Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 11:34, 5 May 2014

• WP:ANI
• WP:AN/I

This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.

• Before posting:
  • Read these tips for dealing with incivility
  • If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page
  • Try dispute resolution
  • Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly.
• Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem
• Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight.

When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough.
You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so.

Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)

• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
• Allowing page movers to enable two-factor authentication
• Rewriting the guideline Misplaced Pages:Please do not bite the newcomers
• Should comments made using LLMs or chatbots be discounted or even removed?

Edit-warring, ownership and censorship by editor Director on the article "Jews and Communism"

I realise it is only a few days since Jews and Communism was last the subject of a discussion here but things nave not improved there,quite the contrary. User Director repeatedly reverts anything that does not meet his approval, often leaving edit summaries along the lines of "achieve consensus" or "discuss on talk page" but there is little point in doing that since the only result will be that he will say something along the lines of "I am opposed" so therefore there is no consensus as far as he is concerned and he will put the article back to his version. Here are his reverts of this last week - Lots of arguments going on about whether to call Karl Marx Jewish, Director insists that his version is the only acceptable one and it must include a statement about his being descended from rabbis - he reverts Pharos - - reverts me with an edit summary "I'm sorry, but I don't see it." , reverts user Galassi , reverts Galassi again , reverts Izak , reverts Soman , not exactly a revert but re -inserts material removed by Soman , reverts Galassi , reverts me . The last straw for me, and why I reluctantly come to this massive waste of time board, is that editor Pharos went to a lot of trouble to revise some highly disputed content, listening to what other editors had said, expanded the material and moved it to an appropriate place and Director removed it all, every word. On the talk page he said "I oppose"it, which he obviously believes is a good enough reason why it should not be in the article. Director stated earlier today on the talk page that he believes himself to be facing Americans who have a different understanding of communism than the rest of the world and that he is engaged in a struggle for WP articles to "liberate (themselves) from the shadow of the circus that is American politics." Director has advised editor Galassi to "go away" and to me has suggested that I "take (my) political POV elsewhere". He has his supporters on the article, he is not the only one reverting others, I have done it myself, there are definitely two very entrenched "sides" on this highly contentious article, but Director refuses to move towards any consensus or compromise. There are some editors such as Pharos and Soman who are "in the middle" of the two sides, one might say, and try to accommodate all views, but Director will censor them too. I believe Director should be prohibited from editing this article, his approach is directly opposite to WP ideas of consensus. I ask that at least he should receive a warning.Smeat75 (talk) 17:48, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Having looked at the article's revision history, it looks at though the difficult POV-pusher is Smeat75 (though he/she is not alone).

This seems to be a typical edit by Smeat75 and his/her allies. It seeks to erase Karl Marx's Jewishness! The edit summary is "revise to neutral version"!

After Galassi reinserted it, Iryna Harpy reverted it again, saying "Reverted 1 edit by Galassi (talk): Rv Not only are the refs contentious, but have turned the lead into a non-lead WP:POV travesty. See talk page."

Maybe Smeat75 should be given a topic ban.--Toddy1 (talk) 18:42, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. I see a tendency by a tag-team of Direktor and Producer to insinuate that Communism is a Jewish invention. Both of them refuse to seek consensus, and cherrypick quotes to push a POV, disregarding the errors in citations which would normally disqualify these citations as RS.--Galassi (talk) 18:49, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Galassi disagrees? Well, Galassi, seeing as how you're the resident edit-warring proxy for Smeat75, with virtually no involvement on the talkpage, pardon me if I don't collapse out of shock.

Galassi's involvement on the article cann be summed up entirely as "revert Director whenever you see him editing". -- Director (talk) 18:54, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Reply to Toddy1 above - that was cited to a RS that said Karl Marx was a baptized Lutheran and I am far from the only one saying that on the talk page. I kept saying that sentence about Marx should not be in the lead because it was not discussed in the article, against WP:LEAD. Anyway that doesn't matter as Pharos did a lot of work and expanded the Marx information to a neutral and accurate version which I would certainly not have quarreled with, moved it out of the lead and into the body of the article and Director reverted every word, that is why I am here.Smeat75 (talk) 19:14, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Smeat75, you have conveniently omitted the fact that you'd blanked other RS and overwritten it with as simplistic statement regarding Marx's Lutheran baptism, plus added that he was a 'classic antisemite' based on a single source all compressed into a single sentence. The source for the 'antisemite' allegation was WP:CHERRY based on this Professor of law's credibility having been established within the scope of the area of law, whereas the RS you selected was essentially a personal opinion piece by him which has been widely criticised.

I am in agreement with Toddy1's evaluation. You seem incapable of being able to approach the subject matter in a rational manner, and have demonstrated no interest in even attempting to. You persist in pointing your finger at anyone who doesn't agree with you as being part of a conspiracy of some sort or another, even where there has been no working relationship between contributors prior the recent outbreak of disparate interest groups/POV pushers. I am of the serious opinion that you should be topic banned. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:45, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Smeat75 has no regard whatsoever for discussion or consensus, he just thinks those who revert his content blanking should be banned from annoying him. I mean, if he posts enough sections on ANI demanding his opponents be removed from his presence, someone's bound to sanction them, right? I imagine after this, it'll be the turn of Pluto2012, Iryna Harpy, Producer, and all the rest who are opposed to his (frankly nonsensical) edits. Really though, this is basically Smeat75 "dealing" with his inability to push his edits into the article. Neither discussion nor edit-warring helped, how about another "Ban Director!" section? -- Director (talk) 18:54, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

The reason why I brought this here is because you removed painstaking, highly excellent sourced content added by Pharos, not me.. You already tried, and failed, to get USChick, Galassi, Izak and others removed from editing the article, you will not even allow compromises to be made by editors like Pharos who are "in the middle". Smeat75 (talk) 19:03, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

The edit that was removed was introduced without consensus, amid active opposition on the talkpage. The posting editor didn't seem to read the discussion and/or didn't care that elaborating on that topic is opposed on grounds of being miles outside the scope.

I'm sure Pharos was merely doing what he thought was best for resolving the matter, i.e. "resolve the issue by elaborating on it in enough detail". Unfortunately, elaborating on the issue in detail takes us outside the scope. The best thing to do is to leave it out. -- Director (talk) 19:08, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

• Note for an admin- I got an edit conflict which I tried to fix and think I inadvertently removed a couple of other comments. I don't know how to try to fix that without possibly messing things up more, can someone look into that. ThanksSmeat75 (talk) 19:48, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

(Restore EC removed comment) I do not see a consensus for the changes noted by Smeat75. I suggest an RFC be opened, and Smeat75 consider WP:DEADLINE. JoeSperrazza (talk) 2:56 pm, Today (UTC−4)

Further comment: This edit summary is misleading at best. JoeSperrazza (talk) 20:11, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, I have to state that the irony of Smeat75's ANI title is too much to keep a straight face over. Given the recent ANI-turned-fiasco over this same article where he declared, "Jews and Communism" is a terrible, terrible article, blatant anti-Semitism imo, unfortunately I did not know about it when it was proposed for deletion, not that it would have made any difference I suppose, but admins are not going to do anything about that. As the AfD failed, there is nothing to do but try to improve the article, hopefully this thread will have brought the article to the attention of others as it did me..., his/her purported interest in 'improving' the article smacks of disingenuousness. My involvement in the article has been limited to keeping an eye out for POV pushes, and I believe I've clearly stated my position more than once as to Smeat75's interest as a WP:COI desire to redact the article into oblivion. The nature of changes to the lead alone were pure POV turning the article into a parody of an encyclopaedic entry per my responses on the talk page .

JoeSperrazza, while I can appreciate that you are a neutral editor, I think you may see my concern with envisaging a reasonable, rational RfC if you take a look at the very, very recent ANI, and at the article's corresponding talk page. An RfC can only be viable where those seeking consensus are genuinely interested in developing a good and informative article are the mainstay of such an RfC. Holding an RfC at this point in time will only encourage yet more protracted, convoluted and plain disruptive tracts of WP:IDONTLIKEIT by interest groups antithetical to the existence of the article intent on wearing down good faith contributors. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:33, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Expanding on that. Smeat consistently projects onto other users as claiming nonsense like the "first the Jews killed Christ then they killed Christ's representative on earth, the Tsar" and states that users like Altenmann (talk · contribs) and I promote extremist "memes" and push a "straightforward anti-Semitic slur". He criticizes others for their wording of sourced information yet his only alternative to throw it straight out the window based on him feeling "disturbed". Smeat clearly lacks the ability to refrain from such absurd behavior and continues to try to associate other users with malicious statements or views in an effort to portray them as anti-semites and get his way. He even employs legal rhetoric and claims that he's stopping users from pushing "libel". --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 09:09, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

In this edit Smeat75 changed two posts by DIREKTOR, and deleted one by JoeSperrazza and one by Toddy1. He said at 19:48, 19 April 2014 that this was due to an edit conflict. I do not see how that can be true. DIREKTOR you may wish to restore your posts to what they were before Smeat75 changed them.--Toddy1 (talk) 20:32, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Well it was due to me trying to fix something that had happened due to an edit conflict and if I had been trying to do something malicious I don't think I would come back to the page and leave a note to say I accidentally removed some comments, can someone look into it.Smeat75 (talk) 20:38, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Have you thought of looking at the diff, and changing things back?--Toddy1 (talk) 20:41, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

I did look at it and decided that I did not trust myself not to mess things up even more if I tried to change it back, which is why I left a note asking an admin to look into it.Smeat75 (talk) 20:53, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

I entirely agree with Smeat75. If you look at the article's history page, it's hard not to see the systematic censorship by Director. One example is the section titled "Critical reception and conspiracy theories" discussing analysts of antisemitic conspiracy theories related to the concept of 'Jews and Communism'. Director unjustifiably deleted links and] information from that section, most specifically Template:Antisemitism which he deleted multiple times here, here, and here, claiming the article has to be "part of a series on antisemitism" in order to be included, which every experienced editor (an he's one) knows is wrong, and I have even explained that the article is clearly related to the subject and it's exactly the right place for its use. Yambaram (talk) 12:53, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Director just continues repeatedly reverting others' contributions (not by me, I have had more than I can stand at that article for a while) with edit summaries such as "opposed to this" - reverts sourced material by Soman - by Soman again - and again - reverts Pharos and pays no attention to any discussion on the talk page (not from me there either in the last few days).Smeat75 (talk) 18:58, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Again, reverts another user today with an edit summary "Rv. This recent addition ... is opposed." - translation, Director does not approve of it. "Discuss your edit on talk please." - there would not be any point in doing that, if Director answered at all, he would only say it was not going to be allowed. Why is he permitted to control the content of the article in this way?Smeat75 (talk) 17:33, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Smeat I'm sympathetic to some of your concerns regarding this article. However, this seems to be a content dispute. Also it appears to me that the very existence of this article bothers you. I understand that too, but apparently that has also been dealt with. Coretheapple (talk) 17:49, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree. I don't see any admin action helping the conditions over there, although if the edit warring continues I would consider locking the article so they can either discuss it or do nothing. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 18:29, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I think that, as in a lot of situations, the article simply needs more eyes focused on it. I have to say that I was surprised the article exists, and after reading it I am even more surprised. It is the kind of article that brings Misplaced Pages into disrepute. But I just simply am not seeing a user conduct issue here, as far as I can see. Perhaps I've missed it. No, to me there is a deeper problem, which is that one has an article at all of this kind. I thought the top illustration was especially repugnant. Coretheapple (talk) 18:47, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I've just tagged the article for neutrality, as I feel that is the principal problem with the article. Let's see what happens now. I have never edited this article before, so I don't know what the dynamics are. I do know that there is a clear neutrality issue that has not been very clearly articulated. If there are indeed user conduct issues, perhaps they will now emerge. If not, they won't.Coretheapple (talk) 19:02, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

While I will not plead ignorance to why there are contributors who are overly sensitised to the the subject matter of the topic, Coretheapple, I'm having difficulty in understanding what you are trying to express by stating, "I was surprised the article exists... ... It is the kind of article that brings Misplaced Pages into disrepute." (sic) There is certainly no lack of research to suggest that it doesn't meet WP:GNG. The only arguments against its existence I've found (including attempts to delete it over the years) are based on perception of communism as being evil, plus censorship based on such articles touching on ticklish topics.

Examining different groups, including the identification of high profile names and brilliant minds behind communism as political/economic/philosophical theory, as being people of Jewish descent (who are still the principal thinkers with whom contemporary, active political parties who have never broken their ties) is less spurious than a ponderous number of Misplaced Pages articles. If there is any semblance of 'disrepute' in question, I would suggest that it is English Misplaced Pages's predominant bent towards 'Capitalism → (Representative) Democracy → Not corrupt → Great human rights record → Good vs Communism → Totalitarianism → Corruption → Bad human rights record → Evil' that stands accused of being irrational. Following this line of perception leads to equally badly thought out and emotive reactions as seeing this article as being about 'commies' of Jewish descent → anti-Semitism. What brings Misplaced Pages into disrepute is knee-jerk reaction self-censorship. Working of the assumption that the article in question is, according to preconceived misinformation and misconceptions about political theory, ipso facto anti-Semitic doesn't even aspire to have anything to do with rational thinking. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:50, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by referring to "attempts to delete it over the years." The article was created 27 February 2014, which was two months ago. The rationale for deletion is not that we are sensitive to offending the Jews, but that no reliable sources write about the subject, which is required to meet notablity guidelines. Anti-semites of course write about the subject in fringe literature, that has been mention in reliable sources. and accordingly we have an article Jewish Bolshevism that describes that particular conspiracy theory. Incidentally, anti-semites also connect Jews with capitalism, particularly money-lending and liberalism, so your association does not work. Misplaced Pages did manage to delete "Jews and money." TFD (talk) 05:06, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

@The Four Deuces: I've only just noticed this response you've left for me. Firstly, you'll have to forgive my typo. It should have read as 'over the year'. Secondly, I would suggest that you read my comment with care. Using a leap of faith argument, you seem to have twisted my appraisal of the English speaking Western world's predominantly anti-communist conceptions drummed into us from the moment we comprehend media coverage of politics (and heavily reflected in numerous articles on the subject of politics, economics, interpretations of world events here on Misplaced Pages by which media sources are deemed reliable on the reliable sources list) into a spurious attempt to tar me with the anti-Semite brush. Your 'incidentally' remark is the association with my point that doesn't work. I sincerely hope that isn't what you were implying. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 10:31, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm having difficulty in understanding what you are trying to express by stating, "I was surprised the article exists.." Sure, here's what I'm trying to express: I'm surprised the article exists. It is grossly unbalanced, a real disgrace. Hope this helps. Coretheapple (talk) 01:14, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Today's developments - There is a statement in the lead "The philosopher Karl Marx, regarded as the "father of Communism", was Jewish by ancestry, hailing from prominent and historic rabbinic families on both sides." Exactly a week ago user Pharos expanded the main text with more information on his background and a book he wrote about Jews. Director took it out, you can see the squabble we had about it on the talk page. That is the exact reason I opened this discussion at AN/I. Today Pharos reinstated it with an edit summary " re-add Marx subsection opposed by exactly one person - now with strong reference linking On the Jewish Question to Communism" , DIRECTOR reverted it with an edit summary "Rolled back non-consensus addition" , I put it back with an edit summary "Discuss on talk page!" , he immediately took it out again with an edit summary "I did discuss and do discuss. Until there is consensus for this addition I will revert it without fail.". By "consensus" he means "when he approves", which will be never. As Pharos said in the first edit summary, exactly one person, (Director), opposed it a week ago and the same person vetoes it now. It makes me want to edit war and attack the page, yes, it does, it makes me very angry, I have to try to restrain myself, I just do not know how people can read what is going on over at that article and do nothing about it.Smeat75 (talk) 01:30, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Smeat75 that there are user conduct issues. I said otherwise above but after experiencing the talk page for a couple of days I've changed my mind. But let's be realistic: these user conduct issues are not going to be addressed. The fundamental problem with this article is content. There was an AfD in which a majority of editors favored deletion, which indicates, if nothing else does, that this article has a serious existential issue. Coretheapple (talk) 01:34, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

How can an article have existential issues, Coretheapple?

The outcome of the AfD, as you would well know, is dependent on policy and guideline based arguments, not the number of votes based on objections of an emotive, POV nature. Those who would like to see the article developed in an genuinely encyclopaedic manner are not those who are ensuring that the content is a travesty. Take, for example, Smeat75's recent 'contribution' where, out of the blue, he introduced that Marx was a classic anti-Semite as a neutral(!!!???) version for the lead. If you understand it to be "... grossly unbalanced, a real disgrace." in its current form, I suggest that you go over the history with care and acquaint yourself with which contributors are responsible for it turning into a 'disgrace' before jumping in and tarnishing the reputation of contributors who were not responsible for the aberration that's emerged. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:50, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Oh please. Even a casual reader can see that this article has massive POV issues. Smeat75 is a bit overemotional but he is working very hard to fix its enormous and I think self-evident problems. You seem to view the problems as assets and the efforts to correct them as problems.Coretheapple (talk) 12:00, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Reply to Iryna Harpy - That was an exact quote from Alan Dershowitz, an expert on anti-Semitism. I wouldn't say it was "out of the blue". I should not have put "neutral" in the edit summary, I admit. It was during an edit war that has started up again over that sentence on Marx that Director bans being expanded upon. Coretheapple restored the information added by Pharos since my last post here, Director took it out, I just put it back, no doubt he will remove it again. That change you are referring to from me lasted about two minutes and almost nothing I have put in or taken out of that article has been allowed to remain so you cannot blame me for turning the article into a "disgrace".Smeat75 (talk) 12:08, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

The talk page is almost as much of a shambles as the article. A perfect example is that Smeat75 was just accused of canvassing in this very discussion! Perhaps someone can examine this discussion and find evidence of canvassing here by that editor or anyone. Clearly the article requires outside attention and lots of it, no matter how that might discomfit the editors that have been dominating discussions there and enforcing their will on the text. Coretheapple (talk) 13:42, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I would like to ask an admin about that. Was opening this AN/I really canvassing? Would informing WP Projects about the article be canvassing? Also I have just been accused of making personal attacks - . There are two editors with very similar user names DIREKTOR and PRODUCER and they back each other up often in edits and on the talk page. If you refer to them in the same sentence they will accuse you of implying they are the same person and threaten you with being reported so when I refer to them together I make it clear that I accept they are two totally different editors and then I am told that I am making personal attacks and being sarcastic.--Smeat75 (talk) 14:06, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I was asking a rhetorical question when I said "Perhaps someone can examine this discussion and find evidence..." No administrator is going to wade into this thicket. You may want to keep a private record, off wiki, of the various conduct issues that have taken place on that page that amount to WP:OWN, such as false accusations of "personal attacks" for raising content issues and the "formal warnings" that I see emanating from one of the regulars there. One of these days you might need to quote those diffs. Hopefully this article will be put out of its misery long before then.-- Coretheapple (talk) 18:18, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

No administrator is going to wade into this thicket. - that seems clear. I suppose some of them must have read this thread, but not a one says a word, makes any comment or offers any guidance. They are all waiting for it to just go away I suppose. The talk page of the article is awash with threats of "I'll report you the next time!" "you should be reported" etc over and over, as if such threats of being taken to this board are somehow terrifying, in reality all that happens is that comments sit here until someone closes the thread as "no consensus".Smeat75 (talk) 02:32, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

These kind of appeals for "help" to targeted like minded users are flat out canvassing. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 08:11, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Anyone who looks at that discussion will see that in the next message I posted there I said "once again I ask you, or Jimbo, or anyone who sees this, to try to help us.Smeat75 (talk) 13:15, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

At that discussion I first said "I hope there will be lots of editors... who see this, go on to look at the article, and decide to help to improve it, or change the title, or delete it, or whatever, but it definitely needs participation from a wide part of the community" and then that specific person expressed his view so I said "come and help us then". I don't call that targeted, or canvassing.If I am wrong maybe an admin will tell me so.Smeat75 (talk) 12:34, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I would point out that I had previously left a message on the talk page of a user who in that same discussion had expressed a strong opinion that the article should not be deleted but the title might be changed, which is a different opinion to mine, asking that he would look at the article and "make suggestions for what should be done" on the article talk page.. I just think the article would benefit from more eyes on it, whether they agree with me or not.Smeat75 (talk) 12:44, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Also I asked at the NPOV noticeboard if others could look at the article and see what they thought of it, when an editor expressed an opinion I said "come and help us then" there too - If that is some dreadful infraction perhaps an admin will let me know.Smeat75 (talk) 12:53, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Let's not to forget flouting the article's talk page (per WP:TALKNEW) by creating an unacceptable section entitled "Attention new editors to this article and talk page" featuring an equally inappropriate call to arms diatribe as the purpose of the section. You're welcome to keep trying to justify the trail of 'just asking' around you've engaged in but, as has already been noted several times in responses to that section in a variety of contexts, if the number of forums and tone used doesn't add up to blatant canvassing, it most certainly adds up to gaming the system. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:18, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Mediation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Howunusual (talk • contribs) 00:59, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

What form of mediation would you suggest, Howunusual? The point is that there is nothing to mediate. Smeat75 started an ANI naming another contributor as being the source of the problem with an article that Smeat himself has POV issues with. Smeat's problem with the article is that Smeat is of the opinion that the article shouldn't exist. He has now found himself bogged down in defending himself against his WP:COI involvement, to which he has added violating WP:CANVASS in order to attract as many like-minded Wikipedians as possible, dragging the content of the article down even further than the lower depths it had been degraded to as a result of being turned into a WP:BATTLEFIELD.

There is no question of mediating between this, that or the other party involved. This should have been an ANI looking into Smeat's activities, full stop. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:22, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Dear Iryna, you, like everyone else you are entitled to your own personal POV, but please do not project that onto the rest of the universe you do not like, and hence kindly avoid the melodrama and violation of WP:SPIDERMAN. The ones who instigated this edit war and have run it all along are Users DIREKTOR (talk · contribs) and PRODUCER (talk · contribs) and they have recently faced a block for that, albeit a short one, but well-deserved. So cut the drama and if you wish to edit the article in a calm WP:NPOV manner please do so, otherwise your emotionalism borders on violating WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF and fomenting the very WP:BATTLEGROUND you accuse other hard-working editors of doing. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 06:39, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Jimbo Wales discussion and blocks & warnings for DIREKTOR and PRODUCER

NOTE: See the discussion at User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 161#"Jews and Communism" article that drew attention to DIREKTOR and PRODUCER who were both blocked, questioned, warned, and unblocked over their tactics at the Jews and Communism article. See User talk:DIREKTOR#Blocked indefinitely, User talk:PRODUCER#Sock puppetry or other close relationship and the admin who did it User talk:Jehochman#User:DIREKTOR and User:PRODUCER. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 06:30, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

So, people using Jimbo's user talk page because they can't get what they want through normal channels, and an admin running in and blocking one side on completely false grounds. This thing is rapidly approaching ArbCom territory. When will people learn that running to Jimbo serves no purpose but to increase drama? Fram (talk) 07:41, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi Fram, and feel free to join the debate, even better, please try doing something productive like improving or editing the Jews and Communism article, it sure needs help, I assure you your POV over there would be most welcome. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 09:12, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

No thanks, I don't need the abuse and complaints that invariably follow such articles. The previous discussion about this article that I tried to have with you here (or at AN) recently was more than enough to give me a flavour of the actions there. The frivolous blocks by Jehochman, based on some discussion at Jimbo Waleses, and seemingly unconcerned by discussions at general noticeboards and the like, have only reinforced my extreme reluctance to join the debate. But thanks for the invitation nonetheless. Fram (talk) 09:19, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Fram, I understand you fully, but not all of us can just sit some things out. Methinks though that if someone were writing about anyone's own ethnicity or coreligionists and their associations with a controversial political ideology they too would not have the luxury of sitting it out, at least I think so. Nevertheless your concern is appreciated. You know, I never voted to delete this article. My request was and is very simple, no denial, face the truth but put it in historical context for example perhaps merge it with History of Communism so that it makes sense, not an easy task. And as this debate has dragged on and on, I have often asked myself why User RoySmith (talk · contribs) the non-admin who closed off the original debate at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Jews and Communism handing victory to a minority (the vote for deletion was 22 in favor, three to merge into other articles, and 14 to keep see also Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2014 March 14), making it a "non-admin closure" that was actually never noted, and who allowed this unholy mess to grow like a cancer has never bothered to participate or peek in to watch his gift to WP grow like a festering sore, at least in acrimony between editors. Imagine this article could have been deleted, nipped in the bud, or as I suggested it be redirected and merged with History of Communism, then none of this would be happening now. All the acrimony and argumentation would be channeled into more productive work of genuine article improvement (hopefully). By the way, unlike DIREKTOR or PRODUCER, my style in more than 11 years on WP is never to run to ANI to get my way, no matter how rough the debate because I always feel users should come to some common understandings and work things out on their own. That is why there are talk pages for articles and for users kindly provided free of charge by WP with unlimited gigabyte space on its servers to hash things out by their mature selves. I take my editing seriously and will almost never involve myself in a subject I know nothing about. Anyhow, I am praying and hoping that the acrimony will stop soon, we all know this is not a healthy environment to be on WP. Hoping for the best. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 11:15, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Passover

NOTE to participating and closing admins: The final two days of the Jewish Passover holiday are from Sunday night April 20th, 2014 to Tuesday night April 22nd, 2014, that will make it very difficult for Jewish and Judaic editors to participate properly in this discussion during this time. The post-Passover days are also a traditionally very harried time. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 21:36, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Some initial observations

I haven't had time sufficient to investigate every aspect of the voluminous (and highly vitriolic) back-and-forth above, but I did read Talk:Jews and Communism#Secret police, again in it's entirety, read most of the article and investigated the edit history a little, and its left a strong impression as to which side probably represents the Lion's share of the cause of acrimony there, if what I've seen is indicative of the history there. Initially, reading the first half of this thread, I had a severely amped-up variation of that uncertainty and ambiguity you often have when you try to assess a discussion that has moved from article talk space to a procedural page, there were so many endlessly recursive accusations and counter-accusations involved. But I didn't have to get very far into thread before I began to see severe WP:Battleground behaviour on the part of Direktor and Producer. To be fair, the entire thread is contentious and I actually feel very divided by the content call that was being made there myself and can relate to elements of the auteur duo's arguments as much as those of their (more numerous) opposition. However, what sets them apart is the tone of their arguments. Producer especially comes off as incredibly caustic and personally affronted; from the very start of his involvement in this thread, he seems utterly incapable of reconciling that someone else would disagree with him and he is quite upfront about the fact that he views this opposition as absurd nonsense. That opposition mostly keeps their collective cool and are (relatively) dispassionately removed as they assert their argument -- which it bears repeating, I have middle-ground views on -- and Producer and Direktor remain hostile throughout, and both employ a technique of histrionic threatening of getting a higher power involved on multiple occasions.

