Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:27, 26 June 2006

Please sign your comments using four tildes (~~~~). If you're new to Misplaced Pages, please see Welcome to Misplaced Pages and frequently asked questions. I will reply to messages left here below your comment, not on your talk page. Please do not reply to archived messages, but instead create a new topic on the main talk page. Before commenting on this page please read WP:NUT, WP:AGF and WP:WORLD. Please add new discussions by clicking here. For admin stuff please see: The Wrong Version when asking for changes on pages protected due to edit warring. WP:BLOCK before emailing requesting to be unblocked, and remember to give me your IP if 'autoblocked'. WP:CSD when requesting something be speedy (un)deleted. Thanks! Ian13 Archives (in blocks of 30) Archive 1 (31 October 2005 - 23 December 2005) Archive 2 (23 December 2005 - 31 December 2005) Archive 3 (31 December 2005 - 16 January 2006) Archive 4 (18 January 2005 - 3 March 2006) Archive 5 (3 March 2005 - 18 April 2006) Archive 6 (22 April 2005 - 26 May 2006) Archive 7 (26 May 2005 - 7 June 2006)

Good Faith

I just want to know why, in all the rants that Midgely has made and insults, you never inserted WP:AGF in the discussion. He was warned on his talk page (which he has since deleted) but nobody did to him what you just did to Gfwesq. If Midgely some kind of icon on Wiki? Or are admins just afraid to tangle with him? Either way, this one sided and selective insertion of tags is NOT good faith.MollyBloom 16:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

(the above message has since been edited by the poster, so my reply is to an old version) I am not selectively inserting things anywhere. Posting comments about people publically is not really in the spirit of Misplaced Pages. I can't and don't however have time to warn everyone on Misplaced Pages. Think of police, not everyone gets caught, but that doesn't mean those that do should not be delt with. If you were to provide me with diffs, then I will take a look. Ian13/talk 16:41, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, then would you post the same comment where Midgely recommended banning me from editing all breast impant articles (if it is still there, which It may not be) or JFW's "VOTE" that I be censured for WP:Point? That is still there, where I moved it to the talk pages.

Diff? Ian13/talk 17:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, would you please be a little more cognizant of furture such actions by Midgely? The mediator removed some of what Midgely wrote, and recommended I take the case furhter to arbitration to prevent him from continuing accusations and incivility. I pointed out in my mediation complaint that I explained that administrators involved in this Rfd have not seen fit to stop the abuse.

Fair enough about examples. I believe what Midgely had initially written was removed, but I will have to check. I will show you Ian's comment.MollyBloom 17:33, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

You can still provide diffs. Please see here. You are able to give a diff whether it exists on the current page or not. Ian13/talk 17:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Jgwlaw

I will try again. For some reason, what I had tried to post here didn't 'stick'. Hopefully this is sufficient to illustrate what I mean. No comment was made to any of these by an administrator.

In fact, in an interest of fairness, I request that you address each of these, on the page where they are posted, as you did for me.

1. Midgley's new 'vote' on the first page, that links to his really egregious statement accusing me of removing his vote (which you corrected but now he still links to) and launching a diatribe: My earlier vote was removed. here it is. It wasn't the first removal from this afd. It is too tedious to pick through the history to find who removed it and when and it is undoubtedly the case that they believed they were acting for the best. The vote? After a comment and observing and partly because of the processes here, it was Strong keep. Midgley 20:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Please look at this because he links to his worst diatribe. This is on the front page.

"undoubtedly the case that they believed they were acting for the best" - looks in reasonably good faith to me. Ian13/talk 19:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

2. Midgley's original "vote" on the RFD (which was never removed, but moved to the discussion page and is still there) and Strong keep partly becuase this is a clear attempt to subvert WP procedures and norms, partly because to delete one article in furtherance of an agenda would encourage further depredations, and partly because assertions that someone is not notable becuase they are not in the newspapers but in peer-reviewed journals should not be supported. I suggest that an RFC on MollyBoom's activities related to breast implants and now this afd should be called and that a ban on editing any article related to plastic surgery would be appropriate and improve the quality of the WP. Midgley 12:47, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I think you have to understand he may have been annoyed that this was infact posted on a public forum... The call for a ban on editing was uncalled for, but I do think he is trying to do this for the good of Misplaced Pages, however it is something which would be better addressed at the RfC he calls for or ArbCom. Ian13/talk 19:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

3. Midgley's doctor friend Jfw's 'vote' to 'censure' me that was on the front page. </br? JFW wrote: Censure Molly for using AFD to WP:POINT. JFW |&nbsp Argument ad hominum is no argument. Take it elsewhere. This is an Rfd, and not a lobby against an individual.MollyBloom 02:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC) This was on the front page as part of the 'keep' vote, he added a 'Molly' vote. If this is not egregious, I don't know what is.

