclopedia, or even every one where the name starts with an untypeable letter. For one thing, as I've said, I believe what the reader needs most in such cases is the accurate name plus the information from our article of what it is; secondly, we are part of the internet, so copying and pasting is trivial; thirdly, unless one happens to know how to type the particular character in one's operating system (and has the extended keyboard, in Windows), items starting with any other alt. characters present the same problem, so if we carry this to the logical extreme we would have to pepper the encyclopedia with transliterations in case a reader wanted to look up a geographic name, or a person's name, where the first letter has a diacritic and where there is no wikilink. (Our own search brings up diacritic versions of letters, but not, I believe, when it's the first letter, unless someone has provided a non-diacritic redirect as is proper). As I say, it's not that I hold the rule in comtempt, it's that I believe you're overgeneralizing it. However, since my own search found what you had found, that there are English-language mentions of the placename with Th, I went ahead and added it. Yngvadottir (talk) 03:46, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

My Apologies

I humbly and sincerely apologize for naming you as a blocked troll: a Finnish or Finnophilic troll has been churning out a large number of sockpuppets, including "BryndisYngvadottir," in order to harass user Favonian ever since Favonian blocked it for vandalism/editwarring. I got confused when the troll was re-editing Favonian's talkpage.--Mr Fink (talk) 20:53, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes I guessed as much - Finnedi was who you meant, he's why this page is semi-protected. That's ok, I just wondered what I'd done :-) Yngvadottir (talk) 20:56, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Have some cut cheese as a peace offering?--Mr Fink (talk) 21:12, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

I want to add a language (Hindi) of my school page. How can i do so.Pratham 04:25, 18 April 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prathamprakash29 (talk • contribs)

A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Good Humor
	Thanks for helping me in past. Hope you will continue helping me. Pratham 10:22, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

The map which i added was removed by some wiki user. Can u please bring it back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prathamprakash29 (talk • contribs) 09:46, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

I deleted them as they were copyright violations. Please use OpenStreetMap instead as it provides good-quality maps under Misplaced Pages-friendly licences. Nick-D (talk) 10:13, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Hideway

By the way, where is 74- /¤? Hafspajen (talk) 14:31, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Heh.

I'm afraid we may have lost him/her :-( They were talking with me on IRC almost every day and mentioned several times that they had got sick - then *poof* no more 74 :-( I hope it's just normal Real Life. Yngvadottir (talk) 14:55, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

OH, no. I don't wan't to lose... 74. Hafspajen (talk) 15:30, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Me either. I respect his/her privacy and hope it's just a fantastic new job or something. Yngvadottir (talk) 15:40, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Fantastic I hope. Broadway, Hollywood or such. Hafspajen (talk) 16:51, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for April 21

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A barnstar for you!

	The Admin's Barnstar
	For the excellently well-measured response to User:B!ttu, and for taking the correct and appropriate steps at each point. Slashme (talk) 20:45, 22 April 2014 (UTC)