Frankly, they are so alike in their indignation, that, taken with other circumstantial evidence, I'd be fairly certain they were mutual socks, but this SPI says that is not the case. Still, they seem to move and take action together and in the case of the discussion I observed, their action seems to be defined first and foremost at displaying outrage at being disagreed with. Perhaps this is simply a case of their being very passionate about the material in question or that baseline discussion there has just become superheated in general -- though given the descriptions given by some of those who have had to edit with them in the past, I doubt it's just a simple matter of either of those factors -- but in any event, there definitely seems an element of WP:OWN at work here. I can't speak to the behaviour just yet of most of the other parties involved in the discussion above, since a majority of them were not involved in that thread or only commented briefly, but at present time I'm seeing Lucas and Spielberg as significant contributors to the bad vibes on that page, regardless of whether their other edits (and reversions) on the article itself are or aren't warranted and regardless of how much they have made themselves available to talk on matters. Frankly I think other contributors there could probably be forgiven for wanting to avoid them at all costs; I wouldn't want to attempt consensus, compromise, and collaboration if I knew such hostility was a given from word go. That's my (admittedly initial) impressions of the situation on that article and talk page, from an uninvolved editor who has no interest of ever getting involved in that quagmire of recrimination. Snow (talk) 10:09, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I've been referred or inferred by a number of users that I'm an anti-semite, neo-Nazi, white nationalist, KKK member, agenda pusher, ooze prejudice from pores, am affiliated with Stormfront etc. at every possible opportunity and all without any fear of sanctions on their part. Been claimed I push extremist "memes", "lies", "slurs", and "libel". Had users criticize content based purely on feelings of being "disturbed" or "uncomfortable". Been associated with people who use rhetoric such as "Joos!" and "commies" when I only see these terms of this sort coming from users who supposedly criticize it. And had to repeat many times for users to discuss and use the talkpage and not edit war with one liners in summary boxes or throw attacks on the talkpage. It gets old, one gets tired of repeating themselves, and given the environment that I am in I'd say I've been pretty patient and calm all things considered.

To add to all this I had then been indef blocked on a hunch by Jehochman (an admin who is personally involved in the discussion and considers the article "ugly bigotry") with an apparent "shoot first, ask questions later" policy. Had him throw a clear CU finding under the bus in favor of believing that some elaborate conspiracy is in play and when asked for evidence as to why I and another user had been blocked, had him "point to long discussions to justify actions" (as one admin put it) or later claim he's "too busy" to do so. Only until numerous editors told him how ill-advised such an act and reasoning was did he decide to undo this. In the midst of all this I had serious false accusations thrown out liberally at me in the full knowledge that I can't defend myself in any capacity whatsoever while blocked and had backpattery be sent to those responsible for winning the "battle". Now I note that you've commended one of these users for this effort despite only having an "initial impression" on the matter. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 13:09, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I'd have to point out though that if they are at times hostile or caustic, it is secondary to having to deal with other editors who...let's be honest here...give every impression that they are there to sabotage the article because they were unable to get it deleted at the recent AfD. I know from experience that it is extremely frustrating to work with others who don't have the same goals as you do, i.e. article improvement. Having different POVs is fine and is to be expected, that's how some of our best articles hit the WP:NPOV sweet spot by having many voices contribute. But here, what it looks like is Producer, Direktor and a few others approach it as "here's a subject that is notable, let's write about it", while others are of the "this is vile antisemitism that personally offends me, what can I do to minimize that?" Tarc (talk) 13:24, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

PRODUCER refers to "users ....without any fear of sanctions on their part" and gives a string of diffs, they very first one which is of a user who was blocked because of their edits and actions with regard to Producer and is asking, in vain, for their account to be closed permanently because s/he does not want to participate on a site where one cannot challenge anti-Semitism . That user has retired from editing this site and I can certainly understand that. I have lost track of how many times PRODUCER has referred to me feeling "disturbed" by a particular aspect of that article, as if that is some sort of trump card showing the irrationality of what he faces, I am not ashamed of feeling disturbed by blatant anti-Semitism. I would point out that that article was quiet yesterday with user Pharos making a lot of edits that no one objected to. Today with Producer's return edit warring has started right back up again. PRODUCER and DIREKTOR should both be removed from editing that article.Smeat75 (talk) 13:54, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Does the possibility exist that that user's claims of antisemitism were found to be a bit...lacking in convincing-ness, if not outright false. Same with the sockpuppet accusations. This project has various forms of dispute resolution and means to deal with problematic editing and editors, but the problem is that most editors do not willingly submit themselves to the authority of others around here. So we have several editors over the years make the sock accusations against Producer & Direktor, the SPI is filed, the SPI is closed with no evidence found. Yet 4 years later, editors still toss the accusation around. Presumably this Atlantictire filed a complaint somewhere such as ANI about the antisemitism he/she perceived, yes? It appears that the complaint was found to be less-than-convincing or credible, thus no action taken against Producer and/or Direktor. Yet the accusation is still tossed around. Do we see a pattern yet? The thing is, very, very few editors enter into our various means of dispute resolution with the honest intention of listening to a 3rd party arbitrate the disagreement; instead, they enter into DR with the expectation that their p.o.v. will be validated. And when it isn't the outrage begins. Tarc (talk) 14:07, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm not making any comment about whether it was right for Atlantictire to be blocked or not, I am just pointing out that PRODUCER said users are free to call him names without fear of sanctions and gives a long string of diffs, the very first one which is of a user who was blocked for calling him names, among other things. Did he think no one was going to look at those diffs to see what they said? It is an obvious lie.Smeat75 (talk) 14:22, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Well y'know, I could declare right now that I don't want WP:NPA invoked to protect me and say "ok Smeat75, you are free to call me an asshole whenever you like, I won't do a thing". That's all well and good for me and for you, but other users and admins may not be so wild about that atmosphere being allowed to exist, and act accordingly. Now that I read through more of those diffs, I do remember who Atlantictire was now, the infamous "eat my fuck" guy, who was discussed here. You can't go around being that nasty, other people will step up and squash that every time. Tarc (talk) 14:48, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

No, once again, I am not defending Atlantictire or making any comment about whether the block was justified or not, I am pointing out that PRODUCER has posted an obvious, blatant, very clear lie on this page. "I've been referred or inferred by a number of users that I'm an anti-semite, neo-Nazi, white nationalist, KKK member, agenda pusher, ooze prejudice from pores, am affiliated with Stormfront etc. at every possible opportunity and all without any fear of sanctions on their part.' He says people can call him names without any fear of sanctions and posts a diff of someone who was blocked for calling him names, among other things, it is a transparent lie.Smeat75 (talk) 15:03, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Facepalm Did Producer file the complaint that led to Atlantictire's block? If the answer is "yes", you may have a point. If the answer is "no", your continued smears, calling this editor a liar, are running afoul of WP:NPA. Tarc (talk) 15:20, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean. He says people can call him names without fear of sanctions and posts a diff of someone who has been blocked for calling him names. Contradiction.Smeat75 (talk) 15:50, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, people CAN call him names, but his error was perhaps in the declaration of "no fear of sanction will come to you", as that was quite beyond his control. That doesn't make it a contradiction, it makes it a "making a claim that one cannot enforce". Again per my example above, I can tell you to call me whatever names you like and I won't care. But 3rd parties may indeed care and take action; my words to you are not binding on them. And yes, in the future I could envision indulging in a slight bit of glee at your misfortune as Producer did, as after all, you are responsible what comes out of your own mouth, or fingers, as it were. No one but Atlantictire was responsible for Atlantictire's words and deeds. Tarc (talk) 16:10, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

• I'll just say this. I don't know what the deal is with the editors who created and defended that line of garbage some called an article. You don't create an article called "Jews and Communism" without knowing the history of the antisemitic canard. Especially when you have a line up of all those sources. As for PRODUCER being offended by my comments about the article, I could give a shit. There was clear intent on creating that article, and anyone who knows the history of the "Jews and Communism" canard knows this. I don't care how many well meaning editors work on that article, as long as it's titled and themed as "Jews and Communism", it should be deleted. Period. Dave Dial (talk) 15:08, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

• Anyone is free to file another AfD, esp after the last one ended not in "keep" but "no consensus". Perhaps more editors will see it as un-salvageable this time around. Tarc (talk) 15:20, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

• I would like to think that more editors would see it as salvageable this time around, giving the evolution from the initial version by the participation of new "well-meaning" editors (such as myself!). However, I do think that possibly the title and some of the scope issues could use some more thought, and would encourage people to participate, and not to be standoff-ish and wait for another AFD (which hopefully we can avoid!).--Pharos (talk) 16:06, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

• Why do you want to "fix it"? Would you want to fix an article titled Negros and Crime? How about Homos and Pedophilia? That article was created the same way those articles would be. Looking through sources, trying to find connections, and taking those connections and adding them all together. Which is what we call on Misplaced Pages, original research and synthesis. And the articles would be created for the same reason, the original author would have to know there is a racist/antisemitic connotation to the topic, but would delve into subject by using the same kinds of sources the racists/antisemites would use. Just search "Jews and Communism" with Google. Any non anti-Semitic results on the first page? No. How about the second page. No. There is an insipid meaning to the phrase, and I wish those who know about it's meaning and what is trying to be accomplished would step up and stop it. Instead of trying to "fix" something that cannot be fixed. Time spent trying to fix it could be used in getting rid of it. It's an insult this was not deleted in the first place. The results were obvious and the closer made a piss-poor decision. Dave Dial (talk) 16:37, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

• I am not going to offer any defense of the original version of the article. And neither am I going to defend the name, which is pretty bad, and which can probably be changed. However, I am convinced by my reading of numerous sources that the Jewish experience with Communism in the 20th century (including Soviet Antisemitic activities) is a notable topic, and we should have some sort of article on it.--Pharos (talk) 17:21, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Well, on my first page in a google search for "jews and communism" I get Stanisław Krajewski's paper "Jews, Communists and Jewish Communists, in Poland, Europe"(cached version) which is cited in the article. I'll note that it ends with the statements "Talking about it must not be left to antisemites. Sensitivity and good will is needed to understand the story of Jewish communists." If only editors could relax and find the sensitivity and good will to collaborate on the topic. Maybe a dedicated article isn't needed, maybe there are better ways of handling it, I don't know or particularly care, but people should try to relax and focus on building encyclopedic content. It's not a badge of shame. It's just history, a tiny part of the "information of everything". Maybe one day, everyone will agree with Ben Katchor's view that "racial identity is just a dangerous fantasy" (from his interview with Derek Parker Royal) and there will be peace and goodwill throughout this land of Misplaced Pages, but for now it would be better if people stopped taking shots at each other. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:30, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Like Tarc said: certain editors involved over there give every impression that they're out to sabotage the article: their proposals and positions are suggestive of a disdain for the quality of the article, while disruptive users like Smeat75 have gone out of their way to render constructive discussion on that page as difficult as they can, through frequent flaming and (otherwise-useless) attack threads. This was well demonstrated by Producer. Pharos is indeed a notable exception in that regard, and hats off to him. But that's just part of the problem.

The main problem is that editors refuse to abide by the Misplaced Pages editing standards. In spite of my best efforts, WP:CON and WP:BRD have no meaning on that article whatsoever. Editors (Pharos included) insist that their ability to gang up and revert-war authorizes them to override opposition on the talkpage.
And that is indeed the core issue here: while there's edit-warring there can be no civil discussion, while there's no civil discussion there can be no resolution to the outstanding issues. This is all that needs to be done (at least for starters): WP:CONS needs to be enforced. With blocks, if necessary, for anyone who violates the policy. Or rather goes on violating it.

Uphold policy. Simple, really. And I do hope admins will help. -- Director (talk) 06:30, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

BRD is a good concept to generally focus on during periods of contention, but from what I've observed, cavalier editing attitudes and even edit warring are less an issue than the general inability of parties to give ground and work collaboratively once discussion has started. On a separate point, if you are having to "enforce" consensus on more than half of the active editors on the talk page, it's likely you never achieved it in the first place. Snow (talk) 07:27, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Not if half of the "more than half" arrived later and only started complaining after weeks have passed (once one of them brainstormed another in the series of "lets delete this now!" ideas). -- Director (talk) 09:15, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

I"m afraid this type of attitude toward "latecomers" is pretty much the definition of WP:OWN. You perhaps don't mean to be doing this, but that is certainly the effect.--Pharos (talk) 14:27, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

DIREKTOR the tone and stance you adopt are just too harsh. You come across as too much of a "boss man" when WP requires an ability to get along with a range of editors with who are only human beings with a wide range of abilities, time on their hands and other qualities. Editors are not "worker bees" who if they do not "punch in their cards and salute 'the boss'" at WP are fired or censured en masse. That is not the way to go about things. You must also show more respect for the obvious high level of intelligence and education of all editors who have gotten involved so far. For obvious reasons this is a highly emotional and sensitive topic to many people. Not every person from any ethnicity and religion would take kindly to talk calmly about the relationship of their group or coreligionists with a highly volatile topic such as the divisive and controversial communist ideology. One cannot pour hot water on humans and then say hey why are you screaming, cursing, and doing all sorts of things. While you and PRODUCER have obviously mastered some material about this topic, and your unique highly collaborative method of trying to enforce this topic from your own POV's that in in the long run is an illusion/delusion and impossibility, as you can tell, because there will always be others with opposing POV's and you will just have to get your minds around that just as you would like others to be respectfully accepting of yours. I think that the following post by User FkpCascais (talk · contribs) gives the rest of us who have not had the pleasure of working collaboratively with you and PRODUCER very important insights into your methods and modus operandi. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 09:50, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Dear IZAK, you shouldn't be so modest about your neutrality and the good faith with which you deal with other hard working contributors. Apparently, there are many of us who should be thanking you for showing us the meaning of civility. I've found your courteous, yet straight-talking approach to be most edifying. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 10:35, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

FkpCascais is a highly biased "background" provider, to say the least. Quite simply, I imagine he still hates my guts for insisting that Misplaced Pages not cover up Chetnik collaboration with the Nazis and their ilk (you know, stuff like this). In fact if I recall, the affair ended with him getting topic banned or something for tendentious editing. Personally I wouldn't give a wooden nickle for any of his "opinions" on my character. -- Director (talk) 12:08, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

I didn't want to dignify Fkp's biased complaints with a response, but seeing as IZAK is citing it as some definitive proof it should be known it is him not I that had ARBMAC sanctions placed for disruptive editing in the area. I've collapsed this "evidence" as this discussion is already convoluted enough as it is. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 12:38, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Direktor, I don´t "hate you" because of you having your own opinion on the matter (everyone is entitled to disagree and opposing views should be welcomed to form consensus), I disagree with your methods of discussion and dealing with opposing editors. You make it allways a matter of win/loose and you use all partisan methods to win. Also, I don´t know how you talk about my sanction when you have a full page of sanctions and blocks. I dare to say that my topic ban at that time must have been the most exagerated TP of all time and I ended up banned because you and other users made the environment there so nasty and toxic that admins simply gave up to the easiest solution to your folcloric complains (at that time you made so many reports and you and Producer knew pretty well how to present the complains in order that when one came there to defend himself, admins unfamiliarised with the matter were already convinced by you).

Beleave me or nor, I actually came here to defend the two of you against the anti-semitic accusations. I am familiarised with your region and from years-long experience with you I know that you are a Croatian from Split who is a leftist, so I know that racism and anti-semitism was never even near you. The problem allways starts when some users oppose some of your edits and you start a full-scale war. It has been repetitive in many subjects around wikipedia. Here for instance (Talk:Yugoslav_Front#Alternate_proposal_2_.28National_Liberation_War.29) you clearly push a POV title in which the fight of your "Tito Partisans" would be the main subject, when you are not supported in that by absolutely anyone and all except you recognise the complexity of the war there. You simply deny that monarchsts also fought to liberate the country from Axis and had it as goal. I don´t agree with your attitude here on WP. This Jews and Communism was just another exemple where instead of working towards compromise you just entrered in war with another group of editors. And I think you didn´t even had the necessity to have conflict there, you could have just compromised easily there. But no, it is not your way, you like it more to fight, then enter into reports, make ir all escalate from one incident into a full-scale world war. FkpCascais (talk) 14:35, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

your observations are very interesting - your experience of direktors attitude and hostile superior-tone, chimes with mine actually, -also I remember reading George Orwell and his wondering about how fair the treatment of Draža Mihailović was- Sayerslle (talk) 17:55, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Indeed :) The entire subject of Draza Mihailovic Chetniks is very complex. However we had Direktor and his team grabbing the articles and writting them the way they wanted, which, as everyone can see, is all about "Chetniks posing with German troops" as if that was smple as that and only that mattered. I don´t want even to recall the horror that those 2-3 years of fighting with Direktor were. FkpCascais (talk) 03:43, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Whatever, Fkp. It would be nice if you tried to keep your pro-Chetnik agenda out of at least some of the disputes I happen to get involved in. -- Director (talk) 04:24, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Just as note, I am not a "pro-Chetnik" editor, I simply recognise the complexity in which they found themselfs during WWII. I actually got involved into it when I noteced that you and Producer grabbed the pretty much neutral and objective articles about them and started labeling them all over as collaborators. I opposed you, and since them I got used that you allways start saying how I am biased pro-Chetnik editor in order to discret me. Just another exemple of your disruptive pattern in discussions, as you quite often do this to editors opposing you. I will now leave this discussion to others. FkpCascais (talk) 20:05, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you FkpCascais (talk · contribs). By the way, what does "Potočnik" mean in English? Thanks, IZAK (talk) 07:56, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

It's the 7th most common surname in Slovenia and doesn't mean anything in particular (other than being a rush - that is, the plant - and is probably an allusion to an occupation or region from whence an ancestor hailed from). Perhaps he admires Janez Potočnik, or it might actually be his surname. If it were tied to any unpleasant personages or allegiances, I'm sure you would have heard about it by now. Hope this helps. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:05, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

It's a tribute to visionary Herman Potočnik. Nothing malicious or sinister. --Potočnik (talk) 09:12, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Updates: DIREKTOR & PRODUCER are warned by Jehochman, while PRODUCER changes his user name to Potočnik

It is only fair that this discussion be updated of User Jehochman (talk · contribs) admin's parallel guidance towards Users DIREKTOR (talk · contribs) and PRODUCER (talk · contribs) (the latter now known as User Potočnik (talk · contribs)):

• User talk:DIREKTOR#Diffs
• User talk:Potočnik#Ownership and battleground mentality
• User talk:Potočnik#Your username (where DIREKTOR suggests that PRODUCER change his user name and PRODUCER complies) and is thanked .

Thank you, IZAK (talk) 07:56, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

My guess at the name change request is probably they were both tired of various sock puppet accusations since they have been going on for over a year. I don't find it terribly odd that they would try to deconflict that since they seem to be interested in overlaping articles, and any article they actually agree on they immediately get accussed of sockpuppetry. I would do something similar if someone was named Divanir or something close to my handle and constantly started taking flak over it. Tivanir2 (talk) 13:13, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and Izak's posting of the name change here as if it was some kind of "incident" looks pretty WP:BATTLEFIELDy to me. BMK (talk) 23:18, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Yea, it's kind of silly at the very least. But he may be worked up after Direktor told him not to edit the article anymore, after identifying him as a "Jew" trying to dissociate Jews from Communism. Dave Dial (talk) 00:02, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Ooops! That's a bit blatant. Apparently Jews and Communism is about "Communism, not anti-Communism" so it is not permissible for IZAK to include text showing Jews who opposed Communism—that article is only to show Jews who caused/promoted Communism. Johnuniq (talk) 10:39, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

I assume you're expressing Director's opinion about the scope of the article? To my mind, an article entitled "Jews and Communism" should be about the relationship between Jewish people and Communism, include any anti-Communist efforts made by Jews. Any other limitation is totally artificial. BMK (talk) 16:02, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

The accusations of anti-semitism are getting quite tiring. We don't need a Misplaced Pages secret police. RGloucester — ☎ 00:15, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

No. What we really don't need is antisemitism. And what are you referring to when you say "Misplaced Pages secret police"? What could that possibly mean? Dave Dial (talk) 00:31, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

If an editor has been engaging n antisemitic rhetoric, then bring it to the appropriate board for sanction. Just calling other editors "antisemines" over and over and over, without proof, can and should lead to a bit of a WP:BOOMERANG. Tarc (talk) 00:53, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

There is plenty of evidence of antisemitic behavior. The article itself, as it was created, was just a copy of the Jewish Bolshevism article. Only without telling readers it was a conspiracy theory. I just linked to a comment above that was over the line. That editors accept such as a matter of fact is the most egregious part of this whole mess. Dave Dial (talk) 01:19, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

I see evidence of anti-leftist behaviour, myself. Apparently no thinks it is a problem to equate communism with 'evil'. That doesn't matter. Content. Not contributor. RGloucester — ☎ 01:25, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, yes. I've seen these types of red herrings before. So if someone points out that there was/is a Nazi/White Nationalist conspiracy theory involving "Jews and Communism", they are just anti-communists suggesting communism is somehow "evil". Not pointing out that that Hitler used this conspiracy theory to rile up the masses in his efforts to exterminate Jewish people. Just as if I stated that there are Homosexual conspiracy theories, I must be against homosexuals? Or perhaps those defending articles attempting to legitimize conspiracy theories regarding "Jews" wouldn't be so quick to defend those in other areas. At least that is what it seems like. I mean, it's not as important as Misplaced Pages using the term "wife of" to describe someone or anything. Dave Dial (talk) 02:01, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

If you did not read my comments below, you cannot expect me to take you seriously. As I said, I was not commenting on the content of the article. Merely on the behaviour of certain editors. RGloucester — ☎ 03:05, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

We don't need antisemitism, nor do we need a cabal accusing editors of being antisemitic repeatedly. It isn't productive.RGloucester — ☎ 00:54, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

did you even look at what was written at the talkpage? i agree with beyond my ken -to say an article titled 'jews and communism' is only to be about links between jews and communism, and then wikilawyering about how anything else isn't to be discussed because in the one book that is the source for the article its only about links(or something, I couldn't get my head round what TFD was saying really) -if an article is to be called 'jews and communism' then it seems to me that it can and should take in very much more than what was in fact the aim of Goebbels 1930s Nazi propaganda - to fuse Bolshevism and jews in the public mind. what are 'antisemines' tarc? is that a word? Sayerslle (talk) 01:08, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Let me ask this again. What are you referring to when you say "Misplaced Pages secret police"? What could you possible be referring to? Dave Dial (talk) 01:11, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't speaking about the article content (I've been watching it for a very long time, at this point, but haven't edited it). I was speaking about attacks on other editors. As for 'secret police', I was referring to the tendency, it seems, for certain editors to go on an anti-Semite witch-hunt, rather than dealing with content. I believe we have a policy in this regard, titled WP:NPA. RGloucester — ☎ 01:14, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

• What makes this article peculiarly difficult is that Jews and communism is an obviously notable topic, (or group of topics, for there are quite a number of different aspects and subtopics) with an immense literature, but a good part of the primary literature and some of the secondary is biased against Jews and against Communism.. It is an anti-semetic canard that the Jews are evil because many of them are Communists, or that Communism is evil because many of the prominent figures were Jews. In either case it relies upon the readers assumptions that either the Jews or Communists are so obviously vile that anything can be damned by sowing an association with them. (From the POV of a communist it could equally be seen as an anti-communist canard.) And from the POV of a Jewish Communist it could be seen as a tribute to both Jews and Communism. This is an aspect that must be discussed, but should not overwhelm the article. Historically, it has been the case that anything that deals with the Jewish participation in anything is capable of being used as anti-semitism: if the thing is good, the Jews are debasing it; if questionable, it proves the nature of the Jews. Anything connected with Judaism can be used in this manner, and almost aeverything has been so used. I can understand that in anti-semetic régimes, Jews would protect themselves by trying to avoid any discussion about Jewish topics by non-Jews. I am also aware of a historical fear among Jews that regardless how good things may be now, a period of persecution will return--and it has often been a rational fear. DGG ( talk ) 06:12, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

@DGG: A very well-thought out response. It is nice to see some logos amid the pathos. RGloucester — ☎ 16:45, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

@DGG: Indeed, your comment was extremely edifying. I certainly was not aware of the Jewish historical narrative and feel confident that the majority of us are equally as ignorant of it. You did, however, forget to mention the number of Jewish contributors/editors who have been 'identified' by some 'body' as being unequivocally self-loathing Jews or classic anti-semites (it appears to come about where particular content input is deemed to be undesirable). Could you now explain what your point actually means in terms of the content of Misplaced Pages. In real terms, which areas of Misplaced Pages should be proscribed and how does the Misplaced Pages community determine taboo subjects from pleasant and nice content? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:04, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Recurrance of disruptive Nazi-related editing by User:Hoops gza

User:Hoops gza has previously caused problems by adding individuals who do not meet the criteria for List of Nazis to that page and Category:Nazis, even going so far as to remove those criteria from the page and claim that they'd been added by a random editor (rather than by the creator of the list article, to prevent its deletion). He has also created an absurd number of redirects in non-English languages on the English WP, arguing that the rules against this didn't apply because the topic was special (the Holocaust). He's at it again. This time he's also creating obsessively-specific categories such as Category:Nazis executed by Albert Pierrepoint. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 14:10, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Let me get this straight. I added the Category:Nazis to people who were verifiable Nazi Party members (you can take a look at the German Misplaced Pages's de:Kategorie:NSDAP-Mitglied to see how this is done). Ergo, they were Nazis.Hoops gza (talk) 17:00, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

We've been through this before, at length. Are you saying that you cannot remember this discussion, that you do not understand it, or that you refuse to accept it? -Jason A. Quest (talk) 11:59, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

I can say for certain that Hoops gza was incorrect at List of Nazis, the article's creator was Dr. Blofeld, and Dr. Blofeld was the person who originally added that language. The statement that Hoops gza made in this edit summary is nonsense (easily seen by anyone checking the article history). However, that edit war ended over a month ago, so it's not really worth bringing up anymore.

