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This article was nominated for deletion on June 10, 2013. The result of the discussion was keep per Snowball clause.

The contents of the Edward Snowden in Hong Kong page were merged into Edward Snowden on June 16, 2013. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page.

A news item involving Edward Snowden was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the In the news section on 2 August 2013.

This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations: Michael Jaccarino (August 04 2013). "Snowden a friend or foe? Misplaced Pages fight takes both sides". Fox News. Retrieved August 4, 2013. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help) Ryan Gorman (August 04 2013). "Someone within the US Senate edited Edward Snowden's Misplaced Pages page to change his description from 'dissident' to 'traitor'". The Daily Mail. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

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Citation for Live Q&A

The titel in the citation for the Live Q&A has an error but I can't edit the article. Can anyone fix it? I also archived the link. The new citation would be:

here

Do we use RS, or BDell555, in determining content?

The latest edit summary from BDell555 is: as explained, and as has been explained, on Talk, the narrative supported the most reliable sources does not support the implication that the U.S. "stranded" anyone

He admits that he is not keen to use RS, but rather his own OR. This, my friends, is EXACTLY the problem I have been trying to point out for literally months. There is no reason this argument should continue to hold sway over this article and talk page. It is 100% backwards according to my read of the Misplaced Pages guidelines. We go with RS EVEN if/when they have it wrong, because we are not allowed to include our own research here. Can you imagine the anarchy if we did? So why is it allowed at the Snowden article?

To keep OR out of this most crucial bit of information, I added a direct quotation from the Guardian: stranded in the Moscow airport transit zone...on 23 June, after US authorities annulled his passport while he was travelling from Hong Kong petrarchan47tc 23:14, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

"According to my read of the Misplaced Pages guidelines," writes petrarchan47, "we go with RS EVEN if/when they have it wrong." That is appalling—a blueprint for an Encyclopedia of Misinformation assembled not by editors but by robots. JohnValeron (talk) 03:57, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

We have many reliable sources saying Snowden was "stranded". In fact, most of the sources use this concept. Note that this is a passive construction—Snowden was not stranded by the US who wished him to be stranded, he was stranded by the overall situation of having an invalid US passport, and by Russian authorities not allowing further travel. Brian Dell's reverts appear to be based on his certainty that the US did not intend to strand Snowden in Moscow's airport. Well it is obvious that Snowden being stranded is not an accusation that the US did it on purpose. Instead, the US wanted Snowden arrested and sent back to the US. Binksternet (talk) 04:52, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Question to the community

Is it time to hold an RfC about what exactly we can say regarding the passport/stranding situation? Does the RS hold up, or are we swayed by the arguments (if anyone can read or understand them) repeatedly put forth by BDell555? petrarchan47tc 23:21, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Can someone sum up the argument against including "stranded" without attribution or qualification? No more than 200 words max please. Also no references to any editors or to the history of this argument. Kendall-K1 (talk) 23:34, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Hopefully! petrarchan47tc 06:32, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

I think that BDell should be the one to explain it to Kendall in 200 words or less. Gandydancer (talk) 13:54, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Per WP:LEAD, the lead should mention significant controversies. In our present instance, the word "stranded" is challenged because it signifies the controversy over whether or not Snowden was forced by the U.S. government to discontinue his flight upon landing in Russia. As now written, the lead presents only one side of this controversy, citing The Guardian report that Snowden was "stranded in the Moscow airport transit zone on 23 June, after US authorities annulled his passport while he was travelling from Hong Kong." The lead also cites Snowden's WikiLeaks escort Sarah Harrison to the effect that Snowden was unable to leave the transit zone with a revoked passport.

When this incident is described in the body, however, we suddenly encounter a controversy to which the lead fails to allude. Let me flesh out the relevant sources cited in the first paragraph of subsection 3.2 Russia:

• From an AP report: "A U.S. official on Sunday said Edward Snowden's passport was annulled before he left Hong Kong for Russia. Snowden's travel plans could be complicated—but not thwarted—by a lack of passport. The U.S. official said that if a senior official in a country or airline ordered it, a country could overlook the withdrawn passport."
• From another AP report: "Russian President Vladimir Putin says Snowden is in the airport's transit area after flying in from Hong Kong on Sunday. Authorities in Moscow say he is not officially in Russia and is free to leave. His best bet could be to seek political asylum from a country that would grant him safe passage. … 'Having documents to travel is not a prerequisite to applying for asylum,' said Laura Padoan of the United Nations refugee agency. The U.N. agency says there are established procedures allowing countries to grant travel documents for the resettlement of refugees who do not have passports or other papers."
• From SPIEGEL: "From a legal standpoint, bringing Snowden to Germany does not pose a significant problem. The fact that he does not have a valid passport would not stand in the way of his departure, nor would it prevent the Russians from allowing him to board a flight to Germany. Upon his arrival at a German airport, he could apply for asylum. … If there were no risk of flight, there would be no grounds for taking Snowden into custody. Experts are virtually certain in ruling out the possibility of Snowden actually being extradited to the United States, since the German-American extradition treaty does not apply to 'political offences.'"

Why is this controversy broached in the body but omitted from the lead? Granted, per our due weight policy, articles should not give minority views as much attention as more widely held views. Misplaced Pages aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources. But that does not mean a minority view must be excluded from the lead. "When reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence," we are instructed, "describe both approaches and work for balance." Whichever editors addressed this issue in the body obviously concluded that AP and SPIEGEL are reliable sources and equal in prominence to The Guardian and Sarah Harrison. Thus, after quoting Barton Gellman on Face the Nation that Snowden was "literally changing planes in the Moscow airport when the United States revoked his passport," our editors cite a source directly contradicting Gellman: "A US official said that Snowden's passport was annulled before he left Hong Kong." This is great. With both sides of the controversy in immediate proximity, we can make up our own minds as to which is more believable.

Why can't the same approach be employed in the lead? Why do we get only one side of the story there? I submit that the controversy—not among editors but among equally reputable and equally prominent sources—over the timing of Snowden's cancelled passport and his capacity to nevertheless resume his trip, compromises any use of the loaded word stranded in the lead. Please, let's stop playing the Edward Snowden victimization card long enough to strike a seemly balance. JohnValeron (talk) 00:09, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. It doesn't seem like much of a controversy to me. Your first source relies on an anonymous US official and doesn't say that Snowden wasn't stranded. Your second source actually says that he was stranded. Your third source doesn't say that he wasn't stranded, in fact it says he would be arrested if he went to Germany. It also isn't talking about his stay at the airport, but later after he left the airport. We don't know why he was stranded, but we have several sources that say he was, and none that say he wasn't. The issue of when his passport was revoked hardly seems worth mentioning in the lead. Kendall-K1 (talk) 07:30, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

2-Person Consensus: As now written, the lead states: "… and his passport was revoked by the State Department on June 22." Since you and I agree that, as you write, "The issue of when his passport was revoked hardly seems worth mentioning in the lead," I will exercise WP:BOLD and delete the date, which will flush out members of the Misplaced Pages editorial community who disagree with us. Hopefully, they will also read this Talk exchange and take a moment to explain why the date of revocation is, in their opinion, required in the lead. JohnValeron (talk) 16:54, 29 March 2014 (UTC) Again acting on our consensus that the date his passport was revoked is not worth mentioning in the lead, I shall also delete the phrase "… while he was travelling from Hong Kong" from The Guardian quotation. JohnValeron (talk) 17:09, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't call that consensus, I don't like the word "thereafter," and I prefer edits that make the lead shorter. I'd like to cut that paragraph way back, and get rid of all those references. Ideally there wouldn't be any refs in the lead. Kendall-K1 (talk) 17:22, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

I used the word thereafter because that sentence begins, "On June 21" and since we no longer specify a date of revocation, readers could easily misconstrue it as being on June 21. As for cutting that paragraph way back, I encourage you to exercise WP:BOLD and trim the lead to show us how it ought to look. Capital idea! JohnValeron (talk) 17:51, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Irrespective of Stranded: If we can agree that an anonymous U.S. official quoted by the Associated Press constitutes a source at least equal in reliability and prominence to Snowden's WikiLeaks escort Sarah Harrison, I propose adding to the lead—immediately following "he was unable to leave the transit zone with a revoked passport"—the following, with citation to its AP source: "The Associated Press, however, cited an anonymous U.S. official who said that if a senior official in a country or airline ordered it, a country could overlook the withdrawn passport, thus allowing Snowden to continue his travels." JohnValeron (talk) 17:51, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Anonymous U.S. officials are not sources. Sarah Harrison is not a source. The AP is a source. See WP:RS. I have taken you up on your offer, and avoided "stranded" since some people don't like it. Kendall-K1 (talk) 23:13, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your editing. The lead's troublesome third paragraph is now much improved. I fully support this version and encourage other editors to do likewise. JohnValeron (talk) 23:43, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Numerous RS used the term "stranded", and it matters absolutely naught whether a couple Misplaced Pages editors "don't like it". You don't get to cut apart a paragraph leaving no actual information just because one guy complains on the talk for months, and then another pops in all of the sudden to make his arguments for him. I'm calling bull.petrarchan47tc 03:49, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

I want to know where BDell555 is, and why John Valerian appears to be speaking for him. When I try to get a handle on this months-long edit war, someone always jumps in and completely shifts the focus. Last time it was Dr F. Why are people covering for BDell555? Why not let him continue his argument so we can get closure? I would appreciate that, because I am always the one left to deal with him Thank you. petrarchan47tc 04:10, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Please let me state categorically for the record: I am not speaking for Brian Dell or any other Misplaced Pages editor. I obviously jumped the gun in declaring a 2-person consensus with Kendall-K1, who rebuked me accordingly and for which I apologize. But I am participating here in good faith with the object of providing much-needed balance to this article, which is overly sympathetic to its controversial subject. JohnValeron (talk) 15:55, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

So you admit to having a bias - one that is in alignment with Bdell555 and Dr F. I am uncomfortable with your assumption that this article needs to be more negative towards the subject. You seamlessly stepped in to support Dr F when he was alone in arguing this very thing, and when he was alone in supporting BDell555 (just as we were getting somewhere with calling attention to the edit warring in January, ending the process in an instant). I notice you suddenly popped in and made a critical edit at The Day We Fight Back, again seamlessly on the heels of Dr F (by one day). I'm not calling you a sock, but there is and has been somewhat of a partnership that I must call attention to, as this problem with Bdell555's consistent edit warring has continued because of Dr F's using this page to retaliate against me personally rather than to deal with the article-related issues here, and completely railroading the beginnings of a very healthy, cathartic conversation, and because this game playing has kept us from addressing a very real problem that almost ended my WP editing altogether.

The conversation about Bdell555's edits needs to happen - I am unwilling to deal with it for another 6 months or weeks. Those who've just stepped in cannot recognize the game that is being played here - but it is clear to me. This section is about Bdell555's edit warring, and it is up to him to finally explain and defend what he has been doing since December. What he has been doing, with regularity, has taken up countless hours of my time, and of a few others. One needs only to scan this talk page to see what we've been required to read, and scan the edit history to see the edit warring. I am finally asking: should we be required to deal with BDell555 any longer, and whether there is validity to his arguments or not - because ultimately if there is not, the editors should no longer be required to deal with him.