Well, still not a diff, so I can't verify this... Also the lack of context makes this hard to interpret. Ian13/talk 19:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

This is my response: Since when is this a lobby for censuring Molly or lobbying against a person? This is an Rfd, not a personal attack forum. Or am I wrong? It seems that pages and pages of venom are spewed here without any intervention whatsoever by admins. Is this Wikopedia style? Please help me understand, because no legitimate organization would condone or allow this type of conduct.MollyBloom 02:18, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

(its an AfD infact) Seems a valid point, but 'fighting' back doesn't help. If someone attacks you (or what you believe to have been an attack), then it is usually best to leave it, and let someone unafflicated with you reply (ie, someone who you are not connected with, and is not a part of the discussion). We are also not an organisation, we are a community. Ian13/talk 19:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

And he either inadvertantly or deliberately missed my entire point: It was not a personal attack (in what way did I attack you?) Instead, I wish you'd stop attacking every keep vote. Also, I'm voting as a Wikipedian here; admins have no special powers when voting on AFD and should not receive different treatment for this reason. JFW | T@lk 02:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Perfectly valid, I think. He doesn't believe it to be an attack... Labeling people as attacking you doesn't usually make their day. He also believes you are forcing everyone to your POV and that you shouldn't treat others differently because of what opinion they hold. Ian13/talk 19:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

So I tried to explain it, with great civility, which is more than I can say for this man:
Maybe you really didn't understand. I did not challenge or criticize your 'keep' vote. What I criticized was your "Molly" vote. That is inappropriate on the Rfd. If you have a problem with me, take it elsewhere. "Molly" censure is not a vote on the Rfd. Frankly, I no longer care what happ;ens to the article. I am sick of the senseless warring and insult hurling that has nothing to do wtih the Rfd. It continues unabated without anyone stopping it. I will delete any further personal attacks since me. THis is not professional, appropriate and if this is Wikopedian, then I want no part of it.MollyBloom 03:19, 7 June 2006 (UTC) If anything, JFW, as an administrator, you would be more helpful if you would help establish civility here.MollyBloom 03:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC

See, some may see that as incivil, in how you address how others treat you. I think you should keep away from this debate as I have said before, and so have others. Really. Ian13/talk 19:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I will address anything which needs addressing, when I am able to address it. Please try not to make such demands. I still think you may be better off trying to contact one of the other 800 admins who have 'neglected' to do anything... Ian13/talk 19:03, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Please also note my above comments are comments only. I still advise you try and get an external bosy to look over and assist you... I am also trying to comment from the oposite POV so I can try and highlight alternative views. Ian13/talk 19:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I was pointing out that you found time to comment on both me and Gfwesq,but not on Midgely, ever, on the pages. This does look selective. Here is a new comment from Midgely, where he is now swearing. You asked for examples, I gave you examples. now you don;'t want them? Anyway, I do understand you are in finals....but please don't make any comments if you don't balance them. Thanks!

I have not left him any notes, becuase I feel there is little to be noted, and yes, the flood of emails/messages does slightly bring me to your attention. I wan't examples, but I will not continue to ask for diffs and be ignored. Ian13/talk 19:59, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I have filed a formal compaint against Midgely, and the mediator said that he thinks I should take it to arbitration, as Midgely doens't seem to be stopping this. Also, he deleted some of what Midgely wrote.MollyBloom 19:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Right, then take it to arbitration if you so wish. As I have said, I don't think they would accept it. For one thing, avenues to resolve it haven't been completed, ie RfC, mediation... Ian13/talk 19:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

For th purpose of peace and quite let us agree that whatever it was that happened, before it my vote was here on this page where it could be counted, and after it happened my vote was nt here, not on this page, not where it could be counted. If it is a matter of enormous significance to anyone that this not be described as "deleted" then let us call it "accidently removed". And just above, is a note made by me saying so, and putting it back, and pointing to where it was originally added, and by the way, mentioning the tedium of picking through to find the no doubt benign explanation. Now close the damn thing and stop refactoring the past. Midgley 18:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC) MollyBloom 19:44, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I hardly see that as swearing. And I think he is trying to raise that he thinks you are lingering and effectively trying to pick everything apart (and calling for action to be taken against him...). I advise you to move on, and try and comprimise with him, rather than prolong a dispute. Ian13/talk 19:59, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

damn is swearing, according to the dictionary. Ian, have you asked him to move on also? I am just asking, because I believe it is noteworthy to find out. Also, I gave you examples of where he threatened to ban etc etc etc. You asked for the examples, I provided them, and you ignored them.MollyBloom 20:25, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I will copy what I said before: "Well, still not a diff, so I can't verify this... Also the lack of context makes this hard to interpret." People are also usually only blocked for swearing if it is particulary obscene, or if it is directed at an editor (ie, to insult them). Ian13/talk 09:13, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Your comment on my mediation page