I'm also not sure what's problematic about those redirects, I don't dispute that there are "rules" being broken but I can't see where they are.

The category you mentioned above is at CfD, so the fate of the category should be settled there. The guideline for creating categories is here. I'm not quite sure, however, what determines whether or not a category should exist, and therefore what would be an excessive number of frivolous and/or redundant categories. To my eye, I don't really see what's wrong with these categories, I've seen some pretty crazy category creation sprees be reported to this board but this doesn't strike me as one. To look at all of the existing categories that Hoops gza has created, see this list. -- Atama頭 21:07, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

His edit-warring is relevant because he's just restarted it. The garbage redirects demonstrate his disregard for Misplaced Pages rules to suit his own agenda. The frivolous/obsessive categories are merely supporting evidence of his disruptiveness. And his comment above ... is simply baffling. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 11:59, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

And now he is asserting that the discussion never took place. For someone who engages this freely in historical revision/denial to be editing articles about the Holocaust is cause for concern. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 18:50, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

I've tried communicating with him; he just ignores me, off in his own alternate reality. Could someone at least suggest what I might do about this problem editor? Reverting his edits is getting tiresome. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 13:25, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

More uncommunicative reverts. More garbage redirects. Please advise me on whether I should continue to try to deal with this problem editor (and if so how), of if I should just stop wasting my time asking for help and let him do whatever the hell he wants. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 18:37, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

He is definitely a problem - and doesn't play nice with others. If ANI doesn't do anything (and I think a topic ban may be in order) than an RfC may be the way to go. Dougweller (talk) 15:57, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Laughable, man. Because you two are experts on the topic, right?Hoops gza (talk) 16:12, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Also weighing in here that at August Landmesser he has resumed doing something that was discussed on the article talk page in March with no one agreeing with his position - for him to deny the discussion occurred is concerning, as is his position regarding the List of Nazis articles (which also arose in that discussion). Yngvadottir (talk) 16:19, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I have blocked Hoops gza for 72 hours, noting that there was also a related AN3 report currently open about this case. Not sure if that will be sufficient to get the point across though. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:25, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I find it humorous that the header at the top of the Nazi category page says "It should directly contain very few, if any, articles and should mainly contain subcategories." The number of pages on individuals in that category greatly exceeds the number of subcategories or non-individual articles. Ravensfire (talk) 17:10, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I would also welcome comment on his exhaustive creation of redirects (e.g. random phrases from "I Am the Walrus", or 2nd wife of Herman Goering and permutations thereof, or Holocaust in other languages even those with non-Latin alphabets with no apparent connection to the subject, etc). I know what Misplaced Pages policy is (not to do this), but I'm not sure if it's considered disruptive or not. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 18:23, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I tried looking at Special:Contributions/Hoops gza to see examples of "walrus" redirects, but there is a lot of hyperactivity there, including the creation of a bunch of redirects and a category that appear dubious to me, so I gave up. If anyone familiar with the norms of such creation has the strength to provide a few examples, perhaps a topic ban would assist. In view of the "Ergo, they were Nazis" comment above (on top of the discussion at Talk:August Landmesser#"Nazi" from March), I would support a Nazi-related category topic ban to prevent future disruption and misuse of the category system. Johnuniq (talk) 01:51, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Looking at the user's last 500 edits to the article space, the Walrus group appears to start with Expert texpert at 22:11 on 27 April; there's also a group of redirects to A Clockwork Orange (disambiguation) starting with Ultra-violence at 20:24 on 26 April and a shorter set of redirects to Full Metal Jacket starting with This is my rifle this is my gun at 03:39 on 27 April. I think the redirects to Göring's wives (1st wife, First wife, Goering, Göring, etc., etc.) to "dad" and "mum" of Mozart and Beethoven (composer's names both in short form and spelled out) and to misspellings of Thames and the different permutations of abbreviations and non-abbreviations for Natzweiler-Struthof are excessive, but I don't see a similar problem with the Porajmos categories; it's legitimate to distinguish that specific genocide. Yngvadottir (talk) 17:54, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Not all of his redirects (and other edits) are problematic. But so many of them are utterly useless. Some examples from 27 April include Pornagraphic priestess , Crabalocker fish wife (also "fishwife"), Expert, texpert, choking smokers (also without commas), and I am the egg man, they are the egg men, I am the walrus (+5 variations on punctuation). On 26 April, there were about 70 Clockwork-Orange redirects using phrases containing "ultra violence"/"ultraviolence"/"ultra-violence" (some of which don't even appear in the film or the novel), almost 50 redirects from variations on the names of Moatzart, Wolfgang Amadeus and Baytoven, Ludwig van and awkward phrases referring to their relatives. On 25 April were three dozen creative redirects to Erwin Rommel. In March he created redirects within WP-EN from مرگ انبوہ (Urdu), ഹോളോകോസ്റ്റ് (Malayalam), হলোকস্ট (Bengali), 홀로코스트 (Korean), and dozens of other non-English terms to Holocaust, as if there were circumstance in which they could be useful. (When this was challenged, he replied "I think that this one warrants having the foreign languages, for some reason.") He's mostly just wasting his own time with these, but they set a poor example of how redirects are intended to be used. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 18:19, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

• Pinging Johnuniq since examples were provided, and to prevent this from being archived; I don't think the discussion reached a conclusion. His block ended and he's started a new discussion at Talk:List of Nazis. Yngvadottir (talk) 04:31, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
• The current strategy at Talk:List of Nazis#Criteria, Round 2 appears to be to persist until all objections to their changes are overcome, and their contributions from two hours ago () shows the creation of 37 redirects to Clockwork Orange pages. The pointless discussions and redirects are no help for the encyclopedia. What topic ban should be proposed? Something like "Hoops gza is indefinitely topic banned from all edits or discussion regarding categories relating to Nazism, and from the creation of redirects based on misspellings"? Johnuniq (talk) 04:58, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
• Since when is there anything wrong with holding a discussion on a talk page? I'm not persisting on anything, it's just that the original discussion was inconclusive, so please calm down. You're overreacting.Hoops gza (talk) 05:03, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Just stop creating any redirects, for now. Most of the ones you've created today are similarly useless, or of very little value. Failing to take discussions like this one seriously will likely lead to a wide-ranging topic ban. Gigs (talk) 21:18, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

HiLo48's incivility

Hello, it appears our friend HiLo48 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is back at it again. His contributions for the past several days include a smattering of personal attacks directed at Christian Misplaced Pages users at multiple. Here is a selection of them.

• "This is an area where I cannot assume good faith. I don't believe you would find any argument against your faith compelling. You are dishonestly playing with words" and " Given your self declaration of religious faith on your User page, and your already demonstrated appalling behaviour in unilaterally closing the thread earlier, it's obvious that you cannot possibly approach this topic objectively. Your opinion carries no weight at all here now." (Directed at two separate users in one diff)
• "Silly comment. I'll try asking some random people next time I'm in India or China. 'MOST' people don't live in places like the religious parts of the USA."
• "Not good Christian behaviour at all"
• "Global? That's just silly. Or ignorant. Or arrogant. Examples please. Pretty sure Easter's not a holiday in India, or China, or any Muslim country. That's taking a lot away from 'global'" and
• "The mere fact that a self-declared conservative Christian editor shut it down hasn't exactly hasn't exactly cooled things off. It's now been re-opened, but peace shouldn't be expected any time soon with that blatantly POV pushing editor still active there."
• "And I sincerely thank StAnselm, a user who openly and clearly declares their conservative Christian position on their User page, for virtually instantly proving my point by unilaterally attempting to close down this discussion immediately after I made that post."
• "But a hard core of mostly Christian adherents here will continue to behave in un-Christian ways to prevent it happening. I'm not sure what they think their god will do to them if they allow Misplaced Pages to do it job properly and fairly."
• "How sad is it that the discussion has now been shut down by an editor whose User page tells us very clearly is a conservative Christian?"

Those are all edits within the past three days. Let's also remember that HiLo48 has a lengthy block log and was previously topic banned from WP:ITN for extreme incivility directed at American editors. There was also an RFCU on HiLo from October 2012, which includes a detailed table of past disputes where editors brought him to AN, ANI, etc. I suspect there have been more threads like those filed in the past 18 months.
In the interest of fairness, I do have a lengthy track record with HiLo, dating back to our past encounters at WP:ITN and am involved in two of the discussions I've reported HiLo for above, though none of those comments are directed at me. But enough is enough. How many times can someone mock and attack someone for their religious beliefs and still get away with it? Calidum 00:55, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Until Misplaced Pages comes up with an unarguable definition of "incivility', this discussion is pointless. Anything based on an individual's definition, one that might differ from somebody else's, means nothing here. There are far too many points above for me to attempt to discuss. I expect more abuse and alleged mud from the past to be hurled again now. As a lone voice against such dirt I have no hope. This is just another attempt by our user above with the unreadable name to silence an effective critic. My thoughts on AN/I are well recorded. I probably won't post again in this thread. HiLo48 (talk) 01:03, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

• "There are far too many points above for me to attempt to discuss."

You don't have to address every comment but you might at least try to provide an explanation of your remarks rather than claiming to be the victim here. This is your chance to offer some defense for being incivil. You might not have crossed the fuzzy line of incivility from whence no one returns but it does look like you were baiting other editors. Liz 01:21, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

I do not agree. This does not appear to be so much uncivil as an opinion of other behavior and the need for some to find fault in that.--Mark Miller (talk) 01:26, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

"How many times can someone mock and attack someone for their religious beliefs and still get away with it?" As many times as people mock others for other reasons... such as being gay. And seriously...I do not feel you have demonstrated that it was actually mocking.--Mark Miller (talk) 01:28, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) This is, in fact, uncivil behavior. The simple fact is that if HiLo48 had made the comments he made above about any other religion, this discussion would already be academic on account of his having been beaten up with big words and warned not to ever do it again, at the very least. The fact that other people mock others and get away with it is irrelevant: this is attacking another editor on the basis of their religion and casting aspersions that they are incapable of being netural because of their religion, and it needs to be dealt with accordingly. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:48, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

I am actually surprised by how much I disagree with you here, but go for it.--Maleko Mela (talk) 03:03, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: I have only just realise this thread existed, and I had not idea that HiLo48 had been making all these comments about me. Yes, I closed the discussion, and my closure was reverted by the person who started the discussion. I believe my closure was within the spirit of WP:BOLD, but I accept that the community wants this discussed once again, and I have contributed to the discussion with a !vote, which HiLo48 responded to with "Your opinion carries no weight at all here now". Anyway, I think HiLo48 is attacking Christians here, and these sort of attacks should be dealt with as we would deal with blatant sexism or racism. Finally, I should like to point out that the comment that HiLo48 has made on multiple pages about how I am a "self-declared conservative Christian editor" is completely false. I identify as a Christian on my user page, but nowhere do I identify as conservative. StAnselm (talk) 02:46, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

• Let me be blunt here, from the above, you are clearly incorrect with:"is completely false" as you do admit to declaring you identify "as a Christian on my user page". So...Hilo's comment is not completely false, just mistaken. I have seen many people on Misplaced Pages confused with conservatism over such issues and it may not be the best way to deal with others but it isn't a huge leap, just a small jump, which could well be the opinion of the editor for other reasons.--Maleko Mela (talk) 03:00, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

I identify myself on my user page as a Christian, but not as a conservative Christian. While the inference might be understandable, for HiLo48 to explicitly state that I self-identify as such is wrong. And making false statements about other editors like that should not be tolerated. Is it "completely" wrong? It is in the sense that the statement was clearly and explicitly referring to how I self-identify. StAnselm (talk) 03:21, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Just to clarify, it isn't being called a conservative Christian that bothers me, but that HiLo48 specifically referred to me self-identifying as such. In any case, this isn't really what the thread is about. The bigger problem is the assumption that I am not able to edit in a neutral manner, or - even worse - that I am not even trying to. StAnselm (talk) 03:28, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)You seem to be deciding what this is about and I am not sure you are actually correct, but let me say this much, when you make a declaration on your user page you are opening up an entire can of worms you must be prepared for. Just as I have been told that declaring my sexual preference (I am VERY gay) is something I must be prepared for. Criticism is not an attack and I really do disagree with Bushranger here. Assumptions of bias are not what I consider to need admin intervention but that all depends on the extent.--Maleko Mela (talk) 03:40, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

It is extensive, in this case. None of my disagreements with HiLo have resulted in anything other than his imagining some fictitious bad-faith POV pushing on my part. I think it says something about his willingness to assume ulterior motives that "Christian" can mean nothing other than "conservative Christian" to him. Evan  03:42, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

I said I probably wouldn't post here again, but these selective claims by StAnselm and their supporters demand clarification. The first two, very conspicuously placed user boxes on StAnselm's User page say "This user is a Christian" and "This user is a Calvinist". That's a lot more than the above defensive claims. This user has gone out of their way to tell us that they are not simply a Christian. Perhaps my summarising that as conservative may not match StAnselm's view of themselves, but I happen to work with a lot of self declared Christians who would definitely see StAnselm's position as conservative. HiLo48 (talk) 04:01, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

But you jumped to the conclusion that, for me, "Calvinist" means "conservative". And now that it has been pointed out to you that this is false, you should withdraw your personal attack. StAnselm (talk) 04:09, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Jumping to conclusions is not a personal attack. If the editor made the assumption in good faith (yeah...I bet you don't assume their good faith do you?) then, if they are mistaken, that is it.....a mistake, however, as I read the Calvinist article, I could also agree that it is easy to make that mistake...if it is a mistake. Conservatism is a rather broad term, as liberalism is.--Maleko Mela (talk) 04:15, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Oh, WP:BOOMERANG, yes. But the relevant question for anyone familiar with the track record is, how long are we supposed to tolerate one editor who sees sinister crypto-Christian, crypto-conservative cabals around every corner? How many non-existent smoke-filled rooms must I be accused of hanging around before he stops making the accusations? Evan  04:23, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

In the benighted part of the colonies I come from, Calvinist groups like the Presbyterians are rarely afforded even the second half of the "conservative Christian" designation. YMMV, I suppose. Evan  04:11, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Not to get completely off topic here, but while we're on the subject of userpages, it should be noted that HiLo's has contained the following mission statement for the past 18 months: "I also find it necessary to protect Misplaced Pages against, again, mostly American editors who want to impose conservative, middle American Christian values here. Apparently Conservapedia isn't enough for them. Mind you, I love America, and many Americans. The country's and their image, however, is damaged severely in the eyes of the rest of the world by those whose values come from a very conservative interpretation of the Bible." This seems to be in direct contradiction with WP:BATTLE, which states "Misplaced Pages is not a place to hold grudges, import personal conflicts, carry on ideological battles, or nurture prejudice, hatred, or fear." Calidum 04:16, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

You do realize that you are making an accusation without any demonstration of its accuracy....right?--Maleko Mela (talk) 03:56, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Well, I've had the self-identification on my user page for several years now. I would have thought that declaration of sexual preferences would be a good analogy. I would regard it as totally unacceptable for anyone to assume that Maleko Mela is unable or unwilling to edit LGBT-related articles in a neutral manner. StAnselm (talk) 03:50, 26 April 2014 (UTC

If you cannot see your own bias...you may need it pointed out on occasion, which is the EXACT REASON I limit my editing on LGBT topics. Got anything else Anselm?--Maleko Mela (talk) 03:56, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

I've seen nothing actionable to the point of a block as of yet, but I do think HiLo needs a good talking-to. His comments to Anselm were offensive and uncivil, and I fully agree with Bushranger's observation above. Anyway, he's been rather nice to me so far this go round, but we have crossed paths before. His problem isn't so much that he is habitually uncivil (I suspect a great deal of that is simply tongue-in-cheek), but that I've never seen him assume good faith on anyone's part, ever. Evan  03:35, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, HiLo48 needs to make fewer ad hominems and should assume more good faith on the part of the faithful. There's nothing wrong with fighting against bias (systemic or otherwise), but it can be done in a more respectful way. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 17:32, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

• I don't remember any significant crossing of paths with HiLo and I'm not a Christian, so I think I can be pretty objective when I say that those comments are uncivil. They are thinly veiled jabs, mocking. HiLo, you say on your user page that NPOV is important, and I take you at your word. Then you need to realize your own bias here and perhaps pull back to a safe distance. We all have biases, and if we are wise, we realize when we have reached the limits of our own objectivity. This is the kind of stuff that will get a person topic banned if it were to continue. You need to find within yourself the ability to see through other's eyes here. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 17:08, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

• I'm not Christian either, but I am a member of several projects and help collaborate with Christian editors. What I see above is not all entirely uncivil. Some of it could be seen that way and I won't argue against that. But what I will say is that the OP was accusing the editor of attacking editors for just being Christian and that is something I don't see demonstrated. Sure, it is easy to say the remarks are uncivil, and I can see why there would be a perception of such, but I do not see this as an attack against Christians in General. Editors should not be discussing the contributor. Just comment on the contribution. So in that way, Hilo is clearly in the wrong. But I also feel the OP here has too much of a record with the editor and may well have past encounters over shadow their view. Christians editors are very much like Gay editors. They have to remember that not everyone is Christian and that being an openly declared Christian or gay editor does not mean others cannot comment on what bias they may be perceiving. To me this filing is a lot like one bias against another. I do agree that Hilo only endangers their own editing privileges when they focus on others and not the content.--Maleko Mela (talk) 18:50, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

This might be going off-tangent but I think it's a mistake to lump editors who share one characteristic in common as acting in a similar way. For one thing, most editors do not have userboxes on the User page declaring their personal identification so it is very likely that the majority of Christian, atheist or gay editors do not "mark" themselves as belonging to that particular group. So, any generalities one makes is based on encounters one has with a small subset of any particular demographic group. And, as sociology shows, there is usually more variation among members of one group than between members of different groups. Liz 19:30, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

I think I follow what you are saying, just that in this case the editor has clearly decided to declare their affiliation and preference and are also very involved in editing, not just Christian articles, but other religious articles of different faiths. I trust their good faith, but that is not going to be the outcome or perception of everyone. The main reason we have these user boxes is for declaring your interests so that others can look at edits that are associated with the declaration. In the case of Hilo's comments, they don't appear to be generalizing but being a bit specific about the Christian interests of the declared editor. Sure, variations are going to occur, but here the issue seems to be that one editor feels attacked for their declaration and having it mentioned (far too many times perhaps). But the mention of one's close associations as declared are not the issue. The issue is the persistent and rude manner in which Hilo makes these comments and comes across as attacking the individual for the faith when, in fact, they may not be attacking but simply criticizing the editor over issues related to the subjects they edit. At any rate this does not appear to actually be a case where the editor is being attacked just because of their faith.--Maleko Mela (talk) 20:36, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has a much clearer definition of conflict of interest than it does for incivility. The former explicitly mentions religion as an area where it should be applied. For a long time I've been tying to work out why it simply isn't. The only conclusion I've come to is that it's obviously part of our systemic bias. HiLo48 (talk) 21:26, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

What part of COI applies here? Since you mention that the policy mentions religion, I'm guessing you're referring to WP:EXTERNALREL, but I'd like to be sure before I respond.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 21:43, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Section break (HiLo48)

(e/c) HiLo may not intend to be incivil or to hurt anyone with his comments, but intention is usually not the most important factor in such issues. The very fact that his name is well known in these parts, and usually not for the best of reasons, says that - putting the most positive blush on it - he is not aware of his own strength when it comes to a propensity for getting into hot water. It would be a sign of his good faith if he could come here and simply acknowledge that some editors have been hurt by his comments, whether or not he intended that hurt. That would be a good step. -- Jack of Oz 21:34, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

No. Intent is the very issue here not just accidently hurting someone's feelings. People get hurt over very straight forward civil remarks. Seriously. I had someone yell at me and then state on their user page that they were quitting Misplaced Pages over a comment I made about what I perceived in a suggestion they made during a dispute on the Homosexuality article. There was no attack on them and was speaking directly about the suggestion they made about the content. They blew up and accused me of a number of things that were really off base. If we were to start issuing sanctions and warnings over the hurt feelings of others.....there would be no one left to edit the encyclopedia.--Maleko Mela (talk) 21:48, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

That is not a good parallel, Mark. You are talking about one user being offended by your comments and you view them as being unreasonable. It's much different when multiple editors are having the same kind of negative encounters with a single editor that revolve around the same diatribe of how lousy and biased Christianity is. If several editors are having abrasive experiences with another editor, you shouldn't fault them for being easily hurt. The difference is that your example was a solitary incident, there are not a lot of people saying they are quitting Misplaced Pages over your comments. That's not the case in this complaint. Liz 22:16, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

OK, one-off incidents like that will happen. But HiLo is not part of any one-off incident; there's been a whole swag of them involving him at the receiving end of criticism. I read this page from time to time , and I don't recall ever seeing HiLo say words to the effect of "I wasn't out to hurt anyone, I was just telling it like it is. I'm sorry if I hurt people, and I'll try in future to word my remarks and make my points in a less personally hurtful way". -- Jack of Oz 22:11, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

People in the past got upset with my swearing. (In some cases I didn't even regard what I said as swearing, but whatever.) I don't swear here now. Or at least I try not to. It's obvious that the linguistic environment in which I live and work is one that many here would find unacceptable. Swearing is simply part of normal discourse. I now put a lot of effort into trying tot use a form of language that doesn't come naturally. But this isn't about swearing. Also, several people who have brought complaints about me here are no longer with us on Misplaced Pages. (Boomerangs fly in unusual ways.) Their complaints were never valid. This is why I have concerns about AN/I being primarily a place where old mud can be thrown again and again and again. HiLo48 (talk) 22:35, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

My concern is that the comments having a chilling effect on participation. When someone is constantly making slightly uncivil comments that appear to have a particular bias, yet they each slide under the block radar, neutrality dies a death by a thousand cuts. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:12, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

This is what makes the most sense to me. Little cuts that are constant can cause a great loss over time. Hilo has to stop discussing the editors. Seriously. The point here is that if one cannot stick to discussing the content they just set themselves up to be perceived as having even more bias than the one they are discussing.--Maleko Mela (talk) 22:42, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Does not the same apply to the problem created by the fact that our articles on religious topics naturally attract a majority of editors who are adherents of those religions, some of whom cannot help applying their inevitable biases in favour of those religions? Our systemic bias means that Christianity will be the religion with the biggest problem of that kind. Neutrality died long ago on some of those articles. HiLo48 (talk) 22:35, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Unquestionably, that is a concern and having editors who are skeptics/other to participate in those articles can be highly beneficial to our goals of neutrality. That only works, however, if the editors are commenting about the merits and not about each other. You are a very experienced editor, but Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement (shown right) comes to mind. Personally, I still refer to it regularly to remind me to stay on the merits. I haven't questioned your ability or intent, only your methods. I understand it gets frustrating at times (which might indicate it is time to edit something less contentious for a day or two), but you have to see why I'm concerned, and why it looks like bias to others. You can't correct someone's bias by being equally biased in the opposite direction. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:45, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Like I think this hits the nail squarely on the head.--Maleko Mela (talk) 22:51, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

• HiLo48's incivility is unacceptable. You could replace the word "Christian" with any religion or ideology and the problem would still remain. And, in any case, the criticism he presents has nothing to do with religion but with politics. I would like to see him given a final warning and told that if he does it again he will face a long block. Viriditas (talk) 22:21, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Define "incivility". HiLo48 (talk) 22:35, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Sure. Incivility is the opposite of what you think it is. Viriditas (talk) 22:40, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Let's face it Hilo, you cannot attempt to right the wrongs that you perceive. We are simply not here as editors for that. You should really disengage from these topics voluntarily for a while because whether you agree or not, this will only lead to either a topic ban (which sounds more and more appropriate here) or worse, a block. I think admin has been very patient with you. At some point the patience is going to wear off.--Maleko Mela (talk) 22:48, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

I have plenty of other things to do, and probably will pay less heed to the disaster area of our religious articles for a while. I'd just like to see some independent, rational responses to the attacks on me in the initial post in this thread. Let's look at the second point in that litany of alleged sins. My apparent sin began with he words "Silly comment", and it was. I won't ever apologise for that kind of post. Several of the other evils I have apparently committed fall into the same category. If other editors post rubbish, I will point it out. Sorry about that. So what will be done about the falsehoods and silly allegations that have been written about me here? HiLo48 (talk) 23:08, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

That is actually pretty simple. I am sure more than a few editors have taken note of the fact that an allegation was made against another editor that was never properly demonstrated. In other words, the OP made a complaint that another editor was attacking them based solely on their religious beliefs. That was too strong an accusation for this case/filing. But you can let it go now. A boomerang is also unlikely.--Maleko Mela (talk) 23:54, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Why? False allegations were made against me. Crap posted at AN/I is part of what makes it a disaster area. The last person to bring me here is now on an indefinite block, but the fact that my name was brought here is still part of the evidence brought against me this time! And so will this be, and most of the allegations are absolute rubbish. There MUST be some consequence. HiLo48 (talk) 00:10, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you're mistaking me (the OP) with St. A, but I never claimed HiLo's comments were directed myself. I merely said he was directing them at Christian editors in general (of which I am one). I even specifically said in my original statement that I've had lengthy record with HiLo, but none of the comments were directed at me.