Maybe a request for comment on user is needed. But for now, please stop confounding this serious situation at an article you've dropped into during the height of talk-page controversy. Your edits and arguments are tendentious and you've admitted to the reason. If you feel the article as a whole is just too friendly towards Snowden, be responsible and create a new section to voice your concerns. I will note that Dr F is now in agreement with me and refuses to support Bdell555 in this passport edit war, though I am not expecting an apology. He disappeared... but here you are as if only the name has changed. And Bdell555 is suddenly is nowhere to be seen, meaning he will be back once the noise dies down, leaving me to deal with him by myself, again. petrarchan47tc 16:56, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

At the very least John, use the talk page rather edit warring over passport information in the lede. Can we agree to this? I thought this was a given. petrarchan47tc 17:10, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Notwithstanding your paranoid fantasies, my only "bias" here is in striving for fairness. In becoming interested in Edward Snowden, I was disappointed to find a Misplaced Pages article that leans over backward at every step to depict him in the most favorable light, while autocratically rejecting any attempts to balance this controversial subject. I will continue to make edits as I see fit, and you will no doubt continue to revert my edits. So be it. Perhaps eventually we will reach a stalemate. If, at that point, this article is more balanced, I will be satisfied. JohnValeron (talk) 17:17, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Voice your concerns with specifically how this article is biased in favor of Snowden in a separate section, please. "eans over backward at every step to depict him in the most favorable light" - can I assume this is in reference the subject at hand, the passport situation? I would argue that a read of the article shows it covers both sides fairly in general, and that what I have leaned over backwards in favor of, is simply getting the fact straight. If you have arguments about how the facts are bing misrepresented in the (current) Lede with regard to the contested para, please state them here: petrarchan47tc 17:24, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

To review, let's first look at the evidence against the "stranded" thesis, and then also at the absence of reliable evidence for:

NOTABLE EVIDENCE AGAINST
The Washington Post speaks of "Snowden’s ability to board an Aeroflot flight Sunday to Moscow, despite the revocation of his passport and the warrant for his arrest..." If Snowden can leave Hong Kong "despite the revocation of his passport" why can't he similarly leave Russia?

A "leading authority on international refugee law whose work is regularly cited by the most senior courts of the common law world" has said that Snowden could have walked out of the airport at any time as the transit zone is legally the same as the rest of Russia: "Moscow airport is as much a part of Russia as is the Kremlin. Many nations pretend that airport transit lounges are not part of their territory, indeed not under their jurisdiction. As a matter of international law, this is completely false." In the print version of the South China Morning Post there is an article titled "No passport, no problem" and in there we read "Even though the US had cancelled his passport, Snowden could still leave Russia, Simpson said, saying sovereign nations had the right to act on their own." See also the AP and Spiegel quotes provided by JohnValeron earlier in this thread.

Wikileaks says that Snowden's passport had not yet been revoked at the time he left HK, only getting revoked while he was in the air, yet according to Wikileaks they arranged a Ecuadorean temporary travel document for Snowden so he could leave Hong Kong. Why couldn't he just use his U.S. passport to leave Hong Kong if it hadn't been revoked? And why couldn't the same Ecuadorean document be used to leave Russia and continue on towards Ecuador?

WEAK EVIDENCE FOR:
"there isn't a trace of him -- except, of course, for the steady stream of quotations that the Russian news agency Interfax gets from a mysterious source supposedly 'close' to Snowden."
How reliable is Interfax?
"the headlines of Russian news agencies were rather misleading.... concealing the Kremlin's involvement"
Example of Interfax conflicting with the New York Times:
"The New York Times has managed to speak to an Aeroflot reservations agent who said Snowden's ticket to Moscow was one-way and didn't include any onward travel. ..." versus "Interfax, the Russian news agency, is saying .... there is a ticket in the American's name for a Moscow to Cuba flight". New York Times again: "Russian news services reported that Mr. Snowden would take a Monday afternoon flight to Cuba... But others dismissed it as a ruse..."

When a particular source for the stranded claim is identified who was in a position to know, it is Anatoly Kucherena, Snowden's "only link with the outside world." Who is Kucherena? "a man with close ties to the Kremlin and a knack for misleading the press" Before Snowden's name ever appeared in the news, Kucherena was calling for the prosecution of those who developed software that could help users evade government surveillance. Kucherena is frequently contradicted. He claimed that Snowden "did not enter into any communication with our diplomats when he was in Hong Kong" but Putin has acknowledged that "Mr. Snowden first appeared in Hong Kong and met with our diplomatic representatives."

After 24:35 of this interview the interviewer's body language suggests great skepticism ("so we're told") about Kucherena's claim that Snowden was stranded in the transit area. When the interviewer suggests the capsule hotel claim is dubious, Kucherena replies "But there’s more than one hotel." Why would Kucherena say that when Kucherena has elsewhere insisted that "He was stuck there the entire time in this capsule hotel"? Kucherena is all too willing to tell you a second story if you don't believe the first one. Kucherena once admitted that there have been "many expressions of doubt about whether he is actually living in the airport transit area," but "I've met him many times, he's there!" Why would Kucherena feel he needed to correct the "many expressions of doubt" unless the doubt is serious?--Brian Dell (talk) 03:16, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Why are you bothering to post your original research about body language? Binksternet (talk) 03:18, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

You know what the evidence comes down to? Kucherena's claim that he couldn't have left the terminal because "If he had been able to leave the terminal, at the very least he could have gotten another shirt. I have seen him in the same clothing over and over again." Kucherena says that's what he's going on. And then every other source in turn relies on Kucherena. Not exactly rock solid.--Brian Dell (talk) 03:34, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps it's gone unnoticed, but as the article now stands, the only use of the hotly contested word is part of a quotation from Sarah Harrison under the Temporary asylum in Russia section: "I was travelling with him on our way to Latin America when the United States revoked his passport, stranding him in Russia." The word no longer appears in Misplaced Pages's voice. JohnValeron (talk) 03:42, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

A synonym has the same problem. The claim should not go into the lede without attribution regardless of which word is chosen unless the reliably sourced material that places the claim in grave doubt is also acknowledged.--Brian Dell (talk) 03:04, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

If by synonym you mean statement in lede that Snowden was "caught in limbo," please note that it appears within quotation marks and is attributed to LA Times. JohnValeron (talk) 03:51, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

OK, let's use a LA Times story by Sergei L. Loiko. But let's not cherry pick our LA Times stories by Sergei L. Loiko, how about? How about we use this one which says "The United States canceled Snowden's passport before he left Hong Kong on a flight to Moscow on June 23. Snowden was believed to be planning to transfer in Moscow to a flight to Cuba, and from there make his way eventually to Ecuador. However, he has missed several flights to Cuba and has not left the transit zone of Sheremetyevo-2 airport, according to the Russian Foreign Ministry." Note 1) unequivocal statement that passport was revoked "before he left Hong Kong and 2) attribution of the "not left the transit zone" claim to the Russian government. This is what I mean by attribution: Misplaced Pages:Citing_sources#In-text_attribution.--Brian Dell (talk) 07:02, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

It's difficult to talk about this because the lead's contentious second paragraph changes every few minutes as each side in turn petulantly reverts the other side's edits. At this instant, it reads in pertinent part: "The United States federal government charged Snowden with espionage and revoked his passport. Snowden then flew to Moscow…" (emphasis added). Doesn't that satisfy your desire to clarify that the US canceled his passport before he left Hong Kong? As for adding in-text attribution to the LA Times for the phrase "caught in limbo," please note this example to avoid at Misplaced Pages:Citing_sources#In-text_attribution: "In-text attribution can mislead. The sentence below suggests The New York Times has alone made this important discovery: 'According to The New York Times, the sun will set in the west this evening.'" Similarly, if we were to write that Snowden was, "according to the LA Times, 'caught in limbo,'" readers might mistakenly infer that only the LA Times reported such a complication. JohnValeron (talk) 18:28, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

I did not change "...passport. Snowden then flew to Moscow..." and have no issues with that. The issue here is asserting a causal relationship between the US government's actions and Snowden being stuck in Russia without even using attribution never mind acknowledging the other sources that have expressed doubt. "Stuck" = "stranded" = "caught in limbo", no? The issue is saying he's been grounded by his passport when legal experts say that's not true. You previously agreed that the claim is questionable yet now you think that if a synonym is used that's all it takes to becomes as solid as "the sun will set in the west this evening"?

The New York Times never, in fact, "discovered" anything about Snowden in Moscow and neither did any other western based source. They are simply repeating what Russian source(s) say they discovered. We could settle this by using this LA Times material: "RUSSIAN AUTHORITIES SAY that Snowden has remained in a transit area of the airport..." It seems to me that some editors don't like that story because it also quotes a commentator saying "The Chinese siphoned all the information out of Snowden and in a very smart fashion shook him off to Russia" and that's supposedly irresponsible journalism. But for another sort of claim the same paper and same author becomes highly reliable? Why not use this by the same author in the same paper: "The United States canceled Snowden's passport before he left Hong Kong on a flight to Moscow on June 23. Snowden was believed to be planning to transfer in Moscow to a flight to Cuba, and from there make his way eventually to Ecuador. However, he has missed several flights to Cuba and has not left the transit zone of Sheremetyevo-2 airport, according to the Russian Foreign Ministry." Just what is wrong with that? The "according to the Russian Foreign Ministry" part? Deutsche Welle writes "...Snowden had already been in the transit area of the airport for three weeks. At least that is what the Russian authorities claimed; journalists hadn't seen Snowden..." so attributing to the Russian government is not unique to the LA Times.--Brian Dell (talk) 19:38, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I previously agreed that the claim of Snowden being "stranded" is questionable, and I still think so. As I explained earlier, I consider stranded a loaded word because it self-servingly victimizes Snowden, painting him as helpless in the face of forces beyond his control, when there is (as you have tirelessly pointed out) reliably sourced reporting to suggest he could have continued his journey without a valid passport. For example, AP cited the United Nations refugee agency as saying there are established procedures allowing countries to grant travel documents for the resettlement of refugees who do not have passports.

In this regard, I was particularly impressed by your objections early last month to using stranded in Misplaced Pages's voice.

• If you want to claim he was "stranded" in a Moscow airport, that claim should be attributed instead of using Misplaced Pages's voice.--Brian Dell 22:17, 1 March
• Again, "stranded" is fine IF it is attributed to Snowden (or Greenwald or Kucherena etc.)--Brian Dell 19:28, 3 March
• Currently, "stranded" is being stated in Misplaced Pages's own voice and I don't have a problem with that because of the context, which includes an attributed explanation.--Brian Dell 03:05, 5 March

More recently, Brian, I have endorsed Kendall-K1's edited lead of 23:07, 29 March and A1candidate's version two days later. Alas, both fell by the wayside.

I am now again satisfied with this part of the lead, which declares that without a valid passport, Snowden was "caught in limbo." The key here is putting that phrase within quotation marks. For readers who presume Misplaced Pages's voice is speaking, that punctuation serves as scare quotes, alerting the reader that the phrase (in Misplaced Pages's words) "should be understood to include caveats to the conventional meaning." Other readers, who presume this phrase is quoted directly from a source, will find it within our inline citation after the sentence. To me, this is an acceptable compromise that avoids stating the bogus "stranded" in Misplaced Pages's voice yet conveys Snowden's precarious situation that may have been mostly of his own making. JohnValeron (talk) 23:07, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

"intended to change planes" has better proof than "why Snowden did not board an onward flight is unclear"? Where is the clarity coming from? That's so indisputable that using Misplaced Pages's voice instead of attributing is appropriate? If he intended to do so why didn't he? There's never been a satisfactory explanation for why not. A revoked passport didn't prevent him from getting on a plane departing Hong Kong for another country. Why didn't he use that document issued by Ecuador to continue onwards? It wasn't disowned by Ecuador until days later. The New York Times says reports of onward travel were just a "ruse." Under Russian law permission is only required to NOT board an onward flight within 24 hours. "but without a valid passport was 'caught in limbo'" clearly blames the passport for not changing planes as intended and presents the passport as the explanation for being 'caught in limbo'. This is the narrative the partisans want you to believe: it's the US government that explains Snowden's presence in Russia. This narrative should be presented to the reader, and in the body of the article it is, but in the body of the article the problems with the narrative are also noted and we also see in the body just who is making the claim (namely, partisans who, when presenting the narrative as they believe it get details like just when the passport was revoked demonstrably wrong). The lede should not be making stronger, more unequivocal claims than the article's body (or the sources) support.--Brian Dell (talk) 01:10, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for replying. In focusing on "caught in limbo" within quotation marks as a substitute for stranded with no quotation marks, I overlooked the immediately preceding "without a valid passport." Whether or not that construction "clearly blames the passport for not changing planes," as you write, it does create the potential for serious misunderstanding. Indeed, the more I look at the LA Times source for this sentence, the less satisfactory it becomes.

• He was intending to change planes in Moscow, apparently for Latin America, but was caught in limbo when the United States canceled his passport.