Actually, you did initially (and inadvertantly) move Midgley's vote/comment. Brainer, I believe, did it a second time. Here is your statement:

Note: Right, that diff shows it moved down, if you scrool down, you see it reappears, it seems that just a linebreak was added. Unfortunatly, this comment did manage to vanish when I moved a rather big chunk to the discussion page (since it wasn't all directly relevent), unfortunatly, I wrongly took that comment with it. Ian13/talk 14:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Ian, I don;t have anything against you. IN fact, I hope that you do study for your exams. I jsut hope you will take the comments I made in good faith, and try to be a little more balanced in your comments/admonitions. I actually do appreciate the help you provided me in creating the Rfd. MollyBloom 20:25, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't have anything against you either, but it seems that my moving of stuff was not what lead to it being moved, but bainer's was. I noted this and gave a different diff. Please don't presume that I have anything against you. Ian13/talk 09:11, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Hopefully, I have fixed this on the page now. Ian13/talk 09:16, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Kind of. It would have been better to not defend Midgely. That was not warranted, in your correction of your mistake. The discussion and mediation is closed, for all practical purposes. Also, I hope you refrain from making comments on the GPatrick Maxwell page to me or to Gfwesq. You asked for examples (above) when I suggested that you were not being even-handed, I gave them to you, and you ignroed them. If you can't be even-handed, then please don't continue in this issue.MollyBloom 21:13, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

For a final time: you have not provided diffs, and I cannot verify your claims. Ian13/talk 16:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

IF you read above, there are examples of exactly the same thing you cited me for. But you know Ian, I don't want to continue this. It's not worth it. I don't think you see or want to see, and at this point, I don't care. Good luck on your exams!MollyBloom 16:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Right.... happy editing then. Ian13/talk 17:38, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

User talk:NikoSilver/Signature shop#Ian13...

...is waiting for your instructions. Kindly throw in your preferable colour or other details too! :NikoSilver: 12:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

THanks! Ian13/talk 13:06, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Done (I think) :-) :NikoSilver: 13:56, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

More...:NikoSilver: 13:22, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

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Revolutionary Socialism

ALright thanks, ill try rewriting it if it doesnt get deleted soon.--Zhukov 11:47, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

• I wasnt aware that you couldnt delete your own material, thats what iwas trying to do by blanking it, i wont do it again. Simple mistake. Zhukov 19:29, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
  • I know, I know, it's just because it was a warning of 3RR... Ian¹³/t 21:29, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Mustafa Kemal Atatürk

It's not me, but user :NikoSilver: continuously insisting on vandalism on talk page of Kemal Atatürk. His last comment can be considered as a repeated vandalism in several cases, taken from Misplaced Pages official policy:

Vandalism

• Attention-seeking vandalism

Adding insults, using offensive usernames, replacing articles with jokes etc.

Here, calling the leader of Turks and one of the most significant figures in the world history as a murderer based on biased and falsified information is not a comment but is a direct insult to me and to any Turkish citizen.

• Vandalism

Vandalism is any addition, deletion, or change to content made in a deliberate attempt to reduce the quality of the encyclopedia.

The last comment of NikoSilver on the talk page is more than reducing the quality of the encyclopedia with irrelevancy, it is an offense as stated above.

Personal Attacks

• Personal Attack

Personal attacks are the parts of a comment which can be considered personally offensive and which have no relevant factual content.

Considering the place of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk in the hearts of the Turks, any attack made to him or his work can as well be considered a personal attack to any Turkish citizen (not relevant but likely attacking one's religious beliefs). It is also clear that the comment has no relevant factual content as well as being completely irrelevant with the subject topic of discussion (moving the article) therefore written in an anti-Turkish POV.

What is not Vandalism

• Inaccurate and biased material

Edits that blank all or part of a biography of a living person (in this case comment on the biography of a living person) may not be vandalism, but instead an effort by the subject of the article to remove inaccurate or biased material.

My edit was an attempt to remove an inaccurate and biased as well as irrelevant material in order not to divert the discussion from its original context. It is clearly offensive therefore more will add to those unfortunate li(n)es either by supporting or opposing, making the situation even worse.