As for my complaint, I think it's obvious every editor here agrees that HiLo's comments have crossed a line. So I'm not sure why you're saying my allegation was never properly demonstrated. Even you Mark/Maleko wrote that "Hilo has to stop discussing the editors. Seriously. The point here is that if one cannot stick to discussing the content they just set themselves up to be perceived as having even more bias than the one they are discussing." Calidum 00:06, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

(EC) OK, I struck out the mistake, but you are clearly in the wrong in accusing another editor of attacking anyone based purely on religious faith or Christians in general and you are also wrong about EVERY editor feeing that Hilo's comments cross the line. I don't. I made it clear that in discussing the editor it opens the door for that perception, but I do doubt that simply being uncivil is a reason to complain as if anyone is being persecuted. That is seriously outrageous and you never demonstrated such. All you have are some comments that don't all cross a line of incivility.--Maleko Mela (talk) 00:18, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Okay, let me rephrase. A majority of commenters believe that HiLo has crossed a line, as I alleged in my complaint. Why you have chosen to defend him is beyond me, but don't pretend you're not in the minority here. Calidum 00:32, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

And there's some more of this crap. My concern was NEVER with Christian editors in general. It's with editors who openly proclaim their Christianity, and then, at least in my eyes, post in a way that shows more concern with promoting Christian views than creating a great, impartial encyclopaedia. Please retract the falsehood. HiLo48 (talk) 00:15, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I suggest this thread be closed as it is likely to spin out of control pretty soon.--Maleko Mela (talk) 00:20, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

When do I see consequences for falsehoods written about me? Or does such crap again stay on AN/I forever? If it does, how do you guys expect me to treat the editors responsible nicely in future? I still believe what I said was true, even if some didn't like it. What has been said about me is simply not true. (Although I expect that here.) HiLo48 (talk) 00:23, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

• The only spinning I see is by HiLo and Mark. The fact remains that HiLo's summaries ARE problematic, and it would be helpful if he took the advice given here to heart, as that is the easiest path to resolving the concerns. The OP isn't blocked, I have no idea where you got that idea. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:32, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

What? HiLo48 (talk) 00:49, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

(ec)Well excuse me. I am not spinning the fact that this thread was an accusation made against an editor that was never demonstrated to be accurate. It accused Hilo of attacking Christians in general. If you feel that much has been proven than why are you waiting? You have the power to block. The only reason I even intervened here is because this is about one editor feeling others are being persecuted for their faith and this is absolutely a false charge never shown to be accurate. I also have no idea what you are talking about when you say "The OP isn't blocked". I don't remember that being an issue? Also, I should mention that Hilo is not one of my friends on Misplaced Pages and that I am actually arguing with those I do consider to be friends. In other words...I have no particular opinion for or against Hilo. my opinion is based on the OP complaining about something I do not see.--Maleko Mela (talk) 00:52, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Spinning as in making HiLo out to be a victim here. I respect your difference in interpretation in his comments, but I have to use my own. As I've said, the edits are problematic, interpreting them for myself. That I'm not "block-happy" and prefer calm solutions is far from a secret. They are personal in nature, they twist the knife in a way that gives the appearance of a religious bias, whether it is intentional or not. I've already said this above more than once, that he needs to stick to the merits. I was hoping for an acknowledgement of such, but disappointed when it looked like it was being spun around into him being a victim. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:02, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

(ec) So, as you can see your words and interpretations of what I am doing is insulting and offensive to me, and I know it was not your intent. No, I am not trying to make Hilo the victim, but at the same time I will not allow someone (anyone) to be accused of such a vile thing without CLEAR evidence. There is no clear evidence. I have already agreed with you above but my point in requesting the closure of this thread is that is has gained no consensus to the ORIGINAL complaint, that Hilo was attacking Christians in general. If that is how you interpret making Hilo the victim then perhaps you are reading more into my words and comments than are really there. If you are readfing my comments Dennis I am sure you would see that I agree with you that Hilo should "Stick to the merits". I used the wording that he should discuss the content and not the contributor and that by doing so it opens the door to the perception of attacks, but I really don't see this as an attack as I have seen these same discussions replacing "Christian" with "gay" and to me that seems like a double standard if it is OK to discuss gay editors in this manner but not Christians. As for making a victim, the OP seemed to be doing that not me.--Maleko Mela (talk) 01:22, 27 April 2014 (UTC)--Maleko Mela (talk) 01:22, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

It isn't ok to discuss gay editors in the same manner, but that kind of falls indirectly under the logic of WP:WAX, so it can't be used to justify singling out any group. I was just hoping to get the point across so I don't have to propose a topic ban in the future. It wasn't about consensus as much as understanding. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:33, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree with you in more than spirit as I have also suggested a topic ban may well be appropriate here, but I see these types of things happen all the time. I don't think singling out any one for their declarations as appropriate, but to me many of the comments were not singling out someone out for that alone, but for their edits. Much like another editor here did to me when I mentioned my being gay, they then singled out that mention to use against me in this argument. That didn't offend me or make me feel I was being "singled out" just for being gay...I declared it as part of the discussion. That is very much what I see happened here. It also doesn't help that the editor this centers around, StAnselm is very active in the areas they have declared as being a part of. So, yes, bias is a factor here and in many ways I agree with Hilo.......just not in the persistence. That goes beyond how I work, or what I tend to agree with as I generally disengage and find great relief in such.--Maleko Mela (talk) 01:58, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

If I had singled out a group, your comment might be valid. It's not. My criticism was of individuals. The OP has sucked you in. I do feel like the victim here now. But that's normal here at AN/I. Given tat you seem to be basing your demands of me on some content that wasn't true, it's rather difficult for me to agree to anything at this stage. HiLo48 (talk) 01:44, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I tend to find that Dennis doesn't get "sucked in" by things on this board. What he and other admin do (and even I tend to) is give as much rope as possible. You might not want to grab hold of that rope.--Maleko Mela (talk) 01:58, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

And do what? I truly have no idea what is being asked of me. It cannot be to never do all that was listed in that first post. HiLo48 (talk) 02:15, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I must now point out that, rather than help answer that question, Dennis chose to find further fault with me down below. He isn't trying to resolve this. HiLo48 (talk) 03:11, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

The claim that you didn't single out a "group" holds no water. This edit and the phrase "I'm not sure what they think their god will do to them if they allow Misplaced Pages to do it job properly and fairly." is unnecessarily offensive to more than one person, and was directed at more than one person. I can break them all down but I shouldn't have to, this one I just picked at random. The point is, when your edits are disruptive, your motivation isn't my first concern. I only care about keeping the playing field level, keeping the articles neutral, and keeping the peace, all while using the least amount of tools. Above, I've shown you specifically how to avoid future problems, with the bonus of it making you more persuasive in discussion. Ignore it, or put it to good use, the choice is yours. If you can't understand it, I can't help, as I've explained it as much as I know how already. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 10:21 pm, Today (UTC−4)

Oh, I suppose that was about a group, but a very small one (obviously not all Christians), and I still believe in what I said. I am struggling to see the offence in it. But I am happy to learn about cultures different from mine, where active, even confrontational discussion of religious values is very common. Please explain. HiLo48 (talk) 03:09, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

You went straight to the heart of their belief system by suggesting that "their god" would or would not do something based on the edits here at Misplaced Pages. That is the line that was crossed there. I don't see that as an attack, but as a very inappropriate criticism of both their beliefs and their deity. I have seen this before and many times it gets pushed to the side or just ignored but I myself have made a point about others criticizing other beliefs or those held as holy. Surely you didn't expect that to go over well.--Maleko Mela (talk) 03:18, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I certainly wanted them to think about what they were doing. I don't believe it was very ethical. HiLo48 (talk) 03:24, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Then you need to review: Misplaced Pages:Do not disrupt Misplaced Pages to illustrate a point: "If you simply disagree with someone's actions in an article, discuss it on the article talk page or related pages. If mere discussion fails to resolve a problem, look into dispute resolution.".--Maleko Mela (talk) 03:43, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

We WERE on Talk pages. I see little point in taking it further. HiLo48 (talk) 07:37, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

• I'm sad to see this, as I've found HiLo active and fairly constructive on WP:ITN. To my mind, the most problematic diff is the first one listed at the start of this notice; HiLo cannot assume good faith on the sole ground that the other editor is a Christian editing an article on the Genesis creation narrative. That's out of line, in my view. GoldenRing (talk) 14:14, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

That deserves a response. It wasn't just the fact that the other editor is a Christian that was the problem. That would never be a problem on its own. I work with a lot of very religious people, who are very happy to join in vigorous discussions on their faith, and its conflicts with the rational world. What we had here was an editor who had loudly proclaimed his Christianity declaring that a word that treated Christianity differently from other religions was neutral, and that he had seen no compelling argument to convince him otherwise. I still feel, as I said in that post, that no argument would compel him to see otherwise. HiLo48 (talk) 08:18, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

That may be what you were thinking, but it is not what you said; you can't expect us to read your mind, only your words. "This is an area where I cannot assume good faith" seems pretty clear-cut, and if it's not what you meant then you should retract it and apologise. GoldenRing (talk) 10:23, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

No point in retracting. I still believe what I said. I cannot assume good faith with such an editor. All the evidence points in the opposite direction. I have explained why above. I'm not very good at pretending to believe something I don't believe, such as saying I assume good faith, when I don't. Did that sort of pretending for a while with the church I was once part of, then, for my own sanity, I had to come true to myself. HiLo48 (talk) 11:03, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

This is starting to go in circles a bit. If you still believe what you said then I think there's a problem; you didn't say that you couldn't assume good faith with that editor, but in that area. What your personal standards may be are more or less irrelevant here; the community has standards that it expects editors to adhere to, and one of them is WP:AGF. It's not something you get to opt out of because you find it difficult. If what you meant is that you couldn't assume good faith with that editor, then I think we'd have to see a considerably history of that editor acting in bad faith to think that was reasonable. I haven't looked into the editor's history but I have read the discussion in which you said this; it seemed to me to be in response to a reasonable, good-faith, policy-based argument. I'm not saying his argument is right, but acting in bad faith is different to being wrong, and very different to disagreeing with your ideas. GoldenRing (talk) 14:55, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

• It isn't about assuming good faith, after all, good faith isn't a suicide pact. It is about your actual words. Whether you meant them to be so abrasive or not, they are. No one is trying to change your mind, only your methods. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 15:38, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't believe those words would be seen as abrasive by most people in my culture. HiLo48 (talk) 22:07, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't know what culture you claim as you own, so I can't refute. It isn't really relevant anyway. The issue is how it comes across here at Misplaced Pages, not how it would come across at your local pub. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:10, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

HiLo has since the beginning claimed that what the community as a whole sees as flagrant incivility is perfectly acceptable for formal business communication in his native Australia. That this is plainly false would be better served by Misplaced Pages's resident apologists not continually taking it at face value. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 01:21, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

HiLo has never claimed what YOU claim in that post. Thank you for demonstrating one of the many appalling features of AN/I, in this case the ability of anyone to write whatever lies they like about someone they would like to get out of the way. In other words, to make personal attacks with no fear of negative consequences. And the community has never actually been able to agree on what incivility is, let alone a flagrant version of it. HiLo48 (talk) 07:52, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

I should point out, as the main recipient of HiLo's incivility this time around, that I am also Australian (as I indicate on my user page). StAnselm (talk) 01:27, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Looks to me like he's pointing out a perceived conflict of interest, per WP:EXTERNALREL. And it seems to me that he has a point. While some of the quotes above could certainly be framed in more civil terms, I find it hard to understand how (to take a single example) the assertion that Easter is not a generally observed holiday in Muslim countries, can reasonably be construed as a personal attack on Christians. Balaenoptera musculus (talk) 17:06, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

• I was so proud for ages of having fewer than 1000 edits to AN/I. Well that's long gone now. I've worked with HiLo48 since February on the Australian sports rules naming debate. You can see some of our interactions here. I've found him to be fiery, hard-working, intelligent and well-intentioned. I've occasionally had to warn him about "playing the man and not the ball", and this is something I can see he is working on. I've made it my business to scrutinise his history here and his block log, and I've acknowledged the input of User:Drmies. I think HiLo's a good guy. I think this was another incident where HiLo moved beyond intellectual argument about an encyclopaedia and started being too forthright about his own views of the motivation of others. It can be a difficult line to hold. User:Dennis Brown makes an excellent point about Graham's hierarchy of disagreement. It is one I have used in the past. It is good advice to all of us to always stay in the top three levels. I don't think this incident requires a block or other sanction, but I think it would be helpful if HiLo could acknowledge the concerns of others about these particular interactions. Not on CIVIL grounds but in the interests of the community moving on from this and of HiLo's own growth as a Wikipedian, that gesture would be appreciated. Whether or not he wishes to do this, I do not think there is traction here for any admin action. If others disagree, perhaps an RFC/U would be the next step? --John (talk) 22:59, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

  I am wanting 100%, exactly the same thing as you. The only action I want to see is on HiLo's part, but it is a choice he has to make. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:03, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

• I've stayed out of this since I've both chastised and defended HiLo in the past two years or so. I agree with John on many things, maybe all things, and with Dennis. I do think the ball is in HiLo's court in terms of improving relationships. I don't think admin action is necessary, or perhaps Thumperward's "resident apologists" comment is correct and no action will be taken--though that is really an offensive remark. RfC/U--I don't know. HiLo is so controversial that there isn't much chance for a very fruitful conversation, but maybe it's worth a shot. Drmies (talk) 23:12, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

• Well exactly. If I were to disagree with something either of you guys said, I'd be perfectly capable of saying I think that was a stupid idea, because..., and would aim to avoid discourse like These guys are stupid and biased, because... I would do this because (a) I know you are probably not stupid or biased and (b) if you were stupid or biased, you probably wouldn't think you were, and calling you out on it would probably not lead to the peaceful resolution we want. Can you subscribe to a similar protocol, User:HiLo48? --John (talk) 23:50, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Folks, what I saw, and won't apologise for describing, was editors who make very bold and clear declarations of their Christianity on their User pages, and even in their User names, editing on controversial matters that involve religion, in ways that matched precisely what someone pushing a Christian POV would do. There happen to be quite a lot of these Christian editors. It's part of Misplaced Pages's systemic bias. It's really hard to accept that none of those posts were POV pushing. That strange thing we're asked to do here, assume good faith, becomes very difficult to do in such situations. I've thought long and hard about that expression. Is someone whose life is built firmly and absolutely around strong Christian belief even going to be aware, when they push that POV in a wider circle than the one they're usually part of, that they actually are pushing a POV? Maybe for some the answer is "No". So maybe it IS good faith editing by them. But it's still POV pushing. And few of the other editors with a similar mindset will recognise it as such.

Now, we don't want POV pushing here, even if it's done in good faith. I'm still not convinced that there wasn't at least some conscious POV pushing among the overt Christians, but will it help for me to acknowledge that some of the editing I said was not good faith editing, WAS probably good faith editing?

I have fairly strong political opinions. I take pride in the fact that during the most recent US Presidential elections, and recent Australian elections, I was accused by editors from both sides of supporting the other side when I removed their POV changes to articles. We are all biased, but I work hard to be aware of my biases and keep them out of my editing. There are many others editors who I don't believe try to do this at all.

So, in my mind, there's still a big question. What do we do about good faith POV pushing from a body of editors who are strong here because of our systemic bias? HiLo48 (talk) 03:27, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

These are good questions and I share some of your concerns. However, this section is about your behaviour. I appreciate your concession that some of the editing you complained about was probably good faith editing. I would still like you to outline how this realisation will affect your editing going forward, and to demonstrate such changes. If there is not some change I fear you will be brought back here again and again and will experience editing restrictions the next time, something I would be sad to see. Would that be possible? --John (talk) 13:31, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

@HiLo48:, honestly, I would try to not lean in the opposite direction, so I don't look just as biased as they are, just in a different direction. I think when faced with bias, you have to take extra measures to stay as neutral as possible. Then, the one sided nature of the problem is obvious to all outsiders. It is kind of like when two editors get into a fight here. If they both are calling each other rude names, it is a draw, and whoever started it and instigated the problem becomes moot. Put another way: when dealing with bias, you are either part of the problem, or part of the solution. If you use a different bias to counteract the first bias (or just sound like you are), then you are part of the problem. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 18:01, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

As I said above, I think I now recognise most of my own biases, and I try hard to stop them influencing my editing. Do you think it's worth trying to get such possibly good faith but still unconsciously POV pushing, Christian editors to recognise how their editing appears to be very similar to what they would say if they were deliberately POV pushing? Because that is the biggest problem in those discussions. While perhaps meaning well, such editors add little constructive to conversations because their contributions are instantly questioned as suspicious by others. The extensive hidden conversations below show that I am certainly not alone in that view. I would perhaps use words like "I can accept that as a good faith post, but can you see that it is very similar to what someone with something similar to your public self declaration of Christianity would say if they were deliberately pushing a POV?"

I don't know. I think the main thing is avoiding absolutes in your statements, and avoid comments about their motives. I get it that AGF isn't a suicide pact, but what matter most is NPOV, not why someone made an edit that isn't NPOV. In the end, good faith vs. pushing an agenda doesn't change the edit itself, unless it is part of a longer term pattern that needs admin attention. Going the extra mile to avoid personal observations really makes it easier for outsiders to see who is and isn't biased. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:31, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Sorry. I have no idea what you're saying with that post. Maybe the clichés don't translate well. HiLo48 (talk) 04:03, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose any sanction I am in general agreement with Mark. I don't see HiLo as a attacking Christians as such. Rather he seems to be attempting to raise legitimate concerns about bias, perhaps in some cases in a ill-advised manner. I am mystified by some of the supposedly problematic diffs: how, for instance, is it attacking Christians to point out that particular statements are ignoring non-Christian countries such as China and India? Neljack (talk) 23:43, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

It's attacking christians if you're simply dismissing someone's edit out of hand because you think they're a christian. Let's not forget that Hilo has a long history of this Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive821#HiLo48_at_Talk:2014_Winter_Olympics, detailed list midway through, and the community has a long history of simply washing their hands of it.There is an on-going unchanging pattern of behaviour here and sticking your head in the sand and pretending it doesn't exist does a disservice to the community as a whole.--211.215.156.184 (talk) 05:24, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Oh dear. What's the point of re-posting an old allegation that was thrown right out of court? That's another problem here. No guilt was found, yet you raise it again. AN/I is a disaster area. It should be renamed "Write whatever attacks you like on the accused. You don't need evidence, just prejudice. No harm will ever come to you." I DO annoy POV pushers by calling them on that behaviour. And I will continue to do both, I suspect. That means many of them would like get rid of me. Some aren't very good at it. HiLo48 (talk) 05:43, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

It being 'thrown right out of court' is part of the pattern of behaviour. The other point in posting it was for the links also included in that post. The need you feel to label people and use it as a pejorative to dismiss them is indicative of the behaviour issues you have here. Thank you for proving my point with your latest reply.--211.215.156.184 (talk) 10:01, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

The simple fact is that it WAS thrown out of court. Raising it again here just shows that you have a problem with Misplaced Pages procedures. So do I, as a matter of fact, but your post proves nothing about my behaviour. It proves more about how hard some people will work to get rid of someone who stands in the way of POV pushers. HiLo48 (talk) 12:07, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Can an Administrator please put this thread out of its misery? When it descends to IP editors who hate me dredging up pointless nonsense from the past, it's proving nothing, like much of what happens here. I know from experience that those who are attacking me in bad faith won't be punished, but can it please at least be stopped now? Otherwise all the unfounded allegations will again be dredged up some time in the future as proof that I'm the devil incarnate. HiLo48 (talk) 12:14, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Did you know that "Jesus Christ is Risen Today"?

User:Volunteer Marek inserting POV-slanted original research in ukraine topics

Volunteer Marek has been going around the articles relating to the Ukrainian crisis inserting original research and completely made up things supporting his POV while reverting any efforts to change the statements to actually represent what the sources say, while deceptively claiming in his edit summaries that he is removing "misrepresentations" and "original research".

One example is the Euromaidan article where i had removed the claim that "some of the snipers were not allowed to shoot" for not being supported, nor even mentioned, in any of the sources. Besides being original research, the statement made it seem as if only those who were not allowed to shoot were surprised by those who were (ie implying that Janukovich snipers were allowed to shoot and were the ones doing it, something completely unsupported by the sources). However, since such a wording, and made-up stuff, fits his POV he immediately reinserted that claim.

Another example is from 2014 Crimean Crisis where i had removed a whole bunch of claims unsupported by the source . As anyone can see the source does not say anything about any "ukrainian officials", "Refat Chubarov", it being "undemocratic", "hastily prepared", "falsified" or "not reflecting the real will of the Crimeans". However, since the claims made it appear as if there is a widespread belief that only 40% participated and that the referendum was falsified, rather than just one man's speculations about how many participants there could have been given turnouts in earlier elections, which perfectly fits Marek's POV, he promptly reinserted the original research.B01010100 (talk) 22:34, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

This is sour grapes over the fact that I filed a report on User:B01010100 for edit warring ( - s/he got blocked then block was reduced after B01010100 promised to behave, which appears to have been an empty promise) and had the temerity to point out that it's a sketchy-as-hell single purpose account who's arrived recently (?) on Misplaced Pages for the sole purpose of engagin in some good ol' fashioned WP:BATTLEGROUND.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:39, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

No, this is over the fact that i'm constantly working to fact-check sources and rewriting the articles to more accurately present the sources but you constantly reverting and reinserting OR for no other reason than that it fits your POV. Besides, even if it were sour grapes, i'll just refer you to Ad Hominem.B01010100 (talk) 22:58, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

I fail to see how Marek's contributions are in any way controversial, and am going to have to side with them in this regard. If you guys have a dispute, work it out at Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution, but I am not seeing anything here that is concerning, especially when one looks at B01010100's talk page. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 02:20, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree. B01010100 needs to stop focusing on Volunteer Marek, and start concentrating on ensuring his own contributions are not becoming problematic. Coming here each time he perceives an issue is not going to go down well. If there is in fact a dispute, a conflict or some grievance about Volunteer Marek which needs to be addressed, the appropriate thing to do is utilise dispute resolution. Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:17, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I find Volunteer Marek's edits so much POV that it's very difficult to keep assuming good faith. I don't want to look non-neutral, but, frankly saying, I am beginning to think his aim is to add as many anti-Russian stuff as possible and to remove as many pro-Russian stuff as possible. (I'm not trying to deliberately attack him, but I just want to say what I am actually beginning to think after seeing his edits on the Ukraine crisis-related stuff.) IMO his edits can seriously upset any editor who tries to be neutral. And he keeps pushing them in, keeps reverting people who try to stop him. I seriously hope some admin takes a closer look at Volunter Marek's editing patterns. Just look at his edits and think, "1. Did he add something against Euromaidan or something good about Yanukovich or Russia just once. Did he? 2. Why does he like to call people who are against Euromaidan nazis: , , , ? (It's, like, the first thing he does in any article.)" --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:44, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

• It is difficult to take seriously allegations of POV pushing from an editor whose username is "Moscow Connection". BMK (talk) 16:17, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

You mean that's beyond your ken? See how easy it is to do stuff like that, so how about focusing on content rather than usernames?B01010100 (talk) 20:55, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Admins will see this Volunteer Marek's edit: . Admins, please, just think, "What does the editor actually do on Misplaced Pages? Are all of his edits look somehow the same? Is it someone who actually expands Misplaced Pages, who writes good articles, who actually wants to make Misplaced Pages a better encyclopedia?" --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:58, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

It is pretty clear that you guys are warring over the Euromaiden/Ukraine issue and are dragging the drama here. Neither side is in the right here in terms of attacks, but the dispute resolution page is probably the best bet for this discussion, as both sides have rather strong opinions here. Moscow Connection, I think you are going in the right direction, but this isn't the place to do it. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 22:54, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

It is somewhat hard not to focus on someone who keeps following you around reverting your edits while simply refusing to even read the sources (User:Lvivske goes so far as explicitly defending his practice of not reading the sources before reverting), or the talk pages. There were existing talk page discussions regarding exactly those changes, but does he follow the consensus there or even read them? No. If there is nothing controversial about making edits going against the talk page discussions, then why do we have talk pages in the first place? You say to take it to dispute resolution, but WP:CONDUCTDISPUTE says to go here, which is why i went here. Where exactly should this be taken then? The issue isn't any particular instance of his edits, but the entire underlying pattern of behaviour, which seems like a conduct dispute to me and hence why i took it here. At this time there is simply no point in making any contributions since if they don't fit his POV they'll just get reverted again irrespective of what the sources may or may not say.B01010100 (talk) 15:38, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Please don't put words in my mouth. In what you quoted I specifically talked about fact checking, just that its safe to assume if a portion of your sources are junk then the rest likely are too, especially if it's an IP or SP account --Львівське (говорити) 18:31, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

When an editor deliberately introduces text complete with citations and the citations do not support the text, the citations are fake. If an editor has the habit of using fake citations, then it is not very surprising if people check-by-sampling, and revert all the untrustworthy edits as vandalism.--Toddy1 (talk) 18:43, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Except that's not what has been going on. The editor who first removed the text did not introduce any text, and hence did not introduce fake citations, he removed them. This was only his second edit, so he couldn't have had a habit of such things (his first edit was adding a source to a quotation to comply with WP:BLP). Volunteer Marek then reintroduced the fake citations, even though it should be BRD rather than BRR, giving as reason in his edit summary "restore sourced text" even though he obviously didn't even read the source for the text he was introducing. The only thing going against the edit he reverted was that it was made by an IP-user who happened to be based in Russia. Rather than reverting again i rewrote the text to remove the parts that were not in the source and more accurately represent the source (and subsequent edits), as well as using the talk page to discuss those changes. Volunteer Marek then simply introduced the fake citations again, completely ignoring both the talk page discussion and the call to read the source first. It seems, to me, that if anyone is making a habit of using fake citations it would be Volunteer Marek. And it's not like this is an isolated incident, it's a general pattern.B01010100 (talk) 21:32, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I apologize if i have misinterpreted your linked comment, but in the context of the discussion where you made that comment it was Volunteer Marek who kept introducing text not supported by the source by reverting the editor who, rightfully, removed it - thereby showing that he obviously didn't even read the source for the text he kept introducing. It was for that i called him out on blanket reverting others without even reading the sources, which you responded to as sometimes being appropriate. I realize now that i have misinterpreted your comment to some degree, but i presume you can understand the misunderstanding given the context.B01010100 (talk) 21:32, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I would like to draw attention at these edits, which introduce Reductio ad Hitlerum-linked car analogy, in violation of WP:SEEALSO (which demands that "The links in the "See also" section should be relevant"). Nazi/Soviet events of 1938 and 1940 aren't related to modern Crimean events. Seryo93 (talk) 05:40, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

"Those who fail to remember history are condemned to repeat it." BMK (talk) 17:49, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

We may add those parallels as attributed (such as in Reactions section), I won't oppose that. But not in See also. And BTW, quote above can be likewise applied to NATO expansion towards RF borders. "Those who fail to remember history...", so I suggest to avoid WP:SOAPBOXing (which, I admitt that, coming from both sides of 2014 crisis) Seryo93 (talk). 06:46, 1 May 2014 (UTC) Updated 08:59, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

NATO? NATO hasn't expanded since 2009, and Ukraine disavowed any intent to join in 2010. I believe the current brouhaha originated over Ukraine wanting closer ties to the EU, a non-military association. And in any case, if the Santayana quote draws attention to parallels between Germany's actions prior to WWII and Russia's current actions, what is the parallel you're drawing between Ukraine's associations with NATO and the EU and the situation back then? I see none.