By using the preposition "when" for causal effect, the LA Times does clearly blame the passport for not changing planes. By obscuring that point, Misplaced Pages's current paraphrase is unfaithful to its source and is therefore unacceptable. JohnValeron (talk) 15:48, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Edit warring in the lede instead of voicing concerns on talk and waiting for consensus

I note that instead of engaging on the talk and answering these questions, John is now completely reworking the Lede. I would argue that drastic changes to the Lede be discussed here first, and that to make drastic changes one needs a good knowledge of the subject, the story, and what is contained within the body of the article, as the lede is supposed to summarize all of this. Right now it's being used as a battleground. Please stop. petrarchan47tc 18:02, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Please stop ordering me around like a schoolmarm. And please stop pretending that I am the only editor presently striving to improve the lead. Check the article's Revision History tab. JohnValeron (talk) 18:09, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

What's the rationale behind the inclusion of Snowden's travel dates, passport details, and itinerary changes? This is not Wikitravel. -A1candidate (talk) 18:13, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

I fully support deleting ALL mention in the lead of travel dates, passport details, and itinerary changes. JohnValeron (talk) 18:17, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, I tried. Kendall-K1 (talk) 23:22, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Here's a suggestion. Don't put anything that requires attribution in the lead. Leave that stuff for the article if you must. So nothing about how Snowden said he was headed to Cuba (or wherever), nothing about how the Russians said he was free to go, etc. Just stuff that actually happened, like that he flew from HK to Moscow. If we start putting in what people said, this edit war will not end. Kendall-K1 (talk) 00:42, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Kendall-K1, rest assured your efforts have not gone unappreciated, at least by me. I was satisfied with the lead as you left it as of 23:07, 29 March 2014. Regrettably, Petrarchan47 saw fit at 04:01, 30 March 2014‎ to "add back some information," thereby precipitating a renewed exchange of edits. As it now stands, thanks mostly to A1candidate, I am again satisfied with the lead. We'll see how long it lasts. JohnValeron (talk) 01:24, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

The Lede has became a mess because it has been hit with edit warring for months now. The refs aren't supposed to be included, but we have had new editors pop in and put citation needed tags in the Lede (even though the details were in the body), so I took the easy route and added refs. Also, since the 'how Snowden ended up in Russia' story, which is a very big part of Snowden's story, has taken the brunt of the edit warring, dates and random details have been added as editors wrangle over how the story is told. It shouldn't sound like a travel itinerary, it should sound like RS, which states it very very simply, but which BDell555 has been arguing non-stop against, and that is how the dates ended up in the Lede. I will show you how RS talks about it in the following section, and I ask again why we aren't allowed to say it simply. To say "Snowden flew to Moscow and has been living there..." is not sufficient and it is misleading. He didn't intend to fly to Russia. If we can find RS that talks about his winding up in Russia like this, without mentioning how he got there, and if it outweighs the sources that state unequivocally that he was "stranded" or "stuck" there, we will have to go with that telling. But we don't choose text just to quiet complainers on the talk page. We go with what RS says, and try to state it similarly to keep our own OR out of it. petrarchan47tc 05:47, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

"'Snowden flew to Moscow and has been living there...'" is not sufficient and it is misleading." It is on the contrary both accurate and solidly sourced. "He didn't intend to fly to Russia." Then why did he? Fact is, he went there and stayed there, and none of the excuses for why he failed to continue on to a third country stand up to the scrutiny that other reliable sources have applied. The people who have tried to spin the story that somehow the U.S. government picked him up and dropped him in Russia cannot get their story straight.--Brian Dell (talk) 18:00, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

RS on Snowden's Russia stay

Previous conversations here and here and here

• * had been effectively trapped at Moscow's Sheremetyevo International Airport since June 23, when he arrived on a flight from Hong Kong. He was intending to change planes in Moscow, apparently for Latin America, but was caught in limbo when the United States canceled his passport.
• * Russia, though it was initially supposed to be a stopover, perhaps on the way to Ecuador
• * The transit lounge in Moscow's Sheremetyevo Airport has become the latest world hotspot with American whistleblower Edward Snowden reportedly stuck there amid a war of words between the United States and Russia.
• * Kucherena said he handed the asylum papers to Snowden today, and Snowden then left the airport, where he has been stuck since arriving from Hong Kong on 23 June.
• * The Russian president defied U.S. calls last week to hand over Snowden, who remained stuck in the transit area of Moscow’s Sheremetyevo airport days after arriving on June 23 from Hong Kong
• * “I was only transiting through Russia,” he wrote. “I was ticketed for onward travel via Havana—a planeload of reporters documented the seat I was supposed to be in—but the State Department decided they wanted me in Moscow and cancelled my passport.”
• * Snowden was supposed to fly to Havana after a 22-hour layover in Moscow, and connect to either Bolivia or Ecuador. However, he did not board the flight, to the chagrin of nearly the entire Moscow press corps who found his reserved seat 17A empty.

The United States pressured Cuba to prohibit the flight from landing if Snowden was on board, several sources told the newspaper. Cuba was one of the countries that the United States threatened with “unfavorable consequences” if it accepted Snowden, a source close to the State Department was quoted as saying by Kommersant.

A Russian official told Kommersant that before flying to Moscow, Snowden spent two days at the Russian consulate in Hong Kong. Snowden told the Russians that he planned to ask for political asylum in a Latin American country and presented a ticket to Havana, with a 22-hour layover in Moscow, dated June 23. He said that his life was in danger and asked for help, citing international conventions for refugees.

• * Moscow was initially intended as a temporary stopover on his journey, as Snowden was believed to be headed to Ecuador via Cuba. However, he ended up getting stranded at Sheremetyevo Airport after the US government revoked his passport. Snowden could neither leave Russia nor enter it, forcing him to remain in the airport’s transit zone.
• * According to Russian news agencies, Snowden landed in Moscow on a flight from Hong Kong, where he was met by officials from the Ecuadoran embassy. Snowden, who is reportedly staying at an airport hotel, is said to be en route to Ecuador via Cuba and Venezuela.

WikiLeaks, which has been assisting Snowden since he blew the whistle on NSA's surveillance program, said that the former government contractor is "being escorted by diplomats and legal advisers from WikiLeaks." Ricardo Patiño Aroca, Ecuador's foreign minister, confirmed on Twitter that the government theree had indeed "received an asylum request from Edward J. #Snowden."

• * Associated Press reported Snowden landed in Russia’s capital and appeared to be headed for Cuba on Monday and then on to Caracas, Venezuela.

But other reports said Snowden eventually wants to land in Ecuador.

The Wall Street Journal reported that U.S. officials said they would pursue Snowden regardless of wherever he seeks refuge.

His flight came after Hong Kong declined a U.S. request to extradite the man who revealed information on highly classified National Security Agency spy programs.

• * Diplomats and law enforcement officials from the United States warned countries in Latin America not to harbor Mr. Snowden or allow him to pass through to other destinations after he fled Hong Kong for Moscow, possibly en route to Ecuador or another nation where he could seek asylum.

Mr. Snowden managed to elude capture just as American officials were asking the Hong Kong authorities to detain and send him to the United States on charges that he illegally disclosed classified documents about global American surveillance programs. He was aided in his escape by WikiLeaks, the antisecrecy organization, whose founder said he helped arrange special refugee travel documents from Ecuador.

• * Former U.S. National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden will fly from Moscow to Cuba on Monday and then plans to go to Venezuela, a source at the Russian airline Aeroflot said on Sunday.

The source said Snowden was already on his way to Moscow from Hong Kong and would leave for Havana within 24 hours.

The South China Morning Post also reported that Snowden had left Hong Kong for Moscow and that his final destination might be Ecuador or Iceland. The WikiLeaks anti-secrecy website said Snowden was heading for an unnamed "democratic nation".

The flight to Moscow prompted speculation that Snowden might remain in Russia, whose leaders accuse the United States of double standards on democracy and have championed public figures who challenge Western governments.

But Putin's spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, said he was unaware of Snowden's plans and the Foreign Ministry declined immediate comment on whether he had asked for asylum.

• * As Washington put pressure on Hong Kong to extradite him, Snowden boarded a flight to Moscow on June 23. He was booked on another flight from Moscow to Cuba, presumably en route to seeking asylum in a Latin American country.

But he never got on that flight. The United States had cancelled his passport, so he lacked documents to board the plane or enter Russia — leaving Snowden stranded in an airport no man's land.

• * Snowden was initially expected to fly onward to Cuba on Monday, rendering speculation moot that Russia could offer him asylum. But according to media reports, he was not on the 2 p.m. flight from Moscow to Havana. Pushkov said, however, that it wasn't likely that Moscow would grant him asylum, despite previous indications to the contrary. Russian news agencies had reported on Sunday, citing employees of the Russian airline Aeroflot, that Snowden intended to fly onward from Cuba, possibly to Venezuela.

The foreign minister of Ecuador, however, said on Monday that the country was currently looking at an asylum request from Snowden and suggested that it could be the final destination of the NSA informant's journey. "We are analyzing it with a lot of responsibility," Ecuadorian Foreign Minister Ricardo Patino told reporters in Vietnam, which he is currently visiting.

I note that most of these sources are quite hedged and imprecise in what they say and to the extent that Misplaced Pages also takes a cautious approach, there is no conflict here. In the few cases where the claims about exactly where Snowden is, was, or is doing in Russia are unqualified, you continue to miss the point, Petrarchan. It doesn't matter how many sources you find when they are all secondary to a primary source that is demonstrably unreliable. Repeating a bogus claim does not salvage the claim. The PRESUMPTION is of reliability. Here, that presumption has been thoroughly rebutted by those sources that have sought to verify the claim. Show us a source that has attempted to VERIFY the claim and successfully done so and then, and only then, will you have answered the objections. Luke Harding is an example of a independently aligned reporter (if anything, he is sympathetic to Snowden) who investigated the claim and he was unable to verify it. You are ignoring the many sources that raise grave doubts about the claim, starting this new section, for example, instead of responding to the sources I called attention to in an earlier section. In some cases there are outright contradictions between sources, and you have never said anything about how you would resolve those conflicts beyond just picking the source which tells the narrative you prefer and demanding that it be included without consideration of conflicting sources.--Brian Dell (talk) 17:52, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Note the editor here who says "not reliable" in boldfaced text and then goes on to say "the BBC citation... is just reporting what the Xinhua citation says. It is not an independent source." This reflects the editing community's view of how sources should be analyzed. Another editor in that thread says "If a reporter saw it with his own eyes, then it can be used and this is a good source for facts (but to be reliable, it has to come from a reliable media, and probably has to name the reporter). Ideally two independent witnesses are needed. If a reporter is just repeating a press release/statement, then this is pure hearsay..." That standard is not official in any way yet it is still worth noting that we have here doesn't come within a million miles of that standard.--Brian Dell (talk) 03:24, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Hawaii photo

We could use a photo from Hawaii to brighten up this otherwise drab looking article. Kendall-K1 (talk) 22:41, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Public opinion polls needs to be condensed

Public opinion polls are a great inclusion, but needs to be condensed and written in a couple paragraphs, using the other sections in the article as an example. How much weight/space should public opinion polls take? My opinion is, no more than 2 paragraphs. petrarchan47tc 05:37, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Public opinion polls

Polls conducted by news organizations following Snowden's disclosures to the press of secret government surveillance programs found that American public opinion was divided.

• June 10–11, 2013: Gallup poll showed 44 percent of Americans thought it was right for Snowden to share the information with the press while 42 percent thought it was wrong.

• June 12–16: USA Today/Pew Research poll found that 49 percent thought the release of information served the public interest while 44 percent thought it harmed it. The same poll found that 54 percent felt a criminal case should be brought against Snowden, and 38 percent disagreed.

• June 12–16: The Washington Post-ABC News poll cited 43 percent of respondents saying Snowden ought to be charged with a crime, while 48 percent said he ought not.

• June 17–18: Rasmussen Reports found that 12 percent of American adults viewed Snowden as a hero, while 21 percent considered him a traitor.