• Changing people's comments

Editing signed comments by another user to substantially change their meaning (e.g. turning someone's vote around), except when removing a personal attack.

As stated above, since the quote by NikoSilver can be considered a personal attack, removing that comment from the talk page is certainly can not be considered as vandalism.

• Reverting vandalism.

In accordance with the Misplaced Pages policy it is not considered vandalism to revert edits that are made in the description of vandalism itself. These reverts of vandalism are also exempt from three-revert rule

According to the statements above I will again use my right to remove this personal attack (or insult or offensive, whatever you'd call) directed upon me and upon all Turkish people, in addition to my good-faith of preventing the discussion to divert from its intended purpose. Apart from that I kindly request decisive measures to be taken against user :NikoSilver: about Personal Attacks and Vandalism in direction of the official Misplaced Pages policy.

Best regards -- Kertenkel ebek  08:41, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

PS: Just because I found your name inspiring, I suddenly came up with a simple signature for you. Feel free to (or not to) use any of your preference: «][¹³» OR « //\\ \¹³» --  Kertenkel ebek  09:30, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your message. I was contacting regarding your removal of his/her comments, since removing user comments is not the best way forward on talk page disucssion, and it is better to try and address the issue and even provide sources so you can work together in improving the article. If you have concerns over how they are commenting on the issue, or if they are making personal attacks, I ask that you try and contact the user and come to a personal agreement. Thank you also for the sig suggestions, however I will probably pas on them for now since I try and use 'real' characters rather than nice looking ANSII to help screen readers and make it easily readable, however I value your efforts. :) Ian¹³/t 09:35, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

As a side note, I think the user in question was acting in good faith, and generally guidelines on content (especially for talk pages) is interpretted liberally to help good faith users work together to address issues. I also see personally offencive as offencive to a specific person, and not as part of a belief or support of someone else - however if there is a lack in NPOV in an article, that obviosuly has to be addressed. I think the thing about biographies is aimed more at the article itself, since talk pages are not a part of the encyclopedia itself, but a means to improve it. WP:RPA is not very supported, and as it says itself, "Whenever you refactor, do not destroy the context of a conversation". I hope this helps. If an edit was made in good faith as I believe was intended, then it generally is not considered vandalism. Ian¹³/t 09:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Failing to address the issue itself and deleting comments by other users signifies complete inability to respond convincingly. I had all the good will in the world, but I think my patience is failing me with the irrational reactions of Kentenkelebek. I reserve my right to free expression and request mediation and assistance for my comment to stay in the talk. I think that edit-warring about a well-intended comment is a much better example than Foustanella for Misplaced Pages:Lamest edit wars. Now to the issue at hand:

• Massacre happened in Smyrna during his leadership
• This massacre is described also as part of the Pontian Greek Genocide
• There are many more examples for that period
• Nowdays "massacres" and "genocides" are not so often, but see Serbia/Bosnia etc. and see Milosevic
• At that time there was an international shitstorm that partially justified such actions since they were more common.
• Ataturk is argued did not support such actions. Even so, failing to prevent them, however, is to my opinion his responsibility.
• The Turks deny any massacre/genocide as they do with the Armenian Genocide
• Well, I am just not convinced -end of story.

:NikoSilver: 10:24, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

A short Esperanzial update

As you may have gathered, discussions have been raging for about a week on the Esperanza talk page as to the future direction of Esperanza. Some of these are still ongoing and warrant more input (such as the idea to scrap the members list altogether). However, some decisions have been made and the charter has hence been amended. See what happened. Basically, the whole leadership has had a reshuffle, so please review the new, improved charter.

As a result, we are electing 4 people this month. They will replace JoanneB and Pschemp and form a new tranche A, serving until December. Elections will begin on 2006-07-02 and last until 2006-07-09. If you wish to run for a Council position, add your name to the list before 2006-07-02. For more details, see Misplaced Pages:Esperanza/June 2006 elections.

Thanks and kind, Esperanzial regards, —Celestianpower 16:00, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Userpage header

Greetings! I happened across your userpage, and thought your header was exceedingly well made. I am wondering if you'd mind me using the code as a basis for one of my own (change a few things here and there to fit my needs, but keep the overall design). Credit to be placed in the code perhaps? Thanks in advance. — Huntster 03:42, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

No problem atall, all are welcome to make use of it. Good luck! Ian¹³/t 08:49, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks much :D — Huntster 08:55, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Roman Catholics

i'm not accusing you but i think you're a fenian. You are ugly and probably the seventh born in a family. You have probably been molested at some point by a priest. You disgust me. SIEG HEIL! Cicero Dog 20:27, 26 June 2006 (UTC)