Putin seems stuck in the age-old Russian desire to keep a buffer between itself and Europe, either by the conquests which created the Russian Empire, or Stalin's creation of puppet states after WWII. This need for "security" at the expense of the independence of other countries appears to be a long-established part of hard-line Russian thinking. Failing to point out those obvious facts (through citations from reliable sources, of course) would do a disservice to our readers. BMK (talk) 16:14, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Non-military? Please get your facts straight. The parallel would be the expansion of a hostile military bloc eastwards in violation of the relevant agreement with Russia on that, just like another hostile military bloc's eastwards expansion in WWII. That's the issue with inventing Nazi analogies in wikipedia articles, all you do is open a can of worms.B01010100 (talk) 20:35, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm not (and in fact never, you can see this from my post before!) objected to carefully attributed parallels (look at 2014 Crimean crisis#Commentary for examples). About NATO: I've meant expansion since fall of USSR, which Russia - country, that dissolved its own NATO - views as a hostile encirclement (see also Cordon sanitaire). Either way, parallels can be found for anything. Seryo93 (talk) 17:46, 1 May 2014 (UTC) Upd: 17:49, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Please don't change the contents of a comment after it's been responded to. IN this case it makes my response look provocative, instead of responsive to yours. BMK (talk) 18:40, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Ok, sorry. Seryo93 (talk) 06:21, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

The Warsaw Pact dissolved itself, and the Soviet Union really didn't have any choice in the matter, so there's no reason to give them props for that And what of the Collective Security Treaty Organisation that succeeded it? That Russia is now less powerful than the old Soviet Union was is a fact of life, and certainly fuels the Russian paranoia and loss of self-respect that appear to be part of Putin's motivations - but, here again, the rebuilding of Germany's self-regard was one of the factors that entered into the provocation of WWII, and, again, the Santayana quote is pertinent. No one is saying, I don't think, that the situations are exactly the same, but one rarely comes across two world-historical circumstances that are so closely paralleled as these two are. BMK (talk) 18:18, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

See here (remark about Gorby claims - but this is logical consequence of "unwritten promise"). Anyway, I'm not opposed to statement that "Many compared X to Y...", as in 2014 Crisis commentary section. Seryo93 (talk) 06:24, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Sharing a POV is not an excuse to have it included where it obviously doesn't belong.B01010100 (talk) 14:58, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

B01010100, Seryo93, Petr Matas: I suggest you look into this: .
(I'm not sure, but it looks like the person (under a different account name) has already been banned from the Eastern European topics for participation in a coordinated anti-Russian campain on Misplaced Pages. As I understand, the edit I linked suggests going to WP:AE to enforce the decision. --Moscow Connection (talk) 14:32, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

The original case can be found here (the old user name is Radeksz). The topic ban was for a year but has been rescinded by motion , and even if it wasn't rescinded it would've passed now anyway. So there isn't anything to enforce at this time, however point 4 of the motion should be relevant.B01010100 (talk) 14:58, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

@B01010100: Where is this point 4? Could you provide a link? (By the way, I probably won't be able to do anything myself, but I want to help other editors who might want to do something about the problem.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moscow Connection (talk • contribs) 11:54, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

I believe that he meant the 4th supporting vote of this motion. — Petr Matas 16:37, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

It is very easy to get caught in edit warring with VM, it happened to me as well. You have to be very careful. It is also useful to focus on one thing at a time in the discussion. — Petr Matas 16:37, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

That's hardly suprising, edit warring is after all one of his proclaimed methods to keep the content the way he likes it..B01010100 (talk) 20:48, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

This still going on? Guys, as flattered as I am to be the subject of your discussion, you do realize that you are basically talking to yourselves? The uninvolved editors, Ktr101 , Ncmvocalist, BMK and a few others, commented above and I think that's pretty much all there is to say. So how about closing this and the few of you that have axes to grind behave yourself in the future? Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:21, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Questionable comments by User:JohnValeron

Hiya, earlier this month, User:JohnValeron promised to check all of my edits; he stated: As far as I am concerned, you have zero credibility as a Misplaced Pages editor, and I shall henceforth independently confirm and where appropriate challenge whatever you contribute to this article. This comment was made due to a soon-to-be-explained misunderstanding, as well as his lack of knowledge about what is contained in RS regarding the subject matter.

My edits are followed so closely that yesterday I was unable to fix my edits as I developed a new section, running into 3 edit conflicts as he somewhat frantically made changes to the work seconds after I hit "save page". I asked him to give me some space, due to the edit conflicts, to which he replied Truthfully, Petrarchan47, as an editor you are a butcher. If you'd do a half-decent job I wouldn't have to correct so much...In my experience at Misplaced Pages, your ineptitude is singular.

In my experience at WP, small technical errors like those he pointed out are fixed quietly by others, or discovered quickly by the offending editor. Usually when I add new content, it takes a few edits to get all the glitches out. I've never been faulted for this before, let alone called inept. Regarding the drama and various issues he brought to the Snowden talk page yesterday, today he does not seem keen to explain himself, saying he "doesn't respond well to badgering". He does not engage on his talk page, either.

He has also made a comment about "our Hong Kong editor" but will not explain who he is speaking of, how he knows this editor's location nor why he is bringing this information to the talk page.

(Quick history: the Snowden page has been quite a hotbed of edit warring since December. John Valeron came in about half-way through and we don't actually have much history between us, so I am not sure where this level of hostility is coming from.) petrarchan47tc 04:18, 27 April 2014 (UTC) (*edited at 5:17)

• Another questionable comment was added today in the "quid pro quo" section below: the most unethical editor I have ever encountered. This outrageous claim was apparently based on the fact that I thought the date was May 2cd rather than the 4th. petrarchan47tc 07:56, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

It is 100% unacceptable to refer to someone as "a butcher" or "your ineptitude" - no matter the quality of your edits (which, by the way, you need to use the "Show Preview" button a little more in order to avoid issues because they are somewhat poor). There is also a fine line between validly using the "show contributions" of another editor, and wikistalking - and John appears to be on the wrong side of that line the panda ₯’ 14:16, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback. Because this will be likely used against me in the future, would you consider amending your comment to reflect whether you checked a selection of my edits, or as I assume, is your comment ("somewhat poor") referring only to this one section/incident? I accept that it may have been an off-day, and there were more glitches than usual, however, one could interpret your comment as a general statement about my editing, so I just wanted to clarify this. petrarchan47tc 22:59, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

DangerousPanda, I appreciate your input, but please let me provide some background. Although Petrarchan47's preceding post describes the page Edward Snowden as "a hotbed of edit warring since December," she has lately attempted to sanitize her own central role in these hostilities by portraying herself as having "sought peace over all else for the last few months." However, as I replied to her post three days ago, "The notion that you are a peacemaker at the Edward Snowden article or its Talk page is preposterous. You are resolutely proprietary and consistently combative." An unbiased review of the Snowden edit history will bear me out. Day in and day out, Petrarchan47 makes war, not peace.

Petrarchan47 acknowledges that she and I "don't actually have much history between us," which is true. But the sinkhole of her edit warring, evidenced by frequently and peremptorily reverting particular editors' contributions, eventually sucked me in. In the heat of anger, I lashed out, calling her a butcher and castigating her ineptitude. For that I am sorry. I apologize to Petrarchan47 and to the entire Misplaced Pages editorial community. I will henceforth strive to keep my temper in check.

But, DangerousPanda, you are totally wrong in endorsing Petrarchan47's unfounded and offensive accusation against me for Wikihounding. The facts are these:

• 5 June 2013 – Snowden/NSA story explodes in worldwide news media.

• 00:38, 10 June 2013 – just five days later, I post my first edit to Misplaced Pages's Snowden page.

• 14 April 2014 – The Washington Post and The Guardian are jointly awarded the 2014 Pulitzer Prize for Public Service for coverage of the Snowden/NSA scandal.

• 17:10, 20 April 2014 – six days later, having noticed comments in online social media mistakenly asserting that Glenn Greenwald won this prize—which is awarded to news organizations, not to individual journalists—I became curious as to whether or not Misplaced Pages's editors had recognized that distinction. Visiting the Greenwald page, I discovered otherwise, and posted appropriate edits to clarify the matter.

• 17:14, 20 April 2014 – after finishing my Greenwald edits, I proceeded immediately to the Misplaced Pages page for Laura Poitras, Greenwald's closest collaborator in the Snowden saga, where I executed similar edits to clarify that Poitras, like Greenwald, did not personally win the Pulitzer prize.

• 20:36, 21 April 2014 – I likewise edited the Misplaced Pages page for Ewen MacAskill, a British journalist who also collaborated with Greenwald & Poitras on the early Snowden reporting.

My editing of the respective Misplaced Pages page for each of three journalists closely associated with covering the Snowden scandal was a natural outgrowth of my longstanding interest in Snowden, dating back to 10 June 2013.

Yet Petrarchan47 now smears me with a spurious charge of Wikihounding for doing something innocuous and purely coincidental to her own contributions to two of those three pages. (She has never edited the MacAskill page.)

This, DangerousPanda, is 100% unacceptable. I am not guilty of Wikihounding, and you are wrong to say so. JohnValeron (talk) 17:40, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

You say you're not guilty of wikihounding, but right here, in this very thread, you accuse Petrarchan of "making war, not peace" and referring casually to "the sinkhole of her edit warring, evidenced by frequently and peremptorily reverting particular editors' contributions" for which you provide no evidence. An apology is nice, but you undermine the presumption in your good faith by making such statements. Coretheapple (talk) 19:10, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Coretheapple, please advise: what evidence would you accept of Petrarchan47's edit warring since June 9, 2013, when she first graced Misplaced Pages's Edward Snowden page? As I wrote above, "An unbiased review of the Snowden edit history will bear me out." Did you bother to familiarize yourself with that history before pronouncing me guilty of Wikihounding? Given the quickness of your response here, and considering the large volume of edits to that page over the past eleven months, I seriously doubt it. JohnValeron (talk) 19:51, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

So your position is that people commenting on ANI threads have the burden of proving the allegations made in them, whereas the people who make those allegations don't? They can just make accusations without a shred of evidence (such as a history of edit warring blocks, which Petrarchan doesn't have, not even one)? That's a new one. Coretheapple (talk) 19:59, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Coretheapple, as a first stab at submitting the evidence you demand, I found three pertinent comments by user DrFleischman, posted earlier this year at User talk:Petrarchan47, relating specifically to Petrarchan47's unfounded accusations of POV pushing at the Edward Snowden page (emphasis added):

• I believe that Petrarchan truly does feel "batted around" but that is not a reason for him/her to accuse me of "high school girl behavior" and being here to "play games" rather than to "write articles." And this is just the tip of the iceberg. If you follow Petrarchan's history with me and others you'll see we're way, way, way beyond AAGF territory.

00:46, 6 February 2014

• We're talking about Petrarchan's conduct here, not mine. WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF are universal policies/guidelines that apply regardless of whom you're dealing with. I think I'm on safe ground saying that you've been spared from Petrarchan's wrath because he/she sees you as having a similar POV.

04:50, 6 February 2014

• Sure, I'll give one example, the one that led to your insistence on me answering this question. In your response to some of Brian Dell's (apparently good faith) arguments you failed to address most of his arguments beyond, "Please stop POV pushing," and in the same comment you wrote, " ". I found your conduct unacceptable, and I believe many or most other Wikipedians would as well. Your near constant sighs and groans (literally) about being too tired to deal with your critics and your near constant accusations of POV-pushing seem never-ending despite my repeated requests that you stop. You clearly have a tin ear. I'll say it one last time, and then, as you request, I won't edit your user talk again (except for mandatory notices).

21:47, 6 February 2014

Coretheapple, as I continue gathering evidence of Petrarchan47's edit warring and often toxic relations with her fellow Wikipedians, I'd appreciate it if you refrained from putting words in my mouth, as you did in your preceding comment by stating my "position" in the least accurate way possible so as to ridicule me. JohnValeron (talk) 20:44, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Those are just accusations against this editor. Doesn't prove a thing. I've been accused of everything up to and including kidnapping the Lindbergh baby. Do you feel I should be extradited to New Jersey? Coretheapple (talk) 20:58, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

"Doesn't prove a thing." This from one of Misplaced Pages's most notorious inquisitors when comes to COI allegations. You may be sympathetic to Petrarchan's POV, thinking her McCarthyite anti-COI campaign is consistent with yours but are you aware that she goes a step further with her beware infiltrating government agents line? This after Mastcell had already tried to get her to back away when she was trying to finger Wikipedian Dr. Fleischman as a federal agent? Maybe that's too much bad faith assuming even for you, @Coretheapple? In any case on April 8 Petrarchan went 6RR in less than two and a half hours on the Edward Snowden article edit warring with JohnValeron and I and John and I let it go rather than take Petrarchan to an admin noticeboard thinking she'd be more likely to change her edit warring ways if shown mercy. Petrarchan then turns around and takes John to this noticeboard! It's right out of the Parable of the unforgiving servant. We obviously should have gotten Petrarchan blocked at the time since editors like you are making an issue out of "...history of edit warring blocks, which Petrarchan doesn't have, not even one." We apparently need to change our tactics with edit warriors like Petrarchan and get them blocked as soon as they violate 3RR given what editors like you make out of "clean" block histories.--Brian Dell (talk) 21:50, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Coretheapple, since you asked, I'll answer for the record: I wouldn't consign anyone—not even Petrarchan47—to New Jersey. JohnValeron (talk) 21:56, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Also, as we wend our merry way through this delightful WP:ANI adjudicating my alleged QUESTIONABLE COMMENTS, cherish this Pearl of Wisdom from Petrarchan47: "The thing is, you can't edit articles around here for very long without coming into contact with hardcore POV pushers and pure, unadulterated jerks." 20:13, 18 February 2014 Submitted here for entertainment purposes only. JohnValeron (talk) 22:10, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

And a comment of extraordinary accuracy. Coretheapple (talk) 22:19, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

You certainly have chutzpah, @Coretheapple. You declare in this thread that Petrarchan's got a clean edit warring record when you've participated in edit warring noticeboard complaints involving her trying to get her off. I note one gem of a comment in particular: " Coretheapple and I are two wiki-friends of Petrarchan47 that are concerned for HER health. Being brought in front of the Admin Noticeboard can be stressfull." So stressful! Yet Petrarchan bring someone else "in front of the Admin Noticeboard", well, that just's business!--Brian Dell (talk) 23:10, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Well actually I'm monitoring this board because I'm following another thread, so I dropped in on this one and another and boy! am I being yelled at. Talk about stress. It's terrible. Coretheapple (talk) 23:19, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

You could relieve yourself from the stress by declining to nod along when Petrarchan complains of "hardcore POV pushers" given that when IRWolfie noted that Petrarchan was, yet again, trying to battle what she thinks is a "large conspiracy" by "fighting the good fight against US Corporations" and "insert highly polemic statements" at that time you were all about not worrying about whether there was any POV pushing and just focusing on whether your "wiki-friend" could beat an edit warring charge on technicalities. I'll also note that while you trumpet Petrarchan's flawless block record (and try to justify all her COI attacks), when SpectraValor took her editing to the edit warring noticeboard she got off because the complaint was apparently a few hours stale. Yet another editor started a case on the 3RR noticeboard and Petarchan was found guilty of a 3RR violation but was again let off. There's nothing to be seen here, according to you.--Brian Dell (talk) 00:08, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

No, I'm seeing a lot of mud-slinging directed at her, doing a good deal to prove her original point. Coretheapple (talk) 00:54, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

You demanded "evidence" Petrarchan is an edit warrior and I pointed out that just within the last three weeks she went 6RR in less than 3 hours and subsequent to avoiding a block there got taken to the edit warring noticeboard by another editor where an admin found that "Petrarchan47 violated WP:3RR". This thread could have been shorter had you let us know earlier that you would be dismissing the evidence you ask for as "mud-slinging" since we would have known your request for evidence was not to be taken seriously.--Brian Dell (talk) 01:25, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

This thread would have been even shorter if you hadn't tried to divert attention from the real issues with mud-slinging and character assassination. Coretheapple (talk) 12:44, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

The issue here is Valeron's behaviour at the Snowden talk page, and the disruptive hostility. If bringing up anything Fleischman once said is supposed to justify comments made yesterday about my ineptitude as an editor, or the wiki-hounding, I fail to see the connection.

It should be noted that Dr Fleischman, shortly before leaving Misplaced Pages last month, admitted that Brian Dell's position - the kernel of the 3 month edit war - is untenable. Dr F essentially admitted that I was, in fact, right to have been exasperated by Dell; he came up against the exact same difficulties I had been complaining about. Dr F took BDell555's side immediately in the edit war, and regretted it later. In the end though, the POV warriors, not RS, won the day. The Lede to Edward Snowden now contains a SYNTH account of Snowden's passport/Russia saga rather than the simple account given by countless RS (that Snowden was stranded due to the US' revocation of his passport) because Brian Dell exhausted me completely. petrarchan47tc 22:20, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Doc is an ally of yours, is he? That's why he asked Mastcell to do something about you? "Dr F essentially admitted that I was, in fact, right to have been exasperated by Dell" Is that so? Yet after you claimed to be "officially 100% EXHAUSTED" (elsewhere saying my comments were simply too extensive for you to bother reading) Doc's reply was that "This "you are exhausting" talk is destructive, non constructive, and is contrary to the spirit of the project" and Doc specifically addressed you.--Brian Dell (talk) 22:46, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

And MastCell responded by saying that he didn't want to touch the case. The diffs I left show that after more information, Dr F progressed from blindly aligning himself with you, to becoming completely exacerbated as well and leaving WP. Before he did, he told Gandydancer: Btw, you and Petrarchan are probably in stitches over my recent interactions with Brian Dell at Talk:Edward Snowden, ad you have a right to be. Now that Brian's putting me through the ringer I certainly understand your frustration and "exhaustion." Then again while you may have been fully justified in feeling the way you did, IMO that didn't justify you expressing it to Brian, which was inflammatory and uncivil, even if honest. In any case, my reason for bringing this up isn't to justify my involvement; rather, just the opposite. If I had been actively participating in that discussion (rather than passively observing) I would have better appreciated what you and Petrarchan had been dealing with and I probably would have kept my mouth shut. So, in hindsight, I'm sorry for that indiscretion. Fleischman (talk) 05:03, 10 March 2014 petrarchan47tc 23:13, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Petrarchan47 may now claim to be fast friends with DrFleischman, but it wasn't always so. A mere six weeks ago she posted this to Doc's user talk page: "Why are you following me to articles completely unrelated to anything besides, I have to assume, your obsession with me? This is harassment…."

Sound familiar? Yep, it's Petrarchan47's standard charge of Wikihounding. In March, DrFleischman was "following" Petrarchan47 around Misplaced Pages due to his "obsession" with her. Now it's April, Doc has made no edits for 30 days, and so it's my turn to stand accused. After all, Petrarchan47 has got to have someone Wikihounding her. If not the obsessed Doctor, then I guess yours truly will do in a pinch. "This is harassment!" Maybe so. But who, pray tell, is harassing whom here? JohnValeron (talk) 23:24, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps we can close out this thread by quoting from said fast friend: "Petrarchan47, it is time to drop this cowardly and disruptive witch hunt once and for all."--Brian Dell (talk) 23:47, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I've mostly been a interested bystander on the Snowden talk page. I'll just comment that this noticeboard is for reporting and discussing incidents that require the intervention of administrators. Generally that means you need to ask for something specific, like a block, and give evidence that the requested action is required, for example three warnings on the user's talk page concerning a blockable offense, backed up by links to the offending edits. Kendall-K1 (talk) 00:57, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

What really matters is making sure WP:BLP is enforced

I generally consider myself to be an editor who tries to avoid all sorts of drama as far as possible. However, ever since I've started editing the Edward Snowden page, it has become very clear to me that this is one of those articles any sane editor would want to avoid at all costs. In fact, I've practically given up trying to make it look more like a biography than a battleground. I don't know what motivates some people to keep pushing a particular POV for so many months and I have to admit I do admire your determination to achieve whatever aims you have here, but I'm fully amazed that you don't even try to hide your POV.

Can we at least agree that labelling a living person as "narcissistic" on his biography, even quoting someone who did so, is extremely unconstructive? But at least this is better than turning the entire article into an NSA quote farm.

Although I think JV is a highly motivated editor, his lack of adherence to WP:BLP and his conduct towards other editors, and more importantly, his general attitude towards the subject of this biography is a serious cause for concern. -A1candidate (talk) 01:23, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

With respect to what you say is "most important," just what sort of "general attitude" towards Mr Snowden would you like to see? I take it that it would not be Hillary Clinton's--Brian Dell (talk) 01:43, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

A1candidate, please clarify your second paragraph, in which you link to the same diff for both "labelling a living person as narcissistic" and "turning the entire article into an NSA quote farm." I honestly don't understand how you can construe a single comment by former NSA Director McConnell, reliably sourced to New York magazine, as constituting an NSA quote farm. JohnValeron (talk) 01:38, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Also, A1candidate, if my behavior is such "a serious cause for concern," why have you waited until now to bring that to my attention—and in this highly adversarial context? I reckon you just like a good ambush. JohnValeron (talk) 01:49, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

@Bdell555 - An attitude that is in line with building a biography instead of fighting a battle would be more than welcome. For starters, how about not trying to remove reliably sourced information from Snowden while replacing his quotes with goveernment issued-statements? @JohnValeron - The fact that you use words like "ambush" is very telling of your attitude. Both of you obviously have a POV (you don't even try to hide it), this is something that I've long felt needed to be addressed. I always avoid drama, so this is going to be my last reply. -A1candidate (talk) 02:40, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

A1candidate, the fact that you stage an ambush only to turn tail and run is very telling of your attitude. JohnValeron (talk) 02:45, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Please comment on edits and ideas, not on editors'. Your comment above verges on a personal attack. Dial it down, please. BMK (talk) 19:41, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

What really matters is making sure Edward Snowden Hagiography is enforced

Note: I'm not indenting because my response applies to both the overall section Questionable comments by User:JohnValeron and its subsection What really matters is making sure WP:BLP is enforced. Also, thanks to admin Dennis Brown and user Beyond My Ken for pointing out that my subtitle (obviously a parody of A1candidate's subtitle) should not be formatted so as to appear in the TOC.

As the foregoing discussion demonstrates, at the heart of this post by Petrarchan47 to Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents is what user A1candidate identifies as my "attitude" towards Edward Snowden. In her edit warring over the past 10 months, Petrarchan47 has exemplified the politically correct attitude of blind partisanship in favor of Snowden. Moreover, she has acted as bully and enforcer, peremptorily exercising innumerable reverts to disrupt the attempts of other editors to provide balance. Shamelessly seeking to go beyond that and punish editors who have taken issue with her, last month she targeted DrFleischman, posting to his user talk page: "Why are you following me to articles completely unrelated to anything besides, I have to assume, your obsession with me? This is harassment…." Now, having disposed of DrFleischman (who has made no edits at Misplaced Pages for over 30 days), Petrarchan47 turns her sights on me, taking to this page to foster the impression that I have been Wikihounding. Her success in this smear is evidenced by the very first reply to her initial post, from DangerousPanda, who applied the term "wikistalking" to me.