• June 15–July 1: The Economist/YouGov poll tracked public opinion over three consecutive weekends, comparing results from June 15–17, June 22–24 and June 29–July 1. Asked their view of Snowden, respondents indicating "favorable" rose from 40 percent to 42 percent then down to 36 percent. "Unfavorable" grew steadily from 39 percent to 41 percent to 43 percent. Those supporting his prosecution increased from 27 percent to 34 percent and held there; those opposed steadily declined from 32 percent to 31 percent to 25 percent.

• July 1–2: The Huffington Post/YouGov poll found that 38 percent of Americans thought Snowden did the wrong thing, 33 percent said he did the right thing, and 29 percent were unsure.

• July 17–21: NBC News/The Wall Street Journal Survey found that 11 percent of Americans viewed Snowden positively while 34 percent had a negative view.

• June 28–July 8: Quinnipiac University Polling Institute survey found that 55 percent of Americans regarded Snowden as a whistleblower while 34 percent saw him as a traitor. When Quinnipiac repeated the poll from July 28–31, the results were unchanged.

• July 28–29: Among likely U.S. voters surveyed by Rasmussen Reports, 32 percent considered Snowden a traitor who endangered lives and national security, whereas 11 percent called him a hero.

• November 14–17: The Washington Post-ABC News poll found a significant shift in opinion as to whether or not Snowden ought to be charged with a crime. In contrast to the same organizations' June poll, November's results showed 52 percent favoring his prosecution (up from 43 percent) and 38 percent opposed (down from 48 percent). Similarly, when asked whether, irrespective of his being charged with a crime, Snowden was right or wrong to disclose the NSA intelligence-gathering efforts, 37 percent said he was right and 55 percent said he was wrong. All told, nearly two to one (60 percent versus 32 percent) thought Snowden's disclosures had harmed U.S. national security.

• January 15–19, 2014: USA Today/Pew Research poll reported little change from the previous June on the question of the government pursuing a criminal case against Snowden, with 56 percent in favor and 32 percent opposed. The poll found that people younger than 30 offered the least support for prosecution, being evenly divided at 42 percent in favor and 42 percent opposed. Over all age groups, opinion was also nearly equally divided as to whether or not Snowden's disclosures had served the public interest: 45 percent said yes, while 43 percent said Snowden harmed the public interest.

• January 18-20: The Economist/YouGov poll likewise found Americans evenly split, with 43 percent viewing Snowden favorably and 41 percent unfavorably; 46 percent approving his leaks and 43 percent disapproving; 28 percent supporting his prosecution and 29 percent opposed.

• January 22: CBS News poll revealed a larger split (almost 3:1) as to whether or not Snowden ought to stand trial for his actions, with 61 percent in favor and 23 percent saying he should be granted amnesty. CBS News also differed from Pew Research on the issue of whether or not Snowden's disclosures had been good for the country, with 40 percent saying yes and 46 percent saying it had been bad. When asked to come up with a word that best describes Snowden, nearly a quarter of respondents volunteered either "traitor" or a similar word questioning his loyalty to his country, while 8 percent said he is "brave" or "courageous" or "a hero." Just 2 percent volunteered that he is a "patriot" or "patriotic," and another 2 percent said "terrorist."

• January 22–25: NBC News/The Wall Street Journal Survey found continued low public approval for Snowden, with 23 percent supporting what he did, 37 percent opposing it, and 39 percent expressing no opinion.

• March 26–28: The Huffington Post/YouGov poll found that 31 percent thought Snowden was right to leak top-secret information about government surveillance programs to the media, while 33 percent believed he was wrong; 45 percent favored his prosecution, with 34 percent opposed; and 35 percent would support a presidential pardon, with 43 percent opposed.

So apparently John Valerian didn't just create all this, he moved it from another article. It should have been moved to Commentary on Edward Snowden's disclosure, which I will do now. petrarchan47tc 07:18, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

If you feel to write up a summary of these polls for this article, that would make sense. But we have spin off articles for a reason - this one is too long to support a blow by blow of every single public poll ever taken. petrarchan47tc 07:22, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Agreed this list doesn't belong in this article. Both of you might also want to read Misplaced Pages:Copying within Misplaced Pages, which gives some attribution guidelines to follow when copying material from one article to another. Kendall-K1 (talk) 10:49, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

More edit warring over Snowden being stuck/stranded

When will we be done with this edit war? As I explained in the edit summaries today, if RS isn't questioning the story, and since ample sources say he was stuck (most use the word "stranded", but that word caused 4 months of talk page hell, so...) we should have no problem saying it here. I used CBS news today since the last source troubled Valerion. It says: Snowden had been stuck inside the transit zone of the airport since he arrived June 23. He could not enter Russia because he did not have a Russian visa and he could not travel to safe haven opportunities in Latin America because the United States had canceled his passport. from ABC. petrarchan47tc 19:32, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

(After more edit warring) The Lede is a condensed version of the body, which should represent the balance of RS on the topic. There is no wide array of sources questioning the claims we've got in the Lede, which I quoted from the ABC source above so there would be no problems. The UN blurb is already in the body. It does not warrant mention in the Lede. petrarchan47tc 19:42, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

RS are most certainly questioning the story. You just don't like those RS and have been removing them. Your preferred version of the lede does NOT reflect the body of the article because when this comes up in the body of the article context is given and who is making the claim is also identified.--Brian Dell (talk) 20:26, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

No, you don't get to just state that. I have left lists of RS saying exactly what we claim in the Lede - even Dr F has told you that you have no case as you are arguing against stacks of articles using the very language we do. petrarchan47tc 20:32, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I do get to point out everything you are ignoring in order to push your bogus narrative. You still have yet to respond to that as opposed to just repeating your demand that we only look at the sources you prefer (sources that all ultimately rely on either the Kremlin or a Snowden partisan).--Brian Dell (talk) 20:42, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

No, you need to bring articles which clearly state your position. I have done that repeatedly. What did your buddy Dr F say? "There is consensus that "stranded" is reliably sourced and appropriate for the lead." and "When you're disputing an account made by dozens and dozens or reputable news sources, you've got to start asking yourself, are you trying to build an encyclopedia or are you trying to promote a fringe conspiracy theory instead?" petrarchan47tc 06:48, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

petrarchan47, in your edit summary at 19:25, 8 April 2014, you contend: "RS does not doubt the story we tell in Lede." Yet my edit cited an AP article that does indeed cast doubt on your partisan account. Moreover, for you to proclaim that the Associated Press is not a reliable source is preposterous—on a par with your earlier Talk absurdity: "We go with RS EVEN if/when they have it wrong…" As far as I am concerned, you have zero credibility as a Misplaced Pages editor, and I shall henceforth independently confirm and where appropriate challenge whatever you contribute to this article. JohnValeron (talk) 22:02, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

My statement was not a reflection of what I do or prefer, but what the guidelines state. An example showing the absurdity of this rule is here. It's funny that you call my direct quote from ABC news "my partisan account". You're a silly one, I'll grant you that. petrarchan47tc 05:58, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

JohnValeron The preponderance of RS supports exactly what we had in the Lede at the time:

"The United States federal government charged Snowden with espionage and revoked his passport. On June 23, Snowden flew to Moscow's Sheremetyevo International Airport, where he intended to change planes, apparently for Latin America. He was then stuck in the transit zone for 39 days; according to ABC news, he "could not enter Russia because he did not have a Russian visa and he could not travel to safe haven opportunities in Latin America because the United States had canceled his passport". On August 1, Russian authorities granted him a one-year temporary renewable asylum."

I have shown that to be the case many times, starting here. Our current SYNTH version of this story in the Lede cannot be found, as we have it presented, anywhere in reliable sources. I'd like to point out that what you call 'my partisan account' is actually the account told by RS. petrarchan47tc 03:32, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Snowden stranded in Russia by Ecuador?

Who else could serve to explain Snowden's presence in Russia when one is unwilling to accept the obvious (the obvious being Snowden and/or Russia)? Ecuador, apparently. I see this is the speculation du jour. The timing of the document cancellation doesn't work any better (the U.S. cancellation was too early to be blamed, the Ecuadorian too late) but full points to Binksternet for some creative thinking here and for, shall we say, creative use of sources. We don't find this theory in the body of the article but I see it's currently in the lede.--Brian Dell (talk) 23:36, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

I can't fathom why you want to let stand this doubly dubious statement in the lead:

• "He was then stuck in the transit zone for 39 days, most likely because his safe passage had been canceled by Ecuador and he had no other valid travel documents."

First, since the United Nations refugee agency has confirmed there are established procedures allowing countries to grant travel documents for the resettlement of refugees who do not have passports or other papers, that part of Binksternet's sentence is false on its face. Second, have we really sunk to the level of indulging "most likely" conjecture in the lead? To whom, exactly, is this most likely?

I'll support anyone, even Petrarchan47, who strikes that nonsense. My respect for Misplaced Pages editors is rapidly dwindling. JohnValeron (talk) 00:30, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

The UN procedures allow countries to grant passage. If no country grants passage, then the individual is stranded. Also, the time frame of such procedures is not established. Binksternet (talk) 00:49, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

To which UN procedures do you refer? I'd appreciate a link. JohnValeron (talk) 00:58, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Gee, it was you who brought up UN procedures here. That bit is from this version of the article as put forward by Brian Dell. The AP source published by Yahoo! News says that "'Having documents to travel is not a prerequisite to applying for asylum,' said Laura Padoan of the United Nations refugee agency. The U.N. agency says there are established procedures allowing countries to grant travel documents for the resettlement of refugees who do not have passports or other papers." I guess your question could be answered by Laura Padoan. It is my guess that the UN process takes at least a few days, and probably quite a bit longer. If Snowden had initiated the process of asking one or more countries for travel documents, which is very likely, he would still have been stuck in Moscow for some days waiting for the responses, just like was reported. Binksternet (talk) 12:36, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Gee, thank you for confirming that you are merely guessing about the timeframe of such procedures and have no factual basis for speculating. JohnValeron (talk) 16:37, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

The timeframe of your version is that the safe passage document from Ecuador's London consul was "canceled" on June 27. The source says it was "publicly disowned" on June 27. That wording allows for a back channel cancellation which stranded Snowden. Binksternet (talk) 18:13, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Correction: July => June. The source also says that VP Biden called Ecuadorean President Correa to apply pressure against granting Snowden asylum. The phone call from Biden is not dated in the source, but it may have come before Snowden had a chance to board his flight to Cuba. Binksternet (talk) 18:39, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

U.S. pressure on Ecuador does not equate to U.S. pressure on Cuba and with respect to Cuba "Fidel Castro labels libelous report Cuba blocked Snowden travel". This would have been more plausible had Snowden become stranded in Havana. The one scenario that is completely problem free is "Why Snowden did not board an onward flight is unclear"--Brian Dell (talk) 19:19, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

The New York Times reported on June 29, 2013, that Vice President Biden called Ecuador's President Correa the previous day—June 28, one day after Ecuador canceled Snowden's safe passage issued on June 22. The subject of this high-level conversation was Snowden's pending request for asylum in Ecuador. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/30/world/americas/ecuador-leader-says-biden-called-him-about-snowden.html JohnValeron (talk) 23:36, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

I am not inclined to let it stand; although I agree with Binksternet's first sentence immediately above (if "stranded" means the whole country as opposed to an airport, legal experts say there isn't a distinction) I don't agree with his second (Snowden was good to go doc-wise on June 24 and didn't). Rather than edit war (there's been a lot of that today already), however, we should give editors some time to encounter this theory and respond to it.--Brian Dell (talk) 01:05, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that while you are patiently waiting for editors to encounter Binksternet's "theory," unsuspecting readers are exposed to this unrebutted rubbish as if it were founded in fact. That is irresponsible, Brian. JohnValeron (talk) 01:17, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Petrarchan's edit warring burned up our reverts for the day. Don't expect Binksternet to give either of us another one just because the reason they got burned up was because Petrarchan went to to 6RR in less than two and a half hours. Or for Binksternet to refrain because my third revert was of you. He has made it very clear to me just when he thinks it's appropriate to try and get someone blocked under WP:3RR, and that's every time there is a "legal" possibility and that someone isn't on the exemption list, like Petrarchan.--Brian Dell (talk) 07:00, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

I'll note something else about this Ecuador theory: "there were Russian undercover agents all over the terminal where we believed him to be. It was really clear that the Russians were in charge of the situation here. There were Ecuadorian diplomats milling around trying to get to talk to him but the Russians seemed to be controlling everything here."--Brian Dell (talk) 21:40, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

"All I can say, being at the airport until 1am last night," reports The Guardian's Miriam Elder, "is that there were Russian undercover agents all over the terminal where we believed him to be." Gotta hand it to those Russian "undercover" agents. They sure know how to attract the attention of a UK journalist. JohnValeron (talk) 21:54, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Stranded

Folks, I do apologize. I had to re-add the "stranded" as I simply cannot escape it. 90% or more of the sources I read use this terminology, and state it very simply. I looked for a source to suport the statement that had been added to the Lede Why he did not board the plane is unknown. I did not find any source supporting this, I found more sources saying he was stranded there by the US revocation of his passport. If RS says it, we are obligated to do the same. The bit added about Ecuador doesn't make sense to me. It seems like SYNTH. No article connects this Ecuador information in their telling of the "stranded" story, and we WP editors aren't allowed to make these connections unless they are already made in RS. Since this is also Fringe, it needs to be removed from the Lede.

WP:SYNTH - Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. This would be a synthesis of published material to advance a new position, which is original research. "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article. If a single source says "A" in one context, and "B" in another, without connecting them, and does not provide an argument of "therefore C", then "therefore C" cannot be used in any article. petrarchan47tc 23:01, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Later note: OK, the Ecuadorian temporary passport information is good, but I don't think it belongs in the Lede. Though I am not going to press on that issue, it does seem overly-detailed for the Lede. petrarchan47tc 23:09, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

RS indicate that it is demonstrably false that the US government stranded him anywhere. If he could get from Hong Kong to Moscow without a valid US passport, he could have continued onwards as well. The RS is clear here and the sources repeating what Russian sources have claimed are demonstrably not reliable on this point, however reliable they might be on other points.--Brian Dell (talk) 02:54, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm uneasy with Brian's latest edits to the lead, in which he has twice inserted the word "reportedly." Look, everything we know about Snowden is based on news reports. We could use the word "reportedly" at least once in every sentence. But the more often it's used, the more "reportedly" stands out as an editorial weasel word. I don't understand why we need it anywhere. JohnValeron (talk) 03:12, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Why does the BBC use it then? Why does Der Spiegel: "Edward Snowden has reportedly been inside the transit terminal of a Moscow airport for days now, but there is no evidence to prove it."? There is a distinct difference with THESE "news reports" claiming "stranded" and that's that they have been contradicted and/or come up short in terms of independent verification. The other alternative is to use attribution and attribute the claim to those making it: Kremlin officials and/or Snowden partisans.--Brian Dell (talk) 03:22, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

As it stands, the lead states: "Without a valid passport, Snowden reportedly remained stranded…" At that point we insert an inline citation to a BBC article, where the word "stranded" appears only once, in a photo caption that reads: "Edward Snowden is reportedly stranded in a Moscow airport transit zone." The BBC does not attribute "stranded" to the Kremlin or anyone else. It is strictly in the BBC's own voice. So the question becomes, Who is reporting that Snowden is stranded? Is it the BBC? If so, why don't they just say Snowden is stranded? It's a shell game. The whole thing is bogus. JohnValeron (talk) 03:43, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

He was ticketed for onward travel

Here we are again. Bdell555 is trying to say that this story has been dis-proven, and has removed it due to his stance that Russian sources are unreliable no matter what.

In this change, with the edit summary The NYT reported on June 23 that their source at Aeroflot said Snowden did NOT hold an onward ticket. You cannot ignore these conflicting sources just because you don't like them. If making a disputed claim, use attribution. (here to Russian sources), Bdell555 removed:

He was ticketed for onward flight to Latin America via Cuba,APReutersNew Yorker

And changed it to:

purportedly to take another flight (to Latin America via Cuba, but he did not board that flight)

To my knowledge there has not been clear evidence this story isn't true. I'm lost as to where the past discussions ended up, but I feel as if we've been here before. Is everyone on board with allowing this same argument to continue? Has Bdell555 brought a clear succinct, understandable case to show that Russian sources are automatically unreliable? Also, seriously, this is disruptive and should be stopped, don't you think? petrarchan47tc 02:01, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

It's obvious he was ticketed for travel to Cuba, otherwise two dozen very jaded journalists would not have fought to get on that flight so they could (hopefully) interview Snowden. Binksternet (talk) 02:12, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

BDell555 claims we need to source the claim to Russians, but Snowden himself stated he was "ticketed for onward flight" in the New Yorker. It doesn't sound right to add the caveat "according to Snowden and the Russians" since it conveys to the reader that there is doubt about their claim. petrarchan47tc 02:43, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

BDell555 also added "reportedly" as a caveat to "stranded", since he couldn't remove it altogether. Well, that also conveys doubt (well done!) where there is none. We simply have too many sources using the term not to unabashedly use it here. petrarchan47tc 02:45, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

It may be obvious to you, Binksternet, that Snowden was ticketed for travel to Cuba. But after reading The Washington Post dispatch that you link to, what's obvious to me is that 24 journalists in Moscow were salivating like Pavlov's dogs at the prospect of catching sight of the world's most wanted man. The Post doesn't explain how the rumor started that Snowden "bought a ticket for a trans-Atlantic flight," only that there were such unspecified "reports." The Post does tell us, however, that "not a single person had so much as glimpsed Snowden in an airport lounge."

In The New Yorker article petrarchan47 links to, Snowden says: "I was ticketed for onward travel via Havana…but the State Department decided they wanted me in Moscow, and cancelled my passport." If we are to take Snowden's word as dispositive of his being ticketed, should we not also regurgitate his nonsensical assertion that the State Department cancelled his passport because they wanted him in Moscow? Hell, while we're at it, let's just cede editorial control of this Misplaced Pages article to Ed Snowden or one of his journalistic cronies, and let them tell their side of the story unchallenged. JohnValeron (talk) 02:59, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

We do not throw into Misplaced Pages every last rumour and only keep it out if there is "clear evidence this story isn't true." That is not the way things work around here. If you want to include something dubious, then at at minimum the article should say "according to..." or something like that. We see here: "The New York Times has managed to speak to an Aeroflot reservations agent who said Snowden's ticket to Moscow was one-way and DIDN'T INCLUDE ANY ONWARD TRAVEL." If you are going to contradict that then you should identify who is claiming the contradictory story. The New York Times also says "Russian news services reported that Mr. Snowden would take a Monday afternoon flight to Cuba, prompting a late rush for tickets from the horde of journalists gathered at the airport. But others dismissed it as a ruse to put the news media and others off Mr. Snowden’s trail." I raised this here on the Talk page in January and you, Petrarchan agreed at that time that "If you are mainly saying 'let's attribute this to Russian media as the NYT did', then I agree 100%." Now, of course, you are going back on your word, instigating an edit war over something you previously indicated you wouldn't edit war over.--Brian Dell (talk) 21:37, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Brian, you embed a link to The Guardian, which states: "The New York Times has managed to speak to an Aeroflot reservations agent who said Snowden's ticket to Moscow was one-way and didn't include any onward travel." However, within that quotation at The Guardian is a link to a 2-page NYT story that makes no mention of an Aeroflot reservations agent, Snowden's ticket to Moscow, one-way or onward travel. What is your purpose in citing this unsupported claim? JohnValeron (talk) 22:21, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

I would argue that is almost certainly still the case that the NYT spoke with an Aeroflot person (who wasn't "on message") and got this (honest) answer (unlike the Russian news agencies). I recall noticing it at the time and the Guardian evidently did as well. That the NYT subsequently dropped it from their story does not mean it never happened.--Brian Dell (talk) 01:12, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Then what does it mean? Are you suggesting that someone pressured the NYT to drop this from their story? JohnValeron (talk) 01:30, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

What it means is that, with a few exceptions, the western media has had no backbone when it comes to challenging the narrative spun by the Kremlin. The NYT reports that their independent investigation revealed no onward ticket. The Russian wires then flood the media with the tale that there IS an onward ticket. Other western media outlets start reporting that, attributing to Russian news agencies (and weeks later simply for shorthand purposes start dropping even the attribution). The NYT then faces an editorial decision to directly contradict the Kremlin line or just express the skepticism involved in calling it all a "ruse." They decide to content themselves with "ruse" and withdraw what's attributed to their Aeroflot source out of conservatism. Or simply a lack of moxie in the face of the Russian propaganda machine. That doesn't mean that contradictory Aeroflot source doesn't exist.--Brian Dell (talk) 03:04, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

"Kremlin" my ass. You are the only one who is spouting nonsense about the Kremlin directing the media. Binksternet (talk) 04:45, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

The one-way ticket from Hong Kong to Moscow is entirely believable, and does not cast any portion of the story into doubt. Snowden was leaving Hong Kong in a big hurry, so he bought one ticket. Moscow was where he would buy his next ticket, after he sorted out his travel options. Binksternet (talk) 04:54, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

He would have to had Kremlin permission to do this (or a Russian visa), which means Kremlin collusion, and so the Russian news agencies say you are wrong, Binksternet. The Russian news agencies were telling anyone who would listen that Snowden had an onward ticket BEFORE he landed in Moscow. Look at the chronology of the stories. Reuters reported Interfax claiming Snowden is set to fly on to Cuba while Snowden's plane was in the air three and a half hours before he landed in Moscow. Both Interfax and Itar-Tass were claiming that Snowden was booked on a Monday (June 24) flight from Moscow to Havana more than three hours prior to landing. You can see here an Interfax report claiming that he would be residing in the transit zone and with a time stamp of 15:15 Moscow time, still almost two hours before Snowden landed. Interfax at one point claimed that Snowden would spend the night at the Venezuelan embassy in Moscow, but that story no longer appears on Interfax's website, presumably because that wouldn't fit the "stranded" narrative.--Brian Dell (talk) 16:18, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

You can see here examples of how the Russian media is not to be trusted.--Brian Dell (talk) 01:31, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Putin photo

Just curious why the Putin photo was removed. The change log says, "rmvd Putin img as encyclopedic," but I would think that if it's "encyclopedic" that would be a reason to retain it, not remove it. Kendall-K1 (talk) 05:32, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

I have removed it again (and I apologize that my edit summary got lost...). I really have no idea why anyone would think that a Putin photo is appropriate for this article. Gandydancer (talk) 17:31, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

I have restored it again. A Putin photo is as appropriate for this article as are photos of Anne Arundel Community College; Geneva, Switzerland; Protesters at a one-off rally in Hong Kong; Lawyers and judges protesting in Germany; and a Metro bus ad in DC. Unlike Arundel College, Geneva, Hong Kong protesters, German protestors, and a Metro bus, President Putin is a central character in the Snowden saga and deserves a place of prominence, including his (very handsome) photograph. JohnValeron (talk) 18:31, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. I've been trying to find photos to brighten up this otherwise drab article. I wouldn't have any problem with someone removing the community college photo, which is really just fluff. But Putin is central to the story. Kendall-K1 (talk) 23:18, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

My edit summary was a typo, I meant to write UNencyclopedic, because it adds no information as Putin is recognizable as Obama (and we don't have or need a picture of POTUS either). petrarchan47tc 21:18, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I was just informed that there is support on talk for the addition of the Putin photo - i don't see it. I am removing it again as it just doesn't make sense. Based on these arguments, you could also say that the head of the NSA and Obama should have their photos added here. petrarchan47tc 23:19, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

petrarchan47, both Kendall-K1 and I support including the Putin photo. You and Gandydancer oppose. I'm no math whiz, but that pretty much seems like a draw, which certainly doesn't justify your customary edit warring over this. The photo should stand until there is a genuine consensus to remove it. Meanwhile, please let me point out that the article includes photos of three separate individuals: Snowden (mentioned 361 times), Greenwald (24 times) and Poitras (17 times). Putin is mentioned 16 times—only once less than Poitras, showing just how central he is to this saga. Obama is mentioned 20 times, so you'd be entirely justified in adding his photo. However, since NSA Director Keith Alexander is mentioned only 3 times, including his photo would be unwarranted. JohnValeron (talk) 23:44, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