No doubt the pro-Snowden partisans have the numbers to block and even ban me. But until then, I will not be intimidated. I shall continue to resist all attempts by A1candidate and Petrarchan47 to enforce their hagiography of Edward Snowden. I shall rely instead on Misplaced Pages's Neutral Point of View policy, which states in pertinent part, "Editors, while naturally having their own points of view, should strive in good faith to provide complete information, and not to promote one particular point of view over another. As such, the neutral point of view does not mean exclusion of certain points of view, but including all verifiable points of view which have sufficient due weight." JohnValeron (talk) 17:32, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

You seem to have glossed over the part about due weight. One person calling Snowden narcissistic does not merit including the term in the article. — The Hand That Feeds You: 12:51, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

HandThatFeeds, as explained in Misplaced Pages's due weight policy, "Neutrality requires that each article fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." In determining which viewpoint is significant in each instance, a Misplaced Pages editor must consider overall context, not just the particular report. For example, if an otherwise reliable but left-leaning, pro-Snowden publication runs a piece that includes 1,000 words of direct quotations from professional partisans such as Snowden lawyers Jesselyn Radack and Ben Wizner or journalistic enablers such as Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras, offset by 100 words from Hillary Clinton criticizing Snowden, Misplaced Pages is not required to reflect these opposing viewpoints in proportion to their numerical value. Rather, editors mush exercise judgment. The mere fact that a former U.S. Secretary of State, U.S. Senator and First Lady publicly disputes Snowden makes her words more significant than the utterly predictable, canned retorts of longtime Snowden shills, whose unchanging views are already amply represented in Misplaced Pages's Snowden article.

As for the specific example to which you allude, in the Motivations subsection, we quote former NSA director and current Booz Allen Hamilton vice chairman Mike McConnell's reference to Snowden as "narcissistic," reliably sourced to New York magazine. What you conveniently overlook, HandThatFeeds, is its placement near the end of a 1,074-word subsection that includes 566 of Snowden's own words (53% of the total), plus our paraphrasing of his views not directly quoted and statements by his enabler Laura Poitras. In a subsection devoted to his motivations, that focus is entirely appropriate. However, in this context, it is equally appropriate to quote a single sentence—all of 23 words—spoken by a prominent critic of Snowden's motivations.

Due weight does not require excluding significant minority viewpoints. JohnValeron (talk) 15:29, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Significance is the key here. Show that Snowden being narcissistic is a significant viewpoint, and you'd have a point. As it is, you really don't, and WP:WEIGHT is against you. Hagiography is definitely to be avoided, but so are unsupported POV opinions expressed only by a small number of people. BMK (talk) 17:47, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Beyond My Ken, Snowden being narcissistic is a significant viewpoint not because a large number of people have expressed it, but because of the prominence of who did express it: a former NSA director and current vice chairman of the firm for which Snowden worked as a contractor and where he sought employment expressly for the purpose of stealing more secret US Government documents to leak. "My position with Booz Allen Hamilton granted me access to lists of machines all over the world the NSA hacked," Snowden told the South China Morning Post on June 12, 2013. "That is why I accepted that position about three months ago." JohnValeron (talk) 18:03, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Editors could choose to quote McConnell because he's a prominent person; on the other hand the nature of his prominence in this case makes him a particularly unreliable source. Specifically, his crude characterization of the psychological motivations of a whistleblower are made in an unavoidably political context: they're certainly not reliable, and arguably unhelpful. We're not required to quote a famous person every time they open their mouths. -Darouet (talk) 18:36, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Placing McConnell's statement in the "reaction" section would be more reasonable, as it wouldn't purport to give readers special insight on Snowden's motivations. -Darouet (talk) 18:38, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Darouet, McConnell's reference to Snowden as "narcissistic" is properly contextualized in the Motivations subsection. The reliable source in this instance is New York magazine, not McConnell. He is quoted here not because he's famous, but because he's a former NSA director and current vice chairman at Booz Allen Hamilton. In both those capacities, he brings an insider's knowledge and expertise to bear on Edward Snowden. To exclude McConnell's viewpoint merely because you personally disagree with it is unsupported by Misplaced Pages policy. JohnValeron (talk) 19:24, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and as a former NSA director he's about as neutral about Snowden as an ex-grunt is about the Marine Corps. It's irrelevant that he's quoted by a reliable source, what's relevant is whether his view of Snowden is shared by others without a connection to and history with the Agency. BMK (talk) 19:39, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Rubbish. If Misplaced Pages required editors to quote ONLY neutral sources, we'd have to eliminate every quotation attributed to Snowden's lawyers Jesselyn Radack and Ben Wizner or journalistic enablers such as Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras, to mention just four of many such pro-Snowden speakers. The article would be reduced to 20% of its existing length. JohnValeron (talk) 19:59, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

I do believe that McConnell's statement may be notable: as a reader I could benefit from knowing what the man said even if I disagree. However, McConnell is an overtly hostile party and not a reliable when describing Snowden's motivations, which is why I think his comments fit better in "Reactions". -Darouet (talk) 22:33, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Drama and POV pushing

This drama pushes good editors away from the Snowden page. It is aimed at anyone wanting to add RS that implicates the US government in Snowden's 'choice' for asylum in Russia, and essentially anyone who disagrees with the edits of Valeron or Dell.

For instance, John Valerion had these comments about editors today:

• "At 20:40, 30 April 2014‎, User:A1candidate attempted to hijack the editorial process" *
• "Another Edit Warrior Parachutes In - Beyond My Ken thus attempts to backdoor his way into control of the Snowden article without posting a single comment at the Snowden Talk Page...This arrogant, willful behavior even ignores BMK's own admonishments to editors of other articles, whose work he has undone with a warning to Discuss on talk page, Do not revert without a consensus to do so. Clearly, Beyond My Ken is one of those Do As I Say, Not As I Do edit warriors." *

I addressed the now 5-month edit war here, for some context. Brian Dell's friend User:DrFleischman said it well: "There is consensus that "stranded" is reliably sourced and appropriate for the lead." and "When you're disputing an account made by dozens and dozens o reputable news sources, you've got to start asking yourself, are you trying to build an encyclopedia or are you trying to promote a fringe conspiracy theory instead?" More on that is here: Retelling of the passport story.

The Snowden page has been taken over by POV pushers. Here is a discussion for more insight. A1Candidate to Dell: "you seem to be more interested in pushing a particular POV instead of improving the article as a whole. A large portion of your edits appear to be related to Russia, Russia, and more Russia. We don't know for sure whether the Kremlin is behind Snowden's flight, as you have been claiming all along. While I do think it's a plausible theory, it's nothing more than mere speculation." Please see this Snowden Talk section for more.

Today, Dell and Valeron are using Business Insider and their report on a Wikileaks tweet to support their contention that Snowden chose to go to Russia, as opposed to what RS states over and over, very clearly: Snowden was stuck in Russia due to the US' revocation of his passport (RS listed here).

Last week, Snowden's entire accolades section was reduced by John Valeron to this. Here is the talk page discussion where I explain that to cut only his awards, squishing them to two unreadable paragraphs without condensing any other sections, is POV. Valeron says that Snowden's awards "all seem equally unmeritorious". Valeron notes that he does not find the article to need condensing, so his only reasons for this editing are POV, it would seem.

He also removed a quotation cited to Snowden, though his edit summary was: "reword so as to not imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources". Again, the edit serves the US government, but not Misplaced Pages.

He states: "I am participating here in good faith with the object of providing much-needed balance to th article, which is overly sympathetic to its controversial subject." When asked to specifically point out how the Snowden article is biased, Valeron never responds. Instead Brian Dell pops in with another long OR rant.

Valeron has become very hostile, and besides admittedly following my edits at Snowden by seconds, looking for any mistake, he also followed me to Laura Poitras supposedly fueled by the need to set things straight: the Pulitzer was not given to her, but to WaPo and Guardian. However both Glenn Greenwald and Barton Gellman's articles contained the same information and were, until I pointed this out to John, left untouched. Valeron is now {cn} tagging Poitras instead of finding the citations. He tagged "1971"'s release at Tribecca, whilst a simple search finds very good, recent articles about its release.

Brian Dell:

• As recently as April 14, Brian Dell was continuing his edit war, calling cited information OR dreamed up by User:Binksternet and inserting "allegedly" in the Lede.
• Dell continues to push this theme, with the edit summary: ""allegedly" stranded. Legal experts say there is no legal distinction between the airport and the rest of Russia. And no independent journalist verified that he was in the airport transit zone"
• Dell adds "reportedly" to cited information, arguing "supposedly he was stranded. The story does not hold up under scrutiny"
• Earlier Dell declares a Fox news article "demonstrably false" and changes the Lede in this same edit war.
• This is where Dell first appeared with his theory.
• Here is where Dell followed me on this same day to Jimbo's talk page to make some remarks.
• Here is where he followed me to an NSA awareness WikiProject I was working on.
• In this comment at the WikiProject, he justifies making this POV change to the Russ Tice article saying it was done "to more fully inform the reader about the reliability of this "whistleblower." He also states "Over at Talk:Edward_Snowden#Passport I've pointed out the problems with the line that it is the U.S. that has marooned Snowden in Russia, as opposed to Snowden or the Kremlin's own choice. These matters are all concerned with getting the facts right. If you've worked in media you'd know that there is huge popular demand for conspiracy theories." About NSA spying revelations, he states, "The truth is that this charge against the US government has been grossly exaggerated in the media."
• When news broke that there were statements made by some US officials about wanting Snowden dead, Dell had this (predictable) response.

Besides the obvious POV pushing by both of these editors, the hostility aimed at me and others who may oppose or question them needs to be addressed. No WP editor should repeatedly come into contact with this type of behaviour - the aggression is over the top, and better suited for YouTube comment sections. Brian Dell should be topic banned (an IBAN is also a consideration), and an IBAN against Valeron would be very much appreciated. I guarantee the Snowden article and Misplaced Pages would be better off for it, and would not be damaged in any way by these bans. But I am no expert, the response that would reinstate a sane, peaceful environment at Snowden (read: pre-Dell, pre-Valeron, circa Sep-Nov '13) is likely better determined by administrators. petrarchan47tc 22:44, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Petrarchan47 has now outdone herself in sheer, malicious perfidy, posting comments that I myself reconsidered and deleted within minutes. Clearly, Petrarchan47 will stop at nothing in her toxic efforts to poison the editorial atmosphere surrounding the Edward Snowden article. JohnValeron (talk) 23:06, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

It's pretty fucking ballsy of JohnValeron to accuse me of trying to "control" the Edward Snowden article, when he's made over 100 edits to it in the last week alone (over 300 in the last year), and I've made three edits in total. And to say that I edited without discussion is equally ludicrous, considering that the discussion took place right here on this thread, with his involvement. I suggest that if anyone's trying to "own" the Snowden article, or push a POV into it, it sure as hell isn't me. I also suggest that an admin might like to try to machete their way through the jungle of rapid-fire edits over there to see if some level of protection isn't called for to get things to stop so that reasoned discussion can take place. BMK (talk) 00:23, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

No reasoned discussion about the Edward Snowden article can take place here, on an adversarial ANI where I stand falsely accused and where my accuser is calling for Brian Dell and me to be banned. Any "consensus" about editing Edward Snowden arrived at within this ANI is illegitimate. The regular editors of the Snowden article do not follow ANI. We follow Talk:Edward Snowden, which is where all editorial discussions rightly belong. JohnValeron (talk) 00:57, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Bullshit, consensus is consensus, and it remains so even when it goes against you, and no matter where it takes place. Usually the article talk page is the best place for consensus discussions to take place, but when someone tries to dominate the discussion there it may have to take place in other venues. Besides, you've misread my comment above - if an admin were to fully protect the article - which I think would be fully justified by the volume and speed of the editing there, which indicates knee-jerk responses rather than well-considered action - then the reasoned discussion I was speaking about should take place there and not here.

At this point, however, editors have clearly despaired of getting any balance there while you and others continue to duke it out, and have come here for relief. Having felt the (temporary) sting of your displeasure, I understand precisely what they're talking about - you're trying to browbeat people into submission because you disagree with their POV (or what you perceive as their POV, which may well be mistaken), and that makes your editing as bad as theirs is, if they are also pushing a POV, as you claim. I still think temporary full protection would help, as would your thinking before you act. 04:14, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

I have to agree, full protection and Admin oversight for a while is a worthwhile consideration. petrarchan47tc 18:42, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

• User:Jehochman once filled this role at the Snowden page. We also spoke in January about bringing the article to GA status. It might be worth checking into these options as a way to cool the current edit warring and hostility. petrarchan47tc 23:46, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree. I personally don't edit the Snowden article because, to be frank, my feelings about him are fairly negative. I think that's the best course of action in dealing with a BLP in which one holds a negative POV - stay away. JohnValeron might want to consider doing that too. Coretheapple (talk) 10:54, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

From Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view:

Misplaced Pages aims to describe disputes, but not engage in them. Editors, while naturally having their own points of view, should strive in good faith to provide complete information, and not to promote one particular point of view over another. As such, the neutral point of view does not mean exclusion of certain points of view, but including all verifiable points of view which have sufficient due weight.

Misplaced Pages's due weight policy explains, "Neutrality requires that each article fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." As I pointed out above, former NSA director Mike McConnell's reference to Snowden as "narcissistic" is reliably sourced to New York magazine. McConnell served as U.S. Director of National Intelligence during the period when Snowden was employed by the CIA, which reports to the DNI. After leaving that post, McConnell rejoined Booz Allen Hamilton to lead the firm's intelligence business, and was vice chairman throughout Snowden's brief (less than three months) tenure as a BAH employee. These high-level positions give McConnell's perspective on Snowden significant weight. Moreover, our now-deleted quotation of McConnell provided the only balance to an otherwise self-serving 1,074-word subsection that includes 566 of Snowden's own words (53% of the total), plus paraphrasing of his views not directly quoted and statements by his enabler Laura Poitras. By excluding a single sentence—all of 23 words—spoken by a prominent critic of Snowden's motivations, you are totally suppressing a verifiable point of view that has sufficient due weight. In violation of policy, you are promoting Misplaced Pages's unbalanced cheerleading on behalf of Edward Snowden. JohnValeron (talk) 15:43, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

McConnell can hold any opinion about Snowden he wants, and can express them to anyone he wants to, but he's not qualified to discuss Snowden's psychological makeup in our article because he has no training or expertise in that area. He can say that Snowden is a traitor or that he's damaged his country or that he ought to be clapped in irons or that he's selfish or immature or whatever, because these are things anyone can say about anybody, but when he says that Snowden is a "narcissist", he's making a psychological evaluation, and he is not qualified to do that, and he can't be in our article expressing that opinion except, perhaps, as an example of people's reactions to Snowden's actions. BMK (talk) 16:23, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Dictionary.com provides two definitions of narcissist:

1. a person who is overly self-involved, and often vain and selfish.

2. Psychoanalysis. a person who suffers from narcissism, deriving erotic gratification from admiration of his or her own physical or mental attributes.

Neither Misplaced Pages's biography of Mike McConnell nor the sentence you seek to suppress in Edward Snowden identifies McConnell as a psychologist or psychiatrist. His opinion of Snowden as a "narcissist" is not a clinical evaluation, and only pro-Snowden editors such as yourself would so willfully and disingenuously misconstrue it. McConnell is using the term in its popular, not medical, sense. Note that Misplaced Pages quotes Yogi Berra as saying about baseball, "90% of the game is half mental." Are you going to suppress that, too, because Mr. Berra is not a credentialed mental health professional? JohnValeron (talk) 17:01, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Your WP:BATTLEFIELD mentality is showing - I am not "Pro-Snowden". In point of fact I have decidedly mixed feelings about what he did, including my belief that anyone who thinks that their government isn't in some way "spying" on them is a fool, and that such monitoring is, to some degree both necessary and harmless. But you don't know that, because you are, clearly and by your own admission, "anti-Snowden", and because I reverted one of your edits that must make me "pro-Snowden", thus throwing WP:AGF out the window.

I reverted your edit because the guy doesn't have the chops to make that kind of statement and have it appear in a Misplaced Pages article as a factual reason for Snowden's actions. You want to put in a "responses" section, that's different, the guy is notable and his allowed to have an opinion - he's just not allowed to express that opinion as fact on Misplaced Pages. You get it? It's the diference between "I think he's a narcissit" and "He did it because he's a narcissist." If you can't see the essential different between those two statements, and the need for the person saying the second one to have the right credentials, then you probably shouldn't be editing here.BMK (talk) 20:22, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Quid pro quo

Never let it be said that Petrarchan47 does not reward those gallant souls who spring to her defense here at ANI. Vote early and vote often, Wikipedians, for "must-read" commenter Coretheapple as Crony of the Week. JohnValeron (talk) 00:12, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Admin attention requested: Can I get an admin to give JV an WP:NPA warning? If nothing else, his serious lack of AGF is worrying. BMK (talk) 02:18, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree with your broad argument on the McConnell quote, here, but the last time this came up at AN/I (Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive835#User:Petrarchan47 Serial COI Accusations as Battlegrounding), I got more or less the same impression John has, although I would have expressed it more delicately. That said: John, knock it off. Wholesale snarkiness will only succeed in getting people to blow you off; there's plenty in Petrarchan's editing history, plainly and dispassionately expressed, to build a case against her. Choess (talk) 02:39, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Choess, I appreciate your advice, but I am not the least bit interested in building a case against Petrarchan47. As you imply, and as demonstrated by her shameless use of an Editor of the Week nomination to reward Coretheapple for supporting her in this meretricious ANI, Petrarchan47 is her own worst enemy. JohnValeron (talk) 15:12, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Well, now, isn't this enlightening? Following the link provided by Choess, I just read User:Petrarchan47 Serial COI Accusations as Battlegrounding posted to ANI less than a month ago by User:Geogene. It broadens one's perspective on Petrarchan47's generally antagonistic behavior and her contemptuous hostility in particular to editors who do not submit to her supposed authority. And guess who rushed to her support on that occasion? Why, our presumptive Editor of the Week, of course: Coretheapple. What a magnificent team they make! A true credit to Misplaced Pages. JohnValeron (talk) 15:33, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Dr Fleischman, before leaving WP last month, tried very hard to build a case against me. He went to people angry at me from the BP (Geogene) and March Against Monsanto (SecondQuanitzation/IRWolfie) articles and found willing participants to help find diffs for an eventual ANI. He asked MastCell and Drmies for help, both said no. MastCell has repeatedly said he has respect for me as an editor, and as for my complaints about Geogene (who eventually took me to ANI), he said: "Back in the day, I used to feel like there was a core of clueful editors who would support each other in these kinds of situations, but most of that core has been run off the site or decided they have better things to do than argue interminably with cranks and agenda accounts."

Geogene was canvassed by Dr F, who still has a list of my wrongdoings compiled, and who appeared to be helping Geogene with diffs for her unsuccessful ANI. Geogene came to the BP oil spill articles (where I met Coretheapple, and whom btw, I had been planning to nominate for months) and began making POV changes. Her biggest grievance was with the tremendously well-cited study mentioned in the Lede of Corexit (in this version). To end the edit war there, I slashed the Lede and removed mention of studies. Geogene, who purportedly wanted to help the Project, and improve the Corexit article specifically, has not been seen since. As was obvious from the start, her efforts seemed focused on removing content harmful to BP. Once that was done, there was no interest in actually working on the article, or WP for that matter. I noted that her appearance and frantic editing coincided with the announcement of BP's Clean Water Act trail. I was asked by other editors not to make such connections unless I have proof of COI, so I have agreed to stay silent in the future.

I do not see how that ANI plays into this one, however. Valeron's behaviour should not be tolerated, and there is no case to be made that it is justified by anything I have done, or by anything that has been said about me. The NPOV requirement for editors is not being met in his case, and I think a topic ban should be considered. Just today he was reverted at James R. Clapper and Edward Snowden for non-neutral editing. * * *

Whether my edits to Snowden have been POV has not been proven, nor has a case been made that the Snowden article is biased. I have put in a lot of time and work on that article, and the atmosphere there has driven away everyone else but the anti-Snowden editors. That has been pretty stressful, and is why I have opened this, my first ANI to see whether something can be done to stop this. petrarchan47tc 18:33, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

As usual, Petrarchan47 is lying to promote her punitive crusade to get me banned. The diffs she cites as evidence that "just today" I was reverted, actually date from May 2, 2014. Petrarchan47, who will do anything to get her way, is the most unethical editor I have ever encountered. JohnValeron (talk) 18:46, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

As usual I don't know what day it is. I am the most unethical editor EVER. John's ever-balanced, non-hyperbolic views will save the Pedia one way or another. Thank goodness we've got editors like this around. petrarchan47tc 18:52, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

• Seriously, John, this is the type of "lie" that matters around here. Wouldn't you consider this unethical? petrarchan47tc 00:14, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

IBAN for JohnValeron

I have seen too many disruptive actions taken against Petrarchan47 by JohnValeron. This behavior should be addressed by IBAN.
JohnValeron was working on the Chelsea Manning biography and the court case United States v. Manning in the summer and autumn of 2013. In late December 2013, he encountered Petrarchan47 at the Edward Snowden biography, at the Sibel Edmonds biography, and at the article about Global surveillance disclosures (2013–present). Talk page relations were civil at first but by February 2014 the tone was strained, then icy with disdain and hurtful irony: "Misplaced Pages should permanently lock out all editors except Petrarchan47, whose sole proprietorship would be beyond reproach." By March, JohnValeron was engaged in WP:BATTLEGROUND confrontation, trying to get a rise out of Petrarchan47 by referring back to the "sole proprietorship" comment: "I earnestly hope this meets with approval and does not offend particular editors with an aggravated sense of sole proprietorship over this article." Also: baiting Petrrarchan47 with this comment: "...rest assured that the ever-vigilant Petrarchan47 has undone my revisions in toto." At the end of March JohnValeron was accusing Petrarchan47 of having "paranoid fantasies", and insulting her with the term "schoolmarm"—a sexist putdown intended to stifle discussion. The April 8 comment "petrarchan47 has zero credibility" was a gross attack, a poisoning of the well to remove Petrarchan47 from effective discussion. I suggest that JohnValeron should be given an interaction ban with regard to Petrarchan47. Binksternet (talk) 02:48, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

IMO, given the admission of POV towards the topic, a TBAN could also be considered. petrarchan47tc 08:17, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

User:Shane Harper 4 Life

User:Shane Harper 4 Life has been adding malicious content, harassed me, and removing/ignoring warnings given. This all started when I reverted the user for adding unreasonable content (, , , ) on the Bridgit Mendler article. The user then started an edit war by restoring the unreasonable content. I then gave the user two warnings: (one for edit warring, and another for harassment on my talk page. The user then removed my and prior warnings by other users. After reverting the blanking, the user removed them again and claimed that they were attacks. If this behavior continues and the warnings don't work, I would suggest that an indefinite block from editing altogether and banning from editing Bridgit Mendler-related articles and my talk page will. IPadPerson (talk) 20:10, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

It's not clear to me why you call those additions 'incoherent content' - they look reasonable on the face of it to me. Could you explain what's wrong with them?

Also, although it might have been better for Shane Harper 4 Life to engage with you on the talk page instead of reverting your revert, I think slapping them with edit warring templates was a bit of an overreaction on your part. Better would have been an attempt to engage them and discuss the edits. Additionally, I certainly don't think their reply to you was 'harassment'. Finally, editors are perfectly entitled to remove warnings from their own talk pages - it's taken as acknowledgement that they've read them.