John, arguments are not counted, they are judged by their validity. If you have 11 idiotic statements, they will not trump the one or two sane voices in the community (not referring to the editors here). Explain to me why you would insist on including a photo of one of the most recognizable, well-known humans on earth, who is merely peripherally related to the subject, no more so than Obama? Shall we add a giant image of the POTUS and just plaster the page with silliness? petrarchan47tc 00:53, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

petrarchan47, I thought we were talking about consensus, which most certainly is a matter of enumeration. And in any case, you are not entitled to be sole and final judge of my arguments' validity, nor are you entitled to attack others' opinions as "idiotic" and posit yourself among "the one or two sane voices in the community." Contrary to your repeated protestations, the photo of President Putin is not gigantic. It is dignified and proportionately sized. As for his being recognizable, please cite the Misplaced Pages policy that prohibits inclusion of a photo of someone simply because he is famous. JohnValeron (talk) 01:36, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm at a complete loss trying to understand the objection to Putin's photo. If we had too many photos (which we don't) I would support removing some, but I'd start with Poitras, whose role is similar to Greenwald's. I have no objection to adding Obama's photo although he seems (to me) less relevant than Putin. Kendall-K1 (talk) 16:53, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

As we have seen over the past two days—and as evidenced by the most recent edits to the article—Putin's role in the Snowden saga is becoming more not less central with each passing day. The Russian president is a far more important character in this play than is Laura Poitras. To exclude his photo merely because he's more recognizable than Greenwald or Poitras is unsupportable. JohnValeron (talk) 17:39, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Allegedly stranded

I can't go along with "allegedly stranded." The sources say "stranded." I won't rehash the arguments here, but "allegedly stranded" was debunked above, in the "Question to the community" section of the talk page. If "stranded" is unacceptable, I could reluctantly go along with removing it, but "allegedly stranded" is no good. Kendall-K1 (talk) 20:27, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, it is really bothering me that we are allowing this edit war to lead us so very far from the simple facts as repeatedly covered in RS. I was especially embarrassed for Misplaced Pages when I heard Glenn Greenwald succinctly tell the story we've been struggling with here for the past 4-5 months. Because this POV pushing has not been properly confronted, and has indeed been coddled by SPAs, our coverage seem to veer far from the truth - most unfortunate for an encyclopedia:

AMY GOODMAN: What has been your latest communication with Edward Snowden? What is he—what are his concerns now and where he stands in Russia?

GLENN GREENWALD: Well, I mean, you know, I don’t think it’s any secret that I talk to him regularly. And, you know, I feel like a lot of what we do has an impact on him, because things—just choices that we make can have an influence on how he’s perceived or even what his legal situation is. So, you know, we certainly talked about our plans to come back, and he was very supportive of that.

And, you know, I think that his situation in Russia is what it’s basically been for the last eight months, which is that he’s in a country that he didn’t choose to be in, that he was forced to remain in by the United States revoking his passport and then threatening other countries not to allow him safe transit. But at the same time, that alternative, as imperfect as it might be, is certainly preferable to the alternative of not being in Russia, which is being put into a supermax prison in the United States for the next 30 years, if not the rest of his life. And so, given how likely of an outcome that was, and he knew that was when he made his choice, I think he’s very happy with his current situation. petrarchan47tc 21:26, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Greenwald won the the Pulitzer Prize today together with Washington Post reporter Barton Gellman. Does that make either of them infallible? On another occasion Greenwald insisted "That story about the Russian consulate was fabricated; it never happened." Yet just days later Putin admitted on TV that "Mr. Snowden first appeared in Hong Kong and met with our diplomatic representatives" proving that what was "fabricated" was Greenwald's (and Anatoly Kucherena's) claim about the Kommersant story, not the Kommersant story reporting Snowden's presence at the Russian consulate. As for Gellman, Gellman says Snowden "was literally changing planes in the Moscow airport when the United States revoked his passport. He was stuck there by that." Should what Gellman claims here be reported as fact? No, if the claim is demonstrably false, which in this case it is. The U.S. revoked his passport BEFORE he left Hong Kong and NOT while "literally changing planes" in Moscow. Sources like the LA Times unequivocally say "before" and other sources are quite clear that the passport was revoked on Saturday June 22 while Snowden did not leave Hong Kong until June 23. Legal experts say the absence of a valid passport can be overlooked if an airline and a jurisdiction decide to do so. The Washington Post is quite clear that Hong Kong/China did this with respect to Snowden. Even if Snowden left Hong Kong because he held an asylum document issued by Ecuador as opposed to just being let go for political reasons, that document was still valid June 24 such that he could have used it to continue onwards (if there was ever an intention to, subsequent remarks by Assange suggest that the Ecuador doc was never intended to get him to Ecuador). It's also not true that we was stranded at the airport according to legal experts, who say there is no legal distinction between an airport and the rest of a country. Finally, no independent investigator saw Snowden in the airport, never mind stranded there for weeks. The primary source for the claim, Kucherena, has been thoroughly discredited. If you want to claim "stranded", then say according to Russian sources.--Brian Dell (talk) 22:08, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Kucherena isn't the source for "stranded." Kucherena isn't a source; see WP:RS. See the section "Russia, Kucherena, and stranded AGAIN" for a list of the sources. Your LA Times source doesn't use the word "stranded" but it doesn't say he wasn't stranded, and strongly suggests that he was, for example with the opening line, "Does anyone -- besides the United States -- want Edward Snowden?" Kendall-K1 (talk) 02:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, he is the source, although he is not acting entirely alone and Russian sources or Russian officials would be the broadest attribution: "He is currently holed up in the transit area of Moscow's Sheremetyevo Airport while his request for asylum is under review by Russian immigration authorities, according to Snowden's lawyer." "... a Moscow airport, where he has been holed up for over a month, Snowden’s Russian lawyer said." "Advocate Anatoly Kucherena of Russia’s Civic Chamber... quoted Snowden as saying that he is not planning to go anywhere outside of Russia. ... The lawyer added Mr Snowden is still staying at an airside hotel in Moscow’s Sheremetyevo airport." It is completely arbitrary to cite a source that happens to not have the attribution to Kucherena (or other Russian source). This issue keeps coming back to the same Misplaced Pages policy violation, which is picking out one's sources and calling them representative of the sources when they are not. Claiming "stranded" without attribution is NOT representative of the sources. See WP:NPOV.--Brian Dell (talk) 15:56, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

WP:NPOV would apply if there were a dispute among the sources as to whether Snowden had been stranded at the airport. Since there is no such dispute, it doesn't apply here. We don't need to attribute or qualify "stranded" because we have sources that don't attribute or qualify it. Kendall-K1 (talk) 10:47, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

That's simply not true, unless you cherry pick your sources. What stranded him? His passport getting revoked? Then why didn't that "strand" him in Hong Kong? The claim that his passport was valid when he left Hong Kong has been confirmed to be false. What's non-neutral is denying all the doubt. From the New York Times just today: "And so began another day of bluster and hyperbole, of the misinformation, exaggerations, conspiracy theories, overheated rhetoric and, occasionally, outright lies about the political crisis in Ukraine that have emanated from the highest echelons of the Kremlin and reverberated on state-controlled Russian television, hour after hour, day after day, week after week. It is an extraordinary propaganda campaign that political analysts say reflects a new brazenness on the part of Russian officials. And in recent days, it has largely succeeded..." Substitute the topic of Snowden for Ukraine and suddenly they transform into reliable sources? Please. The Snowden being stranded story does not add up, no matter how much you try to ignore the problems with it.--Brian Dell (talk) 18:31, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Uh... isn't the NYT controlled by the Kremlin (according to Brian Dell)?TMCk (talk) 19:22, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Let's consider how Bloomberg News deals with this: "He was granted one year of asylum in Russia in August, after arriving in June from Hong Kong. ... Putin ... blamed Snowden’s continued presence in the country on the U.S. revoking his passport." The question here is why Misplaced Pages deviates from this sort of reporting to remove the attribution to a figure like Mr Putin.--Brian Dell (talk) 22:16, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

New news (Putin & Snowden)

Headine-1: Snowden asks Putin LIVE: Does Russia intercept millions of citizens’ data?

• http://rt.com/news/snowden-putin-spy-online-140/

QUOTE: “Russia has “no mass surveillance in our country,” according to President Vladimir Putin, after he was asked a surprise question by whistleblower Edward Snowden at his Q&A session, adding “our surveillance activities are strictly controlled by the law.”” — — Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 14:29, 17 April 2014 (UTC) — PS: FYI for future editing.

Headine-2: Spy vs. spy: Snowden presses Putin on surveillance

• http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/04/17/snowden-putin-question-surveillence/7815957/

QUOTE: “National Security Agency leaker and fugitive Edward Snowden asked Russian President Vladimir Putin on live television if Russia spies on its citizens.” — Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 17:02, 17 April 2014 (UTC) — PS: FYI also for future editing.

Thanks for tip. I have accordingly created a new subsection in Article called "Snowden appears with Putin on live TV." JohnValeron (talk) 19:52, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Where is Snowden's hometown?

This Wikipeida article has cited an NBC News report saying "he grew up in Wilmington, N.C., but later moved to Ellicott City, Md., he told The Guardian." However, The Guardian does not mention Wilmington. Moreover, the Wilmington StarNews reports he lived in Wilmington for only two years, being registered to vote from 2009–2011, but "none of the neighbors recalled ever seeing Edward Snowden at the house" owned by his mother. As for NBC's claim that "he grew up in Wilmington," that is contradicted by The Baltimore Sun, which reports that "when he was about 9 or 10, the family moved to Maryland," where Snowden attended Crofton Woods Elementary School, Crofton Middle School, Arundel High School, and Anne Arundel Community College until age 22. There is similarly scant evidence to claim Ellicott City as Snowden's hometown. USA Today reported last June that Snowden hadn't lived in the condo his mother owned there for more than a decade—meaning circa 2004—and all told lived there for only two or three years. Until we can sort this out, I shall remove the references to Wilmington as Snowden's hometown and as the place where he grew up.

Thanks. I made the same argument early on when this article was first created, but was overruled. Kendall-K1 (talk) 00:50, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Removal of direct quote for specious reasons

Either there is a lack of basic understanding of the WP guidelines, or an editor is trying to push a POV. The motivation behind this edit, if good faith, is lost on me. petrarchan47tc 19:03, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

The party pushing a POV is the party insisting on including tendentious, unverified claims one wouldn't find in a more neutral encyclopedia like Britannica.--Brian Dell (talk) 19:54, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

petrarchan47, much is lost on you. Please note that in the edit immediately preceding mine, HaeB copied and pasted the phrase "meant for me there was no going back" into the paragraph's first sentence, while leaving it intact in the fourth sentence. Judging this proximal redundancy to be unnecessary, and since Snowden had already made his point about Clapper's "lie," I deleted two sentences: "There's no saving an intelligence community that believes it can lie to the public and the legislators who need to be able to trust it and regulate its actions. Seeing that really meant for me there was no going back." For this transgression you have called me a "sneaky dude" and accused me of removing text "for specious reasons." I suggest a few deep breaths are in order, dear. JohnValeron (talk) 20:03, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Agreed we only need to say "no going back" once. I'm not crazy about "three months after" because it smells a bit of WP:SYNTH. Kendall-K1 (talk) 02:13, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Kendall-K1, I welcome your perspective. The article recounts Snowden's initial outreach to Greenwald in the second sentence of subsection 2.1 Release of NSA documents. DNI Clapper is not mentioned until the next-to-last paragraph in subsection 2.4 Motivations—some 2,729 words later. At that point in a complex narrative brimming with dates and details, does it not serve the reader to contextualize Snowden's "breaking point" by recalling that Clapper's "lie" came three months after Snowden first sought to share thousands of NSA documents with Greenwald? WP:SYNTH instructs us, "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." I do not believe that the relative juxtaposition of "breaking point" and "three months after" implies a conclusion. It is factual information, properly sourced to The New York Times, provided for the reader's awareness. It should not be suppressed. JohnValeron (talk) 16:33, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

I guess you're right. I have changed it to "two months before the initial articles based on the leaked documents were published," as the initial publication is more of a milestone. Kendall-K1 (talk) 23:28, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

I disagree that in this context the initial publication is more of a milestone. If you insist on including that—and incidentally it was closer to three months, not two—then we ought to have both. Accordingly, I've restored "three months after" while leaving your "two months before" intact. JohnValeron (talk) 23:45, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

More of a milestone in the sense that the initial publication is when Snowden was most in the news, so it makes a better reference point in the mind of the reader. No one was even aware of his contact with Greenwald at the time. Kendall-K1 (talk) 00:49, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Awards and Prizes

Can we just consolidate all these in one section and cut them back a bit? When there was just one or two it made sense to have a section and quote for each one, but now it just seems like too much. Kendall-K1 (talk) 21:52, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

When you say "cut them back a bit," do you mean reduce the number of words describing each honor, or removing some awards & prizes altogether? I'd agree that the longest subsections—Rector of the University of Glasgow & Alternative Christmas Message—would be better without the quotations from Chairman Snowden. But I'd balk at selectively eliminating entire subsections, since they all seem equally unmeritorious. JohnValeron (talk) 00:51, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

I would start by cutting each award (all of them, not selectively) back to one or two sentences and putting them all in the "Recognition" section. I gather you wouldn't be opposed if I did that? Kendall-K1 (talk) 01:40, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't matter whether John Valerion finds these meritorious awards. If you want to cut these sections back due to the length of this article, please move the present section to one of the spinoff articles to preserve the information, which has been considered perfectly acceptable on WP until just now, so I don't expect it violates any guidelines. petrarchan47tc 01:47, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

That's a sensible solution. Move the entire subsection 6.2 Recognition to a new subsection 3.2 in Commentary on Edward Snowden's disclosure, leaving a one-paragraph summary of the various awards as 6.2 Recognition in the main article. That's essentially what we did with subsection 6.1.2.3 Public opinion polls, which became subsection 3.1 Public opinion polls in Commentary on Edward Snowden's disclosure. JohnValeron (talk) 02:18, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Update: to illustrate, I have copied the entire subsection 6.2 Recognition to a new subsection 3.2 in Commentary on Edward Snowden's disclosure and reformatted as a bulleted list to match the immediately preceding subsection 3.1 Public opinion polls, leaving the existing subsection 6.2 Recognition in the main article undisturbed. JohnValeron (talk) 17:15, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Update 2: to further illustrate, I have distilled the main article's section 6.2 Recognition to one-sentence descriptions of each award, per foregoing discussion, in conjunction with moving full list to Commentary on Edward Snowden's disclosure. JohnValeron (talk) 02:06, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

What was the reason for cutting two images and so much text? The current version is horrible. Why is the goal to squish all that information about his accolades into 2 paragraphs, again??? petrarchan47tc 02:35, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I like the current version. What's wrong with it? Compare, for example, the Awards section of Bill Clinton. The article is too long, and the material isn't gone, just moved. We had two photos of Snowden at Sam Adams (one is actually a video), and I see you restored one of them. I don't think we need both. I would support including the TED photo, just because (as you know) I think we need more photos, but I don't feel strongly about this. Kendall-K1 (talk) 02:42, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I've reverted to the way it was before. The thing is, these are accolades, so to remove them from this article is very POV - unless an attempt is made to reduce *every* section. What if I only moved criticism of Snowden to another page, and reduced it all to 2 paragraphs here? See what I mean? This section is not, and never was, a source of controversy. If the page is too long, this is the first I've heard of it. Why not just let things be peaceful here for awhile? If there are sections which need to be trimmed, let's talk about that. If the article is too long, show the guideline to support that and we can begin to discuss what should be trimmed, then do it in a decent way, not a hack job with 20 commas per sentence. petrarchan47tc 02:51, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

• There seemed to be a great deal of reliably sourced content removed, although I don't prefer any of the two versions. -A1candidate (talk) 02:56, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Does that include my recent cuts? I scaled back some of the excessive quotations, but don't feel as if anything novel was removed (what was removed was said elsewhere already, in other ways). See what you think of the current version. petrarchan47tc 03:51, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

No, those quotations are not necessary and we should provide such background information in prose form. As for the sub-headings, it may be better for us to highlight the notable ones (e.g. Time magazine) and merge the non-notable ones (e.g. Business Insider). -A1candidate (talk) 04:06, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I've highlighted Time, but not sure what you mean by 'merge' non-notables - what would that look like? petrarchan47tc 10:24, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I thought we had talked about it. This article is way too long, and the Awards seem like a good place to start cutting. Again, please take a look at Bill Clinton, or any recent US President or other public figure. Even Mother Teresa has a shorter Awards section. Kendall-K1 (talk) 03:01, 24 April 2014 (UTC)2

If something needs to be trimmed, that would be first and foremost the unnecessary travel details in the lede. We could then merge the sub-headings for the other parts of the article. -A1candidate (talk) 03:18, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

The weird travel details are the result of editors not allowing us to quote RS, which states it very succinctly and simply. I have repeated myself too many times here, I'm sure everyone is aware of what RS says. I intend to start an RfC to clear this up once and for all. I would be happy to add to the Lede the short, well-cited version of his travels. It is one sentence or so. However I have no reason to believe doing so won't start an edit war again. The reason I favor an RfC is that this article is way out of alignment now with what reliable sources say (again, the result of an edit war). Thoughts? petrarchan47tc 03:26, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

After so many months of talk page discussions, an RfC would be a good way to settle it for once -A1candidate (talk) 03:45, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

A1candidate, by "unnecessary travel details in the lede," I presume you mean the 2nd paragraph—145 words in its entirety. Obviously that would not significantly reduce the size of this article, which presently runs to 15,729 words. Also, please explain what you mean by "We could then merge the sub-headings for the other parts of the article." I don't understand. Which subheadings do you have in mind? JohnValeron (talk) 04:12, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

We can't just chop off words without paying attention to the structure of the article. Some of the sub-headings under Russia, Temporary asylum in Russia, United States and Recognition do not seem to be necesary.-A1candidate (talk)

A1candidate, how would eliminating the sub-headings under Russia, Temporary asylum in Russia, United States and Recognition reduce the size of this 15,729-word article? Or are you talking about deleting those subsections altogether? JohnValeron (talk) 04:41, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

As I've already mentioned in my previous posts, a merge is better than a complete removal -A1candidate (talk) 04:50, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

A1candidate, I'm sorry I missed your previous posts, but perhaps the confusion here is your use of the word "sub-heading." To me, a subheading is just that—a heading, the title that goes above a section of text. The subheading is not the text itself. So when you talk about eliminating subheadings, I naturally don't see how that could appreciably reduce the size of this article. However, if you mean the text of the subsection that follows under a subheading, then obviously that could have the desired effect. I hope you will clear up this misunderstanding. And, please, can't you be specific? Are you talking about rewriting this entire article? I wish you would precisely identify what portions of the text you consider expendable. JohnValeron (talk) 05:05, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

John, the reason we moved the Public Opinion Polls to a spin off article last summer was to trim this one. Why did you dig it out and bring it back here, only to then complain that this article is too long? petrarchan47tc 10:08, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I've moved it back. petrarchan47tc 10:13, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Petrarchan47tc, in your zeal to revert my every edit, you have blinded yourself to reality. Your preceding account is false. Here is what actually happened.

5 April 2014

• 03:40 – I added subsection 6.1.2.3 "Public Opinion Surveys" to main article.
• 05:37 – Petrarchan47tc added section "Public opinion polls needs to be condensed" to this Talk page, and wrote: "Public opinion polls are a great inclusion, but needs to be condensed and written in a couple paragraphs, using the other sections in the article as an example. How much weight/space should public opinion polls take? My opinion is, no more than 2 paragraphs."
• 07:11 – Petrarchan47 removed subsection 6.1.2.3 "Public Opinion Surveys" from the main article, and wrote in the edit summary: "Sorry, please don't replce this information until it's bite-sized. Public opinion polls don't warrant this much space and the list format looks ridiculous."
• 07:21 – Petrarchan47 pasted subsection 6.1.2.3 "Public Opinion Surveys" into Commentary on Edward Snowden's disclosure and wrote in the edit summary: "Moved from the already long Snowden article."
• 21:07 – I added to the main article a completely revised subsection 6.1.2.3 "Public Opinion Surveys" in summary form, reduced to four paragraphs.

6 April 2014

• 22:18 – Petrarchan47 commenced a series of edits ADDING to, not replacing, the new subsection 6.1.2.3 "Public Opinion Surveys."

24 April 2014

• 03:13 – After 17 days in which subsection 6.1.2.3 remained unchanged, Petrarchan47 updated it by adding an April 2014 UK YouGov poll.
• 10:10 – Petrarchan47 peremptorily moved the entire subsection 6.1.2.3 to Commentary on Edward Snowden's disclosure, REPLACING the full list of reliably sourced Public Opinion Polls that had been in place therein without dispute for 19 days—ever since Petrarchan47 had originally inserted it on 5 April.

For the record, I never complained that this article is too long. Other editors did, including Petrarchan47tc, who as shown above referred on 5 April to "the already long Snowden article." Most recently, at the Talk page on 22 April, Kendall-K1 suggested that we ought to reduce the size of subsection 6.2 "Recognition," not the entire article. During the ensuing discussion, Petrarchan47tc wrote on 23 April, "If you want to cut these sections back due to the length of this article, please move the present section to one of the spinoff articles to preserve the information…." Acting accordingly, I first copied the subsection 6.2 "Recognition" to a new subsection 3.2 in Commentary on Edward Snowden's disclosure and reformatted as a bulleted list to match the immediately preceding subsection 3.1 'Public Opinion Polls." I next distilled the main article's section 6.2 "Recognition" to short descriptions of each award in summary form, reducing the subsection's size to two paragraphs. Since these edits were done expressly for purposes of illustration, I did not protest when Petrarchan47, as usual, reverted them. But I do object to this latest misrepresentation, and to the corresponding edits by Petrarchan47. JohnValeron (talk) 16:55, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

If you're not arguing that the article needs to be shorter, then I have misunderstood Kendal. If he is the only one calling for cuts, that's a relief, because I don't see the need. I never liked the idea of taking something that was already sent to a spin-off article and adding it back here, and please don't take my lack of fighting the move as a positive response. I'm just tired of fighting at this page and have sought peace over all else for the last few months. I do wish you hadn't added that section because it does make the article more susceptible to complaints about size, and random POV cuts like we saw yesterday. But whatever. petrarchan47tc 18:55, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Petrarchan47, the notion that you are a peacemaker at the Edward Snowden article or its Talk page is preposterous. You are resolutely proprietary and consistently combative. JohnValeron (talk) 19:28, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the attack, but I did not call myself a "peacemaker" - I am explaining why I didn't put up a big fight over the addition of the Public Polls section. I did not put up a fight about the stupid Putin photo, nor have I attempted to remove the Polls again. I don't think "consistently combative" can be proven. These types of statements have no place in this thread. petrarchan47tc 01:00, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

How about cutting back on the material sourced to RT, for a start? "Margarita Simonyan, the editor-in-chief of Russia's English-language television network, Russia Today, posted a tweet in the wee hours of Thursday morning in which she appeared to declare Ukraine dead. The tweet, which was written in both Russian and English translates to "R.I.P. Ukraine".... The network's coverage of Russia's military action in Ukraine has earned widespread criticism, including internally. In March, RT anchor and correspondent Liz Wahl resigned during a live broadcast after claiming the network "whitewashes the actions of Putin."--Brian Dell (talk) 20:18, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

This makes no sense whatsoever. If we are writing about the Ukraine, then RT might be a questionable source. petrarchan47tc 01:00, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

So if a source is notorious for making dubious claims and spreading propaganda, it's reliable if it changes the topic? There's a common thread in these two topics, namely, "whitewashes the actions of" the Kremlin.--Brian Dell (talk) 02:54, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

The reliability of a source depends on context. Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made and is an appropriate source for that content. Kendall-K1 (talk) 04:15, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and the context here is that Kremlin-affiliated sources have ample motivation and means to spin the Snowden story hard. Which is fine to a point, if readers know which material in this article is originating with such sources. It's the hiding of the origins of the material that I most object to. That, and the constant efforts to suppress contrary views like that of Cedric Leighton in this article.--Brian Dell (talk) 05:56, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Brian Dell, taking your cue, I have added Col. Leighton's reliably sourced remarks to subsection 6.4.1 Tech. When our Hong Kong editor wakes up, we shall no doubt see the immediate suppression of these contrary views. JohnValeron (talk) 17:01, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Who are you referring to as "our Hong Kong editor"? petrarchan47tc 05:02, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Clarification sought: What is Reaction & what is Debate?