I would encourage you to discuss the issue with the editor on the article's talk page, and only return to request admin help if that doesn't work. Olaf Davis (talk) 17:20, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I left them a message on their talk page pertaining their disruptive behavior on that article and talk pages, and the user had yet to reply. IPadPerson (talk) 00:08, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

• No, IPadPerson, you have yet to reply to Olaf Davis's question. What on earth is wrong with this and this edit? Clearly edits made in preparation for this edit, which therefore consists of verified content (if the edit was done correctly, of course)? And what's your problem here? I mean, I can think of why I would find it problematic, but you haven't given a reason. And sorry Olaf, but before Shane's revert there was this completely over-the-top, dismissive, and unexplained revert (and Twinkle abuse, I might add--Dennis Brown, what was the status of "pulling Twinkle like it's rollback" again?). No, IPadPerson, it is you who was in the wrong here, and why Davey2010, would roll(back) along with you is a mystery to me. As far as I'm concerned, and I welcome other admins here, both of you are guilty of BITE and of Rollback/Twinkle abuse. I just saw the "warning" you left on their talk page, this one, and--how do I say this diplomatically--have you lost your fucking mind? That is SO unacceptable you should have been blocked for it, and if you can't figure out what you did wrong, from the callous and unexplained revert, to the Twinkle abuse, to the edit warring warning after they reverted your unexplained revert, to a ridiculous and overblown "only warning" for this edit--that's harassment??, to the reinstatement of a warning they'd removed (and Davey2010 did the same thing)--if you can't, I repeat, figure out what you did wrong there then you probably deserve to be blocked for unwarranted warnings, edit warring, incivility, overblown charges, and Twinkle abuse, per BOOMERANG. Want to make this better? Apologize to Shane Harper 4 Life. Seriously, Dennis, how do we pull Twinkle? Drmies (talk) 01:15, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Without regard to the merits here: To my best knowledge, there isn't a normal way to remove Twinkle. Technically, you could remove it from their *.js pages and then full protect all their *.js pages (ugly kludge but should work). I think the standard way to do it (assuming it isn't covered by WP:Discretionary sanctions) is to propose it as a type of "topic ban", and if it has consensus and they use it again, you block them. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:25, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
    • Brain spasm, you can't do it that way anymore. You can only do it via a topic ban now. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:34, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
    • I gave him a warning because 1. I assumed he was spoken too and 2 I thought removing the warnings was disruptive until I remembered it was fine and in all fairness I did self revert & remove the warning. →Davey2010→→Talk to me!→ 01:30, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
      • Sure, but didn't you remove it because you thought it was a duplicate? Yes, removing warnings is fine: I would have been much happier if you had undone the revert in the article. Drmies (talk) 01:43, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
        • Ah I wasn't aware I'd reverted incorrectly too, I shall make you happy! :) →Davey2010→→Talk to me!→ 01:48, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
    • @Drmies: @Dennis Brown: - I've apologized to Shane since I clearly didn't show some good faith, 9/10 I do but seems in this case I didn't - No one can be perfect but nonetheless Lesson Learnt . →Davey2010→→Talk to me!→ 01:46, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
      • Davey, I've seen you around and it seems to me you're one of the good ones. I hope you understand why I took issue with the revert (more than with the warning, by the way), and I appreciate what you just said. (And I already reinstated the edit.) Drmies (talk) 01:49, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
        • I totally understand, I'm not sure why I had reverted but obviously in future I'll be ALOT more careful, Thanks for the kind words means alot, (Damn you beat me to it :) ), →Davey2010→→Talk to me!→ 01:53, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Not quite sure why you're apologising to me, Drmies. Yes, I pretty much agree with your assessment. I was a lot milder in my rebuke than I could have been. Olaf Davis (talk) 15:32, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
    • Because I disagree with "although it might have been better for Shane Harper 4 Life to engage with you on the talk page instead of reverting your revert", that's all. If the revert had been explained, sure. Drmies (talk) 15:44, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
• Alright, IPadPerson seems no longer interested in this section. Strange! They were all over it at first. Let me tell them, then, that this is a warning. Further abuse of Twinkle, incivility, bullying, and unexplained reverting can be considered a blockable offense. That may seem draconian, but it is important to realize that they already bullied one editor in staying away from an article, and that they apparently do not hesitate bringing someone to the dramah board--though when the tables are turned and the boomerangs start flying, they pretend to not be at home (even though they were active throughout this discussion). A final note on Twinkle--apparently we can't pull Twinkle, and a topic ban for it seems like a lot of work; we'll just consider a block, since such abuse is highly disruptive. Drmies (talk) 02:44, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

A50000

Last month, I reported A50000 (talk · contribs) here because of his disruption at Soviet Union (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), as seen here. Since then, all he has done is make half-assed attempts at arguing with me over the pedantry of my claim that he was edit warring while constantly claiming that his version is correct and that he was not violating WP:CONSENSUS. After his last message, I gave him a warning not to bother me again over this matter. Without my knowing, he edited the archived thread two days ago and today sent me an identical version of the message that he sent me earlier in the month. It is blatantly clear that A50000 is no longer here to work on this project collaboratively. All he has done is gotten into petty disputes on issues regarding communism and socialism and when asked to drop the stick he does not, multiple times. I don't know if this is because he is a WP:SPA, it's a case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, he's a case of WP:NOTHERE, or just a lack of competence. Drmies previously said that he would possibly block him, but because A50000 has not been disruptive in the article space, he saw no need for it at the time. I should not have to deal with this editor coming back once a week to say "why was I wrong" or "it takes two to tango", blatantly ignoring anything I've said to him.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:17, 28 April/18:57, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I was going to leave him a warning but I noticed that he did almost the exact same thing to RolandR in March. This continuing harassment of editors combined with persistent edit-warring shows that they have a battleground mentality incompatible with Misplaced Pages. I'm following up on Drmies' previous suggestion to block indefinitely and implementing it. -- Atama頭 19:44, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

March of last year but thank you.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:25, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant March of 2013, that would have been a nice little detail to include. -- Atama頭 22:14, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Disruptive editor

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

BLUF: Science.Warrior needs an indef block for repeatedly restoring copyvios and for being remarkably disruptive.

Hullaballoo Wolfowitz and I have been reverting SW for inserting copyrighted material and disrputing other articles, such as removing an AfD template from a nominated page and issuing inappropriate warnings]. Multiple users have tried explaining his actions to him, however, he pays no heed to the advice and continues on his rampage. He has busted 3RR on two separate articles, Self_actualization_theory and Kurt Goldstein. The user has also made reference to WP:BEANS, so I'm pretty sure we're not dealing with a new user. Please block; I'm done dealing with him. Ishdarian 22:35, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Science.Warrior clearly has earned a block. As Ishdarian notes, he has broken 3RR on two different articles, repeatedly added nonfree images to articles while preposterously claiming to be the copyright owner, and harassed editors who disagree with him - in my case, removing the AFD tag from an article I'd nominated earlier today, then announcing at the top of my talk page that "i will be frequently giving you visits from now onward". The account has only been around a few days, and appears to be a returning editor with an agenda, despite suddenly claiming to be a newbie when attention was drawn to his editing. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 22:51, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Comment - This statement is not true regarding the Goldstein article. "He has busted 3RR on two separate articles, Self_actualization_theory and Kurt Goldstein."

See info here. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Kurt_Goldstein&action=history After counting using the article history, it appears that Hullaballoo Wolfowitz and Science Warrior undid revisions two times EACH. Looks like a bit of fuzzy math?

Carriearchdale (talk) 23:18, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

1, 2, 3, 4. Ishdarian 23:38, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Wow, that was an allegedly well thought out way to tag team a newer editor, and get him/her to a ani in a jif! What happened to not being bitey to newer editors?

Carriearchdale (talk) 23:47, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry that you feel that way, however, that was not the only reason the editor is here. I'm pretty sure that breaking 3RR is small potatoes compared to the restoration of copyvios. Thanks for assuming good faith, though! Ishdarian 23:52, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Just ignore "Carrie"; she's a malicious, dishonest troll with a burn against me because I caught her committing gross BLP violations and forced the cleanup of this articles involved; see Rachel Reilly and Talk:Rachel Reilly. Nobody who looks at SW's talk page history and sees the barrage of independent warnings from five different editors will give her nonsense any credence. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 00:05, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Comment - Hello fellow Wikipedians. I (user Science.Warrior) am pretty sure that user "ishdarian" & user "hullaballoo" are part of a bigger conspiracy on Misplaced Pages, So let me answer all the baseless allegations reported by them one by one.

• Inserting copyrighted material The copyrighted material both these users are talking about, are the pictures prepared and uploaded by me using CS6 . When i asked for their help on how to change the license, no help was provided rather both of them vandalized the articles Kurt Goldsteinand Self actualization theory deleting the images from the articles, which are been solely prepared and uploaded by me. So if they both have problem with the copyright material why don't they guide me on how to make valid changes in the license section of the pictures? I really don't know what "3RR" these guys referring to, when i search wiki it shows up this page 3RR, I am a new user and have joined Misplaced Pages 4 days ago, these users are trying to use "technical buzzwords" to cover their act of their vandalism and personal attacks.

• Reference to Wp:beans Well i am new here but i am a fast learner, as user-"Hullaballoo Wolfowitz" stated "The account has only been around a few days and appears to be a returning editor with an agenda, despite suddenly claiming to be a newbie when attention was drawn to his editing" I take this as a compliment, that he is so impressed by my contribution to Misplaced Pages in few days that he thinks i am a returning editor. Yes i have a agenda and anyone can read that on my user page.

• Removing the AFD tag I think this was a pre-planned conspiracy setup by both the user "Hullaballoo Wolfowitz" & "ishdarian". They reverted my edits endless times on the article Kurt Goldstein, self actualization theory and user-"Ishadharin" 8 times in a row reverted the link of the article self actualization theory to the article self actualization, The primary motive of writing the article self actualization theory by me was because the article self actualization does not meet the quality standard of Misplaced Pages and was tagged with 3 "Bad article" tags, if i would have edited the article i would have to delete the previous contributions of other contributors, so i rather decided to write a new article and let other editors decide what can be done, This information can be seen on the talk page of the article self actualization, where users have complaints about the quality of the article. So after their constant attacks i also tried to do the same & fell in their trap, i am a new user 4 days old & i don't know much of technicality of Misplaced Pages right now.

• Beside this both the users "Hullaballoo Wolfowitz" & "ishdarian" have started personal attacks on the articles i was or working on for past few days, I constantly asked for their guidance on their talk pages but they don't reply or provide any guidance and rather keep on vandalizing the articles i am working on, they have made 28 edits in past 5 hours to the articles i have corrected recently.

• But i would really respect both these users "Hullaballoo Wolfowitz" & "ishdarian" if they are really concerned about the authenticity and quality of material on Misplaced Pages as they claim, but i rather feel they are trying to establish their unnecessary authority on Misplaced Pages by forcing other editors and new editors to comply on what they feel is right.

• Both the users "Hullaballoo Wolfowitz" & "ishdarian" use a very strong and rough abusive language on "edit summary" of articles and on other users talk pages, for eg. "Just ignore "Carrie"; she's a malicious, dishonest troll" which user-"Ishdarian" used to refer to user-"Carriearchdale" on his above comments publicly, You can imagine what kind of language he would be using on other user talk pages. I strongly feel both these users are trying to establish their unnecessary authority on Misplaced Pages by their conspiracy tactics and should be reminded that this would not be tolerated here. Science.Warrior (talk) 08:26, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Comment-Just to let you and everyone else know Science.Warrior this one user h that was posting back and forth with you on Monday is himself dishonest, instigating, and an inciting troll that picks out victims on wikipedia just to give a hard time to said victims. It appears as if the other user I allegedly went in tandem, or tag team mode with h to try to incite you to be reverting h's ridiculous and vandalizing changes to the articles that you were improving.

I read where h typed a very demeaning message to you when you were trying to discuss with him the issues on his talk page. And then h erased all the banter between you and him on his talk page by reverting or erasing somehow perhaps to hide the evidence of his uncivil and threatening behavior towards you. see WP:CIVIL

I saved this one post he made to you:

"NFCC issues

In response to your question, poorly placed as it may have been, on my talk page, you badly need to become familiar with WP:NFC and WP:NFCC. You've also just broken WP:3RR on the Goldstein article, so unless you immediately revert yourself you're going to get a break from editing in which to do so. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 21:32, 28 April 2014 (UTC)" - one instance see WP:CIVIL

That one reads a bit like a threat and or personal attack to me, as well as possibly violating WP:CIVIL.

I have been a member of wikipedia since 2007. I would like to welcome you Science.Warrior to wikipedia. If you have any questions about wikipedia, or I can help you you in anyway with some of the questions and wiki technical type stuff please do not hesitate to contact me @ my talk page. I hope you and everyone have a most citational and perfect Tuesday! ciao!!! Carriearchdale (talk) 09:56, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Science.Warrior: "been solely prepared and uploaded by me" So you're saying you met Kurt Goldstein and Abraham Maslow and took these photos? And this happened when? These images don't particularly look like they were taken close to the age these people passed away, particularly for Kurt Goldstein. So you took the photos or at least the Kurt Goldstein one 70 or more years ago perhaps?

Also please see WP:Vandalism. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the other editors here, their actions clearly aren't vandalism and calling it such seriously discredits any valid point you may have.

Nil Einne (talk) 13:29, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

P.S. If you're a new user, this still doesn't explain why you removed the AFD template which clearly tells you not to remove it. Removing the template doesn't of course change the fact the article is at AFD which is why it was later fixed by a bot, and as others have said you're reasoning didn't even make sense (you apparently didn't read the tag properly, it sounds like you didn't even read the article properly). I don't know what nonsense you're talking about a preplanned conspiracy either as you had not edited the article Master Liam Lockran or its talkpage until you removed the template, unless you're saying you're an alternative account of User:Sutorta. How was anyone to know you would randomly stalk HW and remove an AFD tag they added to an unrelated article, apparently without reading much at all. Nil Einne (talk) 13:50, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I came across this editor yesterday, after seeing "unnecessary vandalism by nominating for AFD, this is valid article, with strong theory and history." as an edit summary something felt really strange about this. Note that their way with language seems to dramatically decline over time, which to me seems like they're trying to appear like a newer user.

While Science.Warrior is claiming that Hullaballoo Wolfowitz and Ishdarian have something against them, SW has been following the users contributions and reverting perfectly valid edits as "vandalism" I'm unsure whether SW is a new user or just a new account, but to me it seems like they're WP:NOTHERE.

--Lewis Hulbert (talk) 13:33, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Comment - ok now i (user Science.Warrior) can connect the missing dots to this conspiracy, after reverting the edits by User-"Hullaballoo Wolfowitz" and "User:Ishdarian". User-"Lewis Hulbert" was the one to put the speedy delete tag on the images i uploaded, i tried to remove the unnecessary tag but user-"Nil Einne" came and tagged it again, following this i decided to write on user-"Nil Einne" talk page on how the improvements can be made, but before that can be done, to my surprise i see both of these users have already commented here. Are you guys working in a team or what?

• "been solely prepared by me" means made on Adobe CS6 platform, which i stated above, if you are not aware of the of what CS6 can do please ask your friend Google and I am really confused why are allegations of "returning editor", "old user with new account" cited? am i that good learning things, i even didn't knew that. The best part that makes me laugh is, I am a "returning editor" and writing articles and uploading photos related to "psychology" and "business theories", the allegations would look good if i would be writing promotional contents or extremist articles on religion and countries.
• right now i am dead sure this team is a part of some "conspiracy planning" or the "teenage superiority war games". "Listen up guys, i am devoting my precious time to provide quality contribution to Misplaced Pages, if you ask why? you can find the answer of my user page. So if you are really concerned about Misplaced Pages content quality and governance like you show, try to help me out rather bombarding me with personal attacks and wasting my time." Science.Warrior (talk) 14:44, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Now you're either blatantly lying or just confused. I haven't tagged any of your images for speedy deletion either here or on Wikimedia Commons. --Lewis Hulbert (talk) 15:22, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

In fact, I haven't been involved in this at all prior to the earlier comment on this discussion. --Lewis Hulbert (talk) 15:23, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I've blocked Science.Warrior for a week. I was tempted to block the editor indefinitely, but because they are new I cut them a bit of slack. This editor is convinced that the warnings they've received are illegitimate and a small group of editors have a conspiracy against them. My hope is that a block will snap them out of that mindset. If not, an indefinite block will probably be needed to prevent further disruption. -- Atama頭 16:02, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

(multiple EC) Look I doubt anyone really gives a damn what you did or did not do in CS6 which was why I didn't mention it earlier. CS6 cannot magically construct images out of thin air. And it's clear these are photos, not paintings you drew from memory or your imagination or whatever.

These photos were clearly not taken by you therefore they cannot be your own work, whatever you may or may not have done with them in CS6. To claim they "solely prepared"" by you, let alone that they were your own work, was quite misleading when the core creative work, that of taking the photographs, was clearly NOT your work. Your apparent inability to understand this doesn't bode well.

New editors do sometimes get confused with copyright matters. But as copyright is serious they should read and think about what they are doing and be willing to listen and defer to others and stop any possibly problematic copyright related editing until and unless they properly understand the problems with their editing (seeking help when needed) and are unlikely to repeat such problems. You've shown none of that. While not technically a wikipedia issue, removing the speedy deletion tags not once but twice on commons without converting it in to a normal deletion was clearly not acceptable there. Nor are any reversions of copyright violation removals you're made here.

Incidentally the tags were added in commons by Commons:User:The Big Bad Wolfowitz who I presume is an alternative account for HW. Lewis Hulbert is correct they were not involved. So again, you've failed to properly read and check before doing stuff (in this case accusing someone). All this might be slightly tolerable were it not for your continual shrill accusations when you appear to be mostly in the wrong (and most of your accusations make little sense), inability or unwillingness to understand what you're being told, and general unpleasant attitude that I've seen here and elsewhere.

P.S. Since Kurt Goldstein is deceased and we possibly have no image of them, it's possible a WP:NFCC claim could be made for some image. That would of course need to be done here, not on commons and particularly given his age, perhaps a check to see if any public domain images exist (I mean it's possible the image you're trying to upload is in the public domain, we just don't have anywhere enough info to say that it is). People could have, and probably would have, discussed this with you if you'd approached it in a more resonable manner rather than the way you did.

Nil Einne (talk) 16:18, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

• A week-long block for the WP:C issues demonstrated herein is unfortunately inadequate. Per the precautionary principle, I've changed the block to indefinite until such time that Science.Warrior can demonstrate that they understand the issues at hand. Anything else puts both them and Misplaced Pages at risk. MLauba 00:26, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Carriearchdale

Good. Now what should be done about user:Carriearchdale? Hr contributions to this thread have been far from helpful (rather the complete opposite), and from reading coments here, it seems she has displayed problematic behaviour for a long time. She e.g. stated here that one of HW's statements was not true and that SW only reverted twice: however, looking at the edit history she linked, it is very obvious that Science Warrior reverted four times in the span of less than two hours (20.07, 20.27, 20.38 and 21.22). Later comments in the same discussion include things like "h's ridiculous and vandalizing changes to the articles that you were improving." (Hullabaloo removed a copyvio, hardly vandalizing). Her involvement here seems to be rataliation for Hullabaloo's edits at Ink Master (season 4)

Carriearchdale was editing that article, and removed the GOCE tag at 18.45., making her last edit at 19.29. 6 Hours later, Hullabaloo edited the article, and the immediate reaction from Carrie was to readd the GOCE tag. Hullabaloo ten makes ten edits to the article, which were all at once reverted by Carriearchdale because "GOCE tag is in place" (no edits were made on the article by Carriearchdale between placing the GOCE tag and reverting Hullabaloo). More back-and-forths followed. Apparently they have a longer history, but that doesn't give her an excuse to insert herself into a dispute and try to derail it by spouting incorrect statements and claming that Hullabaloo made personal attacks (see above, no personal attack exists in the example she gives). Fram (talk) 07:55, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Post-closing comments

@TParis: um, what? "As for Carriearchdale, we don't block people for disagreeing with Fram." I have never encountered Carriearchdale, and have no "disagreements" with her. As an editor uninvolved with either party or article in this dispute, I noticed someone (Carriearchdale) coming here seemingly to get someone she has problems with (Hullabaloo) into trouble, and to achieve that she makes some completely incorrect claims here. I don't believe such behaviour should be ignored. But I don't want her blocked for disagreeing with me, please show me where she disagreed with me (or where I asked for a block for that matter, ANI can be used for more than just blocks) before making such statements, and please don't close discussions with such out-of-the-blue misinformed claims. Fram (talk) 17:24, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

For starters this comment from above: "Fram's points that "Carrie" had actively encouraged an obvious copyright violator and misrepresented the simple facts about an editing dispute in order to denigrate editors she disagreed with should not have been dismissed as a mere personal disagreement.

If you read here ] you will see this statement: "She e.g. stated here that one of HW's statements was not true" In fact at this place https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Carriearchdale]

This is what I said: "Comment - This statement is not true regarding the Goldstein article. "He has busted 3RR on two separate articles, Self_actualization_theory and Kurt Goldstein.""

This is the person who made the statement (still again same diff (click anyone you like)] "He has busted 3RR on two separate articles, Self_actualization_theory and Kurt Goldstein. The user has also made reference to WP:BEANS, so I'm pretty sure we're not dealing with a new user. Please block; I'm done dealing with him. Ishdarian 22:35, 28 April 2014 (UTC)"

Now then let us all scroll back up here to this comment: "The only "retaliation" was for someone coming to an unrelated ANI thread not to give useful opinions and perspective, but to get an opponent into trouble, and by making completely incorrect statements to boot. I don't think such behaviour is acceptable. "

• The only person/user that I know for certain made one and or more incorrect and misleading statements is named. fram Fram.

• To quote fram from scrolling up}

• "by making completely incorrect statements to boot. I don't think such behaviour is acceptable."

• "misrepresented the simple facts about an editing dispute in order to denigrate editors she disagreed with should not have been dismissed as a mere personal disagreement."fram

Fram' trys to point out that "Carrie" had actively encouraged an obvious copyright violator and misrepresented the simple facts about an editing dispute in order to denigrate editors she disagreed with should not have been dismissed as a mere personal disagreement."

It all just looks like the cat calling the kettle black!!!

pot calling the kettle black This is a phrase that states that the person you are talking to is calling you something that they themselves are (and generally in abundance). from: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pot%20calling%20the%20kettle%20black

Well I hope you all had a ribbony May Day. They even celebrated in Moscow today, the first time since the Soviet era! ciao!!! Carriearchdale (talk) 22:27, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

If there was a point to this post you have now made in at least three discussions (here, my talk, TParis talk), it would be useful if you expressed it somewhat coherently. You are supposed to be a member of the Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors, please bring these skills with you and give us a message we can understand without needing to decipher it. Fram (talk) 09:39, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Disruptive, authoritarian editor

I am reporting an editor (User:Winkelvi) who has, over the past year, been a huge disruption to the development of a series of articles. The user refuses to work with other users and is quick to attack those who try to resolve disputes via Request For Comments. The user has used abusive language and has made editing these pages a true hassle. The user has not added any material to the pages over the past year but denies being a disruption. This user's apparent only purpose with these pages is to prevent the addition of new content and rewrite sentences, often times distorting the intended meaning of the sentences and introducing grammatical errors. Nearly all content added to the articles on Template:Sound of Contact since their creation has been subject to a veto attempt by User:Winkelvi. Even the very creation of the Dimensionaut article was argued against by User:Winkelvi. The user has dismissed WP:CONSENSUS in the past and expressed hostility towards other editors, for example here: . When talks are taken to that user's talk page, the comments are swiftly deleted; i.e. here . Every discussion we seem to have escalates into this user accusing myself or, in one case, User:Spanglej, of various issues, often in the most hypocritical manner. Here is another instance of another editor speaking about User:Winkelvi's hostility: . Many discussions have been had, and there has been no resolution. The current discussion prompting this notice is:

That entire page (in addition to my talk page, and the talk pages of the affiliated articles), meanwhile, is evidence of that user's repeated attempts to dispute and block every addition made to this article and its related articles. This user has been reported on this noticeboard twice already for similar conduct:

First report: (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring&oldid=561690390#User:Winkelvi_reported_by_User:Vuzor_.28Result:_No_action.29).

Second report: (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring&oldid=565703341#User:Winkelvi_reported_by_User:Vuzor_.28Result:_Warned.29).

This user has only done harm to the process of developing these articles over the past year. I request a ban on this user (User:Winkelvi) from editing the articles found on Template:Sound of Contact in addition to any new affiliated articles that may be added to that template in the future, as the user appears to have an interest in preventing these articles from growing, and refuses to collaborate with others involved. The user has in the past week alone been involved in numerous incidents attempting to block content from being added:, (a three-month process to add a paragraph of content). As someone who is undoubtedly frustrated with this and who appears to be one of the only editors working on these articles, this has made me very weary of having to face this obstacle with every revision. Every attempt to add to the construction of the page is a lengthy, difficult process involving the same editor.Vuzor (talk) 23:35, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

What do you expect admins to do? Howunusual (talk) 01:23, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

My request is a WP:TBAN (a topic ban) as specified here and here . I don't know where else on Misplaced Pages that editor participates, so in fairness to that editor I think this is a possible solution. Vuzor (talk) 01:52, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm opposed to anyone involved in a topic proposing sanctions on other editors. If you have a legitimate complaint, lay it out and let uninvolved editors develop suitable sanctions.--v/r - TP 01:58, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Fair point. I apologize; this has happened numerous times, so I am quite frustrated. I will wait for recommendations. Thank you. Vuzor (talk) 02:06, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: I don't have much to say in response other than Vuzor, in my assessment, simply doesn't like having his prose and content changed or challenged. Strangely, just a few days ago he placed an apology on my talk page for past disagreements we'd had and said he appreciated my help. He further stated he hoped there were no hard feelings between us. Then only a few days later, we end up here and everything he said about no hard feelings is history. It is, however, a good example of his passive-aggressive communication style with me over the last year. So passive-aggressive that I have seriously wondered if Vuzor isn't a User Name for two people, because he can be complimentary and cooperative one minute then aggressive, angry, uncooperative and unreasonable the next. My issues with Vuzor's editing have been that he has a tendency to overwrite content, use lofty language, and add extraneous detail and wording. He also has consistently added content that makes articles about music, musicians, and bands read like fan sites. After being angered that I copy edited content he added at Dimensionaut, he opened an RfC at the article talk page where he promptly began to chastise me and bring up old issues from a year back where he perceives I wronged him. The premise of the RfC he opened was supposed to be about content. He chose to abandon that premise from the jump and, instead, began personally attacking and making the RfC about me. Numerous times I reminded him that the RfC was about content and edits, not editors, and asked him to stop. He refused (as evidenced by his comments there). That RfC is still open, by the way. Would coming here without closing the RfC be considered forum shopping? -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 03:13, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

You dropped a link right in the middle of my report here. I've since fixed that. Diff of that can be found here: . A little bit of proofreading may have prevented it. I don't believe there is more to say from me in regards to your comments here. My initial report here, I feel, is itself a response to the text above. User:Winkelvi aimed accusations from the very beginning of that RfC.Vuzor (talk) 05:22, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I didn't look at the history to see who wrote it, but the Sound of Contact article looks awfully promotional to me (and why is there a navigation template associated with a band whose debut album was in May 2013?). Does the name Winkelvi have anything to do with the Winklevii duo? If not, there is a potential for confusion here. 192.249.63.59 (talk) 06:29, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

The promotional tone to Vuzor's editing has been my major concern since he started working on the Sound of Contact article as well as the associated articles. I also asked why there was a navigation template for such a new band, Vuzor threw a tantrum over my questioning of that and I decided to let it go. -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 13:34, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Now this is an outright lie. The only incidents involving the template involved you removing it from member Dave Kerzner's page, citing "the page is about Kerzner, not Sound of Contact" (see here: , , discussion on talk page: ) and then attempting to change the name of one of the tours on the template to something that did not exist (see here: ). When member Dave Kerzner left the band, you removed the template from the page again; I added it back as he was clearly on the template and was important to the band's history. You gave no response. (see: ). There was absolutely no conversation or even an issue about the template's existence, so don't lie about it.Vuzor (talk) 18:16, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Where is this alleged lie in my response? You said it yourself: I gave no respnse. That lack of response was me letting it go, as I stated. -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 18:51, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Your response above: "I also asked why there was a navigation template for such a new band, Vuzor threw a tantrum over my questioning of that and I decided to let it go. -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 18:51, 29 April 2014 (UTC)"... That never happened. The entire "incident" you speak of never occurred. Your statement here at 18:51, 29 April 2014 contains a significant lie.Vuzor (talk) 20:45, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I suppose I could have that incident confused with the all of the other dramatic tantrums you've thrown over me copy editing your content inclusions and removal of blatantly promotional and fan cruft content at Sound of Contact and its associated articles. Nonetheless, my lack of response was simply me moving on and letting it go, as I said, and my recollection remains that you threw a tantrum. There is no intentional "lie" being told. -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 21:03, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Make sure you know what you're talking about. Don't just loosely throw accusations, particularly about incidents that never occurred.Vuzor (talk) 21:20, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I always thought "Winkelvi" was "Winkel the 6th". But I don't see anything problematic about the username, there's a notable difference between "Winkelvi" and "Winklevii". -- Atama頭 15:27, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I can also comment on the Sound of Contact article. Winkelvi did not originally create it, but has done a lot of work on it, including removing a large amount of promotional and/or unsourced information over the article's history. Perhaps it needs improvement but it could be worse than it is. -- Atama頭 15:36, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Comment: I must note that User:Spanglej, a more experienced editor than User:Winkelvi or I, oversaw the initial development of this series of articles. In the case of the article Dimensionaut, administrator User:Boing! said Zebedee also oversaw the intial stages of the article. In an early incident involving the article, User:Winkelvi flagged the article for WP:CSD (speedy deletion); administrator User:Boing! said Zebedee (his user page at the time here: ) removed the flag, citing that User:Winkelvi's criteria were not valid. User:Winkelvi undid User:Boing! said Zebedee's revision. Administrator User:Boing! said Zebedee then told User:Winkelvi: "When a speedy deletion request has been declined, it must not be put back - go for WP:AFD if you think it needs deletion." This can be seen here: , . To quell this controversy, User:Boing! said Zebedee and I decided to move the page's development to my user sandbox: . Throughout the article's development, User:Boing! said Zebedee vetoed several of User:Winkelvi's revisions: , . As a measure of WP:GOODFAITH and per User:Boing! said Zebedee's suggestion, I asked for reviews of the page before User:Boing! said Zebedee moved the page to Dimensionaut: . These articles were created with the supervision of more experienced editors.

As cited in the initial report here, User:Spanglej was later attacked by User:Winkelvi: .

"Editors who aren't getting their way and start edit warring love to use the excuse: "we need consensus in order to make changes". Never expected an experienced editor like you to use such a lame, bullshit excuse and engage in edit warring. Aren't you a part of the Misplaced Pages kindness campaign or olive branch society or something like that? So much for expectations and thinking too highly of someone based on their experience and user page trinkets. -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 00:11, 7 June 2013 (UTC)"

In another instance :

"Span, your comments started out by quoting me, not by addressing the article. That says you were more interested in me than giving constructive criticism to anything else on this talk page. Claiming I'm "hounding" (which you've disguised by saying "ongoing hostility" instead) is complete bullshit. If the nature of the model is founded on trust, then Vuzor has damaged that trust over and over with the "community". But please, do continue to enable him and send the message that he's justified and the victim here. -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 11:09, 5 June 2013 (UTC)"

Vuzor (talk) 21:15, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Spanglej wasn't overseeing anything. She was there just like I was, just like Vuzor was. Boing wasn't overseeing anything, either. He was just there like the rest of us. As far as the speedy deletion issue, I have no idea why it's being brought up, why Vuzor thinks it has any bearing on anything. It was a simple misunderstanding on my part regarding procedure, nothing more. Boing didn't have an issue with it, we worked it out immediately, that was all there was to it. And just for the record and complete disclosure: that article written by Vuzor ended up being deleted because it was about a music album by Sound of Contact that had not yet been released (the article was put up again about a month later). Interesting how Vuzor left that out while retelling his version of the drama. But, Vuzor is portraying it all dramatically for what purpose? And who cares if Boing "vetoed" several of my revisions? That's what cooperative editing is about. There was no "supervision" or oversight occurring as Vuzor claims. His need to re-hash stuff that's nearly a year old is puzzling to me, especially when you consider he left the following on my talk page ten days ago: "Hi, Winkelvi. I apologize for some of the past disagreements we've had, and I'd very much like to say I value your opinion and appreciate your help. Hopefully there are no hard feelings between us." found here: -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 21:27, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Boing's vetoing of your revisions has everything to do with your approach to these articles. Spanglej's attempt to mediate (as cited in ) was met with your hostile response. When I spoke to you regarding how we can collaborate with one another and work things out, you responded (see here: ):

"Your continual lecturing is truly tedious and boring. I'm sure you will now cite AGF and CIVIL, but I really don't care. Please move on. Again, have a nice day (and please walk away from the horse that's now stinking and becoming a fly-farm). -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 17:23, 10 September 2013 (UTC)"

And here is another incident in which User:Winkelvi refused to work with User:Spanglej and I (see: ):

You have just threatened me with the three-revert rule on my talk page, Winkelvi. I count five reverts from you within the past twenty-four hours, reverting the edits of multiple editors. That's almost twice the violation. You've already broken the rule and tried to control the way the page is being edited, reverting not only my edits by Spanglej's. Your hypocrisy and authoritarian approach continue to amaze me. If I were to revert your edit myself, I would be breaking the three-edit rule, but considering you have consciously broken that rule and almost doubled it, I am reporting this; you had the presence of mind to have that link while reverting my edits and had already broken the rule; while we could have waited for a fourth user to make a decision (after all, two users disagreeing with you isn't enough) so you wouldn't have edited a fifth time, you edited anyway, consciously challenging the rule a fifth time just moments before you had the nerve to threaten me with a hypocritical three-revert warning. Vuzor (talk) 06:45, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

I can't believe we are even having this conversation, Winkelvi. A band release an album and then immediately go on tour and you are disputing that the album and the tour are related. In no way are the details of a tour promotional puff. You'd be hard pressed to find an article about any major band or album that doesn't mention its tour. True Blue (Madonna album) (GA), I Am... Sasha Fierce (GA), Achtung Baby (FA), OK Computer (FA), Janet Jackson's Rhythm Nation 1814 (GA), (What's the Story) Morning Glory? (GA), Daydream (Mariah Carey album) (GA). I think you have somehow got hold of entirely the wrong end of the stick about Misplaced Pages editing. It's supposed to be collaborative, mutually supportive, fun and consensus-based. As the admin said on your page: " I don't see anywhere that you got consensus for this change." You wrote on my page "Edit warriors and those with battleground mentality LOVE to use the excuse: there's no consensus. That excuse is total bullshit." Consensus-based collaboration is not bullshit, the foundation of how Misplaced Pages works. Misplaced Pages:Consensus says "Consensus refers to the primary way decisions are made on Misplaced Pages, and it is accepted as the best method to achieve our goals". It's not a figment of my imagination. Civility and respect for other editors is also one of the five pillars of the community. Span (talk) 19:16, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't give a crap what you personally believe, look at the band's own website and you will see that the tour isn't for promoting the album. There are scores of other bands who will be performing, and there is nothing on their website that states it is an album promoting tour. NOTHING. Everything Vuzor has come up with to make that conclusion is based on assumption, original research, and synthesis. Those are the facts. Your personal opinion of me or anything else is irrellevant. -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 00:50, 27 June 2013 (UTC)''

These are further examples of User:Winkelvi's conduct. Here is an instance of User:Winkelvi removing acceptable sources, only to have them replaced by a more experienced editor (see: , . And here is User:Spanglej specifically advising User:Winkelvi and I that primary sources are acceptable, and clearly supervising the process (see: ).Vuzor (talk) 22:14, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Vuzor is not only borderline forum-shopping with this report, he's now canvassing for it: , . I still fail to see and understand where Vuzor thinks his walls of text and examples are leading us. Can you say "stale" in regard to all of these things, nearly a year old? Whatever might be done by an administrator in regard to Vuzor's year-old butt-hurt over all of this ancient history would be punitive, not preventative at this point. Someone asked him yesterday right after he filed this report: what do you want administrators to do? I think it's still a valid question. Valid, because it seems clear (to me, at least) that Vuzor needs vindication, he needs me to be "punished", in spite of the message he left me 10 days ago that said he is sorry for our past disagreements, values my opinion, appreciates my help, and hopes there are no hard feelings between us. At this point, I'm pretty much done with responding to the drama Vuzor is putting up here because none of it seems to have any point that would serve the community positively. I have to wonder how much longer it will go on. -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 22:42, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Per WP:AN/I, as the two users have both been named in this thread, I believed it was only right to notify them that they have been discussed here. There is no expectation from me for them to participate. It was only a gesture of good will so as not to speak of incidents involving them without their knowledge (in my general opinion, speaking behind the backs of others is often wrong to do, and in this case there is no reason to withhold that knowledge from them).

My message to you at 07:46 on April 19, 2014 was a gesture of good will in hopes that you would become more willing to work together and move beyond our past differences (see: ). I provided an apology when I did not need to (and perhaps foolishly so). It was an act of WP:DGF ("encourage others to assume good faith by demonstrating your own good faith"). The fact you have cited that now here for the complete opposite purpose is disappointing.Vuzor (talk) 03:30, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Vuzor is correct, notifying someone neutrally (with a template) when they've been mentioned on ANI is not canvassing. There is no violation, if anything it's polite to do so. -- Atama頭 18:50, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

I appreciate your attempt to clarify, Atama. That's not how I read the noticeboard notification policy nor policy on canvassing, but I'll take your word for it. -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 20:14, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Update (1 May 2014): It appears User:Winkelvi removed an entire section of content on Simon Collins that was recently approved in a Request for Comment session. The edit history can be seen here: . One of the revisions can be seen here: . All of the content in question was approved in an RfC on that article's talk page last month (see: ). This goes completely against the consensus reached in the RfC. This user even added a "citation needed" template when no such template was required. This is unacceptable behavior and could perhaps be considered vandalism at this point.Vuzor (talk) 04:38, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

User:Winkelvi has now reverted my reversion of that user's vandalism (see: ). The comment that user has left is: "Reverted 2 edits by Vuzor (talk): No, the content I removed wasn't "approved" and consensus can change. (TW))" This is ridiculous, considering the content was approved. Consensus has not changed, so the excuse that "consensus can change" is complete nonsense. This has become ridiculous. I have asked in my comment that User:Winkelvi explain his or her reasoning for this, and I have warned the user not to break WP:3RR. If the user breaks this rule, I will open a case in the Edit Warring noticeboard as this appears as that would suggest a very active dispute happening. This type of behavior is absolutely unacceptable.Vuzor (talk) 04:38, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

A "whole section of content" was not removed. A portion of irrelevant and gossipy, tabloid-like content was removed. It was not recently "approved", an editor thought it was fine months ago. Consensus changes, and what I removed is most definitely not pertinent to Collins', but more pertinent to his father, and should not be in the Simon Collins article. The other portions edited and taken out of the article were copyedited and removed due to irrelevance, lofty language, over-stating, and un-encyclopedic material. Some of it was definite puffery, bordering on peacocking. In no way are my edits to this article (or any article I edit) "vandalism". Vuzor, however, is now edit warring and has twice reverted every single edit wholesale that I made at the article over the last hour. I have placed and edit warring warning template on his talk page: He has reverted a total of three times at the article: (1) ; (2) ; (3) . Vuzor, Atama stated a few days ago that I had removed a lot of promotional content from Sound of Contact, that's what I did with Simon Collins tonight, as well. An IP user stated the same. No one other than you has been anxious to do anything to this report over three days now. That should send a message to you about anyone caring about this report. And frankly, I'm surprised you decided to exhibit edit warring behavior in such a big way at the Collins article while this report is still here. But, edit war you did, and you can't take it back now. -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 04:46, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

• Forum Shopping Vuzor is now most certainly forum shopping. He just filed a frivilous 3RR on me. I only reverted once, as I stated above, he reverted three times. 3RR report here: -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 05:52, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

What you state to be "puffery" has, in every case cited here, been deemed by others to be not puffery. Editors User:Boing! said Zebedee, User:Spanglej and others have reverted your edits for that reason. There can be other opinions than yours, which is the reason for the RfC. Consensus ruled against that opinion. Performing a bulk removal of that content after the decision was made is vandalism. The discussion in the RfC pertaining to this content is as follows:

"Comment. On a first pass view my take is that most of it should be used, perhaps reworked a bit. A good article would include items that arguably can be seen as trivial by others. Certainly items tied to his life as a music performer is relevant. The lawsuit statement should be aligned with a follow-up as to what happened with it, dismissed, settled, etc. Early life sections give readers buy in so that can understand where a notable person came from. I don't particularly care what schools someone went to but Misplaced Pages readers apparently do. Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:42, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Comment. I think the following tells the story: WP:LEAD The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies. The notability of the article's subject is usually established in the first few sentences. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources. Apart from trivial basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article. I don't like one sentence leads, especially for an online encyclopedia. There should be a brief mention in the lead for each section in the main body of the article. Also, I recently went through a very trying ordeal because I changed the lead of a BLP to read, British-born. I was called a racist and a bigot. Go figure. Atsme ☯ talk 15:13, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Comment purely looking at the version linked above and nothing else here (including preceding comments) I would recommend losing the lost court battle and associated information. Actually that's the only part, everything else seemed relevant to the biography. AIRcorn (talk) 07:35, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Comnent. Thank you for your input. I have reworked the court battle information as Sportfan5000 suggested; please comment if it still does not fit with the article. The lead is something that should be addressed, and unless somebody else gets to it first I'll hopefully have that written as well. Feedback is always welcome. Thanks again. Vuzor (talk) 06:05, 20 April 2014 (UTC) "

"Consensus can change" is not an excuse. It has not. Your second edit to that page today, meanwhile, was a bulk removal of that content. You did not even participate in that discussion after these comments were made nor did you respond to my last comment on that RfC. Reverting all of it without any discussion goes against consensus and goes against the collaborative processes supported by this community. Vuzor (talk) 04:58, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

You overwrote a portion of my last comment here? Vuzor (talk) 05:05, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Not intentionally. It was likely due to an edit conflict. -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 05:18, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

User:Winkelvi has been reported here as a result of the current edit warring conflict: .

• Here's a suggestion - how about the two of you just shut up for a bit if you want someone to actually spend some time looking at this? The longer you go on arguing between yourselves here, the more it's turning into a TLDR wall of text that fewer and fewer people are likely to even bother reading. (And before anyone asks, I don't do this kind of stuff any more so I will not be looking into it or offering any opinions) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:37, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
• I just closed the AN3 report with no violation. It was easy, since the board is for reporting 3RR (or 1RR) violations, and per your own admission there were only 2 reverts. For Winkelvi's benefit, your initial series of edits that removed a lot of information counts as a revert. (I don't subscribe to the "any deletion is a revert" philosophy that seems to be a recent trend, but you removed content that was very recently added by Vuzor, and WP:3RR makes it clear that doing so is a revert.) Regardless, that only makes 2 reverts by each editor. A serious edit war that needs to stop but nothing to block anyone over (and any blocking would be equally applied to both editors).

Boing! said Zebedee was correct, you need to stop sniping at each other. This boils down to a content dispute and should be handled as such. This should be hashed out on the discussion page of the article if possible. There was an RfC, and while I see there was no formal closure (the template expired and was removed by a bot) the comments should definitely be taken into account when determining a consensus. If you can't come to a decision calmly between the two of you, you should take this to WP:DRN. I can't say, however, that any solid consensus was ever hashed out on the talk page of the article; a few editors did provide input but there was nothing actually agreed to. So I can't say that either of you is violating consensus with your actions. But you need to stop attacking each other over this. -- Atama頭 16:01, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to sew this up, Atama. Right away after this report was filed I knew the reporting editor was likely to go overboard and inundate the report with examples, old beefs, and walls of text. My initial response was intended to be my only response. That said, the more Vuzor put up that was exaggeration and over-dramatization with things uncomplimentary to him conveniently left out, the more I realized I would be forced to put up some kind of response. This is due to having seen many noticeboard complaints and issues go horribly bad for the accused when administrators didn't look deep enough into what was being claimed to verify it's validity.

I have no issue working with Vuzor if he actually tries to work with me. But, typically, his problem at the articles he works on is about not truly listening to others who have ideas or vision for articles that differ from his own. He seems to truly hate having his lengthy and over-written, promotional prose copy edited, changed completely, or removed. He seems to get emotionally tied to his pet articles - and every article he edits becomes a pet article. Looking at his edit history, you can see that he almost fixates on types of articles or a particular article and its associated articles. Everything becomes a battle with him. He makes editing a chore rather than a cooperative effort. There's a reason why no one comments on his RfCs and noticeboard reports. I'll leave it to you to conclude why. As far as the 3RR report he filed, his reverts were obviously WP:IDLI and out of anger. Rather than just reverting content the previous RfC was about, he reverted everything I had copy edited in one sweep. Not once, but twice. The fact remains that what he reverted back was edit warring behavior, in spite of the decision made at the 3RR noticeboard. Further, he wants me punished and he wants me out of his way, precisely why he immediately asked for a topic ban at the top of this report.

I want to work with him, but he makes it nearly impossible with his rigid interpretation of policy and guidelines in addition to his pettifogging, wikilawyering, and his refusal to understand Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a promotional tool and fan site for his favorite bands and musicians. Not to mention his inability to allow editors he sees as flawed to change anything he has written. Based on how he escalated each complaint about me over the last few days and keeps lists of perceived wrongs handy, I just don't see him changing or starting to work cooperatively with me at these articles anytime soon. Because he takes removal of content or changes to content he's added personally, things will not change until he stops being emotionally connected to his edits. Until that changes, nothing in Vuzor's editing, cooperative editing, and reverting habits will improve. Even so, I will continue to try to work with him. -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 16:28, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Rigid interpretation of guidelines and policy? In fact, it's been the exact opposite. I've been willing to work with you on many occasions; as User:Spanglej noted, you have focused far too much on parts of the MOS you deem non-negotiable (see: ): "I can't believe we are even having this conversation, Winkelvi... I think you have somehow got hold of entirely the wrong end of the stick about Misplaced Pages editing. It's supposed to be collaborative, mutually supportive, fun and consensus-based. As the admin said on your page: " I don't see anywhere that you got consensus for this change." You wrote on my page "Edit warriors and those with battleground mentality LOVE to use the excuse: there's no consensus. That excuse is total bullshit." Consensus-based collaboration is not bullshit, the foundation of how Misplaced Pages works. Misplaced Pages:Consensus says "Consensus refers to the primary way decisions are made on Misplaced Pages, and it is accepted as the best method to achieve our goals". It's not a figment of my imagination. Civility and respect for other editors is also one of the five pillars of the community. Span (talk) 19:16, 26 June 2013 (UTC)"

Even here you lightly criticized Atama for saying something you disagreed with: "That's not how I read the noticeboard notification policy nor policy on canvassing, but I'll take your word for it. -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 20:14, 30 April 2014 (UTC)"). You have cast aside any apparent desire for compromise or collaboration. Your entire spiel here is an attack on me rather than a proposed solution -- also, you have just done a bulk reversion of the Simon Collins article again, which counts now as three reverts within the past seventeen hours (see: , , ). This is the article you were reported for on the Edit Warring noticeboard earlier today. In fact, more content has been deleted now in bulk than in the original reversion seventeen hours ago. You have actually gutted the entire article at this point; your comment on the talk page insists we negotiate, but it appears we both have opposite stances on this issue. Shall we bring up another RfC or will you complain about it? At this point, there are becoming fewer and fewer solutions because of your unwillingness to reason with other editors.

My proposal to you is that additions be accepted initially unless the edit is clear vandalism. All of the content you have disputed has been deemed fine by others. If you feel so strongly that the content there does not belong or that it is undeniably out of place, call an RfC for its removal. If the content is not adequate enough to remain, hypothetically other editors will agree with your opinion and remove that content. Clearly, most of the content you have disputed has been deemed worthy of being kept in the articles, so unless you feel others will agree with you, it would not be worth removing. This method is founded on compromise, acceptance, fairness, and prompts editors to ask "is this really unacceptable to have on the page" before removing everything that was added. I have proposed this to you before; you have shot it down. Reconsider, as this might be the best solution we have. Preventing every addition and starting edit wars every time is absurd. The content you have disputed has, in every case, been deemed worth keeping by others. It has become a ridiculous process to continually dispute this content with you even after approval of it on RfCs. As of now, you are still edit warring over content that other users have agreed is fine to keep. If you feel the content needs to be removed, then consensus must be reached to remove it. Vuzor (talk) 20:51, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

No, I'm not edit warring, I'm attempting to compromise by starting a discussion on the talk page and putting back in the good edits I made on the article. Further, it was never two reversions from me to begin with, just one. The latest is only the second, and not for the sake of edit warring, but to restore the good edits I made that you reverted completely without consideration for the article. And, no, there was no "additional material" "erased" from the page as you just claimed at the 3RR noticeboard. Nothing is being sorted out at this noticeboard as you also claimed at 3RR. Other than officially closing this out, it's over with, too, just like at 3RR. A discussion has been started on the article's talk page. Please put on your big boy pants, comment at the article talk page, work toward a solution, and drop the stick, Vuzor. Your battleground mentality is totally fucking annoying and counterproductive. -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 21:14, 2 May 2014 (UTC) -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 21:34, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Atama and I counted two reversions before the one last hour: "For Winkelvi's benefit, your initial series of edits that removed a lot of information counts as a revert. (I don't subscribe to the "any deletion is a revert" philosophy that seems to be a recent trend, but you removed content that was very recently added by Vuzor, and WP:3RR makes it clear that doing so is a revert.) Regardless, that only makes 2 reverts by each editor. A serious edit war that needs to stop but nothing to block anyone over (and any blocking would be equally applied to both editors)... -- Atama頭 16:01, 2 May 2014 (UTC)". Your initial bulk removal of content I added a few days ago is a reversion, especially considering comments on the RfC supported keeping it there. Your most recent reversion (see: at 20:13, 2 May 2014‎) is the third reversion in a span of seventeen hours, occurring only five hours after the Edit Warring report was closed. I don't have a battleground mentality; I have proposed a solution and am waiting for a response to it. Reverting the article again while we are discussing there here is an instance of Misplaced Pages:Assume bad faith. Also, until we have decided on a resolution or an administrator has decided so, this discussion is not over. Unless you are expressing that you are simply unwilling to negotiate, this should be resolved. Otherwise, this time-wasting dispute over every addition will very likely never end. Vuzor (talk) 21:34, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

That is not what Atama said. He said you came to 3RR with a claim of two reverts and two reverts doesn't equal the three required for the 3RR noticeboard. And there was NEVER a consensus at the article for that particular block of content. ONE editor said to keep it, two others said not to keep it, and no acutal consensus was sought nor agreed upon. Obviously I'm not willing to negotiate since I started a discussion at the article talk page. This time wasting dispute is all on you. You have wasted time and bandwidth here and at 3RR. Stop it and go to the article talk page like Atama suggested. I will no longer discuss this with you here, only at the article talk page like adults and cooperative editors should. As I've said to you previously: grow the fuck up. -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 21:47, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm closing this, this is nothing more than drama-mongering from the IP, including unnecessary reposting of user talk page comments, and the COIN thread is still new (I plan to participate there). -- Atama頭 13:14, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I moved this here to let someone more experienced have a look at this. A new editor is being thrown to the wolves in my opinion. The experienced editor is very aggressive towards the new editor. Attacking new editors only discourages them. It violates the no bite of new comers and assume good faith. Because of this behavior on the parts of some editors I myself will never become a registered editor. I honestly do not know all the policies and procedures but I know when someone is being an ass. What can be done is up to you more experienced administrators. Thanks 172.56.11.196 (talk) 05:36, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

This clearly relates to WP:COIN#Multiple editors related to U of SD School of Law. Dougweller (talk) 09:03, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Edit Warring at Frank Pommersheim

Your recent editing history at Frank Pommersheim shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

To avoid being blocked, instead of reverting please consider using the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. See BRD for how this is done. You can post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection. - 172.56.11.196 (talk) 04:35, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

I am well aware of the 3RR and have come no where close to it on that article. EvergreenFir (talk) 04:37, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

I will let the evidence speak for itself; Also note it does not require 3R's to edit war.

Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Frank_Pommersheim&oldid=606280411 @ 04:18 29 APR 2014 Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Frank_Pommersheim&oldid=606349505 @ 16:25 29 APR 2014 Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Frank_Pommersheim&oldid=606427474 03:41 30 APR 2014 Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Frank_Pommersheim&oldid=606427517 03:42 30 APR 2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.56.11.196 (talk) 04:50, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

@172.56.11.196: You need to read WP:3RR. EvergreenFir has done one revert and one removal of an unsourced item. The first was adding a speedy deletion tag (not a revert). The second was a revert. The third added tags (not a revert), the fourth removed an unsourced claim with significant wp:puffery. I don't see a 3RR issue. Jim1138 (talk) 04:59, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes you are correct the first one was a speedy delete on an article less than 2 hours old that was being worked on by a new editor. See WP:BITE The subject is notable and due diligence was not performed. He then started a COI on the new editor 5 minutes after nominating the article for speedy delete. Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Nativecultnlaw#Notice_of_Conflict_of_interest_noticeboard_discussion Scroll up to see Speedy delete. Then 12 hours later he reverted 5 edits of the same new editor on an article he wanted deleted. ??? Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Frank_Pommersheim&direction=next&oldid=606292739 He then was shot down for speedy delete by User_talk:Y. He then reverted here: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Frank_Pommersheim&direction=next&oldid=606427246 If this was the only edit it would not be an issue. But it could appear to the new editor or a reasonable outsider that he is being stalked and harrassed. 172.56.11.196 (talk) 05:23, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

The CSD was rightfully declined but EvergreenFir has just as much right as anyone else to revert unsourced and weakly sourced content and point out potential issues with the article. No stalking, no harassment, no need to bring this to ANI. --NeilN 05:49, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@GiantSnowman: I wanted an explanation in the edit summary itself, and nothing less. None of my edits qualify for appropriate usage of unexplained rollback, and neither are yours. "My master, Annatar the Great, bids thee " 22:16, 1 May 2014 (UTC)