I am confused by the respective contents of section 6 Reaction and subsection 6.1 Debate. The section titled Reaction mentions "debate" half a dozen times. Why are those not demoted to the appropriate subsection under 6.1 Debate?

Similarly, parts of subsection 6.1.2 United States deal with Reaction, not Debate. For example:

• An analysis released by the New America Foundation in January 2014 reviewed 225 terrorism cases since the September 11 attacks found that the NSA's bulk collection of phone records "has had no discernible impact on preventing acts of terrorism," and that U.S. government claims of the program's usefulness were "overblown." Officials maintained that the program was a good "insurance policy."

Why is that paragraph not promoted to section 6 Reaction? Any guidance on this point will be appreciated. JohnValeron (talk) 00:23, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

"Debate" is a reaction - so that whole section should be a subsection of "Reaction", and all 'debate material' can be nestled under the appropriate heading. petrarchan47tc 01:31, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Truthfully, John, I've just had three edit conflicts and lost all my work because of your commitment to follow all my edits, checking them and 'fixing' them in seconds. Please chill out a bit. petrarchan47tc 01:34, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Truthfully,Petrarchan47, as an editor you are a butcher. If you'd do a half-decent job I wouldn't have to correct so much. You couldn't even cite the right source, saying it was Wall Street Journal instead of Washington Post. You misspelled Ellsberg and Jesselyn. You put words within quotation marks that are not direct quotes. You attributed something to Greenwald that was actually said by Snowden. And all this within the space of four sentences! In my experience at Misplaced Pages, your ineptitude is singular. JohnValeron (talk) 02:27, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to ignore the tone and rough comments. The truth is, every single thing was cited properly, and the source was the Post at the end of the paragraph. After creating the section, I read that the story was first broken by the Journal. So I changed that at the beginning to let readers know who broke the story, yet I left the rest of the context and the source for it at the end. It is true, I attributed the statement to Greenwald when Politico had not, although Greenwald has made the same statement countless times, and that fact is cited in our article already. I fixed all the perceived errors by simply changing the beginning sentence, pointing to the correct source for the text to follow, but unfortunately removing the information (cited in the ref) about which publication actually broke the story. This is not something that deserves your harsh comments, and it would be easier if you communicated on talk about the problems you're seeing rather than causing a ton of edit conflicts.

It was never OK that you threatened me with "I will from now on follow you around and check all of your edits", as you did on this talk page. That is "wiki-hounding", as evidenced by today. Misspellings are something you can be kind about, no one deserves to have their ass handed to them for misspelling a name.Certain edit habits and your attitude towards me are becoming problematic. petrarchan47tc 02:42, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

petrarchan47, you are a liar. I never threatened you on this Talk page or anywhere else. I never wrote, "I will from now on follow you around and check all of your edits." What I did write on this page at 22:02, 8 April 2014 was:

• petrarchan47, in your edit summary at 19:25, 8 April 2014, you contend: "RS does not doubt the story we tell in Lede." Yet my edit cited an AP article that does indeed cast doubt on your partisan account. Moreover, for you to proclaim that the Associated Press is not a reliable source is preposterous—on a par with your earlier Talk absurdity: "We go with RS EVEN if/when they have it wrong…" As far as I am concerned, you have zero credibility as a Misplaced Pages editor, and I shall henceforth independently confirm and where appropriate challenge whatever you contribute to this article.

Note that I specified this article only and said nothing about following you around and checking all of your edits. The fact that I later happened to edit the Laura Poitras page was a natural outgrowth of my interest in Snowden, and was—despite your paranoia—in no way prompted by your own interest in that page, of which I was honestly unaware when I first visited Poitras. JohnValeron (talk) 03:04, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

I had just been editing Poitras, so you can see how one would guess that you had looked at my contribs. It doesn't, contrary to your edit summary, mean that I am paranoid. Note that you complained about a point at Poitras that could, and if your story is correct, should have led you to make similar edits at Greenwald and Gellman. But you did not (until I pointed this out). Why?

I did interpret "As far as I am concerned, you have zero credibility as a Misplaced Pages editor, and I shall henceforth independently confirm and where appropriate challenge whatever you contribute to this article" as a promise to be Wiki-hounding, and am seeing evidence that you are engaging in it, because these edits are accompanied by a sudden, hostile attitude from you. What you complain about regarding my edits today aren't things that usually earn one the label of a "butcher".

Further, you omit the explanation I gave about my comment: "we go to RS even when they have it wrong". I said that I am also disturbed by this, but that it is a reality given WP:RS - and I pointed you to an article about an author who could not correct the summary of his own book, since there was RS supporting the incorrect version but he was not supported by RS. The fact that you omit the context of my statement is disturbing. Also, starting out calling me a liar seems like disruptive behaviour. I'm not sure why you are so incredibly emotional about any of this, but it's getting in the way of editing, in my opinion, and not very constructive. petrarchan47tc 03:40, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

In this series of edits, JohnValeron, you have now placed in Misplaced Pages's voice words directly copied from the source material. Please fix this. petrarchan47tc 05:10, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

As you requested, I provided additional in-text attribution to The Washington Post. JohnValeron (talk) 05:36, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

The request to avoid plagiarism does not stem from me - it's a basic rule here. To make all this fuss about how you need to follow me and "fix" my horrible edits, then to make the article far worse off by removing quotation marks, but leaving text intact, seems erratic and confusing at the very least. Coupled with the claim that my "ineptitude is singular" and that I am a "butcher" as an editor, you're going to have to do more than respond to my "request" that you not commit copyright violations.

The fact that you are purposely looking for me to make any mistake is how you misunderstood my edits yesterday, and what led to your freak out. In this edit, I corrected the original source of the story, leaving the Politico ref for support. But the paragraph was sourced and written correctly, save for the few technical errors, and although I correctly added the fact that the Journal released the story (per Politico), I did not change the source used to support the paragraph - which was the Post. You read the paragraph, and assumed I was quoting from the Journal, but failed to notice I never linked to the Journal. If you had checked the two sources I had used, you would see that everything was correctly sourced and you would not have made such a big scene. Your overreaction is disruptive, as is the name-calling.

Please also respond to the questions I've posed above, as well as letting us know who you are claiming to be "our Hong Kong editor" in the section before this one, and how you would know where said editor is located. It is disappointing that you've chosen to respond to only on one of my comments JohnValeron. It seems rude to create such drama and walk away when asked to explain. petrarchan47tc 00:17, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

The paragraph in question begins, "In April 2014, The Washington Post reported that some federal judges holding low-level positions had been balking at sweeping requests…." It consists of 170 words, and each of its five sentences contains an in-text attribution to the Post. At the end of the paragraph there is an inline citation to the Post. There is no copyright violation. Verbatim text incorporated from the Post is covered by the Fair Use exception under U.S. law for news reporting. JohnValeron (talk) 01:29, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I have specifically asked you to respond to the rest. They are important points. You are blatantly ignoring my pointed questions, discrediting yourself in the process.

• Why was the Pulitzer attributed to Poitras problematic whilst Greenald and Gellman pages were left alone (until I pointed out the discrepancy)?
• Why did you quote only half of what I said about RS, making my statement reflect the opposite of what I actually said?
• Who is "our Hong Kong editor", how do you know, and why are you talking about an editor's location?

As for my editing, an important point to remember is that I originally requested that you allow me to have a bit of space, and not jump on my edits within seconds (giving me no chance to fix any mistakes). Three times I made somewhat extensive changes/fixes and ended up with an edit conflict, as you were frantically scraping through my freshly made edits. Give me a good 15 minutes before jumping all over me next time. There is a good chance I will find and fix the edits myself, JohnValeron. petrarchan47tc 01:49, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

In my comment here at 03:04, 26 April 2014 , I quoted the most pertinent part of your statement ("We go with RS EVEN if/when they have it wrong…"), followed immediately by a link to its full, magnificent, immortal context . Interested readers could readily click through to your every word. JohnValeron (talk) 02:38, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Again, without explanation, you choose to address only one segment of my 3-part question whilst ignoring the rest.

The most important part of any quotation is its context. The context was explained in the part you omitted: "My statement was not a reflection of what I do or prefer, but what the guidelines state. An example showing the absurdity of this rule is here."

Petrarchan47, you did not sign your post but I see from the edit history that it is you. My hesitation in answering your every question is easily explained. I do not respond well to badgering. JohnValeron (talk) 03:37, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Proposal to consolidate subsection 6.4 Recognition

Subsection 6.4 Recognition consists of nine sub-subsections, each numbered and occupying a separate line in the list of Contents following the article's lead.

This arrangement creates an unnecessarily overlong subsection that frankly looks like padding.

For instance, three of the nine sub-subsections consist of a single sentence, respectively, each of which essentially repeats its bolded subheading without adding anything of substance.

6.4.1 Time person of the Year Runner-up

6.4.2 Time 100 Most Influential People

6.4.7 Ridenhour Truth-Telling Prize

Two other paragraphs contain only three sentences apiece.

6.4.8 German "positive" Big Brother Award

6.4.9 New Russian journalism award named for Snowden

Altogether, including subheadings, subsection 6.4 Recognition spreads 1,047 words over a disproportionate amount of real estate.

I propose to rewrite this subsection by removing subheadings and where appropriate distilling the description of each award. Input is invited. JohnValeron (talk) 03:28, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Finish what you started in the section above. Do not obfuscate by starting up another project while ignoring unfinished business, please. petrarchan47tc 03:34, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I liked the way you had it before you got reverted. Kendall-K1 (talk) 03:54, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Edit warring spillover

In case anyone is interested, there is a new noticeboard discussion related to the historical and ongoing edit warring over Edward Snowden. Your comments are invited. JohnValeron (talk) 18:12, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

1. Newport, Frank (June 12, 2013). "Americans Disapprove of Government Surveillance Programs". Gallup.
2. "Public Split over Impact of NSA Leak, But Most Want Snowden Prosecuted". Pew Research Center. June 17, 2013. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)
3. "Poll: Public wants congressional hearings on NSA surveillance". The Washington Post. June 19, 2013.
4. "12% See NSA Leaker Snowden As Hero, 21% As Traitor". Rasmussen Reports. June 19, 2013.
5. "As Snowden Stays In Russia, He Slips In Public Opinion". YouGov. July 3, 2013.
6. Emily Swanson (July 5, 2013). "Edward Snowden Poll Finds More Americans Now Think He Did The Wrong Thing". Huffington Post. Retrieved July 9, 2013.
7. Rebecca Ballhaus (July 24, 2013) WSJ/NBC Poll: Most Americans View Snowden Negatively The Wall Street Journal
8. Salant, Jonathan D. (July 10, 2013). "Snowden Seen as Whistle-Blower by Majority in New Poll". Bloomberg News. Retrieved July 10, 2013.
9. Nelson, Steven (August 1, 2013). "As Edward Snowden receives asylum in Russia, poll shows Americans sympathetic to NSA 'whistle-blower'". US News & World Report.
10. "12% See NSA Leaker Snowden As Hero, 21% As Traitor". Rasmussen Reports. June 19, 2013.
11. "Snowden and the NSA - November 2013". The Washington Post. November 20, 2013.
12. "Obama's NSA Speech Has Little Impact on Skeptical Public". Pew Research Center. January 20, 2014. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)
13. "Poll Results: Snowden". YouGov. January 22, 2014.
14. "Poll: Most think Edward Snowden should stand trial in U.S." CBS News. January 22, 2014.
15. "January 2014 NBC News/Wall Street Journal Survey" (PDF). MSNBC. January 22–25, 2014.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: date format (link)
16. "Poll Results: Snowden". YouGov. March 28, 2014.

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